PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Flamebrain on October 18, 2001, 10:00:28 AM
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Is Gamecube a more powerful system? If not, why?
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Overall.. Dont know..
GC will have better graphics ect..
But I think the PS2 can push more polygons..
I read two very intresting articles about this..
They said PS2 was as powerful as GC..
Ill see if I can find them.
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Hi friend, have you notice there is a "console debatting forum"? Well, this thread must be there, and admins will move it.
In the other hand, I must say NGC is more powerful than PS2, but not sufficient. A console doesn´t win the war for its chips or capabilities, it wins the war because its games, and PS2 wins in this.
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I agree with Adan..
Power doesn’t win you a console war.. Never has and never will..
But.... From what I\'ve read on this PS2 seems to have the same power as GC..
And with the big learning curve we\'re going to see a huge difference in PS2s graphics by the time PA2 (Performance Analyzer2 I call it "Gods gift to developers" :D ) comes out..
We will see in 5 years ;) :fro:
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From what I\'ve read, GC has more power, but thats all on paper, so far from what I\'ve seen they are about even
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They are very different, the PS.2 can push more raw poligons, but the info Sony gave out said that it can push around 70 million "untextured" poligons, however Nintendo were more honest and said they could do about 10-12 million poly\'s with heavy textures. And the GC is better equipped to deal with heavy textures than the PS.2, however in those very few games that we\'ve seen we haven\'t seen those wonderful textures that we were promised.
I\'d say they are on par with each other, however it should be noted that the PS.2 design is ratically different than other competing consoles, and it has yet to be tapped to it\'s full potential. And the fact that "very" hard to program for the console since there is no specific API (that I know of) the PS.2 will be getting better looking games for pretty long, given that it will keep it\'s strong 3rd party support (Sony will see to that). Because the eaze of developing for the X-Box (Direct X) and the GameCube (OpenGL) will give them better looking launch games, but they will probably be maxed out before the PS.2.
:)
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I think the math PS2 can do is alot better, but GC can throw a good weight of polygons around on it with 6:1 compression texture ratio.
The first gen GC games look alot better than the newest SP2 games, IMO. but I don\'t really think GC looks all that fun.
what matters is the games, and GC doesn\'t have many games for it period, looks like it is shaping up to be another N64, which can be good or bad depending on how you look at it.
Eric Jacob
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Technically speaking, the GC is the most powerful, however metaphorically speaking the PS2 is. :nerd:
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NO
Technically speaking the GC is not the most powerful.
Graphically Xbox will prove to be more powerful then GC , and with its harddrive Xbox will have a boat load more options to install into its games
The PS2 may not be the grpahics champion but like Altered Beast says and I\'ll elaboratre some more. The PS2 can do the math
Its has a multi processor CPU, and its the only 128bit CPU in any of the three consoles. What the PS2 lacks in texture strengths that the Xbox and GC have it makes up inn its abilities to do simulataneous calculations. The PS2 can do multiple things simulataneously. Which games like Jak and Daxter show off and to a lesser extent the physics in GT3 and soon coming Wipeout Fusion while maintaining strong graphical quality. Ps2 games will have its own set of strengths beyond the graphic arguments
As for GC. Its a machine with enough power to compete with Xbox and PS2, and excel at some things just like the PS2 and Xbox, as for more powerful I really don\'t think it is
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Graphics is not always everything, remember back when N64 was up against the PSX? N64 had better looking graphics but the PSX still dominated in my opinion. What I find strange about the X-Box is it\'s just like a PC! I mean the processor, video card, & etc can all be obtained for your personal computer. What I don\'t understand is how the X-Box could push games like it does (yet I havent seen any in action so I\'m unsure) better than a PC with the same hardware (or better) with more RAM. Doesnt it run some version of Windows also? Correct me if I\'m wrong. This doesnt sound like I\'m talking any sense, I cant explain it but It seems like the way the XBox is it\'s just like a PC & would run games not as good as my high-end computer, yet some of the stuff I seen on the Dreamcast I know I would never see on my PC as far as the graphics are. Some one help me out here, LOL. Try to make what I\'m talking about make more sense.
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XBOX:
CPU - 733 Mhz Intel PIII
Graphics Processor - 300 Mhz Custom NVidia CPU
Total Memory - 64 MB
Memory Bandwidth - 6.4 GB/sec
Polygon Performance - 150 M/sec
Audio Channels - 256
Broadband Enabled - YES
Hard Drive - Internal
PlayStation 2:
CPU - 300 Mhz MIPS
Graphics Processor - 150 Mhz Sony GS
Total Memory - 38 MB
Memory Bandwidth - 3.2 GB/sec
Polygon Performance - 66 M/sec
Audio Channels - 48
Broadband Enabled - Future Upgrade
Hard Drive - Add-on
GameCube:
CPU - 405 Mhz Power PC
Graphics Processor - 202.5 Mhz custom chip
Total Memory - 43 MB
Memory Bandwidth - 3.2 GB/sec
Polygon Performance - 6-12 M/sec
Audio Channels - 64 ADPCM
Broadband Enabled - Optional
Hard Drive - N/A
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want more SPECS on each system ? go to The Video Game Palace (http://www.thevgpalace.com) or CLICK on the link below and CLICK on each systems SPECS
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Originally posted by EnforcerX
. What I find strange about the X-Box is it\'s just like a PC! I mean the processor, video card, & etc can all be obtained for your personal computer. What I don\'t understand is how the X-Box could push games like it does (yet I havent seen any in action so I\'m unsure) better than a PC with the same hardware (or better) with more RAM. Doesnt it run some version of Windows also? Correct me if I\'m wrong.
