PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => PS3 Discussion => Topic started by: Gman2 on July 06, 2001, 04:41:07 AM
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Remember the sega CD?
32X?
How many "add on\'s" made it so far? NONE.
If Sony thinks they are going to make games that use this hard drive , and that REQUIRE the use of the hard drive (either to enhance a game or to actually run a game) they are dead wrong.
These things are not going to sell. Sure they might sell a few, but the average person is not going to go through all of that. How BAD has Sony handled this whole PS2 thing. First they know that they will need a hard drive and they do not include it. 2nd, they know they will need a internet connection and they do not include one. So to get their product out on time they ship without any of this AND they don\'t even have anywhere near enough to meet the demand. And they launch anyway. I hate to say it but Microsoft seems ready. Their Box is going to come WITH a Hard drive, WITH a modem, and it\'s all installed in one nice package.
I really believe that the PS2 is going to go down hard when they start releasing all these add on\'s. People are going to be in the stores going "hmmm lets see...I can buy a PS2, and a separate hard drive, and a separate modem. Then i can take it all home and hook it all up. It will cost me a TON and take time for me to put it all together. OR...I can buy this X-Box which has all this stuff inside ready to go..PLUS it\'s a more powerful machine, PLUS, it cost a lot less when you add up all of sonys external hook ups" What do you think people are going to do? And you have to factor in that people are going to be BOMBARDED with marketing about this machine before launch. So EVERYONE is going to know all about it by launch time. This is going to kill the PS2.
I think the PS format will survive but it will not survive on the PS2. It will have to be the PS3 (if they can get THAT right).
I don\'t want this system to fail, I invested $300+ just like all of you. But the writing is on the wall.
Just look at it.
G.
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Hey dood!
Lets see how it sells before you start whining..
Sony havent even announced an officiall price in EU or US..
These kinds of things usually go dont in price pretty fast.. (last month a 40GB 7200rpm HDD was worth 200bux.. now its down to 150 or so..)
Im not saying ALL people will get it..
Right now I have no idea how many will get it..
I do know that the jananese are not so narrow minded as us..
They have a more "playfull" attitiude twoards electronics and such..
Im still waiting for a officiall price in Europe..
And this time, people might be more ready for this.. (then back in SEGAs days.. Plus Sony are better prepared for this than sega ever was..)
Im pretty sure Sonys got some little ideas.. :)
If the HDD wouldent sell that great they would most likley drop the price pretty fast..
And if the HDD fails, I dont think it\'ll hurt PS2 that much..
(Remember that SEGAs console was pretty impopluar when they released a 32X, so was N64 when they released 64DD in japan... Guess what.. PS2 IS popular)
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I love the Sega logic..........
Yep. since add-ons have failed in the past there must never be add-ons again. Uh huh.
Everyone who comes to boards like this KNEW that the PS2 was going to get a HDD/Modem add-on.....and they bought the PS2 anyway. Go figure.
Now I know that forum geeks like us by no means represent a MAJORITY of PS2 owners, but here\'s the twist....
Never before in the history of add-ons has the internet (and on-line gaming) been so prevelent. If EVER there was an atmosphere condusive to this type of add-on it IS NOW!
That will by no means gaurantee Sony\'s success in this venture, but the odds have never been better. I for one applaud their efforts. I would rather see one try, and fail, than never to try at all (because of fear of the past).
Note: Yes, the best option would have been to include it from the get go, but cost (look at all the whining on that issue) and Sony\'s desire to get the device right before release, impeded that option.
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It\'s all part of their master plan. Don\'t worry about it bub, they will prevail. muahahaha.... muahahhahaha... muahahahahahaaha.. Now where\'s my one beeeeelion dollars? :evil:
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CVG: How do you think the hardware market will pan out towards the end of next year in terms of PlayStation 2 and Xbox? How will this scenario affect Criterion and its upcoming projects?
CR: "If you want to be part of what’s happening in videogames now go and buy a Playstation 2. Sony has created an incredible machine, and there are some stunning games out today. We’re so excited about the future. Sony understands consumers, that’s for sure.
I agree with Chris Roberts here..
Ive talked with some japanese people, and they are pretty possitive twoards PS2 goin online..
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Well I think I can chew into a little of this as well!
Where to begin. . .
Well, of course xbox comes with it already, they watched the PS2 like a hawk, found where it needed improvements and improved it. Duh.
