PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Knotter8 on September 16, 2001, 04:17:17 AM
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Caution : this thread is not about the late events themselves(WTC), nor a subjective view about the role of videogames to those events.
I came to this thread title because IMO late events have really altered the position of PS2. I name the tragedy of the WTC, late
theads such as \'why PS2 graphics are crap\' and the move of Shinji Mikami. It all began with the threads on this forum about alot of ppl feeling let down by the PS2 on graphics, I as well feel somewhat like that.
Then there was the tragedy of Tuesday. I think this will have a long term effect on VG\'s. (without making a judgement about that)
So to not show a lack of respect, developers are forced to alter their plans ; Konami is imo in a very difficult position because of the things that happened. Their MGS2 game will be released in their home country Japan, but a Western launch is at risk. MGS2 being a high profile PS2 game, a cancelling of that game would be a huge blow to PS2 and Sony. Even if it does release westside, I think the game will be altered and thus postponed so long, the time it reaches US/ Europe it will be dated and damaged.
To top it, we\'ve seen the move from Capcom to make the next 6 RE games NGC exclusive. Now that may be not such a big deal for SONY, in itself.
But a statement by Shinji Mikami himself ; that he didn\'t want his vision of RE on PS2 anymore because of it\'s technical restrictions, but on NGC because it\'s lotsa more powerfull.
These three points make me say that PS2 will have a very difficult time ahead. There were already rumours around the net Sony would speed up PS3 developement if more dissatisfaction with PS2 by developers was heard.
I\'m not saying PS2 will have some excellent games in the future, but it will have a difficult time, and NGC will shine. XBOX is still a big mystery for me, but maybe I will trade in my PS2 for a NGC when that console launches in Europe....
Knotter8:(
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NO WAY !!!
1. I don´t want to miss DVD !
2. There are still coming so many good games for PS2 and I don´t want to miss them !
3. Grafix will improve more and more !
4. I don´t like the Gamecubes concept (only a few games that interest me) !
5. I still have to pay the bank for my PS2... :D
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...consider, a big developer like Capcom moving away with a 6 game big franchise. Stating, doing so because they find the PS2 hardware inadequate.
Imo this is worrying ! (of course, PS2 gets Onimusha 2 and DMC, but the point is Shinji Mikami doesn\'t feel he can make his ultimate vision come true on PS2 thanks to it\'s complexity and limitations. btw he\'s not the 1st dev to say that.)
Knotter8
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oh dear........
what has happened to us that we can wait for a delayed game even though it has been put back for very good reasons.
What has happened to us when we think TECH DEMOS and STILL SCREENS make some of us want to trade in our PS2\'s
oh and what has happend to the Graphics !
i think the statment PS2 Graphics are crap is highly inacurate !
the releae of second and third gen games only highen my anticipation of new and games that are indevelopment for the PS2!
lets face it most of the scedules are desinged so that Sony can release games in line with the launch of the NGC and XBox !
and if you are still in dout then lets face it
the industry needs a "fight" between more that just 2 systems.
more systems = greater compention which = greater development of games = larger user base = cheaper games and hardware for all (NGC PS2 and X Box !)
Oh and PS
RESIDENT EVIL EXCLUSICE to the Nintendo ?
i don\'t think so
wasn\'t that what they said about RESIDENT EVIL CV on the Dreamcast after all :rolleyes:
and the origonal RE on the PSX
which has now been converted to a wide range of formats INCLUDING PC.
i rest my case !:D :D :D
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Come on people, Resident Evil is a tired franchise now.... It was cool with RE1, 2, and 3.... but now I want fresh NEW stuff like Devil May Cry.
If they want to rehash Resident Evil 500 times on the Gamecube... let them.
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It\'s not specific games. It\'s the comments made by developers and journalists about the limitations of the PS2.
Notice we never hear about the emotion engine anymore? What a bunch of crap and we got sucked into it.
The PS2 is not a revolution as promised, and people are now finding this out for themselves. I mostly blame Sony. Had Sony not gotten apathetic and designed the PS2 aggresively we would not be in this situation. Also, because Sony was spewing all these buzz words and empty promises that most people believed, we are now experiencing the let down and fall out from these claims.
The PS2 is not a bad system. And neither was the Saturn. The similarities between these two consoles is too strong to ignore (both hard to develop for, bad promises, developers publicly stating their discontent, franchises leaving one by one, etc.).
No RE is not a big blow, but in 2 years when developer\'s aspirations are truly high, will the PS2 be able to keep up, and if it can, will developers want to spend the extra time getting the power out of the PS2.
I hope so.
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Resident Evil Series is not such a big loss for me.. Cuz Ive grown pretty tired of the crappy gameplay it has..
Shoot
Look for 55 keys, put them in the correct order to open door
Shoot some more
Boss Fight
Run, opendoor ect.
BORING!
But if you really want RE to PS2.. This might cheer you up :)
Still hope? (http://www.fgnonline.com/playstation2/news/19936.html)
PS2 has the best support from 3rd party developers you could ever hope for..
So I see no need to buy another console! :D
But thats just me..
Let me show you and example of how the graphics are improving!
Eternal Ring 1st GEN
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fps2media.ign.com%2Fmedia%2Fpreviews%2Fimage%2Feternalring%2Feternalring_6.jpg&hash=80696663136f2000f483ab4c404fa5ccc0afc07e)
Baldur\'s Gate- Dark Alliance 2ND GEN
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.interplay.com%2Fbgdarkalliance%2Fimages%2Fscreenshots%2FBGDA_character_npc%2527s01.jpg&hash=2dbcf8b0934f9bb7712243d777ad99a5b88104c4)
Ridge Racer V 1ST GEN
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fps2media.ign.com%2Fmedia%2Fnews%2Fimage%2Fridgeracer5%2Frr06.jpg&hash=abf82485ba84b3db85e08f28e6642196eecbce22)
Gran Turismo 3 A-Spec 2ND GEN
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fps2media.ign.com%2Fmedia%2Fpreviews%2Fimage%2Fgt3japan%2Fgt3_12.jpg&hash=c661c63ecc9b32791c0c92cf03aca2a153685e82)
And so on :)
And sence when was it difficult to make pre-rendered backgrounds on PS2?
If GC is all that powerful, I think they could make the backgrounds 3D!
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Originally posted by Knotter8
But a statement by Shinji Mikami himself ; that he didn\'t want his vision of RE on PS2 anymore because of it\'s technical restrictions, but on NGC because it\'s lotsa more powerfull.
Can I get a link?
Watchdog:
The PS2 is not a bad system. And neither was the Saturn. The similarities between these two consoles is too strong to ignore (both hard to develop for, bad promises, developers publicly stating their discontent, franchises leaving one by one, etc.).
But there is still a couple of big differences.
1. The Playstation is a trusted name and hasn\'t done anything yet to lose any fans.
2. The PS2 has a 15 million userbase. That alone is reason enough for developers to continue to develope for the PS2.
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BG2:DA, MGS2, FFX
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franchises leaving one by one
You mean Abe.. And??
No.. PS2 still has many big franchises..
Maybe all of them arent exclusive.. But I dont care..
As long as I get to play them :)
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i think the ps2 has a bright future. witht the lineup of games coming out, how can it go wrong? wipeout fusion, FFX, and tons of other games are in the AAA list for ps2.
i dont see support for it dying. at all.
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Originally posted by Falcon4
i think the ps2 has a bright future. witht the lineup of games coming out, how can it go wrong? wipeout fusion, FFX, and tons of other games are in the AAA list for ps2.
i dont see support for it dying. at all.
Exacly..
PS2 has the brightest future of all 3 systems..
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Originally posted by fastson
Exacly..
PS2 has the brightest future of all 3 systems..
tru dat! All games for other systems don\'t look all that great.... Maybe 1 game on Xbox - Project Ego, and 1 game on GC - RE..... Then I look at all the incredibly fun games on PS2.....
WOWZAS!:D
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Originally posted by Watchdog
...Notice we never hear about the emotion engine anymore? What a bunch of crap and we got sucked into it...
Three letters: ICO
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quit crying you baby\'s ! :D mgs2 , SH2, FFX, GTA3, GT3 and so on and so on ... :D Ace of combat 4 , DMC and so on and so on :D
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IronFist
1. The Playstation is a trusted name and hasn\'t done anything yet to lose any fans.
It has now by capcom moving to NGC.
But i dont see the big deal capcom say they dont have enough power to do wat they want on the PS2 bu11sh!t look at FFX for instance look at those graphics, if Square can do it so can Capcom maybe they need to go and get lessons from the mastas SQUARE!!! anyway i just hope i get RE for PS2 in the future because there is no way im getting A Pretendo Ghey Cube just so i can play RE. Capcom better pull there fingers out of there A$$ if they want to get RE going.
cyas
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MOSTLY sequels to tired games, or new games in a tired genre. Graphics and horsepower that doesn\'t stack up against the newer systems.
I didn\'t expect to find any support on this forum. Enjoy your PS2s. :)
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Knotter, I\'m going to agree with you here. So far PS2 games and graphics have really bored me and lefted me totally disapointed. I know I can always count on NGC since Nintendo games have always been the most fun and enjoyable, atleast for me anyway. I always planned on buying a second console and since there hardly isn\'t any good DC games around here, I plan on buying another one. Either PS2 or Xbox. Right now Xbox looks to have the clear advantage. Don\'t let my insignificant opinion stop you from enjoying the games you like though, PS2 fans.
I find it ironic how PS2 fans have been eagerly been awaiting RE:4, but now since it\'s on NGC there coming out with these lame ass excuses for not liking it anymore. It\'s old, it\'s been done, yeah but *cough* most of your good games this fall are indeed sequals. Hypocrites.
Originally posted by fastson
Exacly..
PS2 has the brightest future of all 3 systems..
You see, that\'s called an opinion. If you want to say something like that, then dd IMO(in my opinion). Oh, and one more thing.
First generation NGC.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcubemedia.ign.com%2Fmedia%2Fpreviews%2Fimage%2Frogueleader%2Froguegoodness3.jpg&hash=51e5aa441b5b2f4859745079715d77d9edd1e29c)
First generation Xbox.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fxboxmedia.ign.com%2Fmedia%2Fpreviews%2Fimage%2Fdoa3%2Fbeach_05_sm.jpg&hash=4539aaeb1c8c60f6bbd94bb5b4ac512c270abe3f)
But i dont see the big deal capcom say they dont have enough power to do wat they want on the PS2 bu11sh!t look at FFX for instance look at those graphics, if Square can do it so can Capcom maybe they need to go and get lessons from the mastas SQUARE!!! anyway i just hope i get RE for PS2 in the future because there is no way im getting A Pretendo Ghey Cube just so i can play RE. Capcom better pull there fingers out of there A$$ if they want to get RE going.
cyas
Yeah, like calling the GameCube "GheyCube" will earn you a lot of credibility around here. Good work.
This obviously console debating material btw.
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X-Box and NGC will always have better looking games, that is a given, since they are launching more than a year later. DOA3 lookd better than anything i have seen on PS2. RE, pre-rendered or not, looks better than any game I have ever seen.
X-Box and GC also have their own installed games, just like PS2. People ALWAYS bring up the same games when talking about PS2:
MGS2, FFX, T4, VF4, SH2, DMC, ICO, etc.
but the X-Box and GC libraries are filling up and changing by day.
GC has:
ALL the RE games, Rare games (Perfect Dark, nuff said), Sonic Team, etc.
Every week it seems a new GC game gets announced.
X-Box has:
Panzer Dragoon 4, DOA3, JSR:F, Halo, Project Ego, Project Gotham, Morrowind, GUNVALKYRIE, Matrix Online, etc.
Games for GC and X-Box get announced all the time, PS2 fans have been waiting for the same titles since the console launched.
Eric Jacob
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Hm, I do have support.
It\'s true, we have been waiting for the same games since launch.
Also, the games I was waiting for (TTT, GT3, etc) have been dissappointments.
I remember lots of PS2 owners laughing at the GC specs. No one is laughing anymore. GC does indeed look good.
For my money though I think I\'d prefer Xbox style of games.
If I sell my PS2 with all my games now while the market is still high on them, I could afford either a GC or xbox...this has possibilities.
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depends on how many games you have for PS2 to sell.
But I would really wait until a few months after either console launches before you make any hasty decisions. Neither upcoming launch is looking too nice, but the games coming after are looking spectacular, but I think X-Box is looking much better than GC, but of course that is opinion, and I will have both eventually.
Eric Jacob
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Good \'ol fanboys..
Just waiting for an oppertunity to bash PS2 :)
But thats allright, you\'ll see who\'s the master in this generation!.. ;)
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Hmmm, I see a variety of opinions formed here, while I was
away. Good to see that.
I just wanted to point out a certain feeling I have about the way
how things are going for PS2. Call it a state of mind, if you will.
It\'s an adding up of late events which gives me a feeling about a possible trend I see happening with the PS2 as a gamesplatform, without looking specifically at, for example the RE franchise specifically, that \'left\' PS2 for six games.
What it all comes down to is the big question if developers (..and yes I know, there\'s still alot for PS2) will really get the most out of the machine, IN TIME. That is imho when XBOX and NGC launch.
To Ironfist :
From http://www.Coremagazine.com
Question: What are your thoughts on the GameCube hardware?
Mikami-san: "It\'s very powerful and easy in terms of software development. The one thing I want people to know is, we haven\'t necessarily received money from Nintendo for deciding to make the Biohazard series exclusive to GameCube. More importantly, we believe the GameCube is a machine which will definitely have a five-year life cycle, if not longer. So it will provide the stability needed for the future of the Biohazard series."
So, Mikami is of course not saying bad things about PS2, but he believes NGC to have a more stable long life cycle, which he suits best for his RE franchise, in favour of PS2.
In some way he\'s prefering NGC over PS2. Of course PS2 gets Onimusha 2 and DMC, but when devs move a franchise for SIX games and say stuff like that, I\'m gonna feel a little nervous.
(yes,...I\'m one of those ppl who can only afford one console at a time.)
What if this becomes trend ? If more devs choose to move a certain franchise to another console because they can only create their vision to the fullest on that console, other than PS2, that says something imo.
To top that, the issue about MGS2. I really question if that\'s gonna work out fine. You have to admit it\'s a killer app for Sony.
