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Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: on July 17, 2001, 08:09:22 AM
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I wish I didn\'t have to start a new post, but I never got a reply from Altered Beast. Could you please explain to me the verses in 1 Corinthians, 15 that describe the 3 kingdoms? I would greatly appreciate it.
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You can PM him ya know:rolleyes:(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F209.164.116.189%2Fubb%2Frolleyes.gif&hash=cc5aecf47f13aa1f5972acc5588f206129f1c522):rolleyes:(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F209.164.116.189%2Fubb%2Frolleyes.gif&hash=cc5aecf47f13aa1f5972acc5588f206129f1c522):rolleyes:(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F209.164.116.189%2Fubb%2Frolleyes.gif&hash=cc5aecf47f13aa1f5972acc5588f206129f1c522):rolleyes:
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I thought that some of us can benefit from an open discussion. Let\'s wait for a reply from AlteredBeast.
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Its biblical therefor it is open to interpation. Alot of religions believe alot of different things. Jehovah Witnesses don\'t believe it is a literal "heaven". I would go in depth on the subject, but it would take forever and its a bunch of crap, to be blunt. I would know, I was a damn Jehovah\'s Witness for most my childhood / teen years.
So, if you\'re looking for one straight answer - its impossible. Everyone can read into it different and take different meanings to the scripture. Most religions do that,infact.
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Belief is one thing but the truth is a completely other thing.
Peace man. :)
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I am in the same religion as Altered, so I\'ll tell you. I\'ll try not to get too deep and keep it as easy to understand as possible.
When we die, we will be resurrected and judged. From there, we will be placed into one of three kingdoms (actually one of four kingdoms - I\'ll explain)
The lowest kingdom is called Outer Darkness. The only way to go there is to actually know Christ lives, and know god lives, and deny them completely. Unless we actually see god and know for a fact that he is real, we will not have to worry about this. Cane (sp?) is probably going there because he knew they were real, and he denied their existence. Probably less than a handful of people will go there, because it is so hard to go there.
Now onto the other three kingdoms:
The lowest of the three is the Telestial. If you are bad and you don\'t repent, you will go here. It is compared to the brightness of the stars. Joseph Smith said that if we saw the Telestial Kingdom now, we would kill ourselves just to go there because it is so much more beautiful than this world. And that is the lowest kingdom. You may be wondering, why be good then if this kingdom is so great? Read on.
The second highest kingdom is the Terrestrial Kingdom. This is where all the good people go who never accepted the LDS religion. If you do not have a chance to accept the LDS religion on this world, you will be able to accept it after you die. Everyone will have a choice to accept it or not. This world is compared to the brightness of the moon.
The best kingdom to go to, and the one you should be striving to go to, is the Celestial Kingdom. This is compared to the brightness of the sun. This is the only kingdom that you can progress and learn in. There are three levels in the Celestial Kingdom. The lowest one is where angels go to be messengers for God. I am not sure what you have to do to become an angel. We do not know what the middle level is yet. The highest level is the best to go to.
*Warning* The following stuff is where all other religions disagree with us and yell at us. I don\'t expect you to believe it, but I believe it with all my heart.
From the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom, you can progress and learn, and eventually become a god yourself. In no other degree of the Celestial Kingdom, or in any other Kingdom can you progress. That is what hell is -- Knowing that you cannot progress anymore and are stuck right where you are for eternity. For me, not getting to the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom would be awful. I would really be miserable for eternity knowing that I could have done better; knowing that if I tried a little harder, I would be progressing and not stuck. The only way to get to the Celestial Kingdom is 1. get baptized in the LDS church 2. Get married in the temple. Your wife on this world will be your wife for eternity. 3. Live your life worthily by following all the commandments (not just the 10), and repent if you need to.
If you are in a higher kingdom, you can go down to lower kingdoms and visit your family and friends who didn\'t make it. But if you are in a lower kingdom, you cannot go up and visit people.
I hope that cleared things up, and I hope I didn\'t confuse anyone with all that. If you have any questions, just ask. Or even better, contact the missionaries that are in your area and have them teach you about it. They probably know it a little better than I do.
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crazy! you are LDS too, eh?
How come you never stepped in in the huge religion thread and helped me out man? I was struggling with some of the questions and answers I was being given!
Trogolodyte, look to IronFist\'s post for my answer.
Except I wouldn\'t say "you would kill yourself now to get to Telestial", I would say "you would want to die now". I think killing yourself in a sound mind probablky also throws you into outer darkness, as you wasted the only chance God gave you to accept Him and follow His commmandments.
Eric Jacob
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Okay, I was reading the KJV of 1 Corinthians, 15, to which AlteredBeast has told us is where your church interprets this about Heaven. JediMaster PM\'ed me and said that his church (and mine) thought that those three divisions were not separate heavens, but separate ranks. So really it\'s not all that different, we agree that there are divisions, you say that those divisions occur as three different places, while I believe that these are divisions of rank, but in the same Heaven.
