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Playstation/Gaming Discussions => PS3 Discussion => Topic started by: rastalant on September 06, 2001, 06:19:47 AM
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http://www.computerandvideogames...m?sid=3339
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Burnout and Crash in head-on collision
Who said ECTS was boring? Two of the biggest driving games companies publicly revved up their engines to prove who could handle the most damage.
Once upon a time it was about frame-rates, scenery pop-up and licensed vehicles. Now it’s about who can trash their cars in the most outrageous fashion. Just before last week’s ECTS we showed first pictures of Rage’s destruction-heavy new Xbox driving game, Crash. Comparisons with Criterion’s vehicle-destroying Burnout sprang to mind. And not just to ours. At the show, the Rage boys had something to say on the matter too. In fact, we’d call it an outright challenge.
"I haven’t seen anything that can match our game," said Crash producer, Steve Pritchard as we got a hands-on feel of trashing cars left, right and centre. "We’ve had people saying their damage system on the car is great. Theirs is the best. We’ve said nothing because we’re developers and we know what we’re going to do. We’ve got 10,000 polygons (per car) which we can mangle, twist and deform. Everything hangs off, falls off, breaks off. We’re not afraid to go up against any other game."
And that, it seems, includes Burnout. "As far as I can tell with Burnout," he continued, "it’ll take a model – say your wing has been hit – and replace it with a damaged wing. But you can’t really tell. We’re taking the actual model and then… crunch! I’m quite confident we can beat anything else!"
Bold words indeed. So, like the sh*t-stirring little tossers we are, we pedalled our Smart Cars over to the Criterion stand to gauge the opinion of Burnout creative manager, Alex Ward. "Is Crash any good? It looks like Destruction Derby," he responded before being told of Rage’s claims of having superior pile-ups.
"Maybe they have. It’s Xbox right? The version of Burnout we’re showing hasn’t got the damage on. Ours is not a heavy physics-based game, it’s an arcade game. Look at Outrun, some of the best car crashes ever, the way the car flips." If Rage have got all sorts of cool deformation in there it’ll be brilliant. I just hope the game is as good."
C’mon, give us a fight!
"I think they’ve got ten cars on-screen like Gran Turismo, " continued Alex, shifting up a gear. "You can have a lot more polygons if you’ve got fewer cars. We haven’t, we’re tracking 305 cars on the course at any one time. It peaks at 13 million (polygons per second) and locks at sixty frames. So we’re throwing around a lot of poly power."
It was at this point Criterion challenged Rage to a race at the lights. "If they’ve got all that on the Xbox and Xbox is easier to develop for, let’s see what we can do if we ever develop on Xbox. Let’s see what they can do on PS2 and then we’ll compare them."
Excellent! Everyone likes a two-car race. Of course, in our bid to twist this story into something meatier, we have conveniently omitted Rage’s comments on how they’re pensive about Stuntman, and that they actually think Burnout does look "terrific."
And what do we think, having played both? Burnout is fast, real fast. And you feel extreme exhiliration avoiding traffic coming from every direction. And when you get hit, your heart drops out of your arse in shock.
Crash goes much more for a ballsy US feel. The crashes feel less fatal, but because the aim is just to destroy everything, you really feel heavily battered. It’s like a rugby scrum with cars.
In truth, very different games. Crash is set for release with the UK machine (currently penciled in for March) and Burnout hits PS2 on November 23.
Tom Guise
Wednesday, 05 September 2001 17:40 GMT
All at 60fps I cannot wait to get this game. Thats amazing if they can pull that off. Ps2 is a beast with polygons!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek:
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I remember someone said that PS2 couldnt do over 10mpps..
Was it Jumpy? ;)
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Okay. . .party. . .bonus.
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can you fix the link?
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(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.computerandvideogames.com%2Fnews%2F09_01%2F3345%2F1.jpg&hash=03efc339743154f309156b89730774387025df8a)
If that\'s what 13mpps looks like, then I am disappointed.
/ dm /
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Originally posted by datamage
If that\'s what 13mpps looks like, then I am disappointed.
/ dm /
No.. He said.. It PEAKS at 13million polygons when alot of cars are moving around..
"I think they’ve got ten cars on-screen like Gran Turismo, " continued Alex, shifting up a gear. "You can have a lot more polygons if you’ve got fewer cars. We haven’t, we’re tracking 305 cars on the course at any one time. It peaks at 13 million (polygons per second) and locks at sixty frames. So we’re throwing around a lot of poly power."
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Originally posted by Caspian
Okay. . .party. . .bonus.
Hey, how did you do that? What do I have to do to put my own sound?
