PSX5Central
Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Toxical on August 10, 2001, 08:05:23 AM
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Yawn, why do people get so worked up about this?
I think people should experiment with stem cells so that people that are sick etc.. get better. Is it so morally wrong to cure someone with the stem cells instead of flushing them down the toilet? How many people on this forum would want to be treated with stem cells if it meant they could see again, or walk again?
I think we should embrace stem cell research, not hide from it like 12th century peasants in fear of the unknown.
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The stem cell debate has gone on far to long, but it might cure quite a few of the Uncureable diseases. Aids, Cancer, and any other fatal disease. I\'m sick of hearing, oh it should be banned, no wait, it shouldn\'t. Just let them try it out. Our dumbass government sucks, and they think they are doing what is best for the people of the world. Hell they are actually doing the WRONG thing. Stupid governemnt always thinks they are doing what is the best "interests" of of the US population, when they are actually ****ing everything up. I\'m still against them planning on cloning humans though, i think it should be banned, and IMO, it should be banned like they say it should. Stem cell research on the other hand gives up some valuable things, like, perhaps curing certain fatal diseases, and possibly, hopefully curing AIDS, and therefore ridding the world of the AIDS epidemic. Stem cell research brings alot to the table, but the government won\'t even let it happen. Damn Corrupted US government.
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I\'m getting older... I have a family history of crap health, but I would rather shed my mortal coil than benifit from genocidal nazi experiments.
They can use animal stem cells.
They can use adult human stem cells.
They can use stem cells from umbillical cord blood....
.....But noooooo, lets fertilize a human egg into an embryo, and then rip it apart..pfft:evil:
The Pope decreed it as Evil, and I agree.
...Too bad this research wasn\'t around earlier, maybe Clinton could have been one of those embryo\'s...
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What if your mother used you for stem cell research instead of giving birth to you?? That\'s why I\'m iffy about it. I don\'t know how you feel. It\'s a moral issue, but I guess we\'ll have to wait and see what happens (don\'t get mad at me, just an opinion).
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Amen Evis.
Like all those in favor of Abortion (for convenience). They made it out of the womb....kinda makes their "choice" easy now, doesn\'t it?
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Do you all know how Invitro-fertilization works??
The womans eggs are harvested (10-20 whatever). Then all of them are fertilized with the Husband\'s(or whoever\'s:rolleyes: ) sperm.
They take the most viable looking ones (2-4) and implant them in the mama. The rest (of the babies/embryo\'s) are: trashed, aborted, sold, frozen whatever.
Humanity..
I just wish God would get his butt down here and lay the smack down:evil: :evil:
People complain about Hitler killing millions.... I guess there\'s some international "age-limit" on killing, cause how we do it is A.O.K Buckwheat.
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Originally posted by CygnusXI
Amen Evis.
Like all those in favor of Abortion (for convenience). They made it out of the womb....kinda makes their "choice" easy now, doesn\'t it?
Aww...abortion is so great. The little baby\'s beating heart just suddenly stops...that\'s just great. If I didn\'t want the kid I\'d at least give the baby to foster parents...
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Note, you are not killing a person, only biological cells, which have no memory, nor pain receptors. Right?
A couple of cells don’t\' have a soul ...
I think adult human stem cells are too rigid and can not be used for all purpose treatments,...
Guys, if your son/daughter had leukemia or what not, wouldn\'t you want to save their life? Even if it meant using a couple of human cells to accomplish this? I don\' t see a difference between Stem Cell treatment, and a person dying in a car-wreck and donating his organs for other people. It is for the good of humanity ... IMO.
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Originally posted by Toxical
Note, you are not killing a person, only biological cells, which have no memory, nor pain receptors. Right?
A couple of cells don’t\' have a soul ...
I think adult human stem cells are too rigid and can not be used for all purpose treatments,...
Guys, if your son/daughter had leukemia or what not, wouldn\'t you want to save their life? Even if it meant using a couple of human cells to accomplish this? I don\' t see a difference between Stem Cell treatment, and a person dying in a car-wreck and donating his organs for other people. It is for the good of humanity ... IMO.
But an unborn human embryo isn\'t donating itself. If you got your wife pregnant, would you just take the fertilized egg and give it to stem-cell research?? I know that I wouldn\'t. I guess we all feel differently...
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Originally posted by EviscerationX
But an unborn human embryo isn\'t donating itself. If you got your wife pregnant, would you just take the fertilized egg and give it to stem-cell research?? I know that I wouldn\'t. I guess we all feel differently...
:eek: I think donating an embryo to save my son/daughter would not be out of the question, I think this should be left to the individual parents ... I don\'t think Government, nor the Church should decide if my child will live or die because of some moral issues,...;)
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I kill thousands of un-born children in the shower every morning.:o ;) :D
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Originally posted by juslight
I kill thousands of un-born children in the shower every morning.:o ;) :D
WORD. ;)
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Originally posted by juslight
I kill thousands of un-born children in the shower every morning.:o ;) :D
No...that\'s sperm, not a fertilized egg :rolleyes: And stop that!! :mad: :)
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Originally posted by EviscerationX
No...that\'s sperm, not a fertilized egg :rolleyes: And stop that!! :mad: :)
Well if my boys ain\'t embryos, and my wives eggs aren’t\' embryos,
and since both are mixed by scientists, in a lab, i think it is still ok, since even egg+sperm won\'t create life. you still need a nice warm womb. :D
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juslight.... WAAAAAAAAYYYYY too much information there bud:)
Every day!!:surprised
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Well, I\'m neither for or against it... but the whole moral issue doesn\'t concern me too much... I mean, it\'s not like the embryo knows it doesn\'t get born or anything. Yeah, there\'s more to it than that, but that\'s the core of it IMO. :)
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Who you tryin to kid Samwise?!?!
