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Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Coredweller on July 27, 2002, 12:26:08 PM
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If you haven\'t heard, a Ukrainian SU-27 crashed at an airshow in Lviv, killing around 78 spectators and injuring about 115 more. The video is very scary, you can get to it by clicking on the link below. This is really horrifying and tragic. Airshows are dangerous. Airshows featuring old Soviet aircraft operated by the underfunded airforce of a country that was formerly part of the Soviet Union are REALLY dangerous.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/786332.asp
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fnm%2F20020727%2Fmdf78763.jpg&hash=99a4a779699ac1f8e5a3c7e0234038f08dc467a8)
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Wow... extraordinary.
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Looks like another Rammstein...
That reminds me of a story my ex-girlfriend told me: Her sister was at the Rammstein show and went home about 15 minutes before the aircrafts crashed.
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Engine failure.. or the ace pilot stalled the plane over the crowd..
Good going.
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That is so terrible. Are those things even designed for such crazy manuvers?
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Originally posted by Coredweller
Airshows featuring old Soviet aircraft
Old maybe, but it\'s a known fact that russian crafts are more durable than American planes. And the SU-27 is one of, if the most manuverable fighter jet in the world.
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i read that yesterday, and what happened to all those people was just horrible.
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Originally posted by macabre
Looks like another Rammstein...
That reminds me of a story my ex-girlfriend told me: Her sister was at the Rammstein show and went home about 15 minutes before the aircrafts crashed.
:laughing:
I lived in Ramstein. Went to high school and middle school there. I know which airshow your talking about, people still bring it up sometimes.
Ah... my home away from home in Germany. :D
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Originally posted by Vapor Snake
:laughing:
I lived in Ramstein. Went to high school and middle school there. I know which airshow your talking about, people still bring it up sometimes.
Ah... my home away from home in Germany. :D
man i was so confused at first i thought you guys were talking about ramstien the band then i was "a plane crashed into the crowd at a ramstien concert ?" but then i figured it out
vapor snake im guessing youre and army brat then huh
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Air Force brat. :D
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Now thats wierd. Someone in here said the SU-37 was highly manueverable yet the news story said such heavier fighter jets aren\'t meant for low flying air shows.
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The SU-27 is one of the best fighters in the world. I have no idea how it\'s expected for perform at such a low altitude though.
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I saw the video yesterday night on TV, it\'s scary, a big tragedy... poor people.
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I was in the pub last night when it came on the TV screen.
Shocking.
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saw it on the news the other night.... man it was so bad......... they were saying something about safety out there isnt that bug, and if in the western world, where safety is more of a issue, then less peep would of been hurt
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Originally posted by nO-One
Old maybe, but it\'s a known fact that russian crafts are more durable than American planes. And the SU-27 is one of, if the most manuverable fighter jet in the world.
Only being out classed by the F-14, F-15, The F-16, and the F-18. Although the Ukraninan pilots train harder Their technology sucks. So it is about even, although the Americans would come out on top.
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It\'s in our newspaper and they have it when the plane is just crashing.
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Originally posted by jinxx
Only being out classed by the F-14, F-15, The F-16, and the F-18. Although the Ukraninan pilots train harder Their technology sucks. So it is about even, although the Americans would come out on top.
I think the SU-33 is better than the SU-27. Or is the only difference that the SU-33 is able to takeoff from aircraft carriers?
SU-27 Flanker:
Range: 1,800 km cruise radius 4,000 km maximum range
Payload: 6000kg
Maximum Speed: Mach 2.35
Thrust Agumented 25000kg
Max G load: -3.0 and +9.0
Maximum rate of turn: 22.5°/sec Sustained
Maximum rate of turn: 28.5°/sec Instant
F-14A Tomcat:
Max Range: 3220 km
Payload: N/A
Maximum Speed: Mach 1.88
Thrust Agumented: 9,405 kg per engine
Max G load: N/A
Maximum rate of turn: N/A
F-15 Eagle:
Range: 5556 km
Payload: 8584 kg
Maximum Speed: Mach 2.5
Thrust Agumented: 11,250 kg per engine
Max G load: N/A
Maximum rate of turn: N/A
F-16 Fighting Falcon:
Range: 3,900 km
Payload: N/A
Maximum Speed: Mach 2.05
Thrust Agumented: 8165kg
Max G load: N/A
Maximum rate of turn: N/A
F-18 Hornet:
Range: (ferry) 2,844 km
Payload: 5113 kg
Maximum Speed: Mach 1.8
Thrust Agumented: 8,027 kg per engine
Max G load: N/A
Maximum rate of turn: N/A
However Ive read reports from pilots that say SU-27 clearly outmenovers every other fighter :)
And the russian Su-27 is also very durable. The Russian have had no technical problems with this fighter. (IIRC the american fighters crash quite often?)
