PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Chrono on May 23, 2002, 12:48:52 PM
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Add another to the list..
Some game publishers have balked at Microsoft\'s plan to control the online platform, which could shift the balance of pricing power back to Microsoft as hardware provider, an unaccustomed change in an industry where game software has carried the higher margins.
The nature of the closed Xbox network and the gap in the user base between he two consoles -- more than 30 million worldwide for PS2 and close to 4 million worldwide for Xbox -- "just did not make it an opportunity we wanted to chase," said EA\'s vice-president of marketing Frank Gibeau. "I think there\'s a whole slate of issues we\'re working with Microsoft on."
Activision\'s Kotick was more succinct.
"Nobody\'s signed up for Xbox Live," he said.
Kotick said the Xbox was running about neck-and-neck with Sony in Europe after a sharp price cut in late April, essentially supporting Microsoft\'s own claim for the more recent success of the console that had struggled to find a foothold.
For his part, Gibeau said EA did not see any bump for Xbox sales at all since the price cut.
"The word that we have is that Sony is kicking butt," he said, saying the GameCube probably had an advantage in what he called "the race to number two."
Sony this week claimed unilateral victory in what it called the "console wars," saying its own recent price cut was boosting sales and that it had built an unassailable lead against both Nintendo and Microsoft.
I said that xbox live was a bad idea, and aparently its starting to show, without EA and Activision, online gaming on the xbox became even lower.
And, dropping the price in europe did very little, that is bad news as the price musta had little to do with bad xbox sales, content and brand name were just as important.
Link (http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=internetnews&StoryID=1003178)
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MS is a software company. Not a game company.
Some people say well look at Sony they had nothing to do with games until PS so MS can do the same thing.
They forgot Sony is an Entertainment company.
MS knows jack about games, Bill Gates knows jack about games.
Their reason for getting into gaming was the soul purpose of crushing the PS2, which was a bad idea. I dont know. Maybe they thought they could do it with money.
The system is doomed, IMO.
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No numbers?
Just more rumors/some company mouthing again.
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Originally posted by nonamer
No numbers?
Just more rumors/some company mouthing again.
EA is one company you dont want mouthing against you.
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Originally posted by Clowd
EA is one company you dont want mouthing against you.
Honestly, I could go without EA...Sega and MS will provide plenty of sports.
Activision on the other hand...is there something official yet? As in we will not be supporting Xbox Live...
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Activision on the other hand...is there something official yet? As in we will not be supporting Xbox Live...
I think its offical as you can get without being offically offical
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OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
no EA? no activision?
EA completely dominates the gaming sports realm
this is TERRIBLE news
:P
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Originally posted by Chrono
I think its offical as you can get without being offically offical
This is so typical of a Sony Fanboy such as yourself. When rumours abound of certain games getting ported or going exclusive you yell "Where\'s the official announcement?!?".
I\'ll wait until it\'s official:cool:
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Nobody\'s signed up for x box live yet? Ouch... Isnt it suppose to launch in 6 months?
Well it seems most x box gamers are happy enough playing sega and MS games online so I dont think this will effect them.
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Originally posted by Clowd
Nobody\'s signed up for x box live yet? Ouch... Isnt it suppose to launch in 6 months?
Well it seems most x box gamers are happy enough playing sega and MS games online so I dont think this will effect them.
That\'s not true...who\'s making Unreal Championship? They\'re signed up, Shayde vs. monsters...there are several. I\'ve misplaced my XBox magazine with all the companies...as soon as I find it you\'ll know...
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This is so typical of a Sony Fanboy such as yourself. When rumours abound of certain games getting ported or going exclusive you yell "Where\'s the official announcement?!?".
Activision dissed MS, how more offical do you need it.
Why would they say nobody signed up for it if they did themselves?
How does that make me a fanboy..
and if you own multiple consoles, why should it matter to you anyway?
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I just wanted to point out that you are a hypocrite...that\'s all.
Diss does not equal official or set in stone for that matter...there is still plenty of time for MS to shower Activision with money;)
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Diss does not equal official or set in stone for that matter...there is still plenty of time for MS to shower Activision with money
That sure worked with EA.. :rolleyes:
That is the offical xbox fanboy solution for everything, pay them money.
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Originally posted by Chrono
That sure worked with EA.. :rolleyes:
That is the offical xbox fanboy solution for everything, pay them money.
GO MONEEYYYYY!!:laughing:
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I dunno about you, but I think MS making Xbox Live a broadband only closed network is going to completely screw them over. For being their first console, they need as much leverage as they can get.
They need to allow Xbox owners to play against PS2 and GC owners in cross-platform online games if the developers of the game program it in. They need to allow 56k owners to access the network. Despite them claiming that over 50% of Xbox owners have broadband, I have a hard time believing them... although they don\'t have that many systems out there, so it could be true. If they had as many systems out there as Sony the number might be more like 10%. Assuming the number MS said at E3 is true, do they really think that preventing 50% of your userbase from accessing their network is a good idea?
Nintendo and Sony probably have the best idea for the online plans IMO, allowing everyone to access the network if they choose to. Except for Sony\'s SOCOM, it\'s going broadband only, which is stupid... hopefully they will change it, but at least they have the option to. MS can\'t do that with anything. It\'s broadband or nothing with Xbox Live.
I just don\'t see Xbox Live doing very well at all. I\'m sure it will have some great games for it, but I really think MS shot themselves in the foot with the choices they made. :(
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50% of Xbox have broadband or have broadband access?
Either way, if what MS said is true about the first year being free with the purchase of the starter kit (required) and then 9.95 a month after that...who would pass that up?
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x box live is broad band only? Oh it just gets worst
You got to be real gullable if you think they are going to charge only $10 for it...
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ginko, what makes you better than ANYONE else here?
no offence, just wondering
hmmmmmm, 10$+ a month vs playing online on PS2 for free
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Originally posted by Clowd
x box live is broad band only? Oh it just gets worst
You got to be real gullable if you think they are going to charge only $10 for it...
Do you happen to be mm\'s brother or something?
I\'m just relaying what I read...go to IGN and read it for yourself if you are having issues with it.
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Originally posted by mm
ginko, what makes you better than ANYONE else here?
Just because stupid people leave themselves wide open for criticism doesn\'t make me a bad guy...
hmmmmmm, 10$+ a month vs playing online on PS2 for free
Yeah, after you pay for your ISP...
