PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: IronFist on January 31, 2002, 10:44:27 PM
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This article is huge, and has a ton of little tidbits of info in it. It is actually a pretty interesting read. I\'ll post my comments about it a little later, but until then, feel free to pick it apart yourselves. ;)
http://www.msnbc.com/news/697375.asp?0na=x229M3m2-
MSNBC.COM SPOKE WITH executives at all three console manufacturers, several game publishers, retailers, and industry insiders, and this is how the new consoles stack up against each other and the established competition:
A RETAILER’S EYE VIEW
By Steven Kent
SPECIAL TO MSNBC.COM
Jan. 31 — This month will mark the three-month anniversary of the launches of Microsoft’s Xbox and Nintendo’s GameCube. Last year’s war of words is over, and now gamers can finally compare the systems, look at their respective libraries, and decide which console they like for themselves. The last three months have also given industry insiders a chance to see how each company and console behaved. How does GameCube stack up against Xbox? How does Microsoft stack up against Nintendo? And how in the world, having entered the market one year after PlayStation 2, can either company hope to compete with Sony?
Both Xbox and GameCube were virtual sellouts through the holidays; but in the eyes of retailers, Xbox clearly holds the momentum.
“I think Xbox has a lead over GameCube right now,” says Ron Luessen, owner of Famcom Games, a small chain of stores in western Washington that rents, buys, and sells video games. “We’ve been selling a lot more GameCubes when we have them, but I think that might be because of price point.”
(MSNBC is a Microsoft - NBC joint venture.)
Luessen, who has been involved with the game industry since the days of the 8-bit Nintendo Entertainment System, takes a very pragmatic stance as he views the market. As the owner of a small chain, he does not have the space or the money to invest in large inventories.
“Right now PlayStation 2 has the [most] momentum because of software,” says Luessen. “Grand Theft Auto III has been very popular. State of Emergency for PlayStation 2 will be the next big thing. A lot of people are looking forward to that game. To the average person who bought Xbox or GameCube, the question is, “Where are the games?”
But at least one of the bigger retailers has a more positive view.
According to Peter Roithmayr, vice president of merchandising for video games at Electronics Boutique, Xbox is off to a very strong start.
“For us, the Xbox launch went smoother than the launch of PlayStation 2,” says Roithmayr. “We had product flowing to us on a regular basis. We can actually restock stores on a scheduled basis.”
Roithmayr has good reason to sound jubilant. Like the manufacturers themselves, retailers make little or no profit selling video game hardware.
The money is made selling software; and in 2001, software sales were good.
“Electronic Boutique’s software-to-hardware sales ratios are very strong,” says Roithmayr. Their Xbox tie ratio, for instance, is 4 to 1. “Actually, in January, it started at 6.2-to-1,” says Roithmayr. “With titles like NBA Inside Drive, which just shipped last week, and Halo… Halo has been strong from the beginning. Remember, though, Electronic Boutique tends to lead the pack on tie ratios.”
But Xbox is not the only console with strong software-to-hardware tie ratios. According to Electronics Boutique’s January sales data, PlayStation 2 software-to-hardware sales ratios are running at an amazing 12-to-1.
When it comes to tie ratio, much of Sony’s success comes from its one-year head start into the market. Consumers could only begin purchasing Xbox and GameCube software last November. By comparison, PlayStation 2 hardware and software had been on the market for more than one year.
“PlayStation 2 is right up there in momentum with Xbox,” says Roithmayr. “Post Christmas, PlayStation 2 sales have actually been a little ahead of Xbox.”
When it comes to Electronics Boutique, GameCube is lagging in third. “We are still being allocated GameCubes,” Roithmayr points out. “We are a much smaller share of Nintendo’s business than we are of Sony’s or Microsoft’s. We still experience out-of-stocks on GameCube as opposed to PS2 or Xbox.”
Continued...
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Hmmmm........looks like ps2 may be getting RE4 after all.
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WHAT THE GAME PUBLISHERS SAY
For the most part, game publishers are happy to see three systems competing. According to Peter Moore, president of Sega of America, having access to multiple platforms helps amortize costs. “After you spend $5 million making a game, you can double your audience by porting it to additional platforms for another $500,000.”
The key to success, according to Moore, is knowing the audiences for each system. “We are spreading ourselves around well as a company. In Xbox’s case, we announced 11 titles, and that roster continues to grow. Like any third-party, we’re trying to find balance without exposing ourselves too greatly on any one platform.”
Like retailers, game publishers noticed the strong launch Xbox had in North America.
“Everybody has been pleasantly surprised by both the quantity and the logistical quality with which Xbox has serviced the marketplace,” says Moore. “Questions we had were can they supply the marketplace week in and week out with consistent supplies. They have exceeded everybody’s expectations. And third-parties are starting to give them more support than they may have prior to the Christmas period. They continue to gain both respect and support from people who may have been on the fence. That does not include us. We never were on the fence.”
At Microsoft, the goal is to cash in on North American success to drive interest in Xbox for the February launch in Japan and the March launch in Europe.
Our strategy has always been built around the belief that the most important key to success on a worldwide basis is a really strong launch in North America,” says John O’Rourke, director of Xbox sales and marketing. “We delivered on that, and the buzz and excitement is flowing over boundaries. People in Japan and Europe are very excited about it. We said 1.5 million was our goal through the holiday season. Instead, we reached it by the end of the year.”
Japan, which generally has the highest software-to-hardware tie ratios, is traditionally the most lucrative market. In recent years, however, the Japanese market has hit a slump. The Japanese economy is slow, and a large portion of the people who make up the conventional gaming demographic are now spending their money on cellular phones instead of games. According to
O’Rourke, Japan still means more than just sales to Microsoft.
“Each region is very important,” says O’Rourke. “You cannot get to the scale you want if you are a one-country wonder. Japan is as important from a pure market perspective as it is the fact that you have a tremendous amount of game developers who do great games for other markets.”
Xbox’s success has touched off new excitement in Japan. A survey given at last year’s Tokyo Game Show revealed that attendees were more curious about Xbox than GameCube or PlayStation 2. And Xbox has a high-profile evangelist in Japan — Tomonobu Itagaki, executive officer of Tecmo’s Team Ninja and lead designer of the Dead or Alive series of fighting games.
While Itagaki has remained somewhat silent about GameCube, he has vociferously attacked PlayStation 2, calling it a “last generation” game console.
Sega of Japan has nine core design groups. Among those nine groups, two groups seem to have adopted systems of choice.
“Amusement Vision has had great success with Super Monkey Ball and they also did Virtua Striker for GameCube,” says Moore. “Mizuguchi [Tetsuya Mizuguchi, president of United Game Artists] is focused on PlayStation 2. We are in a unique position because we have enough talent with our many studios to allow designers to focus on one platform, then discuss porting the games to other platforms later.”
Capcom, one of Japan’s most successful companies, has also got an unofficial evangelist. Shinji Mikami, creator of Resident Evil, Dino Crisis, and Devil May Cry, has become an outspoken supporter of GameCube.
“No one at Capcom has adopted the Xbox cause,” says Capcom Entertainment (of America) president Bill Gardner. “But then, we have not been enamored with the problems of creating games for PlayStation 2.”
Last year, Capcom announced that Mikami’s popular Resident Evil games would only be released for GameCube. That announcement was made a few days before GameCube’s disappointing Japanese launch last September. As an artist, Mikami may like the way his games look on GameCube, but executives at Capcom watch the bottom line.
“If Nintendo cannot get its numbers up, particularly in Japan, we may need to reconsider keeping Resident Evil exclusive to GameCube,” Gardner recently admitted in a recent interview with MSNBC.com.
The good news for both Capcom and Nintendo is that in Japan, GameCube sales have improved.
“As you may recall, we delayed our launch a few weeks [last November],” says outgoing Nintendo executive vice president of sales and marketing, Peter Main. “My hope was to pick up the quantity from 400,000 up to 700,000, which we did. But hidden in that decision was the hope that if there was any softness in the Japanese market, the extra weeks would allow them to divert GameCube production from the Japanese model to the model for our market.”
In an interview with MSNBC.com held two days before his departure from Nintendo, Main admitted that part of the reason Nintendo of America delayed the launch of GameCube was to take advantage of the weak Japanese market.