And just for fun ;)
SAAB JAS 39 Gripen:
Range: 3000 km (ferry range)
Payload: 5300 kg
Maximum Speed: Mach 2
Thrust Agumented: 2948 kg
Max G load: +9.0
Maximum rate of turn: N/A
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I personally think that these military airshows should be banned.
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I might be going to a airshow next week. :eyemouth:
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Lets not forget about all the US aircraft that no one knows about yet. For example, Aurora and all the other planes based on reverse-engineered UFO technology. :) Coming soon to a multinational police action near you.
Comparing the SU-27 to the F-16 & F-18 is like comparing a VW Beetle to a Ford Escort. Irrelevant! :p
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The funny thing is, you all actually belive this plane is a piece of shyte. It\'s a very VERY good plane, higly manuverable, and a good fighter in every aspect. It can easily match american planes.
Hell, after a flight these planes are just parked and left for the next flight, while every american plane is taken a part after just about every flight to make sure something didn\'t brake. There is something to be said about safety true, but do they have so little faith in their technoligy ;)
And this plane is of just as old a design as most american planes, the only new fighter to come out recently is the F-22 Raptor, however they won\'t enter service till like, 2010 or something.
This was a simple accident, not something caused by inferiour Russian technoligy.
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Originally posted by nO-One
The funny thing is, you all actually belive this plane is a piece of shyte. It\'s a very VERY good plane, higly manuverable, and a good fighter in every aspect. It can easily match american planes.
Hell, after a flight these planes are just parked and left for the next flight, while every american plane is taken a part after just about every flight to make sure something didn\'t brake. There is something to be said about safety true, but do they have so little faith in their technoligy ;)
And this plane is of just as old a design as most american planes, the only new fighter to come out recently is the F-22 Raptor, however they won\'t enter service till like, 2010 or something.
This was a simple accident, not something caused by inferiour Russian technoligy.
Exacly :)
Btw, I saw a program on the SU-27 and SU-33. They were filming a Russian airbase where you could see Russian SU-27s parked on the grass because they didn’t have any space in the hangars :laughing:
And the runway had all kinds of rubbish on it.. Yet they had no problems flying them.
They invited some American pilot who got to fly one of them and he was very impressed..
After that they visited a American base, they said every morning they had personnel sweep the runway clean of rubbish so it wouldn’t get sucked into the engines.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bm.com.ua%2F%7Ebog%2Fimages%2Fexhibiti%2Ffull%2Fsu-27-2.jpg&hash=3a89ee2c4b5bee886aa6bfc785af399ff3df5eff)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.military.cz%2Frussia%2Fair%2Fsuchoj%2FSu_27%2FAirAction41_19_3.jpg&hash=57d6a075699c1ee2609c40cdbe5f380a9e62e4a4)
Btw, the accident didn’t have anything to do with the SU-27 itself. The pilots are getting charged for wreckless flying. ;)
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My theory has always been that it\'s not the Sukhoi design that\'s the problem with the SU-27. The Russians always built their aircraft very rugged and durable to operate in extreme conditions, as you said. The problem is with the underfunded support and maintenance provided by these former soviet satellites. If the engine(s) failed, it\'s probably because of shoddy maintenance. Maybe they SHOULD have taken the plane apart after every flight, then perhaps it wouldn\'t have crashed into a crowd of people.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.airforce-technology.com%2Fprojects%2Fsu27%2Fimages%2Fsu27_7.jpg&hash=825e1fb7c1aa8c45ed49cea61ce40a21a36d3e03)
Check out the analog gauges! Old School!
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Ukraine military has had alot of bad luck recently.
A few months ago they shot down a Russian airliner with a missile. A few years ago they launched a missile which they lost track of and it ended up in some houses.
This time I think its the pilots fault.. See how low they flew?
About the gauges.. What if one of these displays gets FUBAR? ;)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.canit.se%2F%7Egriffon%2Faviation%2Fgripen%2Fcockpit%2Fcockpit.jpg&hash=9c0494186ba703a5c4bb7df82af22fe25ec48a8f)
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Originally posted by fastson
Ukraine military has had alot of bad luck recently.
A few months ago they shot down a Russian airliner with a missile. A few years ago they launched a missile which they lost track of and it ended up in some houses.