You want the research to grow bigger boobs:p;)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk%2Folmedia%2F1480000%2Fimages%2F_1484003_porn2_sites_300graph.gif&hash=1653b13ad8ef486747aa336c3809a5fbbc785583)
DAMN those Krauts are horny!!!111
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:yawn: tired of hearing protesters on stem cell research and using fetish tissue. I am tired of it. Is this what they mean buy televsion has nothing but trash on it?:yawn:
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I can\'t believe how people on TV compare this issue with the Nazis and how they experimented on living human beings. :rolleyes: This is different, these are biological cells; They have as much consciousness as bacteria. :rolleyes: If these cells help a person walk, talk, see, “Live”. Then why would people be so uptight about this? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by CygnusXI
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk%2Folmedia%2F1480000%2Fimages%2F_1484003_porn2_sites_300graph.gif&hash=1653b13ad8ef486747aa336c3809a5fbbc785583)
DAMN those Krauts are horny!!!111
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Well.. We are only human
:shy: :rolleyes: :nerd: :nerd:
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There needs to be some testing and understanding
but the thought of labs creating millions of test tube babies for dissection kind of turns my stomach
but the research is very beneficial IMO, and there are secrets to be learned that will benefit us later in our lives and your childrens
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The problem as I see it is that you are dealing with a human life weather or not its something you can phisicaly interact with it so i think that they should not continue destroying embryos. However, these lives that have already been wasted i think should not just be discarded and therefor they should continue reasearch with the cells they already have.
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Acceptable:
Stem cells from discarded embryos, adults, animals, and umbilical cord blood
Cloning (within limits)
Designer babies using non-cloning methods (see note below)
Unacceptable:
Stem cells from embryos made expressly for that purpose
Cloning and designer babies combined, or either done illegally
*A good limiting system (IMO) for designer babies would be based on the Badge system from Paper Mario. The "Badges" (genes) would be called the same thing they are in Paper Mario, but they would have different functions and values, e.g.:
Defend Plus: Guarantees immune system health. (2)
Power Plus: Improves muscle strength and endurance. (2)
Happy Heart: Reduces chance of heart disease. (1)
Peekaboo: Reduces chance of eye problems. (3)
Deep Focus: Prevents anxiety and stress-related problems. (Or improves concentration?) (3)
Close Call: Speeds recovery from surgery and trauma. (3)
The BP value of each Badge would be based on:
-The effort taken to find the gene
-The significance of the gene\'s benefits
-The potential risks in turning on that gene
The BP capacity within which the parents could "design" the child would be based on:
-The academic and financial records of the parents (indicates how well the parents can take care of the child)
-The genetic code of the parents (indicates which problems solved by Badges may or may not occur)
:)
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you must be pretty tired OneGig get some rest.
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Originally posted by Tetrad
you must be pretty tired OneGig get some rest.
Right now he\'s the smartest person in this conversation...
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Hmph. What is an embryo? An embryo is nothing more than a few cells WITH THE POTENTIAL to become a human. But those cellular clumps are not human. They are a part of the mother. They do not in any way resemble what we know a human being to be.
The way I see it is, debate your ass off whether these cellular masses have souls, there are many people who DO have souls, who are undeniably living, breathing humans who could benefit from cures that could be discovered from Stem cell research. Why deny THEM the cure?
I\'m sorry, in my opinion, an embryo (and a fetus) is not a human being until the minute it pokes it\'s bloody little noggin out of mommy\'s cha cha. The reason why is we grow attached to our loved ones. Any good parent would not think twice about sacrificing their lives for their child. A good parent will do whatever they can to make sure their child is healthy and stable. The reason why good parents do that (and why bad parents don\'t) is attachment. We are attached to our children because they have souls, personalities, and hearts. They tell us they love us (and show us before they can tell us:)). They humor us, make us smile, proud, mad, sad, happy, everything. It\'s that interaction that makes us human. We do not have this interaction with an unviable mass of cells. They are just that to us, cells. They cannot live outside of the mother. Thus, until they can, they are part of their mother\'s body physically. No amount of religious or moral ethos can change that.
Now, I am not an abortion advocate. I believe in abortion within reason. Rape victims, that sort. They deserve the right to choose, because they were denied the right of choice in conception. With consensual sex, such is not the case. If you can\'t support the child, you shouldn\'t have tried to make one. They should put the child up for adoption, there are many people who cannot bear children that would love to adopt.
...oops... kinda got off topic for a moment, sorry:D
Anyway, stem cells, for the good of people already alive, should be allowed. Elitist horrors about "harvested humans" mean nothing compared to the suffering some people endure everyday that this research could one day alleviate.
That is all.
No it\'s not.
This is nothing like what the Nazis did, and anyone who would even think so is an ignorant slob. I\'ve read the biography of Dr. Josef Mengele, the commandant of Auschwitz camp, who personally conducted experiments on over seven thousand inmates. His experiments included such insightful tests such as injecting dye into people\'s eyes to change their color, sewing living humans together, intentionally infecting them with tuberculosis and other diseases, that sort of thing. Mengele was a creature of pure evil and he conducted these experiments for his own twisted pleasures. This is NOTHING WHATSOEVER EVEN CLOSE to what scientists are doing with stem cells.