“Even though their launch was incredibly soft up through October, Mr. Yamauchi [Nintendo Company, Limited (NCL) chairman Hiroshi Yamauchi] made a call to us in October and said that he was going to bet that the release of the games Super Smash Bros. Melee and Pikmin would resuscitate what had been a very, very soft launch. And that, in fact, took place. Between launch in September and early November, they had shipped just about 400,000 units and the sell-through was about 280,000. It exploded in November.”
By the end of the year, NCL shipped just over 1.3 million GameCube consoles in Japan and had a 90 percent sell-through. Nintendo got off to a slow start with GameCube, then improved sales with the release of two big titles. Even so, Nintendo’s selling of 1.3 million consoles in four months does not qualify GameCube as a great success.
But Nintendo knows how to work patiently and thrive in the Japanese market. Microsoft will need more immediate sales to succeed.
“I think Microsoft is quietly confident about Japan,” says Sega of America’s Peter Moore. “They realize that they need to reach out to the Japanese gaming community as well as the publishing community… and the retail community. I think the unexpected surprise of their success in the U.S. has benefited them. Their success in the U.S. has changed people’s perspective over there. Marketing Xbox is going to be a challenge in Japan; but the thing that makes me feel more confident about it is the fact that they [Microsoft’s Xbox team] do not pretend otherwise.”
The way Moore sees it, it is too early to predict the loser of this three-way race, but he concedes that Sony’s head start into the market has placed PlayStation 2 solidly in the lead.
“Who might get knocked out? I don’t know. Sony has a lead that is probably insurmountable,” says Moore. “Sony has a great head start, content that is flowing through, and great support from the publishing community.”
“Nintendo seems to run hot and cold over in Japan. You can point your finger at some of their platforms that have been very successful and others that have struggled. If you look at GameCube right now, it’s doing okay, but nothing like I might have hoped… and any problems GameCube has had in Japan have been without the challenge of Xbox entering the marketplace,” says Moore.
“As an executive in a Japanese company, I hope three consoles can survive; but I am less optimistic for Japan than I am for here,” he added.
Most people questioned seem to agree, however, that whatever happens to GameCube, Nintendo is not about to drop out of the marketplace.
“Nintendo could become a content publisher and just get out of the hardware business, God forbid. One or two companies have done that lately,” says Moore, who presided over Sega of America as Dreamcast was discontinued and Sega left the hardware business. “That would play to their strength. It would be huge.”
“But there is a certain amount of egotistical swagger in Redmond, and I do not see Microsoft or Nintendo giving in easily, even if they do lag behind,” he added.
Continued...
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EDITORS WITH INSIDE VIEWS
Editors for platform-specific gaming magazines get access to upcoming games ahead of the rest of the world. Part mercenary, part fanatic, most of these editors feel enthusiastic about the various platforms they cover.
“Xbox and PlayStation 2 have the same momentum at this point,” says Frank O’Connor, executive editor of the Official Xbox Magazine. “PlayStation 2 has the install base, and their software numbers are larger; but I’m still arguing that the quality [among PlayStation 2 games] is not what it should be.”
“The only one who is trailing in mindshare is Nintendo, and it’s only trailing a little bit. I still think it has time to catch up,” O’Conner added.
But Andy McNamara, editor-in-chief of the non-aligned Game Informer Magazine, says Nintendo is well-positioned already.
“GameCube, when you look at it as a plan, you can actually see Nintendo’s strategy,” says McNamara. “Is the GameCube the best accessory for Game Boy Advance? I can see Nintendo establishing franchises on Game Boy Advance, then moving them to GameCube.”
As to Xbox’s prospects in Japan, McNamara sounds cautious. “You don’t see a lot of Cadillacs around Tokyo. Microsoft needs to establish some Japanese franchises.”
But if Microsoft needs more Japanese franchises to succeed, Nintendo needs to give more options to older players, according to Matt Casamassina, editor-in-chief of IGNCube.
“I would say that GameCube is in third place right now. It depends how you look at it. Considering what Nintendo could have done… Nintendo has a solid brand, they are a major player in the video game industry, and Microsoft came out of nowhere.”
“Nintendo needs to do two things. One, Nintendo must continue to rely on the younger audience and push out those franchises that appeal to the younger gamer. Mario and Zelda are going to be huge, so will Pokemon, when they finally bring it out,” Casamassina said. “But Nintendo has to recognize the older market. I looked at the TRST Data (marketing research published by the NPD Group) for the week after Christmas. It had Max Payne, Grand Theft Auto 3, Max Payne for PlayStation 2, and Agent Under Fire—clearly an adult-targeted lineup. Nintendo still fails to recognize that, and it baffles me.”
Like software publishers and retailers, most editors seem to agree that in sheer console placements, Sony’s lead may be insurmountable.
“I do not think Microsoft or Nintendo can catch up to Sony,” said Casamassina. “Sony seems to do no wrong, even when it is quite obviously very wrong. It has hardware that is widely accepted as inferior from a development standpoint if not from a power standpoint, and still people are snapping it up and going crazy about it.”
“This could be a big year for Nintendo if it plays its cards right. The problem is that neither Microsoft nor Nintendo have anything big planned for the first half of 2002,” he added.
AND FROM THE MANUFACTURERS...
“I guess we feel that we stand alone,” says Sony Computer Entertainment America senior vice president Jack Tretton, when asked about the closest competition. “I don’t know that we have anybody that I feel will ever be a neck-and-neck competitor with us. The competitor that goes for the closest demographic is Microsoft.”
“Everybody says that this is a marathon and not a sprint and that really is true. We left the starting line a year before they did. If you call it a five-year race, then we were 20 percent into the race before they got out of the blocks.”
If executives at Sony Computer Entertainment America sound smug, they have a right to be. Even with all of the excitement over the launches of Xbox and GameCube last November, PlayStation 2 consistently outsold both systems over the holiday season.
“I think Nintendo and Microsoft have to close the gap at some point, but the reality is that we’re pulling farther ahead. You only get to be new once. You only get to attract those hardcore new consumers once. They’ve had that, and we’ve widened the gap,” Tretton said. “In terms of quantifying that, during the period between Nov. 15 when they launched and Dec. 31, we sold 2.8 million PlayStation 2s. Those were sold through to consumers, not shipped. Compare that to GameCube or Xbox, and you will see that we had a commanding lead before they shipped, and we widened that lead since they shipped.”
Sony may have sold more hardware than Nintendo or Microsoft, but it also had more hardware to sell. More than 90 percent of the Xbox and GameCube inventory that was shipped was sold, making the consoles virtual sellouts. PlayStation 2 consoles, on the other hand, remained readily available.
“Right now retailers are not happy with us or Microsoft,” Nintendo’s Peter Main told MSNBC.com. “They would like more inventory. Anywhere from a low of 20 to a high of 35 percent of stores throughout the country are out-of-stock. The shipments just go in and out. Every week we are selling 15,000 to 18,000 pieces, which is reflecting basically what we shipped. That’s a little calamitous.”
There is little question that Nintendo is lagging behind Microsoft in the U.S. market by most measures. With 1.5 million Xboxes sold, Microsoft has sold 200,000 more consoles than Nintendo. According to the TRST Data, GameCube has a 2.7-to-1 software-to-hardware tie ratio, compared to the 3.3-to-1 ratio for Xbox. Moreover, Microsoft currently has over 40 games available for Xbox, while the GameCube library is only up to 23 titles.
From a gamer’s perspective, the Xbox library has more peaks and valleys. Many gamers see Halo, Dead or Alive 3, and Max Payne as better than any games on GameCube; but Xbox is also the home of Shrek, Azurik, and Kabuki Warriors.
“If you hold up TRST to the light of day,” said Main, “you would say that we are clearly behind Microsoft by a couple of hundred thousand units. We’ll see how they do in Japan in the next month. From a corporate standpoint, we’re thinking about it globally, and we’ve shipped 2.6 million. We rolled all the dice last year in both re-launching Game Boy and launching GameCube in two different markets.”
For Nintendo to succeed, it will need to rely on its established game properties, and one piece of news that will come as a relief to many gamers is that Nintendo is re-thinking the cel-shaded version of The Legend of Zelda that was unveiled last August at its Spaceworld trade show. “You mean that contentious look? What Miyamoto [Shigeru Miyamoto, Nintendo’s top game designer] ends up with will truly reflect all of the words he has heard, but the sentiments that he holds true to make sure that Zelda continues to titillate all the fans that it has attracted over the years,” said Main.
In the meantime, attitudes around Microsoft are ecstatic. The feeling seems to be that the launch went better than expected and the market for Xbox is wider than hoped for.
