PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Tshirts on June 25, 2001, 05:07:51 PM
-
I am so fed up with the whole "kiddie" debate. My goal is to present to everyone the most objective viewpoint I can come up with in hopes of laying this whole debate to rest. I strongly believe those who don\'t consider the system as such mainly uses a subjective, personal approach on why they don\'t believe so. The whole issue here is not whether they are indeed mature, but whether they cater to this demographic or not. If you look at Nintendo in contrast with the opposition(Microsoft and Sony), you will see that they simply have no chance to compete for this adult market.
There are a couple of factors:
Advertising
Microsoft and Sony are planning 1.5 something billion dollars this fall alone aspiring for the adult market. I doubt Nintendo will even shell out a fraction of that amount of money considering they still have to maintain their target group(kids) by advertising on Saturday morning cartoons, and cereal boxes, etc. Keep in mind, the opposition has a great deal more money than Nintendo has, and they only have to focus on one group. As far as advertising "to draw this very important, crucial market" do you think Nintendo will be able to compete with the likes of the two behemoths? I am sorry, but I highly doubt they will be able to even break into this market let alone grab a fair portion of it.
Softwares
When you look at the softwares from a subjective point, some ppl view Zelda, Metroid, etc as "mature" titles while others don\'t. Well who is really right or wrong? According to the definition of "maturity" from the Webster\'s Marriam Dictionary:
This is the only objective viewpoint and not of a personal taste.
Mature = characteristic of or suitable to a mature individual {mature outlook}[/b]
Neither titles are consider "mature" because they have characteristics suitable for children(family oriented). Another problem we have is although some individuals consider games like Zelda, F Zero, etc as "mature" titles, those types of games simply do not draw the adult gamers to the system.
When you break down the softwares for the system, you will only see a handful of titles that does draw the adult gamers, and they are:
Eternal Darkness
Perfect Dark
Too Human
Resident Evil O
Mortal Kombat 5
Duke Nukem
Sports games
This lineup is not enough, especially when the system only has 3 titles(ED, PD, Too Human) that will stay exclusive. If the adult gamers want sports games, they can simply just play those games on the opposing systems. With the exception of the two exclusive titles, everything else is finding their way somewhere else. To make matters worse, Eternal Darkness is the only title that has a "set" date. We have only seen tech demos of Too Human and Perfect Dark, and everything is too vague and obscure to even consider those as legitimate.
Honestly, what have we seen from Nintendo so far in regards to them "breaking into the adult market". They simply do not have the softwares, the funds, and the ammuntion to go up against the likes of Sony and Microsoft. How can a title like Eternal Darkness(the only adult title this fall) even begin to compete with a MGS2, Silent Hill 2, or DOA 3, etc. Another thing is, the support from developers(for mature titles) for the system is too limited and many(Konami) are shying away from developement(MGS2, SH won\'t be ported) altogether. Simply put, without the right support, outlook, advertising, and softwares, they won\'t have a chance.
Has it ever occur to you guys part of the reason why those mature titles are there is to keep the current hardcore fans, whom have stuck with them throughout the years, happy? If they seriously are broadening their market, then don\'t you think this has to be the most pathetic attempt by any company yet? They cannot compete! Simple as that. Sony and Microsoft has such a strong grasp on this market that any attempt by Nintendo would be "crippled". With the low, obscure number of titles, and the vast amounts of money the oppositions are spending on advertising, I strongly believe Nintendo is not riding for this market. To do so would be suicide, and they know it.
-
I was about to thank you for your efforts til I jumped to the end and read your summary. Microsoft has no grasp on the industry right now, for one...
The point is the Nintendo "kiddy" label. Most of it is focused on games designed for "all ages" not "kiddies" at all. Case closed, and in one sentence, no less.
-Eik
-
The point is the Nintendo "kiddy" label. Most of it is focused on games designed for "all ages" not "kiddies" at all.[/b]
A game like Mario will simply not draw the adult gamers and that is the point I am trying to make here. Anything that is actually deem as "suitable for all ages" are usually targetted for kids and not the upper age group. Nintendo is mainly catering towards the kids and that will eventually land them a "kiddie" stigma.
