PSX5Central
Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: luckee on April 04, 2002, 07:41:24 PM
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it\'s on purpose and not accident.
Here\'s what we need to debate:
1) Christians think God is all powerful
2) Christians think God loves every human on the face of the earth
3) Christians think God wants to "save" us (whatever that means)
4) Christians believe in hell, and view Satan as the landlord of this institution.
5) Christians believe that if you "mess up," you\'re going to hell.
6) Christians believe that Satan tries to lure otherwise good individuals into his "traps," taking said individual away from the "good" side.
If this is the case, wouldn\'t that mean that Satan has a good deal of power over God? In fact, wouldn\'t it suggest that Satan is much more
powerful than God? With the Christian line of logic, this seems the case to me... especially since there are more non-Christians in the
world than there are Christians.
I suggest that if the Christians would want to argue anything else... say, that Satan isn\'t as powerful as God, there would have to be more of
"God\'s people" in the world than "Satan\'s people." I\'m one of Satan\'s people by their definition, as are the many other atheists, agnostics,
Muslims, Jews, etc, etc, etc.
Thoughts/Rebuttals/Flames/Agreements/Damnations? Bring \'em on :D
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Usually when you point out that since God gave us free will, we shouldn\'t be punished for making choices with the information in our world (ie, no miracles, no direct intervention from the Lord), christians reply that God is good, and wants us to make the right choices. Problem I have with that is, if he was good, or even cared about our fate, he would have made the correct religeon/practices VERY clear.
Let me be VERY clear. Not stone tablets, thousands of years ago. Not speaking through a medium (be it Jesus, Mohammed, or Noah). Not through writings based on human interpretation and storytelling.
No, \'God\' doesn\'t fit into any of the organized religeons, because of the simple fact that they almost all say that God loves us. If he did love us, he wouldn\'t punish us for our free will mistakes - because you can\'t put someone in a maze, and punish them for taking the wrong passage, when all the passages are alike (well, you can\'t do that if you love the person). If God were going to punish us (allow us to be punished), he would make sure we knew exactly what he wanted. Example: Booming voice just before you commit murder, directly into your soul \'are you SURE you want to do that??\'
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There are more Christians in the world than non-Christians.
Jews, Muslims = not satan\'s people.
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God gave us a free will. He doesn\'t want to \'make\' us love him. Its our choice, whether we follow him, or follow darkness, its our choice.
As for Satan, well God created him. He is a fallen angel. He used to be a high ranking angel, but became jealous and tried to over power God. This of course, didn\'t work, so God banished him from Heaven. That is why Satan is trying to tempt people, to get as many people to go down with him as possible. He is a jealous person, and doesn\'t want other people to get what he missed out on.
And, once again, might I remind you, that Christianity is NOT a religion. It is a belief and a way of life. Religion is based purely on tradition and laws.
Yes, there a laws in Christianity, but once again, God gave us a free will, we can choose to follow them, or turn our backs. Its up to us.
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Basically it\'s, try to live your life for God through his ways and teachings. It\'s not always easy to do, but then again we aren\'t perfect so we should just try our best. It\'s really up to you. If you want to have eternal life with no pain after this one, then choose God. If you want eternal torment, you can hang out with Satan in hell. Not rocket science guys. :)
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I hate luckee sooooo much....
rough estimate, i say this thread goes 250 posts.
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hehe yea, what\'s the deal luckee. Usually when a non-Christian posts something such as this it\'s because they are looking for answers.
Next time just visit your local church! :D Or just come to mine. I promise you no one will call you part of Satan\'s people.
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Originally posted by THX
hehe yea, what\'s the deal luckee. Usually when a non-Christian posts something such as this it\'s because they are looking for answers.
Next time just visit your local church! :D Or just come to mine. I promise you no one will call you part of Satan\'s people.
who says Im a non-christian? I could be a christian loosing faith :)
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who says Im a non-christian? I could be a christian loosing faith
True, but if you\'re falling away from God guess who moved?
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Woohoo. Another religion thread. :)
FatalXception:
Usually when you point out that since God gave us free will, we shouldn\'t be punished for making choices with the information in our world (ie, no miracles, no direct intervention from the Lord),
I agree, we shouldn\'t be punished for things that we don\'t know are right or wrong. Like some cultures in Africa go around and kill people from different "tribes." Will they be punished for murdur? Of course not, because they don\'t know that murder is wrong. But in our cases, we do know what is right and wrong (for the most part). So we will be held accountable for the things that we knowingly do wrong. We might not have visible miricles happening all the time; Jesus Christ isn\'t walking on the earth right now; We have not seen the many things talked about in the scriptures, etc. But that is no excuse for going against what we know is right.
christians reply that God is good, and wants us to make the right choices. Problem I have with that is, if he was good, or even cared about our fate, he would have made the correct religeon/practices VERY clear.
He did make it clear, many many times. But us, as the human race, have free agency (like many have already said). It is our fault that everybody on this earth doesn\'t know his teachings. We are the ones who chose to ignore, alter, and forget his teachings.
If God were going to punish us (allow us to be punished), he would make sure we knew exactly what he wanted. Example: Booming voice just before you commit murder, directly into your soul \'are you SURE you want to do that??\'
That would take away from our free agency. Imagine if your dad was with you nomatter where you were, and he yelled at you every time you were about to do something wrong. Would you call that being free?
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I think God created the big bang then he created dinosaurs and he wanted to start over so he mad a big meteor that landed in mehico and then made apes because he knew that apes would one day evolve into humans!
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I think if humans took all the time, money, and energy they waste on religion and spent it trying to actually help people (i.e. cure cancer, feed the starving) the world would be a much better place. Like in the middle east. If they all stopped fighting about God, they would realize they all live in a sh!thole.
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luckee,
If your gonna comment and lambast Christianity, please inform yourself first. Arguing out of ignorance is getting you nowhere.
I didn\'t read any of the responses because I wanted to respond to you directly.
According to the Bible, which us Christians believe is the written word of God, Satan was given control of the 2 heavens. The 2 Heavens are Earth, and space.
So it\'s funny when people blame God when bad things happen, considering that Satan is in control/influence here. This was done by mans own arrogance in the garden of Eden when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. You know, original sin.
At one point in the Bible (sorry I can\'t quote Chapter and Verse), Satan is talking to Jesus and tells him that if he bows down before him he will grant all this (as he spreads his hands out) to be his.
Since that point man has been destin to suffer, and evil has been allowed to come into mans hearts.
Sure, I guess you can blame God for "letting" Satan get this foothold on the world, but how else can God test us to see what side we\'re on??
In the book of Revelations which refers to the second coming of Jesus and the end of the world **as we know it**, it says that the Devil comes with wrath because he knows his time is short. He\'s had thousands of years to get as many souls as he could, but his "earthly" reign is nearly over.
Anyway, there\'s a little info on Cristian beliefs. If you want to make arguments in the future, try to educate yourself first on the topic you wish to debate.
Cyg.
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Did noah build a bunch of cages for the animals? I mean wouldn\'t the dinosaur eat the beavers? I know I like to eat beaver.:thepimp:
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Shhhhhhh go to confession, and confess your secrets, :rolleyes:
Fukk all religion, it is good for cavemen and the like, ... go live in the bush if you want religion :laughing:
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Menacing methods label me a lethal weapon,
Spiting rhymes and bullets,
Say my name 3 times like Candy-man,
Busting shots like I lost my mind,
25 to life never crossed my mind,
There\'s YOUR religion homey!
What ya doin here?:laughing:
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Originally posted by THX
True, but if you\'re falling away from God guess who moved?
ugh... my mom has a magnet with that on it on our fridge.
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Originally posted by CygnusXI
There\'s YOUR religion homey!
What ya doin here?:laughing:
2Pac got it right, and Religion is just a work of fiction for the mentally weak who watch too much CNN.
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I could make this complicated, but :
There\'s no God, there\'s no Satan. The End.
Well...
If there is a "God", he\'s probably sitting somewhere with "Satan" (if there is one) and havin\' a good laught at our expense :p
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Mentally Weak???
Man, your pathetic. I could kick your ass mentally anyday.
Or how\'s this? Since I don\'t agree with the theory of evoloution how about I call those that do "mentally weak".
How lame. Oooo let\'s call people names for what they believe.:rolleyes:
Great argument. Oh and FYI, CNN is anything but a bastion of religious fervor, so I highly doubt watching too much of it would foster spiritual growth. (let me know if I should translate to ghetto speak)
You wanna add something other than bile, and insults?