“We found through post-launch research that we have younger gamers who are very excited about Xbox,” says O’Rourke. “Our stated audience was 16- to 26-year-olds — what most people call ‘hardcore gamers’ but we call ‘passion players.’ We extended beyond that core audience. Not quite half of the people who bought Xbox during the holidays were younger than our target market.”
“The sheer awareness of Xbox has exceeded our goals. I cannot share the specific number publicly, but the amount of awareness that we have for Xbox is significantly higher than it is for GameCube. Even at an unaided level, nine out of ten people who are gamers are aware of Xbox.”
The End.
Note to Mods -- get rid of that character limit.
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interesting read...but it doesnt take a scientist (or msnbc for that matter) to figure out who is winning...
who is selling the most consoles
who has sold the most consoles
who is getting the most games
who has the most developers
who is selling the most software
who is the most trusted
who has the biggest library etc. etc.
Xbox and PS2 with the same momentum?? hardly...yeesh, it never ceases to amaze me just how bigga fanboys the eidtors and such of Xbox magazines/websites and such are...much bigger than nintendo, even bigger than PS2...always trying to get their point across and always being more biased.. IMO
pfft, that whole article is practically one big advertisement for XBox.. and it spends more time comparing XBox and GameCube due to the fact that comparing it to PS2 would be a waste of time as any un-biased writer/reviewer/gamer can see, it is far from in the same league due to its recent release..
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Originally posted by rastalant
Hmmmm........looks like ps2 may be getting RE4 after all.
yeah, way to be constructive...twit :rolleyes:
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I think it\'s quite amazing that Xbox is being touted as having the same "momentum" as PS2 (whatever context you put this in). PS2 is the sequel to a widely successful console, had huge developer support from the get go because of its\' previous generation, and a year start. Xbox is the brand new console to the market and it\'s already being recognized as a solid contender...that is impressive IMO.
Japan will be the deciding factor though...*crosses fingers*
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perhaps it was the $9328521398 hype machine in advertising, no?
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Originally posted by Ginko
I think it\'s quite amazing that Xbox is being touted as having the same "momentum" as PS2 (whatever context you put this in). PS2 is the sequel to a widely successful console, had huge developer support from the get go because of its\' previous generation, and a year start. Xbox is the brand new console to the market and it\'s already being recognized as a solid contender...that is impressive IMO.
i disagree
the Xbox does not have the same momentum as the PS2, that is obvious and if you think otherwise you are obviously jaded/bias/il-iunformed
comparing them at launch you would say XBox is doing well and would have had the same momentum, but saying it currently has the same momentum of the PS2 is ludicrous.. especially with PS2 selling worldwide and Xbox still only in US..
you must know what i mean Ginko?
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I see what you mean...but I think it was meant to say Xbox is off to a hardy start and is moving in somewhat the same pace...
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key word is "somewhat"
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Originally posted by Ginko
I see what you mean...but I think it was meant to say Xbox is off to a hardy start and is moving in somewhat the same pace...
heheh, but it ISNT! thats the thing... PS2 right now is some sort of unstoppable thing... (a juggernaut if you will) and Xbox doesnt have the software sales, nor does it have the hardware sales, or the user base and the librarry of games to be moving in even a relatively close pace to the pace PS2 is currently..
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Originally posted by mm
key word is "somewhat"
That\'s why it\'s in italics...
heheh, but it ISNT! thats the thing... PS2 right now is some sort of unstoppable thing... (a juggernaut if you will) and Xbox doesnt have the software sales, nor does it have the hardware sales, or the user base and the librarry of games to be moving in even a relatively close pace to the pace PS2 is currently..
Right, that it is currently in...you have to bring to mind that PS2 is almost 2 years old hence it has a library of games, huge success and a recogized name from a previous generation.
Xbox is not even 3 months old...hasn\'t had the time given to build a big user base or library of games and is brand new to the console arena...
Currently both systems are selling very well in relative terms...
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well d\'uh :) which is why PS2 is so far ahead
it\'d be interesting to see who would have sold more had they both been launched at the same time with machines of the same approximate power ;) hmm, close race
i was just trying to generate some convo Ginko, you dun\' good boy :)
:fro: toot on
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
well d\'uh :) which is why PS2 is so far ahead
it\'d be interesting to see who would have sold more had they both been launched at the same time with machines of the same approximate power ;) hmm, close race
i was just trying to generate some convo Ginko, you dun\' good boy :)
:fro: toot on
that would be interesting, my bets on PS2;)
( I will not get into why, the reasons are obvious. NO flames please)
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( I will not get into why, the reasons are obvious. NO flames please)
YOU STUPID ****ING IDIOT!!! HOW COULD YOU SAY SOMETHING SO ****ING STUPID!! YOU ****ING RETARD!! :p
:fro: toot on
yes...yes im bored
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
yeah, way to be constructive...twit :rolleyes:
Yeah.....whatever....i wasn\'t even talking to you.....moron.
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Hmmmm. . . .
Article by MSNBC. . . .
Hmmmm. . . .
MS. . . .
Hmmmm. . . .
Wonder why this article would embellish the XBox. . .
Hmmmm. . . . .
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Originally posted by rastalant
Yeah.....whatever....i wasn\'t even talking to you.....moron.
well, i was pretty much joking, but if you wanna make something of it...
first of all, you started a whole other thread completely about it, then you come in here (chances are) you havent read over the article in full, notice one small mention of the RE series and decide to swirve off the intended topic and try and discuss something you just made an entire post about!...moron :p
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
well, i was pretty much joking, but if you wanna make something of it...
first of all, you started a whole other thread completely about it, then you come in here (chances are) you havent read over the article in full, notice one small mention of the RE series and decide to swirve off the intended topic and try and discuss something you just made an entire post about!...moron :p
Hmmmmm........i already read the whole article but i just thought that part there was the most important.
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Originally posted by rastalant
Hmmmmm........i already read the whole article but i just thought that part there was the most important.
And all you care about is your pathetic Xbox? Come on, Oh if Xbox is in 2nd, thats where its going to stay. Nintendo will crumble from this No. Whats most important is........
People who have a particular Console preference will get the games that they wish to play. Who cares about the war, or how many consoles sold. Its all about the games IMO. Does anyone really really care about how many units sold over a kick ass game coming out to each system? So whos winning the war. SONY of course. Who has the better games SONY of course. I know this may be making me sound like a bias Sony fanboy, but, I own an Xbox, so that renders the fanboy part obselete. I\'m just saying, from the facts I read over the past weeks over game sales. Sony is brining it in. Not MS. Oh, and don\'t say DOA3 is a AAA game, even though the reiveiwers like it, because DOA3 isn\'t an AAA game, its just DOA 2 pretty. Wheres Xbox\'s other AAA game besides Halo? Hmm, I mean, Come on, PS2 has alot more AAA games then Xbox will its first year out.
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Originally posted by Terry Bogard
And all you care about is your pathetic Xbox? Come on, Oh if Xbox is in 2nd, thats where its going to stay. Nintendo will crumble from this No. Whats most important is........
People who have a particular Console preference will get the games that they wish to play. Who cares about the war, or how many consoles sold. Its all about the games IMO. Does anyone really really care about how many units sold over a kick ass game coming out to each system? So whos winning the war. SONY of course. Who has the better games SONY of course. I know this may be making me sound like a bias Sony fanboy, but, I own an Xbox, so that renders the fanboy part obselete. I\'m just saying, from the facts I read over the past weeks over game sales. Sony is brining it in. Not MS. Oh, and don\'t say DOA3 is a AAA game, even though the reiveiwers like it, because DOA3 isn\'t an AAA game, its just DOA 2 pretty. Wheres Xbox\'s other AAA game besides Halo? Hmm, I mean, Come on, PS2 has alot more AAA games then Xbox will its first year out.
I like xbox and ps2 so it doesn\'t make a difference to me. I like all the xbox games that i own and I\'m enjoying the consoles. Sony may be ruling the charts but xbox is doing pretty good for its first try in the market. Xbox is pathetic? Nah............i just don\'t think you like them thats all. Xbox rules..........
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Originally posted by Terry Bogard
People who have a particular Console preference will get the games that they wish to play. Who cares about the war, or how many consoles sold. Its all about the games IMO. Does anyone really really care about how many units sold over a kick ass game coming out to each system? So whos winning the war. SONY of course.
You were doing so well up until here...
Who has the better games SONY of course.
A good game is all in opinion, so this can\'t be argued...
