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Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Unicron! on July 31, 2002, 07:25:54 AM
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I ve seen the "Hideo Kojima over-exploited ...." thread and I wonder why does everybody hate Hideo?
MGS and MGS2 are some of the best games ever.The only disadvandages are their lenght and the huge cut scenes.
The plot??Some say it was bad written in MGS2.
I think its too complex.Not bad written.The plots were full of messages.
Some parts of their stories are taken fom reality.Hideo Kojima just exaggerated them and created a fictional story on them to make it more shoking so he could transmit the messages and meanings of the plot to us more effectively(Through exaggeration its easier to make someone understand the meanings).
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because ...............................................
some people just love to bitch about anything
or
some people are just trolls
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Originally posted by mm
because ...............................................
some people just love to bitch about anything
or
some people are just trolls
Im with the first one :)
I dont hate Kojima. But Im still disappointed with MGS:S. Why? Id much rather see a new game instead of some rehash that I completed several months ago.
I was hoping for MGS3, and I got MGS:S :crap:
The only thing about MGS:S that sounds interesting is Snakes Tales. (IMO)
I dont think it was Hideos idea to do a MGSS though. Konami had a deal with MS to release MGSX. MGS2 was exclusive to PS2 so they made MGS:S (and at the same time released it on the PS2 to make sure it will sell enough).
Btw, he said he was leaving.. Didn’t he?
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a deal with m$
there\'s the problem right there
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Originally posted by fastson
Im with the first one :)
I dont hate Kojima. But Im still disappointed with MGS:S. Why? Id much rather see a new game instead of some rehash that I completed several months ago.
I was hoping for MGS3, and I got MGS:S :crap:
The only thing about MGS:S that sounds interesting is Snakes Tales. (IMO)
I dont think it was Hideos idea to do a MGSS though. Konami had a deal with MS to release MGSX. MGS2 was exclusive to PS2 so they made MGS:S (and at the same time released it on the PS2 to make sure it will sell enough).
Btw, he said he was leaving.. Didn’t he?
Fastson Hideo has stated that MGS2:S is for true MG fans who can\'t wait 2 years for a sequel. He said in an article that he\'d like to do a MG game one year a filler game the next then a sequel the next year. That means a new MG every 2 years! If you goto any Metal Gear forum you\'ll see that fans can\'t wait for Substance and some are buying an X-Box :GASP: just to get it first. Since it is exclusive on the X-Box until 2003 when it becomes available for both PS2 and PC.
I am glad they are releasing these filler games inbetween. Of course I am a diehard fan and usually get bored with playing Metal Gear 100 times from start to finish. :D
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I think saying "everyone" hates him is alittle bit of an overstatement. The fact is, I don\'t hate Hideo. He has produced some fine games. I just think that the MGS series is in general over-hyped and not worth the fanbase that it has. I also think Hideo is highly over-rated as a creative mind in this industry. That is just *my* personal opinion.
Hideo is by no means a terrible developer. He just isn\'t a truly amazing developer at this time . Who knows what he\'ll come out with in the future.
On another note, Hideo\'s games for the most part just don\'t appeal to me. Sneaking around and dealing with highly convulted stories to get a "meaing" just doesn\'t sit well with me. Fact is, I prefer my games with zero story for the most part.
;)
Once again, I\'ll note that this is all personal opinion, to hopefully save me from the oncoming flames of MGS fans.
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Isn\'t this the second thread about this. The first one was lame, in any case. Metal Gear Solid Series has now become one of the greatest of all time. It\'s unique, maybe it got a little ovehyped, but there is no need to bitch about it. GOD, let what is be.
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Originally posted by Speed Demon
I am glad they are releasing these filler games inbetween. Of course I am a diehard fan and usually get bored with playing Metal Gear 100 times from start to finish. :D
:rolleyes: Hmmm, imo filler games can be a deathstab to solid
gamefranchises. Most of the time stuff like that waters it all
down. Right now, alot of ppl say they\'ll buy MGS:S anyway, but
I question that....