Same thing as a rated PG movie will not draw many adults to the theaters.
-
I\'m with you Tshirts. To me it looks like the gamecube is aimed directly at the kiddie market, and any other part of the larger gaming market they get will be frosting. Maybe this isn\'t what Nintendo expects to happen or wants to happen, but I think that\'s what will happen.
Just take a look at the gamecube controller. It looks like it was manufactured by Fisher Price. I think that one little characteristic is going to peg this machine in the kiddie market better than anything else Nintendo is doing or trying not to do. What non-hardcore-gamer-adult would want to be seen holding that controller in public or anywhere else? This design will do well in Japan where everyone is already used to "kawaii" everywhere, but it won\'t fly across all consumer demographics in the US.
To me, I don\'t care what it looks like, but then I\'m a hardcore-gamer-adult. We are in the minority. To be really successful, Nintendo has to sell this thing to other people who care about dumb things like what the case and controller look like.
-
The "conclusion" to the kidde debate won\'t come until a few months after November... so hold off judgement until then.
-
Originally posted by Tshirts
They cannot compete! Simple as that. Sony and Microsoft has such a strong grasp on this market that any attempt by Nintendo would be "crippled".
Microsoft is not even in[/in] the market yet. How could it possibly have a strangle hold on it?
I also agree with Eik on the point of Nintendo\'s games being designed for All ages rather than just kiddies. If the gameplay is good people will come.
Take Shrek for example, it is rated PG and was thought to be targeted at a younger age demographic, yet the movie turned out so good that there is no shortage of adults in theaters lineing up to see the film.
-
Originally posted by Coredweller
Just take a look at the gamecube controller. It looks like it was manufactured by Fisher Price
Sometimes I read **** that makes me want to smack myself upside the head. First of all, the thing looks like a Dual Shock 2. Second of all, shut up, that was the most retarded thing I\'ve read all day - and I\'ve been chatting it up with N64 "kiddies" all day long.
Anyway, with that out of my system, I\'d like to reiterate that labeling Nintendo fans as "kiddies" is rude, labeling Nintendo games as "kiddy" is incorrect, and insinuating for the umpteenth time that all Nintendo fans must be immature is... well... rude and incorrect.
Read this slowly: Because young gamers like a game does not make that game unsuitable for older gamers as well. Very good, now one more time with your eyes open: Because young gamers like a game does not make that game unsuitable for older gamers as well.
Listen, some games are targeted to a younger audience, some are marketed that way. But damn near all of the N\'s games are fun for people of all ages and that\'s where it counts. If you\'re 30 and you like Mario, great. If you don\'t, don\'t be rude to those who do.
And for kicks, I will stress again that labeling these things as "kiddy" is an isult to people like me who enjoy them, and for those of you who were thinking of a "snappy comeback" instead of reading, look at this again: Because young gamers like a game does not make that game unsuitable for older gamers as well.
-Eik
-
Wanna be technical?
Originally posted by Tshirts
Mature = characteristic of or suitable to a mature individual {mature outlook}
"Suitable to a mature individual." I\'m a mature individual, and playing a fighting game with Kirby in it suits me just fine.
And to save having to clear this up later, you\'re right, Nintendo will (obviously) have to work to shake this stigma. Many gamers are (obviously) not enlightened enough to see through all the labeling b.s. Whether you think they can shake the stigma is debatable, but my point is that the stigma in itself is largely unfounded.
-Eik
-
Tshirts, Xbox doesn\'t have any adult gamers, they have no gamers period since they\'ve never released a system before! How can you say they have a hold on the adult market? Have you been stealing Mario\'s magic mushrooms? :D
My goal is to present to everyone the most objective viewpoint I can come up with in hopes of laying this whole debate to rest.
Whoa did you ever set a high goal...
There\'s that word again!(objective) It\'s REALLY hard to have a fully objectivie viewpoint, in fact, I\'m almost going to say it\'s impossible to have one, especially regarding subjects like these.
-
I agree with both Tshirts and Eiksirf.