I have no problem with opinions, even if they\'re 180° out of sync with mine, but don\'t bring your sorry ass in here just to insult people\'s beliefs with prepubesent statements.
2pac was a no talent hack who shoulda been a blow job from the whore who was his momma.... Oh wait... Your way of arguing is fun!! Me like!!:laughing:
C\'mon grow up.
Someone call me when this thread gets back nearer to the center of the Bell Curve.
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I got a question for those who would know more about religion than me.
I\'m an atheist. I believe there isn\'t a God of any kind. But let\'s just say I\'m wrong. According to your religion, what would happen to me when I die? I\'m a little curious. Also, what if I became religious, but I picked the wrong religion?
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Originally posted by CygnusXI
Mentally Weak???
Man, your pathetic. I could kick your ass mentally anyday.
Mentally you\'d be scrambled eggs by the time i\'m done. so, shhhhhh. no limits, i\'m a dirty-dog, quick on the draw. :laughing:
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As inspector general I declare peace in this thread.
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CHIZZY:
I think if humans took all the time, money, and energy they waste on religion and spent it trying to actually help people (i.e. cure cancer, feed the starving) the world would be a much better place.
Where did these "cancers" come from in the first place? I\'ll bet that if we traced back every single sickness and disease on this world, we would find that each one of them were caused by people going against God. IMO, without religion we would have killed ourselves off years ago.
And I don\'t know about other churches, but I know the LDS church has a huge fund to help the starving, needy, etc.
Like in the middle east. If they all stopped fighting about God, they would realize they all live in a sh!thole.
If you were in their shoes and knew what they know, you would be fighting along side them. They are fighting over the land. They both think it belongs to them. What if someone came and took something of importance from you? Would you just forget about it, or would you try to get it back? It\'s in our human nature to fight to get something that we believe is rightfully ours. I\'m sure there\'s more to it than that even, but that is reason enough for them to be fighting.
shockwaves:
I\'m an atheist. I believe there isn\'t a God of any kind. But let\'s just say I\'m wrong. According to your religion, what would happen to me when I die? I\'m a little curious. Also, what if I became religious, but I picked the wrong religion?
I\'m sure every religion has a different theory about this, but this is what the LDS church believes. It depends how you live on this world. LIke I said before, you do know right and wrong for the most part (you do have a conscience, and unless you were brought up not knowing right from wrong, your conscience still works), so you will be held accountable for those things that you knowingly do wrong. If you join the wrong church on this world, all hope is not lost if you live worthily within the boundaries of what you know to be right and wrong. In the spirit prison (I talked about this in the other religion thread) you will be taught the things you need to know for salvation. But don\'t be thinking, "cool, I\'ll just wait until I die then I won\'t have to worry about which religion is right." You cannot be saved by just ignoring the truth. Because if you pass up the opportunity on this world you might not have the chance in the next world. So live a worthy life and keep your eyes, ears, and mind open, and you should be fine.
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All your wonderful theories are great except for one thing.
God just doesn\'t exist.
Go ahead and trace all disease back to when you can prove they were caused by "people going against God"... I won\'t hold my breath waiting for your "proof"...
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As much as I love and encourage debate, threads like these end up being 25 pages long, pointless and fruitless. People tend to have very strong opinions on matters such as this and will not change them.
But, here\'s my 2 cp.... errr I mean cents.
>Example: Booming voice just before you commit murder, directly into your soul \'are you SURE you want to do that??\'
Umm wouldn\'t you call that conscience? :)
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Give it a rest people.
Zealots = teh suck!!!!!1111
Whether they are religious or anti-religious zealots. Just believe what you want to believe, and ignore everyone else.
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Go ahead and trace all disease back to when you can prove they were caused by "people going against God"... I won\'t hold my breath waiting for your "proof"...
I wasn\'t trying to prove anything. I was just telling you my opinion on the matter, hence the "I\'ll bet" and the "IMO."
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I do have a lot of questions and I\'ll start em up here. Heck, i might learn something good. :)
First of all, does God punish you for your thoughts? Like for example, say someone really pisses you off and then you let your imaginaion run wild and imagine the most gruesome of punishments that could possibly be inflicted on them. Are you punished for that? I would guess that it\'s just your actions that you are judged upon.
Secondly, if you are unsure if God does exist, and yet live your life by very powerful morals doing nothing but good deeds for others and yourself, how does that reflect upon you? I mean you have no faith and yet you do great in your life for others. How will you be judged for that?
Finally, if stealing is a sin, then am I going to hell for my MP3 collection?
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Can\'t we all just get along?
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First of all, does God punish you for your thoughts? Like for example, say someone really pisses you off and then you let your imaginaion run wild and imagine the most gruesome of punishments that could possibly be inflicted on them. Are you punished for that? I would guess that it\'s just your actions that you are judged upon.
If you think about where bad thoughts come from, it is usually from something not of God. Like if you are in an argument with a friend, you are sinning (causing, or continuing contention is a sin) which might lead to those bad thoughts. And if you are having bad thoughts, that often times leads to bad actions. So yes, you will be judged on your thoughts as well as your actions.
"Exodus 32: 14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
This is referring to when Moses was on top of the mountain getting the 10 commandments, and all of the people at the bottom of the mountain were sinning. God was angry at them, and said "...my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them...", but later repented of his evil thoughts. By that example we can see that we will be judged by our thoughts. I don\'t know how literal that "repenting" was in Gods case (it could have been symbolic of something else), but that is an entirely different discussion on its own. :)
Secondly, if you are unsure if God does exist, and yet live your life by very powerful morals doing nothing but good deeds for others and yourself, how does that reflect upon you? I mean you have no faith and yet you do great in your life for others. How will you be judged for that?
It seems like everyone is trying to skip out on religion on this world. :) Like I said in responce to shockwaves, The LDS belief is that you might get a chance for salvation after this life if you live worthily. But I am not the one who says if you will be saved or not, The Lord is. It probably depends on how much you know about the religions. If you know a lot about them and decide to just ignore them, then my guess would be that your chances of salvation are less likely. And if you perpously try to avoid learning about religion, your chances of salvation would probably be less likely. But I don\'t know for sure because I am not The Lord, and I am not going to be the one judging you (If I was judging you, you would have a free ticket into heaven. :))
It will be interesting to see what other religions believe about having a chance at salvation after death...
Finally, if stealing is a sin, then am I going to hell for my MP3 collection?
I sure hope not, because that would make two of us!
Actually, yes, stealing is wrong. And now I have to reconsider keeping my MP3 collection. Thanks a lot! ;)
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Originally posted by Videoholic
Did noah build a bunch of cages for the animals? I mean wouldn\'t the dinosaur eat the beavers? I know I like to eat beaver.:thepimp:
I think God put a calm over the animals, it\'s in there somewhere.
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Originally posted by Ryu
Secondly, if you are unsure if God does exist, and yet live your life by very powerful morals doing nothing but good deeds for others and yourself, how does that reflect upon you? I mean you have no faith and yet you do great in your life for others. How will you be judged for that?
Doing good and the need to folow morals is an action of the Holy Spirit. The only step someone needs ot make to be a christian would be to believe that.
Oh, and. . .
"5) Christians believe that if you "mess up," you\'re going to hell.
"
Not so, as long as you still believe that Christ has died for the sins you\'ve commited. And before anyone rebukes, being filled with the spirit of Christ, you don\'t want to do bad.
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Like if you are in an argument with a friend, you are sinning (causing, or continuing contention is a sin) which might lead to those bad thoughts.
That\'s a bit confusing. Married couples constantly have contentions, but what happens if they work everything out in the end? Avoiding an arguement is practically impossible, how can that be a sin?
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Okay, since these threads always seem to back God and Christianity into a corner, let\'s do the same with people who believe in evolution.
If all these animals evolved into other animals, why isn\'t evolution still occuring today? How come that ape family at the zoo isn\'t slowly turning into man? Why is it that since the evolution theory has come up, there has been no actual "evolution event"?
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Ryu:
That\'s a bit confusing. Married couples constantly have contentions, but what happens if they work everything out in the end?
That\'s what repentance is for. They are not damned if they repent.
Avoiding an arguement is practically impossible, how can that be a sin?
How do you think God looks at an argument? Does it make him sad, or angry, or instead does he just brush it off like, "Ah, they\'re fighting again. They\'ll get over it."
Contention is caused by the devil, therefore, it is a sin. At least, that\'s my take on it. Feel free to have your own opinion about it.