Sony is brining it in. Not MS.
I heard MS is doing pretty well for a brand new cosole entry...
Oh, and don\'t say DOA3 is a AAA game, even though the reiveiwers like it, because DOA3 isn\'t an AAA game, its just DOA 2 pretty.
What makes an AAA game? Graphics? Gameplay? A combination of both? Reviews (which are just published opinons)?
What would you say are the PS2 AAA games? Wouldn\'t you agree in saying that it comes down to preference and opinion and you have no arguement here.
Wheres Xbox\'s other AAA game besides Halo? Hmm, I mean, Come on, PS2 has alot more AAA games then Xbox will its first year out.
Would you care to name the "AAA" titles that came out within PS2\'s first 11 weeks? Please do...
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At this time in the PS2 dev cylcle, the xbox has better games and is selling approximately the same.
DOA3 is an AAA game. GT3 is GT pretty woth some enhancements. But noone doubts that it\'s an AAA game.
Of course Sony is winning, but I don\'t think anyone expected MS to do this well. So well that we can actually have this argument. So well that it has many people around here scared to death that they might have made the wrong choice (read: fanboys).
You look at the arcs of the two consoles at the 3 month mark. Which console is preforming/preformed better? I\'d say xbox hands down. It is foolish to think that xbox will ever catch up to PS2\'s sales to date, but I don\'t think that is what is significant. If the xbox can outsell month to month (which it\'s not by the way) or equal the PS2 in sales, then that is a victory for MS.
And that scenario is not out of the realm of possibility. If things go right with MS\'s online plans and if thier upcoming games are as good as they look, we could see MS make huge sales.
Who would have thought xbox would outsell GC? Not me. I\'m willing to bet that I could be surprised again.
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Oh, and don\'t say DOA3 is a AAA game, even though the reiveiwers like it, because DOA3 isn\'t an AAA game, its just DOA 2 pretty.
Lol!!!!!! Where did you get that from? Sure you make not like doa3 but the reviewer and I consider it a triple A title. Halo another triple A title sure you may have something against the xbox but I\'m enjoying so that all that matter to me. Uhhhhhh...........whats wrong with you? OF course ps2 is going to have more triple A titles the system been out for almost 2 years in japan!!!!!
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duh.. PS2 is currently winning, but that doesn\'t mean Xbox isn\'t catching up.. Cause they are/will.
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well xbox could catch up but not if it is ill-fated in japan
and from the looks of things its not gonna happen - comments from people and mags in japan have not been very reassuring
xbox will do ok in the states but in other places i begin to wonder
in any sense what makes a triple A game - that would be the just of the public opinion - that means what most people think not just one person because opinions vary that way
and there were a few AAA for PS2 at launch as were there for Xbox and GC - its no big deal - good games take time and launchs are usually rushed
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IronFist that was a great article! It\'s from MSnbc so I knew it would lean to Xbox more but there are good points on hardware, software, marketing etc of the consoles. MS knew before he went in this video gaming business what it take to become success. He took all the good elements of the pass and plan it right to the point that it will work long term.
1) Have the supplies ready.
2) Breaking games on any console.
3) Big promotions to get the word out of the Xbox. Taco Bell, Doritos. (these are eatable items that will be lying around the place and can still self advertise the Xbox.)
4) Have a built in HardDrive for future use.
5) Online ready. And no BS bring it to the table!
6) World wide marketing.
7) Exclusive games. (Xbox only)
8) Huge developers list 250+ and ongoing!
9) Xbox ease programmable.
There must be more but I have to look at other forums now. But I can see that if MS keep have a great marketing, supplies and breaking games no time it will be in the number 1 spot. Like Watchdog said,
"You look at the arcs of the two consoles at the 3 month mark. Which console is preforming/preformed better? I\'d say xbox hands down"[/b]
That what I look at too. Pound for pound.
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what they fail to mention, is that sony has already won the "console war"
the xbox and GC can vie for 2nd place, but thats about it
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The Good:
RE may head to PS2. Good not because I want it but to stop the sobbing of the PS2 fans that were looking forward to it.
Nintendo rethinking Zelda. Safe to say, no ones gonna miss that retro version of Link. Later you little freak!
The Bad:
Shameless MS slanted self promotion. Omission of official PS magazine editor being a glaring example. I suppose they might of had an interview but in answer to the first question the editor couldn\'t stop laughing. Who knows?
The Ugly: Tecmo mouthpiece fires another shot at PS2. Last generation??? Even a DC fan should be insulted by that remark. Sure isn\'t making any new friends talking like that. I can\'t wait to see that be-atch come groveling back to Sony.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
To the Xmen clowns;
I find it very ironic you\'re on a PS2 forum talking about PS2 fanboys being sOooooo worried they made the right choice. Now, why are you here again? Some of us have gotten wind of the box and aren\'t into your tuna. Isn\'t that okay? Talk trash in our house and you\'ve got to expect some feedback. Tha\'s all there is to it.
We\'ve matched lists of AAA launch titles over and over. At best an honest xbox lover gets a draw. My own list piles on all the PSone 3A titles. I know you can\'t afford to acknowledge their power but that awesome library helped to sell a major number of PS2s. Get over it.
And please stop trying to feed us the MS line xbox did better than anyone expected. I heard from Billy boys own mouth a week before launch they expected xbox would be a sold out for the next several months. Didn\'t quite happen, did it?
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
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Originally posted by Terry Bogard
And all you care about is your pathetic Xbox? Come on, Oh if Xbox is in 2nd, thats where its going to stay. Nintendo will crumble from this No. Whats most important is........
People who have a particular Console preference will get the games that they wish to play. Who cares about the war, or how many consoles sold. Its all about the games IMO. Does anyone really really care about how many units sold over a kick ass game coming out to each system? So whos winning the war. SONY of course. Who has the better games SONY of course. I know this may be making me sound like a bias Sony fanboy, but, I own an Xbox, so that renders the fanboy part obselete. I\'m just saying, from the facts I read over the past weeks over game sales. Sony is brining it in. Not MS. Oh, and don\'t say DOA3 is a AAA game, even though the reiveiwers like it, because DOA3 isn\'t an AAA game, its just DOA 2 pretty. Wheres Xbox\'s other AAA game besides Halo? Hmm, I mean, Come on, PS2 has alot more AAA games then Xbox will its first year out.
How many AAA games did PS2 have when it was released ? None at all...... heh, I didnt even consider to buy PS2 untill GT3 came out. Xbox are doing great, they have at least one AAA game at release. Problem with Xbox is that it will never succeed in Europe or Japan. Gamecube may have same problem in Europe, if they threat us the same way they did when N64 was the big thing.
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Originally posted by Heretic
The Bad:
Shameless MS slanted self promotion.
yah, this is even worse then when Sony told retailers not to advertise Xbox or GC, otherwise they would cut supplies short...
please...it\'s standard practice and Sony is just as guilty.
To the Xmen clowns;
I find it very ironic you\'re on a PS2 forum talking about PS2 fanboys being sOooooo worried they made the right choice. Now, why are you here again? Some of us have gotten wind of the box and aren\'t into your tuna. Isn\'t that okay? Talk trash in our house and you\'ve got to expect some feedback. Tha\'s all there is to it.
Who is this aimed at in particular? IMO, this thread was very orderly...what\'s the problem? Who talked trash? Who\'s forcing their opinion of Xbox on you?
I\'m here to talk about games and this just happens to be one of the most well conducted forums on the net...
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I think some of you are totally missing the point. Of course the PS2 is going to win this generation. It has too much momentum, too many good games, and too large a userbase - which is rapidly growing by the day.
Microsoft put the Xbox into this market knowing full well that it wouldn\'t win. The Xbox isn\'t competing for the #1 spot.. it\'s competing for mindshare. They want their product out and in the public eye so that when the next generation comes around they have a real shot at being #1. They\'re still putting their all into the Xbox (and it\'s showing) because a stumble out of the gate dosen\'t make for a very good impression. If Sony had started making consoles with the PS2.. then I have a feeling Sega would still be selling massive amounts of Dreamcasts, Nintnedo would be the console to beat, and this forum wouldn\'t even exist. Sony only overcame their initial problems because of the wonderful job they did with the PSX and the hype which followed it.
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MSNBC--MicroSoft NBC...!!!
Anyway, they can talk all they want, SONY has already win the war but X-Box could come a good second if they handle things well. Nintendo?? They can still survive with Pokemon in some jungle guerilla warfare.