Thanks for clearing that up IronFist!
EDIT: It looks like I was typing my post during the time AlteredBeast was typing his. But I\'m glad we\'ve finally cleared this up!
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Originally posted by AlteredBeast
Except I wouldn\'t say "you would kill yourself now to get to Telestial", I would say "you would want to die now". I think killing yourself in a sound mind probablky also throws you into outer darkness, as you wasted the only chance God gave you to accept Him and follow His commmandments.
Yeah, thanks for making that a little clearer. :) But if you kill yourself or anyone else, you will not go to outer darkness. You will go to the Telestial Kingdom with all the other sinners - even Hitler and people like that. Like I said before, the only way to go to outer darkness is to know for a fact that God and Christ are real and then completely deny their existance.
And what religion thread? I would have joined you if I knew about it. :)
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I don\'t wish to appear stupid - even though I will. But, what exactly does "LDS" stand for? I am just curious for I can look some information up on it on the \'net. Iron and Altered\'s posts have made me curious. After being raised as a Witness and see\'ing those views for so long, I\'m always curious about other religion\'s views.
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Actually Clip, many people say that Jehova\'s WItness and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS) are pretty close in some of their teachings.
hope that helps you out.
IronFist - how didn\'t you know? :) the thread called "we are all animals on this planet like everyone else" was the religion thread. And I probably contributed about 1/5 of the posts in it. it went over like 400 replies, I can\'t believe you never looked in on it.
I know you are older and probably could have answered some of the questions better than me! did you go on a mission yet?
Eric Jacob
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Originally posted by Troglodyte
Okay, I was reading the KJV of 1 Corinthians, 15, to which AlteredBeast has told us is where your church interprets this about Heaven. JediMaster PM\'ed me and said that his church (and mine) thought that those three divisions were not separate heavens, but separate ranks. So really it\'s not all that different, we agree that there are divisions, you say that those divisions occur as three different places, while I believe that these are divisions of rank, but in the same Heaven.
I am not sure exactly where the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms are, but I know all three kingdoms are not all one place. Time to get a little more confusing. :)
When the 7000 years of this planet\'s life are over, this planet will be resurrected and will become the Celestial Kingdom. Good and evil cannot be in the same place, so the other two kingdoms will have to be somewhere else. I will try to find some bible references to back me up tonight when I read my scriptures, even though this info might only be in the Book of Moron. And if you don\'t believe in the Book of Mormon, and the info is only in there, it might be hard to convince you. :)
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Originally posted by AlteredBeast
Actually Clip, many people say that Jehova\'s WItness and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS) are pretty close in some of their teachings.
If you think about it, all religions are alike in many ways. It just that the LDS religion has things that other religions are missing. Other religions have the truth (or in some cases, the modified truth :)), but they don\'t have the "full truth."
IronFist - how didn\'t you know? :) the thread called "we are all animals on this planet like everyone else" was the religion thread. And I probably contributed about 1/5 of the posts in it. it went over like 400 replies, I can\'t believe you never looked in on it.
LOL. I saw it, but I never went into it. :) I wasn\'t sure exactly what it was, so I just ignored it.
I know you are older and probably could have answered some of the questions better than me! did you go on a mission yet?
Right now I am getting ready to go on a mission. I have some serious scripture cramming to do in the next 8 months. I can go as soon as this fall, but I think I\'ll wait a little while so I can learn more about our church. I only get to do this once, so I\'m going to make the most out of it.
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Am I correct in saying that the Book of Mormon stems from their interpretations of the Bible?
I find the passage that we are discussing to be difficult to understand. I think that\'s what we have three or four general assumtions made from it. The important thing is that we don\'t look at this passage alone, but cross-reference it with other passages. I\'m unable to do this presently, but this weekend I\'ll be at home with my parent\'s reference materials and expanded concordance. I\'ll see what I can come up with.
All I have with me now is the Living version.
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Originally posted by Troglodyte
Am I correct in saying that the Book of Mormon stems from their interpretations of the Bible?
It\'s time for a little Book of Mormon history. :) To make a long story very short, In the early 1800s (I can\'t remember the exact year), Joseph Smith was visited by God and Christ. He became the prophet of our church. He was given the Golden plates, as well as some other items (like the urumenthumum(sp?)) The Urumenthumum was used to translate the Golden Plates to give us what we call the Book of Mormon today. The Bible tells the story of what was happening in Europe, while the Book of Mormon tells the story of the people in America.
If you have the chance, read the "Joseph Smith History" in the back of the tripple combination Book of Mormon. It will explain everything about how our church was brought back onto the earth.