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Originally posted by Ginko
Yeah, after you pay for your ISP...
You can use your exisiting ISP, the one you\'re using right now for internet access.
We\'re back to being completely free. :D
With Xbox Live, and I\'m just assuming here, but you\'d have to pay a monthy/yearly fee for their broadband service, plus the Xbox Live service itself. Pay=not free, correct? :confused:
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Originally posted by nataku
You can use your exisiting ISP, the one you\'re using right now for internet access.
We\'re back to being completely free. :D
With Xbox Live, and I\'m just assuming here, but you\'d have to pay a monthy/yearly fee for their broadband service, plus the Xbox Live service itself. Pay=not free, correct? :confused:
Do you have a free ISP? Or do your parents pay for it?
I\'m under the impression that it\'s just the monthly fee for Xbox live...
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+ yer ISP costs
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Originally posted by mm
+ yer ISP costs
Oh that gotta hurt
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Maybe I\'m just in the dark about the subject...how exactly does it work? A guess will do...except from clowd.
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to plug yer broadband lead (DSL/CABLE) into the back of the xbox and connect to xbox live
you need :
A. an ISP (45$+ a month)
B. a connection to xbox live (10$+ a month)
but like i said, yer gonna need a router and a second network cable unless yer xbox is right next to yer PC, then just unplug the lead from the PC and jack it into the xbox, but that kills yer internet connection to the PC, and vice-versa
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I cant believe I never thought of that. All ISPs dont offer broad band. And the ones that do charge $40+.
$120 a year to play x box live? No
$660 a year to play x box live? Yes
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"hmmm, I wanna play FFXI online...10 bucks a month right there. Oh, oh, oh, Everquest looks good, too. 13 bucks a month right there, Star Wars Galaxies is looking great, 10 bucks a month (estimate). D\'oh! Are we at 33 bucks already!! I only want to spend 10 bucks a month, too bad I will have to cut off Star Wars and Everquest. :("
Or...with MS\'s all-in-one network:
"I wanna play Star Wars Galaxies: free. I wanna play Farnation: free. I wanna play SW:KotOR: free. I wanna play any other mmorpg: free. Oh look, here is my ONE bill for all those games, 10 bucks. Oh, isn\'t that nice. and, since it is a closed network, I don\'t have to worry about cheaters and lag. thanks MS."
WHICH SITUATION WORKS OUT BETTER FOR CONSUMERS?!?!?!?!?!
HHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
THIS IS A TOUGH ONE!!!
btw, if you are already paying for your broadband, how does this factor in with the cost of gaming. It is not like you are only using broadband to play games with. :rolleyes: hmmm, I guess SOCOM is 40 bucks a month, then! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah (and so on and so on and so on. Your damn fuzzy logic and stupid trolling aren\'t funny or cute anymore"
Funny thing is, THPS4 is already announced online for XBox. DAMN, YOUR ARGUMENT WENT DOWN THE DRAIN! Sega is on XBox Live, Sierra is on XBox live, Unreal team is on, etc. seems like nobody to me.
Eric Jacob
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Is it true that the Xbox Live charge (10$) is tacked on to your already existing broadband server...that\'s would be 50$ a month!
Oh and did I see someone say FFXI is bb only!!
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Originally posted by Ginko
Oh and did I see someone say FFXI is bb only!!
FFXI can be played over 56k, from what I hear. It\'s not BB only. The only BB only game on PS2 so far is SOCOM.
Altered, having all those mmorpgs just thrown into the price of Xbox Live and not bumping up the price would seem kind of strange to me. They would basically be getting to play the game for free. MS can\'t split the money they are getting from their network to every company that has a mmorpg on Xbox Live to pay for the fee they have to charge to keep their servers up and running, it\'s just not possible.
Of course, that may be what that $1 billion MS recently threw into their online network was for. :D
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ummm, altered, put the pipe down baby
yeah, its ok, i know, i know
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Originally posted by nataku
FFXI can be played over 56k, from what I hear. It\'s not BB only. The only BB only game on PS2 so far is SOCOM.
Good, I really didn\'t want to miss out.
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buuuuuuuuuuut, I got the point across. Did I not? I win...again. I may have been a little too much in the red zone to be posting, but it came out half calm :0 well, no, more mocking then calm.
Eric Jacob
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You are going to have to take it down to a pre-k level to get it across to clowd...
Oh yeah, welcome back Altered...
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win what? you ex-sega wh0re! :)
how many people have time or effort to play more than one MMORPG?
how do you know there wont be a charge above xbox live from lucasarts to play SWG?
no cheaters huh? ask blizzard about thier "realm" server
MMORPG\'s aside, whos the better long term bargain?
we all know which MMORPG will be the most successfull anyways, and its not on xbox
40$ a month for socom? socom is free. the ISP charge gets me PC access too dont forget.
how long will you keep telling yerself xbox live will stay 10$ a month? m$ is dumping a billion dollars into it? oh yeah :rolleyes:
and EA stalls? activision up in the air? how many other devs will it take to not bend over backwards to comply ti m$?
oh, and why are are reborn xbox fans so violent, its eerie
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Speaking of FFXI, anyone know how that\'s going?
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I have always gone off on people, it\'s my style. I am still a Sega whore, yessir! The day Sega becomes EA is the day I become an ex-Sega whore, and an ex-videogames player.
Even if you only have one mmorpg on either console, than it will be the same price to use either system. but, MS controls the network and it will most likely be the most secure (least prone to hacking) and best run (least lag, connection problems) etc. that said, I will always want to play against like speed competitors. Playing people who had the BBA on Quake 3 was a little too much for me.
regardless, I don\'t see myself buying any PS2 online games until they get some games that a) interest me and b) is not also on a newer, better run system.
Eric Jacob
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i love ya bro, but putting micro$oft and secure in the same sentence is attrocious. windows has ALWAYS been the joke of network security.
security is the least of yer worries
yer main concern is hoping to find loads of competition
broadband gaming is a VERY small percentage of the online realm
most gamers are under 18, so no credit card
parents already pay $45+ a month for cable, so it will hard to justify the investment to get xbox online also
i just think m$ took a nice healthy crap in the face of all 56k\'rs
alien front online proved that 4 way gameplay WITH voice communication can be done lag free
so that nice fat healthy chunk of online gamers will purchase the opposition
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Microsoft is bragging about how secure their xbox network will be.. which is a bad idea.