Also, just because a sin is practically impossible to avoid doesn\'t mean it\'s not a sin. We as humans have to sin. It is impossible for us not to sin in our lifetimes. So does that mean that sinning really isn\'t sinning because it\'s impossible to avoid?
serrano007:
If all these animals evolved into other animals, why isn\'t evolution still occuring today? How come that ape family at the zoo isn\'t slowly turning into man? Why is it that since the evolution theory has come up, there has been no actual "evolution event"?
Because evolution from one kind of animal to another takes millions and millions of years. There is no real way to prove them wrong about evolution just like there is no real way to prove us wrong about religion.
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Are there degrees for repetence? How does one repent for an arguement? What happens if they are a repeat offender?
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Are there degrees for repetence?
Hmmm...kind of. (Again, LDS beliefs. People from other religions, feel free to state what you believe) While many sins can be repented of by taking the Sacriment and never commiting the same sin again (the first "degree" I guess you could say), other sins go beyond that. (second degree) There are some sins that cannot be forgiven unless you talk to your Bishop (the head of each ward in the LDS church). Those sins usually involve immorality. After you have talked to your Bishop, usually multiple times over the timespan of 3-6 months, then you can partake of the sacrement and repent for your sins. There are some sins that cannot be forgiven by Christ, nomatter what (third degree). Murder is one of them. A second offense of adultery is another one. And then the absolute worst sin is denying the holy Ghost (fourth degree). This is a sin that most of us don\'t have to worry about, because in order to commit this sin we have to see God with our own eyes, then deny his existence.
So yes, there are different degrees for repetence I guess.
How does one repent for an arguement?
An argument could be forgiven by partaking of the sacrement and following the steps to repentence. Steps of Repentence:
1. Know and identify the sin
2. Have Godly sorrow for the sin.
3. Stop committing the sin
4. Confess the sin (to your bishop in extreme cases, then to God, or just to God in the less extreme cases.)
5. Partake of the sacrement worthily
6. Know you are forgiven
What happens if they are a repeat offender?
From what I understand, if you do the same sin again, then you have not repented for it. Because part of repentence is never doing the same sin again. But I don\'t know exactly what would happen to them. It is up to Christ to decide if this one problem is enough to keep them out of heaven.
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Originally posted by IronFist
Where did these "cancers" come from in the first place? I\'ll bet that if we traced back every single sickness and disease on this world, we would find that each one of them were caused by people going against God. IMO, without religion we would have killed ourselves off years ago.
And I don\'t know about other churches, but I know the LDS church has a huge fund to help the starving, needy, etc.
Actually, cancer is just cells in your body mutating and reproducing out of control, it\'s non transferrable, rather it\'s genetic. Yes, cancer can occur to people with no cancer in their familiy history. Yes, cancer has happened to very religeous, or right-living people.
It\'s the same way with many diseases, so please... PLEASE don\'t try and blame those things on anti-God thoughts. DON\'T even try to bring up adam/eve-paradise-sin-torment either, because Jesus died for original sin. The slate is clean.
Originally posted by serrano007
Okay, since these threads always seem to back God and Christianity into a corner, let\'s do the same with people who believe in evolution.
If all these animals evolved into other animals, why isn\'t evolution still occuring today? How come that ape family at the zoo isn\'t slowly turning into man? Why is it that since the evolution theory has come up, there has been no actual "evolution event"?
99% of the population who do believe in evolution (which I believe is most of the educated world, with the exception of religeous peoples) don\'t believe in the \'sudden\' evolution theory. Even rushed evolution takes generations of inheritance of good survival charactaristics to assert themselves among the new emerging dominant species. They have seen evolution around a few volcanoes, over a few tens of years, where certain fish have adapted to breath oxygen at higher water temperatures (and they pass on this trait to their offspring, who became dominant).
I think the problem with religeon VS science is the major issue here, however, and unfortunately the churches have a bad track record. Until they see overwhelming evidence, they are loath to accept the \'generally acknowledged\' scientific facts. Remember how long it took them to finally admit the Earth was NOT the center of the universe? They don\'t like to admit that something in the scriptures is wrong, hence they fight like mad until they can not possibly fight anymore.
IMHO eventually the churches will acknowledge evolution and other scientific paradigms, but it will be a long road before it happens.
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So patching things up with the person you got in an arguement with and getting their forgiveness would not be repenting? I mean, in most cases, you admit you\'re wrong, you take responsibility, you apologize, and then you hope for foregivness. That\'s usually how it happens with me and my girlfriend. I\'m wondering if that\'s enough.
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Originally posted by FatalXception
Actually, cancer is just cells in your body mutating and reproducing out of control, it\'s non transferrable, rather it\'s genetic. Yes, cancer can occur to people with no cancer in their familiy history. Yes, cancer has happened to very religeous, or right-living people.
But where did it originate? When? Why? My theory is that if we could trace cancer back to where it started, we would see that it was caused by one person, or a group of people going against God. There is no way to prove this, and I don\'t have anything to base it on except my personal opinion, so there is no point in arguing about it.
DON\'T even try to bring up adam/eve-paradise-sin-torment either, because Jesus died for original sin. The slate is clean.
Actually, one of the 13 articles of faith found in the back of the Book of Mormon triple combination (actually part of the Pearl of Great Price), says, "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression." Many Christian churches believe that we need to repent for Adam and Eve\'s sin. The LDS church is not one of them. I\'ll leave it up to members of other Christian churches to defend that belief, because I really don\'t understand it.
Ryu
So patching things up with the person you got in an arguement with and getting their forgiveness would not be repenting? I mean, in most cases, you admit you\'re wrong, you take responsibility, you apologize, and then you hope for foregivness. That\'s usually how it happens with me and my girlfriend. I\'m wondering if that\'s enough.
While that is a great start (showing humility and love towards your girlfriend), you need to show that same love and humility to the one man who can wipe the slate clean, Jesus Christ. He lived a perfect life, never sinning, and then took upon himself the sins of the world. Then he died on the cross. This was why he came to the earth, to save man kind. Only through him can we be saved.
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I see. That\'s all the questions I have for now. I\'ll have more later. Thank you Ironfist, you\'ve been most helpful. :)
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Sure thing. I\'m looking forward to next time. Oh, and thank you. Tomorrow and Sunday is Conference (an LDS thing that happens twice a year where the prophet and apostles talk to us), and you have really helped me get into the right mind-set. :)
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OH MY GOD (PUN INTENDED!!)
DID I JUST SEE SOMEONE THROW A BIBLE VERSE!!@$F%F!$D#@
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Why do you believe in "God" ?
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Originally posted by IronFist
Because evolution from one kind of animal to another takes millions and millions of years. There is no real way to prove them wrong about evolution just like there is no real way to prove us wrong about religion.
ehh... there are many different scientific edvidences for evolution.
So I really wouldn\'t say: "There is no real way to prove them wrong about evolution just like there is no real way to prove us wrong about religion"
Originally posted by IronFist
But where did it originate? When? Why? My theory is that if we could trace cancer back to where it started, we would see that it was caused by one person, or a group of people going against God. There is no way to prove this, and I don\'t have anything to base it on except my personal opinion, so there is no point in arguing about it.
B]
So you are saying that there was a time when cancer didn\'t excist?
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Bjorn = double poster = Spaminator
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But where did it originate? When? Why? My theory is that if we could trace cancer back to where it started, we would see that it was caused by one person, or a group of people going against God. There is no way to prove this, and I don\'t have anything to base it on except my personal opinion, so there is no point in arguing about it.
Think about Hiroshima and Nakasaki. Also, think about Chernobyl. Doesn\'t it seem that cancer rates have increased a helluva lot since those three events? I don\'t know to tell the truth. I do know that radioactivity and nuclear bombs and accidents can increase cancer in people and mutate the cells. Cancer, IMO, origionated from a genetic mutation inside a persons body. Since it is genetic, he had a chance of transfering it to his/her child and passing it to the childs child and so on. That\'s probably what happened. Then nuclear bombs, testing and accidents helped to mutate more peoples cells in their bodies causing more cancer and more deaths. So we sortof dug ourselves in a hole that we are having trouble digging out of.
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Originally posted by Videoholic
Bjorn = double poster = Spaminator
actually not! ;)
the:
Why do you believe in "God" ?
was directed to any religious person, so I didn\'t want to include it in the other post that was directed to IronFist.
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Originally posted by Bjorn
actually not! ;)
Bah, you know you want to be a spaminator. Just come out of the closet bossman!!!
