PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: jiggs on March 14, 2002, 08:54:59 PM
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Try to be objective on this one. Which is the system that (nonwithstanding games because its up to that company to secure the best prouducts avaliable) is the most capable? Please explain why you believe your choice is the best. There are only four options so add another if you like. Remember potential should be a concern in your choice. Try to focus on the system not the games or programs but keep in mind this is where you play games. Treat this as though you were a salesman for your choice. My choice is the PC.
________
MEDICAL MARIHUANA DISPENSARY (http://www.dispensaries.org/)
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The PC is always going to be the premier platform as far as power and versitility go. Really, It\'s a whole different machine for a whole different purpose than consoles, so I don\'t really think it should be in that list.
As far as consoles go, I\'m pretty sure everyone here can agree that the Xbox is the most capable, both in terms of graphics and extras such as the harddrive. The only really limiting thing about the Xbox is it\'s ethernet only modem. They cut out a huge portion of their potential online market by focusing solely on broadband. It\'s a real shame, but at least for those lucky few who have it they\'ll get some kick ass games that were developed with super speed connections in mind.
PS2 online games will be developed with the lowest common denominator in mind.. ala 56k. Though they will still cater to broadband usage, you won\'t have as many features as the Xbox versions do. The trade off, is that you\'ll have far.. far.. more opponents and fellow gamers to meet online. If optimised right, a game built for 56k online play will show very little lag. Sega\'s done a great job making games where the online experience is as seamless as possible. Though it\'s still there (don\'t plan on keeping pace with BB users), it\'s far less laggy than you would ever expect. I\'m sure Sony and their army of developers can create games which provide just as good a online experience over 56k.
I know this thread was talking about "out of the box" capabilities, but I gotta say I also like the idea of making the PS2\'s Harddrive removable. It\'s basically like have a 40 gig memory card which you can swap in and out or trade with your friends. (Though you\'d probably still need 2 PS2\'s linked together for a transfer unless someone makes a device seperate from the PS2 which can transfer data from 1 HDD to another.)
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Oh, PC by far.
Out of the consoles though, it\'s the Xbox.
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The xbox is techniqually the most powerfull, the question is
1.) How far will it improve
2.) Will it continue to be held by by its PC developers? (sadly, the premiere developers beacuse of next to no japaneese support besides the bought sega who was platform agnostic before the money hat)
If the 25% GT3 data is correct.. there will not really be much difference
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Originally posted by Chrono
The xbox is techniqually the most powerfull, the question is
1.) How far will it improve
2.) Will it continue to be held by by its PC developers? (sadly, the premiere developers beacuse of next to no japaneese support besides the bought sega who was platform agnostic before the money hat)
Chrono, Do you know PS2 is not the only console in the world? You are to danm bias. Anyways, what are you talking about no Japaneese support. I posted this info and you was the first to reply. Are you trying to poison peoples minds? Please read below.
My topic:
Link: http://www.psx2central.com/forums/showthread.php?
There are more than 90 Japanese companies working on Xbox software now and we\'re attracting even more.[/color] For example, look at Bunkasha Games and their recently released title \'Double Steal.\' They were inexperienced in console game development but very strong in Windows, and they created an excellent first title. Amongst developers there\'s a tendency to avoid a platform if you assume the development cost will be too high. On the Xbox we\'ve shown highly creative titles can be brought to the market for minimal cost, and that\'s attracting bigger companies like Capcom and Konami. In the larger sense, this will lead to more activity in the market.
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""Namco has revealed its plans to bring Dead to Rights to the Xbox.""
XBox technically can do everything better than the other consoles this gen...hope dev. will take full advantage of the Extras!
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Isn\'t it a bit unfair to compare consoles with PC? Of course the PC will have more hardware options!
As for the poll, what do you mean with "hardware options"?
The most capable out of the consoles, would be the PS2 IMO for obvious reasons:
- Freedom in development
- Architecture that\'s dedicated 100% for 3d/2d graphics
- Connectivity can ensure future upgrades
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BizioEE: Actually, the Xbox doesn\'t do everything better.
