PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Kituka on September 24, 2001, 11:19:28 AM
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http://home.collegeclub.com/Artstudent99/RS2RougeLeader.html
Skarbus over at the gaming-age.com forums scanned these from the Nov. EGM. That\'s why they\'re a little grainy.
WOW. Should I repeat that or will you?
Can anybody say "CG-quality graphics are now possible on a home system??!!?!!?!?!"
And on first-generation software!!!!!!
Say "identical to the movie" for me!!!!!!
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Gamecube+RS2=250
Xbox+Obi-wan=350
HARD CHOICE...not. :laughing:
The game is truly an amazing piece of work...nothing comes close(Of course, some might think MGS2 is the best, and i respect their opinions)...
Who on earth is going to belive all of that xbox bull**** this fall when they see these kinds of graphics on a system 100 dollars cheaper? NO ONE...
Thank you VERY much Factor5:)
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Ok and what other games besides this one is there? Xbox\'s lineup is much better! Halo, DOA3, Project Gotham, NFL Fever, and more!
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Originally posted by Megiddo
Who on earth is going to belive all of that xbox bull**** this fall when they see these kinds of graphics on a system 100 dollars cheaper? NO ONE...
unfortunately on the gamecube we\'ll be seeing more of the kiddie colorful games and less of the rogue leader type games...which is why i prolly wont be getting it until the 3rd parties become a factor...
until then, the xbox has dvd playback, a hard drive and mature titles thatll intrigue more teens and adults...
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Ok and what other games besides this one is there? Xbox\'s lineup is much better! Halo, DOA3, Project Gotham, NFL Fever, and more!
Halo?..yawn...20-30fps, NO on-line like promised, just your average run of the mill FPS that clones Tribes.....It\'s hardly any intrest to me.
DOA3?..Keep it, looks like ****, plays like ****..just like DOA2.
Project Gotham?..LOL, you have GOT to be joking? the damn game looks no better than the DC version..GT3 destroys it quite nicely.
NFL fever?..yawn..Looks horrible, plays like crap too...
This so-called "good" game line-up is a damn joke.
unfortunately on the gamecube we\'ll be seeing more of the kiddie colorful games and less of the rogue leader type games...
Yes yes..Lets just ignore the RE annoucement because it suits my needs...grow the hell up.
which is why i prolly wont be getting it until the 3rd parties become a factor...
Stay with the xbox, it\'s in dire need of morons...enlistment center: teamxbox.com
until then, the xbox has dvd playback, a hard drive and mature titles thatll intrigue more teens and adults...
You need to pay 30$ to play a DVD, and the HDD is of no importance....just a gimmick to lure in simple minded people..and it\'s working.
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Umm.. Im still waiting for those CG-ish screens..
Hello, people?? ;)
Yes those are very nice..
But I demand better quality!!!!
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Originally posted by Megiddo
Halo?..yawn...20-30fps, NO on-line like promised, just your average run of the mill FPS that clones Tribes.....It\'s hardly any intrest to me.
Locked at 30fps, big difference. Show me another FPS on another console that has all the action of HALO and still manages to keep a framerate like that. Bungie is still optimizing the framerates, it was said in the most recent HALO update.
DOA3?..Keep it, looks like ****, plays like ****..just like DOA2.
Looks like ****? Show me a fighter on another console with backgrounds as huge, and vast as DOA3\'s. Plays like ****? Show me a fighter that has the fast paced Jet Li style action like DOA3. Show me a fighter that lets you knock people off 4 story buildings. :p
Project Gotham?..LOL, you have GOT to be joking? the damn game looks no better than the DC version..GT3 destroys it quite nicely.
MSR didn\'t have the beautiful reflection mapping of Project Gotham, that alone makes the game look a whole lot better than MSR. but theres more... Geometry on both the enviroments and cars have been increased significantly, and the game even has some volumetric fog coming from the sewers.
... "looks no better than the DC version"... You\'re a funny one.
NFL fever?..yawn..Looks horrible, plays like crap too..
IGN says its the best looking football game ever right now. And check out the screenshots on another thread that was posted. Looks very comparable to Madden 2k2, dont you think? I guess Madden 2k2 looks like crap as well, huh?
This so-called "good" game line-up is a damn joke.
I\'m on the floor laughing right now....... Really...... :rolleyes:
You need to pay 30$ to play a DVD, and the HDD is of no importance....just a gimmick to lure in simple minded people..and it\'s working.
Charging for the DVD remote: MS trying to prevent what happened to Sony last year(People buying the system for a cheap DVD player instead of buying games. Sony and their 3rd party developers lost quite a bit of cash). And considering you\'re getting a DVD player thats of much higher quality than the PS2\'s, I think the $30 price tag is justified.
The HDD is of no importance?... Yeah, you\'re right. Being able to stream massive worlds without any bit of loading times is no big deal. Being able to store thousands upon thousands of save files while still being able to buy a cheap memory card to transfer the files over to your friends\' house is nothing to get excited about. Being able to update your games with extra characters, level editors, and other nifty features is a bunch o\' bull. And having it built-in, so all developers will be able to support the spiffy features of the HDD doesn\'t get me excited at-all... I mean, who would want all of that? Not me... Bleh...[/sarcasm] :p
Its pretty obvious that you\'re anti-Xbox... But c\'mon now, be a little more open minded.
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Locked at 30fps, big difference. Show me another FPS on another console that has all the action of HALO and still manages to keep a framerate like that. Bungie is still optimizing the framerates, it was said in the most recent HALO update.
It\'s funny how the most amazing, powerful console on the planet--Microsoft.....has to be vehemntly defended non stop because the frame-rates are laughable at best when compared to the Gamecube and the PS2 and yes, even the Dreamcast.