:bounce:
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I still don\'t understand why the can\'t use animal cells instead of human cells. I heard that even cow cells are the same as human cells until you add "stuff" to them. What I mean is, you can put the DNA of human heart tissue and put it into a cow egg and it\'ll still come out as human heart tissue. It\'s what\'s inside of the cell that makes things happen. This is sort of how cloning works...
I don\'t know why they have to use human cells in development to use for the cures. You know what? I have an article on this in a magazine. I\'ll read it and then I\'ll come back more informed...
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It is a living being, please:rolleyes:
It is a growing body, it is alive if it is growing. It is a growing human being, they don\'t have the potential for life, they are growing peices of life, and you can cut and destroy it growing, then they have the potential of life after you render the cells stopping from growing. The only way they would have the potential for life is if it isn\'t already working to build onto those cells.
Somepeople say "Women have a right to choose." You have your chance to choose, right when you start to get down and funky with your mate.
The major point I am trying to get accross: When you start to kill for the benefit of other people, then you are dealing with murder and war. How do wars start? Someone wants to have something someone else stands in their way, people want cures to these diseases, so scientists go out and kill for it. That is war right there, a war of murder, End of story. Bush made the best decision I could think of.
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Originally posted by Weltall
Hmph. What is an embryo? An embryo is nothing more than a few cells WITH THE POTENTIAL to become a human. But those cellular clumps are not human. They are a part of the mother. They do not in any way resemble what we know a human being to be.
The way I see it is, debate your ass off whether these cellular masses have souls, there are many people who DO have souls, who are undeniably living, breathing humans who could benefit from cures that could be discovered from Stem cell research. Why deny THEM the cure?
I\'m sorry, in my opinion, an embryo (and a fetus) is not a human being until the minute it pokes it\'s bloody little noggin out of mommy\'s cha cha. The reason why is we grow attached to our loved ones. Any good parent would not think twice about sacrificing their lives for their child. A good parent will do whatever they can to make sure their child is healthy and stable. The reason why good parents do that (and why bad parents don\'t) is attachment. We are attached to our children because they have souls, personalities, and hearts. They tell us they love us (and show us before they can tell us:)). They humor us, make us smile, proud, mad, sad, happy, everything. It\'s that interaction that makes us human. We do not have this interaction with an unviable mass of cells. They are just that to us, cells. They cannot live outside of the mother. Thus, until they can, they are part of their mother\'s body physically. No amount of religious or moral ethos can change that.
Now, I am not an abortion advocate. I believe in abortion within reason. Rape victims, that sort. They deserve the right to choose, because they were denied the right of choice in conception. With consensual sex, such is not the case. If you can\'t support the child, you shouldn\'t have tried to make one. They should put the child up for adoption, there are many people who cannot bear children that would love to adopt.
...oops... kinda got off topic for a moment, sorry:D
Anyway, stem cells, for the good of people already alive, should be allowed. Elitist horrors about "harvested humans" mean nothing compared to the suffering some people endure everyday that this research could one day alleviate.
That is all.
No it\'s not.
This is nothing like what the Nazis did, and anyone who would even think so is an ignorant slob. I\'ve read the biography of Dr. Josef Mengele, the commandant of Auschwitz camp, who personally conducted experiments on over seven thousand inmates. His experiments included such insightful tests such as injecting dye into people\'s eyes to change their color, sewing living humans together, intentionally infecting them with tuberculosis and other diseases, that sort of thing. Mengele was a creature of pure evil and he conducted these experiments for his own twisted pleasures. This is NOTHING WHATSOEVER EVEN CLOSE to what scientists are doing with stem cells.
:bounce:
I agree, :cool:
I think we should all look at the benefits instead of the supposed horrors of doing this type of research,... If i spill some blood, does that mean i have to collect that blood, and bury it with respect? The blood has my cells, is it conscious though? NO. Those embryos are not human beings, only a bunch of cells clumped together.
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Originally posted by OneGig
Acceptable:
Stem cells from discarded embryos, adults, animals, and umbilical cord blood
Cloning (within limits)
Designer babies using non-cloning methods (see note below)
Unacceptable:
Stem cells from embryos made expressly for that purpose
Cloning and designer babies combined, or either done illegally
*A good limiting system (IMO) for designer babies would be based on the Badge system from Paper Mario. The "Badges" (genes) would be called the same thing they are in Paper Mario, but they would have different functions and values, e.g.:
Defend Plus: Guarantees immune system health. (2)
Power Plus: Improves muscle strength and endurance. (3)
Happy Heart: Reduces chance of heart disease. (1)
Peekaboo: Reduces chance of eye problems. (3)
Chill Out: Prevents anxiety and stress-related problems. (5)
Deep Focus: Improves concentration. (5)
Close Call: Speeds recovery from surgery and trauma. (4)
The BP value of each Badge would be based on:
-The effort taken to find the gene
-The significance of the gene\'s benefits
-The potential risks in turning on that gene
The BP capacity within which the parents could "design" the child would be based on:
-The academic and financial records of the parents (indicates how well the parents can take care of the child)
-The genetic code of the parents (indicates which problems solved by Badges may or may not occur)
:)
I did write that last thing before going to bed. However, I was not tired. I admit to having crazy ideas. Also note that I fixed some mistakes above.
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Here\'s how I justify the BP value of these:
>Defend Plus: Guarantees immune system health. (2)
The gene for this should be fairly easy to find. However. it could cause hospitals to lose money.
>Power Plus: Improves muscle strength and endurance. (3)
This gene should be fairly easy to find, but it might have some risks associated with it.