As for Hideo Kojima ; I think he needs a BIG vacation or he
should do something totally different, like another type of game
or maybe a comedy movie. \'Why a comedy movie\' ? Well, becuz
I think a good director should be able to handle anything, and
imo the Metal Gear games take themselves pretty serious, in
spite of the numerous jokes which they contain
(although some of that is getting old in MGS2SOL :snore: )
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Gee you guys are hard to please. First everyone bitches about how Rayden was gay and they got duped into being him when they fully expected to be Snake. Now that you actually do get Snake, its like "oh yeah, MS convinced Kojama to do a rehash". If it was just Rayden with new gay muscle shirts and pink poney tails with tutu\'s, then its a rehash! But its not, the next MGS release actually has compelling new features.
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IMO, Hideo is brilliant and I can see why he\'s getting the attention, that IMO he deserves. He\'s made a game with MGS (on PSX) that has a great appeal and is very story driven. It\'s the first of its kind to really introduce true espionage in 3d where the main object isn\'t kill kill kill but to really use your brains of how to get passed those soldiers without drawing as much attention as possible. Of course you can go off in the almost standard manner with the weapons drawn, but in MGS - that won\'t get you far. The next thing that makes him brilliant as a director is the realism involved in the game. The detail. It\'s just amazing how much effort has gone into this game (and with that I am primarely refering to MGS:SOL) and I bet, most people don\'t even notice those details. Like the soldiers, how they react and how they communicate with eachother. Then the interactivity with objects around you. It just isn\'t dead - but you can effectively use the whole environment for your strageties or turn them against you. That\'s what makes it so amazing. Sure there might be a lot of cut scenes - but, this is a game that masterly combines an action movie with a game. And at that, it isn\'t a cheap B plot storyline either, but much better. And if anyone wants to argue this, then they probably didn\'t get the storyline - it\'s that simple.
Now to the main part: is he overrated? I\'d say no... the MGS2 has proven to be marvel in almost every aspect and therefore it isn\'t a suprise that it\'s one of the fastest selling games outthere. I don\'t know the actual sales for these 2 games, but they prolly sold more than most other games outthere. Sure one can argue that Suzuki or others may be better, but I really think there\'s no comparasment really. Their both great at what they do and both deserve a lot of respect. I can see how people can dislike either games, but IMO, that shouldn\'t end in disrespect for such an achievement.
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Errm, I was prolly th\' first to seriously debate Kojima in that thread and never said that I hated him.
I\'ve played a good deal of MG2 (MSX emulation) and MGS.. and they were great games. Kojima\'s fine.
My view is just that he\'s a very limited man in the way of genres, and the mainstream over-rates him based on th\' two Metal Gear Solid games. Partially because they\'re very movie-like.. and that pisses me off.
Games aren\'t meant to be movies.. this is something that I wish most journalists would realize..
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Blade, why aren\'t games allowed to become more movie like? Is it the realism that\'s bugging you? Or the storyline?
IMO, interactive movies is sooner or later going to come. I mean, how cool is it when instead of just watching, you can actually decide for yourself what you want to do?
Oh and as I said in my last thread: my main understanding of games were always that games are a different form of entertainment. Nothing there about how a game must be, to be qualified as one...
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Originally posted by Knotter8
As for Hideo Kojima ; I think he needs a BIG vacation or he
should do something totally different, like another type of game
or maybe a comedy movie. \'Why a comedy movie\' ? Well, becuz
I think a good director should be able to handle anything, and
imo the Metal Gear games take themselves pretty serious, in
spite of the numerous jokes which they contain
(although some of that is getting old in MGS2SOL :snore: )
Actually Hideo said that he is a big fan of western comedy.
MGSs has some comedy moments in them.I would like to see a Hot Shots style game that satirizes ither games.That would be nice.
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To be honest, when it comes down to this debate, it all ends up being one thing. Two types of people. Those who don\'t mind as games progress towards interactive movies and movie style storylines and those who hate the fact we are moving towards that. If you don\'t mind it, I\'m sure you apperciate Kojima\'s viewpoint and if you do mind it, than you are likely to think the MGS series is over-rated.
I personally fall in the latter catergory. I dislike the fact that games are moving towards interactive movies and movie style storylines. Its my personal preference though.
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Seven: The more realistic games get, the better.. IMO.
If a game is like a movie and has the gameplay to back it up, that\'s fine. We\'re not really at a point where holo-decks are possible, though.. and the mainstream seems to be mis-informed about what makes a good game.
My entire argument was kind of pointless.. I was saying: If MGS2/Kojima are in Newsweek, why aren\'t the Halo team? They superficially discuss video games.. they don\'t dig as deep as they do with other forms of entertainment.