The GameCube/PS2 rival and beat it in a few categories.
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There are more than 90 Japanese companies working on Xbox software now and we\'re attracting even more. For example, look at Bunkasha Games and their recently released title \'Double Steal.\' They were inexperienced in console game development but very strong in Windows, and they created an excellent first title.
And how many copies of the game did they sell, and how many consoles sold that week?
I rest my case
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90 developers..yeah and the titles will be like something like "Nihon no crap de sushi muki to wasabi" and "Fish Eating simulator ver 2.16"
I won\'t hesitate to buy an X-Box if i can see tons of exclusive BIG NAME titles coming to it..but I don\'t even see one japanese RPG(my faved) worth buying right now.
As far as I can see, there\'s tons of PC ports/sequela and PC like games coming to the X-Box...and the reason I buy a console is to get away from all those PC games!!!
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^
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| im with this guy
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I had to go with gamecube cause it has the best chip. The dolphin. Dolphins are smart.
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Originally posted by seven
Isn\'t it a bit unfair to compare consoles with PC? Of course the PC will have more hardware options!
As for the poll, what do you mean with "hardware options"?
The most capable out of the consoles, would be the PS2 IMO for obvious reasons:
- Freedom in development
- Architecture that\'s dedicated 100% for 3d/2d graphics
- Connectivity can ensure future upgrades
[/B]
Freedom in development
In what sense? what freedom? fighting with the harware to achieve good graphics is freedom?
Architecture that\'s dedicated 100% for 3d/2d graphics
The funniest thing I have ever heard...again...in what sense?
Connectivity can ensure future upgrades
upgrades,add-on ? here a proved formula for you ---> add-ons = failure!
something else?:o
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In what sense? what freedom? fighting with the harware to achieve good graphics is freedom?
Freedome to code on the metal... It does wtf you tell it to do.
Developers complained on the PSX because they did not get to code on the metal. Now they got what they wanted.
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Originally posted by fastson
Freedome to code on the metal... It does wtf you tell it to do.
Developers complained on the PSX because they did not get to code on the metal. Now they got what they wanted.
I know it...and you\'re right if you mean freadom in this way...
...and I won\'t start another war...
ps: I\'m getting the jap VF4! can\'t wait.
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Freedom because PS2 developers are forced to work on a very deep level (hardware level) to achieve what they want. While this is very difficult and takes up a lot of time, it allowes developers to be very flexible in terms of how they want to achieve something. I guess you can compare it a bit with any 3rd generation programing (C, Java) language to a 1st gen (Assembly). While Assembler is very difficult to achieve, you can do much more stuff since you\'re on a much deeper level which C would never allow. Xbox developers have to do this to a certain extend to if they want to get some serious performance out of the vertex shaders - but PS2 developers have no choice but to program in C/C++, Assembler and Vector Microcode. As you might remember, the power of the Emotion Engine lies within the Vector Units and that\'s where developers will HAVE TO use specific microcode to get where they want. This is very hard, but gives the developers the freedom to achieve things the way they want.
Architecture that is 100% dedicated to 3d/2d processing:
Well, this one is easy. Xbox is roughly very close to a PC architecture. And anyone knows how good the x86 platform is for gaming and moving pictures, right? The PS2 however is designed from the core to the rest of the hardware components to run this specific type of applications. The high bandwidths, the small memory - it all adds up. You should read the article from Jon Hannibal at Ars, it\'s a very interesting read and explains why the PS2\'s design is more then excellent for this type of apps.
Connectivity:
Well, it\'s not necessery, but with the low price of the future upgrade of an BBA and HDD will ensure that they will be enough buyers who are interested to play online and other stuff. With connectivity I also ment the interfaces, that enables you to hook up any USB device, any thing really as long as the application allows it. This also give developers the freedom to implement things that people can make use of. This makes the PS2 have quite a potential if developers or Sony choose to make use of it.