Just makes all the linux/MS haters want to hack it even more..
How many times will the network be brought down cause of hackers? Especially hackers who like games that were screwed or got games late cause of the xbox exisiting?
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Honestly though, how many of the 2 million x box owners do you think have broad band? I bet over half probably dont even have a internet connection.
And the ones that do have internet, what makes you think their ready to spend $55 a month on broadband?
When Sony tryed to do this "broad band only" bull they quickly wisened up and allowed users with 56k to get internet through their PS2.
Another rookie mistake from MS.
Prot
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Don\'t you think that all companies will eventually charge for this stuff once they suck people in?
I\'m not sure where I stand on on-line games yet. Sounds cool but I am already spending a fortune.
Ace
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Originally posted by Ace
Don\'t you think that all companies will eventually charge for this stuff once they suck people in?
No. Some companies like EA have been charging nothing for online games for years.
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Originally posted by Ginko
Speaking of FFXI, anyone know how that\'s going?
i didnt think someone like you would buy the PS2 HDD :)
i cant wait, ill be sure to play it against/with you one day, hey Ginks? even though Australia wont get it for ages :(
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If it plays better than PSO, I\'ll get it. I love the idea of meeting with other people and going on quest and such...US doesn\'t get it till next year:(
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Originally posted by Ginko
If it plays better than PSO, I\'ll get it. I love the idea of meeting with other people and going on quest and such...US doesn\'t get it till next year:(
wow cool man.. guess its those Real Estate dollars :)
(my character will sex0riz0r j00r character)
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
wow cool man.. guess its those Real Estate dollars :)
(my character will sex0riz0r j00r character)
it\'s alot of work (like 60 hour weeks), it pays off. I\'ll have downtime and I\'d like to pick up on a MMORPG, FFXI looks to be the one...
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
(my character will sex0riz0r j00r character)
you\'ll have to get in line!!;)
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Originally posted by AlteredBeast
I have always gone off on people, it\'s my style. I am still a Sega whore, yessir! The day Sega becomes EA is the day I become an ex-Sega whore, and an ex-videogames player.
Even if you only have one mmorpg on either console, than it will be the same price to use either system. but, MS controls the network and it will most likely be the most secure (least prone to hacking) and best run (least lag, connection problems) etc. that said, I will always want to play against like speed competitors. Playing people who had the BBA on Quake 3 was a little too much for me.
regardless, I don\'t see myself buying any PS2 online games until they get some games that a) interest me and b) is not also on a newer, better run system.
Eric Jacob
This is just completely wrong, I\'m sorry Altered. I bought Dungeon Siege, and I have not been able to connect to ZoneMatch, a MS network, since day one. I hear well over half the people who own the game haven\'t been able to, either. I have other games that use the same MS network and they\'ve had more than their fair share of problems with connection and lag.
Xbox Live is gonna have problems with connection and lag just like every other network, the ones they run right now for the PC do. I don\'t think hacking will be a problem on any console because people don\'t have the kind of access in them like they do on PCs, they don\'t have an OS or anything like that, so they can\'t get programs to help them get into them, but who knows... people are clever.
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I don\'t think hacking will be a problem on any console because people don\'t have the kind of access in them like they do on PCs, they don\'t have an OS or anything like that, so they can\'t get programs to help them get into them, but who knows... people are clever.
uhh.. you underestimate hackers..
the server will have a IP adress and run a windows server just like any other ones (well, like any windows server)..
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Originally posted by Chrono
uhh.. you underestimate hackers..
the server will have a IP adress and run a windows server just like any other ones (well, like any windows server)..
I\'m well aware of what hackers can do. :)
And I doubt Sony will be running any kind of Windows server. :D
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yeah, the PS2 runs on a M$ OS :rolleyes:
say it with me
peer - to - peer
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Let\'s see if I can clear up a few things:
Originally posted by mm
yeah, the PS2 runs on a M$ OS :rolleyes:
say it with me
peer - to - peer
With 2 players only, unless you\'ve got an ethernet card in your PS2, which is something Xbox has built-in. In fact, Xbox is a lot better at peer-to-peer gaming than any other system. Hell, you don\'t even need to be connected to the internet to do so; Just start your own LAN.
Xbox Live is gonna have problems with connection and lag just like every other network, the ones they run right now for the PC do.
FYI, a Broadband connection is always connected 24/7 unless your system is turned or you physically disconnect the connection, so there will be little or no connection problems and almost no lag (this is pure BB remember, ping will be much lower than dialup).
I\'m well aware of what hackers can do.
And I doubt Sony will be running any kind of Windows server.
Uh, in Sony\'s plan the game developers have to find their own servers. And it doesn\'t matter if they use Windows servers or not, they still work the same way and are hackable.
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nonamer, FYI, you have no clue what your talking about
With 2 players only, unless you\'ve got an ethernet card in your PS2, which is something Xbox has built-in. In fact, Xbox is a lot better at peer-to-peer gaming than any other system. Hell, you don\'t even need to be connected to the internet to do so; Just start your own LAN.
What makes the xbox better at it?
Second, you can\'t start your own lan cause you have to pay M$ money to play online, and therefor use MS\'s servers and be connected to the internet.
With the ps2 is highly possible that LAN parties would work, but not with the xbox. *
FYI, a Broadband connection is always connected 24/7 unless your system is turned or you physically disconnect the connection, so there will be little or no connection problems and almost no lag (this is pure BB remember, ping will be much lower than dialup).
Yep, but that does not mean the server is invunerable.
Why are some webpages slow pn the internet when your using BB? Both you and the server use a BB connection, so why is the access time slow and the loading sometimes slow?
Uh, in Sony\'s plan the game developers have to find their own servers. And it doesn\'t matter if they use Windows servers or not, they still work the same way and are hackable.
True, however hackers hate MS, you are popular in the hacking world if you take down MS.. simple as that
so, once again, FYI shut up unless you know what your talking about. Thank you :D
EDIT: *With the exception of current games only, future games will likely remove the Lan feature.