Like this week, they have a big section about th\' creator of The Sixth Sense.. and they went in-depth with his coverage. They don\'t do this for video games (yet) thus I don\'t think they\'re serious about them. Okay?
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I don\'t mind interactive movies. I just don\'t think the media should shrug off what built this industry.
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Hideo is one of the best programmers in my opinion and made some classic games as well.
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Blade, you can\'t be misinformed on what is a good game or not, its called opinion ;)
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This is such an over-rated topic.
We\'ve already determined Hideo\'s good points and bad points.
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Bob: Hehe, yeah.. in general it\'s a preference thing.
The fact that Kojima is the first game development person I\'ve ever seen in Newsweek doesn\'t help that though.
It just gives me the (potentially false) impression that Newsweek doesn\'t play too many games.. since MGS2 wasn\'t exactly the apex of gaming last year. He just seemed to get th\' spotlight because MGS2 was arguably the most movie-like of any game last year. I didn\'t see any praise for other developers.. just Kojima.
Not even his stinking development team was featured or even mentioned.. not that I would expect them to be.
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What happened to all the talk of passing on the series to others so he could be free to develop new projects?
I read he enjoys playing Pokemon with his five year old son, that\'s enough to make him a great guy in my book.
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In a magazine I dont remember which(could be newsweek?) kojima was characterized as one of the most important people among novel writers,movie directors etc.
Which could mean it wasnt just the movie approach of the game.It was also the plot.
I dont think there was ever a game with such a plot.With such themes.Such subjects.EVER.Even if it was less of an "interactive movie",had less cut scenes,if it was longer,had more features etc IMO it would have still been in Newsweek.
Games like halo although are great,revolutionary in their way, can not be compared with a book or a movie because of their plot.The plot exists as an excuse for the enviroments,the enemy,the main character,the allies etc.As for MGS1 and 2 the plot does not exist as an excuse.The game depends on the plot and the plot depends on the meanings and messages the "creator" wants to send to the "viewers".
Not all movies win awards.Not all movies have special articles deticated exclusively to them in mags(check what kind of these movies are most of them and their themes).The same is for books.And in games MGS:SOL happens to be the first.
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And MG cannot be compared with any book of merit. Thanks for the laugh.
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Hey Blade, I guess that\'s your opinion.. Personally I thought MGS2 was one of the greatest games ever. The plot was exceptional and I personally don\'t get why people were confused by it :confused:
But if the game turned you off because of the plot, perhaps you should try and play through the game again and ignore the plot and just play the game. The problem with the game is that it is too involved with the story and all the gameplay elements arent necessary like in the first one. Which is why I feel for some people it\'s much better to play through and just have fun with all the gameplay elements.
The worst example of this cinematic style gaming from Kojima is Z.O.E. Fantastic gameplay ruined by the annoying story and repetitive battles. They should have made it much more like a standard Mech game with upgrades and such ramble ramble ramble ramble. I\'m done. :)
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Originally posted by Watchdog
And MG cannot be compared with any book of merit. Thanks for the laugh.
Hey!!And any movie in the world can not be compared with any book of merit.
AND I AM TALKING ABOUT THE PLOT!!THE STORY!!NOT HOW GOOD WRITTEN IT IS!!nothing can be compared with a book at that.
MGS is the closest think you can get in games.
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I haven\'t played MGS2, Bob.. I\'m just going on the multiple impressions and reviews I read when it came out. :)
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Originally posted by Unicron!
Hey!!And any movie in the world can not be compared with any book of merit.
AND I AM TALKING ABOUT THE PLOT!!THE STORY!!NOT HOW GOOD WRITTEN IT IS!!nothing can be compared with a book at that.
MGS is the closest think you can get in games.
No. There are very fine movies that compare very favourably to books. I would rank Citizen Kane up there with any book. I don\'t know what point you are trying to make or why you are getting so upset.
You want to talk about plot. Okay, MG is shitty and cliched and overdone in that aspect too. Have you read a book? I don\'t know why people around here prop that game up as a marvel of narrantology. They should try and make games or hire writers with talent.
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Originally posted by Watchdog
No. There are very fine movies that compare very favourably to books. I would rank Citizen Kane up there with any book. I don\'t know what point you are trying to make or why you are getting so upset.