In case you don\'t know, the tripple combo Book of Mormon contains the Book of Mormon - which takes place back when the bible takes place, Docterine & Covenants - which takes place while Joseph Smith was alive, and Pearl of Great Price - which has some stuff from Abraham. It goes along with what is in Genesis, but it is in a lot more detail.
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I never believed in hell with fire and brimstone - and then heaven, wich would be a place we couldn\'t evolve in. It can\'t be so black and white, so good and evil. But there are many holes, questions, so to speak.
What happens to small children - babies - who die within the timespan of 2 days to 10 months? they\'re not aware of the world surrounding them, nor the religions.
If you believe into the word of christ, and his deeds, are the possibilities to get to the highest level open to you, or do you have to dedicate your life to it?
Still, my religious beliefs lean much towards what you, Altered and IronFist, believe.
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Originally posted by Darth Joyda
What happens to small children - babies - who die within the timespan of 2 days to 10 months? they\'re not aware of the world surrounding them, nor the religions.
The one unforgivable sin is denying God\'s existence. A child, from conception to a couple years does not have the ability to fully understand enough to be able to deny God\'s existence. Since people with down-syndrome have the mental abilities of children, they do not have the ability to deny God. So. . . they go to Heaven.
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Originally posted by Troglodyte
The one unforgivable sin is denying God\'s existence. A child, from conception to a couple years does not have the ability to fully understand enough to be able to deny God\'s existence. Since people with down-syndrome have the mental abilities of children, they do not have the ability to deny God. So. . . they go to Heaven.
But, now if we think about it, it\'s wrong towards those who own the ability to choose between denying God or accepting him. So forth life for small children, who die young, is much easier and provides much easier pass to heavens - wich isn\'t rightful and equal if compared to those who live a long and a hard life.
It is a question nobody can truly answer. Even the answer you gave spreaded many questions more.
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Originally posted by Darth Joyda
But, now if we think about it, it\'s wrong towards those who own the ability to choose between denying God or accepting him. So forth life for small children, who die young, is much easier and provides much easier pass to heavens - wich isn\'t rightful and equal if compared to those who live a long and a hard life.
It is a question nobody can truly answer. Even the answer you gave spreaded many questions more.
But many questions are not for us to answer. I don\'t have the scripture to back up my previous post. But that answer is given to us. As to why some live short lives and why some live for a long time may not be for us to comprehend. What other questions spawned from my answer?
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Originally posted by Troglodyte
But many questions are not for us to answer. I don\'t have the scripture to back up my previous post. But that answer is given to us. As to why some live short lives and why some live for a long time may not be for us to comprehend. What other questions spawned from my answer?
Questions considering the meaning of this life. Without after-life, there would be no reason for our existence, so to me, it\'s logical that a place where we all go someday exists, after death. But sometimes I doubt it, and I get very depressed. I am a religious person, but life hasn\'t treated me with silk-gloves...
I know, Trog, that many questions aren\'t for us. But those questions keep circling my head and they\'re literally making me sleepless and angry. I will look for the moment when I get my answers... wich is after death, I believe.
Those who live short lives must fulfill their meaning quickly. Perhaps the death of someone young is a lesson to someone. But still it is wrong towards the one who has to live, and have to keep faith up, than to one who never has experienced what we call religion and never has to face the problems we get with it.
But religion is something our brains can\'t comprehend. We should stay in faith like children, and so I would\'ve wanted to die at the age of 10, when I had no doubts, no fears and what not. I was happy, truly.
These discussions are always interesting, Trog, and I expect to continue these tomorrow - but now I\'m sleepy, and that I have been able to express myself, I\'ll be able to sleep tonight :)
So, Good night everyone. Going to sleep...
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Originally posted by Darth Joyda
I never believed in hell with fire and brimstone - and then heaven, wich would be a place we couldn\'t evolve in. It can\'t be so black and white, so good and evil. But there are many holes, questions, so to speak.
There is still going to be "fire and brimstone" though, just not for eternity. When the second coming happens (many think it will happen within the next 20 years! It\'s a scary and an exciting thought, depending on which side you\'re on), the earth will be burn and completely "cleansed" of all evil. Satan will be bound for 1000 years, so we will not have any temptation. We will live in paradise doing geneology work and getting everything ready. (read below about the geneology)
What happens to small children - babies - who die within the timespan of 2 days to 10 months? they\'re not aware of the world surrounding them, nor the religions.
When we die, and before we get resurrected, we will either go to the Spirit Prison, or Spirit Paradise. Don\'t let the names fool you. The only difference is one knows about the church and one doesn\'t. The people in Spirit Paradise go around trying to convert as many people that are in the Spirit Prison as they can. Even babies will have a chance to accept or deny the gospel. And if you don\'t have a chance to get married in the temple on earth, you will have a chance after you die.