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ehh... there are many different scientific edvidences for evolution.
So I really wouldn\'t say: "There is no real way to prove them wrong about evolution just like there is no real way to prove us wrong about religion"
Why wouldn\'t you? There really is no way to prove evolution wrong, just like there is no way to prove Religion wrong. That is why this evolution vs Religion conflict still exists. If there was a way to prove one wrong, then I\'m sure someone would have already done so. So I think my original statement was just fine; you can\'t prove either of them wrong.
So you are saying that there was a time when cancer didn\'t excist?
I think Titan hit the nail on the head answering this one. His example of the nuclear bombs is exactly what I was thinking of when I was talking about the cause of cancer. I don\'t know how long cancer has been around, but if it did come onto this world because of us humans using weapons of mass destruction, then that would be a perfect example.
Another example would be AIDS, and even more recently, genital herpes (I hear that\'s getting a lot more common now-a-days). My guess is that God put these diseases onto the earth to punish the sinners, kind of how he put plagues on the earth in ancient Bible times to punish the wicked...
Why do you believe in "God" ?
There are more reasons than I could list, but I\'ll try to name a few:
- I was born into the church. While this is obviously not what I base my testimony of God on, it did get me started in believing in God.
- I like to know that there is something after this world; that we\'re not just going to cease to exist when we die. I love knowing where we came from, why we are here now, where we are going next, and the many little details of those things.
- I have learned through experiences throughout my life that living by the laws of God make life an infinite amount of times more enjoyable. It may be hard sometimes, but most of the time I find life relatively easy compared to people who are addicted to and/or are doing various things not of God.
- The peaceful feelings that I get when I read my scriptures, go to church, or go to seminary confirm to me that God is real. But even more so, God confirms various things that I ask him about to be real through the Holy Ghost.
- When I have a problem, am stressed out, ect, God is always there for me if I ask him to be. He helps me get through hard times in my life.
- I Just recently started to learn about all of the evidences of the Bible as well as the Book of Mormon. Through my pages and pages of research (literally thousands of pages), of both non-LDS and LDS sources, I have learned enough about the recent findings in the world to prove to myself the truth of this gospel and the reality of God. While I already knew that God was real, this research confirmed it to me once again. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind the existence of a "supreme being", our father in heaven.
I have a question for you, (directed to all people who don\'t believe in God), why don\'t you believe in God?
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Another example would be AIDS, and even more recently, genital herpes (I hear that\'s getting a lot more common now-a-days). My guess is that God put these diseases onto the earth to punish the sinners, kind of how he put plagues on the earth in ancient Bible times to punish the wicked...
So what you\'re saying is that AIDS is only in the sinners? But what about all of those people that are good and charitable and they get disease. Your saying that God is punishing them? But aren\'t everyone sinners? Why aren\'t the rest of us punished with AIDs and other diseases?
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Originally posted by Titan
So what you\'re saying is that AIDS is only in the sinners?
Not at all. I am saying that AIDs was probably caused by people going against God. Unfortunately, AIDs is trasmitted by more than sex. It\'s transmitted through birth and through blood (open wounds) too. But IMO, if it wasn\'t for the sinners, AIDs never would have come onto this world because God never would have had a need to put it onto this world.
But what about all of those people that are good and charitable and they get disease. Your saying that God is punishing them?
No, but those innocent people having AIDs is an unfortunate side effect of the sinners.
But aren\'t everyone sinners? Why aren\'t the rest of us punished with AIDs and other diseases?
Why aren\'t the rest of us punished with cancer? It\'s the same idea. IMO AIDs was put onto this earth to punish the people who think sex is a cheap overnight thrill. That is an abomination in the eyes of God. Sex is one of the most sacred things on this world, the process of bringing one of God\'s spirit children and putting it inside of a physical body. The importance of this event is immeasureable.
And cancer was probably brought onto this world in order to scare people out of using nuclear weapons. Many innocent people get cancer, but this probably wouldn\'t have happened if it wasn\'t for us making weapons to kill our fellow man.
And to answer "Why aren\'t the rest of us punished with other diseases?" I would say that the minor sins that most of us commit are not enough for God punish us on this world. Yes, all sins are bad, but I\'m sure you can see the difference between having premarital sex or creating weapons that kill millions of people, and telling a lie. And maybe we were punished for these "lesser" sins, but because of science we now have vaccines and medicine to avoid them. I don\'t really know exactly, which is why I\'ve said that this theory of mine is based on nothing but my opinion alone.
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Originally posted by IronFist
Why wouldn\'t you? There really is no way to prove evolution wrong, just like there is no way to prove Religion wrong. That is why this evolution vs Religion conflict still exists. If there was a way to prove one wrong, then I\'m sure someone would have already done so. So I think my original statement was just fine; you can\'t prove either of them wrong.
So if I say that there are pink space-elephants dancing in a ring far away in the universe, so far away that we never would be able to "see" them. Then this could be true cause it can’t be proven wrong?
I don\'t use that kind of "logic"...
If I hear a statement that someone says is a fact I first think about it to see if it seems logical and rational. I would also need to see evidence that support what this guy is telling me. Hard cold proof of it. If it was a theory I would need to see some facts that supports the theory that makes it look reasonable.
They way you use "logic" you could easily be fooled and taken advantage of.
Originally posted by IronFist
I think Titan hit the nail on the head answering this one. His example of the nuclear bombs is exactly what I was thinking of when I was talking about the cause of cancer. I don\'t know how long cancer has been around, but if it did come onto this world because of us humans using weapons of mass destruction, then that would be a perfect example.
Another example would be AIDS, and even more recently, genital herpes (I hear that\'s getting a lot more common now-a-days). My guess is that God put these diseases onto the earth to punish the sinners, kind of how he put plagues on the earth in ancient Bible times to punish the wicked...
.................................
And cancer was probably brought onto this world in order to scare people out of using nuclear weapons. Many innocent people get cancer, but this probably wouldn\'t have happened if it wasn\'t for us making weapons to kill our fellow man.
Well, it looks like the earliest medical records of cancer diseases date back to 2500 B.C.
So that would wipe out the nuclear weapons, right?
"My guess is that God put these diseases onto the earth to punish the sinners"
No comment on that one.....
Originally posted by IronFist
I have a question for you, (directed to all people who don\'t believe in God), why don\'t you believe in God?
1. I haven\'t been brainwashed with that kind of things as a kid.
2. As I said before:
If I hear a statement that someone says is a fact I first think about it to see if it seems logical and rational. I would also need to see evidence that support what this guy is telling me. Hard cold proof of it. If it is a theory I would need to see some facts that supports the theory that makes it reasonable.
I didn\'t have this kind of thinking when I was a kid and if my parents had brainwashed me with religious teachings then I most certainly would be a believer. However, as I would come older and wiser and start using a thinking described above I would probably question what my parents told me as a child and change my mind. Atleast I hope I would ;)
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Originally posted by Bjorn
So you are saying that there was a time when cancer didn\'t excist?
Originally posted by IronFist
Not at all. I am saying that AIDs was probably caused by people going against God. Unfortunately, AIDs is trasmitted by more than sex. It\'s transmitted through birth and through blood (open wounds) too. But IMO, if it wasn\'t for the sinners, AIDs never would have come onto this world because God never would have had a need to put it onto this world.
Well, if you actually look at what cancer is, I don\'t think it would fit this arguement at all. Cancer is what happens when a group of cells in your body mutate and take on abnormal properties. They then multiply out of control, and spread into other tissue to disrupt the normal functioning of some part of the body. Cancer isn\'t transmitted from person to person. People aren\'t born with it, people can\'t get it from anywhere. It is something that developes on its own in an individual. From a religious standpoint, how could that fit in as a plague? It developes individually in different people, and doesn\'t occur in a group, but in scattered individuals. Would that mean that only sinful people get cancer, since it starts anew within each person? I\'d be curious as to how that is explained.
Originally posted by IronFist
No, but those innocent people having AIDs is an unfortunate side effect of the sinners.
Out of curiosity, what do you think God would call that? Collateral damage?
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Originally posted by IronFist
I have a question for you, (directed to all people who don\'t believe in God), why don\'t you believe in God?
When I look at religion, I see nothing more than superstition. Religious people talk about how religion brings good to the world. I look back, and I see the Crusades, the Inquisitions, the centuries of religious persecution and senseless killing along religous lines. It seems to me that religion is not a good thing in our world, but rather a major problem. I don\'t want to contribute to this problem.