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You can have a lot more polygons if you’ve got fewer cars. We haven’t, we’re tracking 305 cars on the course at any one time. It peaks at 13 million (polygons per second) and locks at sixty frames. So we’re throwing around a lot of poly power
I know alot of people are impressed with the 13mpps but I\'m much more impressed with the fact that they can track 305 cars and still maintain graphic quality, not to mention the great lookign crash physics
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Originally posted by ddaryl
I know alot of people are impressed with the 13mpps but I\'m much more impressed with the fact that they can track 305 cars and still maintain graphic quality, not to mention the great lookign crash physics
But with 305 cars, whats the A.I gonna be like?
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Originally posted by fastson
I remember someone said that PS2 couldnt do over 10mpps..
Was it Jumpy? ;)
No.
Anyways, I guess a 13mpps peak is impressive. the AI will probably be the greatest (especially with all those cars on screen), that car looks pretty cool, and the textures aren\'t too shabby.
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The cars are deformable I believe so alot of the geometry probably has to go into the cars just to make them "bendable." Who knows how much attention will be paid to the backgrounds though!
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I know the PS2 is powerful, but is it that powerful? I\'m also wondering what the AI for those 350 cars will be like because processing the AI for 350 cars will take a ton of power. Only time will tell though.
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They probably make all of them do the exact same thing. lol :)
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Originally posted by IronFist
I know the PS2 is powerful, but is it that powerful?
13mpps is not that powerful. First generation Xbox and NGC games are already push more than that.
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13mpps is still 216666 polygons per frame at 60fps, so its not bad. but theres prolly round 30K-60Kpolys per frame at normal scene with not too much stuff happening. "when own car is on view"
ps2 is very powerful for stuff like AI and other complex non-rendering stuff, becouse it can use first vector unit for stuff like that. so over 300 cars doesn´t sound too high, especialy if ai and car physics for cars faraway or out of view is degraded.
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Originally posted by Jumpman
13mpps is not that powerful. First generation Xbox and NGC games are already push more than that.
well...we should look at the amount of polys in regard to the console...so 13mpps in a PS2 second-gen-game is great :)...
...3-4mpps in a DreamCast game is Great...etc...
...but again...if we look at power as an absolute term...you\'re right :)
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13mpps is not that powerful. First generation Xbox and NGC games are already push more than that.
Rogue Leader is the only supposed game to be pushing near or above that number, but I haven\'t read about any X-box game pushing those numbers... do you know which ones they are?
/ dm /
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Originally posted by datamage
Rogue Leader is the only supposed game to be pushing near or above that number, but I haven\'t read about any X-box game pushing those numbers... do you know which ones they are?
/ dm /
I assume Halo, PG, and DOA3 are pushing somewhere near those numbers. I can\'t say for sure though, but they all look mighty fine.
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Burnout does look good to me though. Thats just amazing 13 mps at 60fps which imo is very impressives. Just imagine what 4th gen ps2 games will be pushing?:thepimp: :thepimp: :thepimp:
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This game looks ok,
But this quote is misleading.
I think they’ve got ten cars on-screen like Gran Turismo, " continued Alex, shifting up a gear. "You can have a lot more polygons if you’ve got fewer cars. We haven’t, we’re tracking 305 cars on the course at any one time. It peaks at 13 million (polygons per second) and locks at sixty frames. So we’re throwing around a lot of poly power
Tracking is not comparable to giving each car AI. It means the game engine knows where each car is in the virtual world. :rolleyes: Hope I’m wrong, but it smells of hype.
305 cars? WTF? They are tracking 305 cars, while
GT3 has a handful? Gimme a break, either they are on crack and hyping their game, or the PS2 is the most powerful piece of hardware on the planet. So that is why the PS2 can launch intercontinental ballistic missiles, riiiggghhhht. ;)
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To expand on what Teir said:
On a typical car game that does damaging a normal/undamaged fender is "replaced" by one that takes damage. For example, you drive with one computer fender, hit a wall/car and the normal fender is then replaced with a predetermined damaged fender.
Numbers used below are for eplanation purposes only!
Using the above method the cars fenders could have VERY few polygons. Maybe 20 or so. So the entire model of the car has a low to mid poly count, say 3,000.
Now, what this game does is soooo much more awesome, and that is why the poly count is not as noticable as some here have said.
The damage is all real.
The "normal" body parts of the cars are composed of LOTS of poly\'s. Say a typical fender would be 20 poly\'s, this game would have 120. All of the surface area of the fenders are broken up into tiny polygons, that way when you crash the fenders will crumble and bend at the seams of the tiny polygons... COOL HUH!!
Other racers would just replace the fender with a premade damaged one. See:)
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Originally posted by Jumpman
13mpps is not that powerful. First generation Xbox and NGC games are already push more than that.
I was not referring to the polygon pushing power, I was referring to the fact that it can do the AI for 350 cars at once. BTW, I think the PS2 will have games in the high 20s mpps before it\'s life is over.
Toxical:
Tracking is not comparable to giving each car AI. It means the game engine knows where each car is in the virtual world. Hope I’m wrong, but it smells of hype.
