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Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: rastalant on June 08, 2001, 03:36:36 PM
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There are also some comparison pics of the PS2 game vs. the XBOX version over at MSXBOX forums.
I am surprised nobody mentioned this sooner:
On the PlayStation 2…Specialize
"It is not at all the same working with the PlayStation 2 and PlayStation. The main thing was just with the simplest thing of just getting triangles up on the screen. Generally this is not a difficult process, but in order to get a high performance triangle (getting the clipping right and getting it to work at the maximum throughput) everybody (other developers) had to go through that work. We didn\'t have the same base to start as we had with the PSOne. You\'re really starting at ground zero with the PlayStation 2-expecially if you were a PlayStation developer because there were so many parts of the hardware to master"
"[The PS2 development library] had a very good low-level description of all the hardware, and then they had a very general high-level description. But in terms of the middle level (as to how all the thing interact)is really where the challenge has been"
"The biggest problem we had (and you\'ve already seen it in other games) is with the aliasing of the polygons. Right now you can really get a lot of polygons, but if you just put them next to each other you get kind of the stepped edges. Its really a challenge to author your assets to make them look good, especially when you\'re not used to dealing with so many polygons. Our artists get excited because they think they can do a car in 10,000 polygons, then you show it onscreen and it\'s all this flickering mess"
"Then they make one more [revision] and it looks a little bit better, another rev and it gets better. Every time they go through they learn how to make things look better and use the polygons more wisely."
"We went through a huge change in performance from where we\'ve started [on the NASCAR engine] until now in terms of trying to get all the processors running in parallel and doing useful work all the time-without it all locking up (laughs)."
"The PlayStation 2\'s graphics unit has this little programmer (a vector unit)inside that can run a little program independent of the main CPU. Maximizing the use of that vector unit is really what it\'s all about. You want to have that guy start generating polygons on its own and this is the sort of optimizations that we definitely can\'t get in the first generation, but in the second generation it greatly improves not only the look, but the speed of the game as well."
"We can do it, but there is a lot of basic work that everyone has to do to get things running. With the PSOne, it was very easy to get things running and then you crank it up to get things faster by writing specialized code. But with the PlayStation 2, you have to specialize from day one and get the architecture right."
On the Xbox…All about the Pixel
"Early on [Microsoft] didn\'t give us a lot of the low-level stuff and they gave us all of the high-level stuff. Unfortunately in this case, we wanted the low-level stuff because the transition from PC to Xbox is fairly easy, so I don\'t need a lot of help. (laughs) It was only recently when we went to the latest Xbox developers conference where they gave us a lot more of the detailed low-level information."
"Microsoft is really adamant about (bringing PC ports to Xbox), and said that they would not approve any title that looks like a PC game."
"The big changeover with Xbox is the NVIDA graphics processor is so much more advanced than the PS2 in terms of how much work it can do on one pixel. The PlayStation 2 is really fast, but it can\'t do a lot of work on a pixel. With the Xbox, you can run a little program to calculate what each little pixel is going to look like. So we write programs that say this little pixel is going to look like this because I can take a part, multiply it by another…you can do a lot of work. Really the Xbox is about trying to create high quality pixels."
"For instance if you have a car on PS2, you draw the car, and if you want an environment map, you draw the environment map. So essentially, you are drawing the car a second time. If you want a damage texture on it, you would draw it a third time. If you want to put a gloss map in it to remove some of the shine, you draw it a fourth time. So you are essentially drawing a car four times."
"On the Xbox, you have the ability to draw these four textures simultaneously, blend them all, and draw the car one time. In other words, you take the base texture, add in the environment map texture, subtract out the gloss texture, and then blend it with the damage texture. So you\'ve got really high-quality pixels that you can do. That\'s the part where some really interesting stuff is going to happen because this is the power that was previously available in the PC, but no one was able to use it yet."
"I must say tat this NVIDIA graphics chip is really amazing. The GeForce II Ultra runs at a similar speed, but this one will have to four textures, and you can run a program that is executed on every vertex and one that runs on every pixel. The power of the pixel is really where the difference in quality is going to come up."
"[Microsoft] is basing it all on the PC API (application programming interface)-the DirectX stuff-so we\'ve seen it all before on PC. Most of our code uses most of this stuff already and then we can really focus on the specialized stuff that the Xbox can do."