Looks like ****? Show me a fighter on another console with backgrounds as huge, and vast as DOA3\'s. Plays like ****? Show me a fighter that has the fast paced Jet Li style action like DOA3. Show me a fighter that lets you knock people off 4 story buildings. :p
Show me a movie where i can jump out the window and fight on the bridge..OH WAIT...I CAN\'T DO THAT? ..SO THE WHAT THE **** IS THE POINT?..it\'s a Gimmick, and a poor one at that...The enviroments are pretty damn static, small..you can\'t go anywhere..IT\'S A DAMN FIGHTER, YOU\'RE NOT GOING ANYWHERE:laughing:
Gameplay? Show me a fighter that is better than VF4..nuff said.
MSR didn\'t have the beautiful reflection mapping of Project Gotham, that alone makes the game look a whole lot better than MSR. but theres more... Geometry on both the enviroments and cars have been increased significantly, and the game even has some volumetric fog coming from the sewers.
Looks like **** next to GT3..and that\'s all i was saying...It\'s so funny how i got you go compare it to the DC version..the MIGHTY XBOX vs the DC...:laughing:
"looks no better than the DC version"... You\'re a funny one.
XBOX vs DC..now THAT\'S funny:)
IGN says its the best looking football game ever right now. And check out the screenshots on another thread that was posted. Looks very comparable to Madden 2k2, dont you think? I guess Madden 2k2 looks like crap as well, huh?
Fever looks about equal to Madden2001...i\'ll give it that.
Charging for the DVD remote: MS trying to prevent what happened to Sony last year(People buying the system for a cheap DVD player instead of buying games. Sony and their 3rd party developers lost quite a bit of cash).
And? it\'s not built-in you HAVE to buy it to unlock this feature...pretty damn pathetic for a system like the xbox..it\'s the be all end all entertainment system...yet does not deliver.
And considering you\'re getting a DVD player thats of much higher quality than the PS2\'s, I think the $30 price tag is justified.
I think buying games, not remotes is important..guess the xbox zealots do not agree.
The HDD is of no importance?... Yeah, you\'re right.
I know this.
Being able to stream massive worlds without any bit of loading times is no big deal.
What game is doing this? yeah..NONE...what massive worlds? 64megs is not enough for \'massive\' worlds.
Being able to store thousands upon thousands of save files while still being able to buy a cheap memory card to transfer the files over to your friends\' house is nothing to get excited about.
So there are going to be thousands upon thousands of games for the xbox?:laughing:
Being able to update your games with extra characters, level editors, and other nifty features is a bunch o\' bull.
It has not happen..so yes, it\'s all BULL****.
And having it built-in, so all developers will be able to support the spiffy features of the HDD doesn\'t get me excited at-all... I mean, who would want all of that? Not me... Bleh...[/sarcasm] :p
Is this suppose to matter?..you Do not need the HDD for nothing..not online gaming, in-fact...in the previous editon of Next-Gen Magazine they confirmed that there are more developers making online games on the PS2 than on the Xbox..now how about that:)
Its pretty obvious that you\'re anti-Xbox... But c\'mon now, be a little more open minded.
You know me..i know you...lets leave it at that..OLD friend;)
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Megiddo
congratulations dude I doubt anyone here could ever refer to you as a blind fanboy.
:rolleyes:
I strongly suggest you post more topics comparing console abilities. You have so much insight and understanding about these things and I think alot fo us would like to be enlightened.
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You know me..i know you...lets leave it at that..OLD friend
That reminds me!!
Let sing it.. The barney song!
"I love you.. you love me.. da da da daa da da daaa."
Bah... Cant remember it :) ;) :eyemouth:
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Originally posted by Megiddo
Stay with the xbox, it\'s in dire need of morons...enlistment center: teamxbox.com
just a gimmick to lure in simple minded people..and it\'s working.
listen a**hole...youre obviously a newbie so let me explain somethings to you....first of all....do not insult people in your defenses...no need for sarcasm because it pisses people off, specially sarcastic insults....try, (if you can) to state your opinions in a mature fashion so that we could have a good debate instead of a name calling war.....i hate you already by the way you replied to my simple comment and how youre carrying on quoting every single phrase people make and replying to each sentence [ (a-la jumpman) sorry jumpman, no offense to you, i just hate when you do that :) ] i wouldve debated my word back with you but since youre so quick to insult, then ill let the rest of the folks here handle it and Nu Gundam is doing a pretty good job so far :D
you should go to the NEWBIES COME HERE thread or the recent 10 COMMANDMENTS thread and read up.....and until you grow up and learn how to have a discussion, i have no respect for you or what you have to say.
and for the record, i called this c-unt face an a**hole because he insulted me first.
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Originally posted by Megiddo
It\'s funny how the most amazing, powerful console on the planet--Microsoft.....has to be vehemntly defended non stop because the frame-rates are laughable at best when compared to the Gamecube and the PS2 and yes, even the Dreamcast.
:rolleyes: Pretty much ignored my whole point. Tons of things going on in HALO. 30+ enemies on screen with advanced Aritificial Intelligence fighting around in a small Messhall without a hint of slowdown. Read the impressions from the first X-day on IGN...
And like I said before, framerates are still being optimized, I wouldn\'t be surprised if the game is running at a smooth 60fps in single player mode.