You may be wondering, "What about the baptizm?" Like I said before, if you want to go to the Celestial Kingdom, you have to be baptized. That is why the LDS people believe so much in geneology. We find out everyone who has not been baptized, then we baptize them in the temple. It is called "baptizms for the dead." An alive person go in place of the person they are baptizing, and they are baptised for the dead person.
God has provided a way for everyone to make it to the Celestial Kingdom.
If you believe into the word of christ, and his deeds, are the possibilities to get to the highest level open to you, or do you have to dedicate your life to it?
Some religions believe that if you believe in Christ, you are instantly saved. But the LDS church is different. You don\'t have to go out and preach this religion every day of your life, but you do have to keep the commandments, set a good example, and do the things that I mentioned before (temple marriage, baptizm).
You don\'t have to dedicate your life to it unless you are in the presidency. I can still be a programmer as well as a LDS. The prophet, the 12 apostles, and the quorum(sp?) of the 70 all lead the church for a living. We pay them out of our tithing to lead our church. Personally, I would love to dedicate my life to this church. It would make life a lot less stressful. I wouldn\'t have to worry about getting a job or anything like that.
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Originally posted by Darth Joyda
But, now if we think about it, it\'s wrong towards those who own the ability to choose between denying God or accepting him. So forth life for small children, who die young, is much easier and provides much easier pass to heavens - wich isn\'t rightful and equal if compared to those who live a long and a hard life.
It is a question nobody can truly answer. Even the answer you gave spreaded many questions more.
You have to remember the reasons we were sent to this earth. One reason is so we can be tested, and yes, people who die young get out of this one. But another reason is to learn. While on this earth, we need to learn as much as we can, and hopefully it will help us become great gods. The people who die young miss the chance of learning on the earth. I think it equals out in the end. It is fair for both the long-livers and the early-dyers.
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Originally posted by IronFist
You have to remember the reasons we were sent to this earth. One reason is so we can be tested, and yes, people who die young get out of this one. But another reason is to learn. While on this earth, we need to learn as much as we can, and hopefully it will help us become great gods. The people who die young miss the chance of learning. I think it equals out in the end. It is fair for both the long-livers and the early-dyers.
I agree with you about learning as much as we can. I try and be as good as a person as I can be.... Maybe I don\'t try as hard at certain times as I should but I am aware of my actions and what affect they have on others.
My problem is one doctrine compared to the next. I have denounced all doctrines as false.. Not completly false but a misrepresentation of the way things are.. Through science and self beleif is the only way to transcend this planet.. If you do not strive for yourself then you are lost... This talk about multiple heavens is all quite interesting but I beleive it is just another interpretation of something none of us understand..
There is one thing to belive in yourself.. Learn, educate yourself.. Take in as much information as possible... Because there is only one gaurented in life and that is death. So I say live for today. And If I had to believe in anything I would say spiritualsim(sp)
Maybe I am wrong, maybe you are wrong. But I say live for today and except all and their beleifs .. I would love to sit down with some of you and have a conversation face to face... I will keep up with this thread. Because the things I have read so far are quite interesting..
Please keep educating me.. I am always willing to listen to another view point even though I may not agree with it..
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The part though that you are talking about is these kingdoms, the KJV says that they are bodies, and those bodies are better than ours. It dos not say kingdom once in that entire passage. Nor does it say Angels seperate from humans and God. The thing I don\'t understand is you are saying Christ is not perfect since he keeps saying that there is a heaven and a hell. You belive Christ is your savior but you do not belive he is perfect. If you do not belive he is perfect than that means that he ins\'t the savior, and if you don\'t belive that you go to hell.
I am a Lutheran, we belive the Bible is perfect and has no flaws, and direct interpretation of the Bible. What your church has done is it has Read into the Bible. Since they did not agree on one part, they twisted that verse into saying what they wanted it to say. What you are beliving in is something that man said. Man is sinful and unclean, and then you shun from what Jesus says, who is perfect. Your church, my friend, is corrupt. It is like taking the Verse "But do not take an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth." And then sense YOU what revenge you can read into it. and just leave out the first part. "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." I don\'t know where they get this from, or why they don\'t belive in a heaven and a hell. Go to a different church for maybe once or twice and you can see the difference.
The Jehova\'s Witness have taken the entire Bible and rewriten it, which is much worse than your church altered. Livin Chip, (I\'ve never talked to a previous JW) how did you get out?, are you parents still JW?, do they dislike you?, what are you now?
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you do not understand.
The bible isn\'t perfect, because it has been translated and changed throughout it\'s many incarnations. The King James version is the most intact version out there, but even that has been messed with over time.
We believe that Christ is perfect and is our savior. We also believe in baptism for the dead and in 3 kingdoms of glory after death and resurrection.