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ok, clearing things up means posting moot points?
you cannot call two xbox\'s hooked togther a LAN
PS2 is capable of doing this also if you didnt know, via USB ports for one, oh thats right, the xbox doesnt have any
broadband DOES NOT GUARANTEE you no lag
yer limited by countless variables, its not like we\'re playing on OC48\'s
yer gonna have to split yer incoming signal with yer xbox and PC, what happens when yer on yer xbox and someone wants to use the pc? 16k/sec does not fair well.
what servers? again, peer to peer
do you see PS2 tony hawk 3 using servers?
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Originally posted by Chrono
nonamer, FYI, you have no clue what your talking about ]
Do you have a clue about what you\'re talking about?!
quote:
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With 2 players only, unless you\'ve got an ethernet card in your PS2, which is something Xbox has built-in. In fact, Xbox is a lot better at peer-to-peer gaming than any other system. Hell, you don\'t even need to be connected to the internet to do so; Just start your own LAN.
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What makes the xbox better at it?
Second, you can\'t start your own lan cause you have to pay M$ money to play online, and therefor use MS\'s servers and be connected to the internet.
With the ps2 is highly possible that LAN parties would work, but not with the xbox.
You don\'t need to be connected to the internet to have a LAN! Do you even know what LAN stands for?!
quote:
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FYI, a Broadband connection is always connected 24/7 unless your system is turned or you physically disconnect the connection, so there will be little or no connection problems and almost no lag (this is pure BB remember, ping will be much lower than dialup).
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Yep, but that does not mean the server is invunerable.
Why are some webpages slow pn the internet when your using BB? Both you and the server use a BB connection, so why is the access time slow and the loading sometimes slow?
Yes, the server isn\'t invulnerable, but within a closed and well-managed network like Xbox Live, that shouldn\'t be a problem.
quote:
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Uh, in Sony\'s plan the game developers have to find their own servers. And it doesn\'t matter if they use Windows servers or not, they still work the same way and are hackable.
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True, however hackers hate MS, you are popular in the hacking world if you take down MS.. simple as that
Two things: One, you have no evidence showing this and two, with a close network like Xbox Live, that\'ll be quiet difficult to do.
ok, clearing things up means posting moot points?
you cannot call two xbox\'s hooked togther a LAN
Of course not, but basically you\'ll need only to set up a hub.
PS2 is capable of doing this also if you didnt know, via USB ports for one, oh thats right, the xbox doesnt have any
Technically, the Xbox has modified USB ports for controller ports.
broadband DOES NOT GUARANTEE you no lag
yer limited by countless variables, its not like we\'re playing on OC48\'s
yer gonna have to split yer incoming signal with yer xbox and PC, what happens when yer on yer xbox and someone wants to use the pc? 16k/sec does not fair well.
A lot better than dialup.:p
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dialup = large majority
80%+ of the market is dialup
modified USB port?
hmm, thats like bragging that USB is a modified parallel port
imagine the average xbox owner [small minority] who possibly has a broadband connection [even smaller minority]. they have to pay ISP costs 1st of all + the xbox live cost. add in a router and this will add to the initial cost and guess who the majority of the bills get paid by, thats right, the parents. with each step we go thru, the numbers will get smaller and smaller
dont get me wrong, the PS2\'s online plan isnt much better, but as usual, sony goes for the majority
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Originally posted by mm
imagine the average xbox owner [small minority] who possibly has a broadband connection [even smaller minority].
LMAO
:laughing:
Careful mate ... or you might be accused of discriminating against a very troubled and lonely minority....
;)
joke for yous all
What do you call the UK X box owning minority that has BRAODBAND ?
The offical BETA Testers
:laughing: :laughing:
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Originally posted by nonamer
FYI, a Broadband connection is always connected 24/7 unless your system is turned or you physically disconnect the connection, so there will be little or no connection problems and almost no lag (this is pure BB remember, ping will be much lower than dialup).
I wasn\'t talking about your ISP or your broadband connection on Xbox Live, I was talking about the actual network itself. I know broadband is always on, I have a cable modem. :) Did you even read what I said about Dungeon Siege and Microsoft\'s ZoneMatch network for it? It\'s going to have those kinds of problems when it ends up having trouble. Lag is possible, my internet browsing slows down sometimes.
And mm is right, if you have your PC and PS2 hooked up to your broadband at the same time, it\'s going to slow to a crawl, almost 56k speeds. I\'m sure a lot of people won\'t like not having their PC connected to the internet while they are playing their PS2 online, so they may try to network the two together.
Uh, in Sony\'s plan the game developers have to find their own servers. And it doesn\'t matter if they use Windows servers or not, they still work the same way and are hackable.
I was talking about Sony not using a Microsoft server because it\'s from Microsoft. :D
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ok, lets delve deep deeper
when you jack that cat5 cable into yer xbox and connect to the internet, its assigned an IP. that makes it VERY vulnerable to network attacks, and its not far from a PC architectually.
lets say you have a online match against an opponent in some xbox online game. whats to prevent yer opponent from going to his PC (which is plugged into same router as xbox) and pingflooding you to death? how easy will it be to upload a virus onto the xbox harddrive?
remember, almost all broadband connections (DSL/cable) are limited to 16k/sec. i can poop more data than that
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It seems like x box\'s online plans are geared toward people with $
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Damn, too many people to fight off.
Originally posted by mm
ok, lets delve deep deeper
when you jack that cat5 cable into yer xbox and connect to the internet, its assigned an IP. that makes it VERY vulnerable to network attacks, and its not far from a PC architectually.
lets say you have a online match against an opponent in some xbox online game. whats to prevent yer opponent from going to his PC (which is plugged into same router as xbox) and pingflooding you to death? how easy will it be to upload a virus onto the xbox harddrive?
Not really. Remember, Xbox Live is a closed network and the Xbox is a close system. It\'s a lot less vulnerable than a PC w/ BB. And just because someone has a Xbox and a PC on the same connection doesn\'t mean that they interfere with each other.
remember, almost all broadband connections (DSL/cable) are limited to 16k/sec. i can poop more data than that
Huh? I don\'t know about you, but AFAIK, almost all BB connections are limited to that speed on the upside only. They can still DL at 150-300k/sec. If you\'re going to "poop" data(assuming that you somehow can), you\'ll only do so at 16k/sec or so, which can be easily handled by the other person.