Show me a movie where i can jump out the window and fight on the bridge..OH WAIT...I CAN\'T DO THAT? ..SO THE WHAT THE **** IS THE POINT?..it\'s a Gimmick, and a poor one at that...The enviroments are pretty damn static, small..you can\'t go anywhere..IT\'S A DAMN FIGHTER, YOU\'RE NOT GOING ANYWHERE:laughing:
O_O; Static? Small? The beach stage stretches out as far as you can see. You can move around on that beach and go as far as the mountains in the background(Watch some of the movies that show off the title screen). Look at my other thread entitled "DOA3 Midnight Madness", one one of the new screenshots they show Gen-Fu fighting Helena... Now, the rock formations you see in the background of that screenshot: The same mountains Brad Wong and another fighter were fighting on in the E3 trailer. The stages are HUGE. And you can explore quite a bit of \'em(Much more than you could in DOA2, anyways. :p).
Gameplay? Show me a fighter that is better than VF4..nuff said.
I\'m not going to argue about gameplay, because it really depends on one\'s opinion. The majority of gamers in the U.S. like Tekken more than VF, does that mean its better? Most certainly not... Different taste, ya know?
Looks like **** next to GT3..and that\'s all i was saying...It\'s so funny how i got you go compare it to the DC version..the MIGHTY XBOX vs the DC...:laughing:
Car models are quite a step up from GT3\'s. Ask anyone whos seen it in person(You could just ask me. :D). Backgrounds, however, need some work... I think its an even trade-off.
And weren\'t you the one comparing it to the DC version? I was just trying to show you how flawed your comparision was.
XBOX vs DC..now THAT\'S funny:)
I\'m dying of laughter... Look at me! I\'m on my last breath!... Really! Look! :rolleyes:
Fever looks about equal to Madden2001...i\'ll give it that.
* Nu Gundam throws confetti.
And? it\'s not built-in you HAVE to buy it to unlock this feature...pretty damn pathetic for a system like the xbox..it\'s the be all end all entertainment system...yet does not deliver.
Correction: The PS2 is the be all end all entertainment system. Its the system that\'ll let you download movies, and search the web using AOL. ;)
Not saying thats a bad thing, but the PS2 is more of a multimedia machine than the Xbox. MS doesn\'t even have any plans for letting the Xbox surf the web at the moment. All of its \'net features will be used for games, and games only...
I think buying games, not remotes is important..guess the xbox zealots do not agree.
Then why argue about having to buy the remote in the first place?
I guess you\'re in luck... MS doesn\'t really seem to be making a big deal out of the DVD playback, they seem to be more concerned about the games than anything else. ;)
What game is doing this? yeah..NONE...what massive worlds? 64megs is not enough for \'massive\' worlds.
What game is doing this? HALO, sir. Huge worlds that stretch out as far as the eye can see. Takes quite a while to complete a mission.
And 64megs is probably enough for massive worlds like HALO... But not enough for them to be streamed constantly without any kind of break or loading screen. Its all seamless. :)
So there are going to be thousands upon thousands of games for the xbox?:laughing:
:rolleyes: You know what I meant. :p You dont need to worry about running out of space.
It has not happen..so yes, it\'s all BULL****.
* Nu Gundam snickers.
Itagaki(DOA3\'s producer) already has plans for updating the U.S. version of DOA3 through the use of the HD... Now, if DOA3 was on another next gen console, how would he go about doing this? ;o
Is this suppose to matter?..you Do not need the HDD for nothing..not online gaming, in-fact...in the previous editon of Next-Gen Magazine they confirmed that there are more developers making online games on the PS2 than on the Xbox..now how about that:)
Makes sense, since the PS2 has been out over a year and Sony\'s been working on getting their network up for only God knows how long. MS has just sent out their network information to their developers... And the plan is to have the network up Q1 next year.
You know me..i know you...lets leave it at that..OLD friend;)
So Nplayer, hows it goin\'?
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Megiddo
This guy is a troll. First he says the GC is the best system. Then when presented with an argument he uses any console, any game in order to vainly prove a point.
You\'ve never played the xbox, yet you trash the playability of the games. This is neat. Can you teach me how you do it?
IGN (they seem to be Gods around here) says the 50% finished DOA3 build is better graphically, technically and gameplay-ically (lol) than any fighter (VF and Teken). They\'ve played it, who are we to argue?
IGN says Fever looks better than any football game out there and that the gameplay is as good (in its own way) as any game out there. Again, I\'ve never played it so I\'ll defer to them.
IGN said the graphics are better in GT3 than in PG. You may have a point there. Bravo.
Those screens look good, but when is it coming out? What\'s the framerate? And finally it\'s really not that impressive. Yes, it\'s true. Take a look at it again. What beautiful backgrounds eh? How many polys are they made up of? Oh yes, zero. A black texture/sprite with white dots. That would leave a lot of system resources to make ships look that good wouldn\'t you think? This could easily be done on either the PS2 or the xbox. Get your head out of the sand and think about it for a minute.
At any rate, you are a mindless troll and will not be convinced of anything besides your ridiculous viewpoint so I\'m not going to really try.
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Originally posted by Watchdog
Those screens look good, but when is it coming out? What\'s the framerate? And finally it\'s really not that impressive. Yes, it\'s true. Take a look at it again. What beautiful backgrounds eh? How many polys are they made up of? Oh yes, zero. A black texture/sprite with white dots. That would leave a lot of system resources to make ships look that good wouldn\'t you think?
Eh... There are other stages with real polygonal BGs. And they look quite good.
This could easily be done on either the PS2 or the xbox.
PS2(Unfortunately), no... Xbox, yes(Factor5 said so themselves).