PS2 came out before the others, a year ago, the hard drive would have pushed Ps2\'s price up too hig. They realized that not all games will require the hard drive, and made an executive decision that was econimical prudent.
Here\'s my theory. When I heard that the FF series was moving to the PS2, I decided that "hey, I should get a PS2 so that I can play the games I want." Same will happen if I find games that I want for xbox, or the cube, or the PS2 hard drive.
Price drops in hardware are inevitable. SONY makes profit from software, not hardware.
The problem with SEGA was that each time they came out with a new aspect of their console, they slowed down or stopped their production of the older console games. This forced people to buy the new hardware, which people couldn\'t quite do. SONY is not forcing people to by HDD, they\'re still making plenty of high quality games that don\'t require HDD.
I can go on. . . if you want me to. ;)
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Originally posted by fastson
Hey dood!
Lets see how it sells before you start whining..
Sony havent even announced an officiall price in EU or US..
These kinds of things usually go dont in price pretty fast.. (last month a 40GB 7200rpm HDD was worth 200bux.. now its down to 150 or so..)
Im not saying ALL people will get it..
Right now I have no idea how many will get it..
I do know that the jananese are not so narrow minded as us..
They have a more "playfull" attitiude twoards electronics and such..
Im still waiting for a officiall price in Europe..
And this time, people might be more ready for this.. (then back in SEGAs days.. Plus Sony are better prepared for this than sega ever was..)
Im pretty sure Sonys got some little ideas.. :)
If the HDD wouldent sell that great they would most likley drop the price pretty fast..
And if the HDD fails, I dont think it\'ll hurt PS2 that much..
(Remember that SEGAs console was pretty impopluar when they released a 32X, so was N64 when they released 64DD in japan... Guess what.. PS2 IS popular)
Are you saying that SEGA was not popular when they released 32x???? SEGA????? SEGA GENISIS????? ARE YOU MENTAL?????
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Originally posted by Clyde
indeed, the genesis WAS the clear winner of the 16 bit war
I disagree. Nintendo had a better hold. While SEGA was innovative and made some great changes for gaming history, at the age of the "add-ons" SEGA took a plunge into the unknown, and was not prepared for the rocky ledge below.
UPDATE: How did my quotation of Clyde happen before Clyde\'s post?? I must be the next M. Cleo! "The tarot is waiting, so give me a call!"
My favorite: "You have me checkin\' upon your husband when I should be checkin\' upon you!"
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indeed, the genesis WAS the clear winner of the 16 bit war
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"Are you saying that SEGA was not popular when they released 32x???? SEGA????? SEGA GENISIS????? ARE YOU MENTAL?????"
-Gman2
Uh, Nintendo was doing much better. After the CD flop, the 32X was doomed. Even a blind man could see SEGA\'s crash and burn.
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and then look where nintendo\'s cd add-on left them
:)
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Originally posted by Clyde
and then look where nintendo\'s cd add-on left them
:)
What CD add on? J/K
The problem with comparing SEGA to PS2 is that HDD was planned from the beginning, and should be the only add-on. Sega kept on changing it\'s format, and discontinued making software for the older formats. SONY is still making games for PSX!!!
SONY has learned from SEGA\'s mistakes, I can assure you that.
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Originally posted by Clyde
and then look where nintendo\'s cd add-on left them
:)
Didn\'t SONY make the Add on? :D
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Somewhere in a parallel universe, people are playing the Nintendo Playstation 2:D
...And Link, Chrono, and Tifa have teamed up for an Rpg..:)
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yes, but link was never in a rpg
:(
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Well he is NOW, DAMN YOU!!!!!!!!!!!;)
...damn pureists...
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Originally posted by CygnusXI
I love the Sega logic..........
Yep. since add-ons have failed in the past there must never be add-ons again. Uh huh.
Everyone who comes to boards like this KNEW that the PS2 was going to get a HDD/Modem add-on.....and they bought the PS2 anyway. Go figure.
Now I know that forum geeks like us by no means represent a MAJORITY of PS2 owners, but here\'s the twist....
Never before in the history of add-ons has the internet (and on-line gaming) been so prevelent. If EVER there was an atmosphere condusive to this type of add-on it IS NOW!