As for the argument of triple AAA titles, well, IMO, there\'s none for the X-Box either coz I\'m not interested in Halo,Max payne(already have PC version and it sits on the shelf) and the bouncy breast with extra female hormone injection(u know what I\'m talking about).
Anyway, I don\'t see how X-Box will survive the japanese market with all their PC-ish games...this is one bet I\'m willing to make.
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Originally posted by SonyFan
Microsoft put the Xbox into this market knowing full well that it wouldn\'t win. The Xbox isn\'t competing for the #1 spot.. it\'s competing for mindshare. They want their product out and in the public eye so that when the next generation comes around they have a real shot at being #1. They\'re still putting their all into the Xbox (and it\'s showing) because a stumble out of the gate dosen\'t make for a very good impression. If Sony had started making consoles with the PS2.. then I have a feeling Sega would still be selling massive amounts of Dreamcasts, Nintnedo would be the console to beat, and this forum wouldn\'t even exist. Sony only overcame their initial problems because of the wonderful job they did with the PSX and the hype which followed it.
Id XBox doesnt win this generation XBox will not ever win (and before you say anything...yes i can see into the future) Sony made a lot of screw ups this time round, probably more than any other company...running off the success of the most successful console ever (depsite the fact that the PSX only kicked as much ass as it did due to piracy) these problems have hardly hampered the PS2 in its attempt at the majority share in the business...
i really do think that Sony are going to come out swinging next generation (and obviously so will Microsoft)... and i believe the PS2 to be merely a training lesson for developers to get used to such issues as the multiple proccessors on multiple tasks and the texture streaming... PS2 is already incredibly popular, if developers want their games to be seen on it, they will need to learn...once they have learned it will all be good for the PS3 (or perhaps the PlayStationAdvance)
Can you imagine the marketing if both Sony and Microsoft launch their consoles at the same time next time round.. :eek:
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Originally posted by Heretic
Nintendo rethinking Zelda. Safe to say, no ones gonna miss that retro version of Link. Later you little freak!
Yeah, after seeing it in motion I was satisfied with the new look, but if they bring back that hyper-detailed, realistic look from a year ago, I will be much happier.
Of course its probably a double-edged sword since that would mean ----- delays.
And such is the life of a Nintendo fan. ;]
-Eik
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Originally posted by Agnino
How many AAA games did PS2 have when it was released ? None at all...... heh, I didnt even consider to buy PS2 untill GT3 came out. Xbox are doing great, they have at least one AAA game at release. Problem with Xbox is that it will never succeed in Europe or Japan. Gamecube may have same problem in Europe, if they threat us the same way they did when N64 was the big thing.
Let\'s see...SSX was considered a triple A game. Armored Core 2 also, if you like the depth of the mech\'s modifications and strategic gameplay. Oh sure, some of you may say "no way! Xbox has Halo and...and....and....uh."
Personally, I played Dynasty Warriors 2 more than any game! Never played a game like that before (until DW3)!
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Armoured Core 2 was not..
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
Armoured Core 2 was not..
Thats a nice opinion you got there
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no its not
he said SSX and Armoured Core 2 were considered AAA games...this isnt going by our personal opinions, its going by reviewers and the general consensus of the population... SSX may be able to get away with being a AAA game...Armoured Core 2 is not..
try thinking over what has been said before replying :p
:fro: toot on
of course, he does mention its a AAA game if your into that sort of thing, but thats irrelevant, as the context of the conversation was towards what games are considered to be AAA by the fans/reviewers...not getting into semantics about it, you cant single out specific groups of gamers, he was just searching for another example to back up his claims...
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If SSX was, Amped is too. Neither are truthfully.
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The version of Resident Evil 4 that Capcom has planned for GCN isn\'t coming to PS2. Not exactly, anyway.
It would have to be toned down significantly. Remember, Mikami and the RE4 team hit a technical wall on the PS2.
They couldn\'t do what they wanted with RE4, so they moved it to GCN instead. Just clearing that one up..
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Amped never had the same build up as SSX...and its reviews scores were not as high and was never truely considered AAA status material, SSX was, your just using your opinion and your XBox bias on this one Watchdog
Blade...Resident Evil 4 was being made for the PS2 sbut at one point aloing the line the developers realized that they had gone too far off track and decided to make two seperate games (the other being Devil May Cry)
i hardly feel that the only reason they went to GameCube was for the easier technical qualities, especially seeing as they now doubt whether they will stay on GC due to lack of sales, Nintendo wanted em..
Nintendo have a ctonract with Capcom for 6 Resident Evil Games, they are getting Res Evil 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, Code Veronica..
thats two \'exclusive\' titles and 4 rehashes (and we all know Capcoms previous attempts at remaining exclusive)
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It\'s not bias, it\'s truth. SSX is not that good. You can\'t compare SSX to Halo or Mario 64, they aren\'t in the same league. SSX was well recieved because it was the only good game in the lineup.
No one really cared about Tricky when it was released, but Mario Sunshine and Halo 2 will definately get attention.
You are in a dream world if you think Tricky is AAA.
SSX doesn\'t stand up today. True AAA titles do.
No one ever said, I gotta play SSX, I\'m going to buy a PS2.
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your XBox bias on this one Watchdog
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Hey, Kettle, this is the Pot, you\'re black. A comment like that coming from you means absolutely nothing.
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Bob: That\'s true (about the DMC/RE4 thing) but it\'s been said that the PS2\'s comparatively limited technical abilities made the switch all the easier for Capcom.
Bear in mind that it\'s the executives/marketers at Capcom, not the developers that make the exclusivity call.
As for "the GCN is a failure so the game has to be ported".. the system is doing great in Japan. Once Nintendo and 3rd-parties got more than 3 freakin\' games on the street, sales started to pick up. ;)
With the introduction of Doshin the Giant and RE1.. and eventually Mario Sunshine and Zelda.. not to mention plenty of other titles.. I think the sales will skyrocket in comparison to today\'s. The system isn\'t doing badly in the US either.. if Microsoft and Nintendo aren\'t lying about sales numbers, MS has a lead.. but they\'ve also shipped more units. And have more games on the street, plus everybody has it in their heads that Xbox technologically stands head and shoulders above the GameCube. With all of this in mind, I believe Nintendo is doing fine. Not super, but things will pick up to an extent.
They just have to rally some more high-profile 3rd-party support from stubborn developers like Tecmo and Konami.. and start shipping more \'Cubes to the US. The announcement that Enix is working on GCN software certainly gives it a boost in RPG fans\' eyes, especially in the Japanese market.
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Bah! Triple A....I liked SSX. AC2 needed analog control. Japanese gamers loved it anway.
But considering that I played FF9 on my PS2....than I gotta say that FF9 was a AAA game at launch time! :D
Heh...
But I played Dynasty Warriors 2 just as much as FF9. You try killing 2000 baddies in one hour with only a machete!!!
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to Watchdog
good thing i never claimed SSX to be a AAA game, i merely stated that it did get somewhat of a build up, whether or not that is due to the fact its the only good game in the line up is irrelevant (and debatable)
i guarantee you people still play SSX and people still love it, probably about as much as Halo will be played and loved about a year from now too (ok, mebbe not that much :p)
Tricky sucked and was just a re-hash and was practically the same as the original...therefore, nobody cared about it, as you said
and SSX still is a good game
once again, i never said SSX was a AAA game but many other do including some reviewers (not enough to still be classified as a AAA game) where as you are going by your opinion "It\'s not bias, it\'s truth. SSX is not that good. " i dont care if its a launch game or not, to get review scores as high as it did it had to retain some gameplay elements that made it slightly popular...
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To Blade..