You want to talk about plot. Okay, MG is shitty and cliched and overdone in that aspect too. Have you read a book? I don\'t know why people around here prop that game up as a marvel of narrantology. They should try and make games or hire writers with talent.
But Orsen Welles is dead.. ;)
Actually I don\'t really think MGS2\'s plot is cliched.. I think certain aspects of it are for sure, but overall i found it a compelling conspiracy theory with originality.. I know you\'ll never agree to this tho :)
But if you don\'t like the plot, go play through the game again and ignore the plot and just have FUN! That\'s the problem with it, its so narrative driven that it doesnt let you play the game fully.. or even about 5% of the gameplay it offers. As much as I personally loved the story, the best fun was fighting alongside Snake, and just playing around with the guards (trying to take out a heap of guards using an automatic door and claymores = :D:D:D)
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Hey Watchdog, as great of a film that Citizen Kane isdo you really think it\'s storyline is superior to any game? Or as good as Any book? I mean.. A young poor boy goes to the city under the care of a rich man. He then starts a newspaper business, gets rich and starts a bigger newspaper business.. it grows into an empire and he becomes one of (the?) richest men in america.. he dies and his last word is "Rosebud".. so a reporter tries to find out what "Rosebud" is..
That surely (at least in my opinion) isnt better than some games, isnt better than some books, it isnt even better than some movies. The point that Unicron was trying to make is the one I am about to make. Are you really engrossed by Citizen Kane\'s story? Or the way the story is told? Because all medias (games, movies and books) require different techniques to tell their stories (although some examples try and blend techniques).. I don\'t see why you should discriminate against a games story (unless it actually is horrible) just because it isnt told with the same techniques as a movie or book.. because it cant... if it tries it will lose the gameplay which is so crucial to games (see. MGS2)
Or perhaps it\'s just the style of the story being told? Do you not like the style of a story like Final Fantasy 7? What type of books or movies do you think are the epitome of storyline? Do you think Lord of the Rings has a great story? etc. etc.
I\'m very curious in all this as you can see :). But all I can say is, if I can still be entertained by a Videogame\'s storyline and you can\'t.. then I\'d hate to be you :) No offense..
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Hmmm, when I was in Artsacademy we had Movie analysis classes. It covered the whole lot, form Eisenstein to the
Hollywood studio system. Yeah, every week we had to see
a "classic". Citizen Kane we did see, and you know what ?
I almost fell asleep :snore: during this movie. Of course I
recognize what made this movie have such status, but MGS
kept me awake very long instead of making me sleepy.
Yeah, it\'s a bit cliched story, but the way it\'s intergrated into
the game makes it fresh and good. MGS2 made me a bit
sleepy though....
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You can reduce any story to make it sound like complete and utter trash. No story retains its integrity when reduced to a few sentences. CK has depth of plot and character, richness of dialogue and compelling notions. It succeeds despite avoiding sensationalism and plot contrivences.
There is a very good reason why CK is considered by almost everyone who is anyone the best movie ever made. You are entitled to your opinion, but I\'m not going to argue its worth for the same reasons why I wouldn\'t argue about Shakespeare\'s worth--if we can\'t share that common ground then there is nothing I can say to change your mind.
Too many movies today rely on the Sixth Sense trick ending (Beautiful Mind our so called movie of the year even relied on this lazy man\'s way of writing).
And I\'m being misunderstood. I do not hate VG stories. I merely protest when someone aligns VG storytelling with the greats of lit and movies. There is no comparison. Perhaps, the best VG story could compare with Ludlum or Deaver--and truth be told I do enjoy reading these sorts of novels as a sort of desert--but they are hack genre writers, following a formula and churning out page turners. In literary circles they are maligned, but at home, on a comfy chair, they are a sort of guilty pleasure.
But VGs can\'t compare with even these books because there isn\'t the oportunity to really get into development of character and situation. After all, it\'s a video game and gamers want to blow things up and kill people.
Movies hold a similar advantage. For one thing, VG makers can\'t compare with the quality of the CG or picture. Also, directors have skilled actors and writers at their disposal. VG makers do not. Lastly, movie makers do not have to worry about gameplay, they are telling a story. That\'s why movie->game projects always turn out to be crap.
VGs should be played or they should hire people with talent.