So I\'m gonna enjoy playing games such as Silent Hill2 and others on my PS2, but I\'m keeping my eyes on how things are going to work out for it. *hoping for the better*
Knotter8
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Originally posted by Knotter8
In some way he\'s prefering NGC over PS2. Of course PS2 gets Onimusha 2 and DMC, but when devs move a franchise for SIX games and say stuff like that, I\'m gonna feel a little nervous.
(yes,...I\'m one of those ppl who can only afford one console at a time.)
What if this becomes trend ? If more devs choose to move a certain franchise to another console because they can only create their vision to the fullest on that console, other than PS2, that says something imo.
To top that, the issue about MGS2. I really question if that\'s gonna work out fine. You have to admit it\'s a killer app for Sony.
Hmm..
Most of those SIX games are avalible for PSX and PS2 :)
Resident Evil1, 2, Nemesiss, CVCX.
4/6=66.6%
All they really add is new graphics to an really old gameplay..
And about MGS2..
I really dont know what to say.. The game is gonna be delayed untill 2002 (January or Feb.. I\'d guess!)
So I dont see how that could really hurt SONY?
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So, you\'re fairly optimistic about it fastson.
Anyway, thanks for the nice comparison pics.
Knotter8;)
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Originally posted by Knotter8
So, you\'re fairly optimistic about it fastson.
Anyway, thanks for the nice comparison pics.
Knotter8;)
Yes.. You know optimists live longer than pessimists ;)
About 3 years or so :D
No problem..
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Why does everyone think that waiting for 2 or 3 years for programmers to figure out PS2 hardware is ok? We weren\'t promised great games in 2-3 years. First gen GC and xbox games look and (by all accounts) play great. First Gen!
I loved my psx, but I feel very cheated by the PS2. It has been mediocre. I have more fun when I go to my girlfriend\'s house and play her brother\'s DC (Virtual Tennis, Soul Calibre and Crazy Taxi).
Granted beyond those 3 games there is little else on the DC market that really interests me, but at least the games have always been maxxing out the system.
I also find it ironic that the people calling others Fanboys are Fanboys themselves. Anyone who owns a PS2 and doesn\'t see the problems with the machine are either fanboys or completely out of touch.
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Originally posted by Watchdog
Why does everyone think that waiting for 2 or 3 years for programmers to figure out PS2 hardware is ok? We weren\'t promised great games in 2-3 years. First gen GC and xbox games look and (by all accounts) play great. First Gen!
I loved my psx, but I feel very cheated by the PS2. It has been mediocre. I have more fun when I go to my girlfriend\'s house and play her brother\'s DC (Virtual Tennis, Soul Calibre and Crazy Taxi).
Granted beyond those 3 games there is little else on the DC market that really interests me, but at least the games have always been maxxing out the system.
I also find it ironic that the people calling others Fanboys are Fanboys themselves. Anyone who owns a PS2 and doesn\'t see the problems with the machine are either fanboys or completely out of touch.
XBOX and GC are MUCH easier to program for which means they will be a lot closer to using thier full power in the first gen. I mean PS2 programers are just now starting to use and optimize the vector units which means they have been bassically using only half the hardware and bad optimizations.
All i gotta say is keep your PS2, and don\'t place any bets... this is gonna be one hell of a brawl.
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I don\'t care about the reason why the games have been sub-par. There wasn\'t a warning sticker on the box, nor in the manual. We\'ve been let down, and really, that\'s the short of it.
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Originally posted by Watchdog
Why does everyone think that waiting for 2 or 3 years for programmers to figure out PS2 hardware is ok? We weren\'t promised great games in 2-3 years. First gen GC and xbox games look and (by all accounts) play great. First Gen!
I loved my psx, but I feel very cheated by the PS2. It has been mediocre. I have more fun when I go to my girlfriend\'s house and play her brother\'s DC (Virtual Tennis, Soul Calibre and Crazy Taxi).
Granted beyond those 3 games there is little else on the DC market that really interests me, but at least the games have always been maxxing out the system.
I also find it ironic that the people calling others Fanboys are Fanboys themselves. Anyone who owns a PS2 and doesn\'t see the problems with the machine are either fanboys or completely out of touch.
Ok you say you feel cheated, and that you shouldnt have to wait 2-3 years for good ps2 games, well who said it was gonna be that long, good games are already coming to the ps2 this winter so stop complaining and start playing games
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WHat the hell were you just talking about?
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My point is that good games should have been out right from the start.
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Originally posted by Watchdog
My point is that good games should have been out right from the start.
But your definition of "good games" is not the definition of "good games." I loved the launch games. I played TTT, Timesplitters, and SSX to death. :) Just because you don\'t like what the PS2 has to offer doesn\'t mean the PS2 isn\'t a great system.
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Originally posted by IronFist
But your definition of "good games" is not the definition of "good games." I loved the launch games. I played TTT, Timesplitters, and SSX to death. :) Just because you don\'t like what the PS2 has to offer doesn\'t mean the PS2 isn\'t a great system.
Word my man.. WORD!
Yeah.. I loved SSX, TTT and Timesplitters.. All those were/are launchtitles..
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Yes, well you guys are the minority.
SSX was good.
TTT was nothing new except graphics--the game was a dissappointment in the eyes of most hardcore tekken players. It was ok.
And timespliters was not a good game. Bad framerate, and nothing compared to any PC game of that genre. The single player was a complete joke. Multiplayer was better, but, again not on the same scale as PC shooters.
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My vote is that PS2 is doing just fine :)
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Originally posted by Watchdog
Yes, well you guys are the minority.
SSX was good.
TTT was nothing new except graphics--the game was a dissappointment in the eyes of most hardcore tekken players. It was ok.
And timespliters was not a good game. Bad framerate, and nothing compared to any PC game of that genre. The single player was a complete joke. Multiplayer was better, but, again not on the same scale as PC shooters.
So don\'t play PS2 if you don\'t like it. Nobody is trying to make you...
Btw most tekken fans I know loved TTT, and my buddies and I had a pretty good time with timesplitters. It was a lot easier to set up a game than to network 4 PCs. Not everybody enjoys playing agianst others online. I wanna play against my friends without having to set up my 10baseT everytime. I liked Timesplitters for that.
You are a little to hard on graphics anyway. Most games on PS2 look pretty good... there are certainly no better looking console games on any other system out. And by the time there is, there are going to be a pretty kick ars selection of nice looking games. And I think that VF4 looks as good as DOA3 if not better in it\'s own way (certainly more realistic, less cartoony). I dislike it when people prejudge and expect everyone else to do so also. I am satisfied with my PS2 so far, I always figured it would be a long road of mastery for the programers.
If you wanna sell your PS2 thats fine, but you will most likely regret it a little farther down the road. I will own all systems ,(they are already paid for) because I don\'t like to lose out on good games because of brand loyalty or becuase you think soemthing may be better down the road. There will always be better hardware down the road, will it be XBOX or GC, maybe... but we haven\'t seen PS2 shine in it\'s strengths yet either. I never expected to see full power right a way. With Xbox and GC you get pretty close to full power early on. So if 2nd gen PS2 games are close to GC and Xbox 1st gen, than I am already impressed. :)
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"if you don\'t like it don\'t play it"
Has to be the stupidist statement that people make during console debates. Moving on...
"You are a little to hard on graphics anyway. Most games on PS2 look pretty good... there are certainly no better looking console games on any other system out."
I agree that PS2 games look "pretty good". First gen GC and Xbox games look immensely better than anything on or coming from the ps2--this debate is old and it\'s (almost) universally agreed that the PS2 can\'t match the visuals of any of the other next-gen consoles. PS2 was supposed to be a revolution, it was supposed to be what the xbox and GC are (in terms of graphics) and have revolutionary games. As it is now, it has pretty good graphics and rehashes and sequels.
Again you are content to wait with medicore games until they figure out the system. Here\'s my stock comparison: If you buy a porshe, would you be content to be only allowed to drive it at 60mph for the first two years that you own it? Of course not, why are you content with sub-par games from the PS2?
Sure TTT was fun for a while, but it wasn\'t an upgrade from the previous game in the series except for a graphical tweek. That is not acceptable.
It\'s not tough to set up a network of PCs, plus you only have to do it once, not "everytime". It\'s easy to find your friends online. You don\'t have to settle for a small window on a tv, framerate problems etc. This is a worthless debate, the only advantage of have 4-way split screen is that your buddies are sitting right beside you. But that is often ruined by bad framerate and a knowledge of where the other players are. This debate isn\'t what this thread is about so I\'ll drop it there.
I have not the time nor the inclination to own all systems. You know, I seem to hate the PS2, that\'s not true. I have enjoyed it, but I have never been overwhelmed by any one aspect of it. The NES, SNES/Genesis, PSX were all great leaps ahead in gaming. The PS2 isn\'t.
Besides I am not alone with my opinions--there is a reason why retailers are growing frustrated with the amount of PS2 software that isn\'t selling, and why the Japanese use the PS2 primarily as a DVD player. The reason is the quality of the games.
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I\'m going to add a couple things to what PahnCrD said.
Originally posted by Watchdog
SSX was good.
*cough*in your oppinion*cough*
IMO, and in a lot of other people\'s oppinions, SSX was great. It was the game that made all snowboarding games evolve. It was a much needed change to the old snowboard-down-a-halfpipe trend.
It got an EGM gold award with four 9/10s.
It got an almost perfect score from Gamepro. two 5s, and two 4.5s.
It got a 10 from PSM.
You are the one who\'s in the minority now.
TTT was nothing new except graphics--the game was a dissappointment in the eyes of most hardcore tekken players. It was ok.
TTT was a game for only the hardcore gamers. I don\'t know what you\'re talking about. The reason most reviewers bash it is because it wasn\'t new enough. They didn\'t understand that it wasn\'t supposed to be a new thing. It was a game made to make all hardcore Tekken fans happy -- and it worked. Why do you think a lot of hardcore Tekken players won\'t give up TTT and move on to Tekken 4?
And timespliters was not a good game. Bad framerate, and nothing compared to any PC game of that genre. The single player was a complete joke. Multiplayer was better, but, again not on the same scale as PC shooters.
The framerate never dropped below 60 FPS. They used a technique to make the graphics not as good when tons of stuff was happening to make sure that the framerate never went below 60 FPS. I think you were misinformed. Everything else in that paragraph is your oppinion.
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"if you don\'t like it don\'t play it"
I second that :)
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Originally posted by Watchdog
[B
It\'s not tough to set up a network of PCs, plus you only have to do it once, not "everytime". It\'s easy to find your friends online. You don\'t have to settle for a small window on a tv, framerate problems etc. This is a worthless debate, the only advantage of have 4-way split screen is that your buddies are sitting right beside you. But that is often ruined by bad framerate and a knowledge of where the other players are. This debate isn\'t what this thread is about so I\'ll drop it there.
[/B]
Are you rich... I am not. When I set up a network my friends must bring their own PCs. And online gaming, can you all go to the bar or dennys\' and BS about what you have just played.
Another thing, "If you don\'t like it, don\'t play it" is the words I live by. I hated mario 64 so I didn\'t play it much. Didn\'t like zelda 64, so didn\'t play it. There are many AAA titles I didn\'t like at all, but I didn\'t try to push my views on other people. You say all of your views are widely accepted, but not on this forum... maybe you mean on the GC forum and the Xbox forum. But at least they\'re over on their own boards. You are not going to convince me of what games I like, or what games look good. In fact I have yet to see any games on the other systems I believe to be out of the PS2s cababilities. I don\'t have a crystal ball, and niether do you. You can predict the future, by whatever means you want, but it doesn\'t make it right.
As for the PS2 not being a revolution. It is a revolution, so much so that the programmers don\'t understand it. (If someone could post a link to that arstechnica essay on the ps2 and dynamic hardware). Sony was brave for going with dynamic hardware.
Oh and one more thing, I like playing all my old PS games on my PS2. Not related but a neat bonus.
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*caugh* fanboys *caugh*
Of course everything is my opinion--that\'s a stupid thing to say. and of course you can have your own opinion, this is a debate, and I\'m stating mine.
Whatever. Yes I agree about SSX, I understated it.
TTT was a dissppointment to hardcore players because it hadn\'t changed and got boring quickly.
I just loaded up timesplitters again and in 4 player mode it DOES slowdown and it does drop frames and it does lose quality. It didn\'t drop frames as much as I remember (haven\'t played it in a LONG time), but it still does and it is noticeable when there is lots of stuff going on. Anyway, this wasn\'t a horrible game, but when there are many better shooters out there that I can play in the next room it is does not shine.
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I\'m getting pissed at waiting for new games, i don\'t even give a sh!t if they look better then MGS2 or DMC, i just want "GOOD" games, now, not a year from now, or 2... NOW!
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Besides I am not alone with my opinions--there is a reason why retailers are growing frustrated with the amount of PS2 software that isn\'t selling, and why the Japanese use the PS2 primarily as a DVD player. The reason is the quality of the games.
That is a story of long past. If you see the sales charts for the past 6 months you will notice that the PS2 is dominating in software sales.
/ dm /
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Originally posted by Watchdog
*caugh* fanboys *caugh*
What is your reasoning behind this? I don\'t quite understand. Isn\'t it possible to love the PS2 and want what\'s coming to the NGC and Xbox? I am a gamer, nothing more. Don\'t be so quick to judge.
TTT was a dissppointment to hardcore players because it hadn\'t changed and got boring quickly.
I have started a poll over at TekkenZaibatsu to see what they, the most hardcore Tekken players in the world, think about TTT. We will see.
I just loaded up timesplitters again and in 4 player mode it DOES slowdown and it does drop frames and it does lose quality. It didn\'t drop frames as much as I remember (haven\'t played it in a LONG time), but it still does and it is noticeable when there is lots of stuff going on. Anyway, this wasn\'t a horrible game, but when there are many better shooters out there that I can play in the next room it is does not shine.
I prefer to play Quake II over Timesplitters, but that was when I had access to a network of computers. Now I have to settle for a console FPS, and Timesplitters is the best console FPS I have ever played. It is extremely fast paced and very fun. I have never noticed the framerate decreasing, so it obviously isn\'t that big of a problem. I can\'t wait for the sequel.
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They are dominating the charts because there is no competition.
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Originally posted by Watchdog
SSX was good.