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The ONLY impresives game on GC is RL2, RE, and luigi manision. Xbox graphics so far beat gamecube pretty bad, I mean look at doa3, enclave, oddworld, project gothem, blood wake, project ego, project-k, duality, halo, jsr:f, gun valkiyle, and unreal tourment. I think I prove my point xbox has better graphics and oh yeah xbox is launching with more than 3 games. I don\'t see the big deal about gamecube or its weak graphics. Most importantly xbox has more 3rd party support. I can only name a hand full of truly impressive gamecube games, while xbox I can name a list of them. RL does look nice but thats like the only mind blowing game on the system and thats it.:thepimp: :thepimp: :thepimp:
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Well, judging from these screens I see nothing special.
And he is a troll.
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Those graphics probably are CG (or at least edited in Photoshop). The Web address mentions an "art student".
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Originally posted by Nu Gundam
Eh... There are other stages with real polygonal BGs. And they look quite good.
PS2(Unfortunately), no... Xbox, yes(Factor5 said so themselves).
Owning a PS2 doesn\'t give you insight as to its capabilities. We have yet to see what can be done. I am in no way flaming you, just pointing out the fact that we have seen very little of the PS2 being optimized. The XBOX and GC however will be easy to program for from the get go.
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Originally posted by PahnCrD
Owning a PS2 doesn\'t give you insight as to its capabilities. We have yet to see what can be done. I am in no way flaming you, just pointing out the fact that we have seen very little of the PS2 being optimized. The XBOX and GC however will be easy to program for from the get go.
Eh, I dont just own one, I also know quite a bit about its hardware. The PS2 simply isn\'t capable of throwing that many polygons, texture layers, particle effects, and light sources all at 60fps. A powerful console, no doubt, but not in the same league as the GCN...
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Originally posted by Nu Gundam
Eh, I dont just own one, I also know quite a bit about its hardware. The PS2 simply isn\'t capable of throwing that many polygons, texture layers, particle effects, and light sources all at 60fps. A powerful console, no doubt, but not in the same league as the GCN...
I don\'t know about polygons, texture layers, and light sources, but the PS2 is a particle effects monster. :) The PS2 ownz both the Xbox and NGC in this category.
About textures, from what I understand, the PS2 can have up to 20 MB of textures per frame. Not as much as the NGC, but still not too shabby.
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Originally posted by IronFist
I don\'t know about polygons, texture layers, and light sources, but the PS2 is a particle effects monster. :) The PS2 ownz both the Xbox and NGC in this category.
About textures, from what I understand, the PS2 can have up to 20 MB of textures per frame. Not as much as the NGC, but still not too shabby.
more like 27... and thats for 60 fps... at 30 fps that number doubles.
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Originally posted by Nu Gundam
Eh, I dont just own one, I also know quite a bit about its hardware. The PS2 simply isn\'t capable of throwing that many polygons, texture layers, particle effects, and light sources all at 60fps. A powerful console, no doubt, but not in the same league as the GCN...
The GC apparantly has the PS2 beat in textures... but not really in polygons... not to mentaion bezier or similar effects that the PS2 may excel... too many variables to guess at this point.
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Why does a normal screenshot post ALWAYS end up with some debate..! BTW, Nice screenshots, I doubt they\'re cg quality, but hey.. They look sweet!
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Originally posted by Nu Gundam
Eh, I dont just own one, I also know quite a bit about its hardware. The PS2 simply isn\'t capable of throwing that many polygons, texture layers, particle effects, and light sources all at 60fps. A powerful console, no doubt, but not in the same league as the GCN...
Hi Nu,
Don\'t know if you remember me from PS2web, but remembering some debates with you back then, I really doubt you know THAT much of the PS2 to say statements like "PS2 simply isn\'t capable of throwing that many polygons, texture layers, particle effects, and light sources all at 60fps".
Look at GT3 - you see lots of polygons with LOTS of effects, light sources all at constant 60fps - and apparently (accoarding to Yamauchi), it\'s running at aprox. 60 to 70% of the hardware. I doubt that anyone reallly knows how much the PS2 is really cabably of and what 100% will look like, but coming from the producer of GT3, means quite alot.
Not satisfied? Look at Jak & Daxter. Sources indicate it\'s running over 10 million polys a second (I heard 13) and it has a lot going on in there. No loading times, lots of effects -> all at constant framerate (I think 60).
So Nu, who are you to say that the PS2 isn\'t capable of "blah blah what ever"?
Well, anyway, still good to see you here,
greetz
Phil
(seven)
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Originally posted by eNeMyTooTH
Why does a normal screenshot post ALWAYS end up with some debate..! BTW, Nice screenshots, I doubt they\'re cg quality, but hey.. They look sweet!
Well... this IS "Console Debating" ;)
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Well, I\'m not going to wade through this menagiré of posts, but I\'ll put it in a very simple context.
Star Wars: Rogue Leader Rogue Squadron II, simply cannot be done on PlayStation 2 hardware, without signifigant deductions from visual quality.
Lets take pick out one thing (out of many others) for example.
Layers per texture:
GameCube\'s hardware supports up to 8 layers of effects (SP-AA, Bump-mapping, HW-lighting, Radiosity lighting, etc...) per texture, in a single pass.
PlayStation 2 can only manage to add 1 layer of effects per texture, per pass.
You see RSII uses at the least 5 effect layers per texture. Next RSII runs at a rock-solid 60FPS in 480 progressive scan-true 60FPS.
So first off, you really don\'t get a true 60 frames per second rate with PlayStation 2 as the hardware simply does not support it.
Next RSII features extremely intricate levels features millions of items of geometry.
In fact if you take a look at the link below and read the short paragraph then view the thumbnail, you\'ll get an idea of what a cutscene is comprised of, nonetheless a full-blow trench run, on the heavily armed Death Star where you\'ll end up facing around 100+ TIE\'s on screen, add to that the thousands of laser turrets, incredible AI, and the level detail itself. The technical production values behind RSII are outright massive.