Do not think that the bible is perfect, especially when there are so many out there. They were changed over time to have the meaning that a certain priest wanted it to have 1500 years ago.
also, don\'t believe that since your church is older than ours that it is correct, because we are the restored church that Christ set up on the Earth in Europe and the Americas.
Eric Jacob
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Yeah, right... Your the one reading into the Bible about the 3 kingdoms which none of the Bible says. But see, you are saying Jesus lied about heaven and hell. Thus that makes him seem imperfect in your POV.
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perhaps if He would\'ve told people about the 3 kingdoms, they would have killed them much earlier than they did. As He would\'ve been speaking sacrelige against the churches of the time, even more so then He was.
Kind of like what the LDS church is doing now? I guess you guys gotta here it sooner or later, might as well state it.
Eric Jacob
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The KJV is not the most intact. The KJV was constructed from the translations of the SAME documents as the other versions. I\'ve posted a comparason of a couple verses before, they say the EXACT SAME THING. The differences are there because there are no exact English words as the words of the more ancient tongues. The translations are basically synonyms of each other. The newer the version, the more acurate translation of the Bible. Because we learn more about the languages and what the English equivalents should be the more we study it.
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Since Jesus never said that there were three kingdoms and he just said that there are two. And maybe if someone wouldn\'t have tried to twist Paul\'s words around, then we would not have this arguement. If Jesus said it, it is true.
For the Last Time! It Never Says AnyThing About 3 DIFFERENT Kingdoms In The Bible. Get That Through Your Head!!!
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Calm down JediMaster. I can see where they got three kindoms, our churches have just interpretated differently. We\'ll just have to wait until our time comes to find out first-hand.
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There\'s only one heaven... the Playboy Mansion baby! :nut:
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jedi master, please have patience with me, because I just don\'t know why my church can\'t interperet those verse as of different glories of kingdoms, but YOU (yes, one single solitary kid) can interperet it as being angels, humans and God.
but of course you are correct, after all, you are you.
open your mind my friend.
Eric Jacob
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AlteredBeast, just as you asked JediMaster to open his mind, I ask you to open yours:
Originally posted by Troglodyte *note:edited
The KJV may not be the most intact. The KJV was constructed from the translations of the SAME documents as the other versions. I\'ve posted a comparason of a couple verses before, they say the EXACT SAME THING. The differences are there because there are no exact English words as the words of the more ancient tongues. The translations are basically synonyms of each other. The newer the version, the more acurate translation of the Bible. Because we learn more about the languages and what the English equivalents should be the more we study it.
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Trog, just because I don\'t reply to a certain message or reply doesn\'t mean I\'m not soaking in another view.
I don\'t take it that the KJV is all correct and that the NIV is wrong or the LBV fro that matter. But just from glancing at the KJV in comparison to other versions I can see that the KJV uses the old English and does not try to simplify the teachings of prophets, before and after Christ. It is also the standard which my church uses, which I can see the reasons of, therefore, I choose not to use the NIV or LBV. I believe the KJV was translated through inspiration of God. It\'s just not the same thing, especially when the three say vastly different things and sometimes contain entirely different topics than eachother, I will just use the one my church deems most correct.
Eric Jacob
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That\'s funny. \'Cause my church\'s official translation is NIV. I, on the other hands use the Living translation, whilst my Study teacher brings the KJV. When we study scripture we study all three versions. How\'s that for being open minded? Oh, and the church has standard beliefs set by the denomination, but it seems that our church has tons of different beliefs depending on our own personal understandings of the scripture.
Hardly ever do we find contradictions within the translations. Some time will have to use specific examples, but I\'ll save that for much later. ;)
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is anyone here roman catholic? i have a couple of questions if anyone is....
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Wow, this thread exploded while I was gone. I believe that the KJV of the Bible is completely correct. The reason the other versions of it that other religions use are not correct is because of the translation problems that they had.
This debate is pointless. I believe that Joseph Smith translated the golden plates using the Urumenthumum, and translated them perfectly through the power of God. He also corrected the translation problems that happened while the true church was off the face of the planet. But of course, that is not what the non-LDS believe.
I have been taught not to convert people by "bible bashing." Other people know their bible way more than I do, and I will never win against people who keep on saying, "What about this, and what about this." I have learned that the only way to convert someone into the LDS church is through the Holy Ghost. Without him, a missionary is useless. The missionary does the teaching, while the Holy Ghost does the converting. This bible bashing is not helping anything. Because of all the bible bashing going on, I\'m not going to post anymore in this thread.
I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the one and only true church on this planet. I know that Joseph Smith translated the golden plates and gave us completely true versions of the Bible and Book of Mormon. I know that we all are chosen ones, and have been saved for this time period because God knows that this is the hardest time. I know that in the pre existance (another thing that no other religion believes in), we must have been really good people in order to be saved for this time. I know that Christ was a perfect man, and he died and was resurrected for our sins. I know God\'s plan, and I know that he wants all of us to become Gods like him.