Hmmmmmmmmm...interesting stuff here. Good to see xbox is very powerful system, but why can\'t any of there games keep a decent framerate(nfl fever, auzik, project gothem, etc.). Just makes me wonder. What do you guys think of this?
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Well most devs on XBox are not used to streaming data on a constant basis. Even with Xbox\'s 64mb of memory and HD it pales in comparison to a PC which has a graphics board and its own memeory and a PC with its own memory so everything is fully loaded up before a level is played
This is what will keep XBox from shining more brightly in its 1st year. PC developers need to rethink there styles. SUre they know the hardware and the tools, but they have less memory to work with.
Look what Tecmo can do with DOA3, they\'re a console developer and they pumped out the most visually stunning game to date in no time at all. Even though we don\'t know if it has framerate problems cause no one has actually played it.
as for the PS2, its obvious we will see improvements in the PS2 games and they will continually look sharper and better. It interesting to see what generation 5 games look like on the PS2 from the best dev\'s
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Originally posted by ddaryl
as for the PS2, its obvious we will see improvements in the PS2 games and they will continually look sharper and better. It interesting to see what generation 5 games look like on the PS2 from the best dev\'s
yeah thats just what you said awhile ago, that the ps2 would be running at 80 % at its 2-3 gen titles, while the x box would be running at 80% sooner.
i think that the good developers like their job, and so i think they would like to figure out how to work a new console.
and yeah, they (the pc type developers) have to figure out how to run games with less ram. thats why the console developers have the edge while working with the x box.
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Originally posted by Falcon4
yeah thats just what you said awhile ago, that the ps2 would be running at 80 % at its 2-3 gen titles, while the x box would be running at 80% sooner.
i think that the good developers like their job, and so i think they would like to figure out how to work a new console.
and yeah, they (the pc type developers) have to figure out how to run games with less ram. thats why the console developers have the edge while working with the x box.
The reason they would get to 80% with xbox sooner is cause its easier to program for than ps2. Ps2 has a high learning curve so there games should show more improvements in the future. Just look at mgs2, gt3, dmc, silent hill 2, jax and dexter, and twisted metal black.
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Interesting read, thanks for the information. Basically they have come out with all the complaints that developers of launch titles were having. Was this just recently said? are they talking about a current game they ware working on, or were they talking about making Nascar. I would like to know if they are still having this much trouble.
Currently, we know PS2 isnt up as high as 80%, and we know X-Box isnt either. I just want to see both consoles running at 100%, then wwe would truely see some amazing graphics.
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I know the highest percent I heard on the ps2 was mgs2 which I heard was taking up 60% of the systems power. So I wonder what 100% of the ps2 power going to look like.
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I know the highest percent I heard on the ps2 was mgs2 which I heard was taking up 60% of the systems power. So I wonder what 100% of the ps2 power going to look like.
lasty i heard MGS2 was at 50%...J&D is the highest announced so far, they were hoping for about 75% of the PS2\'s potential, but i really doubt that they achieved that high, i think it\'d be aroun 60%...they might though by the time it launches....mmm...21 million polies a second :)
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
lasty i heard MGS2 was at 50%...J&D is the highest announced so far, they were hoping for about 75% of the PS2\'s potential, but i really doubt that they achieved that high, i think it\'d be aroun 60%...they might though by the time it launches....mmm...21 million polies a second :)
Whoa, I didn\'t know J&D was pushing more power than mgs2? I know last time i heard with j & d they wanted the final ploy count to be at 21 million ploys. Can\'t wait for both games to come out.
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Originally posted by raslant
Whoa, I didn\'t know J&D was pushing more power than mgs2? I know last time i heard with j & d they wanted the final ploy count to be at 21 million ploys. Can\'t wait for both games to come out.
yes, although polygons isnt a directindication of power. J&D is currently only doing 19 million polygons a second, by the time its released they plan to have 21 million. The best thing about this game is the fact that it only has ONE load time, after that the ENTIRE world is renderred....awwwwwwwwwlwlwlw, sweet. No redraw point, 60 fps, perfect animation...
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That pretty impressive stuff there.
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lasty i heard MGS2 was at 50%...J&D is the highest announced so far, they were hoping for about 75% of the PS2\'s potential, but i really doubt that they achieved that high, i think it\'d be aroun 60%...