Click here (http://gamecubexl.com/new/dailynews/fullnews.cgi?newsid1001271526,29889,)
Next we\'ve got the effects themselves. PS2 utilizes the well-used but rather crude from of anti-aliasing-Full Scene Anti-Aliasing (FSAA), GameCube utilizes Sub-Pixel Anti-Aliasing, a superiror form of AA which minimizes any \'blurr\' to a minimum and offers premium aliasing reduction. Then there are the lighting effects, forms of radiosity lighting, and mip mapping, which cannot be done on PS2 without shaving a lot here and adding a little there.
You\'ll end up in a damning circle if you think you can squeeze a game like RSII, effects, polys, frame rates, and all on PlayStation 2 hardware.
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Pretendo = j0 Daddy. :p
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those pics were faked :D
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Originally posted by Toxical
those pics were faked :D
A true posterchild for denial.
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There is a flaw in a lot of people arguments.
Just because the GC and Xbox are easy to develop for, DOES NOT mean that the games will not get any better. That is wishful thinking on the part of us PS2 owners. Most consoles have been easy to develop for and for each of those consoles, the last generation of software was remarkably better.
The point I\'m making is that just because PS2 is tougher to develop for doesn\'t mean that one day the graphics will be on par with the other systems.
All systems will continue to improve graphically; the only difference is that the PS2 will be a pain in the neck of developers.
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You guys should listen to Pretendo. He obviously knows what he\'s talking about.
Originally posted by Pretendo
You see RSII uses at the least 5 effect layers per texture. Next RSII runs at a rock-solid 60FPS in 480 progressive scan-true 60FPS.
So first off, you really don\'t get a true 60 frames per second rate with PlayStation 2 as the hardware simply does not support it.
You read it yourselfs, the PS2 is not capable of doing true 60 fps games. (With the risk of starting an argument, I think this deserves a :rolleyes: :D) You sounded pretty smart up until you said that Pretendo.
BTW, I am in no wait doubting the beauty of RS2. It is going to be so sweet. On that link you posted, it said that each ship was made of 30,000 polygons. Is that just for that cutsceen, or is that in game too?
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Originally posted by Pretendo
Well, I\'m not going to wade through this menagiré of posts, but I\'ll put it in a very simple context.
Star Wars: Rogue Leader Rogue Squadron II, simply cannot be done on PlayStation 2 hardware, without signifigant deductions from visual quality.
Lets take pick out one thing (out of many others) for example.
Layers per texture:
GameCube\'s hardware supports up to 8 layers of effects (SP-AA, Bump-mapping, HW-lighting, Radiosity lighting, etc...) per texture, in a single pass.
PlayStation 2 can only manage to add 1 layer of effects per texture, per pass.
You see RSII uses at the least 5 effect layers per texture. Next RSII runs at a rock-solid 60FPS in 480 progressive scan-true 60FPS.
So first off, you really don\'t get a true 60 frames per second rate with PlayStation 2 as the hardware simply does not support it.
Next RSII features extremely intricate levels features millions of items of geometry.
In fact if you take a look at the link below and read the short paragraph then view the thumbnail, you\'ll get an idea of what a cutscene is comprised of, nonetheless a full-blow trench run, on the heavily armed Death Star where you\'ll end up facing around 100+ TIE\'s on screen, add to that the thousands of laser turrets, incredible AI, and the level detail itself. The technical production values behind RSII are outright massive.
Click here (http://gamecubexl.com/new/dailynews/fullnews.cgi?newsid1001271526,29889,)
Next we\'ve got the effects themselves. PS2 utilizes the well-used but rather crude from of anti-aliasing-Full Scene Anti-Aliasing (FSAA), GameCube utilizes Sub-Pixel Anti-Aliasing, a superiror form of AA which minimizes any \'blurr\' to a minimum and offers premium aliasing reduction. Then there are the lighting effects, forms of radiosity lighting, and mip mapping, which cannot be done on PS2 without shaving a lot here and adding a little there.
You\'ll end up in a damning circle if you think you can squeeze a game like RSII, effects, polys, frame rates, and all on PlayStation 2 hardware.
Believe it or not, PS2 can do quite a lot through micro-code. Don\'t discount it just yet.. thats all i\'m sayin\'.
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Layers per texture:
GameCube\'s hardware supports up to 8 layers of effects (SP-AA, Bump-mapping, HW-lighting, Radiosity lighting, etc...) per texture, in a single pass.
GameCube supports up to 8 layers of effects per texture in a single pass, correct. The PS2 how ever, might only be pushing one per cycle, but it can do this at VERY high speeds. Don\'t forget, the Graphics Synthesizer is hooked up to one 2560 bit wide bus which allows data to be transfered at speeds equal to 48 GB/s.
What you did write though does sound impressive, but I think it\'s a little lame to debate about "this game ain\'t possible" on PS2. Sure, PS2 might have it hard with some "bottlenecks" as it is with the 1 layer per cycle, but that doesn\'t mean that RSII wouldn\'t be possible at all. If you\'ve programmed, I am sure you know that there is always a different way to get to your destination.
One simple example is the AA: first generation games rased doubts about the AA capabilities of the PS2 - and yet they were developers that managed to go arround the original Hardware-AA procedure (Volition with Summoner). The people that said this and that would not be possible in those days, is getting reality by the game. Just look at recent games and you will see that AA isn\'t an issue anymore on the PS2. Well, it isn\'t for me anyway.
Just trying to say, that the PS2 has its bottlenecks and so do the other consoles as well. But saying that this or that game would not be possible (and 1st generation) is just not right, especially because there is still so much of room left for improvement and the best is yet to come.