And don\'t bother telling me to open my mind to other religions. If you knew what it was like being a LDS, you wouldn\'t want to convert either. :) There are no questions that cannot be answered through this church that are important to our salvation. Having no questions about what life was before I was born, what life is right now, and what life will be like after I die is great, and makes me very happy to be part of this religion.
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I can\'t say I agree with everything that IronFist has said. But I\'m sure that\'s expected.
But IronFist, have you researched other religions? Or are you following in your parent\'s footsteps?
I\'m Christian, just like my parents, but before I was baptized I reasearched a little bit of most major religions.
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I did not know that Joseph Smith translated the Bible too. you learn something new everyday :)
I too know and believe the fullness of the gospel lies within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I also know that anyone who reads the Book of Mormon with good intentions and prays on it after reading will find comfort from the Holy Ghost who will show you it is true.
Troglodyte, if you\'re church uses the NIV as it\'s STANDARD, why would you use any other version, knowing that there could be some inaccuracies to it that you\'re church does not condone. It is the same way with my church. It says that the KJV is the one true correct version, and I use it because of this.
I am not directing this at anybody, but this is a question all you non-mormons out there.
Do you follow what you\'re church tells you? I have many catholic friends and they hardly participate or act on what the church instructs of them.
Recently there was a Bill out that would outlaw gay marriage in Nebraska. The Catholic church of Nebraska supported it and suggested it\'s members vote for it. But when I asked many of my catholic friends about it, they said they would vote against it. That shocked me. totally shocked me. Isn\'t the pope the leader of the church, if he supports it, shouldn\'t you? You may not like it, but supporting what you\'re church says just comes naturally to me.
But of course, not many catholics have been oppressed in the last 2000 some odd years. If you are LDS, you learn to stand by your convictions in what you believe when you are a member.
Eric Jacob
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I have researched heavily into other religions Trog. This church is the only one in which when I enter intot he chapel, I feel something in my heart. When I go into a temp0le of my church, I am nearly overwhelmed of the feeling of warmth and love. In other churches, I feel nothing other than the appreciation for great architecture.
I have also never come across another christian religion whose members and doctrine are questioned more than any other.
How can you be so happy Eric and live under such strict rules? that is a question I get often. By living without drugs, alcohol, sex (until marriage), etc. I live without things that I live waste my time and mind on getting while I should be worshiping God and obeying His commandments. many of my friends strive to get their next sack of weed or get to that next aprty so they can get drunk. But since I have never done those things, I have no desire to do them. the object of my weekend is never to get drunk, therefore I am happier, truly happy. addictions of any nature are bad to spiritual and physical health.
Also, at the Temple open house in Omaha, many people would stand outside and pass out anti-mormon literature, but all the stuff was wrong in it. I pity any non-members who\'s minds were changed about the church by reading this stuff. We never pass out literature against other religions. We simply say that all christian churches have truth, but we have the fullness of the truth, and the only way to return to live with God.
Eric Jacob
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Not following your churches doctrine is a sin, called hypocrisy. You are unfit as an example of Christ, and sometimes elude others from coming to know Christ.
I explained that I prefer the Living translation. By standard I mean that all of the Bibles in the Pews are NIV. Sometimes the Minister even quotes from other versions.
You also must realize that we believe that the NIV does not has inaccuracies. Neither does the Living, neither does the KJV. It seems your church is the only one that belives that the KJV is superior. We believe they are all equal.
UPDATE: I just read your "second post in a row." That\'s funny, \'cause I felt really creepy in a Mormon church, and even more creepy in a JW church. I\'ve felt at peace, loved , and accepted in Christian churches. It\'s like I can feel my soul "uplifted" there. But then again, I feel my soul being uplifted whenever I\'m with any group of Christians in fellowship.
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the LDS and the JW churches are Christian.
The JW ust believe things extremely different from every other christian churches.
The LDS church is stricter than other christian churches. We don\'t smoke, drink, have premarital sex, etc. but we DO believe Jesus Christ died for our sins.
read the Book of Mormon, really read it Trogolodyte. I promise if you read it with good intentions you will find the answers you are looking for.
Eric Jacob
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Originally posted by AlteredBeast
the LDS and the JW churches are Christian.
The JW ust believe things extremely different from every other christian churches.
The LDS church is stricter than other christian churches. We don\'t smoke, drink, have premarital sex, etc. but we DO believe Jesus Christ died for our sins.
read the Book of Mormon, really read it Trogolodyte. I promise if you read it with good intentions you will find the answers you are looking for.
I\'m sorry I misunderstood, it\'s just that they\'re so different that I sometimes forget that they are Denominations! Sorry!