Good?! Good?! My man listen to what my girl Elise has to say..... :D :D :D
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Originally posted by Watchdog
They are dominating the charts because there is no competition.
That wasn\'t what datamage was saying. He was proving you wrong about the developers being frusterated with PS2 game sales. Try to not twist things around like this.
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Whoa... I can\'t believe I ignored this thread. I\'ll be back later to deal with you Watchdog. ;) Stupid English essays suck monkey crotch.
Before I do return, I do encourage you to read two topics before responding any further. The first is about the opinions and views of the casual gamer vs the hardcore gamers. That thread can be found here: http://194.47.16.181/forums/showthread.php?threadid=12798
Secondly, I\'d like you to read the thread below that Ironfist posted awhile back dealing with the debate that is present here: Graphics. Please, read it in its entirety. http://194.47.16.181/forums/showthread.php?threadid=13628
I\'ll be back later tonight to respond more specifically to any new comments made.
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I think the Ps2 is doing ok (for now :confused: ) I just picked up the latest official playstation mag which came with a playstation 2 demo disc. Included on this disc was a demo version of a game called ICO :eek: All I gotta say is that I can\'t wait for this game. I played a level in that game that showed off a windmill near a big pool of water which included beautiful reflections of the scenery. It\'s getting better (ps2 graphics). But not just the graphics. The game includes some cool features and gameplay.
But I agree. How much patience do developers have left? I\'m sorry, but it\'s only logical and understandable for a developer to want to move to a console that may be easier to develop for and achieve the same quality graphics (if not better!) instead of going through the blood, sweat and tears the ps2 brings.
IMO, Resident Evil leaving the PS2 is not a big loss for the PS2 but a huge gain for the Gamecube IMO. I don\'t care how old the series is because to move a highly respected game/series to a console because you think the console (GC) can achieve the vision you\'re looking for says a lot.
It\'s going to be interesting to see how well the PS2 holds up maybe 8-12 months after the other consoles are released. I mean will developers be able to tap the PS2\'s full potential after this time period? Because by this time the GC and Xbox graphics might be..... :eek: :eek: :eek:
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i think that the developers will flock to the place where the fanbase appeals to their game. where they will make the most money.
but you must realize, that if gamecube and z boz are soo much easier to develop for, they must be able to get more out of the system earlier. many developers are still workign with the ps2 to try and tap its ower potential.
but no doubt, the x box\'s graphics will surpass the ps2\'s.
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Originally posted by wiseboy
But I agree. How much patience do developers have left? I\'m sorry, but it\'s only logical and understandable for a developer to want to move to a console that may be easier to develop for and achieve the same quality graphics (if not better!) instead of going through the blood, sweat and tears the ps2 brings.
IMO, patience has nothing to do with it. Like Falcon4 said, "developers will flock to the place where the fanbase appeals to their game." The developers won\'t give up on the PS2 for one reason and one reason only, its 15 million userbase. If the PS2 was released at the same time as the NGC and Xbox, it wouldn\'t have a chance and would end up like the Saturn (a dead system with lots and lots of untapped power). But because it has such a huge userbase already, developers know it is worth the effort to make games for the PS2.
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No, the PS2 isn\'t going to die. That\'s never going to happen. It\'s the games. Where they go first, how much better they look and perform, how much quicker they come out.
Let\'s just talk facts then, not opinions.
Developers have never sang the praises of the PS2 hardware, this is the opposite case for the GC and xbox.
The GC almost certainly will have a user base in the multimillions. The xbox too should have a healthy user base. Two to three years from now if two of the consoles have comparable units sold (which isn\'t a fact, but it is likely), where are the developers going to go then? Are they going to work harder and put extra hours into producing a PS2 game or are they going to go to a platform that is more hospitable and get their game out faster so they can make more money and start a new project sooner?
What is the casual consumer going to think when he/she sees the same game running on multiple platforms and sees that the PS2 doesn\'t look as good. What happens when PS2 owners see that their firend\'s xbox/gc looks better or worse yet, has games that aren\'t possible on the PS2? Loyalties will change and rival numbers will rise. The casual gamer buys because of graphics. He/she doesn\'t know that developers are finding it difficult to tap the power of the PS2. And therefore wouldn\'t be inclined to wait and see like so many here are.
Really, after the first six months of a consoles life, it\'s all about the casual gamer. Hardcore fans already have the system of their choice and have no power. If one of the other two (GC xbox) are successful, the PS2 is in trouble.
Munch is gone, RE is gone, ID is gone on record saying the new Quake and Wolfenstein aren\'t possible on the PS2 hardware. Likewise Epic has said that the new Unreal game would have to cut some effect to fit it within teh PS2\'s memory limitations. Blizzard is looking at consoles development now since the xbox has become a reality (pretty safe bet it\'ll be the xbox since no word of anything before this). This is a trend, and these are big companies with lots of power and fans speaking out in public about the limitations of the PS2 hardware.
All this talk about launch games, and sell through is all moot. This year will prove nothing in terms of this argument. It\'s two to three years down the road (when the real money is made for console manufacterers) that matters.
The PS2 is slipping--that much is undeniable. How far is what we are debating here. It\'s time to hedge our bets.
I\'ve taken this argument much further than I had ever intended. I own a PS2 and obviously want to see it succeed, but no one here is really debating the issue. Everyone is saying the PS2 is fine. I\'m quite happy with it. The graphics are nice enough for me. ETC. It\'s not all fine and good in the land of Sony. They are feeling the heat and have lashed out against MS (pretty telling how secure they really feel at the top).
If people keep ignoring the issue and maintain this kind of apathy then why would Sony do anythign differently the next time?
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With the new developement tools going out to the PS2 developers, the PS2 will be a lot easier to program for. For example, Vector C is a new tool for programmers to use to be able to use a lot more of what the PS2 has to offer a lot easier. Here is the Press Release (http://www.codeplay.com/press/ps2rel.html) and More Info (http://www.codeplay.com/aboutps2.html) about Vector C. (thank you Fastson for bringing this info to these forums) In two years from now, the Xbox, NGC, and PS2 will probably be on equal grounds in terms of programming simplicity. The programming difficulty won\'t be a factor then.
Do not underestimate the power of the PS2. It has a very good chance to match or surpass the Xbox\'s and NGC\'s graphics. (but again, graphics is all an oppinion thing anyways. Thank you Ryu for posting those two links in your post. If anyone hasn\'t read those two links, do it now.) I\'m sure you\'ve heard this many times, but there is a lot of untapped power still left in the PS2. EA has discovered how to do in game surround sound, which until a couple weeks ago, was thought impossible. Source: Click Me. (http://216.234.188.15/news/newsstory?idnumber=000791) One quote that I absolutely love from that last link is, "Is it just me, or does PS2 just keep proving all its critics wrong over time?" :)
You have seen what the PS2 is capable of with Jak and Daxter. You said it yourself, "I chang my stance from totally not interested to curiously optimistic." (Well, it\'s a start :) You will soon be converted into a JAD lover. :)) Just imagine what the games will look like in two years. Jak and Daxter quality graphics will be a lot more common, and the great developers now will be surpassing JAD graphics then. I don\'t think that Sony has anything to worry about right now or two years from now.
BTW, here are the first results of "Was TTT a disappointment?" coming from the most hardcore players in the world:
YES: ||||||||||||||||||||||||| (0 votes)
NO!: ||||||||||||||||||||||||| (7 votes)
It looks like the hardcore do like TTT. So you can put your "the game was a dissappointment in the eyes of most hardcore tekken players" argument to rest. Go here (http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19730) to see the results for yourself.
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Originally posted by Watchdog
* No, the PS2 isn\'t going to die. That\'s never going to happen. It\'s the games...... *
Let\'s just talk facts then, not opinions.
so...even the statement "GC and X-Box will never die" is only an opinion...and not a fact...because you can enumerate a lot of motivations why both will survive and I could easy destroy them...exactly like you could do in the case of the fate of PS2 ...right? After all,we\'re making opinions,assumptions,conjectures...right?
Developers have never sang the praises of the PS2 hardware, this is the opposite case for the GC and xbox.
Some don\'t dislike PS2 hardware...some said that developing for PS2 will get easier and easier...some said "the more we develop for this machine...the more we like it"...and some "with 2 extra years developing for PS2 will get as easy as developing for PSone"...
The GC almost certainly will have a user base in the multimillions. The xbox too should have a healthy user base. Two to three years from now if two of the consoles have comparable units sold (which isn\'t a fact, but it is likely), where are the developers going to go then?
PS2 installed base before the release of FFX = 14.95 Millions(give me a break if I\'m wrong)...and I\'m confident that Sony will release 30 Millions Units by the holiday season...so...when the price will drop and drop...great games will come...and people will find games at 5$ on all the Moroccan\'s stalls(you forced me to say that)...don\'t you think the user-base will rise more and more...and with 2,3 extra years from now on...to make up for the delay could be impossible for both X-Box and GC...it\'s only another point of view...right?
Are they going to work harder and put extra hours into producing a PS2 game or are they going to go to a platform that is more hospitable and get their game out faster so they can make more money and start a new project sooner?
You\'ve got a good point...but it\'s not the whole story...look at EA...developers are interested in making money...and I think most of them won\'t waste their time to fully push every piece of hardware...rather they will develop similar versions with slight difference for all the consoles to not renounce any huge installed user-base...for example...PS2\'s one!
What is the casual consumer going to think when he/she sees the same game running on multiple platforms and sees that the PS2 doesn\'t look as good. What happens when PS2 owners see that their firend\'s xbox/gc looks better or worse yet, has games that aren\'t possible on the PS2?
Well...the same PSX owners thought looking at N64 games...
If people keep ignoring the issue and maintain this kind of apathy then why would Sony do anythign differently the next time?
I\'m not so sure about the graphics-issue...right now I don\'t know if developers will be able to use the MPG2-textures compression(8:1,10:1) in game...let\'s wait and see....
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Bah, net polls mean nothing at all. It\'s a game with nothign new, but like I said in my last post, that isn\'t going to affect anything anymore.
I never said the xbox or GC will never die and I admitted that sales estimates were conjecture.
Releasing dev tools does make it easier to develop for a system, but it also limits the amount of power that you can tap from it. Saturn had an assortment of tools that skilled devs didn\'t use. DC had the MS os that produced mostly crappy games. Dev tools are an imperfect solution to a complex problem.
Also, you make a fairly obvious conclusion that
"In two years from now, the Xbox, NGC, and PS2 will probably be on equal grounds in terms of programming simplicity. The programming difficulty won\'t be a factor then."
But this isn\'t the case. Right now dev teams are struggling to figure out ways to get their through put to respectable levels. But even when the devs figure it out, a new game is a new game, they are like organic entities in a way--unique challenges with unique solutions. Therefore, while the prior knowledge will definately help it will not solve their problems. Also, because of the untraditional archetecture of the PS2 devs have to rethink every project that they do. With conventional systems, coding for multiple consoles is relatively simple but the PS2 will take a very time intensive process of rethinking. Even when all this is done, it still will take longer for teams to publish their games because of the obsticles of the PS2 hardware.
And let\'s not even speak of the RAM issues...Also, the xbox has a harddrive (for better or worse) and a modem and four joystick ports. These are costly addons that we have to purchase right now. Only a fraction the game community buy addons (I forget the figure but it is miniscule) let alone extra joysticks! Therfore are these addons aren\'t always going to be considered by devs when developing a game. Also, if the deadline is coming on a game that wanted to have harddrive support, what do you think will get cut? xbox devs do not have this concern because it is prepackaged.
Right now devs are onboard because really the PS2 is the only viable system , but like I said if either of the other systems succeed (and it is reasonable to suggest that at least one will) the PS2 will face a tough challenge. Stick it out with the PS2 or go with a platform that offers a familiar architecture so you can spend less time fighting with the metal and more time realizing your vision.
You make a valid point that EA, and other companies (SEGA, Acclaim, etc) will make games for all systems, but the problem is that small innovativestudios cannot always afford to publish to all platforms. Who are they going to chose (disregarding buyouts)?
I would also say, in rebuttal of the point that the N64\'s graphics didn\'t lure potential psx owners with a couple points.
N64 had very little 3rd party support (equalling far fewer games).
N64\'s graphics were really not that great. Sure it was smoother looking, but the draw distance and texture detail was quite bad.
Neither of these points will be valid concerning the GC and xbox.
It\'s a slippery slope for the PS2 and it only goes one way for Sony. Sony will have to get lucky and really pull up their socks if they want to remain the clear favourite.
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Ps2 hard to program for? No more!
Press Release (http://www.codeplay.com/press/ps2rel.html)
Details (http://www.codeplay.com/aboutps2.html)
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Originally posted by fastson
Ps2 hard to program for? No more!
Press Release (http://www.codeplay.com/press/ps2rel.html)
Details (http://www.codeplay.com/aboutps2.html)
\'
that is very cool fastson. the article is amazing i hope it works as well as it says. if they do that, they are talking about boosing processor speed and capability.
i wonder what they will be able to do with that.
would it surpass gt3 and MGS2?
if so, holy crap.
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Originally posted by Falcon4
\'
that is very cool fastson. the article is amazing i hope it works as well as it says. if they do that, they are talking about boosing processor speed and capability.
i wonder what they will be able to do with that.
would it surpass gt3 and MGS2?
if so, holy crap.
Remember GT3 and MGS2 are 2nd generation titles :)
Yes I would expect a pretty big leap..
Cuz NO ONE can max out a console one their first try :)
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That\'s a press release. It supposed to promise everything. The real world is a different matter entirely.
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Originally posted by Watchdog
Bah, net polls mean nothing at all. It\'s a game with nothign new, but like I said in my last post, that isn\'t going to affect anything anymore.
What more do you want? Why can\'t you accept that the hardcore fans loved TTT? I am a hardcore Tekken player. I\'ve played Tekken since Tekken 1. I loved TTT. That says it all. (BTW, the score is now 11 to 0)
Releasing dev tools does make it easier to develop for a system, but it also limits the amount of power that you can tap from it. Saturn had an assortment of tools that skilled devs didn\'t use. DC had the MS os that produced mostly crappy games. Dev tools are an imperfect solution to a complex problem.
Developers can choose to use the tools and make a great looking game easily. Or they can choose not to use the tools and make a brilliant looking game not so easily. It is all up to the developers. I don\'t see a problem here.