>Happy Heart: Reduces chance of heart disease. (1)
The gene for this has already been found.
>Peekaboo: Reduces chance of eye problems. (3)
No comment.
>Chill Out: Prevents anxiety and stress-related problems. (5)
Any gene that enhances the brain will be difficult to find, and could have risks associated with it.
>Deep Focus: Improves concentration. (5)
See above.
>Close Call: Speeds recovery from surgery and trauma. (4)
This gene will be hard to find. It could cause hospitals to lose money.
Oh, and one more:
First Attack: Improves muscle coordination. (3)
Yes, I know this is really crazy, but I don\'t know what else to say...
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Originally posted by OneGig
Here\'s how I justify the BP value of these:
>Defend Plus: Guarantees immune system health. (2)
The gene for this should be fairly easy to find. However. it could cause hospitals to lose money.
>Power Plus: Improves muscle strength and endurance. (3)
This gene should be fairly easy to find, but it might have some risks associated with it.
>Happy Heart: Reduces chance of heart disease. (1)
The gene for this has already been found.
>Peekaboo: Reduces chance of eye problems. (3)
No comment.
>Chill Out: Prevents anxiety and stress-related problems. (5)
Any gene that enhances the brain will be difficult to find, and could have risks associated with it.
>Deep Focus: Improves concentration. (5)
See above.
>Close Call: Speeds recovery from surgery and trauma. (4)
This gene will be hard to find. It could cause hospitals to lose money.
Oh, and one more:
First Attack: Improves muscle coordination. (3)
Yes, I know this is really crazy, but I don\'t know what else to say...
wow, you got a different twist on life. :D
My motto is:
Survive no matter what. Learn and adapt or be a dead-end in the evolutionary game.
Humans have the ability to truly manipulate their well-being, they never had such opportunity before. I can picture people one thousand years from today, laughing at us, i mean when i think about "Death" in general, it makes me laugh. :rolleyes: I think people should do everything in their power to prolong and better their health/life. Maybe it is the hidden scientist in me, but hey, I would rather live 2000 years then live 65 years frail.
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Why would you bury your blood? Blood isn\'t a human life. You people argue an embryo is only a clump of cells but isnt that just what we are a big clump of specialized cells.
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It\'s a shame that human life has been diminished to the point that we now have partial birth abortions.
It seems anything goes when it comes to the life of the unborn. We hear the word choice thrown around by the left, and the N.O.W. gals, but where is the choice for the unborn child?
Weltall,
Why don\'t we say that a mother has the right to "choose" in the delivery room whether or not she wants the baby? The doctor can show the mother the baby and if the baby has brown eyes instead of blue the doctor can trash it.
Also, when did having morals become a bad thing?
Ace
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Weltall,
Why don\'t we say that a mother has the right to "choose" in the delivery room whether or not she wants the baby? The doctor can show the mother the baby and if the baby has brown eyes instead of blue the doctor can trash it.
Also, when did having morals become a bad thing?
You didn\'t read what I said. I made my views on abortion very plain, and partial birth abortions are murder, IMO. At that stage, the baby is taking it\'s first breaths. The nervous system and sensory functions are all working now, and it can feel pain. I do not like the idea of abortions after the second trimester, except when AND ONLY WHEN the mother\'s life is in danger, because the mother is a living breathing human, and is therefore more important to save than her unborn child. Before the third trimester, in cases of rape, a mother should have the choice whether to abort it.
As for morals, morals change. They have always changed and they will forever change. Once, in vitro fertilization was unnatural and immoral, today it is accepted by most people.
"If man were meant to fly he\'d have been born with wings."
That was once morality. Morals evolve with progress. End of story.
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lets not turn this into a debate on abortion issues alright
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It should be up to the parent(s) not the gay government or the church. Cause the government doesnt care about people and the church doesnt except anything. The church or government shouldnt decide who lives and who dies.
Actually... this world is ****ed either way...
1 - We accept stem cell research and we kill a few embryos and save lives
Adv. Save people who have deadly diseases
Dis. Killing of embryos
2 - We decline stem cell research and save embryos
Adv. Embryos are saved
Dis. People who hve diseases die
3 - If we accept it or dont except it, either way, there is still people living which will eventually cause over population so it doesnt matter either way, in the long run this world is di*ked over to destroy itself with its own people. We are a horrible species who dont care about anything but ourselves and people close to us. There are very few people in the world who care about things like the environment and polution and things like that.
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Anyone who supports abortion is wrong, either way, you wouldn\'t be here if your parents descided to abort you, to support it is wrong. These are lives people, we are trying to save them. Those people aren\'t going to DIE without stem cell research, they will still live on, and lives would be saved. I personally say they should get this all figured out on Cow Embryos and then go to humans, heck, they don\'t even know how to grow the body parts yet. Learn it all, then transfer the knowledge.
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Originally posted by JediMaster
Anyone who supports abortion is wrong, either way, you wouldn\'t be here if your parents descided to abort you, to support it is wrong.
I said DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A DEBATE ABOUT ABORTION ISSUES
mainly because alot of people have different views on the subject,
SO keep your self righteseous opinions on this subject tucked away deep inside of you
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Originally posted by ddaryl
I said DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A DEBATE ABOUT ABORTION ISSUES
mainly because alot of people have different views on the subject,
SO keep your self righteseous opinions on this subject tucked away deep inside of you
The reason that people brought up abortion is because this stem-cell thing and abortion are very similar. Man, this is a very complicated issue. And comparing youor blood cell, which you have quadrillions of, to a human fertilized egg isn\'t right. They are both cells, but it\'s like apples and oranges are both fruit, but they aren\'t the same. Your blood cell doesn\'t have the potential of becoming a living, human being. To take that potential away is just wrong.