PC games and their developers are handcuffed by all the people out there who are not running the same top of the line equipmant.
PC games are made to be able to play on as many PC\'s as possible while still expanding the technology. This means all those people who own Geforce 3\'s right now are playing games that barely push the limitis of a Geforce 2 cauuse only a few own top technology
ALso is all the diffeent mother boards, CPU\'s and CPU Speeds, different amounts of memory each person has in their PC . A developer has to build a game that can appease a lower common denominator
Xbox doesn\'t have this limitation and dev\'s can go ahead and push the hardware as far as they can without worry
thats why
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Nice...:)
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Bandit
Those specs don\'t really tell any of the story cause all three utilize different architextures to accomplish things differently
and let me expand on everything I said already.
All the machines have strengths and weaknesses, all will produce great games catering to the systems strengths. None of the 3 remaining consoles will be dwarfed or dwarf the others.
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Damn, ddaryl manige to jump in and explain everything before I chad a chance to show off :(
From now on I\'ll never leave so I\'ll always be the first to answer :p j/k
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http://www.consolewire.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000556.html
that has great info on the PS2 and why its more powerful than people think, can learn alot... a *must* read
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Good info, thanx mates ;)
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bandit, you are totally wrong with the memory bandwidth, the PS2 has a higher bandwidth than GC and Xbox!
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Xbox and gcn are all stronger than ps2. But this generation will be determined my games not graphics. Next time I think nothing but processing power will rule.
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Graphically Xbox and GC have a definite edge but again the PS2 Emotion Engine is easily the most impressive processor in any of the 3 consoles which will translate into strengths in the other departments of game developing and will give PS2 games an edge in areas
Xbox has the harddrive which gives it a big edge in the amount of things it can do in games.
If I had to give and overall score of total capabilities Xbox I think will be the strongest while the PS2 and GC stay close behind but equal each other out do to their different strengths. The overall edge going to the PS2 for the amount of content and 3rd party support
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Specs comparision
graphic comparison
XBOX:
polygon counts with no effects: 125 mil poly per sec
polygon counts per frame at 60fps: a little over 2 million poly per frame with no effects
polygon counts with texture and alpha blending: 100 mil pps
per frame at 60fps: 1.6 million per frame
pixel fill rate: 6.4 billion pixel per sec no effects
pixel fill rate per frame at 60fps: 107 million pixel per frame fill on 3d polygonal characters, enviroment, etc.
pixel fill rate with texture and alpha blend: 4 billion pixel per sec
pixel fill rate with texture and alpha blend per frame at 60fps: 67 million pixels
PS2
polygon counts with no effects: 75 million poly per sec
poly count per frame at 60fps: 1.25 million per frame (no effects)
polygon counts with bezier and alpha blending and texture: 16 million polygon per sec.
per frame at 60fps: 267 thousands
pixel fill rate: 4.8 billion per second (no effects)
per frame at 60fps: 80 million pixels per frame
pixel fill rate with alpha blending and texture: 2.4 billion per second
per frame at 60fps: 40 million
pixel fill rate with every effects turn on: 1.2 billion per sec
per frame at 60hz: 20 million
gamecube
polygon counts with effects: 6 - 12 million per second
polygon counts with no effects: (they didn\'t say so it might be less than ps2)
per frame at 60hz: 1 hundred thousands to 2 hundred thousands
pixel fill rate: Nintendo don\'t mention how many pixel can it fill per second but my guess is around ps2.
Final Conclusion:
Notice that PS2 can do bezier effect, that\'s why it push ps2 from 75 million down to 16 million and alpha blending.
If XBOX can do bezier do, then it will push down from 125 million to 30 million pps, but xbox artitecture is different than ps2. It have different effects than ps2 have and can do multi texture which ps2 lack.
Same with gamecube, which can\'t do bezier, if nintendo wanted to include bezier in the hardware, then it will push it down further, like to 3 million poly per sec...but like xbox, nintendo can do multi texture and 6:1 texture compression which ps2 lack.
If ps2 have texture compression, then 4mb of vram is more than enough. Either that or add more VRAM, then the result will be pure uncompress texture which obviously is better than gamecube which only have 3 mb ov vram.
Uncompress looks much better than compress, but if done professionally, people can\'t tell much of any difference. same with dvd mpeg2, it is 40:1 compression and still maintain high quality.