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Originally posted by IronFist
You guys should listen to Pretendo. He obviously knows what he\'s talking about.
You read it yourselfs, the PS2 is not capable of doing true 60 fps games. (With the risk of starting an argument, I think this deserves a :rolleyes: :D) You sounded pretty smart up until you said that Pretendo.
:laughing:
hilarious...i think pretendo is confused with the progressive dvd playback scanning that the ps2 doesnt support...thats only for dvd playback...games have nothing to do with that...
i guess nba street is really running @ 30 fps...and ffx and mgs2 and so forth.....
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Originally posted by IronFist
You guys should listen to Pretendo. He obviously knows what he\'s talking about.
You read it yourselfs, the PS2 is not capable of doing true 60 fps games. (With the risk of starting an argument, I think this deserves a :rolleyes: :D) You sounded pretty smart up until you said that Pretendo.
BTW, I am in no wait doubting the beauty of RS2. It is going to be so sweet. On that link you posted, it said that each ship was made of 30,000 polygons. Is that just for that cutsceen, or is that in game too?
Lemme go on to further explain myself.
When PS2 renders a scene it is rendered in an interlaced form, you in essence get half a screen, it\'s like blinds opening and closing and it leaves blank lines in between. So the hardwares only drawing half the picture.
With progressive scan, the whole scene is drawn and there are no scanlines visible whatsoever (hook a VCR up to and HDTV set (not decoder) or an LCD projector and you\'ll see what I mean).
I don\'t think I\'ve explained that well, but I can get some demonstration pieces.
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i know this...which is why im pist at the ps2 cause i have a high def ready tv with component video which means the progressive scanning wouldve looked nice on my tv...but the ps2 doesnt do it so im screwed...but this doesnt mean that games dont run at 60 fps cause they do...a game rendered at 60 fps has nothing to do with whether or not the ps2 scans it interlaced or progressively...the game will still run at 60fps meaning its smoother....but to my knowledge, there arent any game consoles thatll be using this progressive line scanning..not even the xbox from what ive heard...its only for dvd playback when this progressive line scanning comes into play....
progressive scanning means the dvd player is displaying the frame in 1/60th of a second as to the 1/30th of a second for interlaced....when a game is rendered @ 60 it means that there are 60 frames of animation per second...whether or not its decoded as interlaced and progressive is up to the dvd player...but doesnt stop games on cd or cartridge to be rendered at 60 cause f-zero on the n64 is running at 60 and so was turbo prop racer on the p2x....n64 being cartridge and psx been cd...
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Originally posted by Watchdog
There is a flaw in a lot of people arguments.
Just because the GC and Xbox are easy to develop for, DOES NOT mean that the games will not get any better. That is wishful thinking on the part of us PS2 owners. Most consoles have been easy to develop for and for each of those consoles, the last generation of software was remarkably better.
The point I\'m making is that just because PS2 is tougher to develop for doesn\'t mean that one day the graphics will be on par with the other systems.
All systems will continue to improve graphically; the only difference is that the PS2 will be a pain in the neck of developers.
I\'d have to disagree with you there.
Instead of focusing time, money, effort, and valuble resources coding, testing your code, coding some more, and then fighting with the hardware, you could put that into gameplay and save some big bucks in the process. This is something I\'m sure larger publishers/developers shouldn\'t have >to much< trouble with, but then again they\'d be better off with a console easier to develop for.
As for visual achivements, I\'m sorry to but it so bluntly, but PlayStation 2\'s a bit behind the others, sure it\'s CPU (when fully tapped (as in proper use of the vector units) is more powerfull than Xbox\'s, but it lacks a bunch of on-hardware algorhythms such as, real-time texture decompression, a spector of visual effects, and many other usefull code-sets which would be much easier to work around if they where hardware based. Add to that the lack of a good amount of RAM for virtually any purpose and 1 texture layer per pass, it\'d be impossible for PS2 to catch up in the later generations. Even though games out right now generally look the same, it\'s because many of these titles are ports that first appeared on PS2 and the developers are to lazy to fully tweak their graphics engines for whatever platform they\'re developing for *cough*EA.
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youre right pretendo...sony f*cked up on this one...they couldve had themselves an almost perfect console had they put more effort in the texture department and anti-aliasing...although they have a way to stream textures which would save memory, the resolution on them isnt as high as the dreamcast, xbox or gamecube therefore they will always look blurrier....it sux but in due time, xbox and gamecube games will look better if developers do their job right because the hardware capabilites of these newer consoles are superior.
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You mis-read my post. The PS2 is not nearly as powerful as xbox or GC--CPU included. So in essence, I\'m agreeing with you.
All these buzz words that Sony fed us are BS if you ask me. All these "hiden" features and abilities is Sony\'s way of covering up their shoddy system archetecture. The PS2 is a good system, but it is outclassed by the GC and Xbox. I\'m confident that I\'ll get another year out of it (2 max) before the GC and xbox start out pacing it in terms of graphics and games.
I was on this end with the genesis too. It was a great system, but slowly it began to show its age and the SNES started to look better and better. After a while it became aparent that 3rd party developers did SNES ports to the Genesis as an afterthought and the quality just wasn\'t there. After that it wasn\'t long before the SNES was in the lead (in terms of system sales desipte being incredibly far behind when it was released.)
I am not really comforted by the lead that Sony has. Sony sold this many consoles in a year and a half. It is not inconceivable that the xbox or GC can match that (or at least post impressive numbers--preorders alone for the xbox are impressive). Especially since the PS2 will not be able to go toe to toe with these newer consoles in a year or so I just think the casual gamer--motivated by graphics alone--will go with a newer system.