"In two years from now, the Xbox, NGC, and PS2 will probably be on equal grounds in terms of programming simplicity. The programming difficulty won\'t be a factor then."
But this isn\'t the case. Right now dev teams are struggling to figure out ways to get their through put to respectable levels. But even when the devs figure it out, a new game is a new game, they are like organic entities in a way--unique challenges with unique solutions. Therefore, while the prior knowledge will definately help it will not solve their problems. Also, because of the untraditional archetecture of the PS2 devs have to rethink every project that they do. With conventional systems, coding for multiple consoles is relatively simple but the PS2 will take a very time intensive process of rethinking. Even when all this is done, it still will take longer for teams to publish their games because of the obsticles of the PS2 hardware.
How stupid do you think developers are? Don\'t you think their way of thinking will be able to change in two whole years from now?
And let\'s not even speak of the RAM issues...
If you knew more about the PS2\'s architecture, you would realize that the PS2 doesn\'t have a RAM problem if used correctly. I found this quote from here (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20010214/mallinson_01.htm).
"This unit is responsible for rasterizing an input stream of primitives. The GS has a dedicated 4M of embedded (on-chip) DRAM for storing frame buffers, Z buffer and textures. This embedded DRAM makes the GS incredibly quick at both polygon setup and fill rate operations. The GS supports points (dots), triangles, strips, fans, lines and poly-line and decals (sprites). Fast DMA also allows for textures to be reloaded several times within a frame."
That last line says it all.
Also, the xbox has a harddrive (for better or worse)
A harddrive is not needed to make a great console game.
and a modem and four joystick ports.
Hmmm. Kind of reminds me of the Dreamcast for some odd reason. Please remind me, how many 4 player games did the Dreamcast have?
These are costly addons that we have to purchase right now. Only a fraction the game community buy addons (I forget the figure but it is miniscule) let alone extra joysticks! Therfore are these addons aren\'t always going to be considered by devs when developing a game.
Yet Timesplitters, TTT, DOA2, Madden, and TM:B (as well as quite a few other sports games) still support 4 players. If developers want their game to be four players, they will make it four players even if everyone who buys their game doesn\'t have 4 controllers, a multitap, and 3 people to play against/with.
Right now devs are onboard because really the PS2 is the only viable system, but like I said if either of the other systems succeed (and it is reasonable to suggest that at least one will) the PS2 will face a tough challenge. Stick it out with the PS2 or go with a platform that offers a familiar architecture so you can spend less time fighting with the metal and more time realizing your vision.
By the looks of things, Sony has nothing to worry about. Check out the latest NGC launch day sales. Click Here. (http://194.47.16.181/forums/showthread.php?threadid=14132) You may think that when the NGC gets a Mario game or a Zelda game, its sales will sky rocket. I agree those games will help, but I really doubt it will be enough for developers to abandon the PS2. Sony sold 15 million consoles in about a year and a half when it was competing against nobody. It will be a lot harder for the NGC or Xbox to catch up when each of them is competing with two other systems. It is going to be a lot harder for other systems to catch up than you may be thinking.
You make a valid point that EA, and other companies (SEGA, Acclaim, etc) will make games for all systems, but the problem is that small innovativestudios cannot always afford to publish to all platforms. Who are they going to chose (disregarding buyouts)?
Chances are the Xbox will get most newcomers. This will help the Xbox, but it won\'t hurt the PS2 enough to make a dent in its sales.
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Will the PS2 become another Saturn-(I don\'t think so Sucka!). Will X Box sell well?-(Very uncertain). I do compare my Dreamcast games to PS2, and to be honest without being a fan boy. I have to say I am quite dissappointed in the Graphics department. For example Lemans for PS2 Vs Test Drive Lemans for Dreamcast. The Dreamcast version looks better. The Port of Crazy Taxi for PS2 was quite poor compared to the Dreamcast. Hell I expected Resident Evil:Code Veronica to blow away the Dreamcast version, and it looks worse-it has extra CG\'s but big deal. On the other hand DOA2 looks slightly better than the DC. But that\'s what I\'m trying to say. Remember way back when Lucas was saying the Graphics for PS2 will look like the effects seen in Phantom Menace. I have yet to see this, but Sony has experience in this field and will be #1. X Box has no experience, it will be harder to sell, but then again way back Sony had no experience and look how many millions of PS1\'s were sold. Expect to fork out alot of cash for X Box! If you like FPS and strategy, and fighting games, this system may well rock big time. It\'s hard to say at this point.
I think it\'s time for Sony to get off the filthy rich fat asses and find ways to tap into PS2\'s mighty power! The other consoles are coming into the war, so lets give them a fight!!:evil:
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As A little bit of an insite into this "PS2 is hard to program for" argument, I\'ve got a little fact for you.
Did you know that there are only 12 people working on BG: DA?
thats right 12. 9 artists and 3 encoders.
*sarcasm on*Gee It Must Be So HARD to Program For *sarcasm off*
:)
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Originally posted by Zolar
I have to say I am quite dissappointed in the Graphics department. For example Lemans for PS2 Vs Test Drive Lemans for Dreamcast. The Dreamcast version looks better. The Port of Crazy Taxi for PS2 was quite poor compared to the Dreamcast. Hell I expected Resident Evil:Code Veronica to blow away the Dreamcast version, and it looks worse-it has extra CG\'s but big deal. On the other hand DOA2 looks slightly better than the DC. But that\'s what I\'m trying to say.
All direct ports from other systems to the PS2 look like trash. The architecture is way too different to be able to do a direct port. The PS2 is taking future technology in a new direction, so I think it\'s a price worth paying. We don\'t want ports anyways. ;)
Mr T., thanks for that info. LOL. That is really funny. One of the best looking games on the PS2 was made with a tiny 12 person developement team.
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Hey, if the PS2 is so easy to develop for, then why the **** do Xbox and NGC games kick living **** out of PS2 in the graphics department? Answer-because they\'re simply more powerful. PS2 is a flawed piece of technology, whether you can bring yourself to admit it or not. It will never surpass the graphics of Xbox and NGC. Never. Just play your games and stop worrying about graphics already.
Originally posted by fastson
Good \'ol fanboys..
faston, you\'ll never be in a position where you can call someone a fanboy and get away with it. Please, go back to worshiping your PS2 now and stop with this non-sense.
Why can\'t you accept that the hardcore fans loved TTT?
Hardcore Tekken fans will buy anything with Tekken on it and pretend they love it. Duh. Your not proving or accomplishing anything by saying HC Tekken fans enjoyed TTT. .
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Finally some support, even though he hates PS2 I\'ll take it.
Yeah, dev team of 12 to do a slow paced RPG--tell me when the graphical abilities are pushed--you idiot. This isn\'t a FPS or a flight sim or anything that requires heavy processing. That\'s why they have 12 artists, because the coding doesn\'t have to account for a massive amout of floating operations. Next time you try to appear to be smart don\'t argue about something you know nothing about. BG is a slow (albeit great game) that is less on processing power and more on visuals.
Another thing, web polls mean nothing because of exactly what jumpman says. Those aren\'t hardcore players those are fanboys.
Yes devs can use the tools and get access to even LESS power--that seems like a good idea. Or they can code as they are and endure long dev cycles and frustrating coding. No coders aren\'t stupid, but the engineers that designed the PS2 are. Experience will help, certainly, but not to the point where developing for the PS2 will be anywhere near as easy as developing for the xbox. If you knew anything about the process you would be able to see this. It just takes more of everything to get the same effects. More of everything takes longer. Also yes the PS2 can "mimic" surround sound, it si not true surround, but it is a reasonable facsimily--the difference is that it\'s going to take cycles off the cpu to accomplish that while the xbox and gc (surround capable systems) can do it directly off of their sound cards.
And whoever said that crap about streaming off the CD--yes you\'ve just fell for the newest piece of crap marketing by Sony. DOn\'t feel badly, I fell for the "emotion engine". It\'s marketing to try and cover their limitations. If a ridiculous 4mb of ram were enough why do workstations need 1000s of megs? WHy not use this incredibly cheap and efficient way of streaming? WOuld save lots of money right? Sure, but you wouldn\'t get **** out of it. Because it doesn\'t work. It\'s marketing jargon that gets people to believe that their system is the best around.
Again, I\'m not nearly as set against the PS2 as I may seem, but this kind of ignorance is annoying. No one here is willing to play the devil\'s advocate so I\'m doing so.
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When the graphics get good enough by the other systems where ports towards PS2 result in major decrease in some areas of gameplay or graphics, come talk to me, PS2 graphics are fine
*hides DOA2. Quake III, and Unreal Tournament*
but I wish more developers would use GC and X-Box to there fullest and not use as much or more money making PS2 games that could result in being less than imagined.
Eric Jacob
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Im sorry but this is getting stupid.... no wait a sec, its already stupid.
The PS2 is a good gaming platform. It is harder to program for then most of the other consoles. It will get eiser to program for over time.
Yeah, dev team of 12 to do a slow paced RPG--tell me when the graphical abilities are pushed--you idiot. This isn\'t a FPS or a flight sim or anything that requires heavy processing. That\'s why they have 12 artists, because the coding doesn\'t have to account for a massive amout of floating operations. Next time you try to appear to be smart don\'t argue about something you know nothing about. BG is a slow (albeit great game) that is less on processing power and more on visuals.
Your calling me an idiot? Re-read your statement. "tell me when the graphical abilities are pushed"
"that is less on processing power and more on visuals" ?
Have you actually looked at the spell and water effects that are used in BG : DA? they look pretty intensive to me.
And before you try and say I know nothing about coding, I do actually have experience in C\\C++ , Java, Basic, Assembly, and a few other languages,
And it doesn\'t matter how fast or slow paced a game is, you still have to encode it.
watchdog = Idiot.
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faston, you\'ll never be in a position where you can call someone a fanboy and get away with it. Please, go back to worshiping your PS2 now and stop with this non-sense.
I don’t know if you can read.. kid.. But its spelled F A S T S O N!
Yeah.. I have my PS2 on a pedestal, with candles, flowers and all that stuff around it..
:rolleyes:
Watchdog: Why are you being so pessimistic? Its not good for you, you know.. I\'ve noticed one more thing.. You only come here to criticise PS2.. You never post in other threads..
That leads me to think you\'re really here to "bash" PS2.. Which makes me believe you don’t really own a PS2..
Hmm..
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Originally posted by Jumpman
Hey, if the PS2 is so easy to develop for, then why the **** do Xbox and NGC games kick living **** out of PS2 in the graphics department? Answer-because they\'re simply more powerful. PS2 is a flawed piece of technology, whether you can bring yourself to admit it or not. It will never surpass the graphics of Xbox and NGC. Never. Just play your games and stop worrying about graphics already.
Well look who finally showed up -- Mr. Asterisk Man. :) j/k Jumpman.
The NGC and Xbox should be more powerful. They are being released about 1 1/2 years after the PS2 was released. Jumpman, you need to read that link that Ryu posted to see why the sentence, "It will never surpass the graphics of Xbox and NGC" is completely an oppinion thing. The only reason I am defending the PS2 because it has a lot more power than you guys give credit for.
Hardcore Tekken fans will buy anything with Tekken on it and pretend they love it. Duh.
I don\'t see how you guys can still deny it. If I, a hardcore Tekken player, still play TTT to this day, is it because I can\'t accept that the game really sucks? Your logic is flawed. I think a hardcore Tekken player would know if hardcore Tekken players like TTT more than someone who is not so hardcore (I don\'t know if you\'ve even played TTT, so I can\'t say more than "not so hardcore").
(BTW, the score is now 14 to 0. Man, all these Tekken fanboys are really good at pretending.)
Originally posted by Watchdog
Yeah, dev team of 12 to do a slow paced RPG--tell me when the graphical abilities are pushed--you idiot.
And the name calling begins. :rolleyes:
This isn\'t a FPS or a flight sim or anything that requires heavy processing. That\'s why they have 12 artists, because the coding doesn\'t have to account for a massive amout of floating operations. Next time you try to appear to be smart don\'t argue about something you know nothing about. BG is a slow (albeit great game) that is less on processing power and more on visuals.
Edit: It looks like Mr T. beat me to this question, but I still want you to respond to it. I am interested in seeing how much you really know.
Ok mister smart guy, please explain to me why BG takes less processing power than a flight simulator. They both have graphics that are drawn in realtime. They both have a sophisticated physics engine. And while you\'re at it, please explain to me what you mean when you said "the coding doesn\'t have to account for a massive amout of floating operations." Thanks in advance.
A 12 man team made one of the most impressive looking games on hardest to program console ever. Maybe it isn\'t as hard as you thought for developers to change the way they think about making games.
Yes devs can use the tools and get access to even LESS power--that seems like a good idea.
Using the tools will make more of the PS2\'s power accessable to developers. That is what they are designed to do. Did you even read the links I posted about it?
No coders aren\'t stupid, but the engineers that designed the PS2 are.
Could you design a better console? If the PS2 designers are stupid, than what are you?
Experience will help, certainly, but not to the point where developing for the PS2 will be anywhere near as easy as developing for the xbox. If you knew anything about the process you would be able to see this. It just takes more of everything to get the same effects. More of everything takes longer. Also yes the PS2 can "mimic" surround sound, it si not true surround, but it is a reasonable facsimily--the difference is that it\'s going to take cycles off the cpu to accomplish that while the xbox and gc (surround capable systems) can do it directly off of their sound cards.
Thats great news for the Xbox, but it doesn\'t mean anything if the Xbox doesn\'t sell well. The Xbox will most likely flop in Japan. Lets just hope it does better in America and Europe...
I\'m sure you don\'t want to hear my oppinion, but I think the Xbox will be a failure. Even some of the most hardcore Xbox fanboys have said that they would wait until next spring before they bought one because thats when the online games start coming. If there is a lack of consumers at the beginning, the developers will start to run away to the more successful consoles, i.e., NGC and PS2.
And whoever said that crap about streaming off the CD--yes you\'ve just fell for the newest piece of crap marketing by Sony.
I don\'t know what you are referring to. If its about the quote I posted about how the PS2\'s architecture works and how it can stream in textures very fast, than you obviously didn\'t even click on the link I posted. Just so you know, that quote was not from Sony. It is from gamasutra.com -- a huge, well respected, game programming/technology site.
