PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: CS2x on November 02, 2001, 10:31:10 AM
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Nintendo\'s past ethics and monopolization of videogames are the sole reason videogames on consoles have taken so long to evolve in their content. Compare console game themes to PC game themes and you\'ll see what I\'m speaking of. It wasnt until the N64 that Nintendo realized it had to change in order to compete, and it was Sega that first started pushing the envelope for adult content in videogames back in the Genesis days. If Nintendo had their way, no gamer over 18 would play videogames. Or in Myamoto\'s words, "TRUE gamers are around 15." Thank God Myamoto doesnt run the company, because his newest efforts would cause Nintendo to fall on their arse, IMO. It looks like 2nd and 3rd parties are gonna carry Nintendo this go around.
If you think I\'m flaming Nintendo, its because I am. :) Nintendo is changing because it has to, not because it wants to.
Thankyou.....
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*ooseven kicks BIG CLOCK back into life and waitto see how long it takes MM to join in the Nintendo Destroying *
i will be Holding my breath till he dose
:hold: :hold: :hold:
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so true. I dont know how they keep having SUCCESS with their systems even with the unseemingly lack of innovation in them.
look at Gameboy.
NEC, Atari, and Sega all made WONDERFUL color handhelds with much higher specs and in some respects much higher quality of titles.
It wasnt til about 96 (I think) that Nintendo finally released a colorized version of the gameboy, which was still very behind in terms of technology. I don\'t think any game on GBC looks as good as Sonic did on game gear.
Finally, less than a year ago, they release a 32-bit handheld. Much to my surprise (yeah right) the graphics are where the SNES was almost 10 years ago Gimme a break Nintendo.
What we need is someone like Sega, Sony, MS, or even a new guy, who is willing to put money and time behind a handheld project that will significantly put Nintendo in it\'s place. I do recall Sega taking a large chunk of market when game gear first came out, then they ended up supporting 5 systems at once, and that killed them.
COME ON!
Eric Jacob
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doesnt seem so random to me...
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Originally posted by AlteredBeast
so true. I dont know how they keep having SUCCESS with their systems even with the unseemingly lack of innovation in them.
There is no developer out there more innovative than Nintendo has consistently been. It is their calling card, and is the greatest factor to their continued success. Frankly, the significant majority of the gaming community finds their software to be refreshing and unique, generation upon generation. They may not be techonology mongers, but they are innovative.
look at Gameboy. NEC, Atari, and Sega all made WONDERFUL color handhelds with much higher specs and in some respects much higher quality of titles.
Yes, however NEC, Atari, and Sega all lacked innovation in their hardware and software. I agree, the GB library back in those days was almost as sucky as the libraries of the GameGear, Lynx, and TurboExpress. And that was the main reason why I never purchased any of those systems. I only got a GBC when they started releasing some power titles, like MGS, Zelda Oracles, Dragon Quest games, enhanced Pokemon adventures, Mario Tennis, and a bunch of other truly unique and refreshing titles.
It wasnt til about 96 (I think) that Nintendo finally released a colorized version of the gameboy, which was still very behind in terms of technology. I don\'t think any game on GBC looks as good as Sonic did on game gear.
Yes, graphically, the GG was superior to the GBC, but the gameplay over graphics mantra that Nintendo loves so much pretty much deals with that. The GG has prettier titles, that sucked more.
Finally, less than a year ago, they release a 32-bit handheld. Much to my surprise (yeah right) the graphics are where the SNES was almost 10 years ago Gimme a break Nintendo.
The GBA is already surpassing the SNES in graphical prowess, and this when comparing late-gen SNES titles to 1st gen GBA titles. Yes, they are comparitive, and yes, they are similar, but you cannot fault the GBA for this, fault the software developers who are having a field day porting over SNES classics. For better or for worst. If you take the more unique GBA titles, like THPS2, Boxing Fever, SSF2T Revival, Golden Sun, and others, then you have to agree that they would have been impossible on the SNES. SSF2T Revival is questionable, but some of the special effects and additions to the engine would have made the game run worse, like SFA2 SNES did when compared to other ports.
What we need is someone like Sega, Sony, MS, or even a new guy, who is willing to put money and time behind a handheld project that will significantly put Nintendo in it\'s place. I do recall Sega taking a large chunk of market when game gear first came out, then they ended up supporting 5 systems at once, and that killed them.
Sega tried again with their Nomad. Again, awesome graphics, bad idea. Why release a handheld that is dead before it launched? Existing Genesis library = cool. Future support = nil. I fully expect Sony and MS to attempt it also. SNK\'s NeoGeo Pocket also was technically superior to the GBC, but it lacked software and developer support, because it brought nothing new to the industry, and of course, had no mass market appeal. As for a "new player" in the handheld industry. Remember Red Jade? No? Hahah, there is a reason for that.
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Originally posted by CS2x
Nintendo\'s past ethics and monopolization of videogames are the sole reason videogames on consoles have taken so long to evolve in their content. Compare console game themes to PC game themes and you\'ll see what I\'m speaking of. It wasnt until the N64 that Nintendo realized it had to change in order to compete, and it was Sega that first started pushing the envelope for adult content in videogames back in the Genesis days. If Nintendo had their way, no gamer over 18 would play videogames. Or in Myamoto\'s words, "TRUE gamers are around 15." Thank God Myamoto doesnt run the company, because his newest efforts would cause Nintendo to fall on their arse, IMO. It looks like 2nd and 3rd parties are gonna carry Nintendo this go around.
If you think I\'m flaming Nintendo, its because I am. :) Nintendo is changing because it has to, not because it wants to.
Thankyou.....
First of all, I would like to go on record and say that Nintendo is not changing, at least not internally. Their priorities and even their methods are consistent with their past dealings. The only way they have changed is by embracing others who will do the change for them. The internal Nintendo teams, EAD, Intelligent Systems, NCL, etc are all working on the same kinds of games that they have historically worked on.
Yes, their past ethics and monopolization of the industry in the 8 and 16 bit eras were definitely issues that needed to be dealt with. Unfortunately, they failed to do so for the 32/64 bit era, but they seem to have wisened up significantly. No more "dream team" exclusivity demands, 3rd party friendly licensing policies and storage media, a more thorough yet also more open approach to 3rd parties, etc.
Furthermore, by surrounding themselves with talented 2nd parties, like RareWare, NST, Retro Studios, Silicon Nights, Left Field Studios, NDCube, etc, they are pretty much guaranteeing that we will see quality titles of those kinds of games that Nintendo has not historically dealt with (Conker, Eternal Darkness, etc.), all the while leaving their own internal 1st party teams free to develop more of the classics. Also, recently it has been reported that Nintendo will proceed with an aggressive new plan to support and fund many smaller Japanese development studios, in hopes of unlocking more talent and potentially explosive ideas, like Pokemon. Even if they do not uncover another phenomenon like Pokemon, who\'s to say what unique gems may come out of these quiet and small developers once Nintendo brings them under its wings?
Now, if you look back in the good old days of the SNES (best. system. ever.) and Genesis, you could notice that their 3rd party support was almost equally varied and numerous. Why then did Nintendo "win" that generation? Because their 1st party titles were, historically, more successful than Sega\'s. Now, I love my Phantasy Stars, and Shining Forces, Sonics, and whatnot, but they really could not compare with titles like Mario World, Yoshi\'s Island, Zelda - A Link to the Past, Super Metroid, and others. To say that Nintendo "held" the industry back by not providing more "mature" content is simply foolish. There were other companies out there who were pushing more mature content and they did so quite successfully.