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yep Clowd, money and the ablility to access BB
While the PS2 has a 39.99 adaptor and allowing 56k acess which will work with alot of games just fine
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every network is limited by its least common denominator, and in the broadband case, its yer upload speed 16k/sec. xbox live will have lag just like every other entity. what if yer 3 states and 30 hops away from the "centralized server", than what?
closed xbox system? is that why its piracy protection was wh0red a few weeks ago, not that i condone that sort of thing. m$ claimed the xbox was unhackable
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Originally posted by mm
every network is limited by its least common denominator, and in the broadband case, its yer upload speed 16k/sec. xbox live will have lag just like every other entity. what if yer 3 states and 30 hops away from the "centralized server", than what?
closed xbox system? is that why its piracy protection was wh0red a few weeks ago, not that i condone that sort of thing. m$ claimed the xbox was unhackable
Yes it will have lag, etc., but much less than on a 56k connection.
Piracy protection is not network security, and, since most of those claims of hacking the Xbox seems to be false, the Xbox is still pretty safe (perhaps secret groups have hacked it, but the info probably hasn\'t spread if that\'s the case). Even if was hacked, it doesn\'t mean that it can be hacked remotely.
yep Clowd, money and the ablility to access BB
While the PS2 has a 39.99 adaptor and allowing 56k acess which will work with alot of games just fine
Oh yeah, that reminds me. Since the PS2 requires an adaptor for online play;
# of people on the PS2 that can play online games << # of people on the Xbox that can do so.
Take that mm.:p;)
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you DO know that the PS2 supports 56k, right?
online PS2 users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> xbox online users
there roughly 35 million PS2\'s out there and selling expenentially to the xbox
has xbox even hit 10% of that yet?
lets say they have. roughly 20% of all online users are broadband. if every xbox user gets online with thier xbox [impossible, i know], then at the max, thats roughly 7000 users
lets say 20% of xbox users get online, and thats pretty frickin optimistic [a prayer in hell], th number now becomes 1400 users. see the numbers dropping, huh?
you cannot ever honestly think there will be more xbox online users when they shut out 56krs (extremely dominant party). 56krs\' will be able to just plug and play most of the PS2 online games just fine for free. the broadband users will have to make a choice
secret groups? there\'s 3 companies making chips for the xbox as i type. the xbox has no network protection. they will suffer in the long run for making it a PC clone
please dont waste my time with irrelevant banter and moot points
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Originally posted by nonamer
Oh yeah, that reminds me. Since the PS2 requires an adaptor for online play;
# of people on the PS2 that can play online games << # of people on the Xbox that can do so.
Take that mm.:p;)
Doesnt x box require a $50 dollar starter kit for online gaming?
Prot
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Originally posted by mm
you DO know that the PS2 supports 56k, right?
online PS2 users >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> xbox online users
there roughly 35 million PS2\'s out there and selling expenentially to the xbox
has xbox even hit 10% of that yet?
lets say they have. roughly 20% of all online users are broadband. if every xbox user gets online with thier xbox [impossible, i know], then at the max, thats roughly 7000 users
lets say 20% of xbox users get online, and thats pretty frickin optimistic [a prayer in hell], th number now becomes 1400 users. see the numbers dropping, huh?
you cannot ever honestly think there will be more xbox online users when they shut out 56krs (extremely dominant party). 56krs\' will be able to just plug and play most of the PS2 online games just fine for free. the broadband users will have to make a choice
secret groups? there\'s 3 companies making chips for the xbox as i type. the xbox has no network protection. they will suffer in the long run for making it a PC clone
please dont waste my time with irrelevant banter and moot points
Um, excuse me but don\'t you need an adaptor to have even a 56k connection for the PS2!.
So in other words:
# of people who currently have an online connection for the PS2 ~ 0!
And where did you learn your math?
20% of all Xbox users, assuming 2-3 million currently, is 400,000 - 600,000! 20% of that is 80,000 - 120,000!
No bets on the future of either plans for me, but IMO the dominance of 56k is overated. BB\'s imfluence is growing rapidly and AOL and its stock has be suffering as of late due to this.
And where do you get the idea that the Xbox has no network protection? You\'re just making this stuff up. So what if 3 companies make chips for Xbox? Doesn\'t the average electronic device have dozens of companies making parts and still have security?
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Originally posted by Clowd
Doesnt x box require a $50 dollar starter kit for online gaming?
Prot
No. Where did you get that idea? If your talking about a router, you could simply unplug the connection to you PC and connect it to the Xbox. No big deal, unless you want to use your PC and your Xbox at the same time.
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Originally posted by nonamer
No. Where did you get that idea? If your talking about a router, you could simply unplug the connection to you PC and connect it to the Xbox. No big deal, unless you want to use your PC and your Xbox at the same time.
You dont know as much about x box\'s online plans as you think. To gain access to their "x box live" you need a $50 starter kit.
Prot:alien:
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Originally posted by Clowd
You dont know as much about x box\'s online plans as you think. To gain access to their "x box live" you need a $50 starter kit.
Prot:alien:
You must be confusing yourself. I\'ve looked it up and that "starter kit" is just signing up for Xbox Live but with a voice communicator and a game for free. Looks more a marketing attempt to get people to sign up by rolling up than an actually "starter kit."
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Originally posted by nonamer
You must be confusing yourself. I\'ve looked it up and that "starter kit" is just signing up for Xbox Live but with a voice communicator and a game for free. Looks more a marketing attempt to get people to sign up by rolling up than an actually "starter kit."
It is still required, and is still $50.
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yeah, the average xbox user is gonna unplug the cable from the back of thier PC and magically make it reach thru the walls of thier house to reach the xbox
:rolleyes:
the network adaptor is 45+ and will include a free copy of TMB. how much did we pay to watch DVD\'s on the xbox? how much did we pay for a digital out port? both of which come stock on the PS2, huh? oh yeah
where did you get that the xbox HAS network protection?
my math is fine, i used a 2% model and not 20%
im being realistic
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Originally posted by mm
yeah, the average xbox user is gonna unplug the cable from the back of thier PC and magically make it reach thru the walls of thier house to reach the xbox
:rolleyes:
Buy an extra long cable or move the Xbox. Surely if anyone was willing to play online games with the Xbox they\'ll be willing do a few minor things.
the network adaptor is 45+ and will include a free copy of TMB. how much did we pay to watch DVD\'s on the xbox? how much did we pay for a digital out port? both of which come stock on the PS2, huh? oh yeah
how much did we pay to get a HD on the PS2? how much did we pay to have 4 controller ports? both of which come stock on the Xbox, huh? oh yeah.:p
where did you get that the xbox HAS network protection?