DOn\'t feel badly, I fell for the "emotion engine". It\'s marketing to try and cover their limitations. If a ridiculous 4mb of ram were enough why do workstations need 1000s of megs? WHy not use this incredibly cheap and efficient way of streaming? WOuld save lots of money right? Sure, but you wouldn\'t get **** out of it. Because it doesn\'t work. It\'s marketing jargon that gets people to believe that their system is the best around.
Thanks for your oppinion, but I prefer to take the oppinions from people who actually know what they are talking about. (i.e. Gamasutra)
EDIT: I just found this info on the Gaming Age forums. It\'s a excerpt from the interview that IGN Insider just had with Jason Rubin (the maker of Jak and Daxter). It pretty much backs up what I\'ve been saying this whole time. Sure, he loves Sony to death, but don\'t let that blind you to the truth. He obviously knows what he\'s talking about -- just look at his game. :)
IGN: What would you say are some of the biggest technical problems on the PS2 that you\'re overcoming in Jak and Daxter?
Jason Rubin: I think it\'s the same problem everybody else has with all systems. I mean we\'re overcoming memory issues, whether or not you\'re 40MB, which is effectively what the PS2 has, and after you add up all the little pieces you\'re at 64MB. We\'re not talking about a five-time memory advantage that the Xbox has. We\'re talking about, you know, a few more megs. We\'re always going to have memory issues, so we\'re overcoming those. We\'re overcoming the data management issue of how do you get 50 million polygons to 100 million polygons worth of
background geometry, modeled, and actually textured and lit and actually in the game. That\'s a much bigger task than dealing with a small amount of texture RAM. That problem is gone in like, you know, a week or two weeks of work. So, I\'d easily have the hardware be five times harder if we can make the actual game itself half as easy; you know, half as hard to make. It just doesn\'t work that way unfortunately, the game itself is far harder than the hardware. So we\'ve overcome the standard slew of issues, but I don\'t think those are any different issues than you\'re going to have on any other hardware.
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Originally posted by Mr T.
As A little bit of an insite into this "PS2 is hard to program for" argument, I\'ve got a little fact for you.
Did you know that there are only 12 people working on BG: DA?
thats right 12. 9 artists and 3 encoders.
*sarcasm on*Gee It Must Be So HARD to Program For *sarcasm off*
:)
Q : So, would you say that the PS2 almost demands large resources from developers in order to create truly ground-breaking titles? In other words, are the days of tiny start-up development teams gone?
Criterion : Not necessarily. We have achieved some truly stunning results with small teams of six or seven guys working out some ideas. I think a tiny start-up with a great game, and access to a PS2 development kit could just about make it. But they would have to be pretty talented.
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Goodness Gracious !:eek: This thread has grown HUGE, while I was away for only 2 days ! I read all you ppls posts, so I\'m gonna say this ; I\'m just going to enjoy my PS2. I am really hyped for SH2, Ace Combat 4, Onimusha 2, MGS2 and lotsa other PS2 games. I think those games will smack me in the face and say \'See, PS2 CAN deliver the goods !\'.
But to conclude all this, some tips for any Sony ppl who are listening :
- graphics are getting better, but do something please to clean em up; poly count etc is good, but do something about them jaggies and blurriness.
- please make the PS2 more cheap. The system is still too expensive in big parts of the world.
That would help, thank You.
Knotter8;)
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Originally posted by Knotter8
Goodness Gracious !:eek: This thread has grown HUGE, while I was away for only 2 days ! I read all you ppls posts, so I\'m gonna say this ; I\'m just going to enjoy my PS2. I am really hyped for SH2, Ace Combat 4, Onimusha 2, MGS2 and lotsa other PS2 games. I think those games will smack me in the face and say \'See, PS2 CAN deliver the goods !\'.
But to conclude all this, some tips for any Sony ppl who are listening :
- graphics are getting better, but do something please to clean em up; poly count etc is good, but do something about them jaggies and blurriness.
- please make the PS2 more cheap. The system is still too expensive in big parts of the world.
That would help, thank You.
Knotter8;)
*sniff* You made your papa very happy.. Now I can get some sleep :D
Wise choice Knotter me lad!
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Originally posted by Jumpman
Hey, if the PS2 is so easy to develop for, then why the **** do Xbox and NGC games kick living **** out of PS2 in the graphics department? Answer-because they\'re simply more powerful. PS2 is a flawed piece of technology, whether you can bring yourself to admit it or not. It will never surpass the graphics of Xbox and NGC. Never. Just play your games and stop worrying about graphics already.
faston, you\'ll never be in a position where you can call someone a fanboy and get away with it. Please, go back to worshiping your PS2 now and stop with this non-sense.
Hardcore Tekken fans will buy anything with Tekken on it and pretend they love it. Duh. Your not proving or accomplishing anything by saying HC Tekken fans enjoyed TTT. .
Just a simple question jumpman? What games on xbox and gamecube blow away gt3, FFX, TTT, MGS2, DMC, J & D, Silent Hill2, , and RR5 graphically? Just a simple question. As for tekken it considered on of the greatest series ever to me. Oh I forgot nintendo fans last gen just had SSB to play thats right. Other crappy fighting games like mk4, wargods, dark rift, deadly arts. So they wouldn\'t know a real fighting game if it was in there hands.:alien: :alien: :alien: :alien:
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I only called him an idiot because he essencially did the same thing with his little sarcasm act.
BG takes less processing power because of the nature of the game. It\'s not a true 3d game, it\'s like Diablo (an isometric view with a locked camera). The characters and enemies are small (almost top down actually), the action isn\'t nearly as fast paced as a FPS so there is less demand on the cpu. It\'s been a while since I\'ve done this so it may not be perfect (if after this you are still not satisfied I\'ll pull out my notes). In a 3d world there are so many more variables and calculations that must be done in order to get everything looking correct in your world. Biquadratic Mapping is a calculation used to shape and size textures on the x and y axis (for our purposes this is sufficient). This allows objects to properly scale (ie far away enemies appear smaller); however another calculation must be done to properly calculate the depth (Progressive mapping). In a 2d world programmers use at technique called RDC to keep track on objects on an essencially flat surface. This isn\'t sufficient for 3d because of the extra coordinate needed (z). This is a very old technique that I\'m sure is not even used anymore, but any post-secondary 3d math class you take will start you with these fundamentals. In BG entities aren\'t resized, scaled or drawn from an almost infinate number of angles because the camera is fixed in an isometric view. There is no user controlled floating camera that gives complete freedom to the user. The Devs had to take into account one viewpoint and go from there. Just look at the difference with Diablo 2 and any FPS. Why do you need so much more power to run a FPS? Well, I\'ve explained only a fraction of the reasons. Water effects look good, but you can only view them from one angle, one perspective. Don\'t get me wrong this game is going to rock, but this is not a game that is incredible taxing on a cpu (relative to a FPS).
Okay, floating point operations are the way a cpu (in conjunction with ram) handles complex and very high or very low (even non-integers) numbers (during calculations); geometric lighting on complex archeticeture is one example. Floaing Point refers the the decimal point that obviously moves depending on the calculation. These numbers (usually there are billions in a 3D world) can result in a terrible hit to the CPU--which is why the PS2 has a dedicated processor to handle FPOs. This is most used for 3d calculations--which is why only a few years ago computers were crying out in pain during the time that new (at the time) 3d games emerged. Previously, FPOs weren\'t needed as much as they are now. MMX was the first instruction set to address this issue (but really it didn\'t work that well). Enter 3d accelleration. Because FPOs are incredibly important to today\'s games (read 3D) the PS2 has a processor dedicated only to FPO.
Like I said I could go into much more detail, but there really isn\'t any need.
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"Using the tools will make more of the PS2\'s power accessable to developers. That is what they are designed to do. Did you even read the links I posted about it?"
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Yes I read it, but again that is not the case. This same site was extolling the virtues of the PS2 archetecture before it was released. They get information, and they print it. You will NEVER get full power out of any hardware if you use development tools. These tools are designed to help people get around the rough edges of the PS2. "Working from the metal" is the only way to take advantage of the true power of the PS2. That\'s why onlyu SEGA could get the most out of the Saturn, because they knew the machine and knew how to develop for it. 3rd parties either used dev tools or tried to work from the metal with varying degrees of success (but never reaching the success of SEGA themselves.)
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"Could you design a better console? If the PS2 designers are stupid, than what are you? "
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No I couldn\'t design a better console moron. I\'m not an engineer. But the good people at MS and Nintendo can and have. What an absolutely ridiculous thing to say.
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Thats great news for the Xbox, but it doesn\'t mean anything if the Xbox doesn\'t sell well. The Xbox will most likely flop in Japan. Lets just hope it does better in America and Europe...
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Can\'t argue there. The xbox needs to sell. It may flop in Japan, but who knows. I think it was a wise move to delay the launch. There are still rumblings that Square is talking to MS. IF that happens and MG gets a release anything can happen in the land of the rising sun.
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I\'m sure you don\'t want to hear my oppinion, but I think the Xbox will be a failure. Even some of the most hardcore Xbox fanboys have said that they would wait until next spring before they bought one because thats when the online games start coming. If there is a lack of consumers at the beginning, the developers will start to run away to the more successful consoles, i.e., NGC and PS2.
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Your opinion is valid. Hardcore fanboys have already preordered every xbox available for launch. A hardcore fanboy wouldn\'t wait for a year to buy a system. These initial preorders are a good sign. Right now there is no reason to think that the xbox can\'t succeed. They have atleast three good launch games (DOA, Munch and Halo--IGN). Anything can happen.
Yes, and where does Gamasutra.com -- a huge, well respected, game programming/technology site, get its press releases from? This is just a press release and we heard about it before the PS2 launched and are still hearing about it, but never seeing the results. They report the news they get, just like IGN or NextGen or CNN. They get news they report it. It doesn\'t mean anything. They reported on the "seemingly limitless power" of the PS2 before it launched. Where is this power now? They just report the news.
Yes that is from Naughty Dog--a PS2 exclusive developer (Im pretty sure). What did you expect? Even if they aren\'t exclusive, I can find any number of quotes from many other companies and individuals that hate the xbox archetecture. What is this going to proove?
And no I do not only bash the PS2. I could easily say you only praise it. I offer my opinion on what I have played and seen.
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The majority of us here is fairly positive about PS2\'s future. So the thread name went from; PS2: for worse times - to - PS2: for worse times ? - to - PS2: for worse times, answer=NO (with some issues here and there though.)
Also... Watchdog, Baldurs Gate is not the only PS2 game...:rolleyes:
Why does Capcom do prerendered backgrounds for the RE remake on NGC (fantastic though, kudos to NGC hardware) and realtime 3D in DMC on PS2 ?
Check out all the kinetic action in that game ; so much 3D calculations !
No, like I said, the amount of raw power of PS2 is not the problem, but it\'s imo more a case of unclean visuals. NGC and XBOX have untill now an edge over PS2 when it comes to anti alias and such. But once devs improve PS2 hardware efficiency I think we\'ll see \'clean\' graphics on PS2 as well.
Knotter8 :D
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Originally posted by Jumpman
Hey, if the PS2 is so easy to develop for, then why the **** do Xbox and NGC games kick living **** out of PS2 in the graphics department? Answer-because they\'re simply more powerful. PS2 is a flawed piece of technology, whether you can bring yourself to admit it or not. It will never surpass the graphics of Xbox and NGC. Never. Just play your games and stop worrying about graphics already.
PS2 isnt getting blown out graphics wise at all, and last time I checked the GC and xbox were coming out a year later so they should have somewhat better graphics
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(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnewgrounds.com%2Fbbs%2Fuser_images%2Fpics%2F1%2F140000%2Fngbbs3b8813551f772.gif&hash=7b7883dcd4ad6e80166a398cdae353db2f7a4024)
Just my opinion.
We will see in 2-3 years what happens, maybe the x-box will sell 30 million, maybe the GC will sell 25 million and the PS2 just 20 million. Just time will tell..........
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Watchdog, I think you have been misinformed about Baldur\'s Gate: DA. The game is in true 3d. Quote from PS2.ign: "This game is running on a rock-solid 3D engine with completely rotatable dungeons, brilliant animation for nearly every interactive element (of which there are many), and first-rate lighting effects of all different kinds."
The game has to deal with everything that a FPS game has to deal with. It has to deal with hiding off-screen or blocked-from-view polygons. It has to deal with lighting effects. (good ol\' dot product ;)). It has to render the world and the characters all in real time, because they are always changing. The backgrounds aren\'t prerendered or anything. This pic is probably from when you beat a level or something and the camera comes down for a closer view of the hero. I\'m posting it because it proves a point. (https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fps2media.ign.com%2Fmedia%2Fpreviews%2Fimage%2Fbaldursgate%2FBGDA_area13.jpg&hash=575900eac99eacd963c3e8a80d937c079745e8b2)
This just shows how similar the game is to the FPS games. It has to process just as much as a FPS game does.
About the characters being small and also about the perspective thing (objects are smaller in the background):
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.computerandvideogames.com%2Fnews%2F04_01%2F2467%2F22.jpg&hash=43c5b700ec5df3b8929d9d9a6cd4b9f1910f0b56)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.computerandvideogames.com%2Fnews%2F04_01%2F2467%2F19.jpg&hash=90ef116b064353bf4f62092342ed4815500ab871)
Next Generation magazine said that some of the monsters will be made up of 20,000 polygons a piece.:eek:
You will NEVER get full power out of any hardware if you use development tools. These tools are designed to help people get around the rough edges of the PS2.
I\'m not saying they will get full power. I\'m saying they will get more power than most developers have now. The most talented developers who don\'t need the kits will make better games, but the less talented developers will still make impressive looking games with these tools -- more impressive than what they are making now at least.
Can\'t argue there. The xbox needs to sell. It may flop in Japan, but who knows. I think it was a wise move to delay the launch. There are still rumblings that Square is talking to MS. IF that happens and MG gets a release anything can happen in the land of the rising sun.
Yeah, anything can happen really. What would be funny is if the Xbox sells better than the NGC did. :)
Yes that is from Naughty Dog--a PS2 exclusive developer (Im pretty sure). What did you expect? Even if they aren\'t exclusive, I can find any number of quotes from many other companies and individuals that hate the xbox archetecture. What is this going to proove?