I\'m not sure if I understand what you are saying. Tracking 350 cars is easy and doesn\'t take any processing power really because the cars are automatically tracked when the data points are updated. It sounds like they are saying that each car has it\'s own AI and is moving all the time, and if this is true, that is very impressive. :)
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Originally posted by IronFist
Toxical:
I\'m not sure if I understand what you are saying. Tracking 350 cars is easy and doesn\'t take any processing power really because the cars are automatically tracked when the data points are updated. It sounds like they are saying that each car has it\'s own AI and is moving all the time, and if this is true, that is very impressive. :)
IronFist
This is what I meant,
Why would the developer give off-screen cars AI/physics/etc...? I would figure to save processing time, they would give on-screen cars AI, while just updating the progress/position/state(bumper fell off) of off-screen cars in the Virtual world. Now it would be cool if all cars would have AI throughout all of the game, even if computer cars are not on your screen. It would be great to see computer cars with individual abilities and racing techniques/skills race each other off-screen in the same way you or I would race the computer on screen. (hope that made sense. lol )
A game like that would be cool, even without fancy graphics. I guess I’m wary of developers hyping their creations, or maybe I’m trying to keep my hopes low in the event they lied about their game. ;)
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I assume Halo, PG, and DOA3 are pushing somewhere near those numbers. I can\'t say for sure though, but they all look mighty fine.
Hmm,. I hope they aren\'t pushing that much. And I doubt that they are. That would be disappointing. I expected much more with 13mpps. Ah oh well.
/ dm /
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Originally posted by Toxical
IronFist
This is what I meant,
Why would the developer give off-screen cars AI/physics/etc...? I would figure to save processing time, they would give on-screen cars AI, while just updating the progress/position/state(bumper fell off) of off-screen cars in the Virtual world. Now it would be cool if all cars would have AI throughout all of the game, even if computer cars are not on your screen. It would be great to see computer cars with individual abilities and racing techniques/skills race each other off-screen in the same way you or I would race the computer on screen. (hope that made sense. lol )
A game like that would be cool, even without fancy graphics. I guess I’m wary of developers hyping their creations, or maybe I’m trying to keep my hopes low in the event they lied about their game. ;)
I agree with how you are keeping your hopes low, because I don\'t want to be disappointed either. As long as it isn\'t noticable that they don\'t have real AI when off screen, it will still be great. If they do have real AI when off screen though, I will be very impressed with the power of the PS2. :)
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Originally posted by IronFist
So what do you think the cars do when they are off screen? Do they just stop and wait until you can see them before they start moving again?
Of course not...
But keeping track of opponent cars is not the same as maintaining true AI for them. I wish we knew for sure how they are "tracking their cars", tracking is the key word, not AI.
I\'m sure their cars will have predefined routes that they will traverse, not routes that are generated for each individual car....
When i play GT3, the cars are always doing the same thing every lap :snore: If those 305 cars have the same AI as GT3 has, then this is a mute topic. ;)
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the 305 cars are only beig tracked and are doing pre determined routes but this is still an impessive feat none the less
The game is based on racing through city traffic and such so complicated AI is not really needed. The AI would come from opponents cars. How many of those there are is the question, but I assume that the majority of these 305 cars are running regular traffic routes
I\'m also sure all these cars have crash physics which will be cool
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Originally posted by ddaryl
the 305 cars are only beig tracked and are doing pre determined routes but this is still an impessive feat none the less
The game is based on racing through city traffic and such so complicated AI is not really needed. The AI would come from opponents cars. How many of those there are is the question, but I assume that the majority of these 305 cars are running regular traffic routes
I\'m also sure all these cars have crash physics which will be cool
True, with 305 cars it does make a nice environment to race in,
I would be happy with TMB like graphics, and i hope the environments/tracks are just a cool/and big. ;)
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Doa 3 pushes 7--9 mpps from what i hear. Dunno bout Halo and PG. Nightcaster or whatever that thing was called is said to push 21 mpps though. But i think it looks ****ty
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7-9 MPPS for DOA3? wow thats great because it looks better than all PS2 games combined. I can\'t wait to see 40 million polygons per second... :)
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Originally posted by datamage
Rogue Leader is the only supposed game to be pushing near or above that number, but I haven\'t read about any X-box game pushing those numbers... do you know which ones they are?
/ dm /
Azurik is pushing 18mpps. HALO was doing around 7-9mpps. I dont know about DOA3, and PG.
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I think DoA3 looks like a updated version of DoA2.. But thats just me..
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Interview in EDGE101
Hamish Young, AI programmer, Criterion :
"On average, we\'re updating about 300 cars a frame, but actually on the larger tracks you can go past something like a thousand to 1500 cars a lap."
So there\'ll be a lot of insane swerving to be witnessed...
I\'m getting excited about this game, and it\'s out quite soon! Darn, cool. Everything looks so good, especially the collisions! Luvverly.