In fact, one of those others companies was Nintendo themselves. Super Metroid, Super Famicom Wars, Mother, Fire Emblem, these are all extremely "non kiddy" (to use the popular but oh so inaccurate terms). You may not be familiar with some of these franchises, mainly due to the fact that most of them were never localized, but they represent a side of Nintendo that has always been around since the beginning, and is still alive and kicking today!
I truly hate the terms "mature" and "kiddy" simply due to the fact that they are so misleading. Zelda has always kinda been in between these two "labels" but most Nintendo bashers would equate the franchise as kiddy on sheer principle alone. While there is no doubt that games like Mario are orientated towards youthful audiences, it is not exclusively geared towards them. Such titles are uniquely designed to appeal to both children and adults. Mario and Zelda are franchises that cater to all audiences, but none exclusively. Children can pick up any Mario and Zelda title and have a ball, and adults can do likewise (and frequently do) and still be amazed and challenged. That is the "Nintendo" element, that you may read, hear, or even scoff about.
As far as innovation goes, just look at the history of the industry. Nintendo was solely responsible for resurrecting the industry after the early 80\'s crash and near demise of gaming. They have pioneered the majority of significant gaming genres we take for granted today, and reinvented many of those same genres more recently, in the third dimension. You could say that in many respects, Nintendo has consistenly pioneered the way we play games in general!
And frankly, as a gamer, I do not see this changing at all. I would not recommend anyone trust Nintendo to fulfill all of their gaming needs, or even most. That would depend on the gamer in question. However, to alienate yourself from all of their titles on sheer misinformation or misguied ideals, that would be sad. Many of you may gripe about the next Celda game in development, but no one (media, majority of gamers, etc) truly doubts that Nintendo will fail to provide what they have consistently given us in the past... simply fun gameplay.
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PLEASE tell me which fields Nintendo has been innovative in.
I would love to hear how the gaming public goes for Nintendo\'s innovation in games,a nd not the same drivel year in and year out.
Game Gear has sucky titles, in YOUR opinion. In MY opinion, the GB has no platofrmer that matches any of the Sonic games. You can\'t bring in GBC games in this argument, since you conclude that GB had sucky games back then, then got better, why couldnt GG do the same?
you want me to blame the developers for porting SNES games? How about that INNOVATIVE Nintendo. Mario Advance = Mario Brothers 2. Mario kart Advance = Mario Kart + new levels, Mario Advance 2 = Mario Brothers 3, etc ad infinatium.
Please don\'t give me that crap about Nintendo having better games back then, either. Obviously you werent old enough back then to realize what business was. Let me detail it for you.
Nintendo owned 90% of the videogame market back then. yes, 90%. It was the first handheld available and Nintendo made SURE that NO third parties made for oppopsing systems. So GB had Tetris, Mega Man, Castlevania, etc. All exclusive. that is ILLEGAL, my friend. They got taken t the supreme court, and it was overturned, but by then, Nintendo had a lock on the handheld market, with it\'s blurry, yellow and green graphics.
Please find every way possible to defend these rebuttals, I need a good laugh.
Eric Jacob
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mejilan, I think you got your lines crossed.
3rd parties were still under Nintendo\'s control in the SNES days. After the Supreme court broke up the exclusitivity contract, whcih was, in essence, impressive even to MS, Nintendo had 3rd parties, AGAIN, sign an illegal contract. This time being, any developer who worked on NES under the old terms must wait for 2 years, I believe, before working on other 3rd parties.
Thankfully, Sega let 3rd parties that were just beginning get some foothold. EA was by no means new, but their sports games were, and they were better on Genny. Sega Sports also competed with them to make both better. Nintendo doesnt do sports worth crap.
Now, if you look back in the good old days of the SNES (best. system. ever.) and Genesis, you could notice that their 3rd party support was almost equally varied and numerous. Why then did Nintendo "win" that generation? Because their 1st party titles were, historically, more successful than Sega\'s. Now, I love my Phantasy Stars, and Shining Forces, Sonics, and whatnot, but they really could not compare with titles like Mario World, Yoshi\'s Island, Zelda - A Link to the Past, Super Metroid, and others. To say that Nintendo "held" the industry back by not providing more "mature" content is simply foolish. There were other companies out there who were pushing more mature content and they did so quite successfully.
Nintendo didn\'t win the generation. It is debatable in each direction. most people agree that Nintendo sold mre systems. But Sega sold more software, some say by miles. I don\'t care how many systems you sell, if you dont sell games, it isnt worth crap. Nintendo\'s games selling better than Sega\'s (I am talking first party here) should be null, since Sega being in the market as a game market on a mass scale was their first time. SMS was a failure, thanks to NES and monopoly, and they only had about 7% of the market back then. for a \'first timer\', Sega sold tons. Also, Sega was making up new genres, and new franchises, as they still are today, while Nintendo dregs up the same old, same old. They INVENTED the strategy RPG, 3D fighting, 3D racing, the adult gaming market (post 84 crash), etc.
Eric Jacob
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About the 3rd parties, I was not speaking of specifics at all. If you look at a lot of the 3rd party software by the end of the 16 bit era, you would see that a lot of the 3rd party software for the SNES and Genesis complimented each other well. I did not mean to imply that exactly the same games came out on both systems. But, there were overlapping titles, of course. Street Fighters, Mortal Kombats, Earthworm Jims, and many many more.
Nintendo didn\'t win the generation. It is debatable in each direction. most people agree that Nintendo sold mre systems. But Sega sold more software, some say by miles. I don\'t care how many systems you sell, if you dont sell games, it isnt worth crap.
Yep, agreed about system sales = nothing without high games sales. And yes, reports were conflicting. But I remember researching this a few months ago. By the end of the 16 bit generation, Nintendo "won out" in the end in the North American and Japanese markets, and Sega\'s Mega Drive did in the less significant European markets.
Nintendo\'s games selling better than Sega\'s (I am talking first party here) should be null, since Sega being in the market as a game market on a mass scale was their first time.
The Genesis was not Sega\'s "first time" in any respect. While I agree that the Sega Master System was a failure (sad, because the games were awesome and the hardware was technically superior to the NES) it had a presence in all major markets.
SMS was a failure, thanks to NES and monopoly, and they only had about 7% of the market back then. for a \'first timer\', Sega sold tons. Also, Sega was making up new genres, and new franchises, as they still are today, while Nintendo dregs up the same old, same old. They INVENTED the strategy RPG, 3D fighting, 3D racing, the adult gaming market (post 84 crash), etc.
SMS was a failure because, quite simply, it could not compete. Sega has never been able to market their products in a consistently successful manner, that has been their greatest failing over the years. The SMS had some true gems, but was overwhelmed by the NES\' games, of which there were many more, and a decent amount of those were better and more innovative. Sega did not invent the Strategy RPG. I do give props to Sega for some truly stunning stuff, but Nintendo, hands down, pioneered more new genre\'s than Sega.
Nintendo\'s Intelligent Systems developed their Fire Emblem games on the Famicom way before Sega and Climax/Camelot pushed out Shining Force. For that matter, Shining Force was Climax/Camelot\'s creature, moreso than Sega\'s. Sega simply published it.
Speaking of Camelot, anyone here excited about this month\'s impending release of their first GBA RPG, Golden Sun?
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*IronFist reads whole thread*
Well, I guess my work here is done. :D
*IronFist leaves thread*
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go ahead and name them, (the innovation in genres and games)
Also, SMS lost ebcause of the lack of third party support, of which there was nothing they could do, as all third parties except Activision and Dynamix were locked into Nintendos ILLEGAL 3rd party contracts.
SMS, by all reason, should have sold loads more, as was shown in Europe and South America, since Nintendo wasnt allowed to pull that crap there, SMS had new games in Europe out in 1995, in Brazil, games are still being produced (but not new), the last new one was late 1997, Street Fighter 2 was on it, Streets of Rge, Virtua Fighter Animation, etc.