A was raised to think for myself. Both of my parents are Atheists, as am I, but I was never discouraged from looking into any other religions. When I really thought about it though, it seemed completely absurd to think that there could be a God. It just didn\'t seem logical to me. One all powerful being that created everything, I just don\'t buy it. I have never seen any sound evidence to point to the fact that there is a God. Infact, I\'ve never seen much reasonable evidence at all. I have, however, seen evidence that parts of the Bible, to focus on one area of religion, are wrong. There is substantial evidence of evolution, for example. Besides, to go back to my original point, if a religion, such as Christianity, were to be right, then how do you explain how so many of the worst human caused events in history were done by the Church? It just doesn\'t work for me.
By the way, if there were any one religion I could even see a shred of credibility in, it\'s Judaism. Just felt like sharing that.
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There is no way for me to prove my theory, and there is no way for you to prove it wrong (because you don\'t know the actual cause of Cancer, or AIDs, or diseases in general). But you win on this one -- I\'ll drop that "All diseases were put on this world because of the sinners" theory, because there really isn\'t any reason for me to believe that is the case.
Bjorn:
If I hear a statement that someone says is a fact I first think about it to see if it seems logical and rational. I would also need to see evidence that support what this guy is telling me. Hard cold proof of it. If it is a theory I would need to see some facts that supports the theory that makes it reasonable.
So what exactly are you basing your "the earliest medical records of cancer diseases date back to 2500 B.C."[/color] statistic on? Could it be the "seven papyri, discovered and deciphered late in the 19th century"? (link (http://training.seer.cancer.gov/module_cancer_disease/unit1_historic_perspective.html)) So you are willing to believe ancient documents recently found only when they work in your favor to prove your point, but you choose to ignore the findings that prove many of the stories in the Bible actually did happen? Or did you just not know about those findings? The Smithsonian Department of Anthropology says this about the Bible:
Much of the Bible, in particular the historical books of the old testament, are as accurate historical documents as any that we have from antiquity and are in fact more accurate than many of the Egyptian, Mesopotamian, or Greek histories. These Biblical records can be and are used as are other ancient documents in archeological work. For the most part, historical events described took place and the peoples cited really existed. This is not to say that names of all peoples and places mentioned can be identified today, or that every event as reported in the historical books happened exactly as stated.
If the Bible is used in archeological work, then that means that there is at least some truth to what it says. (link (http://agards-bible-timeline.com/q9_historical_proof_bible.html) -- go here to see many findings that show the authenticity of the Bible)
So I again ask the question, are you willing to accept some ancient documents as the truth while ignoring others?
I didn\'t have this kind of thinking when I was a kid and if my parents had brainwashed me with religious teachings then I most certainly would be a believer. However, as I would come older and wiser and start using a thinking described above I would probably question what my parents told me as a child and change my mind. Atleast I hope I would.
But what if you found, on your own, that what your parents had been teaching you your whole life was indeed the truth? Wouldn\'t you have a different opinion then? Anyways, all of this "if I was a kid and if I was brainwashed" stuff is pointless, because that isn\'t how it happened in your life. In order to not believe in something, don\'t you have to have knowledge of what that "something" is first? Otherwise, wouldn\'t it just be blind faith that God doesn\'t exist?
shockwaves:
When I look at religion, I see nothing more than superstition. Religious people talk about how religion brings good to the world. I look back, and I see the Crusades, the Inquisitions, the centuries of religious persecution and senseless killing along religous lines. It seems to me that religion is not a good thing in our world, but rather a major problem. I don\'t want to contribute to this problem.
If you truely believe that religion is a bad thing, then you are being ignorant. This same thing was brought up in the other religion thread by Bossiman, and was refuted by AlteredBeast on the page after (link (http://www.psx2central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18752&perpage=25&pagenumber=14)). Religions have been the cause of quite a few wars, but not nearly as many wars as the non-religious disputes. What is the cause of more wars, Religion, or land, oil, money, freedom, etc?
Also, many religions bring good throughout the world with charity and service. I don\'t see how you could see this as a bad thing.
When I really thought about it though, it seemed completely absurd to think that there could be a God. It just didn\'t seem logical to me. One all powerful being that created everything, I just don\'t buy it.
So you would prefer to believe that this all started with a "big bang" that no one knows how or why it happened, that every creature evolved from one cell, and somehow the cell grew into what we are today -- probably the most complex thing on this world (if you\'ve ever really thought about it, dang, our bodies are so complex!), instead of believing that this was all created by God? I don\'t see how that\'s any less far fetched. :p But to each his own.
I have, however, seen evidence that parts of the Bible, to focus on one area of religion, are wrong.
Some versions of the Bible have been altered throughout history, and others are pretty accurate (I think even Troglodyte can agree that some of the Bibles have been altered significantly). First, which version of the Bible are you talking about. And second, what in the Bible have you found to be wrong?
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just thought I\'d point something out, which no-one picked up on
Originally posted by Solid Snake 88
There are more Christians in the world than non-Christians.
err...sure
IronFist
For someone to really and trully believe in God, they should have made their own mind up about it. Why then, are more than 90% of religious people the same religion as their parents?
Your religion depends on where you are born, if you were born in the middle east, you would most likely be born Muslim. All the people born in the middle east and into Islam, does this mean they are born into wrong?
No, but those innocent people having AIDs is an unfortunate side effect of the sinners.
so good people are expendable to him? If there is a god, that would mean he would be killing people directly, honest people. Surely he would not do that if he was a rightoues god.
There is not a single piece of evidence that suggests that God exists. You cannot say faith is proof.
I don\'t beleive in God, but I live my life in the best way I can and try to be kind and forgiving, and to broach everything with an open mind. Am I a bad person, am I going to hell? According to most religions yes I am despite anything I may have done. Does God need me to worship him so that I may gain entry to heaven, does God bargain?
When you die, there is nothing. Sarx, soma and pneuma (Gnostic: Flesh, Body and Spirit) all die. You will never know your wrong, and you waste your life in a trivial pursuit of something higher.
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only takes one thing to get you into heaven
accepting jesus as yer savior, thats it
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even if you\'ve commited mortal sins?
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yes
god is all forgiving, remember?
you think cain went to hell?
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no, I don\'t think he did
he died. His body went into the ground. Nothing more, nothing less. No heaven, no hell, nothing.
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you ll change yer mind on yer death bead, at the very latest
charles darwin did
dont think im some lunatic
im not very religious at all, im a non practicing catholic
but to NOT believe in anything, thats just absurd
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I disagree with a couple of things said above.
1. I believe that Cain was the first man to "deny the Holy Ghost," the worst possible sin a man could ever commit. He knew God and talked with God, and in the end, he killed his brother and lied to God. He is not going to heaven. Why would he? What has he done to deserve such a reward? He is going to the worst possible place, the Outer Darkness, even below the Telestial Kingdom, where he will be miserable for eternity.
2. Believing in Christ is not enough. You also have to follow his example and strive to be as perfect as you could possibly be (as well as a few other things that are required on this life like Baptism and Eternal Marriage). No, you will never be completely perfect in this life, but if you try as hard as you can to be as good as possible, Christ\'s grace will get you the rest of the way to heaven.
I don\'t understand completely though. What exactly do you mean by "only takes one thing to get you into heaven, accepting jesus as yer savior, thats it." Does that mean you don\'t have to repent on this world, because Jesus already paid for your sins in full? And does that mean you can go out and do whatever you want, and as long as you say you believe in Christ you will go to heaven? If so, then that kind of gets rid of the purpose of church, doesn\'t it?
Disc 2,
There is not a single piece of evidence that suggests that God exists. You cannot say faith is proof.
Nor have I. Faith is not proof. Faith is faith. ;)
I don\'t beleive in God, but I live my life in the best way I can and try to be kind and forgiving, and to broach everything with an open mind. Am I a bad person, am I going to hell?
No. My church believes if you do live this life worthily, but you never accept the LDS church, you will go to the Terestial Kingdom (the middle kingdom). Is this heaven? By every other Christian church\'s definition even the Telestial Kingdom (the lowest kingdom not including the Outer Darkness) is heaven, so yes, I guess you would go to "heaven." But by our churches standards, where we know you can do even better, this is hell. Everything but the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom is hell because in those lesser Kingdoms you do not have the ability to progress. You will be stuck forever knowing you could have done better.
Does God need me to worship him so that I may gain entry to heaven, does God bargain?