I think they just guess how much of the systems power they are using. One minute they think they are using 50%, then they figure a new way to do something and they realize that they were only using 45%. Stuff like that happens all the time. They won\'t know how much of the ps2\'s power current ps2 games are using until they get further down the road. :cool:
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Originally posted by Kenny--73
I think they just guess how much of the systems power they are using. One minute they think they are using 50%, then they figure a new way to do something and they realize that they were only using 45%. Stuff like that happens all the time. They won\'t know how much of the ps2\'s power current ps2 games are using until they get further down the road. :cool:
well, you know, once again, im just using the numbers the developers themselves are telling everyone
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Originally posted by raslant
The reason they would get to 80% with xbox sooner is cause its easier to program for than ps2. Ps2 has a high learning curve so there games should show more improvements in the future. Just look at mgs2, gt3, dmc, silent hill 2, jax and dexter, and twisted metal black.
i agree!!!
Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
yes, although polygons isnt a directindication of power. J&D is currently only doing 19 million polygons a second, by the time its released they plan to have 21 million. The best thing about this game is the fact that it only has ONE load time, after that the ENTIRE world is renderred....awwwwwwwwwlwlwlw, sweet. No redraw point, 60 fps, perfect animation...
aww, i said that awhile ago didnt I?
and the reason why i think is because sony is giving them some info on how they think the console would do the best.
and to think that is onlly 60%(according to you guys)
jeez.
i wonder what RS is doing on gamecube... anyone know?
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Originally posted by Falcon4
i agree!!!
aww, i said that awhile ago didnt I?
and the reason why i think is because sony is giving them some info on how they think the console would do the best.
and to think that is onlly 60%(according to you guys)
jeez.
i wonder what RS is doing on gamecube... anyone know?
I was thinking about the same thing with how much power RS2 is taking up. Considering they claim the game is pushing 13.2 million per second which is just plain amazing.
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Originally posted by raslant
I was thinking about the same thing with how much power RS2 is taking up. Considering they claim the game is pushing 13.2 million per second which is just plain amazing.
Raslant, when it comes to power, its not the polygons that counts. Its also not the graphical prowess. Look at MGS2. Two third of the power they use from the emotion engine goes purely into the enemy AI. Physics calculations etc. also count when it comes to power.
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who cares how many polys J & D will push? It is all about gameplay. If the gameplay is not better than MGS2, than does it matter that it looks THAT good?
Eric Jacob
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Originally posted by raslant
"Microsoft is really adamant about (bringing PC ports to Xbox), and said that they would not approve any title that looks like a PC game."
Why is Microsoft so opposed to XBox games looking like PC games? I can understand they might think, "XBox titles must NOT look like PC games because we don\'t want people to think this is just a PC in disguise." Maybe that\'s the reason, or maybe not. Do they want XBox titles to look better than PC games, or just different?
I think this could be a weakness if they enforce this rule without exception. There are many great PC titles that definitely have that PC "look," but the gameplay is so great that an XBox port would really be appreciated by those who never happened to buy the PC version, or maybe don\'t have a fast enough PC to run it.
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well said. and it still dosent look that good because it has to render a world, so all the polys are spread out.
and as altered said, the graphics mean almost nothing to me now. all i want are some solid, fun games to play, and so far ps2 is not delivering. but come june 19th( TMB) that may change:D
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Originally posted by AlteredBeast
who cares how many polys J & D will push? It is all about gameplay. If the gameplay is not better than MGS2, than does it matter that it looks THAT good?
Eric Jacob
i was just using J&D as an example, but its gameplay seams promising as well for a platformer
Originally posted by Falcon4
well said. and it still dosent look that good because it has to render a world, so all the polys are spread out.
and as altered said, the graphics mean almost nothing to me now. all i want are some solid, fun games to play, and so far ps2 is not delivering. but come june 19th( TMB) that may change:D
it doesnt matter if it renders the whole world, it makes it much more impresive to look at in motion than any other game that ive seen, espcially running at 60 fps. and being incredibly detailed
and personally, i think the PS2 has delivered with great games, ive had tonnes of fun with the games so far, and the true AAA games are about to be released :D sweet
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Originally posted by Coredweller
Why is Microsoft so opposed to XBox games looking like PC games? I can understand they might think, "XBox titles must NOT look like PC games because we don\'t want people to think this is just a PC in disguise." Maybe that\'s the reason, or maybe not. Do they want XBox titles to look better than PC games, or just different?