Eric Jacob
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Originally posted by AlteredBeast
go ahead and name them, (the innovation in genres and games)
Seriously? You can look up any featured "History of Nintendo" or better yet, "History of the Gaming Industry" around the web and get much better answers than I can give you off the top of my head.
Off the top of my head, these games pioneered their genres, either by defining them in modern gaming, or inventing them altogether:
Donkey Kong - varied gameplay
Super Mario Bros. - platformers
Kid Icarus - non-arcade style action
Metroid - exploration based action
Zelda - first adventure game (or action/rpg, if you prefer the term)
Duck Hunt - first console light gun game
Those are the major ones, but there were more. These however, fundamentally changed the way we played games. These genres and gameplay fundamentals were evolved on the Super Nintendo in grand form, and an admittedly smaller amount of them were also redefined in 3D with the Nintendo 64.
I could go on and on for pages about how the Zelda Ocarina of Time engine completely changed the way we play games in 3D. But honestly, I am too worn out to do so, and I think I would hit a post limit way before finishing. :)
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i think you are a bit confused
everytime you mention innovation, exhange the word nintendo with the word SEGA
they are the ones that pushed the envelope time and time again, nintendo would wait, and then copy thier ideas
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Originally posted by Clyde
i think you are a bit confused
everytime you mention innovation, exhange the word nintendo with the word SEGA
they are the ones that pushed the envelope time and time again, nintendo would wait, and then copy thier ideas
So true :)
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What time is it?
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Originally posted by Clyde
i think you are a bit confused
everytime you mention innovation, exhange the word nintendo with the word SEGA
they are the ones that pushed the envelope time and time again, nintendo would wait, and then copy thier ideas
tHAT Kind of reminds me of sony. Wait that is just about every freakin company I am sad to say:( But sega has always pushed the envelope and have been copied. Without out sega where would great button smashers like doa and Tekken be?? Where would we all be??:eek:
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"Nintendo" and "innovation" don\'t belong in the same sentence unless invonation just got a new entry in the dictionary that says-
innovation (en-no-vah-shun) - making sequels for fags
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Innovation-The indroduction of something new (http://www.webster.com)
Tell me why again Nintendo is not innovative.
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Duck Hunt wasn\'t the first console light gun game, and Donkey Kong is a Rare property, with no innovation IMO.
Super Mario Brothers certainly wasn\'t the first platformer, but it has been copied the most.
Kid Icarus? guh? non-arcade style action, innovative? you didn\'t play games before NES, did you?
Metroid - wasn\'t Castlevania before Metroid?
With Zelda being the first adventure game, you forget about Adventure, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, and probably others.
Now Sega has either innovated or popularized these genres/ideas.
3d shooter - Zaxxon in the early 1980\'s. Set the standard of what a pseudo 3d shooter should be. Panzer Dragoon redefined it. Star Fox was nice, but couldnt compete.
3D Racer - Virtua Racer, nuff said. it even had like 4 camera angles, even GT3 only had 2. :)
3D fighter - Virtua Fighter. Best 3D fighter on the market. innovated the multi-leveled terrain 5 years ago, which Tekken and DOA are both using now. Now innovates eroding effects that affect the play, like the levels of pay did.
Cel shading - i know that Fear Effect, Parappa, even Dragon\'s Lair on Sega CD had cel shaded graphics, among others. But ever since Sega put their talents on it, it has exploded in popularity. Tons of mainstream graphics games are now going cel shaded, which may be good or bad in your mind.
FREE - a new genre I swear you will be seeing more of in the next few years from high end studios. Project Ego is an example of this. A game where everything that is seen, can be touched.
console online play - I am not even talking about Dreamcast here, even though that was first built in online play. Sega Saturn had the netlink which was fully playable over a network, unlike The XBand, which was dial to dial only for games. XBand was on Genesis before SNES, if it makes any difference, also. :)
shall I go on?
first 3D lightgun game - Virtua Cop, complete with moving cameras and more immersive games over previous light gunners like Lethal Enforcers.
First Racing game with moving car - Hang On, before Hang On, the scenery would move aroudn the car, making for less-than-stellar gameplay. Hang On changed all of that, forever.
First Racer with hills - think about it, how fun is it just to drive on straight aways and turns all the time, Out Run changed that. Power Drift made it better, tons better.
Eric Jacob
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I think Altered Beast summed it up pretty well
So there you go Jedimaster
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Thank you, that was to prove what genres Nintendo made, well apparently you covered that section entirely, while leaving out everything else:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by JediMaster
Thank you, that was to prove what genres Nintendo made, well apparently you covered that section entirely, while leaving out everything else:rolleyes:
No, he also pointed out who made the same kind of game BEFORE Nintendo and showed how there wasn\'t any innovation
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Originally posted by Bossieman
What time is it?
4:30. It\'s not late, no, no; it\'s early, early, early.
...
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Originally posted by Bozco
No, he also pointed out who made the same kind of game BEFORE Nintendo and showed how there wasn\'t any innovation
He left out hardware, improvements in the types of games, techniques, ect.
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hardware?
ok...
NES - first 8-bit out in the USA. had a slow processor and an even worse palette to choose from. SMS was faster, had better colors, better accessories (IMO), and looked cooler, also, it didn\'t break like NES did.
Gameboy - 2nd handheld on market. Dot Matrix made for some very nice blurry scrolling, while the screen was just small enough anyway without being backlight to make all other things hilarious to look at.
Super Nintendo - once again, very slow, which made for some slow games. Genesis was twice as fast. SNES had much better graphics than Genesis, which came out 3 years before it, but much worse graphics than Neo-Geo, which doesnt really help, since Neo Geo came out in 90, and cost like 600 dollars.
Game Boy Color - not really a new system, just smaller and color...barely. This became color after Game Gear, Turbo Express, and Lynx were color. Still slow, but less blurry. Still no backlight.
N64 - hard to program for since Nintendo insisted on cart use. Developers had to make use of fog and blur on many games for them to work. sound was bad and the controller was worse. Worst. Controller. Ever. Did NOT invent the analog pad, which is what kids will have you believe.
GameBoy Advance - dark, small, and colorful. whoopee. 2D is slightly better than SNES and 3D is like a gourad shaded Sega CD. Not impressive.
Gamecube - whacky controller, again. 1.5gig mini-disc DVD\'s. whats so good about that? Yay! now Madden franchises cant be saved! but at least Nintendo will make more money! :rolleyes:
what improvements in games have they made? Techniques? What, like making everything more colorful and cartoon looking? Thats frickin awesome!
I am telling you straight up, Nintendo and innovation don\'t belong in the same sentence.
Sega invented the strategy game, Herzog Zwei, another industry first, in terms of genre and internet playability.
Eric Jacob
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Wow... I knew it was useless responding to this thread Ryu... oh well. I\'ll go on for a bit longer...
Oh, AlteredBeast, I don\'t need to "defend those rebuttals" but attack them. Either way, I am not here to amuse you so much as to educate you. :) You keep on bringing up graphics and business as your key arguments, when it is the games that matter most... here we go.
I will respond in general, without using quotes. About all those Sega games you listed, they are not innovations so much as they are improvements over pre-existing genres. I was speaking of the 80\'s generally, about the beginning of the modern gaming era. Yeah, I have some experience in gaming before the crash of the industry, but admittedly, not a lot. The NES was not my first system. The Commodore Vic-20 was. And about Sega in general, admittedly, they did push the envelope in many things, and quite successfully (I am, after all, a Sega fan, especially of the Genesis, when they were at their peak, IMHO.) But while Sega successfully pioneered and even helped to redefine some of gaming in new and exciting ways, Nintendo changed gaming in its entirety. They pretty much affected all aspects of the early gaming era, and even today continue to change the way we play games.