This time I think its the pilots fault.. See how low they flew?
About the gauges.. What if one of these displays gets FUBAR? ;)
HAH hah ha h I knew that was not a US plane. What does "SAKRAD" mean? I guess it means "Get my ass out of this plane as fast as possible"
Check out the SU-27 though... Don\'t you just love those buckles that strap your feet to the rudder pedals??? Hah gotta love those!
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Säkrad means Secure..
It bet it has something to do with the Ejection-system ;)
Yeah, very nice cockpit.
I own the SU-27 Flanker game (old version, not the new 2.0 version)
One of the best simulators IMO (its made by Russians btw).
http://www.aeronautics.ru/flankersc.htm
I remember playing it on my old 486.. Whenever I got close to the ground or used my guns it slowed down like hell :D
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One plane. F-117A. End of discussion. Stealth fighter. Can\'t be beat by that pos.
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Originally posted by jinxx
One plane. F-117A. End of discussion. Stealth fighter. Can\'t be beat by that pos.
Bah, you cant keep bringing up new fighters all the time.
SU-27 isnt even comparable to the F-117 because its older and its not even stealth.
IIRC the F-117 cant carry any bigger weapons either.
Gotta compare the fighters of the same class. :)
Oh and F-117 isnt stealth anymore.. We can see it on radar now ;)
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The SU-27 was so safe that he took it into the ground.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Bozco
The SU-27 was so safe he took it into the ground.:rolleyes:
He forgot they took out the airbag :D
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Originally posted by Bozco
The SU-27 was so safe that he took it into the ground.:rolleyes:
Blah blah blah :rolleyes:
My take is that either:
a) the plane wasn\'t maintained correctly cause of lack of funds
b) the pilot was a POS pilot
Considering the SU-27 was designed in the early 70\'ies it\'s definatly a remarkable piece of engineering. No matter if it\'s Russian or American.
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i just wanna add my 2 cents about the plane, the su-27 matches the performance and abilty of any other american fighter and in some cases it surpasses the abilities of some american fighter jets.
and as for the F-117(hehe) the su-27 would kick that planes ass only advantage that the F-117 has is its stealth coating
but here\'s a plane that would whoop the su-27\'s a$$
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ff22rap.virtualave.net%2FPics%2Ff22_63.jpg&hash=43504f6526a40a97fb8271f3bffe2d00a6211d8a)
teh "F-22 Raptor"
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Seems like u guys know a lot about this airplanes... and how "easily" they are to manoeuvre. So... any of u tried any of em ? Or did u just read it on the internett. Ahh... nm, I guess u all are pro pilots :)
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I guess you can\'t know anything if you haven\'t tried it yourself? So how do you know anything about Battlefield 1942? And so on... sometimes you need to rely on other people\'s opinions (i.e. professional engineers and pilots etc. in this case).
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Originally posted by Agnino
Seems like u guys know a lot about this airplanes... and how "easily" they are to manoeuvre. So... any of u tried any of em ? Or did u just read it on the internett. Ahh... nm, I guess u all are pro pilots :)
Yes Im Captain Fast of ther CCCP Airforce :p
No, I read tests done with the aircrafts, pilots opinions ect. And the factsheets are just taken from different sites.
And F-22 Raptor is one of my fav planes... in Ace Combat 4. :D
Perhaps we will see that SU-37A IRL? ;)
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Originally posted by Samwise
Blah blah blah :rolleyes:
My take is that either:
a) the plane wasn\'t maintained correctly cause of lack of funds
b) the pilot was a POS pilot
Your just guessing. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Bozco
Your just guessing. :rolleyes:
As are you. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Samwise
As are you. :rolleyes:
I didn\'t guess on one thing. :snore: Somebody commented on the plane having massive manueverabilty and I said thats its so safe that the pilot took it into the ground. I didn\'t guess on what happened at all. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Bozco
I didn\'t guess on one thing. :snore: Somebody commented on the plane having massive manueverabilty and I said thats its so safe that the pilot took it into the ground. I didn\'t guess on what happened at all. :rolleyes:
Bah, we can continue forever with this . But you said:
"The SU-27 was so safe that he took it into the ground." - so you KNOW this? Because you say you weren\'t guessing, thus this must be something you know for sure. :p
Anyway, I\'m done commenting on this. Do, say, feel as you wish. I don\'t give a crap.
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I\'m glad you see it my way. ;)
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What type of Air Shows rules do they have in Ukraine? Pilots are allowed to fly 50 feet directly above the audience?