Yeah, Naughty Dog is a first party developer (I think they became first party about a year ago). I said to look past them being first party and just look at what they have made. Don\'t you think they are a credible source?
And no I do not only bash the PS2. I could easily say you only praise it. I offer my opinion on what I have played and seen.
I offer my opinion on what I have played and seen too. That\'s whats so great about opinions, they are all different. :)
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Hey Ironfist your not kidding. Baldurs Gate looks awesome. I can\'t wait to play it. :)
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A 3D engine is different from a 3D game. Yes they are made up of polys (but I\'m sure they are using many sprites too) but the camera is out of the user\'s control. Any of the new consoles can make an awesome realtime video so long as the camera is predetermined. As soon as you let the camera be controlled it requires much more processing power.
The lighting is particle based--the PS2 is king of particle based animation so they should look good.
I think BG looks great and I will get it, but you just can\'t compare the performance of this game to that of a FPS.
Also, Sony, MS and Nintendo all knew what they all were doing when they ere designing their consoles. Sony knew and even stated well before PS2 launched that the xbox and GC (wasn\'t called that at the time) that the PS2 would be the most powerful consoles on the market. They maintained their system would outperform anything on the market for 5-10 years (lol). This obviously hasn\'t happened and isn\'t the case.
Naughty Dog is 1st party, hm, didn\'t know that. If they were second party I would carefully consider anything they said, but being 1st party really hurts their credibility. It\'s like asking the makers of Munch (can\'t remember) what they think of the PS2 vs the xbox. I guarentee they wouldn\'t say nothing nice about the PS2 and nothing bad about xbox. Would it be true? Of course not. Would it get printed in an article at IGN? Absolutely.
I would say that DOA3 and Halo look significantly better than any PS2 game. I say this and so does IGN (whatever that means). It\'s hard to argue. I guess we have to hope that the gameplay isn\'t as good as the graphics or they could start quite a stir, being launch titles and all.
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I will admit DOA3 looks to be maybe the best looking next gen fighter graphically so far. Halo looks good as well, so far the xbox has been very impressive so far.:thepimp:
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Originally posted by Watchdog
I would say that DOA3 and Halo look significantly better than any PS2 game. I say this and so does IGN (whatever that means). It\'s hard to argue. I guess we have to hope that the gameplay isn\'t as good as the graphics or they could start quite a stir, being launch titles and all.
Actually i like the look VF4 better. It\'s grittier and morerealistic. Especially that snow level... :surprised
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i downloaded a movie of halo, and it did look very very stunning. it was bout 6 minutes long, and the game\'s graphics were nto lacking to say the least. you could barely tell that it was running at 30fps.
i always knew that x box\'s graphics will surpass ps2\'s but that does not bother me. i like the games that are coming out for ps2. some of them are amazing.
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Originally posted by PahnCrD
Actually i like the look VF4 better. It\'s grittier and morerealistic. Especially that snow level... :surprised
DOA3 also has a snow level with the same, if not better, snow effects. DOA3 is amazing. I can\'t deny that. That is one reason (the other being Munch) that I want an Xbox.
Watchdog, I\'ll reply to most of the stuff you said later.
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Originally posted by Watchdog
A 3D engine is different from a 3D game. Yes they are made up of polys (but I\'m sure they are using many sprites too) but the camera is out of the user\'s control. Any of the new consoles can make an awesome realtime video so long as the camera is predetermined. As soon as you let the camera be controlled it requires much more processing power.
I\'ll first answer the easy part. No, BG: DA does not use sprites. The closest thing to a sprite that I have seen is the lifebars, which is probably just a bitmap. All characters, objects, environments, etc., are polygonal.
Now for the hard part. Right now I am awaiting an answer from one of the mods at Black Isle Studio. I still don\'t see why having a controllable camera would take more processing power, but I am asking one of the mods if the cameras are controllable. (The mods answer everybody\'s questions about Baldur\'s Gate. I think they work on the BG team, but I\'m not sure about that.) I wish Mr. T. would come back and back me up on this because I think he knows more about it than I do, but I still think a FPS and BG: DA take the same processing power even if the camera is not controllable.
Also, Sony, MS and Nintendo all knew what they all were doing when they ere designing their consoles. Sony knew and even stated well before PS2 launched that the xbox and GC (wasn\'t called that at the time) that the PS2 would be the most powerful consoles on the market. They maintained their system would outperform anything on the market for 5-10 years (lol). This obviously hasn\'t happened and isn\'t the case.
Without a link or some kind of proof that Sony said that, it means nothing. I don\'t even think the Xbox existed back then. The only thing that Sony knew about was the Dolphin.
Naughty Dog is 1st party, hm, didn\'t know that. If they were second party I would carefully consider anything they said, but being 1st party really hurts their credibility. It\'s like asking the makers of Munch (can\'t remember) what they think of the PS2 vs the xbox. I guarentee they wouldn\'t say nothing nice about the PS2 and nothing bad about xbox. Would it be true? Of course not. Would it get printed in an article at IGN? Absolutely.
Ok, even though Jak and Daxter is arguably the best looking game on the PS2, I\'ll drop that statement. The JAD team probably knows the most about the PS2, but they could have been lying. (I really hate to drop a quote like that :()
I would say that DOA3 and Halo look significantly better than any PS2 game. I say this and so does IGN (whatever that means). It\'s hard to argue. I guess we have to hope that the gameplay isn\'t as good as the graphics or they could start quite a stir, being launch titles and all.
Like I said before, I\'m not about to diss the quality of Xbox launch games. I probably won\'t buy an Xbox this year because of all the great games coming to the PS2, but I definately want to play those games. I am predicting that the Xbox will turn out a lot like the PS2. It has an (arguably) great launch, then the quality software slows down for a while before it picks up again. I mean, what is after DOA3, Halo, and Munch? I\'m not seeing much except for that really cool game coming late next year (the title slips my mind right now).
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More processing power because you can control the camera? Gimme a break.
Regardless of whether the camera is moving or not, if everything on the screen is made up of polygons, they still have to be generated on the fly. They aren\'t just tossed there and forgotten.
/ dm /
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Originally posted by datamage
More processing power because you can control the camera? Gimme a break.
Regardless of whether the camera is moving or not, if everything on the screen is made up of polygons, they still have to be generated on the fly. They aren\'t just tossed there and forgotten.
/ dm /
Exactly. I guess the best way to solve this is for Watchdog to post a list what a FPS game processes that BG: DA doesn\'t.
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Originally posted by Caspian
BG2:DA, MGS2, FFX
You forgot ICO...;) This thread is really lame. But that\'s just my opinion.
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You guys are ridiculous. Isometric games do not have the system requirements that FPS do. That should be your first clue.
Secondly, a FPS is a quicker game, things move more quickly and therefore have to be drawn more quickly.
And again obviously have a controllable camera impacts performance. It\'s one more thing for the CPU to keep track of--if you believe nothing else. Also, just the fact that everything is so small on screen makes a difference.
These are only the things that are readily aparent.
It\'s impossible arguing with ignorant people because they\'ll wear you down and bring you to their level.
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It\'s impossible arguing with ignorant people because they\'ll wear you down and bring you to their level.
Right, and remind us why you are here again? To start your anti-ps2 campaign?
Tell me why Black & White runs worse on my system than any new and current FPS games? Yes, you can move the camera, but it\'s still the same when in a static view.
Why Blair Witch Project, which used pre-rendered backgrounds, ran choppy on my older system (which surpassed the recommended specs) ... Same goes for Nocturne, and I can be here all night naming PC games. (that aren\'t FPSs and use static cameras)
In my experience, FPSs run better than any other type of game. (on the PC) - Sooo.
/ dm /
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If you look at some of the movies of BG : DA then you will relise that the camera is being controlled. There is one particular sceen where it looks like the dwarven character is fighting skeletons and the camera zooms in and moves around abit to get a better look because hes been surrounded.
Yes a controlable camera will have a slight impact on the processor. But it does look like the camera in one build of BG : DA has a controlable camera.
But I\'m getting sick of this anyway, the games are looking better and better, the gameplay looks like its going to be cool.
Oh and by the way I finnally got to play DMC this morning and god damn it rocks.
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Black and White doesn\'t have a fixed camera, so you answered your own question. The entities are huge and the world is emmense.
I don\'t know the other games you are refering to, but performance could be from sloppy coding, unoptimized engine, bugs or any number of other software related problems.
Another little bit of proof (if you will): Why, when listing benchmarks for a system or graphics card do they list performance scores for FPSs (read Quake3)? Because it taxes a system the most and uses almost all of its resources is why.
You are a jackass. I\'m not here to spread anti-PS2 propaganda. Now, with you out of arguments, you start questioning my motives. Give it a rest. So many people here are arguing with me that have no knowledge of what I\'m arguing, but they are brought to arms just becasue of the fact that I\'m speaking against the PS2--gasp!! I own a PS2, but that fact alone does not mean that I have to live in blissful ignorance and love every aspect of the PS2. I have stated that I enjoyed SSX very much, ICO looks wonderful, BG I am excited about, J&D I have actually changed my mind about recently during a discussion on this forum. I\'m not a troll, I\'m just here to try to get people to admit that all is not perfect in the land of Sony. Once that happens things have to get better. If no one ever said anything against Sony or the PS2 then what motivation would they have to improve?
Like I\'ve said I\'m not nearly as set against the PS2 as it might seem reading this post (or BG for that matter--it looks like a great game), but there are problems surrounding the PS2 and I\'m not going to pretend that they don\'t exist.
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Originally posted by Watchdog
You guys are ridiculous. Isometric games do not have the system requirements that FPS do. That should be your first clue.
Just adding to what datamage said. Isometric games have never been done on the scale that it is being done right now. Everything is in 3d, unlike most other games of this nature that are done in complete 2d.
Secondly, a FPS is a quicker game, things move more quickly and therefore have to be drawn more quickly.
I really hate to tell you this, but nomatter what the speed of the game is, it is drawn at the framerate of the game. For example, 60 FPS games display 60 frames every second. *gasp* I know, it\'s an amazing concept. Nomatter how fast the game moves, or how fast the characters move in the game, it will only display the graphics every 1/60 of a second.
And again obviously have a controllable camera impacts performance. It\'s one more thing for the CPU to keep track of--if you believe nothing else.
I just got confirmation from Kevin Osburn at Black Isle Studios that you are able to rotate the camera but not zoom in or out. Link (http://feedback.blackisle.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000489#000014). The computer still has the ability to do the zooming though.
Keeping track of where the camera is takes practically zero processing power anyways -- whether or not the camera is controllable or not. That data is stored in a structure that can be accessed any time. Everything is rendered from that camera point (again, whether or not the camera is movable). So it looks like that argument is worthless now.
Also, just the fact that everything is so small on screen makes a difference.
What, did those pics of the Ice Giant I posted not show up for you or something?
These are only the things that are readily aparent.
Well keep searching, because what you posted means jack squat.
It\'s impossible arguing with ignorant people because they\'ll wear you down and bring you to their level.
All respect I had for you just flew right out the window. I thought you were an intellegent person, but you had to result to that. :confused:
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Another little bit of proof (if you will): Why, when listing benchmarks for a system or graphics card do they list performance scores for FPSs (read Quake3)? Because it taxes a system the most and uses almost all of its resources is why.
No, I won\'t actually. All you are doing is assuming that\'s the reason. I have a better, more logical reason for you though. Maybe it\'s because up until about a year ago when B&W came out, almost all 3d games on the PC were FPSs. Yes, the FPS genre was chosen to represent graphics cards\' power because they taxed the system the most compared to other genres. Look at its competition though. The only other games on PCs were 2D (2D doesn\'t tax the system), and a handful of non-FPS 3D games. FPS games are the obvious choice to represent a graphics card\'s power on the PC. Doesn\'t that make a little more sense?
Here is a quote from the Dark Alliance (http://www.interplay.com/bgdarkalliance/mainpage.htm) page:
Q: What are you doing with the Playstation 2 hardware? Are you doing things that can’t be done on other consoles or on the PC?
A: The envioronmental effects working in BG: Dark Alliance would bring your friend\'s fastest PC to a crawl. It could be years until the PC can do all of the things that you\'ll see in BG: Dark Alliance.
What? That doesn\'t make any sense. If FPS games can run on a PC then why can\'t BG: DA? [/sarcasm off]
Everything else you said was just arguing (instead of debating), and it wasn\'t directed at me (for the most part), so I\'ll just ignore it.
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Welp I guess the only thing left for me to do is :laughing:
1st its become obvious that Jumpman deserves the
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgroups.yahoo.com%2Fgroup%2FOAComSigPics%2Ffiles%2FGrumpy%2527s%2520Files%2Fgag%2520pics%2Ftool.jpg&hash=cc3fa157678742f4a74fcdfe16e7b570d2eb74a1)
award
and watchman or watchdog, what the hell are you talking about.
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This thread supports the idea which was mentioned in the links from older threads: WE\'RE INFORMATION WHORES!!
It\'s ok though. Because we just can\'t help it!
Damn the internet!! :D :cool:
Long live video games!!
By the way. IMO there\'s nothing wrong with information so long as you love videogames at heart!! Also it\'s important to remember a point that was brought up in the older threads and that is that most of us are a lot older now which changes things. Gone are the days of the innocent kid waiting to rip open his video game gifts on christmas! Heck. I think you\'d be pressed to find any of us back in our childhoods worrying about textures, bump-mapping, frame-rate etc... All we knew was that we were about to have some serious fun minus the nit-picking that we are all guilty of now. But times change! But my love for gaming will not which is why I don\'t mind the nit-picking so much.
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Yes I agree with Bossieman..
This thread, is infact gay :) :fro:
Watchdog: Why didnt you answer my question?
Its even more obvious now!
Ill quote myself!
Why are you being so pessimistic? Its not good for you, you know..
I\'ve noticed one more thing.. You only come here to criticise PS2.. You never post in other threads..(threads that has some good news about PS2)
EDIT: I took out somethings.. Dont want to sink to their level ;)
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There\'s no need for name calling. Watchdog is entitled to his oppinon as much as you are entitled to yours. Enough with the personal attacks. Lets get back to the debate. :)
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You are a jackass.
Go f\'ck yourself. Here you are criticizing us and how \'low\' we get, when you\'re the first one to throw an insult. Last post I take from you seriously. Have a nice day.