That will by no means gaurantee Sony\'s success in this venture, but the odds have never been better. I for one applaud their efforts. I would rather see one try, and fail, than never to try at all (because of fear of the past).
Note: Yes, the best option would have been to include it from the get go, but cost (look at all the whining on that issue) and Sony\'s desire to get the device right before release, impeded that option.
Listen to this man, he knows his stuff.
just because a addon failed a while ago dosent mean that it will fail now. sony is not stupid, if they were, they would have never grown to be such a large company.
the internet is a big part of everyone\'s life nowadays.
and so this addon has a better chance of surviving since the casual gamers are actually willing to pay that amount these days to play online.
when the genisis was going, they only made improvements in hardware, and no internet was added.(there was none)
and for those who think the ps2 price will never drop, well it will, it will in time for the launch of GC and Xbox. they dont want to tell you that it will drop, otherwise it will make people think, "oh well i will just wait till the price drops."
again, im not saying this addon will do good, i just say that it will be very hard, and it probably wont work if released at 150$ no official price set, but it will be close.
sony will have to either muscle it out (take losses, wich they very well might do) or not, and screw up..
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All the previous Sega addon flops was basically because when Mega CD came out sega slowed down production of mega drive games, when 32x came out the same happened. Anotherwords these addons was required to be purchased to stay upto date and they wern\'t even new consoles, thus people didn\'t bother.
The PS2 hard drive, although would have been better installed, isn\'t a PS2 standard none hard drive console game stealer. I mean its a hard drive. You can save things too it, theres not going to be a load of exclusive PS2 games to use a hard drive, I mean how many more things can you do. Im sure games will include the option of saving to HD but big deal anyone without the HD can just use a standard memory card.
In short this addon won\'t take the PS2 down because it isn\'t trying to get people to move with technology. Its simply a addon which will be used more as a fancy feature, as appose to a must for games fans.
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Square said, that Final Fantasy XI will require the HDD..without it you won\'t be able to play this game. Also pretty much all of the future online-games for PS 2 will require the HDD, so i don\'t think it will fail. And even if it will fail, the HDD will never have as much influence as to bring down PS 2, as most gamers are playing offline and it\'s just an add-on and not a requirement for playing (most) games. That would just hit the online-playablity of Sony\'s system.
I also think that Sony will put down the price later after launch!
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The price for the internal PS2 harddrive
in the Netherlands ( and therefore an indicator
of the average European price ) has been
stated by Sony at DFL 375,-. Holy wowzers !
Now that should be about 180 American Dollars !
That\'s $30 more than ppl in the US pay...
This is an outragious ripoff indeed.
I doubt it will bring down the PS2, but let\'s face it :
it\'s another crappy move by Sony.
Like someone here said before, it shouldn\'t cost
more than a single game.
KNotter8
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Knotter8, where did it say that?
Link?
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Originally posted by Toxical
Didn\'t SONY make the Add on? :D
I believe the point you are trying to address might be that Sony had originally been the designing partner with Nintendo on Nintendo\'s desire to add a CD-ROM to their SNES. Problems erupted however when the two sides didn\'t like working with each other all that much...so Sony took their toys & went home (right to the bank with the PSX - basically, it evolved from the previous design work they were doing with/for Nintendo).
This bit \'o history (that I\'ve tried to fill in) has little to do with the crux of the discussion of this thread...just thought it might bear point of interest to some and to clarify (what I believe might have been) Toxical\'s point.
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Originally posted by Tails
Square said, that Final Fantasy XI will require the HDD..without it you won\'t be able to play this game. Also pretty much all of the future online-games for PS 2 will require the HDD, so i don\'t think it will fail. And even if it will fail, the HDD will never have as much influence as to bring down PS 2, as most gamers are playing offline and it\'s just an add-on and not a requirement for playing (most) games. That would just hit the online-playablity of Sony\'s system.
I also think that Sony will put down the price later after launch!
If both are required, it will hurt PS2. Add-ons will never sell to the mainstream unless they\'re (practically) free. Ever. I wish Sony all the luck in the world, but I can\'t imagine a even small possibility they\'ll pull it off. Sony\'s looking at a MAX 5% of users having both.
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SEGA failures history:
Sega Master System failed because freaking Nintendo prevent any 3rd parties from making games for a different console other than it own.
SEGA CD addon fails because SEGA constantly change format every 1 or 2 years instead of the 5 years life span. Not many developers support SEGA CD except a few and one of the well known is Lunar RPG.