God doesn\'t need you to worship him, but because he is your father, it probably makes him sad if you don\'t. IMO, you are only cheating yourself if you don\'t have a direct one-on-one relationship with God.
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Originally posted by mm
you ll change yer mind on yer death bead, at the very latest
charles darwin did
dont think im some lunatic
im not very religious at all, im a non practicing catholic
but to NOT believe in anything, thats just absurd
the fact that darwin did is heavily disputed
and I beleive what has been proved. I beleive in science, and the strive for new knowledge, instead of clinging to the old. I want to know the truth, not some superstitions made up thousands of years ago when people did not know better.
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Originally posted by IronFist
There is no way for me to prove my theory, and there is no way for you to prove it wrong (because you don\'t know the actual cause of Cancer, or AIDs, or diseases in general). But you win on this one -- I\'ll drop that "All diseases were put on this world because of the sinners" theory, because there really isn\'t any reason for me to believe that is the case.
Thank you for letting me "win" that one ;)
Oh, and what if I say that some dinosaur fossils found have injuries similar to forms of bone cancer?
Hmmm...
Originally posted by IronFist
So you are willing to believe ancient documents recently found only when they work in your favor to prove your point, but you choose to ignore the findings that prove many of the stories in the Bible actually did happen? Or did you just not know about those findings? The Smithsonian Department of Anthropology says this about the Bible..........
....................
So I again ask the question, are you willing to accept some ancient documents as the truth while ignoring others?
I’m not willing to believe any ancient documents. But I can believe ancient documents that fit this:
If I hear a statement that someone says is a fact I first think about it to see if it seems logical and rational. I would also need to see evidence that support what this guy is telling me. Hard cold proof of it. If it is a theory I would need to see some facts that supports the theory that makes it reasonable.
Especially things that said one thing then (i.e. medical cancer records) and the same thing now but with documented proof.
I do recognize that the Bible has archeological correctness. Never said anything about that...
But what does that prove?
If I wrote a book 2000 years ago, writing about the city I lived in, about my country, and then I would write how purple lions jumped on a fire to make me eat them. Would that prove that purple lions actually cooked them selves so I could eat them? :)
Originally posted by IronFist
But what if you found, on your own, that what your parents had been teaching you your whole life was indeed the truth? Wouldn\'t you have a different opinion then?
Like people who found out the world was flat? Or like a person who on their own found out that a specific woman was a witch and then burned her alive?
If I found out something of my own, for an example let’s say I found out that plants need the sun in order to live. To make that a fact I must be able to prove my finding with evidence. Else I would not be able to tell it as a fact to another person.
Originally posted by mm
you ll change yer mind on yer death bead, at the very latest
charles darwin did
dont think im some lunatic
im not very religious at all, im a non practicing catholic
but to NOT believe in anything, thats just absurd
Charles Darwin changed his mind?
Oh, that’s right, there was this religious (fanatic? ;) ) woman claiming that... hmmm... ;)
For me it is absurd to believe there is anything after death. :)
Why? (see above on my way of thinking)
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I didn\'t read any of this last page, so Im not sure if anyone posted this yet.
If Evolution is true, and you say that it takes MILLIONS of years, where are the half-man, half-ape hybrids? Where are the lizard-birds, or the furry fish?
If it were true, there would be a sign that it was working. Things would be in the middle of the change between one animal to the next. No signs of such life have been found.
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Originally posted by -____-
I didn\'t read any of this last page, so Im not sure if anyone posted this yet.
If Evolution is true, and you say that it takes MILLIONS of years, where are the half-man, half-ape hybrids? Where are the lizard-birds, or the furry fish?
If it were true, there would be a sign that it was working. Things would be in the middle of the change between one animal to the next. No signs of such life have been found.
This is the only example I can think of and its rather stupid to boot, but... look at young females for instance, for some reason they are starting to bloom bigger and earlier than in the last 20 years.
I remember when I was in grammer school, no chicks were really developed, now..I see 7th grade girls with D-cups, and they aren\'t fat either.
SO now after you all are done laughing,(i warned you that it was weak), Thats the only thing I can think of right now.
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It\'s what the USDA puts in the beef that increases their bust size. It\'s some type of growth hormones or something. I forget, there was a study on it.
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luckee : Now that\'s what I call survival of the fittest :)
Originally posted by IronFist
If you truely believe that religion is a bad thing, then you are being ignorant. This same thing was brought up in the other religion thread by Bossiman, and was refuted by AlteredBeast on the page after (link. Religions have been the cause of quite a few wars, but not nearly as many wars as the non-religious disputes. What is the cause of more wars, Religion, or land, oil, money, freedom, etc?
Also, many religions bring good throughout the world with charity and service. I don\'t see how you could see this as a bad thing.
I truely do believe that ignorance is a bad thing, and I don\'t think that\'s an ignorant view at all. I have backed it up with facts, and can argue against all facts presented to the contrary. Another thing, it probably is true that religion has caused less wars than conflicts over land of freedom. That doesn\'t go against my arguement at all. I said religion is bad, not that it is the only thing that is bad. Sure there are other things in the world that cause conflicts or bad results. All I\'m saying is I think religion is one of these things.
Also, with your charity example, this proves nothing to me either. This just shows that there are good people who are religious, and care about others. In fact, I\'d guess that the vast majority of people, religious or non religious are "good people", and do things like this at some point. There are plenty of charitable organizations not related to religion too. It isn\'t the religion I credit with the charity, but the people practicing it.
As for Bossieman\'s post in that other topic, that isn\'t what I\'m trying to say at all, and I do not agree with what he said.
Can we blaim religion for what happened with the WTC?
Can we blaim religion for women in Africa having their clitoris cut away?
Can we blaim religion for people blowing up their self in crowded areas so a lot of people die?
Can we blaim religon for people dying because their religion says that they can´t use certain medicines?
Can we blaim Religion for sciencepeople being killed for their belives and theories?
Can we blaim relgion for the death of thousends of Afhanistan women and children?
He said religion can be blamed for all of this. I say religion can be blamed for none of this. These can be blamed on stupid or ignorant people who happen to be religious. Just because someone is religious, doesn\'t mean that\'s what causes them to do stupid things. I do think religion can be blamed for other events, such as the crusades, the inquisition, etc. I still stand by my opinion that more bad has come from religion than good. I\'ve given facts to back my arguement, which you simply discounted. You have given me unrelated or barely related facts to back the opposing view. Until you give me something a bit more credible, I couldn\'t see your side as having any merit.
So you would prefer to believe that this all started with a "big bang" that no one knows how or why it happened, that every creature evolved from one cell, and somehow the cell grew into what we are today -- probably the most complex thing on this world (if you\'ve ever really thought about it, dang, our bodies are so complex!), instead of believing that this was all created by God? I don\'t see how that\'s any less far fetched. But to each his own.
Do you realize what you are saying. LIke, actually take time to look at your belief. You believe that some devine man or creature or whatever existed before anything else, and then created everything. Tell me, when did God start to exist. Was he just there forever? If so, why is it any less possible that the universe has just been here forever, and there is a cycle of solar systems and galaxies being created and destroyed, life evolving on most until finally coming to an end? Sounds more logical to me. There is scientific theory behind that. Behind your arguement is little more than blind faith. The key word in that: blind.
Some versions of the Bible have been altered throughout history, and others are pretty accurate (I think even Troglodyte can agree that some of the Bibles have been altered significantly). First, which version of the Bible are you talking about. And second, what in the Bible have you found to be wrong?
I don\'t know my versions of the bible well, so I\'m not entirely sure what versions or translations I\'m thinking of. Let me try to look into this a bit, and get back to you
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Originally posted by luckee
This is the only example I can think of and its rather stupid to boot, but... look at young females for instance, for some reason they are starting to bloom bigger and earlier than in the last 20 years.
I remember when I was in grammer school, no chicks were really developed, now..I see 7th grade girls with D-cups, and they aren\'t fat either.
SO now after you all are done laughing,(i warned you that it was weak), Thats the only thing I can think of right now.
AHAHAHA...heh, I\'m j/k. But, this is NOT evolution. I wouldn\'t want women to turn into some other creature, and I\'m sure you wouldn\'t either. Creatures and humans can ADAPT, but there is a huge difference between ADAPTATION and EVOLUTION. You stated an example of adaptation.
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Would you care to explain the difference to us? :)
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Bjorn:
I do recognize that the Bible has archeological correctness. Never said anything about that...
But what does that prove?