I can state for Methodist and Baptist that we don\'t tolerate smoking, drinking, premariatal sex, either! If you see someone that does then they are being hypocritical and are being a bad example.
I\'ll try to get my hands on a copy sometime in August. And I\'ll let you know what I think. I give you my word that I will read it with an open mind, and an open heart. I give you permision to get on my case if I haven\'t started reading it by the end of August ;). I really want to now, but sometimes I get sidetracked.
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Originally posted by IronFist
Yeah, thanks for making that a little clearer. :) But if you kill yourself or anyone else, you will not go to outer darkness. You will go to the Telestial Kingdom with all the other sinners - even Hitler and people like that. Like I said before, the only way to go to outer darkness is to know for a fact that God and Christ are real and then completely deny their existance.
And what religion thread? I would have joined you if I knew about it. :)
wELL I BELIEVE there is one heaven and one hell. All sinners go to one hell and all saints goto one heaven. From my interpetation of the bible I don\'t see how there all new hell. I believe hell is seperated into different parts, but is all the same.
Well as for the NIV AND KJV. The NIV bible has been interpeted bye man and when man starts interepeting the bible in his own mine and not the way god has told him then things start to change. The KJV is the only bible that can stand up in the court of law. The bible says this word where written bye the deciples as they where lead bye the spirit of god. But as for the NIV it has gone through too many hands.
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I know I said I wouldn\'t post in here anymore, but I can\'t resist. :) It seems like the bible bashing is over for now.
Altered, have you noticed the Joseph Smith Translation in the back of the KJV bible? It\'s right after the Bible Dictionary. If you read something that doesn\'t sound right, there will probably be a reference to the JST where it explains it better. I am not sure to what degree he translated it. Maybe he only corrected mistakes, or maybe he completely translated it, but I know that the KJV bible is the true bible and it was translated by Joseph Smith.
And remember that other religions believe in a lot of the same things we do. They have the same morals that we do. Not everyone in their religion follows the commandments, and that\'s the same thing with our religion. That is what repenting is for.
Troglodyte, my parents are LDS, but I have found out on my own this church is true. I know the basics about other religions, but I haven\'t read their bibles or anything like that. My mom is a convert, and her side of the family is all Catholic. She almost became a Nun before she met my dad! I think she was only a few days away from becoming a Nun. :) Like Altered said, when I enter the LDS church and temple, I feel the spirit. When I enter other churches, I just think, "Wow, cool stained glass windows." :)
Is there anyone here that does not believe in religion? It\'s always interesting to hear what they have to say about what life is and stuff like that. And kirath, what exactly do you believe in?
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well, yeah, in seminary first year we did New Testament. So we did alot with the Joseph Smith Translation. I thought you meant that JS went over and changed the whole Bible to mean what was originally meant to be said.
I know that there are people that sin in every religion, even ours, but you just don\'t see it nearly as much in our faith. People stay faithful and worthy of the temple because they truly know of the truth of the gospel, whereas in other churches, they are not guided by the priesthood.
just my take on it.
LDS members live on average 6 years longer than the rest of Americans. something to think about :)
Eric Jacob
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I find this thread very interesting.
I don\'t believe Bible is perfect. I know that fights against my religion, but even as a pitiful weak human being, it is my nature wich wants to make own alterations to the Text, just to feel more comfortable, and to suit my personal feelings towards religion.
Remember that Bible went trough a lot in the middle-ages, when catholic Church literally commanded everything. They tried to gather as many listeners around them, as the more listeners, the greater power they held. I believe they invented the strict hell, the eternal fire and brimstone, to frighten people, to get them to their side. And everything isn\'t so black and white anyway. Bible is full of imaginary telling, and many parts of the Bible are just way too complicated and thoughtful to be invented by human, \'thus I believe in the main message of Bible. Not every detail, but the main message, that Christ has died for us, and that we are saved if we believe in God and Jesus Christ, and that we\'ll resurrect after death.
Ironfist, humans have troughout our time believed end of the world is only few years away - first true, massive belief was when the first millenium changed, on year 999. People believed the world was going to end. Now many believed it was going to end on the year 1999, before year 2000. Still, Bible doesn\'t say when the end comes - only God knows it - and for us it is worthless to predict it\'ll come within next 20 years. But, there are signs in the air - I truly believe that we\'re living the beginning of the end. I just don\'t take it as canon.
For me, it would be too cruel to separate human beings after death, without a chance to regret, to two groups, those who go to heaven and those who go to hell. Cruel.
I think some of you would find the rapture ready -message boards quite interesting - they offer a different point of view, but from same basis. I have visited it few times, and I recommend you to, even once.