Where did you get the idea that it doesn\'t? Do you really think that MS would put all sorts of security features on the Xbox except when it comes to network protection? There will be some, at least in software.
my math is fine, i used a 2% model and not 20%
im being realistic
Huh? 2% of 2-3 million is 80,000 - 120,000, and 2% of that is 1600 - 2400! To get 7000, you\'ll need .35%-.233% of 2-3 million! You\'re math still doesn\'t make sense.
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again, i used the wrong decimal point
lets recap
lets say xbox has hit 10% of PS2 sales, thats 3.5 million
20% of those that get online is 700,000
20% of those that actually have broadband is 140,000
how low of a % of the owners are willing to do the little things to comprimise?
extra long cable?
so the PC loses its connection to feed the xbox?
yer full of moot points
HD\'s on consoles werent thought of back when PS2 launched
two controller ports keeps cost down
a small minority of consoles get more than two players at a time
here\'s a hint, yer wasting yer breath
in the immortal words,
"toot on"
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I think you guys have wandered a bit off topic and missed out on the important thing:
While Xbox may come with more for its price (HD + Ethernetcard), it is loosing out on a lot of users simply due to its broadband only. Debate what you want - that is a serious drawback for the average Xbox buyer outthere that would love to use it but can\'t.
Secondly, the Xbox Live. Thanks to this brilliant idea (and the marketing gimmick of "having the best in mind for the consumer"), they are getting a lot of companies having second thoughts about making online games for their system. EA and Activision might be the only ones at the time, but I\'m sure lot more will follow if Microsoft doesn\'t ease up and do something about it. Missing out on those potential online games is a big minus. While Microsoft will be trying to get those online games on their own server, we on PS2 will be playing heaps of online games thanks to the support by developers. Yeah, the add-on is necessary, but Japan is already proving that it can be succesfull if the price is right. With a $80 dollar price here in the states for the HD (which is 5 times the size of Xbox\'s HD), I\'m sure it will find enough buyers to ensure good support.
And nonamer, even if mm\'s numbers are a bit off target, the princible is still the same: their will be more users online on PS2 than on Xbox, because it\'s not BB-only and more support by developers as it seems. Also bigger userbase on the PS2. You don\'t really have to do the math - it should be quite clear like this already.
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Originally posted by mm
again, i used the wrong decimal point
lets recap
lets say xbox has hit 10% of PS2 sales, thats 3.5 million
20% of those that get online is 700,000
20% of those that actually have broadband is 140,000
how low of a % of the owners are willing to do the little things to comprimise?
Ok, now it makes sense. But still, how do you know that it\'s 20%? Some have said (in another forum) that it may be closer to 50% since most Xbox buyers are hardcore gamers with BB. All in all, we don\'t know, so this is pretty hard to argue. All I can say is that playing on the Xbox will be better.
extra long cable?
so the PC loses its connection to feed the xbox?
You can always plug it back in you know.:rolleyes:
yer full of moot points
HD\'s on consoles werent thought of back when PS2 launched
two controller ports keeps cost down
a small minority of consoles get more than two players at a time
here\'s a hint, yer wasting yer breath
in the immortal words,
"toot on" [/B]
Yeah, as if DVD playing ability and a digital out port are more useful.:rolleyes:
Originally posted by seven
I think you guys have wandered a bit off topic and missed out on the important thing:
While Xbox may come with more for its price (HD + Ethernetcard), it is loosing out on a lot of users simply due to its broadband only. Debate what you want - that is a serious drawback for the average Xbox buyer outthere that would love to use it but can\'t.
Secondly, the Xbox Live. Thanks to this brilliant idea (and the marketing gimmick of "having the best in mind for the consumer"), they are getting a lot of companies having second thoughts about making online games for their system. EA and Activision might be the only ones at the time, but I\'m sure lot more will follow if Microsoft doesn\'t ease up and do something about it. Missing out on those potential online games is a big minus. While Microsoft will be trying to get those online games on their own server, we on PS2 will be playing heaps of online games thanks to the support by developers. Yeah, the add-on is necessary, but Japan is already proving that it can be succesfull if the price is right. With a $80 dollar price here in the states for the HD (which is 5 times the size of Xbox\'s HD), I\'m sure it will find enough buyers to ensure good support.
And nonamer, even if mm\'s numbers are a bit off target, the princible is still the same: their will be more users online on PS2 than on Xbox, because it\'s not BB-only and more support by developers as it seems. Also bigger userbase on the PS2. You don\'t really have to do the math - it should be quite clear like this already.
The Xbox argument is this: It is traditionally believed that Addons = dead. Since ever Xbox has an BB connection and for PS2 and GC you need to buy a network adaptor, the percent of Xboxes that will be online (even assuming that only 20% have BB) will be greater than that of PS2 or GC. Also, a closed network, although it will scare off the big developers, will bring the small developers, because they can\'t afford a massive cluster of servers of their own, which should allow for more and better games.
Look at the PC online gaming market. It\'s tiny, unreliable depending on whose service you\'re using, cheating is often rampant, and there\'s no small and innovating guys because they can\'t afford it. The PS2 online plan will basically create the same thing. The Xbox argument is that if you want the same thing as the "PC online experience" on the PS2, DO SO ON THE PC. But with the Xbox, you have a close, fast, relatively cheatingless, and reliable online service that will be much better. There is actually a reason to get this service over the PC. It all rolls down to one thing: better service. Look at the big picture. There is almost no chance that PS2 plan could actually work over the long-haul if the PC online industry is any indication. But with the Xbox, there is actually a chance. So what if BB isn\'t popular now. It will be and even in its current shape it\'s still pretty potent. Naysayers who say that it has no chance, I say to you that its chances are better than you think.
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Some have said 50% of x box owners are hard core and use bb?
From other forums? Team x box maybe? x box dot com?
You think 4 player is more important then dvd playback? ;)
bb will scare off the big developers but will bring in the small developers huh, and you think thats a good thing. Your getting desperate.
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yeah addons = dead
thats why ffxi soldout 400,00 units
so, now yer going from definates to "chances"
glad you see our way of things
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Originally posted by mm
yeah addons = dead
thats why ffxi soldout 400,00 units
so, now yer going from definates to "chances"
glad you see our way of things
400,000 or 40,000?