If I wrote a book 2000 years ago, writing about the city I lived in, about my country, and then I would write how purple lions jumped on a fire to make me eat them. Would that prove that purple lions actually cooked them selves so I could eat them?
But the Bible is not like that. It was not written by just one man, but instead was written by many people hundreds of years apart from each other who all talked about different experiences that point to there being a God. Either (1) these people who wrote the book over a time span of thousands of years were really secluded from the rest of the world, and they were all brainwashed into believing the same false things, or (2) the many people who wrote the different sections of the Bible were really lucky to not contradict each other (at least, in the correctly translated versions of the Bible) or (3) the religious things in the Bible really did happen.
Shockwave:
I do think religion can be blamed for other events, such as the crusades, the inquisition, etc. I still stand by my opinion that more bad has come from religion than good. I\'ve given facts to back my arguement, which you simply discounted. You have given me unrelated or barely related facts to back the opposing view. Until you give me something a bit more credible, I couldn\'t see your side as having any merit.
Wait, you have given facts to back your argument of "religion has caused more bad then good"? I don\'t think so. All you have done is named a couple of bad events that were caused by religion, which happened hundreds of years ago I might add, then completely ignored the good things that religion has done for this world, saying something like (paraphrasing with my own little twist) "the people were responsible for those good acts, not the religion that brought them up to be that way." The fact that you cannot see the good that religion brings is enough reason for me to believe that you do not know enough about religion.
Another problem is that you are grouping "religion" into one giant category and saying that religion is bad. That\'s like me saying I think all humans are extremely evil because some humans have done really bad things, or all video games are bad because one person who played his N64 regularly for 8 hours a day died while playing. The truth is, some religions have not caused wars and other problems with the world. The LDS church is a great example of that.
Also, the LDS church (the church I am a member of) believes that no church was true between the time that the apostles were killed (about 100 AD), to the 1820s when Christ\'s church was restored onto this earth. Surely you can\'t blame my church for the evil acts that happened at the time when we believe no true church was on the earth, can you?
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Originally posted by -____-
I didn\'t read any of this last page, so Im not sure if anyone posted this yet.
If Evolution is true, and you say that it takes MILLIONS of years, where are the half-man, half-ape hybrids? Where are the lizard-birds, or the furry fish?
If it were true, there would be a sign that it was working. Things would be in the middle of the change between one animal to the next. No signs of such life have been found.
thats stupidly ignorant. :p
How can we tell if something is in between changing from one animal to the next, because we don\'t know what the next animal is. Humans have changed form apes, and presumably still changing. Homo-erectus for example, half way between man and apes. Then they developed into homo-sapiens, which are probably slowly developing towards something else. But we don\'t think we\'re in the middle of the change, because "we\'ve always been like this"
if there was wide spread nuclear war, and some humans had developed a way to live freely despite nuclear radiation, all the other humans would slowly die out and these humans would become dominent (thats a very fast example, and unlikely to happen but you get my drift) and thats evolution.
1 (http://www.ukonline.net/dvd/review/blueplanet/images/BluePlanet03.jpg) 2 (http://a2040.g.akamaitech.net/7/2040/34/9f251aee63f06d/dsc.discovery.com/convergence/blueplanet/photo/gallery2/cerianthus_thumb.jpg)
these animals havn\'t evolved to suit their habitat? I suggest you read up on evolution before making claims that it\'s false :)
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Well I missed this one when it first started but here is my 2 cents:
Debate questions,
1) Christians think God is all powerful
2) Christians think God loves every human on the face of the earth
3) Christians think God wants to "save" us (whatever that means)
4) Christians believe in hell, and view Satan as the landlord of this institution.
5) Christians believe that if you "mess up," you\'re going to hell.
6) Christians believe that Satan tries to lure otherwise good individuals into his "traps," taking said individual away from the "good" side.
Debate answers,
1) Yes, God is all powerful.
2) Yes, God loves every human.
3) Yes, God does want to save us from the eternal damnation that has been created for Satan. Hell was not ment to be for us, but Satan will do everything in his power to bring you there with him when he is cast into the lake of fire.
4) Hell does exist. But no, Satan is not the "landlord" of this instatution. God is lord of this earth and he has allowed Satan to roam the earth during his last days.
5) If any "christian" said that then you have God\'s permision to slap him. It says in the Bible that we as brothers in the body of Christ need to hold eachother accountable for our actions. Saying that statement is not truth and should be taken as deception. Jesus Christ came to love and save us. He cared for everyone he came in contact with. To be called a Christian is to be Christ-like. Get the point?
6) Satan has already "lured" many people into believing that if they are "good" they will go to heaven. The truth of it all though is that if you accept Jesus as your personal savior and confess your a sinner you are saved and thus have a seat in heaven. It will then be a joy to do good and not for the sake of your own well being. You will find it much more rewarding to be good and do good to others.
7) Oh yeah, there was no seven.
;)
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Originally posted by IronFist
Wait, you have given facts to back your argument of "religion has caused more bad then good"? I don\'t think so. All you have done is named a couple of bad events that were caused by religion, which happened hundreds of years ago I might add, then completely ignored the good things that religion has done for this world, saying something like (paraphrasing with my own little twist) "the people were responsible for those good acts, not the religion that brought them up to be that way." The fact that you cannot see the good that religion brings is enough reason for me to believe that you do not know enough about religion.
You want a more modern example of religious conflict, I could give you one. I was just using some of the most well known and infamous wrongdoings of western religion. I haven\'t given too much in the way of facts to point to what is wrong with religion, because I am approaching this arguement from a standpoint of defending my views, and not so much attacking yours. I started in this topic criticizing only the idea that diseases such as cancer were a way to punish sinners. Then, I saw the question asking non religious people why they don\'t believe in God. I answered that, and am only trying to explain my reasoning behind that. If you want me to seriously attack religious views, I\'d rather not do that in this topic. That always gets out of hand. Anyone is free to believe whatever they choose to believe. I\'m simply trying to get across the way I view things.
Another problem is that you are grouping "religion" into one giant category and saying that religion is bad. That\'s like me saying I think all humans are extremely evil because some humans have done really bad things, or all video games are bad because one person who played his N64 regularly for 8 hours a day died while playing. The truth is, some religions have not caused wars and other problems with the world. The LDS church is a great example of that.
There was a reason for that. As an Atheist, I believe all religions are wrong. That means that religion does nothing but add ignorance to the world, no matter what religion it is. It isn\'t like any of the examples you gave really. It\'s more like if I were to attack video gaming as being evil, and I grouped X-Box, PS2, and Gamecube together. A religion is a religion, and all of them are wrong. That\'s what I believe at least. There aren\'t different degrees of wrong, they are all just simply wrong.
Also, the LDS church (the church I am a member of) believes that no church was true between the time that the apostles were killed (about 100 AD), to the 1820s when Christ\'s church was restored onto this earth. Surely you can\'t blame my church for the evil acts that happened at the time when we believe no true church was on the earth, can you?
That\'s why I never attacked a certain church. I attacked religion as a whole. But honestly, I doubt your church is really any better. At the very least, it is working to spread an ignorant point of view, and therefor is doing no good.
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Originally posted by Disc 2
thats stupidly ignorant. :p
How can we tell if something is in between changing from one animal to the next, because we don\'t know what the next animal is. Humans have changed form apes, and presumably still changing. Homo-erectus for example, half way between man and apes. Then they developed into homo-sapiens, which are probably slowly developing towards something else. But we don\'t think we\'re in the middle of the change, because "we\'ve always been like this"
if there was wide spread nuclear war, and some humans had developed a way to live freely despite nuclear radiation, all the other humans would slowly die out and these humans would become dominent (thats a very fast example, and unlikely to happen but you get my drift) and thats evolution.
1 (http://www.ukonline.net/dvd/review/blueplanet/images/BluePlanet03.jpg) 2 (http://a2040.g.akamaitech.net/7/2040/34/9f251aee63f06d/dsc.discovery.com/convergence/blueplanet/photo/gallery2/cerianthus_thumb.jpg)
these animals havn\'t evolved to suit their habitat? I suggest you read up on evolution before making claims that it\'s false :)
That picture is still a fish. It\'s not a different animal. It\'s ADAPTATION! It adapted to its environment so it could live there. It did not, however, grow wings, feathers, and hollow bones and fly.
I don\'t FEEL like a monkey, do you? I still have not seen a species that is a man-ape (where he is in the middle of evolution between ape and man). There are men. There are apes. There are no in-betweens. How could you be so \'stupidly ignorant\' by believing this nonsense?