Here\'s the address.
http://pub16.ezboard.com/braptureready
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Darth, I understand that no one knows when the second coming will happen save God himself. But from all of the things I have studied, and all of the things I have heard, my personal belief is it will happen within 20 years. I am not one of those people who say they know the exact date it will happen. Quick question: What did all of those people who thought it was going to happen in the year 2000 do after it didn\'t happen? It would have been fun to see their faces. :)
And about that website, no thanks. :) Everyone there seems very confused about the whole religion thing.
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Well, the stuff in here is probably too advanced for me because I have only been interested in religion for the past year when my parents moved me to a Christian school for being bad in public. :)
I just wanted to say that I find these threads interesting and stuff. Not to be offensive or anything, but, I remember my Bible teacher saying something like the Mormons kinda sorta twist the Bible for their own benefit or something. Also, I have two Mormon missionary neighbors and they drop by here once in a while and they said something about a living prohphet at their church.. I don\'t really want to ask them about this, because well... I just don\'t want to. :).. Any response?
All in all, I just wanted to say that going to a Christian school has really changed my life and I no longer resort to doing "bad" things. It is really cool, the stuff that you can learn.. Yeah, that\'s all. Have a nice day. :D
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That\'s a price we have to pay for being Mormons. We are hated by a lot of people. Some people even think that us Mormons have horns. :) And yes, we do have a living prophet. His name is Gordon B. Hinkley. He is one of the coolest people alive. :) I think he is like 90 or 91, and he still travels around the world meeting members and dedicating temples. He is a very funny person, and is the kind of person who you just want to hang around. Don\'t listen to what others have said about us. Find out for yourself. Go tell the missionaries that you want to hear the discussions. It is probably the easiest and most rewarding way to learn the truth about the LDS religion.
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Well, it was kinda weird.. A living prophet..
Maybe I will.. Someday.. :D
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serrano, you might as well do it during the summer when you are out of school, and sooner or later, cause I figure you only got another 30 some odd years. :)
When Christ set up His church in His day, and after He died, he had the 12 apostles. He also set up one to be the head over the church and get direct revelation from God. Peter is an example of a prophet in those days.
Our church is the restored church that Christ set up. So our organization is the same. We have a prophet and president, Gordon B. Hinckley. We have the 12 apostles and we have the quorum of the 70. These men lead the church affairs, but only Gordon B. Hinckley can truly receive direct revelation, as Peter would have, about matters of the church.
Eric Jacob
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I see no one has yet commented on about the fact that Jesus said that there was a heaven and a hell, and no one belives him.
Look at something else.
Jesus says that there is a heaven and a hell.
But then you find this one verse and you can twist it into a different way. When I read the KJV, I thought that the celesstial bodies were angels. Then I looked on the next page (The 4 versions are in one Bible) And the LV, says that they ARE angels. The point that your saying is not true. Jesus says against it and it never says those bodies are kindoms, it is talking about angel\'s and human bodies. Can you guys clearly say why Jesus would lie to you in the bible? Someone answer that.
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Originally posted by JediMaster
I see no one has yet commented on about the fact that Jesus said that there was a heaven and a hell, and no one belives him.
Look at something else.
Jesus says that there is a heaven and a hell.
But then you find this one verse and you can twist it into a different way. When I read the KJV, I thought that the celesstial bodies were angels. Then I looked on the next page (The 4 versions are in one Bible) And the LV, says that they ARE angels. The point that your saying is not true. Jesus says against it and it never says those bodies are kindoms, it is talking about angel\'s and human bodies. Can you guys clearly say why Jesus would lie to you in the bible? Someone answer that.
You just won\'t let this rest will you? Obviously, nothing we say will make you change your mind, and nothing you say will make us change our mind. Religions are not supposed to fight against each other. The Bible was not meant to be used for Bible Bashing. We don\'t need to prove anything to you. We know what is real and what is not real. There is no point wasting our time arguing with you.
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jedimaster, that is the reason we don\'t use th LB, it can say something totally different then what it is supposed to be said.
BTW, we never said there was no Heaven or Hell, just that the words can be used loosely. Heaven can mean Celestial kingdom and hell would be anything lower to the unfortunate people who couldnt reach the higher kingdoms. Hell may be totally in your mind.
Eric Jacob
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Hey, just found this topic. Very cool indeed! I myself am part of the LDS church preparing to go on a mission soon as well. Maybe I\'ll jump in this soon.
And as for the heaven and hell thing...It\'s pretty much what AlteredBeast said above.
There still is a heaven and a hell, it is just all how you interpret what it means exactly. So therefore, JediMaster, Christ did not lie (obviously- he\'s perfect), and how you said in the LV that it says that the Celestial bodies are Angels, it is just an example of Man\'s mis-translation of the Bible. If you can read Hebrew go ahead and check out the Bible that is in Hebrew or even in Greek, which most Bibles were translated from originally, and you\'ll see that it has no references to Angels at all in that passage. Just some translators own interpretation of what they think it should of meant is my guess.