LOTR is a masterpiece; one of the most important achievements in literary history. The story/plot is fine (although it\'s been ruined by thousands of hacks that have turned it into a cliche). What Tolkein did is create an entire world. Some would say VGs do this too. I laugh at these people. Tolkein created histories, languages (complete and learnable), and locals. Every character in the book can be traced back generations upon generations. There are stories attatched to every character (if you read his notes). It is ambitious and successful in its ambition and that is why it still stands up today.
In truth, I\'d hate to be you. I play VGs to play video games. I read for plot and story. If you are truly entertained by the story/plot of a VG then you are inpoverished in culture, and bereft of a sense of transcendence, granduer and craft. I have read the very best of what has been written and thought, I have been enriched by the finest minds our world has known. I really don\'t need the pity. So while I often laugh away the plot and story of a VG, I need only to walk up to a book shelf and have my hunger sated.
Look what happened when Square tried to make a movie. It nearly ruined them. Because without game play to hide their atrocious plot and story telling abilities, they were revealed as pompus fools and hacks of the worst kind. They\'ll never make another movie again, and I don\'t lament that. Just as I don\'t wish Speilburg and McLeod would drop thier director\'s cap and pen respectively and make VGs.
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"I have read the very best of what has been written and thought, I have been enriched by the finest minds our world has known"
And having absorbed so much you learned to be justified in making a habit of openly showing contempt for your fellow man and all works that fail to live up to your own narrowly fixed arbitrary standards? I think you need to go back and read the worlds greatest literature again. You\'ve missed a key point most of those works went to great lengths to establish.
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Perhaps you like movies more than games?As a movie it could be the best.But we are not comparing MGS with CK.Two different things.Two different techniques.Bob explained what I was trying to say pretty well.
Also does anyone beleive that CK is better or as good as a good book?Have you read a book on CK?Could be the best movie.Not the best from games,books and movies.
But VGs can\'t compare with even these books because there isn\'t the oportunity to really get into development of character and situation. After all, it\'s a video game and gamers want to blow things up and kill people.
MGS aint that kind of game.Killing people is an addition.Thats why its called stealth game.Kojima said he didnt want to have people kill.Its an antiwar game.Personally I never playied MGSs for killing people.Each game is playied for a different reason.I dont think games like FF are liked because you can blow things and kill people.Its action is too slow and has no violence.
Some games can affect people emotionally because you can be the character that lives in the game.Playing the role of Raiden for example and then realizing his past.There are children in these world that are recruited into army, and men with childhood trauma because of their past as war tools.
(I am not saying that makes it as valuabple as a book.A book does better the job.MGS just does it better than any other game and its the nearest thing u can get from games.)
Even if games can not reach movies in that department thats not the case.And I beleive that games arent better than books.The case is that MGS is the nearest thing you can get.No one said games can be better than books or movies.Its the nearest think you can get and the best effort in games in that department.
That\'s why movie->game projects always turn out to be crap.
The same happens with games that turn into movies.And books that turn into movies.
What Tolkein did is create an entire world. Some would say VGs do this too. I laugh at these people. Tolkein created histories, languages (complete and learnable), and locals. Every character in the book can be traced back generations upon generations. There are stories attatched to every character (if you read his notes). It is ambitious and successful in its ambition and that is why it still stands up today.
Nobody said any game could be as good as Tolkien\'s achivement .The same reason why VGs fail in this department is the the same why movies fail.They cant be too lenghty or as detailed and descriptive.BOOKS MOVIES and GAMES are different things.They shouldnt be compared with the same criteria.They work differently,they have different ways of telling a story.
In truth, I\'d hate to be you. I play VGs to play video games. I read for plot and story. If you are truly entertained by the story/plot of a VG then you are inpoverished in culture, and bereft of a sense of transcendence, granduer and craft. I have read the very best of what has been written and thought, I have been enriched by the finest minds our world has known. I really don\'t need the pity. So while I often laugh away the plot and story of a VG, I need only to walk up to a book shelf and have my hunger sated.
MGS is the best effort in games.I do not play Video Games beleiving they are as good as books.Books are better.As a game
is the best effort and its the only one that tried to do so.
If there was a book on MGS:SOL I would have bought it and enjoyied it more than the game.I read books.Perhaps not as much as u do but I can tell the difference from a book and a VG.