I also think that like the snes/genesis race, numbers sold is not an accurate figure in terms of active PS2 owners. I purchased a SNES after it became evident that the better games were coming out for the SNES. After that I didn\'t buy anymore games for the Genesis. Therefore, even though I was counted as a Genesis owner, I no longer patronized the system. This may not be the case now, but as PS2 owners buy GCs or Xboxes, it may become a factor. The past generation was won by exclusives, but this generation will be won by graphics because there are far fewer exclusives this generation. Once devs release games for multiple systems and the PS2 is the worst looking version, I can\'t see the casual gamer going with the PS2.
I realize this is not a popular opinion around here, but I can\'t think the PS2 is untouchable.
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Everything back to normal, ay? ;)
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I don\'t wish to be rude but you people handing down word about what the PS2 can\'t do are full of crap. The reason I say so is from reading statements made by developers who work on and are very excited about the possibilities the PS2 represents rather than some tech groupie or grunt ragging on Sony for not getting it right. I\'M excited about what I\'ve seen to date on the PS2. The xbox and GC have a long ass way to go to look better enough for me to begin to care.
PLUS I have plenty enough reason to believe the PS2 will keep up in its own way with any improvements that could be tweaked out of the other two consoles. All three are looking close at the moment, which wasn\'t supposed to happen according to all the coc-ky-talkin-know-it-alls six months ago. And please don\'t even drag Sega\'s sorry butt in here. They were beat by their own lousy track record of making short lived consoles before the DC was even released.
Games speak louder than words. Sony is roaring right now, screw how much better the other two **might** look in a year or two and anyone whose stuck with only that pitiful point as ammo to debate with against the PS2. Pretty common of late
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Uhhhh... THIS ain\'t too shabby either:) Check out Fastsons thread in the main forum. This is a real-time in game PS2 shot. The developers claim a 60fps rate also:)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.appeal.be%2Fimages%2FTLP%2FMedias%2FGrassAndTrees.jpg&hash=0d63a69f48e43c082c012b5c5c4112112d2ef9e7)
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Originally posted by CygnusXI
Uhhhh... THIS ain\'t too shabby either:) Check out Fastsons thread in the main forum. This is a real-time in game PS2 shot. The developers claim a 60fps rate also:)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.appeal.be%2Fimages%2FTLP%2FMedias%2FGrassAndTrees.jpg&hash=0d63a69f48e43c082c012b5c5c4112112d2ef9e7)
Could that be procedural... hmm? Definatley one of PS2\'s strengths.
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Actually it was suposed to be the other way around. GC and xbox titles weren\' supposed to be able to match 2nd and 3rd gen PS2 titles. Before any console was released, preliminary specs were out there and every games journal around did comparisons and there seemed to be no clear winner. They went one step further and said by the time the new consoles are released everything should be rosey. Most even went as far as saying the Xbox has very little chance at all.
It doesn\'t look like that now. Already we are seeing the new consoles out perform PS2. You\'re right, it\'s not enough to have me lusting for a new console, but everyone here (except me and PS2 haters) refuses to acknowledge any deficiency in the PS2 hardware or software and it\'s pissing me off.
I\'ve read so much crap about how bad GC and xbox. Everyone is taking pot shots, posting sales numbers and flaming anyone that has a different opinion. This is all just a little too far--completely dismissing the fact that the PS2 has some serious competition is ridiculous.
Look, I want the PS2 to succeed as much as anyone--and let\'s be honest, the PS2 has a big enough user base to sustain itself until PS3--but the facts are the facts and Sony does not look untouchable anymore.
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Originally posted by Watchdog
Actually it was suposed to be the other way around. GC and xbox titles weren\' supposed to be able to match 2nd and 3rd gen PS2 titles.
Well that\'s a new one on me, especially after reading all the spew of self-appointed experts evaluating console specs on boards like this one. If genuine authorities were saying PS2 should look better than the other two by the time they launch I must of missed it. Either way, I checked out Fatson\'s thread with more pics of Outcast and honestly can\'t see how the PS2 is falling short of the others in any way. And you\'re pissed because why... other PS2 fans don\'t think those pics should be more beautiful?
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I\'m pissed because people call me a troll, anti-ps2, etc. I\'m pissed because it took a year and a half to get decent titles. I\'m pissed because this was supposed to be so powerful that the US was worried that Iraq would use it for military operations (never happened, and never was true). I\'m pissed because first gen titles look better (and have reviews to suport it) than anything for the PS2 out now (advanced screenshots mean nothing).
I\'m not really pissed--it\'s too strong a word really. But I am upset with Sony and their apathetic attitude, their hype machine that has produced really nothing memorable for me. I\'ve had some fun over the year that I\'ve owned it absolutely, but nothing like what was promised. Exclusive titles are leaving the PS2 and going to the "more powerful" consoles and I can\'t help but be concerned.
If one of the two consoles breaks through and succeeds (this isn\'t at all unlikely) then the PS2 is in trouble. Say this console is the xbox (I count the MS box as the larger threat). Say the xbox makes a big impact during the first year. Gates has spent huge amounts of cash on a risky venture into an untested market. If he gets indication that the xbox can succeed how much money would he be willing ot spend then? He doesn\'t fool around when it comes to business. How many exclusives could he buy? MS rarely fails is really all I\'m saying.
Devs want money above all else--they are a business afterall. Devs want to express themselves and show off, grow as designers and be the best that there is (this is no different from any other field). If one console allows them to do this easier than another (be it a more friendly piece of hardware or more power available) I can\'t see them not choosing the path of least resistence. They want to make great games--they do not want problems or bottlenecks.