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I haven\'t given too much in the way of facts to point to what is wrong with religion, because I am approaching this arguement from a standpoint of defending my views, and not so much attacking yours...I saw the question asking non religious people why they don\'t believe in God. I answered that, and am only trying to explain my reasoning behind that.
But the question wasn\'t why don\'t you believe in religion, it was why don\'t you believe in God. Many people on these forums choose to not believe in a religion yet they still believe that God is real. In the first part of your post that I quoted and argued against before, you were trying to use problems that religion causes to explain why you don\'t believe in God. Instead of seeing that as an explanation of why you don\'t believe in God, I saw it as an attack on religions. I\'m sure you can see the confusion on my part.
The last paragraph of your last post that I replied to, and the last paragraph in your post before that one showed your beliefs of God, so thank you for you reply on that matter.
I doubt your church is really any better. At the very least, it is working to spread an ignorant point of view, and therefor is doing no good.
You "doubt" my church is any better, then you claim it is the one spreading "an ignorant point of view." Don\'t you see something wrong with that statement?
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I’m beginning to think that despite it’s religious over tones, this thread is no more than a keen attempt at raising post counts…
Hmmmmm…
STOP THE SPAM!!!:mad:
If not for yourselves then do it for the children;)
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Wow, I only have two other posts in this thread so far. . . a first for me.
I think we should space out the religion threads more. As we try to be specific, it goes all broad in scope again. We need more "cool-off time," That way we can study more on the previous religion thread, and be more educated in the next. I say once a thread dies (even though SOME people can\'t let it die. . . you know who you are) we should give a month before the next one.
Okay, actually, I\'m just trying to find a way that I can get out of posting in this thread w/o being a wuss (too late!). I\'m tired of all this, but the mormons seem to be going strong, and that\'s actually a good thing. I somethime wish I could keep going, but my head hurts. Oh wait, that\'s my hangover (j/k).
The End?
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Originally posted by Troglodyte
The End?
:eek:
I only wish this were the end of these threads. I agree with ya on one thing Trog, we need a break between threads like this.
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Originally posted by -____-
That picture is still a fish. It\'s not a different animal. It\'s ADAPTATION! It adapted to its environment so it could live there. It did not, however, grow wings, feathers, and hollow bones and fly.
I don\'t FEEL like a monkey, do you? I still have not seen a species that is a man-ape (where he is in the middle of evolution between ape and man). There are men. There are apes. There are no in-betweens. How could you be so \'stupidly ignorant\' by believing this nonsense?
the in between died out...the homo-erectus. They were simply not suited and died out, but there is proof that they existed.
Your theory of adaption is evolution. We are "adapted" from apes.
The fish wouldn\'t have "grown wings and flied" because this particular evolution wouldn\'t be beneficial to it. It evolved so that it emmits light underwater, thats pretty spectacular. There is also rather significant proof that all life orignially came from the sea, and so therefore "fish" did evolve into birds with wings :)
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Not at all. I am saying that AIDs was probably caused by people going against God. Unfortunately, AIDs is trasmitted by more than sex. It\'s transmitted through birth and through blood (open wounds) too. But IMO, if it wasn\'t for the sinners, AIDs never would have come onto this world because God never would have had a need to put it onto this world.
So your saying is that God put AIDS on the earth for people who CHOSE (sex to me is a choice of a couple. In the ice age, did people marry to have sex? No) to have sex before and that think that God is non existent? I think they have traced AIDs back to the time when primates were the dominant species ..................er.........millions of years ago. It was evolution that altered genes (like all viruses) and made it attack the body.
No, but those innocent people having AIDs is an unfortunate side effect of the sinners.
Um......ok then. Moving on since this is opposite to what you just said.......
Why aren\'t the rest of us punished with cancer?
Just so you know. I know you think that all of disease was God, scientifically, cancer is a genetic mutation in the cells in specific parts of the body.
And cancer was probably brought onto this world in order to scare people out of using nuclear weapons. Many innocent people get cancer, but this probably wouldn\'t have happened if it wasn\'t for us making weapons to kill our fellow man.
Nuclear power is the cleanest and safest (off topic, i know) and endless source of power. As for nuclear weapons and cancer, nuclear (dammit, lost the word. Just put in a blank so you know that its nuclear something) ______ mutates the cells in the body if not properly stored or radioactive gas is released. The teams at the Chernobyl plant after it exploded, most of them either died from cancer or currently have terrible cancer due to the radioactivity (THATS THE WORD I WAS LOOKING FOR!).
Iron, are you one of those people that say that 9/11 was God\'s way of showing us that we\'re evil? Do you believe in evolution?
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Originally posted by Disc 2
the in between died out...the homo-erectus. They were simply not suited and died out, but there is proof that they existed.
Your theory of adaption is evolution. We are "adapted" from apes.
The fish wouldn\'t have "grown wings and flied" because this particular evolution wouldn\'t be beneficial to it. It evolved so that it emmits light underwater, thats pretty spectacular. There is also rather significant proof that all life orignially came from the sea, and so therefore "fish" did evolve into birds with wings :)
But the fish is still a fish...right? It will always be a fish. We will always be human. We always have. There is NO proof of an \'in-between\'.
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Out of curiosity, why is it always evolution that has to prove its point? What hard evidence is there for creationism?
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Titan, you\'re bringing back a topic that I already admitted to being ignorant about. I was basing my theory off of nothing, and I should have never even said it.
Iron, are you one of those people that say that 9/11 was God\'s way of showing us that we\'re evil?
Heck no. I\'m one of those people who believes that this was bound to happen sooner or later in order to go along with the revelations in the Bible and Book of Mormon, and am one who believes that it is only going to get worse before it gets better.
Do you believe in evolution?
I haven\'t thrown out the idea, but I haven\'t agreed with it either. I do know that we are sons and daughters of God, and that we were created in his image. I do not know exactly how we came to be, whether Adam actually was the first fully evolved human, or whether Adam came directly from God in the blink of an eye and life began there. I am leaning more towards directly from God and NOT evolution. But again, it isn\'t important to my salvation, so why should I or anyone else for that matter waste our time worrying about it?
Troglodyte:
Okay, actually, I\'m just trying to find a way that I can get out of posting in this thread w/o being a wuss (too late!). I\'m tired of all this, but the mormons seem to be going strong, and that\'s actually a good thing. I somethime wish I could keep going, but my head hurts. Oh wait, that\'s my hangover (j/k).
Don\'t worry about it Troglodyte. Although your input will be missed, you won\'t look like a wuss if you don\'t post here. Rest up and be ready to join in later in this thread, or ready to start a new thread altogether if this one dies. :)
Oh, and it\'s just Mormon (singular). Altered has bailed on these forums (for the most part) and now only comes here once in a blue moon. I don\'t know if he even reads off topic anymore. But I wouldn\'t say that the Mormons are going strong without giving credit to the many people here with strong opinions and even stronger debating skills, many of whom having far superior debating skills than my own. Hopefully the battle will continue with even more controversial and very debatable statements. :)
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Has anybody ever read the last book in the Bible?
Revelations has some good stuff in it. Read it if you want to get a better idea as to what most Christians believe.;)
(For those that do not have a Bible:)
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?language=english&version=kjv
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Originally posted by luckee
5) Christians believe that if you "mess up," you\'re going to hell.
I have to disagree with that one. It\'s a struggle everyday to live as a Christian, just b/c you make one sin or fall short of what you knew you should do does not mean you are "in the red" until you do something good again.
1 bad act does not make you a non-Christian and 1 good act does not make you a Christian. Your motives and your heart determine that and where you will spend eternity. Which is a good thing b/c my mouth goes off when I\'m in traffic.
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Originally posted by Troglodyte
Wow, I only have two other posts in this thread so far. . . a first for me.
I think we should space out the religion threads more. As we try to be specific, it goes all broad in scope again. We need more "cool-off time," That way we can study more on the previous religion thread, and be more educated in the next. I say once a thread dies (even though SOME people can\'t let it die. . . you know who you are) we should give a month before the next one.
Okay, actually, I\'m just trying to find a way that I can get out of posting in this thread w/o being a wuss (too late!). I\'m tired of all this, but the mormons seem to be going strong, and that\'s actually a good thing. I somethime wish I could keep going, but my head hurts. Oh wait, that\'s my hangover (j/k).
The End?
So where does self control come into play? No states that all must participate in a religion thread everytime its posted. IMO, no better than street racers that don\'t know how to turn down a race due to pride or ego.