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Originally posted by jinxx
One plane. F-117A. End of discussion. Stealth fighter. Can\'t be beat by that pos.
Yup, a flying brick can easily beat that plane :rolleyes:
And yes, the F-22 which is a new generation of fighters could beat the SU-27, but then again it is an highly manuverable stealth jet fighter, whereas the SU-27 has no stealth.
It\'s just funny how the lot of you assume it\'s a bad jet because it\'s Russian, but keep in mind that was the power that could have won had their country been handled differently.
Hell they still have one of the strongest army in the world and could still take America on.
And since you all are so convinced the F-22 is perfect search google, you can find a number of pics and video\'s of crashing F-22\'s.
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I don\'t see any anti russian comments but I do sense anti-american people in here.
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Originally posted by Bozco
I don\'t see any anti russian comments but I do sense anti-american people in here.
No, it\'s rather anti-anti-Russian. :)
But besides the angry comments nO-One\'s got a point. It seems some people won\'t ackknowledge the SU-27 being a great fighter because either
a) It\'s not American, or
b) It\'s Russian
And that\'s just BS. But luckily I believe you\'re smarter than that Bozco.
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The only person that commented on it was jinxx. Then some of you guys showed your true colors. But then again saying one plane is better than another doesn\'t really matter. None of us will ever fly them. ;)
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Don\'t give me that shit Bozco. It\'s not about me hating America or some BS like that. It\'s just about me credit where credit is due. If anything that\'s less racist than your comments about \'people showing their true colors\'.
EDIT: Oh, you edited your post a little. Better throw in a smiley here to show you that I\'m not angry or anything. ;)
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Yea I noticed I came off wrong so I immediatly edited it. I had hoped you didn\'t see it yet.
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Yep.. There are some ani-Russian vibrations in here.
Going by some peoples logic one crash/accident means the whole countries arsenal suck. (even if its being used by a poor country that cant barely afford servicing the aircrafts)
That would make the AH-64 one of the worst helicopters in the world, because it had 6 crashes in one year. The AH-64 was even grounded because of some problems.
Now lets not forget all the other planes.
F-16 which has had over 36 accidents.
F-15 over 18 accidents.
ect..
Ops! :shy:
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There have been many many accidents at airshows all over the world. US military airshows are no exception. The difference is that I always seem to hear about more fatalities coming out of the foreign airshows.... maybe the US pilots usually manage to aim it into the trees before they bail out?
As I said before, I don\'t think that russian planes are crappier than US aircraft. They just come from a different design philosophy. I blame this on lousy maintenance or pilot error.
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I\'m still wondering where the anti-russian comments are at in this thread.
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the su27 is a great air superiority fighter. its great usage of thrust vectoring allows it to pull extremely high g\'s, perform stunts such as the "cobra".. other such planes such as the f-15 eagle, or the fa-18 hornet, or even the higly agile f-16 cannot preform many of these moves because of the strain put on the wings of the airplane.
the russians were alot farther ahead in air superiority technology than we were, then we outspent them on nukes, and they went bankrupt, lost all of their money, couldnt fight. meanwhile we were still playing catch up, and after many unsucessful tests, in cooperation with lockheed martin\'s skunkworks, we created the f-22 which hasnt been put into full constuction of squadrons until earlier this year... so go figure, it took us till about now to get our fighter that is better than the su27 off the ground. yeah, if they were smart they would have "owned" us.
dont forget, they got to space first....
all in all both planes rock. i want one, any of you guys willing to donate? eh ill just join the airforce
(god i cant type well its been along time)
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Originally posted by Samwise
I guess you can\'t know anything if you haven\'t tried it yourself? So how do you know anything about Battlefield 1942? And so on... sometimes you need to rely on other people\'s opinions (i.e. professional engineers and pilots etc. in this case).
Yes I have tried it, and thats why Im looking forward to it. :/
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Hey hey, I don\'t hate America at all, I love all you yanks :p
It\'s just comments like "Way better than that POS" and stuff that sets me off.
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Funny...
This thread was supposed to be about the tragedy and it quickly turned into a Russa vs US military debate...
I don\'t think the victim\'s or their friends and families give a crap...
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Originally posted by Ashford
Funny...
This thread was supposed to be about the tragedy and it quickly turned into a Russa vs US military debate...
I don\'t think the victim\'s or their friends and families give a crap...
Funny...
Somehow I doubt any of us truely gives a crap about the tradegy or their friends and families.
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Now we know it was pilot error (just heard it on the news).. Like I said ;)