I ll say what i ve been saying before.MGS is just the best effort you can get in games
I apreciate MGSs efforts as a game.
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There are many books that became movies that are as good or better than the book. Yes books and movies are two different things, but the disiplines overlap and compliment each other. VGs have an oportunity too, just like film, to capture imaginations, but they don\'t. Movies start from scripts, scripts written by proffessional writers.
VG are often written and coded by the same people. If devs would go and hire proffessional writers like movie studios do, we may be seeing some compelling content. But that doesn\'t happen, and we get crap.
MGS may be the best effort, but it\'s still laughable.
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And having absorbed so much you learned to be justified in making a habit of openly showing contempt for your fellow man and all works that fail to live up to your own narrowly fixed arbitrary standards? I think you need to go back and read the worlds greatest literature again. You\'ve missed a key point most of those works went to great lengths to establish.
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Try to use words that you understand. I have no idea what you are trying to say. From this I can safely say you\'ve played too many VGs and need to read a great deal more. Beyond that I\'m confounded.
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Try to use words that you understand. I have no idea what you are trying to say. From this I can safely say you\'ve played too many VGs and need to read a great deal more. Beyond that I\'m confounded.
http://www.dictionary.com
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Come on Dawg, I thought you already learned acting dense just tends to make yourself look foolish. No? If anything confounds you, it must be the result of your own fat ego.
Yeah, I suppose I should read more than ten classics for every RPG I\'ve played instead of the hundred or thousand to one ratio Watchdog must have. Then I might be worthy of alluding to basic life lessons great authors have rehashed throughout the ages :rolleyes:
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LOL, I love it when stupid people try to sound smart by using big words.
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Watchdog I cant put into my mind how a movie can be better than a book.
And I dont see how a movie can capture peoples imaginations more than a VG.
And how do you know who wrote the script for a VG?How do you know how talented could be a writer of a game?
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Ever complete a game and watch the credits? You\'ll find your writers there.
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LOL, I love it when stupid people try to sound smart by using big words.
This is absurd to say. It\'s a poor assumption no matter what you are debating. How is he using "big" words? Who are they "big" to? Does intelligence for you mean using "big" words since you have made the connection? Honestly here, was this comment necessary at all especially since it deals more damage to the person who suggests it rather then the person it was said to?
VG are often written and coded by the same people. If devs would go and hire proffessional writers like movie studios do, we may be seeing some compelling content. But that doesn\'t happen, and we get crap.
Although the goals of these three industries, gaming, film, and literature, is to entertain, don\'t they accomplish it in their own ways through their own mediums? We play games, we watch movies, we read books... Doesn\'t each have to satisfy their audience with their own particular medium? If you read a game story, you\'d be bored to tears if it was on paper and wasn\'t accompanied by the actual game and the same with film screenplays if it\'s not with the actual film. I just think that for what the three mediums set out to do, they all accomplish their goals quite well in their own way.
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I\'m with Ryu... books, movies and VGs are 3 different things. If books were the greatest things, I wouldn\'t play VG and watch movies at all. Yet, I read books, watch movies or play VGs each for their own experience. I don\'t see why we even have to compare them.
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Well, I\'ll agree with Watchdog in that the very best videogame stories may be as good as the best "page-turner", as they cannot possibly hope to have the sort of depth that he requires to be entertained.
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Big is a relative term. He\'s trying to come off as smart by using fancy words that are obviously outside of his working vocabulary. Reread his post. He\'s a fraud, trying to come off as a person coming from a position of expertise. It\'s pretencious. I get students like that all the time, students who are bound by their thesaurus and believe I won\'t notice. Anyway...
I do read screenplays, and stage plays too for that matter. If well written, they stand up. Most people read Ibsen, Brecht, Shaw, Pinter, Shakespeare. Shakespeare is great on paper and on the stage--and, actually, I\'d say it\'s usually better on paper because Shakespeare is tough, and it takes skilled actors to pull it off. Brecht and Pinter are even tougher.
The graphic\'s artists and CG guys don\'t have to write the movies they work on. Why does anyone assume that the people coding the graphic\'s engine for a VG is capable of writing a decent story? Or worse yet, that they produce some of the best stuff ever written? It\'s lunacy, that\'s all I\'ve ever said.