Here\'s how the stem-cell thing works:
1. EMBRYO - An egg is fertilized or cloned to form an embryo. The embryo begins to divide
2. 1 TO 5 DAYS - The embryo dividesagain and again and takes the shape as a sphere called a blastocyst
3. 5 TO 7 DAYS - By this time embryonic stem cells are visible and are capable of developing into any tissue in the body
4. STEM LINE - The cells are removed and grown in a Petri dish. As they divide, they create a line of stem cells
5. TISSUE PRODUCTION - Using various recipes (sorry, that\'s the word they used) of nutrients and other factors, scientists hope to turn stem cells into any of the body\' more than 200 tissues, such as:
--> Pancreatic islet cells - Could provide a cure for diabetes
--> Muscle cells - Could repair or replace a damaged heart
--> Nerve cells - Could be used to treat Alzheimer\'s and Parkinson\'s disease and repair spinal cord injuries
That\'s what I found out about this whole mess. I still don\'t like it...(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.contrabandent.com%2Fpez%2Fcwm%2F3dlil%2Fnonono2.gif&hash=ae2d84e9c4de5082d292f64166a6be1bbf2c4f80)
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Sorry for that crazy analogy with Paper Mario Badges.
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Originally posted by EviscerationX
What I mean is, you can put the DNA of human heart tissue and put it into a cow egg and it\'ll still come out as human heart tissue.
Utter BS. The \'DNA of human heart tissue\'? Newsflash, DNA in all the cells of your body is the same. If you scientists could use cow eggs to do what you\'re saying, why wouldn\'t they? Cow eggs would be cheap to use, and no one would complain - or do you think these scientists are just evil and deliberately want embryonic stem cells out of spite.
I know this is a very sensitive issue with people, but stem cell research has incredible potential. What pisses me off though is when politicians sensationalize both the bad AND the good about stem cell research - and this filters down to the general public, most of whom aren\'t aware of the full facts or even the basics of genetics. I find it rediculous when stem cell research is compared to the actions of Mengele, and I find it equally rediculous when it\'s supporters say that it will provide cures for many diseases in only two or three years - it will take a lot longer than that.
Anyway, a couple of people mentioned cloning embryonic stem cells, and someone (I think) said that it\'s horrific to think of cloning babies for research purposes. Again, this is political spin doctoring - as EviscerationX\'s last post mentioned, cells are taken from the fertilized blastocyst after 7 days. What people have a problem with is whether or not that constitutes \'killing\' a human life and whether or not this blastocyst has a soul - sorry ddaryl, if this is overlapping into abortion - anyway, I\'m not here to tell you what\'s wrong or right with regards to that issue, that\'s to do with your personal beliefs, but I just wanted to post a picture of what a blastocyst (what is considered by some a human life) looks like after 7 days:
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.picsource.com.au%2FImages%2Fmed18.JPG&hash=5cc9f09d95a02c542e938214ee1fa3f48d2fa5f7)
There is no spinal cord, no brain, and no organs present at this stage of development.
I hope the link works, if not I\'ll find another picture or I\'ll scan one from one of the texts I have.
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It is still Human.
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Originally posted by Lavan
Utter BS. The \'DNA of human heart tissue\'? Newsflash, DNA in all the cells of your body is the same. If you scientists could use cow eggs to do what you\'re saying, why wouldn\'t they? Cow eggs would be cheap to use, and no one would complain - or do you think these scientists are just evil and deliberately want embryonic stem cells out of spite.
I know this is a very sensitive issue with people, but stem cell research has incredible potential. What pisses me off though is when politicians sensationalize both the bad AND the good about stem cell research - and this filters down to the general public, most of whom aren\'t aware of the full facts or even the basics of genetics. I find it rediculous when stem cell research is compared to the actions of Mengele, and I find it equally rediculous when it\'s supporters say that it will provide cures for many diseases in only two or three years - it will take a lot longer than that.
Anyway, a couple of people mentioned cloning embryonic stem cells, and someone (I think) said that it\'s horrific to think of cloning babies for research purposes. Again, this is political spin doctoring - as EviscerationX\'s last post mentioned, cells are taken from the fertilized blastocyst after 7 days. What people have a problem with is whether or not that constitutes \'killing\' a human life and whether or not this blastocyst has a soul - sorry ddaryl, if this is overlapping into abortion - anyway, I\'m not here to tell you what\'s wrong or right with regards to that issue, that\'s to do with your personal beliefs, but I just wanted to post a picture of what a blastocyst (what is considered by some a human life) looks like after 7 days:
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.picsource.com.au%2FImages%2Fmed18.JPG&hash=5cc9f09d95a02c542e938214ee1fa3f48d2fa5f7)
There is no spinal cord, no brain, and no organs present at this stage of development.
I hope the link works, if not I\'ll find another picture or I\'ll scan one from one of the texts I have.
Thanks for the pic, as all of you can see, that is not a human being, bunch of biological material which is dividing... ;)
If using stem cells means curing disease then i\'m all for it !!! :bounce:
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Lavan posted a good pic. As you can see that isnt a human being at all. Just the early stages of one.
Either way, though, sumthing is dying, either a couple fo cells wich will eventually urn into a human being or sumone who has a disease...
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Originally posted by FackinKubuss
Either way, though, sumthing is dying, either a couple fo cells wich will eventually urn into a human being or sumone who has a disease...