I think this could be a weakness if they enforce this rule without exception. There are many great PC titles that definitely have that PC "look," but the gameplay is so great that an XBox port would really be appreciated by those who never happened to buy the PC version, or maybe don\'t have a fast enough PC to run it.
Another problem with Microsoft thinking this is that they will be losing a huge fanbase. The hardcore PC gamers are probably the most excited for the Xbox. This could be their reason to finally accept console gaming world. If Microsoft is trying to keep it as far from PC as possible, this will turn off the hardcore PC gamers.
Originally posted by AlteredBeast
who cares how many polys J & D will push? It is all about gameplay. If the gameplay is not better than MGS2, than does it matter that it looks THAT good?
But how many games are going to be as fun as MGS2? :) A few games will get close, but we probably won\'t see a funner game than MGS2 for a long time.
I agree that graphics are no longer important. All four next gen consoles have/are going to have awesome graphics. It\'s all about the gameplay now.
BTW, does anyone have a link to where it says J&D is pushing 19 million polys?
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Actually IronFist, I am not excited, nor waiting for MGS2, I didn\'t like MGS, so it does not really excite me. It just isn\'t my cup of tea, but I understand that ALOT of people LOVE the game.
Eric Jacob
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Originally posted by AlteredBeast
Actually IronFist, I am not excited, nor waiting for MGS2, I didn\'t like MGS, so it does not really excite me. It just isn\'t my cup of tea, but I understand that ALOT of people LOVE the game.
Yep, you are in the minority. :)
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I bet there will be alot of mainstream gammers who wont be picking up MGS2. Myself I never even cared for the first one on PS1. I remember when this game out on PSX, people were saying it was awesome, etc...
I thought the graphics were ****, and the game bored me, but hey, that\'s just my opinion.
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MGS2 will be THE game this year. I think the whole series is a masterpiece, just 5 more months til november.
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Originally posted by IronFist
BTW, does anyone have a link to where it says J&D is pushing 19 million polys?
hold on dude, im right on it dude...ill edit this post wheni find it
GAH! i cant find it, dont worry ill keep looking...Damn IGN bastards, i thought it was in an interview, it was when they posted the ten new movies...gah
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
hold on dude, im right on it dude...ill edit this post wheni find it
I read the same thing, I\'ll see if I came find you the link as well. The numbers came from jason rubin I think, and he said he wanted the final number to be 21 million ploys which is more than any other game out on any consoles.
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At E3 at the Xbox booth there was a movie playing with "Sneak Previews".
There was a game on there in which this girl dressed in a warrior outfit was running and a guy was running behind her.... She runs up to a wall, does a flip off the wall and lands behind the guy and a fire ball comes out of the wall and kills the guy. The moves were spectacular and the graphics were stunning. I have seen tons of games on PS2, Gamecube and Xbox and Nothing and I MEAN NOTHING has come close to this.
The girl did NOT look like Laura Croft. The games shown were ONLY first party games not third party games.
Its is pretty clear that Microsoft is waiting on something. Now I am 100 percent positive that this game is NOT a launch title, it maybe a spring 2002 tittle, but it was awesome!
I do talk to James Allard, maybe I should email him and ask.
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Originally posted by raslant
I read the same thing, I\'ll see if I came find you the link as well. The numbers came from jason rubin I think, and he said he wanted the final number to be 21 million ploys which is more than any other game out on any consoles.
Sorry man, there is no way you are going to find that. It\'s all some bogus rumor off the IGN boards. I remember sombody posting it in the main forum, I won\'t bother finding the post but the gist of it was:
"IGN BOARDS
Johnny 5732 (or whomever) Says- My brother/cousin/uncle/best friend/mistress/dog/mom works at Sony and he says that the Jason Rubin game is looking mindblowing, its currently pushing 19 million polys and it\'ll be pushing 21 by the time it\'s released."
The game is obviously pushing an insane number of polys but I\'m a skeptic so I\'ll wait for an official statment direct from Naughty Dog regarding the poly count, not some bull**** off the IGN boards which are full of fanboys.