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Originally posted by seven
Architecture that is 100% dedicated to 3d/2d processing:
Well, this one is easy. Xbox is roughly very close to a PC architecture. And anyone knows how good the x86 platform is for gaming and moving pictures, right? The PS2 however is designed from the core to the rest of the hardware components to run this specific type of applications. The high bandwidths, the small memory - it all adds up. You should read the article from Jon Hannibal at Ars, it\'s a very interesting read and explains why the PS2\'s design is more then excellent for this type of apps.
Graphics?
Anyone who uses the vector units to perform pixel shader effects (reflective/refractive bump-mapping, depth sprites, image convolution, etc.) is just wasting his time... performance would be unacceptably bad. Per-pixel effects belong on the processor that is responsible for handling pixels - this is where the PS2 fails most miserably... the GS supports fewer per-pixel effects than the 3dfx Voodoo 1.
For practical graphics/gaming applications, there is very little different between VU1 in the PS2 and the vertex shader on the NV2A, except for the fact that the vertex shader is vastly easier to program and runs much, much faster. And you\'d be silly if you thought that vertex shaders couldn\'t be parallelized -- in fact, the Xbox already has 2 of them.
VU1 has more temporary storage in its on-die RAM, some minimal integer computation capability, and the ability to branch -- aside from that, it really doesn\'t offer anything above and beyond what vertex shaders offer... and most of the branching/loading capability is used to do inane things like load vertices and matrices (things that are abstracted from the programmer in vertex shader assembly).
As for pixel shaders -- there are limitations in both competing pixel shader implementations (ATI\'s is slightly more generalized with a little more control given to the programmer for address computation texture stages, but DX8 makes it look much more generalized that it is); however, there is still quite a bit of opportunity for programmer-controlled pixel math, compared to virtually none on the PS2. Comparing pixel shaders with vector units is a very flawed concept.
Pixel shaders aren\'t going to become more and more complex -- they are going to become simpler, and capable of running unbelievably fast.
Sony, on the other hand, chose a difficult-to-understand architecture that is nigh-impossible to emulate without dedicated hardware and (unfortunately) has some rather significant flaws. There\'s nothing keeping Sony from fixing the flaws in the current GS; however, the costs of fabricating a chip with at least 16MB of embedded DRAM, at least 16 programmable pixel shader units (each with at least 2 texel fetch units), and running at at least 500MHz would probably eclipse the cost of NVIDIA\'s chip.
Connectivity:
Well, it\'s not necessery, but with the low price of the future upgrade of an BBA and HDD will ensure that they will be enough buyers who are interested to play online and other stuff. With connectivity I also ment the interfaces, that enables you to hook up any USB device, any thing really as long as the application allows it. This also give developers the freedom to implement things that people can make use of. This makes the PS2 have quite a potential if developers or Sony choose to make use of it.
add-ons = FAILURE !
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X box because it is a PC in a box after all
:rolleyes:
i am kidding just kidding please don\'t quote or flame me
:clown:
look i know its a cheap shot but its been 3 days since i last bashed M$$$$$$$$
;)
that one was for BizioEE
:p
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Thanks ooseven :p
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Originally posted by BizioEE
Thanks ooseven :p
no problem ... i knew a lot of people must of been worried when a whole 3 days passed with out me bashing Microsoft ;)
they must of thought the worsed happend to me
..............
like Gates offering me a Job at his HQ ;)
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Originally posted by ooseven
no problem ... i knew a lot of people must of been worried when a whole 3 days passed with out me bashing Microsoft ;)
they must of thought the worsed happend to me
..............
like Gates offering me a Job at his HQ ;)
I was worried about you...:)
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well lets see if it was from those i would go to PC
but otherwise PS2 - ok i dont know what yall were getting but it says hardware options
- to me that means like what you can hook up to the PS2 - hence 40gig hdd beats out xbox - and possible 56k and bb beats out xbox as well
also you have usb and firewire on ps2 as well which support key and mouse - something xbox is lacking
also there are many other things that can be made to take advantage of those ports such as 4 controllers without multi tap
see there a lot that PS2 exceeds in and can exceed in with hardware "options"
otherwise duh its xbox for hardware only - i mean you get a pc from two years ago and compare it to one built today and lets see which one is better - its a gimmie why argue it
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My God Bizio, you\'re a ****head. First of all, you posting articles you don\'t understand won\'t get you anywhere - and besides you completely missed my point and the one of this thread:
Graphics?