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What the hell is bezier??
Anyways..
I talked to Outcast 2 developers and they said they used about 300 000polys/frame (18mpps) (They said they thought to be pushing PS2 to 75%.. 75% out of 25mpps is a little over 18mpps. Though they weren’t sure yet.. And they\'ll soon be using the PA2)
They say PS2 is able to do about 25mpps in a "real game" world..
Oh.. And PS2 can do multi-textures in software.. But that will take a hit on the CPU :)
(Jason said they easily could do it.. Plus GT3 uses 4texturelayer at some areas..)
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How in the world is this not in Console Debating? Let\'s see if I still have my magic powers....
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Originally posted by fastson
What the hell is bezier??
Anyways..
I talked to Outcast 2 developers and they said they used about 300 000polys/frame (18mpps) (They said they thought to be pushing PS2 to 75%.. 75% out of 25mpps is a little over 18mpps. Though they weren’t sure yet.. And they\'ll soon be using the PA2)
They say PS2 is able to do about 25mpps in a "real game" world..
Oh.. And PS2 can do multi-textures in software.. But that will take a hit on the CPU :)
(Jason said they easily could do it.. Plus GT3 uses 4texturelayer at some areas..)
True that ps2 can do 25 million polygons or more with every effects turn on except bezier. I hate when people say oh we\'ll see this game up to 18 million polygons on screen. That\'s what I would consider cow****! Because if that game is running 18 million polygons on screen, then probably only 1 frame of motion a second. That would be the most extremely annoying frame rate. Fatson, you\'re correct about 18 million pps is 300 thousands polygons per frame, just divide it by 60 (the amount of motion picture we\'ll see in a sec.) So to be correct, we are actually seeing hundred thousands of polygon on screen.
What\'s bezier you ask?
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpsxmedia.ign.com%2Fmedia%2Fnews%2Fimage%2Fgheart.jpg&hash=03dd118100289e56adfd43f7d9aaf2dfa44435d5)
see that pic?
here is the site
http://psx.ign.com/news/6967.html
a bit of it:
I think that people perhaps are overestimating the power of this new chipset, at least in respect to its real world polygon-pushing prowess. While the PlayStation 2 could theoretically push around 55 million polygons, the real world use will be probably be closer to about 6 or 8 million once things like Bezier curve geometry, texture maps, game physics, AI, and other game information is addressed. The important question is how many polygons can the PlayStation 2 render to the screen. There is a distinct possibility that processing bottlenecks might limit the polygon rendering number to a more ‘down to earth’ level than the 13 to 30 million. We’ll have to wait until Sony reveals the complete specs of the finalized system, but I expect around Voodoo 3 performance. It is obviously no slouch however, and it comes close to the theoretical limit of display capabilities for most monitors....Bezier curves are curves have 4 control points, 2 of them define the endpoints of the curves and the other two define the curve itself. Generally they are more intuitive to use than nurbs, which have control points that lie outside of the curve itself and can be hard to adjust by artists types (myself included). Bezier curve functions have been around for years in artistic applications like Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop, as well as most of the major 3D modeling programs. Nurbs can create smoother curves than Beziers, but Beziers can produce more convoluted and sharply angled curves. At Mainframe, like most production houses that utilize computer graphics, computer models are built using combinations of Beziers, nurbs, and polygons, depending on the modeling effect required.
this news was in February 1999, so it was over 2 and a half years old. At that time ps2 wasn\'t completed yet until september 1999 where everything begin to take into shape. So, the final ps2 can do up to 66 million pps instead of the 55 million.
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Ok thanks Know-it-all..
So instead of saying 18mpps, should I say 300 000polys per frame at 60fps?
Or?
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Originally posted by fastson
Ok thanks Know-it-all..
So instead of saying 18mpps, should I say 300 000polys per frame at 60fps?
Or?
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Originally posted by fastson
Ok thanks Know-it-all..
So instead of saying 18mpps, should I say 300 000polys per frame at 60fps?
Or?
No, just simply put it this way. 300,000 poly on screen. Unless you want to say 300,000 polys per frame at 60fps...which i think it was kinda long...Gamecube doesn\'t really impress me that much for a system that still haven\'t come out to in the state yet. Graphically, xbox beats gc and ps2. I have to correct another thing, ps2 have a bandwidth of 48 gigabytes per second while xbox have 6.4 gigabytes. why? my guess is xbox have more RAM memory or something that\'s why it doesn\'t need that much bandwidth while ps2 VRAM is low, streaming needs a lot of bandwidth that\'s why it have a much higher bandwidth...
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THEY ALL LOOK THE SAME TO ME.
As long as the game plays good... I have no problem with how many polys or whatever... :)
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I\'ve heard alot of people say that because of the Emotion Engine being so powerful it can do things that the other consoles cant. ddaryl has already said this in this thread.
But what sort of things can we expect to see? Is it things like better physics and AI??