As for "the GCN is a failure so the game has to be ported".. the system is doing great in Japan. Once Nintendo and 3rd-parties got more than 3 freakin\' games on the street, sales started to pick up. ;)
how the hell can you say the NGC sales have picked up?? PS2 is still outselling it by 4 times as much in Japan, and the sales of the GC are getting lower and lower each week
With the introduction of Doshin the Giant and RE1.. and eventually Mario Sunshine and Zelda.. not to mention plenty of other titles.. I think the sales will skyrocket in comparison to today\'s. The system isn\'t doing badly in the US either.. if Microsoft and Nintendo aren\'t lying about sales numbers, MS has a lead.. but they\'ve also shipped more units. And have more games on the street, plus everybody has it in their heads that Xbox technologically stands head and shoulders above the GameCube. With all of this in mind, I believe Nintendo is doing fine. Not super, but things will pick up to an extent
they need to get these games out NOW! not later to have any chance at all, sales have slowed down and they need to get their games out in Japan before Xbox launches (even though XBox wont do particularly well IMO) just look at how badly GC is doing soley against PS2, imagine when another console is introduced with its marketting and games, its going to take a lot of shine away from GC
They just have to rally some more high-profile 3rd-party support from stubborn developers like Tecmo and Konami.. and start shipping more \'Cubes to the US. The announcement that Enix is working on GCN software certainly gives it a boost in RPG fans\' eyes, especially in the Japanese market.
but they are NOT getting third party developers, they gained a few more but now they are starting to lose them again due to their poor sales. If Enix announce some RPG\'s then thats fantastic, GC is saved temporarily and will have enough of an installed base. Nintendo have royally ****ed up this gen so far and need to cover their asses and quickly!
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Amped never had the same build up as SSX...and its reviews scores were not as high and was never truely considered AAA status material, SSX was, your just using your opinion and your XBox bias on this one Watchdog
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You said this. You are obviously arguing that it is AAA.
You can\'t compare reviews from a year ago to reviews today--expectations are higher and therefore scores will be lower. If Amped was released a year ago, it would have recieved much better reviews. That alone wouldn\'t make it AAA. BTW, I really liked SSX too.
I guarentee that there are people still playing Ridge Racer and people who love it just as much as Halo--that means absolutely nothing. There are still playing Burger Time, but I wouldn\'t want to see a port.
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i wasnt arguing that it was AAA putz, i was arguing that SSX had the build up of a AAA game so it wouldnt be so far off if people did consider it the first PS2 AAA game..
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Originally posted by Terry Bogard
And all you care about is your pathetic Xbox? Come on, Oh if Xbox is in 2nd, thats where its going to stay. Nintendo will crumble from this No. Whats most important is........
People who have a particular Console preference will get the games that they wish to play. Who cares about the war, or how many consoles sold. Its all about the games IMO. Does anyone really really care about how many units sold over a kick ass game coming out to each system? So whos winning the war. SONY of course. Who has the better games SONY of course. I know this may be making me sound like a bias Sony fanboy, but, I own an Xbox, so that renders the fanboy part obselete. I\'m just saying, from the facts I read over the past weeks over game sales. Sony is brining it in. Not MS. Oh, and don\'t say DOA3 is a AAA game, even though the reiveiwers like it, because DOA3 isn\'t an AAA game, its just DOA 2 pretty. Wheres Xbox\'s other AAA game besides Halo? Hmm, I mean, Come on, PS2 has alot more AAA games then Xbox will its first year out.
Wow, you sound like a real xbox hater[/i].
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Originally posted by SonyFan
If Sony had started making consoles with the PS2.. then I have a feeling Sega would still be selling massive amounts of Dreamcasts, Nintnedo would be the console to beat, and this forum wouldn\'t even exist. Sony only overcame their initial problems because of the wonderful job they did with the PSX and the hype which followed it.
If I had several balls...I should be a billiard table :)
Sony whould have never started making consoles with a complex and difficult to develop for machine like PS2...FACT IS...they started with a friendly piece of hardware...and MS did the same...they are not stupid...
...I\'m pretty sure "XBox2" will have a new architecture too...
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
If XBox doesnt win this generation XBox will not ever win (and before you say anything...yes i can see into the future) Sony made a lot of screw ups this time round, probably more than any other company...running off the success of the most successful console ever (depsite the fact that the PSX only kicked as much ass as it did due to piracy) these problems have hardly hampered the PS2 in its attempt at the majority share in the business...
i really do think that Sony are going to come out swinging next generation (and obviously so will Microsoft)... and i believe the PS2 to be merely a training lesson for developers to get used to such issues as the multiple proccessors on multiple tasks and the texture streaming... PS2 is already incredibly popular, if developers want their games to be seen on it, they will need to learn...once they have learned it will all be good for the PS3 (or perhaps the PlayStationAdvance)
Can you imagine the marketing if both Sony and Microsoft launch their consoles at the same time next time round.. :eek:
Bob that has to be the most unthought out thing you said yet. If XBox doesnt win this generation XBox will not ever win. Bob I don\'t know if that was a thought out statement or something out of emotions. Microsoft knew they would not catch sony this generation. Sony was the number console maker last time around. They blew their competion out of the water. And they would come back this year with all the backing they had previously.
The industry does not work like you think son. As dominate as psx was. And all the hype and excitement that would go into it\'s sequal. There is noway in this industry you can expect to just come into a single generation and dethrone a console. Microsoft knows this and should have too.
And sony would have a one year lead on xbox. So Microsoft plain this generation is to gain developers and grab enough of the market to set themselves up for next generation. And it looks like all that is going to happen. The xbox is selling very well. Being internet reading it will be the first of the big three console to offer online games. So microsoft will have the entire online community to themselves.
And seeing how a lot of developers have many ideas for online gaming this gives xbox a tramedous boost. With developers seeing Microsofts commitment towards gaming and seeing what direction Microsoft wants to take xbox as far as total gaming that builds trust.
If this generation comes out like this. Sony-50%, Xbox-30%, and Nintendo 20%. Which it looks like this could very well be the case. Don\'t you think microsoft would have put themselves in a great position for next generation? I mean sony nearly had 20% of the market before xbox and gcn launched. But next generation gamers would have been able to see xbox and see what type of system it was really ment to be.
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Originally posted by BizioEE
...I\'m pretty sure "XBox2" will have a new architecture too...
see now this is a point i would have doubts about...but then again, its the obvious choice, they dont want bottle necks and other constictions so they would pretty much have to change...had the current generation been Microsoft\'s second generation, i\'d be willing to bet they would have gone the same way they did this time round..
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
see now this is a point i would have doubts about...but then again, its the obvious choice, they dont want bottle necks and other constictions so they would pretty much have to change...had the current generation been Microsoft\'s second generation, i\'d be willing to bet they would have gone the same way they did this time round..
It all depends on how tight the market is. If they pretty much demolished there competition I am sure they probally would.
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Originally posted by QuDDus
Bob that has to be the most unthought out thing you said yet. If XBox doesnt win this generation XBox will not ever win. Bob I don\'t know if that was a thought out statement or something out of emotions. Microsoft knew they would not catch sony this generation. Sony was the number console maker last time around. They blew their competion out of the water. And they would come back this year with all the backing they had previously.
The industry does not work like you think son. As dominate as psx was. And all the hype and excitement that would go into it\'s sequal. There is noway in this industry you can expect to just come into a single generation and dethrone a console. Microsoft knows this and should have too.
And sony would have a one year lead on xbox. So Microsoft plain this generation is to gain developers and grab enough of the market to set themselves up for next generation. And it looks like all that is going to happen. The xbox is selling very well. Being internet reading it will be the first of the big three console to offer online games. So microsoft will have the entire online community to themselves.
And seeing how a lot of developers have many ideas for online gaming this gives xbox a tramedous boost. With developers seeing Microsofts commitment towards gaming and seeing what direction Microsoft wants to take xbox as far as total gaming that builds trust.
If this generation comes out like this. Sony-50%, Xbox-30%, and Nintendo 20%. Which it looks like this could very well be the case. Don\'t you think microsoft would have put themselves in a great position for next generation? I mean sony nearly had 20% of the market before xbox and gcn launched. But next generation gamers would have been able to see xbox and see what type of system it was really ment to be.
i apologize, my post was badly phrased, but my point still remains that Microsoft (or any other console maker for that matter) have missed their best chance at dethroning Sony. this generation was the best chance they were going to have despite being a year behind
Sony made many mistakes this generation that Microsoft and Nintendo should have capitolised on... possibly all these mistakes allowed in the end was for them both to take a decent market share (for the overall good of the industry, who wants a monopoly). I never blieved Microsoft could take number one spot this gen. but i have always claimed that it was their best chance for reasons outlined above.
There is noway in this industry you can expect to just come into a single generation and dethrone a console
Lets look at the past and how Sony managed to dominate despite being a new name..
Sega and Nintendo held the entire market practically. Sega and Nintendo made mistakes and fuct up. Sony come in and take over.
This generation Sony is dominating, and they make mistakes and fuct up...Microsoft have not taken control and dominated.. Sony will remain dominant (and i will predict right now that it will be more than a 50% share)
Next generation...do you think Sony are going to be making the same mistakes?? therefore making it much MUCH harder for Microsoft to ceize control of the industry...
and remember son, whatever Microsoft try to start dominating the industry, Sony are also trying to stay on top of the industry
all i merely meant by my post was that it was their best chance, whether or not Microsoft were intending to take the number one spot or not..