I only have nominal interest in the "business" behind the industry. It is the games that I care about. I don\'t care how or why Nintendo pulled out the best games consistently in the 8 bit era. Be it monopoly or whatever. They had the ingenuity and ability to charm the world with their games. Sega did not, for whatever reason. You say they had a stranglehold over the 3rd parties? So what, I am focusing more on the 1st party efforts. And Sega\'s titles simply could not, and still cannot, compare with Nintendo\'s.
Castlevania vs Metroid. Not too sure they can be compared side-by-side, except for Symphony of the Night and Circle of the Moon of course, but Metroid definitely precluded those. Anywho, Metroid 1 was released in 1986, and Castlevania in 87.
Donkey Kong was never a Rare property. The Donkey Kong figure was an invention of Shigeru Miyamoto, for an arcade game called Donkey Kong (later released on Atari or Coleco [don\'t remember], Commodore, NES, etc.) way before RareWare was even around. The DK property was licensed out to Rare in the 16 bit era for the DK Country series, and remained with them throughout the 64 bit era as well, but not exclusively. Nintendo still has 100% ownership of DK, otherwise they would not be putting him in Super Smash Brothers Melee (you don\'t see any other Rare characters there, hmmmm?)
Zelda redefined the way we all play adventure, action/rpg games. I have actually played Adventure and Temple of Doom, on various Commodore systems. If I remember correctly, Adventure was a text-based game? Please... And ToD (if I am thinking of the right game) was more of a never-ending arcade game. Before Zelda, there simply was nothing else quite like it. Same with Metroid, Kid Icarus, Super Mario Brothers, etc.
Zaxxon was great, as was Panzer Dragoon. But Zaxxon was only quasi-3D, isometric in fact, a 3/4 view. Whether you enjoyed Star Fox or Panzer Dragoon more is moot, because I am not here to argue that my opinion is any "better or worse" than your opinion, only on the facts involved. Either way, Star Fox preceeded Panzer Dragoon, and in fact, Silpheed on the Sega CD preceeded PD as well (although I do not remember who created that game.)
And then you go on about various 3D Sega games, all good points, but not really related to what I was talking about initially. My point was that Nintendo changed the way we played games, from the beginning. Over the past 2 decades, various development houses have also risen to high success, on the heels of Nintendo\'s pioneering. Sega, is very much one of those companies. Debating how "original" a 3D racer is (with or without hills!! *rolls eyes*) is pointless. Games like Pole Racer and Rad Racer came way before that, and even Sega\'s Outrun for that matter.
As far as online gaming goes, it would be difficult to say that it is "innovative" since online gaming existing in various formats before that. And we have yet to see how "successful" it will be, since no one is actually making money off of online gaming. And there is no doubting console online play\'s inferiority over the already established PC variety. XBand may have been available on the Genesis before the SNES, but that did not prevent its failure on either system, and it was neither a Sega or a Nintendo technology.
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you missed my point...entirely.
Dont worry bout it though.
Eric Jacob
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And you have missed mine.
Not worried though... ;)
But, you didn\'t even give me a chance to bring up Nintendo\'s hardware innovations...
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Originally posted by mejilan
And you have missed mine.
Not worried though... ;)
But, you didn\'t even give me a chance to bring up Nintendo\'s hardware innovations...
Would you be speaking of...
- The later top-loading NES, because the original models was quick to die?
- The super-scope?
- The power glove?
- The tiny and very annoying camera buttons on the N64 controller?
- The vaporware CD-addon for the Super-NES, that Nintendo decided they would need, because of the SEGA-CD?
- The 64-DD?
- The VIrtual Boy?
- Nintendo using the cartridge format on the N64?
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AlteredBeast
over the course of this thread, you are my new hero
yer love of sega may rival mine
heres a summary for anyone who wants to avoid the drivel and blind ignorance of alot of this topic
sega = true innovation
nintendo = true copier
*edit*
ROFL! almost forgot to poke fun at nintendo for the virtual boy that was mentioned above. poor nintendo, without the support of millions of small children and thier parents mis-spent money, they would still be a trading card company
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thanks MM, I have found that Nintendo\'s fans seem to be more and more crazy as the days go by.
I brought up that many times over, Sega has innovated or changed something about a genre or hardware device. but he says that it doesn\'t matter, Nintendo has made more, althouh I named many more than he did, and even proved whysome of his points were laughable at best.
you are my hero, you lovable jackass
Eric Jacob
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?
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!
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? referred to "you are my hero, you lovable jackass "
i wasnt being sarcastic
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neither was I, otherwise I would\'ve left out the "lovable" part, :)
Sega fans who know their **** are always cool by me. and you know your ****! People who don\'t like Sega because of their track record or for some reason, their games, are fricking retarded. :)
Eric Jacob
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i agree
sega > everyone else, even sony
:)
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Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
Would you be speaking of...
- The later top-loading NES, because the original models was quick to die?
- The super-scope?
- The power glove?
- The tiny and very annoying camera buttons on the N64 controller?
- The vaporware CD-addon for the Super-NES, that Nintendo decided they would need, because of the SEGA-CD?
- The 64-DD?
- The VIrtual Boy?
- Nintendo using the cartridge format on the N64?
[/B]
Top loading NES was a good idea, just came too late.
Super Scope = awesome.
Power Glove = craptastic.
C Buttons - I had no problems with them, but they were an issue with others, admittedly.
SNES CD became the Playstation, more or less, so I wouldn\'t complain about that at all.
64DD was a good idea with horrible execution. But that technology led to the GCN 64MB SD cards and SD Adaptor. Just as functional, much cheaper and easier to apply.
Virtual Boy *shudder* Another craptastic idea. NoA wanted nothing of it, but NoJ forced them to market it here. Bad mistake.
Cartridge format is definitely obsolete, for the time being, agreed.
You may focus on Nintendo\'s more questionable hardware, but you conveniently avoid mentioning the true innovations.
For example, the D Pad, the Shoulder Triggers, the Analogue Stick, Force Feedback...
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Originally posted by AlteredBeast
I brought up that many times over, Sega has innovated or changed something about a genre or hardware device. but he says that it doesn\'t matter, Nintendo has made more, althouh I named many more than he did, and even proved whysome of his points were laughable at best.
Eric Jacob
Oh my, hardly! I have responded to just about every significant post you have made here.
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Originally posted by mejilan
Top loading NES was a good idea, just came too late.
Super Scope = awesome.
Power Glove = craptastic.
C Buttons - I had no problems with them, but they were an issue with others, admittedly.
SNES CD became the Playstation, more or less, so I wouldn\'t complain about that at all.
64DD was a good idea with horrible execution. But that technology led to the GCN 64MB SD cards and SD Adaptor. Just as functional, much cheaper and easier to apply.
Virtual Boy *shudder* Another craptastic idea. NoA wanted nothing of it, but NoJ forced them to market it here. Bad mistake.
Cartridge format is definitely obsolete, for the time being, agreed.
You may focus on Nintendo\'s more questionable hardware, but you conveniently avoid mentioning the true innovations.
For example, the D Pad, the Shoulder Triggers, the Analogue Stick, Force Feedback...
The top loading NES should have been the first kind out, not the toaster oven, spring, loader.
Super Scope was a light gun with buttons on it, and enlarged times 5.
the C buttons are like the X-Box buttons, too small and too close together, whoever designed the N64 controller should be kicked in the face.
the SNES cd shows how Nintendo simply jumps on the bandwagon, which in this case would have been good, but they decided that partnering with another company = less money, they backed out.