32x fail thanks to changing format every 1 -2 years. Not many games were made for it. Probably have the least games of all in the console history.
Saturn - the 5 years plan should be now and it just right timing. But dued to hard to programs and the cost of the system made the PlayStation (easier to program and a cheaper console) to dominate.
SEGA Gamegear- sure it was powerful than gameboy which have black and white for color. Batteries died really quick like in 2 or 3 hours.
Nintendo past failure.
Power glove for NES died.
Virtual Boy died.
N64 is somewhat a success but also a failure. Not many 3rd parties support.
64dd died.:D
Sony history
PSX is a success.
PS2 so far is a success with a number of 3rd parties.
Sony pick the smart way when they give add dual shock controller in the psx box instead of an add-on peripheral.
So far Sony haven\'t have a bad history yet.
But now hdd cost $150 is scaring me. I prefer $99 or cheape for U. S. price. But that is Japanese cost. addon never have a good history. Hopefully ps2 will be the first console to have a success with addon.
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The HDD will not bring PS2 down because its not a necessity, more like a fancy utility some gamers will want.
The Network Adaptor will not bring PS2 down because the internet has become as mainstream as television and everyone from casual gamers to hardcore gamers will want to play online.
Oh and this belongs in Console Debating.
And thats the bottom line \'cause MY NAME IS SOLID SNAKE 88, I AM THE MGS CHAMPION, AND I CANNOT BE STOPPED!
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it may fail....but it wont bring the PS2 down...if Sony start making games that NEED the HDD...and the HDD has already failed....wouldnt the logical thing to be...bundle it, or give it away free...no way Sony would be stupid enough to make a lot of games that need it, then not have the user base to support it
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ok just on thing everything is gunna be fine sony is one of the largest componeys(spelling correct me if you will)in the world so dont worrie. we can all sleep at night knowing that sony has our gameing days planed...nuf said.
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People are ignoring the (lack of) success of Multi Tap, Link cable and even the PocketStation.
Also, statistically, even a 2nd controller isn\'t boughten by a majority of casual gamers.
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yea and wasn\'t the little ram add on for the N64 pretty successful - it should have been or alot of people are not having fun with Perfect Dark :)
well i think that the HDD will be for the Hardcore and for the FFXI addcits that aren\'t addicted to it but will be when info is released
well i am personally for the HDD - i don\'t see why if you can save up 300 bucks for a console and get lots of games why someone can\'t just save up a 100-150 bucks and get what they want
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Originally posted by Sublimesjg
well i am personally for the HDD - i don\'t see why if you can save up 300 bucks for a console and get lots of games why someone can\'t just save up a 100-150 bucks and get what they want
1-Just so I don\'t give off the wrong impression, I don\'t really have a problem with addons, I have Sega CD, 32X, N64 RAM Pak and tons of controllers/memory cards.
2-But there\'s a big difference between something that is required for games, and something that enhances them. FYI: the 64 Ram Pak was NOT successful. I remember a article about it last winter, it had about 3% N64 user base support. A failure by any measure. PD has sold only a couple million worldwide. That\'s a extremely small % of the user base. And Nintendo actually gave the pak away free with DK64... it still failed... factor in the price, and you can see the reason for doubting its (the HDD\'s) success.
I dont see the HDD doing better than 5% penetration, and thats being generous.
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Originally posted by ssjTrunks
ok just on thing everything is gunna be fine sony is one of the largest componeys(spelling correct me if you will)in the world so dont worrie. we can all sleep at night knowing that sony has our gameing days planed...nuf said.
on = one
componeys = companies
spelling correct me = correct my spelling
dont = don\'t
worrie = worry
gameing = gaming
planed = planned
You asked for it! ;)
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-first I would like to say what\'s up to all the ps2 lovers
-second I think that Gman2 maybe Bill Gates
-well I do wish the ps2 did come with a modem I think it is a sweet machine and I enjoy it very much what I think is that the more ps2 offers for it the better but by it\'s self it is still a sweet machine and Is the best we have right now. I think they made a very good video game console and is great for gaming and will just get better as they offer us things for our ps2
- I do agree with you that the Xbox will be very sweet but you can\'t say that the Ps2 is not a great machine.