:fro: toot on
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Originally posted by QuDDus
It all depends on how tight the market is. If they pretty much demolished there competition I am sure they probally would.
thats a good point..
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
Lets look at the past and how Sony managed to dominate despite being a new name..
Sega and Nintendo held the entire market practically. Sega and Nintendo made mistakes and fuct up. Sony come in and take over.
This generation Sony is dominating, and they make mistakes and fuct up...Microsoft have not taken control and dominated.. Sony will remain dominant (and i will predict right now that it will be more than a 50% share)
Next generation...do you think Sony are going to be making the same mistakes?? therefore making it much MUCH harder for Microsoft to ceize control of the industry...
and remember son, whatever Microsoft try to start dominating the industry, Sony are also trying to stay on top of the industry
all i merely meant by my post was that it was their best chance, whether or not Microsoft were intending to take the number one spot or not..
:fro: toot on
I knew you would bring up psx taking charge. But first let me say the market was getting stale. Nintendo had did developers bad. And sega was coming off unsuccessful ventures.
And this all I said-The industry does not work like you think son. As dominate as psx was. And all the hype and excitement that would go into it\'s sequal. There is noway in this industry you can expect to just come into a single generation and dethrone a console. Microsoft knows this and should have too.
I said as dominate as psx was. Sega nor Nintendo never sold 75million consoles in a single generation. If sega had of been that dominate there is noway psx would have been able to step right in and take over. Sony had an unpresidented fanbase. And developer backing.
You can think for hours and hours on the subject. Only way xbox would have stood a chance of being number 1 is if ps2 and xbox would have both launched last year. Sony took nearly 10million units sold in one year or more. That\'s a huge
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Originally posted by QuDDus
I knew you would bring up psx taking charge. But first let me say the market was getting stale. Nintendo had did developers bad.
the market was hardly growing stale, its easy to say that know seeing the revolution that PSX caused, but the market was not stale, it was constantly growing and it took the PSX to just accelerate that faster than ever before..
Originally posted by QuDDus
I said as dominate as psx was. Sega nor Nintendo never sold 75million consoles in a single generation. If sega had of been that dominate there is noway psx would have been able to step right in and take over. Sony had an unpresidented fanbase. And developer backing.
your comparing the industry 7 years ago directly to what it is today. the industry was not as big then as it is no. the Snes selling 50 million units worldwide would be about equivillent to PSX selling 75-100 million units.. my point above still stands. SEGA AND NINTENDO SCREWED UP BIG TIME AND SONY JUMPED IN AND TOOK CONTROL...im sure when Sony first decided to make their console they were only optimistically hopeful of getting a market share but the dev\'s screwed up and they capitolized on the opportunity. This time around Sony were the ones making the mistake and Microsoft have not taken the opportunity.
Sega and Nintendo did have the installed user base of the previous generation...Sega and Nintendo were the entire damn industry, before PC\'s even became huge... what Sony did to take of and dominate was HUGE
Sega + Nintendo dominate = screw up, Sony come out on top
Sony screw up = Sony come out on top
you can see what i mean about this being XBox\'s best chance??
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I\'m not going to post a long reply this time.. I\'m not going to post a long reply.. I\'m not.. okay, let\'s go. :)
Bob: Nintendo didn\'t screw up big time, IMO. They haven\'t "lost" any developers that we know of. I stated that Tecmo and Konami are stubborn, but in fact they are both working on GCN software. The problem is, the stuff they\'re providing is probably not on the level of a Ninja Gaiden or Castlevania title.. yet. Heck, Nintendo is so darned secretive that if Tecmo did have a Ninja Gaiden game going.. Nintendo would try to strong-arm them into announcing it at E3 or SW2002 instead of say, right now.
As for Capcom porting RE1/RE4 to PS2.. I think you\'ve been jumping to conclusions here. Just because Capcom executives have said "oh, if GCN isn\'t doing well enough.. we might have to port the game".. it doesn\'t mean much. Remember when Hiroshi Yamauchi said that the GCN would never launch if it wasn\'t well-accepted at E3 last year? ;)
You mention GCN\'s comparatively poor sales in Japan.. well then, my dear friend Bobby, the situation hasn\'t changed much! (unfortunately)
What does Nintendo have in Japan now? 7, 8 games? That is nothing compared to the PS2\'s lineup. If Nintendo made one mistake, that\'s it right there. Although, 2 games were able to sell 700,000 GCN units a few months ago (SSBM and Pikmin) so I\'m guessing it doesn\'t take much to move systems. I\'m guessing that RE1 will move at least 200,000 GCN units and prove to Japanese disbelievers that GCN has a chance to stay for the long-term. (and to prove that it\'s technologically better than PS2)
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i cant even remember what your replying to...care to edit your post and quote me? cos im lost and im too lazy to bother looking through the thread..
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
Sega + Nintendo dominate = screw up, Sony come out on top
Sega released a 400$ machine with subpar, new franchises and it was difficult to develope for to boot.
Nintendo came out a whole year later, and was cartridge based (expenesive,restrictions) for everyone compared to CD\'s.
PSX comes along, easy to develope for, CD based and with considerable power, a pretty impressive lineup, and 100$ below the competition.
That was a unique situation that doesn\'t exactly apply today.
The situation today is...
Sony=juggernaut ( Almost 2 years on the market, given name from last generation, huge library of games)
Nintendo=underdog, not going for first anyway.
MS=new entry, question marks nearly everywhere.
Sony screw up = Sony come out on top
you can see what i mean about this being XBox\'s best chance??
I wouldn\'t really call anything Sony has done a screw up...Being that PSX was a roaring success, the next generation of it was no doubt going to be in the eyes of gamers everywhere, bad media or not. Developers knew this and saw another opportunity to cash in. Now, why there was complaining abound about the difficulty of programming, if deveopers wanted their games on PS2 they would have to figure it out. That and other hardware was a bit of ways off, cash in now, we\'ll get to the others later.
And I wouldn\'t call Sony launching a whole year ahead of the competition a screw up either.
I\'m not trying to be a smartass, but what did sony screw up on?
IMO, Xbox still has a big chance to grab a huge part of the market. The system is not even 3 months old, has huge developer support, it\'s powerful, easy to develope for, hasn\'t launched everywhere, hard drive built in, modem built in...
What I\'m trying to say is "Sony screw up = Sony come out on top" is just speculation, we still have about 4-5 more years before the next gen rolls out and we know for sure...(you can\'t prove otherwise so don\'t argue it)
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god dammit Ginko...ive already told you...i can see into the future dumbass :p ;)
well, as i mentioned Sony\'s screw up were small, but they alienated most developers, sure they thought not restricting the developers to using libraries would be a good idea...but it WASNT, it cost the developers lots of time and money = screw up
most difficult machine ever to develope for as they were trying to innovate to impress the developers, driving developers away = screw up
losing some high name franchises (whther your personal opinion on them is positive or negative) due to these problems = screw up
relying on all sorts of add-ons etc. etc. = screw up
the list goes on! c\'mon Ginko, you know how Sony have screwed up many times
they could have dropped the price down, all sorts of marketting features...it seems to me Sony could have shut down the competition even with all the hardware and developers problems if they wanted to...but HAVENT
imagine is Sony built the all powerful, all easy to use machine this gen...they built...the gamecube, or the Xbox...simple and easy...NO DEVELOPERS would have left them, such as Lorne Lanning...NO DEVELOPERS would be *****ing, the console would be unstoppable..
by not building this machine, sony gave the competitors a sniff...this sniff...was not...err....sniffed (i dont know what the **** im talking about) you get what i mean... come on Ginko, your smart (im assuming)
YOU KNOW AS WELL AS I DO THAT SONY COULD HAVE COMPLETELY SHUT OUT ALL COMPETITION THIS GEN IF THEY WANTED TO
you\'ll have to forgive me...im drunk (well, practically, i havent touched a drink, but i am so exhasted, im dizzy, my head is spinning, cant see properly, im acting weird, you get my drift...this is freaky i think someone is spiking my water)
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
god dammit Ginko...ive already told you...i can see into the future dumbass :p ;)
well, as i mentioned Sony\'s screw up were small, but they alienated most developers, sure they thought not restricting the developers to using libraries would be a good idea...but it WASNT, it cost the developers lots of time and money = screw up
It was the only machine on the market and it has a huge userbase. Make a good game, make good money...How many is most? I don\'t remember very many leaving the PS2...
most difficult machine ever to develope for as they were trying to innovate to impress the developers, driving developers away = screw up
They wouldn\'t ignore that many PS2 users.
losing some high name franchises (whther your personal opinion on them is positive or negative) due to these problems = screw up
And pay to keep the more high profile one\'s around...ala Square. ;) j/k...maybe.
relying on all sorts of add-ons etc. etc. = screw up
I don\'t think they will rely on them, as they already have success without them.
they could have dropped the price down, all sorts of marketting features...it seems to me Sony could have shut down the competition even with all the hardware and developers problems if they wanted to...but HAVENT
Totally agree, they could slaughter MS and N right now. This is a big question mark.