Gamecubes mature lineup is painfully slim, but they dont make a majority of kiddie games.
As Eiksirf put it, they make games suitable for all ages.
The only problem with this is, is that Older gamers can play "Suitable for ages", just like they can watch shrek, but sometimes they want something with blood and a deep serious plot. They dont want a game that is cute and fun, but dark and menacing, and unfortunately Nintendo\'s lineup in this respect may contain a few titles, but it is so small compared to the competition, its like surfing in a river as opposed to an ocean.
Hopefully they rectify this.
AND HAVE SILICON KNIGHTS MAKE A NEW SHINING FORCE DAMNIT!
-
This debate been at rest with me. Nintendo makes kiddy games. Sony and M$ are going after a different group of gamers.
-
Originally posted by Faithdies
I agree with both Tshirts and Eiksirf.
Gamecubes mature lineup is painfully slim, but they dont make a majority of kiddie games.
As Eiksirf put it, they make games suitable for all ages.
The only problem with this is, is that Older gamers can play "Suitable for ages", just like they can watch shrek, but sometimes they want something with blood and a deep serious plot. They dont want a game that is cute and fun, but dark and menacing, and unfortunately Nintendo\'s lineup in this respect may contain a few titles, but it is so small compared to the competition, its like surfing in a river as opposed to an ocean.
Hopefully they rectify this.
AND HAVE SILICON KNIGHTS MAKE A NEW SHINING FORCE DAMNIT!
True enough, but from the looks of it, the few mature Nintendo titles will all be great games. (Compare that with the ghost of Playstation past. ;)) And that\'s all that matters.
...
Hmm...
True enough, but from the looks of it, the few mature Nintendo titles will all be great games.
LOL, I think I just told you that it\'d be alright because of quality over quantity. Shoot me now, haha.
-Eik
-
im with Eik as usual
hes a legacy dont forget
:)
-
Originally posted by mm
im with Eik as usual
hes a legacy dont forget
:)
But you always say Nintendo is kiddy...
-
Nintendo\'s core audience has and always will be the younger audience and that is a good thing. Who else is targeting that market? No one! Therefor, they can target it and get it succesfully. Sure, they don\'t have a huge share of the adult gamers, but if they span out just alittle with games like PD2 and Eternal Darkness, they can grab a few of those. Either way, the younger audience will keep them afloat buisness wise as will the handheld market. Therefor, they really don\'t have a big reason to change their buisness plans.
Will the system be geared towards the younger auidence? More and likely. Does it matter? No.
I figure it like this, the \'true hardcore\' gamer doesn\'t care if the game is "kiddie". He / she cares about if it is fun. Nintendo has established themself by making fun first party games . As long as they continue this is all I care about.
-
Originally posted by Eiksirf
Sometimes I read **** that makes me want to smack myself upside the head. First of all, the thing looks like a Dual Shock 2. Second of all, shut up, that was the most retarded thing I\'ve read all day - and I\'ve been chatting it up with N64 "kiddies" all day long.
I was referring to the primary colors the controller is molded in, not the shape. The colors are reminiscent of Fisher Price toys. Am I wrong? Why did you say what I wrote is retarded? It would be more effective if you said why the controller DOESN\'T look like it was manufactured by Fisher Price.
Why are you offended by any of this? I didn\'t say that youth-oriented games are crap. I just said that\'s the market Nintendo appears to be leaning toward. I don\'t personally enjoy those games, but I can see how anyone of any age could. I didn\'t say the games would be unsuitable for older gamers. I just said that among non-hardcore-gamers, the overall marketing of the gamecube could discourage adults from purchasing it. You take this stuff too personally by reading some kind of insult into it. It appears you just don\'t like the word "kiddie," so I\'ll use the phrase "youth-oriented" to be more PC. What you call it doesn\'t change reality.
-
Originally posted by Coredweller
I was referring to the primary colors the controller is molded in, not the shape. The colors are reminiscent of Fisher Price toys. Am I wrong? Why did you say what I wrote is retarded? It would be more effective if you said why the controller DOESN\'T look like it was manufactured by Fisher Price.