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Originally posted by Krimson
People are ignoring the (lack of) success of Multi Tap, Link cable and even the PocketStation.
Also, statistically, even a 2nd controller isn\'t boughten by a majority of casual gamers.
Krimson, I agree with most everything you posted, but did you just say "boughten\'??? LOL!
Anyway, I know most people on here are all in love with this system and will defend it to the end. And I think that blinds most people on here. I want the PS2 to make it just asa bad as (most) of you. I spent my money just like you did. But I am telling you ...and listen now.......THERE IS NO WAY THAT THE EXTERNAL HDD IS GOING TO SELL!. That’s it. Argue all you want but lets face facts. I think Krimsons 5% estimate may be just about right (if not a little high) And when they start making games that require it. Well all I can say is SEE YA!
Ok, now lets just say for argument that this thing DOES sell. Ok It sells and 80% of PS2 users buy it (lol!) Ok first be assured that Sony is not going to give this thing away. They dont give you an extra controller or memory card do they?? So thins thing ships and it sells. NOW, after you get all this stuff installed and working and you are all happy with it, now you want to play ONLINE.
Well now Sony, being the geniuses they are, release the BB MODEM! And now you have to buy THIS and hook it up. ARE YOU PEOPLE ON DRUGS????? Do you really think all this is going to work??? People are going to first buy a HDD and hook it up and THEN buy a modem????? Not to mention them ugliness and the amount of space it is going to take up having all the extra crap hanging off of your PS2! When the X-Box has it all packaged in one nice box. (sure there might me internal versions that you can install inside but how many people want to go opening up there PS2\'s and start screwing around inside) It\'s going to be ugly as hell looking. Instead of one nice box you will have 3! This is never going to work people. The only way Sony is going to save there asses is to either release a NEW version of PS2 with everything included and installed internally (which will piss every CURRENT PS2 owner off) or release PS3 with this all included in a few years. I believe this system has a LOT to offer just by itself, but if they launch these things and start requiring these items, they are going to kill it.
G.
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Wow, quite a few topics on the HD since the announcement..;)
Add-ons have never worked and I don\'t see one compelling reason Sony\'s can be more succesful then previous attempts by Atari, Sega, Nintendo, etc. Sega was very popular in the 16bit era and no one really cared about the CD / 32X (I bought \'em tho. ;) ). Nintendo\'s 64DD was a terrible failure and the expansion pack wasn\'t that popular, I mean, Conker\'s Bad Fur Day didn\'t even support it, I don\'t believe.
Jumpman or any other Nintendo fan can correct me there, if I am wrong.
If people don\'t have to buy it or it isn\'t extremely cheap, then they won\'t buy it. The only "add-on" you can always sell is memory cards.
People have already paid $300 dollars for a console. Most do not want to pay $150 for an add-on that may or may not be used by developers. That would bring the console price up to $450. This is simply unacceptable in the console area. The casual gamer, does not want to invest all this money into something that alot of people still look on as "casual entertainment" or "toys". They much rather take that $150 dollars and buy three games that they can enjoy.
As for the suggestion that Sony could bundle the HD later and give it away free. Bad idea. If they bundle the HD and price the system with HD at $300, people who stood out in line for the PS2 launch a year ago will be severely pissed off at Sony and it will hurt their consumer base ALOT. I\'m not saying they won\'t do it, but if they do, alot of people will be upset with Sony, when they go and pay another $150 for the HD and a friend who waited for the PS2 buys the PS2 unit and the HD together for $300.
Sony can also not market the HD and PS2 unit together for the price of $450. The general consumer would go up to the Eb guy or whatever ask if they needed the HD or if they could just buy the PS2 unit itself for $300. If the HD was not a must (and it won\'t be) they would skip that package all together and just buy the stand alone PS2 unit package for $300 or less (if there is indeed a price drop).
Also if MS targets the HD situation as a marketing ploy, see\'ing as they include the HD with the Xbox, it could effect sales quite a bit. Will people want to pay another $150 when they see that MS could include the HD with their system for the price of the now standard $300? I doubt it. They will feel as if Sony is "nickel and diming" them to death.
Finally, if Sony does indeed plan on upgrading the HD size every year, they will create mass market confusion and alot of people will take the "I\'ll wait \'till next year" approach and probably never actually pick it up.