This is how I see it. Call me a pessimist or a troll or whatever you want, but I don\'t think there is another way to look at it.
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Watchdog, I don\'t think you are a fanboy or a troll. I just think you whine a little too much. If you are so "pissed" at Sony and the PS2, then sell your PS2 and go buy an Xbox or NGC when they are released. Otherwise, shut up and enjoy what you have! Do less whining and more doing. We could sit here and argue for days whether the PS2 is good or not, but that is based entirely on oppinion and it would get us nowhere.
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It\'s not whining. I\'m bringing up concerns. Talking much like everyone else. If I was raising concerns about the xbox or GC you wouldn\'t call me a whiner, you\'d call me right and extoll once again the virtues of the PS2 (if not you then dozens of other posters here).
I\'d get responces like "WORD!" or "Gheycube suxors!" or Microcrap blows!"
This is part of the problem. I guess I shouldn\'t be surprised as this is a PS2 forum.
I came here because I was reading a different forum and heard this was the best forum on the net (with reguards to real discussions, no flaming or fanboyism). It did seem like that for a while--there are people here with REAL opinions--but they get smothered, flamed and don\'t post much.
It\'s too bad people are so caught up with defending their purchase and attacking anything that threatens their choice (that being that they made a good purchase and their system has to be the best system) that no real discussions can go on. I tend to read those posts that endlessly praise game X, but not post because if I like the game there is no need to add to the long list of praise, and if I don\'t like the game I usually keep quiet because there is little point trying to express a dissenting view around here even if it is respectful, well thought out and honest.
I don\'t think I\'d sell my PS2. It\'s worth more to me then the couple hundred bucks I\'d earn. If I\'m going to buy a different console then I\'ll just buy it and use my PS2 as a second DVD player for my small bedroom tv. I have a good job and can afford it (besides I\'m looking forward to VF4) that\'s not the issue the issue is....oh never mind.
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I would agree with those concerns if they really were concerns, but they\'re usually not that big of deal. For example:
All these "hiden" features and abilities is Sony\'s way of covering up their shoddy system archetecture.
Your concern is that the PS2 has shoddy architecture, yet developers are already making brilliant looking games for it. Next years games look probably about twice as good as this year\'s games look, and that\'s saying a lot because this year\'s games look great. Look at Outcast II and Stuntman. No game this year looks nearly as good as those. If developers can continue to improve the look of their games throughout the PS2\'s life as much as they are from now to next year, would you still consider the PS2 to have shoddy architecture?
The PS2 has way more going for it than going against it.
Bad:
- It\'s a hard console to program for for beginners.
- -----I\'ll let you fill in the rest here-----
Good:
- Getting a lot easier to program, as we can see by comparing the new games to the old games, and next year\'s games to this year\'s games.
- Has a kind of architecture that is not only innovative, but very powerful as well. PS2 games will dramatically increase in quality throughout its life.
- Has a ton of third party support, and their first party is a lot better than ever before. Sony\'s first party for the PSX was almost non-existant. Now we are seeing a new first party game just about every other month, and most of them are actually good.
- Has shipped 17,910,000 world wide as of the end of August. (And has probably sold around 16.5 million)
- Has the biggest head start in video game history.
- Has the trust and respect from millions of happy PSX owners.
- Has the best fall lineup out of all three consoles.
- Has online gaming coming this fall.
- Has a built in DVD player.
- -----Feel free to add more here-----
Whether or not you like what Sony has done with the PS2, you have to admit that right now is a great time to be a PS2 owner. :)
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Um...some of you guys have absolutley no life whatsoever. How can you sit there and argue about *lisp* videogames *lisp* and type endless pages of useless ignorant gibberish? It\'s nuts!!
Just play the games and enjoy them, or go outside and hang out with...um...friends and...girls (even though they\'re more trouble than there worth sometimes).
Sorry, just having a bad day...:shy: :sconf:
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Originally posted by EviscerationX
Um...some of you guys have absolutley no life whatsoever. How can you sit there and argue about *lisp* videogames *lisp* and type endless pages of useless ignorant gibberish? It\'s nuts!!
With that reasoning, why do we even come to these forums at all? We could easily go to IGN for all the gaming info we need, so why come here? To answer your question, I like video games and everything about them. I think debating with others about videogames is fun. I like to hear other people\'s views on things, even if I don\'t agree with them.
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Um...some of you guys have absolutley no life whatsoever. How can you sit there and argue about *lisp* videogames *lisp* and type endless pages of useless ignorant gibberish? It\'s nuts!!
so why does that mean we have no life? and who is the person who needs more of a life...people who enjoy a hobby of theirs and like debating about it...or the person who wastes their time complaining about those who like arguing? :rolleyes:
get over it man
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Originally posted by IronFist
Look at Outcast II and Stuntman. No game this year looks nearly as good as those.
Aaaahhhh..... Hrrrmmm...
... (https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wwfwrestlinggames.com%2Fnews%2Ficons%2Ficon50.gif&hash=ece522cc2bfe76ceb5d8ab9dd514a99c0192bc5e)
Thats debatable, my man. :D
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Originally posted by Nu Gundam
Aaaahhhh..... Hrrrmmm...
... (https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wwfwrestlinggames.com%2Fnews%2Ficons%2Ficon50.gif&hash=ece522cc2bfe76ceb5d8ab9dd514a99c0192bc5e)
Thats debatable, my man. :D
Yeah, I thought about putting an IMO after that, but then I forgot about it. My attention span has been destroyed due to lack of sleep and too much TV/video games. :)
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Yeah you with 2100 posts should talk EviscerationX. WTF?!