/ dm /
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Firstly, I only insult when I in turn get insulted. When has anyone taken any post that speaks against the PS2 seriously? And no you didn\'t insult me directly (dm), but you post is inflammatory and hostile so I responded in kind. Besides when someone insults me (unprovoked) you don\'t jump on him and defend these high ideals--hypocrite.
Secondly, you guys know nothing about what goes into a 3d engine and yet you still are arguing and calling me names. Does this make sense?
And of course they are going to say "This game isn\'t possible anywhere else--your PCs would cry". Give me a break. Do you expect them to say, while promoting their product "We;re not breaking any boundries here, this stuff is pretty textbook stuff and can be done on the GBA given the proper timeframe. Actually it\'s a lot like Diablo II with more spells--we stole a lot from Blizzard." Some common sense please.
Like it or not most of you are fanboys. You have not even considered any of my points. If you look at my initial posts in this thread they were not inflammatory, they were posts in the spirit of the topic. Whenever I post my ideas that are a little against the PS2 I get jumped on by multiple people.
Calling someone ignorant is not necessarily an insult, and definately not in the context that I used it. Calling most of you here ignorant only means that you have non knowledge about any given topic. In this case you do not know what it takes to get a 3d engine to work and the process therein, and therefore it is impossible to DEBATE this issue with you.
And, I answered you question already in a post (do you even read them?). I have responded in threads that praise the PS2, and have said positive things about the PS2 (recently in the ICO, this damn thread and J&D posts) so you can put your conspiracy theories to rest.
Secondly, it DOES matter how quickly things are moving. No I can\'t find a specific document that states this, but it would be worthless to post here anyway because you people don\'t beleive anything that doesn\'t praise the PS2.
Lastly, having a controllable comera has a huge impact (zooming and scaling etc) on performance, not just a little. You guys are using PS2 biased common sense to arrive at your conclusions. I actually know--read carefully I actually KNOW--for a fact, but this, not surprisingly, fell on deaf ears.
The PS2 is a wonderful system really. The textures are always bright and colourful. Framerate problems are very rarely noticeable, actually once you play a game enough you hardly notice them any because you can anticipate them and adjust on the fly. Actually, there will be no more framerate problems anymore because I read an interview on IGN that said new dev kits and dev tools have been shipped so we should be seeing great content (at a solid 60fps) during the next wave. I would say that 55% of the games released on the PS2 have been excellent, 25% awesome, genre shattering experiences and the rest have been mildly entertaining--perfect for a rental. I don\'t really mind that the PS2 only has 2 controller ports because I usually only have 1 friend over at a time anyway and the internet is the next big thing anyway, not home playing with a bunch of friends. I can\'t wait to buy the harddrive and modem to complete my system so that the online experience can begin. I wonder what it will cost? Does anyone know? Post a link to IGN so I can be sure the information is accurate (if the posted price is too high I\'m not going to believe it though). I gotta admit that BG is most visually and technically impressive bit of software that I\'ve ever seen. It looks AWESOME. Even though I hated the first three VFs (for arcade, SS and DC--not really good compared to Tekken), I have to say that I think VF4 looks amazing (much better than the first three). I will buy this for sure--I wonder why it took Sega 4 tries to finally get this game right? Anyone have a link that answers this question (preferably from IGN or some other reputable game reporting site)? Actually, I can\'t think of a game that is coming out that doesn\'t look awesome. I know I said this after the system launched, but this time it must be true because I have this irrational kind of blind faith--lol, I know that\'s redundant. The Crapbox and Gheycube don\'t really interest me at all. Besides I read somewhere that the crapbox is going to only be able to ship 300,000 units at launch--it\'s pathetic that a software company is trying to get into the hardware business anyway, I\'m not surprised. Some of the screenshots look OKAY, but they are probably mock ups or fakes. I bet the actually games will run in low res because I don\'t think any system is powerful enough to actually render those screens in realtime--perhaps the PS2 with the new dev tools. Maybe someone has a link that confirms this suspician (if there is a link contrary don\'t bother posting, I\'m not that interested heh). Anyway, I really think the PS2 is the best console ever (relatively speaking). Does anyone agree? We could discuss this instead of the previous ghey topic.
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Originally posted by Watchdog
And of course they are going to say "This game isn\'t possible anywhere else--your PCs would cry". Give me a break. Do you expect them to say, while promoting their product "We;re not breaking any boundries here, this stuff is pretty textbook stuff and can be done on the GBA given the proper timeframe. Actually it\'s a lot like Diablo II with more spells--we stole a lot from Blizzard." Some common sense please.
Here\'s some common sense for you. If the PS2 is so hard to program for (you said it yourself), then why the heck would they choose to program for the PS2 instead of programming on the familiar PC? Hmmm... Maybe it\'s because what they said was true -- and this is coming from a non first party programming company.
Like it or not most of you are fanboys. You have not even considered any of my points. If you look at my initial posts in this thread they were not inflammatory, they were posts in the spirit of the topic. Whenever I post my ideas that are a little against the PS2 I get jumped on by multiple people.
The only reason we jump on you is because you are wrong. You claim you know everything about the PS2 and its inferiority, yet you show no proof of that. Like I said before, I am not a fanboy. I can\'t wait to play the Xbox and NGC. I am only defending the PS2 because it has a lot more power than you are giving it credit for.
Calling someone ignorant is not necessarily an insult, and definately not in the context that I used it. Calling most of you here ignorant only means that you have non knowledge about any given topic. In this case you do not know what it takes to get a 3d engine to work and the process therein, and therefore it is impossible to DEBATE this issue with you.
So instead of explaining to us "what it takes to get a 3d engine to work," you just call us fanboys and expect us to leave you alone. You have not said anything to prove your credibility and your knowledge of 3D graphics.
Secondly, it DOES matter how quickly things are moving. No I can\'t find a specific document that states this, but it would be worthless to post here anyway because you people don\'t beleive anything that doesn\'t praise the PS2.
No it doesn\'t. Lets say we have a ball rolling across the screen. It could roll across 1 point per cycle, or it could roll across 100 points per cycle. Either way, if the framerate is 30 fps, it would only draw the ball every 1/30 of a second. The only extra amount of processing that is needed to move the ball 100 points instead of 1 point is adding 100 to the ball\'s current position instead of just adding 1 to the current position. Adding does not take a significant amount of processing power. \'nuff said.
Lastly, having a controllable comera has a huge impact (zooming and scaling etc) on performance, not just a little. You guys are using PS2 biased common sense to arrive at your conclusions. I actually know--read carefully I actually KNOW--for a fact, but this, not surprisingly, fell on deaf ears.
All characters, objects, and environments are scaled in BG: DA. I already gave you an example of this, yet you continue to ignore it. Go look at the Ice Giant. He is smaller when he\'s farther away from the camera, and bigger when up close. Even if the cameras were not controllable in BG: DA, everything still has to be scaled so they don\'t look wierd (i.e, too big or too small) on the screen.
The only thing that having a controllable camera does is adds a couple more checks per cycle. The game has to check and see if the Rotate_Camera_Left or Rotate_Camera_Right button is pressed. Then it moves the camera accordingly. Then it goes back to the normal draw screen function. Adding two more checks per cycle does not add significant processing to the game.
The PS2 is a wonderful system really. The textures are always bright and colourful. Framerate problems are very rarely noticeable, actually once you play a game enough you hardly notice them any because you can anticipate them and adjust on the fly. Actually, there will be no more framerate problems anymore because I read an interview on IGN that said new dev kits and dev tools have been shipped so we should be seeing great content (at a solid 60fps) during the next wave. I would say that 55% of the games released on the PS2 have been excellent, 25% awesome, genre shattering experiences and the rest have been mildly entertaining--perfect for a rental. I don\'t really mind that the PS2 only has 2 controller ports because I usually only have 1 friend over at a time anyway and the internet is the next big thing anyway, not home playing with a bunch of friends. I can\'t wait to buy the harddrive and modem to complete my system so that the online experience can begin. I wonder what it will cost? Does anyone know? Post a link to IGN so I can be sure the information is accurate (if the posted price is too high I\'m not going to believe it though). I gotta admit that BG is most visually and technically impressive bit of software that I\'ve ever seen. It looks AWESOME. Even though I hated the first three VFs (for arcade, SS and DC--not really good compared to Tekken), I have to say that I think VF4 looks amazing (much better than the first three). I will buy this for sure--I wonder why it took Sega 4 tries to finally get this game right? Anyone have a link that answers this question (preferably from IGN or some other reputable game reporting site)? Actually, I can\'t think of a game that is coming out that doesn\'t look awesome. I know I said this after the system launched, but this time it must be true because I have this irrational kind of blind faith--lol, I know that\'s redundant. The Crapbox and Gheycube don\'t really interest me at all. Besides I read somewhere that the crapbox is going to only be able to ship 300,000 units at launch--it\'s pathetic that a software company is trying to get into the hardware business anyway, I\'m not surprised. Some of the screenshots look OKAY, but they are probably mock ups or fakes. I bet the actually games will run in low res because I don\'t think any system is powerful enough to actually render those screens in realtime--perhaps the PS2 with the new dev tools. Maybe someone has a link that confirms this suspician (if there is a link contrary don\'t bother posting, I\'m not that interested heh). Anyway, I really think the PS2 is the best console ever (relatively speaking). Does anyone agree? We could discuss this instead of the previous ghey topic.
Your sarcasm is so amusing. :rolleyes: I have not said that the PS2 looks better than the Xbox. I have not said that the PS2 is the king of all systems right now. I have only said that the PS2 is going to improve a whole lot in its lifetime, and that it is going to be comparable to the Xbox before its life is over. This is pure speculation on my part, but from what I\'ve seen, and what I know about the PS2, I believe it to be true. And I will continue to defend the PS2 as long as there are people out there like you who don\'t know what they are talking about.
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They don\'t program for the PC because the user base is much higher on a console. A successful game on the PC sells 1 million games. A successful game like FF sells multimillion copies worldwide not just US (as the PC is mainly a US based platform--Japan could care less about it.)
I have explained about how a 3D engine worked and noticed no one made any comments on it. You chose to ignore what you can\'t argue with or can\'t understand.
_______________________
No it doesn\'t. Lets say we have a ball rolling across the screen. It could roll across 1 point per cycle, or it could roll across 100 points per cycle. Either way, if the framerate is 30 fps, it would only draw the ball every 1/30 of a second. The only extra amount of processing that is needed to move the ball 100 points instead of 1 point is adding 100 to the ball\'s current position instead of just adding 1 to the current position. Adding does not take a significant amount of processing power. \'nuff said.
_________________________
LOL, you know NOTHING about what you are talking about. That\'s all I\'m going to say.
Characters being scaled isn\'t the problem. The first shot you showed could have been a cutscene or something. Or it is a scripted event. Regardless, that scene is anticipated by the engine--notice there is only two characters on screen (I\'m pretty sure, but there weren\'t many). I\'m not saying that the PS2 couldn\'t scale, but it would take a lot of cpu power. Regardless, that scaling isn\'t controlled by the player and I\'ve tried to tell you that countless times.
__________
The only thing that having a controllable camera does is adds a couple more checks per cycle. The game has to check and see if the Rotate_Camera_Left or Rotate_Camera_Right button is pressed. Then it moves the camera accordingly. Then it goes back to the normal draw screen function. Adding two more checks per cycle does not add significant processing to the game.
__________
LOL, again why do you even try to make this stuff up. Applying this kind of inane logic simply proves that you don\'t know what you are talking about.
WHY THE HELL ARE YOU MAKING THIS CRAP UP???
Yeah it was sarcasm, but it\'s not far removed from the majority of the posts around here. Actually it\'s pretty damn near what most of the posts are about.
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I\'ll reply to all the other weak arguments directed at me later. But first it\'s time to have some fun with the most biased *** in PSX2Central history.
Originally posted by ddaryl
Welp I guess the only thing left for me to do is :laughing:
1st its become obvious that Jumpman deserves the
(immature image)
award
That\'s all you do ddaryl, use that ***cking laughing smiley for all your arguments. It just goes to show you can\'t prove me wrong which has become painfully obvious over the course of my stay here I might add. Does anyone want to see the pm ddaryl sent me? I can\'t reply to any more J&D threads because I point out the flaws in that "all mighty" game because people like him can\'t handle seeing Sony getting rightfully slammed.
And ddaryl, do you consider yourself to be some godly unbiased gamer? You have such vast ignorance to call me a "tool" when the fact remains your more biased than I am/ever will be and you know it.
Close this thread, delete this post, pm with more idle threats, do what ever you want , but you still know it. Now reply with something constructive or cowar away like always.
The PS2 is a wonderful system really. The textures are always bright and colourful. Framerate problems are very rarely noticeable, actually once you play a game enough you hardly notice them any because you can anticipate them and adjust on the fly. Actually, there will be no more framerate problems anymore because I read an interview on IGN that said new dev kits and dev tools have been shipped so we should be seeing great content (at a solid 60fps) during the next wave. I would say that 55% of the games released on the PS2 have been excellent, 25% awesome, genre shattering experiences and the rest have been mildly entertaining--perfect for a rental. I don\'t really mind that the PS2 only has 2 controller ports because I usually only have 1 friend over at a time anyway and the internet is the next big thing anyway, not home playing with a bunch of friends. I can\'t wait to buy the harddrive and modem to complete my system so that the online experience can begin. I wonder what it will cost? Does anyone know? Post a link to IGN so I can be sure the information is accurate (if the posted price is too high I\'m not going to believe it though). I gotta admit that BG is most visually and technically impressive bit of software that I\'ve ever seen. It looks AWESOME. Even though I hated the first three VFs (for arcade, SS and DC--not really good compared to Tekken), I have to say that I think VF4 looks amazing (much better than the first three). I will buy this for sure--I wonder why it took Sega 4 tries to finally get this game right? Anyone have a link that answers this question (preferably from IGN or some other reputable game reporting site)? Actually, I can\'t think of a game that is coming out that doesn\'t look awesome. I know I said this after the system launched, but this time it must be true because I have this irrational kind of blind faith--lol, I know that\'s redundant. The Crapbox and Gheycube don\'t really interest me at all. Besides I read somewhere that the crapbox is going to only be able to ship 300,000 units at launch--it\'s pathetic that a software company is trying to get into the hardware business anyway, I\'m not surprised. Some of the screenshots look OKAY, but they are probably mock ups or fakes. I bet the actually games will run in low res because I don\'t think any system is powerful enough to actually render those screens in realtime--perhaps the PS2 with the new dev tools. Maybe someone has a link that confirms this suspician (if there is a link contrary don\'t bother posting, I\'m not that interested heh). Anyway, I really think the PS2 is the best console ever (relatively speaking). Does anyone agree? We could discuss this instead of the previous ghey topic.