[/quote]imagine is Sony built the all powerful, all easy to use machine this gen...they built...the gamecube, or the Xbox...simple and easy...NO DEVELOPERS would have left them, such as Lorne Lanning...NO DEVELOPERS would be *****ing, the console would be unstoppable..[/quote]
But this isn\'t the case...you have to look at what it is. Not what it could have been.
They lost very few developers though...once again, why would someone want to ignore that impending userbase.
by not building this machine, sony gave the competitors a sniff...this sniff...was not...err....sniffed (i dont know what the **** im talking about) you get what i mean... come on Ginko, your smart (im assuming)
you\'ll have to forgive me...im drunk
Now that I look at it, would MS have stepped in if the PS2 had been "perfect"? Has Sony sealed their own fate?
So much speculation to be done!!
and I\'m sleepy with no interest to carry this on further...if it\'s all the same to you? ;)
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bah! no interest! you know im gonna whoop your ass!
but to be honest i am so ****ing dead right now, i dont even know if any of the **** i just spouted out makes sense..
g\'night, \'til next time
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
bah! no interest! you know im gonna whoop your ass!
but to be honest i am so ****ing dead right now, i dont even know if any of the **** i just spouted out makes sense..
g\'night, \'til next time
BRING IT ON, bring it on...
I\'ll come back when I\'m a little more collected and I can actually make sense...
oh yes...til\' next time. *imagine a laugh of impending doom coming your way.:P
c-ya
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Originally posted by Ginko
It was the only machine on the market and it has a huge userbase. Make a good game, make good money...How many is most? I don\'t remember very many leaving the PS2...
not leaving, but Sony dont have full control and the exclucivity they had on the PSX...sure as far as im concerned most series like Oddworld (sorry mm) DoA, Dino Crisis etc. etc. etc. sucked balls...but they mattered to some people and the developers jumped ship with them..
Originally posted by Ginko
They wouldn\'t ignore that many PS2 users.
not fully, and PS2 does still have more backing with third parties than any other console (600+ devs :eek:) but see my point above
but whiny little ***** dev\'s such as lorne lanning did nothing but complain about how the XBox would be much more viable economically due to the fact that even if PS2 had a slight lead in the user base, XBox was so much more cost effective to develope for..
Originally posted by Ginko
And pay to keep the more high profile one\'s around...ala Square. ;) j/k...maybe.
tee hee :) its not like anyone like Microsoft would ever do such a thing is it? ;) Sony know Square are the most lucritive company to have working for them, and now that they own 20% stock in them and have been helping them financiall for a number of years.. \'tis all good for my fav. company and my fav. console :)
Originally posted by Ginko
I don\'t think they will rely on them, as they already have success without them.
relying on them for success? no...relying on them to keep up technologically with XBox? yes
Originally posted by Ginko
But this isn\'t the case...you have to look at what it is. Not what it could have been.
They lost very few developers though...once again, why would someone want to ignore that impending userbase.
i was being hypothetical for point of arguement :)
Originally posted by Ginko
BRING IT ON, bring it on...
IT HAS BEEN BROUGHT! although these are only mute points, the debate/arguement/discussion has dumbed down quite a bit, hasnt it?
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
see now this is a point i would have doubts about...but then again, its the obvious choice, they dont want bottle necks and other constictions so they would pretty much have to change...had the current generation been Microsoft\'s second generation, i\'d be willing to bet they would have gone the same way they did this time round..
Bobs...each console of this generation have some bottlenecks somewhere and having a "new architecture" doesn\'t necessarily save you from having some problems and limitations...PS2 has a totally new architecture and I was so excited when I heard about the 2560 bit bus with 48 GB/sec...but...I didn\'t know that only data in the 4 MB of eDRAM will operate at 48 GB/sec(nearly half will go to frame and Z-buffers depending on color depth).
Anything that is not in eDRAM must come from main RAM. Using the rule of bottlenecks, you are only as fast as the slowest part in the system...
Overall,the XBox has less bottlenecks than both PS2 and GC...though it uses an "old architecture"...
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another screw up on Sony\'s behalf :p
point taken Busy-O
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
another screw up on Sony\'s behalf :p
point taken Busy-O
You think just because sony made some crew ups that they are going to deny 75-100 million gamers.
You can screw up when your the dominating factor. They know there fanbase is going to carry over to the ps2. And they know developers have to come to them because of there huge fanbase. But now if sony was to pull those same mistakes with ps3 then they could find themselves losing out.
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yeah i know...whats your point?
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Man! Why did I neglect this topic? Many different people made asses of themselves in this thread and I missed the chance totcall them on it!
DAMN!
Eric Jacob
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not leaving, but Sony dont have full control and the exclucivity they had on the PSX...sure as far as im concerned most series like Oddworld (sorry mm) DoA, Dino Crisis etc. etc. etc. sucked balls...but they mattered to some people and the developers jumped ship with them..
Had there been more viable consoles out at the time for developers to explore, I think PSX would have been a different story.
Saturn was dead, N64 was difficult to develope for, PSX was in the mainstream, CD based, and easy to develop for. I don\'t think developers really had a choice...point being that Sony really never had "control", it just happened that way...
NOW is a different story...they have options.
but whiny little ***** dev\'s such as lorne lanning did nothing but complain about how the XBox would be much more viable economically due to the fact that even if PS2 had a slight lead in the user base, XBox was so much more cost effective to develope for..
true...what was the arguement here? Was it that PS2 screwed up or something like that? Sorry, I forgot and don\'t really want to read back...
tee hee :) its not like anyone like Microsoft would ever do such a thing is it? ;) Sony know Square are the most lucritive company to have working for them, and now that they own 20% stock in them and have been helping them financiall for a number of years.. \'tis all good for my fav. company and my fav. console :)
MS is just as guilty I\'m sure...Sony did what they needed too. It was a good move IMO. Again, what was the arguement?
relying on them for success? no...relying on them to keep up technologically with XBox? yes
This is a screw up, but I don\'t think it will make any dents in Sony so to speak.
IT HAS BEEN BROUGHT! although these are only mute points, the debate/arguement/discussion has dumbed down quite a bit, hasnt it?
It\'s lost all meaning...I wish someone else would jump in with some different views on the subject...anyone?
It was/is a good debate though;)
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dun\' worry Ginko, i no longer hate you :p
and Altered...you still have time... my bet is you cant do **** :px2
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
and Altered...you still have time... my bet is you cant do **** :px2
I have the same feeling...step up Altered.
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Originally posted by Ginko
Who is this aimed at in particular? IMO, this thread was very orderly...what\'s the problem? Who talked trash? Who\'s forcing their opinion of Xbox on you?
Ginko, sorry for the late reply. I wasn\'t ignoring you, just wasn\'t able to stick around after I posted. Who I was aiming at in this particular thread?
Originally posted by Watchdog
I don\'t think anyone expected MS to do this well. So well that we can actually have this argument. So well that it has many people around here scared to death that they might have made the wrong choice (read: fanboys).
I read NPYYZ making almost the exact same comment about PS2 fans being scared they may have made the ‘wrong choice\' in another thread not too long before reading it in Watchdog\'s post. To me, a guy with a stack of PSX games I still look forward to playing, this idea of paranoid PS2 owners is utterly absurd. I offer an opposing view by saying they\'d be more likely to find the truly insecure PS2 fans on xbox boards and that the same thing goes the other way around. Hint hint :rolleyes:
One man\'s trash talk is another man\'s treasured opinion. I see digging any more through the mounds here as going nowhere. And Ginko, if I\'m reading you correctly, you\'re right. Noone can force their opinion on me. Try as they might