Want me to refute that? OK...
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mtco.com%2F%7Ewildmare%2Fimages%2Fkeith1.jpg&hash=0ec12e6ef350cc7f231f58e60d062f9698cdd55a)
*sarcasm* Look, this car is yellow! It looks like a Fisher Price car. And look at those kiddie parking space lines on the road, too! And my neighbor\'s house is blue, his house must have been built by Fisher Price Lumber, Ltd. */sarcasm*
And the only time I get offended is when things I enjoy are insulted for such asburd reasons as this. I wonder how Kieth would feel after you told him his \'98 Mustang GT was like a kiddy Fisher Price toy? Exactly.
Anyway, Nintendo has a strangehold on the young market because of all the E rated games. E still stands for \'Everyone\' though, which is why adult gamers will always have a place to go with the Gamecube (not to mention more and more the adult gamers are the ones with nostalgic NES memories). Add to that the more mature/teen offerings that are coming up as well as growing RPG and Sports support, and the GCN will cater to these same gamers even moreso.
Whoever said Nintendo didn\'t need to change was right, but that\'s because not only does it have a strangehold on the \'E\' market, it also offers more for gamers who enjoy a few M and T games along the way.
-Eik
-
I agree with Faithdies here. Take for xample Silent Hill2.
Konami won\'t port it to NGC, but it will to GBA. My opninion is this is because the GBA versions is less graphic explicit and it plays like a virtual book.
On the other hand we can see Capcom bringing various
Resident E games to NGC and lately I heard Onimusha 2 is comin to NGC as well.
So referring to Nintendo as \'kiddy\' doesn\'t apply
( anymore ), but youth-oriented does.
Living in Clip goes on about the \'fun\' factor. Sure I can enjoy a game that is \'fun\' in that way. But the scene where Snake thinks after he shot Sniper Wolf, with Otacon in grief isn\'t fun.
It\'s about deep plot, emotional engagement and thinking about values and stuff.
So, \'fun\' isn\'t always what I want in a game. So the current years, in the \'mature-oriented\' genre , imo we are moving from ; blood/gore and rude jokes like Duke Nukem - to the more \'sophisticated dark
world in which we as gamers can reflect upon the actions our game protagonist, for example Snake, effect
the game and it\'s story but also our moral values and standards.
So Nintendo.... uh uhm , I mean Rare comming with a game like Conkers BFD isn\'t the way to \'win\' an older audience.
Knotter8 :)
-
Consider the following quote of Tshirts in the ‘Videogames.com reviews possibly riggged\' thread:
Originally posted by Tshirts
Consider this, the game(Twisted Metal: Black) recieving a 9.5 firmly places it in the elite group of stellar titles like:
Chrono Cross, Soul Calibur, and Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Paper Mario, etc.
All great, innovative softwares that brought some new gameplay, and extended it\'s respective genre to new heights.
Three out of four "elite stellar titles" Tshirts named are for Nintendo systems. Do ya think maybe Tshirts is playing devils advocate to get Nintendo fans to argue his case for him? Hmmm....
BUSTED!
I\'ll play along anyway.
What is the game the legendary Hideo Kojima was last reported to be playing? Pokeman! With his 5 year old son. If asked, Hideo would probably say they both were having a blast.
Side note; I guess mm thinks Hideo should be shot;)
My point is, even if most of the GC\'s sold will be bought by parents of the twelve and under set, it doesn\'t mean Mom or Dad won\'t be having fun with it too, along with all the gamers who have the money and time to invest in more than one good system. PS2 is first choice, being out first with a larger selection of titles that appeal to the more mature gamer. The Nintendo is kiddie argument won\'t ever keep the games from being enjoyed by players of all ages
-
my take:
1) yes the term kiddie in this sense is slightly disrespectful...and yet still true. perhaps the phrase"youth market" hath not offend as much.
2) the controller does look fischer price-ish...and i love their toys!(i am 29) xbox could only die for a controller this cool(i know i haven\'t had a hands on with either but i have yet to read one glowing review on the xbox controller form a non fanboy) SO WHAT?