Exactly, which is why this is such a difficult subject to discuss because everyone has their own views on the subject and these a ground-in views that are very difficult to change. Personally, I feel that the existence of a central nervous system (and therefore a brain) would indicate \'human life\', and therefore I support stem cell cloning and research since at the particular stage of development that stem cells are harvested a non-specialized blastocyst exists.
However, I do realize that those cells have the potential to become a human being and therefore I completely understand how people can have the opposite view and regard stem cell research as bad.
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There are so many benefits that will come from stem cell research. Thats why so many people are fighting for it..
Almost every scientific advancement has been met with opostion. Even somtimes violent opostion. But we are all reaping the benefits today.
If you have a personal issue with this type of research, then 10 years from now refuse any treatment that came from this type of research..
I love how a lot of people are so self righteous when it comes to stuff like this.
Really, I understand that we need to keep in check scientific research and morality. Thats why we are having this debate. But the advancement of science is a necesity to the longevity of the human race..
And by studying cells in their forming state is necisary. The data that can be collected will save more lives then ones that never even formed yet..
If everyone is so pro life, then stop eating meat, stop cutting down trees, what give the human race the right to dictate what animal lives and which one does not..??? Why does a cow not have the same right to life as a human.?? Is not a bug one of gods creatures, then why do we have bug spray?? Answer me these questions and maybe I will change my mind on stem cell research..
This research is going to give us such an insight that it would be a violation to every humans right that are alive if we did not research it... And we are going to, its only a matter of time
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Sorry kirath,
I don\'t equate my cheesbuger or Christmas tree with a human being.
Plus, it seems that these researchers are selling this in a big way so they can get government funding.
Ace
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Well Kirath even though a cow and a bug are one of "God\'s creatures" they were put on the earth for a different reason than us. Cows are here to feed us and bugs do whatever bugs do which i have no idea what that is but being humans we have Gog given controll over them and will use as much bugspray as we damn well please. And not taking the treatment if it is available is not gonna save all the lives lost in the reasearch. Also when someone is prolife that doesn\'t mean they\'re vegetarians it is talking about human life.
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Originally posted by Tetrad
Well Kirath even though a cow and a bug are one of "God\'s creatures" they were put on the earth for a different reason than us. Cows are here to feed us and bugs do whatever bugs do which i have no idea what that is but being humans we have Gog given controll over them and will use as much bugspray as we damn well please. And not taking the treatment if it is available is not gonna save all the lives lost in the reasearch. Also when someone is prolife that doesn\'t mean they\'re vegetarians it is talking about human life.
The only thing lost in research is the opportunity to do more ;)
If god did not want us to play with biology he wouldn\'t have made us any wiser then goats and sheep.
Baaaaa look there goes a sheeple.
Humans should use their knowledge, not hide behind doctrine of one religion or the other. IMO.
Your soul shapes the lives you dream… :alien:
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Originally posted by Ace
Sorry kirath,
I don\'t equate my cheesbuger or Christmas tree with a human being.
Plus, it seems that these researchers are selling this in a big way so they can get government funding.
Ace
LOL Yes they are, because if they don\'t have government funding, they don\'t get to do research and there are no cures. Do you think they want government funding so they can take the money and go on holiday?
I find it funny that we have a pill to give you hard on and hair growth treatment but when we have a chance to treat crippling and even terminal diseases everyone flinches. Billions of dollars are allocated to weapons and the army, thousands of children die a day from malnutrition in the third world and no one does anything. But when it comes to stem cell research everyone suddenly grows a concience - \'ooo protect human life\', well what about the starving in the world?
This research is going to happen somewhere in the world NO MATTER WHAT, but it would be worse if some private conglomerate in [insert third world country not too big on democracy nor human rights] creates a cure to Alzheimers and Parkinsons, then patents it and then charges rediculous amounts for treatment across the board. If the governments fund the research at least cures to these diseases won\'t become solely an economic commodity.
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Originally posted by Lavan
thousands of children die a day from malnutrition in the third world and no one does anything. But when it comes to stem cell research everyone suddenly grows a concience - \'ooo protect human life\', well what about the starving in the world?
Hey Lavan you are right on the money. ;)
Human beings have a tendency to forget what they do not see or hear. They see a sack of microscopic cells without a soul/conscious, and they go ape-sh!t over it, while young kids starve to death, or die of Aids because they can\'t afford the nice "expensive" drugs.
Ignorance is a weapon best served without thought.
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Please don\'t tell me that I just now have a conscience. You don\'t know who I am.
I do not feel that my tax dollars should go to fund something that I find immoral.
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Let me ask this to those of you out there who feel that we should do what ever we need to do to cure diseases.
Where do you draw the line?
At what point do we say the life of one is more important than the other?
Ace
P.S.
Although this is a tough topic, I do respect your opinions.
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Originally posted by Ace
Let me ask this to those of you out there who feel that we should do what ever we need to do to cure diseases.
Where do you draw the line?
At what point do we say the life of one is more important than the other?
Ace
P.S.
Although this is a tough topic, I do respect your opinions.
Ace,
We should draw the line when it means that people want to clone themselves for parts, i have no problem with cloning just a hand, leg, eye, ear, etc... but not the brain...with a central nervous system. Everything else goes. ;)
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Originally posted by Tetrad
Well Kirath even though a cow and a bug are one of "God\'s creatures" they were put on the earth for a different reason than us. Cows are here to feed us and bugs do whatever bugs do which i have no idea what that is but being humans we have Gog given controll over them and will use as much bugspray as we damn well please. And not taking the treatment if it is available is not gonna save all the lives lost in the reasearch. Also when someone is prolife that doesn\'t mean they\'re vegetarians it is talking about human life.