You must have a lot of free time on your hand.
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Ok since Ddaryl didnt say much to you Jumpman, I will add on to it, stop being a queer, there thats all I need to say
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No, ddaryl may be ignorant, but he\'s not a stereotypical moron like you. You\'ll always have that title for yourself.
Now use your little rolleyes smiley and shut up.
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Originally posted by Jumpman
No, ddaryl may be ignorant, but he\'s not a stereotypical moron like you. You\'ll always have that title for yourself.
Now use your little rolleyes smiley and shut up.
You try to start **** in every one of your post, this is why I say stop being a queer, dont start stuff with every post you make, and I find it hilarious that you think you can win in an argument with Ddaryl,:laughing: , there are you happy, good call on the rolleyes thing, hahaha
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Originally posted by Bozco
You try to start **** in every one of your post, this is why I say stop being a queer, dont start stuff with every post you make, and I find it hilarious that you think you can win in an argument with Ddaryl,:laughing: , there are you happy, good call on the rolleyes think, hahaha
Stop whining about me starting ****. This thread was long ruined before I entered it. And who says I\'m starting ****? Last time I checked your god ddaryl made the first insult as usual. Nice reading comprehension skillz you got going on there Bozco.
ddarly can\'t do anything against me besides edit my post or close the threads. Hence why he closed the J&D thread even though it was perfectly resolved. I guess he just can\'t stand people backing me up for a change. Good *** we got here.
Calling people queers=stereotypical. How can I stop being a homo-sexual when I\'m not one to begin with? Idiot.
Wow, I\'m impressed by the fact that you didn\'t use the rolleyes smiley for a change. Too bad you didn\'t make sense with the "rolleyes think" part. Way to go, retard. Screw up your only opportunity by being yourself.
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Originally posted by Jumpman
Stop whining about me starting ****. This thread was long ruined before I entered it. And who says I\'m starting ****? Last time I checked your god ddaryl made the first insult as usual. Nice reading comprehension skillz you got going on there Bozco.
ddarly can\'t do anything against me besides edit my post or close the threads. Hence why he closed the J&D thread even though it was perfectly resolved. I guess he just can\'t stand people backing me up for a change. Good *** we got here.
Calling people queers=stereotypical. How can I stop being a homo-sexual when I\'m not one to begin with? Idiot.
Wow, I\'m impressed by the fact that you didn\'t use the rolleyes smiley for a change. Too bad you didn\'t make sense with the "rolleyes think" part. Way to go, retard. Screw up your only opportunity by being yourself.
thats funny seeing the stop whining part come out of your mouth, and I use queer as a universal word, not just for homosexual, and one little typo you ass on the "think" part, plz stop acting like a little kid but if you want to keep on *****ing I\'m willing to make you look stupid
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*yawn*
Watchdog, I\'m done with this thread (It\'s going to get closed soon anyways now that Jumpman is POed.) You still haven\'t done anything to prove your credibility. You never have anything to back up what you say, and instead, you just say things like, "LOL, you know NOTHING about what you are talking about." Debating with you is like debating with a rock. If you are such a smart person, you would have backed up what you were saying at least once by now. But go ahead and continue to throw out responces like, "why do you even try to make this stuff up." That will really make you popular at these forums.
Don\'t worry though, this thread is over, but this debate isn\'t. I\'ll be back with evidence to prove that you are the one who\'s wrong.
Feel free to prove to me, or at least explain to me, why what you have said is true. Until then, you are wrong. Exactly why would being able to move the camera take a lot more processing power? Exactly why would a faster moving object take a lot more processing power? And the main thing, exactly why does a FPS game take more processing power than BG: DA? And try to keep the name calling to a minimum.
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(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theaskguys.com%2F%257Epics%2Fhook-winner.jpg&hash=6ccaae79b239ea96e2f0ed7c042afbcd9f54ee9d)
And
don´t
forgett!!!!
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnewgrounds.com%2Fbbs%2Fuser_images%2Fpics%2F1%2F140000%2Fngbbs3b8813551f772.gif&hash=7b7883dcd4ad6e80166a398cdae353db2f7a4024)
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Sorry to recap on this but i just have to say
Hmm lest see now the PS2 sold 10million worldwide in its first year.
Games like Final Fantasy 10 and gran Turismo 3 a Spec have only sold a vast number of copyes in such a short time, as well as adding to the sucsess of the console by BOOSTING PS2 sales.
The PS2 WILL have the European console market for this christman and the start on next year (along with a VERY large selection of AAA titles to be release over here)
And US and Japanese markets will benifit from a PS2 price Cut.
oh and you just know that Sony Will Drop the price when the compentition is launched , i.e. XBOX and NGC.
Which will not only help the PS2 but the industry as a whole.
OH and
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnewgrounds.com%2Fbbs%2Fuser_images%2Fpics%2F1%2F140000%2Fngbbs3b8813551f772.gif&hash=7b7883dcd4ad6e80166a398cdae353db2f7a4024)
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Firstly, you guys are losers with those links. Is this funny for you? It says a lot about you.
Secondly, like I said I don\'t care anymore. You have proved to me and anyone with any knowledge of 3D programming that you don\'t know what you are talking about. How can you sit there and type that garbage without a shred of knowledge? Does that make you feel like you are winning the argument? It\'s pathetic. You need to grow up, kid. I could go through everything again, but it wouldn\'t do any good because you don\'t listen and won\'t accept anything that isn\'t praise for the PS2. That\'s fine. Fanboys are not bad people, they are just impossible to debate with.
I will not post to this topic again. Go hug your PS2.
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Originally posted by Watchdog
I will not post to this topic again. Go hug your PS2.
Thank god! ;)
I know you\'re anti-PS2..
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Originally posted by Bozco
thats funny seeing the stop whining part come out of your mouth, and I use queer as a universal word, not just for homosexual, and one little typo you ass on the "think" part, plz stop acting like a little kid but if you want to keep on *****ing I\'m willing to make you look stupid
It\'s even more funny how you don\'t explain why you think it\'s funny in the first place. Good job. By not giving a proper explanation it makes you look like the idiot, again.
Your using "queer" as a universal word? I\'ll spare you the embarrassment of not knowing what universal truely means.
The only person who\'s acting like a little kid is you Bozco. You don\'t have a clue how to debate properly nor does your intelligence rival that of a 12 year-old. Your supposedly younger cousin Phil is a lot smarter than you. Also, the only person your making look stupid is yourself. I could not reply and you\'d still look like a complete moron, but I\'m just adding the icing on the cake. :D
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Originally posted by Jumpman
It\'s even more funny how you don\'t explain why you think it\'s funny in the first place. Good job. By not giving a proper explanation it makes you look like the idiot, again.
Your using "queer" as a universal word? I\'ll spare you the embarrassment of not knowing what universal truely means.
The only person who\'s acting like a little kid is you Bozco. You don\'t have a clue how to debate properly nor does your intelligence rival that of a 12 year-old. Your supposedly younger cousin Phil is a lot smarter than you. Also, the only person your making look stupid is yourself. I could not reply and you\'d still look like a complete moron, but I\'m just adding the icing on the cake. :D
Whats there to explain, I said its funny seeing you call me whiner, its pretty obvious that I was pointing out that all you do is whine and ***** about everything, oh you\'ll spare me what it truly means, or you just dont know what to say so you take the easy way out, and the fact that your insulting my intelligence is down right funny, how have you proved to be so much more intelligent than me, you havent so dont act all high and mighty, oh and what do you mean by supposedly younger cousin, you could have asked him yourself but he doesnt post here anymore because of idiots like you and EThugg
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Originally posted by Bozco
Whats there to explain, I said its funny seeing you call me whiner, its pretty obvious that I was pointing out that all you do is whine and ***** about everything,
Didn\'t I just say something like that???...
Get your own material. I don\'t whine or ***** about anything. It\'s called "debating. Try it sometime instead of whinning all the time.
oh you\'ll spare me what it truly means, or you just dont know what to say so you take the easy way out,
Yeah Bozco, your too good for me. What was I thinking? :rolleyes:
Using queer as a universal word is flat out idiotic since it only means one thing, moron.
and the fact that your insulting my intelligence is down right funny, how have you proved to be so much more intelligent than me, you havent so dont act all high and mighty,
Yeah, and by constantly using commas instead of proper periods your showing me a thing or two about what intelligence is all about. Go Bozco! Yeah.
Hey, what have you done to make yourself look more intelligent than me? Nothing. We all know your an idiot so don\'t bother putting a half-assed pursuation attempt up.
oh and what do you mean by supposedly younger cousin, you could have asked him yourself but he doesnt post here anymore because of idiots like you and EThugg
Can you not ****ing read? I meant he\'s SMARTER THAN YOU. Look, I put it on bolds just for you. Now get it right this time, retard.
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Ok, I dont use periods and make sentences because its only post on some site, Im not trying to be grammatically correct, and I knew exactly what you meant on the whole age thing with my cousin so I said what I said just to piss you off, oh and the whole universal word thing, people use the word cool but that only means one thing, does that make them all idiotic, good call dumbass
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People who pick on other people\'s grammar better make sure their grammar is impeccable else you end up looking foolish.
your = possessive (e.g. this is your book)
you\'re = the contraction for "you are" (e.g. you are flaming too much)
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Originally posted by Watchdog
People who pick on other people\'s grammar better make sure their grammar is impeccable else you end up looking foolish.
your = possessive (e.g. this is your book)
you\'re = the contraction for "you are" (e.g. you are flaming too much)
Wow, thanks for pointing out that mistake. You\'re my hero. ;)
Ok, I dont use periods and make sentences because its only post on some site, Im not trying to be grammatically correct,
Or is it because you can\'t sound grammaticallt correct? Either way, you\'re still a lazy ****ing idiot.
and I knew exactly what you meant on the whole age thing with my cousin so I said what I said just to piss you off,
:laughing:
Weak man, that was weak. I suppose you\'re acting like a total retard to piss me off too huh? Or are you just being your good old self?
oh and the whole universal word thing, people use the word cool but that only means one thing, does that make them all idiotic, good call dumbass
Queer has one and only one definition. Cool has several possibile definitions. There\'s an obvious difference betweem the two. Using "queer" as a universal word is completely idiotic. That\'s like me saying, "You\'re a book-bag". That means I\'m basically calling you a school bag or an item you wear on your back to carry supplies in since there is only one definition for it.
I can\'t believe I had to explain that to you. Once again, you\'ve proven to have the intelligence of a dodo bird, which is extinct by the way.
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Cool another flame war with jumpman in it.:thepimp:
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Originally posted by Jumpman
Queer has one and only one definition. Cool has several possibile definitions. There\'s an obvious difference betweem the two. Using "queer" as a universal word is completely idiotic. That\'s like me saying, "You\'re a book-bag". That means I\'m basically calling you a school bag or an item you wear on your back to carry supplies in since there is only one definition for it.
I can\'t believe I had to explain that to you. Once again, you\'ve proven to have the intelligence of a dodo bird, which is extinct by the way.
Ok Im gonna have to go out of my way just to explain this to you, what I meant when I said using queer as a universal word is that I use it in many different forms, like I could say stop being a queer and I meant stop being an idiot or anything like that, now do you get it, I can\'t believe I had to explain that to you. Once agin, you\'ve proven to have the intelligence of a dodo bird, which is extinct by the way;)
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Originally posted by Bozco
Ok Im gonna have to go out of my way just to explain this to you, what I meant when I said using queer as a universal word is that I use it in many different forms, like I could say stop being a queer and I meant stop being an idiot or anything like that, now do you get it,
You idiot. It doesn\'t extract from the initial point-using queer as a univerisal word is completely idiotic since it only has one true definition. ARGH.
But of course, retards like you can turn any word and use it in a universal way.
I can\'t believe I had to explain that to you. Once agin, you\'ve proven to have the intelligence of a dodo bird, which is extinct by the way
Yeah, the first time you ever used a period is when you copied and pasted a part of my post. :laughing: Idiot.
How original btw. :rolleyes:
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How sad I proved my point and you still won\'t admit your wrong
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Both of you shut up, although Jumpman is undoubtedly correct on his part, Bozco is a whiny little fanboy that jumps in everytime someone points out a flaw in a PS2 game or the system itself.
Bozco deserves the \'tool\' pic by Ddaryl, but of course, ddaryl wouldn\'t dare insult a Sony Fanboy.
Eric Jacob
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has our resident little \'un been bothersome again, tisk tisk little jumpman...although in your defense, i havent read the thread properly, and you may very well be right...i just jump (HA, no pun intended :rolleyes:) at every opportunity to empahasize your youth
i just thought i\'d chime in to say that indeed...this thread is...GAY...not that theres anything wrong with that
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
has our resident little \'un been bothersome again, tisk tisk little jumpman...although in your defense, i havent read the thread properly, and you may very well be right...i just jump (HA, no pun intended :rolleyes:) at every opportunity to empahasize your youth
i just thought i\'d chime in to say that indeed...this thread is...GAY...not that theres anything wrong with that
Well I am a former boy scout and they threw all there anti-gay and lesbian beliefs on me so when I say this thread is gay.
This thread is gay. I mean it and something is wrong with it.
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please shut up AlteredBeast, who didnt know you would back him up and bash me, dont stick your nose where it doesnt belong
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This thread has turned in a "mindless off-topic" :(
Please Mods close it !
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Well I have seen the GC on a Standard TV in front of me and I\'ll tell you the launch do not blow any PS2 game away at all. PS2 could do Luigi and Wave Race with no hitch. Especially Wave Race. Anyway all these little things are insignificant. I showed my mom and dad videos of GC,PS2 ,and X-Box\'s best games and they can not spot any big differences that serperate the 3. Just as your Joe casual gamer most likely won\'t. So in teh end it doesn\'t matter christ! Jumpman should be quiet cause current GC launch games do not blow PS2\'s games away at all matter of fact most of them can be done on PS2 with no prob.