3) i still play paper scissors rock to determine close arguments...i still enjoy many of the games of my youth...to be more brief: I LIKE GAMES! and it looks like gamecube will have some really great ones, youth market or not!
and while I won\'t pick a gamecube up the moment it comes out i think with the technology it has inside it will surpass n64\'s failings and i will probably snag one at some point.
-
So your saying that the maturity level of a game depends on how many buckets of gore and comical slapstick-like violence is in the game. I guarren-godamn-tee you that the people who grew up with Mario will be drawn to the GC. You don\'t play videogames to look cool or to be popular, you play videogames to have fun. I would take Sonic Adventure 2 over some gore and swear filled game with no substance anyday.
-
I\'ve said it once and I\'ll say it again. If someone can not enjoy a game because it does not have excessive blood and nothing but realistic killing then something is seriously wrong with them. Maybe they have a chemical imbalance or something.
-
Originally posted by Gohan
Maybe they have a chemical imbalance or something.
[Ethugg] Then they should go kill themselves![/Ethugg]
Sorry, couldn\'t resist...
/goes back to playing Chrono Trigger
-
Originally posted by Eiksirf
Whoever said Nintendo didn\'t need to change was right, but that\'s because not only does it have a strangehold on the \'E\' market, it also offers more for gamers who enjoy a few M and T games along the way.
-Eik
I said that.;)
I see alot of people complaining about what the controller looks like. Well, I will agree it is not my favorite design, but if the controller works just fine and is comfortable does it matter what it looks like? NO, it doesn\'t.
Gohan said it perfectly. Someone must have a chemical inbalance or something if you can\'t enjoy a game just because it doesn\'t have tons of blood.
-
Tshirts, you seem to be under the impression that Nintendo games dont apeal to Adult gamers...i think ive seen a few adults in my time playing, or speaking highlky of nintendo...chances are, some of the pro Nintendo fans in here are over the age of 14 (sorry, that excludes you Jumpman)
Tshirts, you seem to be under the impression that Sony and Microsoft wont have any games orientated towards kids...the \'kids\' market is extremely large, and when those kids grow up playing their \'kiddy\' games, knowing they love them, chances are, they are gonna stick with that company and continue to get their gaming goodies from it.
Tshirts, you seem to be under the impression that we think you are objective
Tshirts says~~
Microsoft and Sony are planning 1.5 something billion dollars this fall alone aspiring for the adult market. I doubt Nintendo will even shell out a fraction of that amount of money considering they still have to maintain their target group(kids) by advertising on Saturday morning cartoons, and cereal boxes, etc. Keep in mind, the opposition has a great deal more money than Nintendo has, and they only have to focus on one group. As far as advertising "to draw this very important, crucial market" do you think Nintendo will be able to compete with the likes of the two behemoths? I am sorry, but I highly doubt they will be able to even break into this market let alone grab a fair portion of it.
Honestly, what have we seen from Nintendo so far in regards to them "breaking into the adult market". They simply do not have the softwares, the funds, and the ammuntion to go up against the likes of Sony and Microsoft.
hmm...break into the market...you know, i have one word for you...Zelda...while i personally dont like this game, i am under the impression that quite a few adults do...and definately enough adults to \'break\' into the industry...and, how many copies did Goldeneye and Perfect Dark sell...those games alone have garnered quite a following, and the Perfect Dark sequal (although not a launch game unfortunately) will draw many adult gamers to buy the console....break into the market...please, yo should be more worried about Microsoft breaking into the market
How can a title like Eternal Darkness(the only adult title this fall) even begin to compete with a MGS2, Silent Hill 2, or DOA 3, etc. Another thing is, the support from developers(for mature titles) for the system is too limited and many(Konami) are shying away from developement(MGS2, SH won\'t be ported) altogether. Simply put, without the right support, outlook, advertising, and softwares, they won\'t have a chance.
it doest really matter, there wont be enough gamers with GameCube\'s soon enough after launch to need all the extra games. You dont think people who buy the gamecube are going to buy other games available. Chances are, people buying it at launch will have done their research, and will know what games they are getting. I also think if you have a look, the people waiting up all night in line for their GameCube, chances are they are going to be adults...especially in Japan.