Will it bring the PS2 down? NO! Can it hurt Sonys\' reputation? Yes. Anytime a company has a failure it sticks with gamers and hurts the reputation slightly. Sega\'s mistake was two add-on failures on one console. If Sony has just one add-on failure this generation, it shouldn\'t effect them that much. The Pope himself would have trouble marketing this add-on.
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Sony rules..............
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Originally posted by Bossieman
Sony rules..............
Yes, they do. But they aren\'t perfect. This HDD plan is a mistake the way they\'re doing it.
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The system itself will fail, but only to the people who don\'t buy the HDD.
And of course it would be expensive in Japan. Everything there is expensive. Its a very weathly country. PS2 there was $400 dollars in U.S. money, and it was $300 dollars in the U.S. I expecta price drop about $10-$50.
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the way i see it, sony will have to take huge losses,(for a good cause, because the internet gaming industry is booming)and couple it with certian titles (FFXI, Dropship?)
or, have it fail miserably.
there are only a few choices one can make..
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i keep telling everyone that the Sony\'s add-on\'s won\'t fail compared to past console add-on\'s,guess we\'ll see when it debuts in Japan (for starters)...there\'s more sucess going for it than against because like someone pointed out,it is prime time now (especially with the majority of pc games used majorily for online use nowdays) for such things. everyone i know with a PS2 expresses they wish to play online like me,without some use of storage (i actually would prefer the use of memory cards with much larger memory capacity,but i\'m pretty sure that technology would take longer to impliment at the moment and probably cost more overall) for online connectivity,it would be a shallow offering...storage is necessary,so it won\'t fail just because of this reason alone.
Oh and this belongs in Console Debating.
how does this belong there? it is strictly a PS2 subject. did i miss something? :sconf:
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man...all this talk about the hard drive and the dang thing hasn\'t even been released in Japan yet...and people are already coming to the conclusion that it\'s gonna fail. Just because all the addons sega made failed doesn\'t mean the hard drive is gonna fail. i\'m gonna get the hard drive the day it\'s released. the price doesn\'t matter to me.
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Originally posted by ps2_mike
man...all this talk about the hard drive and the dang thing hasn\'t even been released in Japan yet...and people are already coming to the conclusion that it\'s gonna fail. Just because all the addons sega made failed doesn\'t mean the hard drive is gonna fail. i\'m gonna get the hard drive the day it\'s released. the price doesn\'t matter to me.
Go ahead and waste over $100 to make a few games load faster.
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Originally posted by Krimson
Go ahead and waste over $100 to make a few games load faster.
I\'m buying it because of the 40GB hard drive... don\'t care about the fast loading. Don\'t come to conclusions too fast
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Originally posted by ps2_mike
I\'m buying it because of the 40GB hard drive... don\'t care about the fast loading. Don\'t come to conclusions too fast
Errrr... and you\'ll do what with the 40 gigs? Toss out your memory card? Hope that eventually some game uses it for mor than fast loading? Sounds like a waste to me... you could get 2 or 3 games instead...
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lol...there is alot to do with 40GB\'s on the internet...think about it for awhile. You got one thing correct and that is people will a HD won\'t have to worry about memory cards. I\'m sure most people collect mp3\'s....after a period of time your hard drive space goes down and down. And what about stuff like for instance EA make\'s rosters updates for Madden NFL 2002 and you would like to store these roster updates on your hd incase you might need them at a later time or just e-mail them to somebody. What if a company makes new downloadable levels for there game which is probably gonna happen.
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Originally posted by ps2_mike
lol...there is alot to do with 40GB\'s on the internet...think about it for awhile. You got one thing correct and that is people will a HD won\'t have to worry about memory cards. I\'m sure most people collect mp3\'s....after a period of time your hard drive space goes down and down. And what about stuff like for instance EA make\'s rosters updates for Madden NFL 2002 and you would like to store these roster updates on your hd incase you might need them at a later time or just e-mail them to somebody. What if a company makes new downloadable levels for there game which is probably gonna happen.
I\'d still rather get the games.
I dont like any games that have rosters, so I could care less about that.
MP3s played on your tv? Whats the point? Like a smart person, I burn mp3s to cdrs... listen to them in a stereo...
I have a few dozen games and plenty of space on my memory card... I don\'t see that being a problem...
Hey, you\'ll get what you want, but from my point of view its a waste. And I don\'t see it catching on in the mainstream.