Anyone who uses the vector units to perform pixel shader effects (reflective/refractive bump-mapping, depth sprites, image convolution, etc.) is just wasting his time... performance would be unacceptably bad. Per-pixel effects belong on the processor that is responsible for handling pixels - this is where the PS2 fails most miserably... the GS supports fewer per-pixel effects than the 3dfx Voodoo 1.
What is this? I won\'t quote that stuff you copy/paste from else where, but is this necessery? At least post something relevant. It is a clear that the architecture of the PS2 is 100% dedicated for 3d/2d applications - something that Xbox simply IS NOT. With "Architecture", I wasn\'t talking about the VU\'s or the Vertex Shaders that Xbox has. Either read what I post or post something relevant but not that crap above.
add-ons = FAILURE !
Not necessarely. Are the memorycards a failure? No. It\'s all about the price and what people want. If the price is right and people like what they see, then they will buy it. Just because it\'s a add-on does not mean it will fail - right now it\'s all up to Sony and the developers. And BTW: we aren\'t taling about what is a failure or not - but what has "POTENTIAL" (see thread). You might be masculin, but you certainly don\'t have too many braincells up there do you?
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Add ons are a failure when they cost too much.
Add ons like the Sega 32X failed.
Add ons like the Expansion Pak for N64 succeed.
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there\'s one factor in the success rate of an addon
cost
thats it
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Originally posted by seven
Not necessarely. Are the memorycards a failure? No. It\'s all about the price and what people want. If the price is right and people like what they see, then they will buy it. Just because it\'s a add-on does not mean it will fail - right now it\'s all up to Sony and the developers.
The memory cards are a necessity...A 40 gig HD and modem are not.
And as far as price goes, I don\'t like paying nearly 40$ for a memory card, it\'s that I have to...
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Yes, memory cars are necessity - but it\'s a add-on none the less. People buy memory cars because they want to save their progress. People will buy the HDD and BBA if they want to play online if the price is right. If this add-on will be a failure is up to Sony. ;)
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People buy memory cards because they want to save their progress.
Have to, with games like Jak & Daxter, ICO, FFX, and MGS2 that require you to put in the hours. You have no option but to buy a memory card.
Going online is different, it\'s a niche crowd to begin with. Then you have to purchase extra components...
People will buy the HDD and BBA if they want to play online if the price is right.
And also if the games entice enough to warrant such a price.
Can you buy one or the other, or do you have to buy both?
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you can buy just one or else they wouldnt sell them seperately now would they
the hdd is not needed to use the internet service for sony but is merely to take full advantage of the service through dling levels and games and music and so on
and another thing if you say hey here a mem card for 40 bucks but for 60 more dollars approxaimately you can have an endless supply of memory cards and also be able to play people over the internet
in that sense it doesnt sound so bad
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What is this? I won\'t quote that stuff you copy/paste from else where, but is this necessery? At least post something relevant. It is a clear that the architecture of the PS2 is 100% dedicated for 3d/2d applications - something that Xbox simply IS NOT. With "Architecture", I wasn\'t talking about the VU\'s or the Vertex Shaders that Xbox has. Either read what I post or post something relevant but not that crap above.
You\'re the only one who posts crap...
What I care is the final result...and XBox outclasses PS2 graphically! PS2 is 100% dedicated for 3d/2d applications? and GC and XBox ? :rolleyes: you\'re funny seven...after 2 years PS2 can\'t compete with DC in texturing and image quality...I see dev fighting with the hardware...and only good result in the graphics department...
stop to be a clown...playing with words...PS2 is an inferior piece of hardware compared to both XBox and GC! Overall!...and it\'s obvious...