D-Pad - Intellivision had shoulder buttons and a "d-pad" althoguh it was in the shape of a circle. Analog stick was on every major system before NES, basically. Force Feedback is good, but Sony incorporated it into the controller, while N64\'s was an add-on.
Nintendo is NOT innovative, they have thrown around some good ideas here and there, but that is what happens with a monopoly. I am just glad their kingdom is falling in around their heads.
Eric Jacob
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damn, alteredbeast knows his stuff
bravo!
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Nintendo is NOT innovative, they have thrown around some good ideas here and there, but that is what happens with a monopoly. I am just glad their kingdom is falling in around their heads.
Nintendo may or may not be innovative, that\'s debatable, especially with everything in gaming being an evolution of a previous idea, but at least the games are consistently fun (disclaimer: for me, and for the most part).
That is what matters, right? ;]
But yea, Nintendo is not a monopoly. They make the most cash on game software, but they haven\'t been anything close to a monopoly in over ten years.
And if your idea of a "kingdom falling in around their heads" is year after year of massive profit, then I\'m sure Nintendo can\'t wait to crumble.
-Eik
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GRRRRR, eik!
stop making rational sense!
:)
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Hmmmm... Altered can put up a decent argument, but he does not truly know his stuff MM, with all due respect.
First of all, Eik makes a great point. *nods to Eik* Nintendo has never been "falling" they are one of the few companies to pull massive and consistent profits year in and year out.
Yeah, we both agree that the top loading NES was the way to go, I believe it was top loading in Japan, from the beginning, right?
The SuperScope was the best of its kind at that time, that is undeniable. It was fun, sporty, and functional. (And if you have any doubts that it will kick ass in Super Smash Brothers Melee, then you and I will have true issues between us! ;))
The demise of the SNES CD Playstation is a much longer story than that, involving 3 parties actually, not just Nintendo and Sony. You could easily find all of the info out there. Perhaps the greatest reason that the deal fell through was because Sony\'s lawyers were trying to gain certain liberties over the add on that Nintendo was not willing to give them (and rightfully so, any SNES add on should be managed by Nintendo, not the manufacturer.) As for your "jumping onto the bandwagon" argument, the fact that in the end they did not market a flawed CD Add On like Sega did means that for whatever reason, they wound up making the right choice in the end.
True the C Buttons of the N64 were very much like the crappy XBox buttons of today, but at least M$ has no excuse, the N64 was one generation ago. And Miyamoto designed the N64 (and GCN) pads, unfortunately, where as the GCN pad was developed to be versatile and functional, the N64 pad was designed to work perfectly with one game, Super Mario 64. On a minor and unrelated note: I happily, had no issues with the closeness and small size of the buttons, but I do know that it was an issue with many, many others.
The D Pad was a Nintendo innovation. Digital buttons in the shape of a circle do not make a D Pad. The D Pad was obviously an evolution of the more flawed technologies of the earlier systems, but Nintendo was the first one to incorporate a universally comfortable and functional design, allowing easy access to all 8 compass directions without barely a movement of the finger. The D Pad was probably the most significant contribution to gaming controls of the 80s.
Likewise was the N64 Analogue 3D Stick a similarly massive contribution to the 90s. Yes, analogue control was around before that. Your mouse is analogue, and some of those early systems also had forms of analogue control, mainly slippery, greasy, non-centering "thumb" circle thingies. But again, Nintendo was the first one to take that technology, turn it into a pseudo-joystick format that not only was comfortable, but worked for the 3D world the way the D Pad worked for the 2D world. Again, Nintendo changed the way we play games. That\'s innovation, me friends.
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The D Pad was a Nintendo innovation. Digital buttons in the shape of a circle do not make a D Pad. The D Pad was obviously an evolution of the more flawed technologies of the earlier systems, but Nintendo was the first one to incorporate a universally comfortable and functional design, allowing easy access to all 8 compass directions without barely a movement of the finger. The D Pad was probably the most significant contribution to gaming controls of the 80s.
That you are wrong about. I have owned many Intellivision systems, before NES. The NES, and every subsequent DPad I can think of, is 8-directional. The disc pad on the Intellivision controller was 16-directional (and the controller itself could be used either left or right handed, unlike NES). Nintendo not only did not innovate the DPad, they made it less functional. I still believe the INTV pad is the best one ever. And even after 15 years of using modern controllers, I can still easily use the Intellivision control.
And honestly, it doesn\'t matter whether it\'s a disc or a cross shape, it\'s still a digital pad. And Nintendo did not invent it. They didn\'t even IMPROVE on it until the advent of analog sticks over TEN YEARS LATER.
Also, Nintendo did not invent the Light Gun genre either. Light Gun games were among the first, and there were tons out in the 70\'s, before even the 2600. I remember the old Light Rifle game my uncle had from the late 70\'s.
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yeah, what he said.
I knew I was right. circle on the INTV\'s pad made for no callouses or sores. The controller also had more buttons, but made them functional, unlike Atari Jaguar\'s button layout.
Eric Jacob
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...and all this started form me being a bit bored.........:rolleyes: :p
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Great argument Mejilan; but, You can\'t convince people to see when they won\'t open their eyes.
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Mej, you make excellent points (since when don\'t you? ;) ).
Anyways...
Weltall:
Also, Nintendo did not invent the Light Gun genre either. Light Gun games were among the first, and there were tons out in the 70\'s, before even the 2600. I remember the old Light Rifle game my uncle had from the late 70\'s.
Good point, but how many people could you ask about light guns, and them not mention Duck Hunt? I rest my case.
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Originally posted by DoubleJ_86
Good point, but how many people could you ask about light guns, and them not mention Duck Hunt? I rest my case.
Just because the majority is ignorant doesn\'t mean their misinformation is true. Most people don\'t know that Magnavox marketed the first home gaming console years before Atari was even heard of. Just because most people never heard of the Magnavox Oddysey doesn\'t mean it never existed. And just because most people think Nintendo invented the light gun genre doesn\'t make it true. It just means most people are ignorant:)
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Originally posted by mm
damn, alteredbeast knows his stuff
bravo!
LOL!!! What ON EARTH are you babbling about. AlteredBeast Does Not Know Jack Sh!t !!! :rolleyes: Quick Fact, Without Nintendo there would be NO Playstation....
AlteredBeast, you obviously would not know a Fresh Idea if it flew out of your ass, so you most certainly are not one to wax innovating ideas around here. :p
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Originally posted by Weltall
Also, Nintendo did not invent the Light Gun genre either. Light Gun games were among the first, and there were tons out in the 70\'s, before even the 2600. I remember the old Light Rifle game my uncle had from the late 70\'s.
I don\'t know about that. You mentioning it reminded me of a story from David Sheff\'s Game Over. Here\'s the passage I found which seems to indicate that Nintendo did invent light guns...
When (Gumpei) Yokoi saw the Sharp solar-cell battery, he envisioned a unique way to put it to use. He and (Masayuki) Uemura experimented. Large solar cells, about the size of a silver dollar, were being used to collect and convert light into electricity. But a much smaller cell could be used as a sensor to detect light. Yokoi\'s idea was to adapt the technology to a shooting game, using solar cells as targets.
Yokoi and Uemura worked on a light gun that could be produced cheaply enough for the consumer market. The "bullet" would be a thin beam of light. If the beam hit a tiny solar cell, the cell would either produce or cut off a charge, depending on the circuitry. For instance, the electricity to a magnet could be turned off so that a spring-loaded target could be let loose-and a plastic bottle of beer, pieced together as if it were a puzzle, could be made to explode. A lion could roar. A stack of toy barrels could be blown apart.