I never said Xbox Live will definitely win, I just said that it will be better and it actually has a chance of succeeding while PS2\'s plan won\'t work in the long run.
And Clowd, name a simple big developer that has a lot of experience making online games. They\'re all pretty much in the same boat.
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EA, activision, and any other dev thats made PC titles
theyve been doing it for years
again, yer neglecting the 56k market and the majority it holds
i sense a pattern here
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And Clowd, name a simple big developer that has a lot of experience making online games. They\'re all pretty much in the same boat.
Simple, EA
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I was refering to online only games. Of course they all made games with online feature.
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I think these are just bad decisions by the companies. I personally think MS can provide the best online gameing selection/service. This opinion isnt based on the system at all. Its just that since they are pretty much the biggest PC buisness and have dealt with online gaming before (right?). Im going to have to go with the exp. over hype.
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yeah, thier m$ zone is very reliable and secure
:P
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In the US broadband accounts for 16% of those already connected to the internet. A recent survey of 56k users projects slow growth of BB converts, with 9% responding they very interested in converting to BB within the next year, 16% somewhat interested, and 75% showing little to no interest in paying extra for high speed internet service. Sorry, didn\'t bookmark the source.
And I didn\'t see this next bit of info first hand but it fits in well with the previous set of figures; a forecast by Nielsen, independent from the one above, says BB connections may break the 50% level by around 2007, which suggests to me offering only BB service on this generation of consoles wasn\'t the wisest choice.
I see no good reason why we shouldn\'t expect to see a proportionally similar % of PS2 BB users to be playing games online as xboxers. In other words, the # of PS2 BB players = 10xs the # of xbox players. Nonamer thinks someone already paying $40 a month for BB service is going to balk at paying another $40 one time only to play PS2 games online for free? Get serious! Now add to that all the 56k players...
Anyway, I think all three consoles are just gearing up and positioning themselves for the future. If any of them make money doing so this gen it\'ll just be icing for tomorrow\'s cake.
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Originally posted by cloud345
I think these are just bad decisions by the companies. I personally think MS can provide the best online gameing selection/service. This opinion isnt based on the system at all. Its just that since they are pretty much the biggest PC buisness and have dealt with online gaming before (right?). Im going to have to go with the exp. over hype.
Ever hear of Everquest?
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Both plans are fairly terrible, what is best for you varies from person to person. Sony\'s online base will be bigger though with the inclusion of 56k. That should settle all of this, why is it still being discussed?
Oh, and I can\'t believe someone said that the Xbox controller ports were modified USB ports... you swear I could plug my 56k USB modem into that port. Mentioning that is so moot its baffling.
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Uggg...
and they say misery loves company...
must be a lot of misery around here.
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Originally posted by mm
OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
no EA? no activision?
EA completely dominates the gaming sports realm
this is TERRIBLE news
:P
I emailed EA\'s CEO and said that his software are just rehashes and very low quality games and that he should step down and let me be CEO. No cursing or threats at all. Pretty much what I said.
I got an email back from EA\'s legal department saying that they are scared that I might do something to their CEO and they are thinking that I am dangerous and that they will report me to the proper authorities.
Now that is pretty weak and sad. EA does suck and I hope John you are reading this.
You are scared because people don\'t like your software, well you are next to 3DO for your quality and you know a lot of other people are writing emails just like the one I wrote. Its not a threat at all. You just can\'t take critism.
EA lacks quality and lacks a good CEO.
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OMG, ITS DOCWIZ! hide the children!
dude, i hope you wrote that in jest, or yer pretty fukin pathetic
EA has DOMINATED the sports genre for a decade now
please crawl back in yer hole, before you smell rational thought and seek out to destroy it
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Originally posted by Docwiz
I got an email back from EA\'s legal department saying that they are scared that I might do something to their CEO and they are thinking that I am dangerous and that they will report me to the proper authorities.
If that\'s true, then that\'s just hillarious. I hope they nail you (perhaps you\'ll get a new best friend called Billy-Bob). :D
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i\'d just like to point out that there are already 400,000 PS2 online users in Japan already.. for a game that requires the HDD and BBA :)
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it sold out 400,000 instantly
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So FF11 is bb only?
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Nah Clowd, I\'m 99.9% sure FFXI supports 56k. The PS2 BBA includes 56k modem.
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I emailed EA\'s CEO and said that his software are just rehashes and very low quality games and that he should step down and let me be CEO. No cursing or threats at all. Pretty much what I said.
Now I have seen just how pathetic you truly are. You e-mailed EA because you\'re upset that they will not support your beloved Xbox online? EA hurt your feelings a lot I guess, but now I see you are just one psychopathic gamer. You are not normal, you are a goddamn freak and I really do fear you and your utter lack of intelligence. When someone can\'t take it when a company smites their favorite piece of plastic, there is definitely a screw loose.
Before, just debating with you was funny, your fanboy ways were just hilarious to mock, but now, to really see you do something as retarded and lame as this, I think you should really seek professional psychiatric help. I\'m not joking either and that\'s the worst part of this post. I really think you need help DocWiz and if the authorities catch you, I hope they give you the help you really need.
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Originally posted by Docwiz
EA does suck and I hope John you are reading this.
You are scared because people don\'t like your software, well you are next to 3DO for your quality and you know a lot of other people are writing emails just like the one I wrote.
EA lacks quality
Let me guess, you think Fever is better.:p
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We have gone from making stupid arguments to making up stupid statistics, have we?
Sony only shipped 200,000 units of their bba (essential for getting online) I know for a fact that they didn\'t get close to selling out. Go check the latest Dengeki or Famitsu. It is quite humurous that you believe they sold out 400,000 just like that, when Square themselves said that on the first day 70,000 people signed on to play, the second fay it was like 60,000 or something.
something ain\'t right and I believe it is your numbers.
Can\'t we argue with facts? Please?
Eric Jacob
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Who says the Japanese bought FF11 and the adapator at the same time? They will eventually pick it up.
Did you not hear the news square is having problems signing people up?