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it better be
its over two years older
PC components double in size and take up half as much space
every 18 months
what i think he means is that we dont see a two year difference in the hardware and software
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When will people open their eyes?
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Damn, this guy should really learn english:
BizioEE, this topic doesn\'t say "which system is the best" - it is labled "which system has the best hardware options / most potential". Do you know what that means? It means we aren\'t debating which VU or Vertex Shader can get you high more quickly, but which hardware has the most potential. Reread my post and post something relevant if you wish to debate.
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Originally posted by seven
Damn, this guy should really learn english:
BizioEE, this topic doesn\'t say "which system is the best" - it is labled "which system has the best hardware options / most potential". Do you know what that means? It means we aren\'t debating which VU or Vertex Shader can get you high more quickly, but which hardware has the most potential. Reread my post and post something relevant if you wish to debate.
well...in this case I\'m not the only one who needs to learn english:)
by seven
Well, this one is easy. Xbox is roughly very close to a PC architecture. And anyone knows how good the x86 platform is for gaming and moving pictures, right? The PS2 however is designed from the core to the rest of the hardware components to run this specific type of applications. The high bandwidths, the small memory - it all adds up.
are you off topic or am I wrong? haven\'you any clue what you\'re speaking about or...am I wrong?
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Originally posted by BizioEE
are you off topic or am I wrong? haven\'you any clue what you\'re speaking about or...am I wrong?
meowwwww
// me makes cat like scratching movment with my right hand
now the real question is..
sould i just stand by and watch the two of them have a Cat fight or sohuld i wade in and stop them ?
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Originally posted by BizioEE
are you off topic or am I wrong? haven\'you any clue what you\'re speaking about or...am I wrong?
He was making a reply to you idiota! :)
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Originally posted by fastson
He was making a reply to you idiota! :)
and then I replied to him idiota!;)
it\'s too easy with you fastson:p ...are you really so fast fastson?
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Originally posted by BizioEE
and I replied to him idiota!;)
Hmm maybe i SOULD just let seven tare you a new SPACE HOLE !
;)
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are you off topic or am I wrong? haven\'you any clue what you\'re speaking about or...am I wrong?
Here we go again... :rolleyes:
I was talking about the >>POTENTIAL<< and as Fast already pointed out, that post was a reply to one of your stupid posts. I never argued which system is better. C\'mon Bizio, English can\'t be that hard, riiiight?
I rest my case.
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Originally posted by seven
Here we go again... :rolleyes:
I was talking about the >>POTENTIAL<< and as Fast already pointed out, that post was a reply to one of your stupid posts. I never argued which system is better. C\'mon Bizio, English can\'t be that hard, riiiight?
I rest my case.
oh he\'s Good in fact hes Damn Good
//Me takes my Hat off to seven !
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Originally posted by seven
Here we go again... :rolleyes:
I was talking about the >>POTENTIAL<< and as Fast already pointed out, that post was a reply to one of your stupid posts. I never argued which system is better. C\'mon Bizio, English can\'t be that hard, riiiight?
I rest my case.
seven...I think the same about all your posts...biased as hell...
...like this
Xbox is roughly very close to a PC architecture. And anyone knows how good the x86 platform is for gaming and moving pictures, right?
can you elaborate? ...I\'ll give you the answer..."NO"...because you are a Sony Tool...you can have credibility only here...in the Central of PS2 mindless fanboy! only here dear seven:)
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Originally posted by BizioEE
can you elaborate? ...I\'ll give you the answer..."NO"...because you are a Sony Tool...you can have credibility only here...in the Central of PS2 mindless fanboy! only here dear seven:)
i Do hope hes talking to me... as i can be out to ROME tonight with my lenght of rubber hoes to beat him with before he can say "just wait till E3 "
;)
:p
damn i am right cheeky tonight , there must be something in the AIR !