Packed with light-triggered targets (the lion, the beer bottle, and the like), more than 1 million Nintendo Beam Gun games were sold for between 4,000 and 5,000 yen ($30 or so) in the early 1970s.
From there, Nintendo made light gun shooting galleries out of unused Japanese bowling allies, the first being Laser Clay Range in Kyoto in 1973.
In 1974, Wild Gunman was the first spin-off, playing on a 16-mm movie projector, showing "actual film footage of a \'homicidal maniac\' on a screen at the end of the alley."
-Eik
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Lord Timothy...who the HELL are you?
You think I care about Playstation. If the system wasn\'t ever invented, Saturn would\'ve been more of a success, which would have made Dreamcast more of a success and so on. You think I CARE about Playstation?!?!
Also, I am undoubtedly right on everything I have said. When I post facts and other people say "I think" then I am right, not wrong. I don\'t really care what you think if it isn\'t fact, then you are wrong!
Eric Jacob
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Weltall:
Just because the majority is ignorant doesn\'t mean their misinformation is true. Most people don\'t know that Magnavox marketed the first home gaming console years before Atari was even heard of. Just because most people never heard of the Magnavox Oddysey doesn\'t mean it never existed. And just because most people think Nintendo invented the light gun genre doesn\'t make it true. It just means most people are ignorant
I\'m not talking about who made the light gun first, I\'m talking about light guns in general. The game that made light guns popular (after the early 80\'s crash), was Duck Hunt. There was no other game that was more popular in that era, in terms of a game that actually used the light gun extensively. Nintendo was the one to do it. No one else was able to.
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Originally posted by AlteredBeast
Lord Timothy...who the HELL are you?
You think I care about Playstation. If the system wasn\'t ever invented, Saturn would\'ve been more of a success, which would have made Dreamcast more of a success and so on. You think I CARE about Playstation?!?!
Also, I am undoubtedly right on everything I have said. When I post facts and other people say "I think" then I am right, not wrong. I don\'t really care what you think if it isn\'t fact, then you are wrong!
Eric Jacob
Ummm... I don\'t recall asking if you cared about Playstation. You obviously seem as though You Prefer SEGA over anything else. But your pathetic attempts to debunk Nintendo as anything less than Innovative, is just bleeding silly.
Where does this immense hatred for Nintendo come from.... Did someone beat you over the head with a NES or something?
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Oh, hey Tim, it seems as though it\'s absolutely useless to debate with these individuals (reminds of TXB).
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You think I care about Playstation. If the system wasn\'t ever invented, Saturn would\'ve been more of a success, which would have made Dreamcast more of a success and so on.
Thus the true reason for you hating Sony is shown. :D
Just teasing Beasty. Just teasing.
/ dm /
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DoubleJ - how could ANY other company make an impact on Lght Gun games when Nintendo illegally owns all of the market?!?!?
We are saying that Nintendo doesn\'t innovate, yet you are trying to argue that the point that Nintendo releases products at the right time, making them popular. We don\'t care...at all.
Lord Timothy - You said \'if it wasn\'t for Nintendo than Playstation wouldn\'t exist" so, yes, you brought up PSX. :rolleyes: I love when people say stupid crap like that. Back on BlastCity, a Sega board, whenever a fanboy would come in, some idiots would say something just like tha, only "Did Sonic the Hedgehog rape you or something?!?!?" Find a new way to be a dumbass, ok, that way is getting OLD.
BTW, look to some past posts where I defend Nintendo, thouroughly, I am not fanboy, it\'s called being logical. It is just that THIS time, I am on the other, much more logical side.
If you think Nintendo is sooooo innovative, name the ways they have been. And releasing a genre or peripheral and making it successful does NOT mean they are innovative, it means they are lucky or that they were just using their monopoly muscle.
Good luck.
Eric Jacob
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Ummm... what color is the sky in yer world? ;)
You want me to post some more innovative things from Nintendo??? What, so you can offer your oh so clever negative comments? Sure!... why not :)
More innovative games
Mario Kart often copied, but never duplicated.
Mario Party I never would have imagined how fun a Video/boardgame could be... but they pulled it off.
Hell, Nintendo certainly did not invent 3-D gaming, but they certainly were the first company to make fantastic, fun, and brilliant playing 3-D games.
Here is another thing people fail to notice. Nintendo can make a game for ALL ages!!! Unfortunately, many gamers are so insecure that they don\'t even give games like Mario 64 a try because it looks to "kiddie". I\'m sorry, but that was a fantastic game!
Pikmin This is obviously Nintendo\'s newest innovative game, and like the others, it can be enjoyed by all.
Hardware?
How about small things like 4 controller ports from the get go. That\'s right, Nintendo started that.
How about the Gamecube controller? Not only does it melt in your hands and not in your mouth, the buttons are shapped differently and uniquely. Never again do I have to look down at the controller to be certain I am pressing the proper button.
There ya go Beasty Boy... do your worst... but when you are finished, How about you go ahead and explain to us who you think the Bastion of innovation is. :D
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Originally posted by Lord Timothy
Ummm... what color is the sky in yer world? ;)
You want me to post some more innovative things from Nintendo??? What, so you can offer your oh so clever negative comments? Sure!... why not :)
More innovative games
Mario Kart often copied, but never duplicated.
Mario Party I never would have imagined how fun a Video/boardgame could be... but they pulled it off.
Hell, Nintendo certainly did not invent 3-D gaming, but they certainly were the first company to make fantastic, fun, and brilliant playing 3-D games.
Here is another thing people fail to notice. Nintendo can make a game for ALL ages!!! Unfortunately, many gamers are so insecure that they don\'t even give games like Mario 64 a try because it looks to "kiddie". I\'m sorry, but that was a fantastic game!
Pikmin This is obviously Nintendo\'s newest innovative game, and like the others, it can be enjoyed by all.
Hardware?
How about small things like 4 controller ports from the get go. That\'s right, Nintendo started that.
How about the Gamecube controller? Not only does it melt in your hands and not in your mouth, the buttons are shapped differently and uniquely. Never again do I have to look down at the controller to be certain I am pressing the proper button.
There ya go Beasty Boy... do your worst... but when you are finished, How about you go ahead and explain to us who you think the Bastion of innovation is. :D
Where do I start?
1. they made their Mario characters race...BRAVO!! That isn\'t innovation, that is merely playing old hat with new characters. I don\'t know if I should give you that one, or slap you.
2. a collection of mini-games?
3. opinion. I think they suck at 3D games, go figure.
4. so can Sega, so can EA, so can everyone. They MARKET and MAKE exclusively for kids, they add in a little non-sugar coated sweetness for the people who can stand it past that.
5. whats innovative about Pikmin? You can\'t say something and not give me a reason. Other wise I could say that I hate Nintendo because they rape children.
6. Atari had 4 controller ports back in the 80\'s.
7. your opinion, again. Having oversized buttons,t han small, oddly-placed buttons doesnt sound like having \'the right placement;
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So let\'s see, a bunch of opinions, and some...opinions. Good argument.
Sega is the all time innovator in software and hardware.
software - 3D fighting, 3D racing, strategy genre (copied by Warcraft, Starcraft,etc.), first racing game with moving vehicles, first with differing terrain, 3D glasses (which worked DAMN well might I add), Card game input, built in modem, add-on modem, internet play, etc.
are you still here?
Eric Jacob
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AlteredBeast:
DoubleJ - how could ANY other company make an impact on Lght Gun games when Nintendo illegally owns all of the market?!?!?
Well, you really are stuck to this "legal" crap, aren\'t you? Are you a lawyer?
AlteredBeast:
We are saying that Nintendo doesn\'t innovate, yet you are trying to argue that the point that Nintendo releases products at the right time, making them popular. We don\'t care...at all.