Thanks, exactly my point.. If god gave us the skills and the ability to create bug spray and the power to dictate their lives then we should do STEM CELL research.. Because god gave us the ability to resarch it and the intelligence to understand the benefits of it..
Im glad we are on the same page.
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I said he gave us power over other animals such as cattle, I did not say we should destroy human life for our benefit. Human life is much more precious than a simple bug. Just cause we have the ability to do something doesn\'t mean we should. Hitler had the power to kill off the Jews that didn\'t make it right.
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Originally posted by Tetrad
I said he gave us power over other animals such as cattle, I did not say we should destroy human life for our benefit. Human life is much more precious than a simple bug. Just cause we have the ability to do something doesn\'t mean we should. Hitler had the power to kill off the Jews that didn\'t make it right.
Yeah, humans shouldn\'t do everything that pops into their heads, i mean Joseph Stalin starved at least 10 million people to death in 1928, now that was wrong.
I would give the scientist that cures Cancer/Aids with stem cells a nobel prize, not a grim place in history.
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Let me ask this to those of you out there who feel that we should do what ever we need to do to cure diseases.
Where do you draw the line?
At what point do we say the life of one is more important than the other?
Exactly. This topic is very scary. What if an egg that has the potential to become human was instead turned into a friggin\' hand or muscle tissue for somebody who lost a body part in a car accident. Body part, or living human being? Who\'s side are you on?
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Well Toxical we clearly have different views. I do not put an age on human life. Even if it is only an embryo I still feel it has the right to have a chance at life. You feel free to believe what ever you want. I still, however, feel that you are wrong.
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Originally posted by Tetrad
Well Toxical we clearly have different views. I do not put an age on human life. Even if it is only an embryo I still feel it has the right to have a chance at life. You feel free to believe what ever you want. I still, however, feel that you are wrong.
Yeah but you make comparisons to Sceintific research to atrosities commited by mad-Men.. I don\'t see the analogy there..
There has been questionable research all through the course of history. But today we are all repeaping the benifits of that reseach. Look at the nuclear bomb for example. Do you know how much research all the countries of the world got from that device?? Do you know that hundreds of things that make your life convienent today came from that scientific descovery..?? I don\'t see you complaining about that to much..
I hope you see my point and are not blinded by some have thought out religous consortum which does not really make sense outside your own mind.
I believe in human life as well.. I don\'t agree with you about how humans have the complete right to dictate other life forms, but ohh well.
:bounce:
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Originally posted by EviscerationX
Exactly. This topic is very scary. What if an egg that has the potential to become human was instead turned into a friggin\' hand or muscle tissue for somebody who lost a body part in a car accident. Body part, or living human being? Who\'s side are you on?
If you want hypothetical situations I\'ll pose one for you;
What if your 16 year old daughter is driving in her car and a drunk driver runs a red light and smashes into her car leaving her a quadrapelegic, in a wheelchair for the rest of her life, and dependent upon others for the rest of her life. 16 years old.
Would you be willing to put an arm around her and say;
"Honey, I\'d love for you to be able to walk again, to be able to use your arms again, to lead a normal human life, but I feel that this:
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.picsource.com.au%2FImages%2Fmed18.JPG&hash=5cc9f09d95a02c542e938214ee1fa3f48d2fa5f7)
that doesn\'t have a name, doesn\'t have a brain, doesn\'t have a heart, doesn\'t have a nervous system, and has been cloned millions of times in a lab from identical ones, is more important than you."
If you can say that then I respect your opinion (honestly), but for me that\'s the bottom line. Last summer I volunteered in the Alzheimer\'s ward of the nursing home where my mother works. Alzheimers is a f ucking evil sickness - I saw one guy there who fought in WWII, protected this country and he couldn\'t even tie his shoelaces. Every day he would get up, brush his teeth, get dressed slowly and then just sit at the side of his bed staring at his shoes until I came and tied them for him, and every ****ING DAY he would ask me what my name was and say that I looked familiar. He died last fall. To me, that guy is was important than a bunch of cells, and that\'s just one disease that could be cured. My mother wanted me to go back to volunteer this summer but I couldn\'t - it\'s too depressing and I still don\'t know how my mother does it day in and day out.
I\'m sorry if I\'m getting sensationalist with my post but this is something I feel strongly about - yet I understand and respect others\' opinions. However we in the western world spend so much money on **** like weapons, and our research dollars go to sh!t like Viagra, while millions of starving die every day. And then when we have a chance to cure diseases, to do good everyone says that life is sacred - yes it is, but what about the children that are dying of starvation while I write this tirade? I care about the people that are HERE and NOW, not a microscopic bunch of cells cloned in a lab.
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Well...um...:( I guess you\'re right...it\'s just a couple of cells without any central nervous system yet, or brain or heart. But...I\'m so confused...
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Kirath you are missing the whole point. First off my point was just because you have the ability to do something doesn\'t mean you should. Personally I feel that it is almost as much of an atrocity to destroy an embryo just because it will benefit others as it is what Hitler did. While I don\'t find the nuclear bomb to be something I am reaping benefits from of course I see that science and technology make my life easier. The only problem with your point is that human life wasn\'t purposely destroyed to invent plumbing. And I didn\'t mean that because I am human I have the right to take a gun sit on my porch and shoot every bird chirping in my tree because I feel like it, of course thats wrong. However if a mosquito attacks me don\'t you dare even tell me its wrong to kill it. As far as im concerned we as humans have the right and responsibility to take care and look after the animals. I don\'t believe that we have the right to cut down the rain forests and destroy a countless number of species but what can I do?