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Square only sipped 200,000 copies to meet the quantity of bba\'s.
go look at the famitsu or dengeki. It didn\'t sell out, not even close. Square is having problems with the network because they didn\'t anticipate the early demand rush of 70,000 people at once. All problems are fixed now (pretty much)
Eric Jacob
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Altered, if you have the facts, please post them. ;)
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http://www.geocities.com/chtang.geo/toptenDengeki.htm
I am a factmeister :) what reason would I have to lie?
Eric Jacob
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and what day was ffxi released?
and where are the xbox games on that list?
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:rolleyes:
who cares what day it was released? Sakura Taisen 4 was released 2 days before the totals were added and it sold nearly 200,000 I believe. FF should have enough power to sell more than that in a few days!
XBox bombed in Japan, mm, didn\'t you hear the news? although I suspect Halo will move up a few spots for next weeks tally because of the pricedrop.
Eric Jacob
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i care what day it was released altered, it will make a great deal of difference on that chart
xbox bombed huh? i got sick of hearing how piss poor [© ooseven 2002] is was doing in japan, i havent paid attention
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I thought the same thing mm and did some research: Final Fantasy XI launched on May 16th accoarding to GameWatcher. Dengeki\'s Chart goes from May 13th to May 19th - so that would mean FFXI sold roughly over 70\'000 copies in just about 3 days. If the game had maintained it\'s sales from launch until now, it could very well be that it sold over 200\'000 copies to date. And if sales increased, we\'re speculating over a much higher number than that.
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Usually a game sells more in it\'s first couple weeks than it will throughout the rest of it\'s life time. I doubt that FFXI will reach even 300,000 in Japan. and you can quote me on that.
Eric Jacob
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well, that is speculation now. I prefer to wait for the next chart update. Not that it matters anyway - the point was that the infirious add-on is infact a success and these numbers do indicate that. Remember, it\'s one game that already got that many BB\'s sold - and with the launch of more online games soon - I don\'t see this add-on becoming a failure.
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I think Square shipped 125 000 copies IIRC.
According to IGN most stores sold out.
The PSBB kit was selling really well as well (Ive heard they are very hard to find and you must pre-order them now)
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and you can quote me on that.
you better not leave like a b1tch when it does
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XBox Live will be a failure because it will have (as the numbers stand right now) 700,000 users MAX. but when a PS2 add-on sells 80,000 and that is what you NEED to be online with, it is a success.
excuse me while I laugh at the double standard (it is my job, btw). Hahahaha!
Eric Jacob
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don\'t worry, we will see in a couple weeks if it has even a chance to sell 300k.
Eric Jacob
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did altered just combine thoughts from severeal threads into one post?
i dont follow
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I wasn\'t talking to you, mm. I was talking to seven, who believes that 80,000 is a good number, that proves the bb was a success.
I guess SegaCD was a great success, then, it sold 3 million worldwide.
Eric Jacob
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80,000 right off the bat IS good for an addon that xbox fanatics said wouldnt sell, no?
how many segacd\'s were sold over its lifespan in japan?
how many PS2 bb\'s do YOU think will be sold in japan over the rest of PS2\'s life? better be less than 300,000 huh?
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Originally posted by AlteredBeast
I wasn\'t talking to you, mm. I was talking to seven, who believes that 80,000 is a good number, that proves the bb was a success.
I guess SegaCD was a great success, then, it sold 3 million worldwide.
Eric Jacob
Sega.net had over 100,000 users and look what happened to it...I believe they said they would need 300,000 + users to break even then profit...
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FFXI has sold 75-80 000 BBAs and HDDs on top of that Sony has sold out all its initial shipment of the stand alone PSBB kit (I dont have any numbers yet)
The US BBA will be priced at 39.99, for 40bux you get the BBA (100Mbit Ethernet plus v.90 modem connections) plus the necessary Startup disc, plus a demo (Tribes AA, Socom, Freqency 2, Madden) and a coupon for a free copy of Twisted Metal Online.
On top of that Sony BroadBand network is FREE OF CHARGE (unlike MS where you pay 50bux the first year then 10bux/month plus extra costs for some games).. To me this plan is looking much more appealing than MS plans.
(Also note that most 3rd party games will be free online on PS2 just like on PC, but MMORPGs will of course have a monthly fee to cover the server costs)
Not bad IMO..
Im sure a lot of people will get this kit.
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Originally posted by AlteredBeast
XBox Live will be a failure because it will have (as the numbers stand right now) 700,000 users MAX. but when a PS2 add-on sells 80,000 and that is what you NEED to be online with, it is a success.
excuse me while I laugh at the double standard (it is my job, btw). Hahahaha!
Eric Jacob
Huh, I think we were debating which service is better - not which one is a failure and which isn\'t. The arguement about FFXI selling so well was the icing to some of the Xbox fanboys in here who still think that add-on == failure. And as mm pointed out, 70\'000 copies sold first day (or first 3) is a very good start indeed. Following Fast\'s info from above, also indicates that it may have even sold out (or close to), which also indicates that this add-on won\'t be a failure. With Sony backing it - I doubt it even less that this will be a failure. At least they are going for the majority (unlike MS), so expect more support also.
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u sure the adaptor is 100mpbs? that seems a bit high
cable connections are 10 mbps
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Originally posted by mm
u sure the adaptor is 100mpbs? that seems a bit high
cable connections are 10 mbps
Oh.. Its 10/100Mbit..
My two Ethernet cards on my comp are 10/100Mbits aswell. :)
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It\'s a 10/100 Mbps Ethernetcard. Pretty standard - you might not need a 100 Mbps connection for your internet connection, but if you have a LAN up, 100 Mbps is all the better.
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indeed it is
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Well, seeing how popular FF is, I\'m not surprised that sold somewhat well. The real question is can any other game do the same on PS2.
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GTA3, for one
there\'s probably more copies of GTA3 floating around then there are xbox\'s
watch in a few weeks as MOH:Frontline blows up (no pun intended)
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Forget about GTA3 - GT4 may be the best example when it launches (yes, I know it\'s a loooooong way off), but what does anyone want more? Gran Turismo online... WOW!
GT3 sold more than 8 million copies as of yet - and GT4 would be THE reason to buy the addon.
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edit - when seven\'s right, he\'s right. :)
I will move it to my FFXI post so as to not have the confusion :)
Eric Jacob
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What had this thread to do with GameCube sales numbers?
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gee i go away for a week to do my Final Uni year Dissertation and come back to see that its still open seasion for the X box.
Ah nice to see somethings never change :D