A game like Mario will simply not draw the adult gamers and that is the point I am trying to make here.
that is absolute bull****. Mario is one of the most widely accepted games worldwide, you dont think if they put a new mario game out, it would sell...and sell to adults?
Neither titles are consider "mature" because they have characteristics suitable for children(family oriented). Another problem we have is although some individuals consider games like Zelda, F Zero, etc as "mature" titles, those types of games simply do not draw the adult gamers to the system.
does SSX qualify as a \'mature\' title??? i would consider it so, even though by your definition...and lets make clear, it is YOUR interpretation on the dictionary definition...it would fail, as it as elements that kids can enjoy? Adults love the game, kids love the game, your definition is flawed.
gah! Eik has pretty much summed up everything else
lets make this clear, i am NOT a nintendo fan, and dont really like sticking up for them, but in my opinion, your reasoning is flawed. And if someone says something stupid about the XBox, god forbid, i would even stick up for that
-
hehe
Yea some of my reasonings are definitely flawed, but seriously let\'s just lay this issue to rest. I am so sick of it. Haha
-
Originally posted by Tshirts
hehe
Yea some of my reasonings are definitely flawed, but seriously let\'s just lay this issue to rest. I am so sick of it. Haha
...wha??? where the hell did that come from??? ok then...i guess :)
-
In the end Sony will come out on top.
-
The thing is the kiddy market out numbers the adult marker 5 to 1, so even if nintendo gears to that market they will come out on top.
-
Originally posted by Ricco
The thing is the kiddy market out numbers the adult marker 5 to 1, so even if nintendo gears to that market they will come out on top.
i think your figures are a little off...wasnt the average age of gamers like late teens early twenties? 5 to 1 is a pretty high ratio, theres no way its that much...is there
-
Please read I make some good points. :)
This ones easy...
Adult Orientated Games - Attracts adult gamers, complex plots, mature themes.
Suitable for all ages - Just that, not nessaceraly kiddy as such but you won\'t get any of the features of an adult orientated game.
So then its all down to opinions. I personally prefer adult orientated games with deep and involving plots, to brightly colours quick action platformers. Although I did say prefer, I do like both.
As a whole I do think Nintendo are concentrating on the "Suitable of all ages" range and this will mean that on average most adult gamers may avoid the cube in favour of XBox and PS2 where the games are fun and based for their age group. Some adult gamers may get the gamecube, but the majority won\'t.
So who will buy it ? The kids of course. The games are suitable for all ages, kids like this, kids buy games and console, Nintendo\'s main revenue is from Kids, Nintendo get a reputation for being a kiddy games developer.
Are they a kiddy games developer on the whole ? Of course they are! Is this a bad thing ? Hell no, the games are still good, but I prefer to get my action from the PS2 where on the whole my mind will be challenged more.
Nuff Said!
-
Originally posted by RichGUK
Nuff Said!
Almost. I just wanted to add that you should say "adult oriented" since "orientated" isn\'t a word. Not to take away from your post - it\'s mostly on the mark - I\'m just doing my part to help educate. ;]
-Eik
-
Originally posted by Eiksirf
Almost. I just wanted to add that you should say "adult oriented" since "orientated" isn\'t a word. Not to take away from your post - it\'s mostly on the mark - I\'m just doing my part to help educate. ;]
-Eik
Actually, orientated is a word (the past tense of orientate) but you are "more" correct in that the proper word is oriented (the past tense of orient).
-
Originally posted by Eiksirf
Almost. I just wanted to add that you should say "adult oriented" since "orientated" isn\'t a word. Not to take away from your post - it\'s mostly on the mark - I\'m just doing my part to help educate. ;]
-Eik
Ok cool, thanks for that. :)
-
Originally posted by RichGUK
Ok cool, thanks for that. :)
You did see my post two above this, right?
-
Originally posted by Troglodyte
Actually, orientated is a word (the past tense of orientate) but you are "more" correct in that the proper word is oriented (the past tense of orient).
Thanks for that too. :)