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Originally posted by kangu-G^Ltt^s
Sorry man, there is no way you are going to find that. It\'s all some bogus rumor off the IGN boards. I remember sombody posting it in the main forum, I won\'t bother finding the post but the gist of it was:
"IGN BOARDS
Johnny 5732 (or whomever) Says- My brother/cousin/uncle/best friend/mistress/dog/mom works at Sony and he says that the Jason Rubin game is looking mindblowing, its currently pushing 19 million polys and it\'ll be pushing 21 by the time it\'s released."
The game is obviously pushing an insane number of polys but I\'m a skeptic so I\'ll wait for an official statment direct from Naughty Dog regarding the poly count, not some bull**** off the IGN boards which are full of fanboys.
its funny how i didnt read it off the IGN Boards, but in an interview posted at IGN in an Interview with Jasin Rubin, he sais it is currently pushing 19 million pollies a second, and they plan to have it at 21 million by the time its released :)
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Originally posted by Docwiz
At E3 at the Xbox booth there was a movie playing with "Sneak Previews".
There was a game on there in which this girl dressed in a warrior outfit was running and a guy was running behind her.... She runs up to a wall, does a flip off the wall and lands behind the guy and a fire ball comes out of the wall and kills the guy. The moves were spectacular and the graphics were stunning. I have seen tons of games on PS2, Gamecube and Xbox and Nothing and I MEAN NOTHING has come close to this.
The girl did NOT look like Laura Croft. The games shown were ONLY first party games not third party games.
Its is pretty clear that Microsoft is waiting on something. Now I am 100 percent positive that this game is NOT a launch title, it maybe a spring 2002 tittle, but it was awesome!
I do talk to James Allard, maybe I should email him and ask.
Funny no one else has said anything about it?
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Originally posted by Docwiz
At E3 at the Xbox booth there was a movie playing with "Sneak Previews".
There was a game on there in which this girl dressed in a warrior outfit was running and a guy was running behind her.... She runs up to a wall, does a flip off the wall and lands behind the guy and a fire ball comes out of the wall and kills the guy. The moves were spectacular and the graphics were stunning. I have seen tons of games on PS2, Gamecube and Xbox and Nothing and I MEAN NOTHING has come close to this.
The girl did NOT look like Laura Croft. The games shown were ONLY first party games not third party games.
Its is pretty clear that Microsoft is waiting on something. Now I am 100 percent positive that this game is NOT a launch title, it maybe a spring 2002 tittle, but it was awesome!
I do talk to James Allard, maybe I should email him and ask.
Bull$hit. Until you can prove that then you got nothing. We know your a horrible liar Dicwiz, don\'t try to pull **** like that again.
In fact, since you apparently know him so well, why don\'t you ask him to come here? This should be funny...
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Originally posted by Docwiz
At E3 at the Xbox booth there was a movie playing with "Sneak Previews".
"There was a game on there in which this girl dressed in a warrior outfit was running and a guy was running behind her.... She runs up to a wall, does a flip off the wall and lands behind the guy and a fire ball comes out of the wall and kills the guy. The moves were spectacular and the graphics were stunning. I have seen tons of games on PS2, Gamecube and Xbox and Nothing and I MEAN NOTHING has come close to this.
The girl did NOT look like Laura Croft. The games shown were ONLY first party games not third party games.
Its is pretty clear that Microsoft is waiting on something. Now I am 100 percent positive that this game is NOT a launch title, it maybe a spring 2002 tittle, but it was awesome!
I do talk to James Allard, maybe I should email him and ask. "
That game was Malice, and I have seen screenshots in Edge, and it does look amazing.
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Hey doc, this the game you mean?
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dijital-underground.com%2Fimages%2Fbloodlust.jpg&hash=c894c53c310a53534ab0061b0b78062477de867d)
Stolen without permission from the new issue of Next Gen. C\'mon Imagine Media! Do your worst! :p
The reason I\'m wondering is their description of \'Matrix-esque\' running up walls n flipping.
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That game looks promising.
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Originally posted by IronFist
Yep, you are in the minority. :)
So am I. I had a strong dislikin\' for MGS. Not sure why. The MGS2 demo was impressive, but not impressive enough to really interest me.
As for Doc\'s "I do talk to J.Allard"--really? I sometimes talk to Jesus, Miyamato, Suzuki, and all the others.. Yeah, we hang out quite a bit..
:rolleyes:
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So am I. I had a strong dislikin\' for MGS. Not sure why. The MGS2 demo was impressive, but not impressive enough to really interest me.
Same here!!!