Are you dense? You\'re missing the bloody point! No one was able to release the light gun and be successful -- except for Nintendo! They had to have done something right, no?
Why should I expect you to admit the truth that Nintendo is innovative. Your blind hatred for The N just shows that you are at the level of every othe fanboy of any console. Sure, Sega was innovative too. Even I can admit that. Why can\'t you say the same about Nintendo (when it\'s much more apparent here, than with Sega)?
AlteredBeast:
I love when people say stupid crap like that.
So, you of all people would know all about "saying stupid crap", correct?
AlteredBeast:
BTW, look to some past posts where I defend Nintendo, thouroughly, I am not fanboy, it\'s called being logical. It is just that THIS time, I am on the other, much more logical side.
Anything seems logical to you (so long it does not put down your precious Sega).
AlteredBeast:
If you think Nintendo is sooooo innovative, name the ways they have been. And releasing a genre or peripheral and making it successful does NOT mean they are innovative, it means they are lucky or that they were just using their monopoly muscle.
You call creating an entirely knew genre not innovated... :eek:
Dear, Lord... :eek:
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what entirely new genre would that be?
platform? no.
puzzle? no.
light gun (we already established that they didn\'t)? no.
so on and so forth. You are bringing up null points.
NOBODY CARES THAT NINTENDO WAS SUCCESSFUL AT COPYING SOMEONE ELSE\'S IDEAS!!
being innovative is not always being successful, and vice versa, much like a rectangle is not always a square.
them having an illegal monopoly over EVERY third party made it for other, more innovative and fresh companies, to fail at their consoles. Nintendo only had balls to try a few ew ideas in that genre, since they had money to blow. After Sega took them to court and won, Genesis came out of the gates whooping Nintendo\'s ass. People saw that Sega was changing the way we play. And people saw that Sega gave third party freedom. Mortal Kombat anyone?
Eric Jacob
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Originally posted by AlteredBeast
Sega is the all time innovator in software and hardware.
software - 3D fighting, 3D racing, strategy genre (copied by Warcraft, Starcraft,etc.), first racing game with moving vehicles, first with differing terrain, 3D glasses (which worked DAMN well might I add), Card game input, built in modem, add-on modem, internet play, etc.
Bravo. While I think you\'re being an ass through most of this thread, you certainly drove your point home here.
Of course, to play Devil\'s advocate I could say that making a fighting game into a fighting game with polygons isn\'t very innovative. (That would give you an idea of what you\'ve been putting the Nintendo supporters in this thread through.)
Anyway, I feel that Nintendo is about as innovative as one can be with everything having been done already (I mentioned earlier something like it\'s not so much innovation anymore as it is evolution and progression), but as far as Sega goes, you certainly made your point.
Oh, and I still question the light gun thing. Did you see my earlier post? Though, since I wrote that I learned that EGM might have some contradictory info in its most recent issue. Who knows...
-Eik
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All right, if god ever needed to fill an ocean, he could use the ignorance of mm and AlteredBeast and transform all of it to water. j/k I love you two. But you know I gotsta say something here.
1. they made their Mario characters race...BRAVO!! That isn\'t innovation, that is merely playing old hat with new characters. I don\'t know if I should give you that one, or slap you.
Ah but it all related to one thing every gaming company desires thw most and what Sega seems to be desperate for lately; money.
It\'s the same deal wiht Mario 2 for the NES. In Japan it was called something totally different and had completely different characters. Nintendo just slapped Mario on it for the American release. Smart move in my book. Mario 1 was just a pheonominal game in gereral at that time and everyone wanted more of it. Nintendo gave the people what they want. Even if it wasn\'t a true Mario game, the people still loved it and it sold A LOT of copies. It was an original game might I add. I could go on with that but everyone acknowledges that I think/hope.
Now, just because Nintendo had a cart game with Mario and friends doesn\'t make it not innovative. The concept behind it was totally innovative. The races were awesome, unique, and very challenging(rainbow road, UGH!). and combine all the weapons into the races perfectly make it an innovative game. I now for a fact that mm likes this game. Ha.
2. a collection of mini-games?
Correction-a board game with mini-games. Strategy always came into play. It\'s not just mini-games. A perfect mutiplayer game is what it was. One of the first games to mainly focus on multiplayer.
3. opinion. I think they suck at 3D games, go figure.
The general public has a major difference in opinion than you do my friend. Same with magazines, gaming sites, etc. You\'ll never admit it to yourself but Mario 64 and Zelda:OOT changed the way we play games. There wouldn\'t be a vast amount of quality games if those two blockblusters never came out.
Mario 64 revolutionized platform genre, like to see you argue with that. And Zelda simply wrote the book on how 3D games should be done. Those two games are innovative btw :p Nintendo+innovation working in the same sentence, ya gotta love it.
Right now, I would just like to point out how Sega has failed so much. What\'s the reason behind that? Thye were going strong in the Genesis days. Then they just kind of started to slowly die only to be reborn again as a 3rd party. What\'s the explanation behind that? Other than the fact that they SUCK. j/k Though I would like that question answered.
5. whats innovative about Pikmin? You can\'t say something and not give me a reason. Other wise I could say that I hate Nintendo because they rape children.
Pikmin is innnovative is many ways. Honestly, I don\'t have the mental energy to explain why becasue I thought it was general knowlegde. RTS by a Japanese developer, the super-smooth controls for a RTS(doesn\'t happen too often), the goals of the game, etc. Read a preview at IGNCube. I think this will be the best game from Nintendo in a long time. It\'s the only game I\'m getting this year.
Sega is the all time innovator in software and hardware.
That may be true, but saying Nintendo isn\'t innovative is ridiculous. From DK to Pikmin, there always willing to try new stuff.
Quite frankly, Sega hasen\'t been so innovative lately. All there doing is ports and sequals I find with the exception of Monkey Ball. VF4, JSF, Panzie Dragoon 4(gotta love it), Virtua Striker 4, SA2 and the GBA Sonic done, what have they\'ve done lately to hold their supposed crown of being the most innovative gaming company around? Rien de significance.
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Thanks, Eiksirf. Having the goodside of a Nintendo fan helps :)
I read your post, but I kind of question it. I know that in the 60\'s and 50\'s they had light gun type games, I dont know what made them work, and I still am amazed at Nintendo\'s and Sega\'s light guns, but I know they had them. I think I read somewhere in one of tose cheesy remember this decade thingy. I also used to play some light gun game in the Ozarks that was made in the 60\'s or 70\'s, it was a western and was old, but I can\'t say how old.
Eric Jacob
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good to see you are off of temp ban, Jumpy.
Sega just made an RTS last yea, in Japan, called Hundred Swords, it got rave reviews and I believe it is coming to PS2.
You have some point though, even though I believe Platofrm games have gone downhill since 3D, but if Mario 64 didn\'t come out, I would bet we would still have a 3D Sonic, as NiGHTS came out right after Mario64. Mario64 set what 3D controls shoudl be, more so than what a platform game should be.
Mario 2 is crap. 1 and 3 eclipse it in every way. I can\'t wait til mario Advance 2 comes out!
Sega not being innovative may be because nearly eveything has been done. :)
They are still bringing good, fresh idea to te forefront, though.
Eric Jacob
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Originally posted by Jumpman
[Saying Sega is the most innovative] may be true, but saying Nintendo isn\'t innovative is ridiculous.
You ramble a lot, but this point here makes sense. And, in your own wordy way, you support it somewhat. ;]
Also:
what has [Sega] done lately to hold its supposed crown of being the most innovative gaming company around?
Besides Monkey Ball (which despite the Marble Madness comparisons, hasn\'t really been seen before), the GBA/GCN link with Sonic will be the first for that system...