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This is an extremely complex issue. It\'s not the first in our history as humans and it won\'t be the last. Technology always develops faster than the morals that go with it. Look at surgery, waaaayyy back in time. It was considered immoral to do such a thing. In our modern world it is a daily occurance. Nobody thinks its immoral because we are playing god by saving that persons life. The fact is eventaully all of this technology that we see today that is immoral and wrong most likely will become commonplace in the future. As for the pro-life issue and bugs and other animals are put on the earth to serve us is considered by other religions as false depending on what you believe. That is what this all boils down to... Peoples beliefs. I will not include my own religious beliefs but I will say that people who are closed-minded by their beliefs are stupid. The church is run by people with their own opinions. If you agree with them thats great ,but do not beleive that because the church says it you must agree with it. Remember most wars are started by religions.... sorry for straying off topic there.
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but I will say that people who are closed-minded by their beliefs are stupid.
I don\'t think having a belief and sticking by that belief makes someone stupid.
I think we have to agree to disagree on this and many other issues. But I will and always will fight for my beliefs.
Ace
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I said if they are close-minded about there religion. Beliefs are a good thing. They give people hope and motivation. Without religion Many people would be "lost" and very depressed. I just think that people shouldn\'t have their religion blind common sense.
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IMO religion and politics should not mix, i don\'t want my preacher/priest/pope/rabbi whatever, making decisions for my kids who may be sick... I want choice, not fear of lightning from the gods, are we living in pre-historic times, or are we modern human beings? My mom also works at a hospital, and when i was growing up i used to visit her there, it is depressing seining so many people with so many ailments. Religion isn\'t even an issue with me, if i had to choose between religion and saving my kids, i would choose my kids any day.
I understand a lot of people dont\' feel the same way i do, and i respect that also.
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Why is this suddenly becoming a religious issue?
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Originally posted by EviscerationX
Why is this suddenly becoming a religious issue?
I think the Stem Cell issue is linked to religion. IMO, i mean Bush talking to the Pope about this is one example, ... :rolleyes:
Politics + Church = don\'t mix. :(
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I am only adding one thing to this discussion .
My father has a rare blood diease (wagners-grandalatoesis, I probably spelled it wrong). He has been sick since I was three years old and when I was five he had one of his lungs taken out. Since he only has one lung, he can no longer do a lot of things like go hiking / go to amusement parks, etc because he runs out of breath and gets sick. He also only has half his sight from the diease. If stem research or any kind of research can fix these things for other people, then I am all for it.
My mother has also had cancer, so I\'ve spent a lot of time in my life being sleeping in hospitals / visiting them. I\'ve seen a lot of the horrible sicknesses that come about. I\'ve seen them directly (family) and indirectly (just walkin\' by in the hospital and see\'ing people). If we can help cure or help a lot of these things, including people who lose their arms in wrecks ,etc than I am all for it.
Thats all.
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Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
I am only adding one thing to this discussion .
My father has a rare blood diease (wagners-grandalatoesis, I probably spelled it wrong). He has been sick since I was three years old and when I was five he had one of his lungs taken out. Since he only has one lung, he can no longer do a lot of things like go hiking / go to amusement parks, etc because he runs out of breath and gets sick. He also only has half his sight from the diease. If stem research or any kind of research can fix these things for other people, then I am all for it.
My mother has also had cancer, so I\'ve spent a lot of time in my life being sleeping in hospitals / visiting them. I\'ve seen a lot of the horrible sicknesses that come about. I\'ve seen them directly (family) and indirectly (just walkin\' by in the hospital and see\'ing people). If we can help cure or help a lot of these things, including people who lose their arms in wrecks ,etc than I am all for it.
Thats all.
:crying: :( I\'m sorry. Before they started this whole stupid stem-cell thing, i was intrigued by something I saw on the discovery channel, which I don\'t know why they\'re not working on it more instead of stam-cell research.
They take the DNA from yourself..and they can grow stuff like hands, feet, arms, etc. They can trick the cells into thinking that they\'re growing on a human body when they\'re actually growing in a testing tank. And then out of nowhere this whole stem-cell thing came about, and I\'m wondering why hey gave up on the other thing, and if they didn\'t, why they haven\'t even mentioned it.
I\'m confused...:( Oh well...I hope your family gets better L-I-C. Peace to you, man...
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Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
I am only adding one thing to this discussion .
My father has a rare blood diease (wagners-grandalatoesis, I probably spelled it wrong). He has been sick since I was three years old and when I was five he had one of his lungs taken out. Since he only has one lung, he can no longer do a lot of things like go hiking / go to amusement parks, etc because he runs out of breath and gets sick. He also only has half his sight from the diease. If stem research or any kind of research can fix these things for other people, then I am all for it.
My mother has also had cancer, so I\'ve spent a lot of time in my life being sleeping in hospitals / visiting them. I\'ve seen a lot of the horrible sicknesses that come about. I\'ve seen them directly (family) and indirectly (just walkin\' by in the hospital and see\'ing people). If we can help cure or help a lot of these things, including people who lose their arms in wrecks ,etc than I am all for it.
Thats all.
Sorry to hear that LIC. :(
Lets all hope for the best, and maybe one day soon, they will get this whole stem cell issue figured out, and people that need cures from this research the most will be cured.