Not truly innovative (but what is?) if you consider the Kirby demo and the N64\'s Transfer Pak; but then again if you call Mario Kart innovative basically because it\'s fun, then this should fit in your definition somewhere...
-Eik
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Sega just made an RTS last yea, in Japan, called Hundred Swords, it got rave reviews and I believe it is coming to PS2.
Any Japanese RTS is innovative in my book.
You have some point though, even though I believe Platofrm games have gone downhill since 3D, but if Mario 64 didn\'t come out, I would bet we would still have a 3D Sonic, as NiGHTS came out right after Mario64. Mario64 set what 3D controls shoudl be, more so than what a platform game should be.
A 3D Sonic still would of most likely been released, but I can guarantee you it wouldn\'t be like what Sonic Adventure is. It had what I call, "The Castle Concept" in it, along with every other platform game that\'s been released in Mario 64. That\'s why the genre has been so stale lately.
In Mario, you had the castle and in it had every level of the game. Different parts, different levels. It was just so perfect how everything was connected. That\'s why a lot of people still consider Mario 64 to be the best 3d platform game ever. Only Banjo-Kazooie improved on it IMO. SA had it, there\'s no denying it. Everything was connected fluidly, just like M64.
This is how I see-the developers decide how a platform should be, and there all copying a Nintendo game that was relased 5 years ago for a reason. It works, perfectly.
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he could use the ignorance of mm
and what brought this on fella?
becasue i consistantly denounce the "house of nintendo"?
ill be remembering that while i play my GBA on the bus tomorrow to class
or perhaps ill take my gamegear, cause sega was thoughtfull enough to put a BACKLIT screen on thier 1st handheld, not like nintendo
after 3, we still dont have that option
gamecube , huh?
im still shocked they arent using cartridges
:P
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I thought when you said "after 3..." you meant how GameGear\'s batteries completely ran out but you meant after 3 handhelds Nintendo still can\'t put a backlit in there screen. Cleverness at it\'s finest.
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SA had it, and it was the best platformer ever, IMO.
SA2 screwed with it, nixed SOnic from most of the game, which is why it sucked. We need more Sonic, less Sonic friends.
Eric Jacob
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This is how I see-the developers decide how a platform should be, and there all copying a Nintendo game that was relased 5 years ago for a reason. It works, perfectly.
I\'m sure if all systems were designed with one single game in mind, those games would be the best in the world as well. Just don\'t forget that in order for Mario to be great, it took the controller and a system design that could pull it off and the N64 was designed with Miyamoto\'s ideas of Mario 64 in mind. Not trying to bash anyone, just saying that this great step in innovation likely cost Nintendo a lot of money in the long run by sticking with certain things that Miyamoto prefered over the other companies.
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Hmmm, not much left to say here. AB, you seem to have run out of steam. You are reusing your tired Sega 3D games argument, which I responded to over in the first page. Adding polygons to pre-established gameplay, while making very little gameplay changes isn\'t much of an innovation, just evolution.
I am not a techie, so I know not the exact differences between Nintendo\'s DPad and its precursors on older systems. However, when every single major media and publishing gives accredits Nintendo for the DPad, and the fact that everyone other digital gamepad copied that particular format, lends credence to the idea that perhaps Nintendo did develop that particular innovation. *rolls eyes*
Oh, thanks for the support Tim, JJ. :)
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However, when every single major media and publishing gives accredits Nintendo for the DPad, and the fact that everyone other digital gamepad copied that particular format, lends credence to the idea that perhaps Nintendo did develop that particular innovation. *rolls eyes*
Well, just like about light gun games, just because everyone ripped off Nintendo does not mean they invented it themselves. The ignorance of the masses does not change the facts. Nintendo\'s DPad was not only unoriginal, but inferior to prior attempts by Mattel. I don\'t understand where you divine Nintendo\'s innovation in this matter. You confuse "making popular" with "innovation".
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If the bulk of the media (and the public) believe that Atari was the first videogame maker on the market, does it mean it is true?
I don\'t care if some other systems have put a similar d-pad on their controller, some companies actually like to change and develop their products, which is why we saw a circular d-pad on Master System, far superior to the edgy, corner filled pad of Nintendos.
Eric Jacob
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Hell, Nintendo certainly did not invent 3-D gaming, but they certainly were the first company to make fantastic, fun, and brilliant playing 3-D games.
not true, there were many fun and good playing 3d games before n64 was released and many of them where by sega
Here is another thing people fail to notice. Nintendo can make a game for ALL ages!!! Unfortunately, many gamers are so insecure that they don\'t even give games like Mario 64 a try because it looks to "kiddie". I\'m sorry, but that was a fantastic game!
all ages, might be true. However when I see zelda in powerpuff cell shaded land I must say that it isn\'t very attractive for older people. Or what about pokemon, yeah sure that isn\'t aimed purely at kids, its aimed at all ages :rolleyes:
How about the Gamecube controller? Not only does it melt in your hands and not in your mouth, the buttons are shapped differently and uniquely. Never again do I have to look down at the controller to be certain I am pressing the proper button.
its a good dual shock rip off, which isn\'t a bad thing since sony copied and perfected the analog sticks from n64
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bla
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Actually, the absolute best DPad ever, IMHO, was on the 6 button redesign of Sega\'s Genesis controller. The raised, rocking circular pad... nice.
And as far as the rest of the Nintendo innovation debate, I have more than proved my point. You may gripe on some small issues, but done is done. I know it, you know it, the rest of the industry acknowledges and knows it. I\'ll leave off here with that.
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Well, that one gripe is my only gripe:)
So anyway, let\'s talk Wheel of Time. Nynaeve is a total hottie.
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Originally posted by Metal_Gear_Ray
all ages, might be true. However when I see zelda in powerpuff cell shaded land I must say that it isn\'t very attractive for older people. Or what about pokemon, yeah sure that isn\'t aimed purely at kids, its aimed at all ages :rolleyes:
:laughing:
Hello there Mr. Metal Gear Insecurity. I never said ALL of their games were made for young and old alike. I only said that they are able to make such great games time after time.
Dual Shock Controller perfected the analog stick? :laughing:
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Originally posted by Lord Timothy
:laughing:
Hello there Mr. Metal Gear Insecurity. I never said ALL of their games were made for young and old alike. I only said that they are able to make such great games time after time.
Dual Shock Controller perfected the analog stick? :laughing:
Oh brother. So now people who don\'t play Nintendo games are insecure? Almost all N64 Nintendo games were directed towards the younger audience (even Mario 64 was IMO). And Nintendo has said it themselves that this generation the younger audience would continue to be their target audience. I am looking forward to playing quite a few NGC games made by Nintendo, but to say that anyone who doesn\'t like Nintendo games is "insecure" is just stupid (and it\'s getting kind of old, actually. I\'ve heard that all over the internet for years and years now. You need to think of some other way to bash non-Nintendo gamers.)
And I agree with Metal_Gear about the PSX Dual Shock controller. The DS perfected the N64 controller\'s analog stick. The N64 analog stick was trash IMO.
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Originally posted by Weltall
Well, that one gripe is my only gripe:)
So anyway, let\'s talk Wheel of Time. Nynaeve is a total hottie.
Really? I thought that Aviendha was hotter, Elayne and Egwene too! :)
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The Saturn Analog pad kicked more ass than all of the above
:D
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True, the Saturn NiGHTS pad is the best controller and best analog ever invented. In has an inset ball type analog, much superior to ALL other controllers!
Eric Jacob
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Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
The Saturn Analog pad kicked more ass than all of the above
:D
Yeah , That pad rocked ! Actually all of the sega pads were great (yes even the DC one :)) The sega genesis 6 button pad still remains the best pad ever for fighting games