Seven: While I agree with what you are saying, I have problems with the gamemakers/writers that take themselves too seriously, that try to be profound and deep when there obviously isn\'t the talent there to take them there (read Square and Konami).
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I just don\'t think it\'s fair that you write off the stories in games simply because they aren\'t literary works of art. A game designer creates a game because they want to create something fun. People play games because they are interactive. What they do has some type of effect on the world they are playing in and that\'s what they need. A book is no different. If it\'s poorly written, no one will want to read it and the same goes for movies. So what if a game doesn\'t have this amazing story comparable to Dickens or even Steinbeck? I don\'t think that was the creators of the videogames intention. Story is made to push the gameplay along, but in plenty of games, they nix the story altogether and go for the straightaway approach. I don\'t expect a masterpiece of story from games, but it\'s unfair for you to when that is not their primary goal.
Just a small note, what if big time writers were actually paid to write the next Final Fantasy? Just how much would that vision be destroyed when someone tells them that that would not make a very fun game? I can just imagine the writer\\designer issues that would rear their ugly heads almost as soon as the creative process began. It happens for books, it would probably be even worse for games. Liberties need to be taken, I just think that the story needs to evolve around a game whereas in films, special effects need to revolve around the story and thus, I don\'t think the two can be fairly compared.
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I can apreciate a VG story, I just don\'t align them with books and movies because the talent level isn\'t there yet. That\'s why I play the games, and give the plots little attention.
It\'s no more unfair when people in forums try to say "[insert VG] is the best story that\'s every been written." I don\'t go and make a point of trashing the story of VGs. If you notice, when I speak of a game, I never mention story. I only bring it up, when someone argues the other side. I don\'t condemn games because of it. Like I said, I like MGS (not NEARLY as much as most here though), but I like it because it oozes cool, not because of the standard plot.
I don\'t think you\'re giving the industry enough credit. You put talented VG designers, good actors, and proffessional writers together and give them a RPG project, and you\'ll get magic. Maybe not everytime, but you\'d certainly get some gems.
That way the CG artist wouldn\'t have to take time off to write the dialogue, he/she could focus on his/her area of expertise. This sort of marriage could only help VGs, not hurt. There would be growing pains to be sure as both sides would be learning the other\'s craft, but it would be worth it.
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Now we are off topic here. Watchdog, you may not want it, but you deserve my pity for not being able to be interested in a games storyline on the basic "What happens next" level. Despite the fact that many videogames do go beyond this (see. Final Fantasy 7, Metal Gear Solid, Shen Mue, Xenogears etc.). But that isnt enough? The most that could ever be is a guilty pleasure? You sir, deserve my pity :)
:)
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I think this conversation fully showcases why Watchdog is such a xbox fanboy. It also showcases where the mentality of a xbox fanboy comes from.. very interesting.
No offense to you directly as a person watchdog, but more to your mentality.
Also don\'t ask me tonight why I say that, i\'ll come back tomorow and post a full reply
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hey, im kinda partial to watch\'s mentality
he\'s like me, just on the other side of the fence
:)
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In VGs have much more things for its creators to worry about.Graphics,gameplay,originality,artists,music,(sometimes actors are needed),research, etc.Efforts are shared and divided.Sometimes game developers work overtimes and sometimes they would even sleep in their office.
In books there is only the writer.Full efforts in writing=best written.
In Movies there are the actors,the director,the scirpt writers(or a summarised story of a book),the special effect designers,musicians etc.Usually in movies most of the times there are different specialists devoted in each work.
Each of the three are created differently.Thus having different results.They dont feel the same.Each has a unique effect IMO.
It\'s no more unfair when people in forums try to say "[insert VG] is the best story that\'s every been written.
Not written.Created or Made.Every "ingredient" that make the game,is what makes the story(in a game).
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Hey, Chrono. I don\'t know why that makes me a fanboy, but whatever you say.
I implore you take a look at my posts. I bash way more xbox games than I do PS2. You however, call me a fanboy only when it is conveinent for you to do so.
If I have a bias it\'s against Nintendo. Of that I\'m probably guilty, but it\'s not because it\'s a Nintendo product, it\'s because of their art direction and target audience. At times I do get my back up and am pessimistic about N games without cause, but no one here is a perfect poster.
At the end of the day I don\'t care what you think. You\'re a troll and a jackass. I wouldn\'t post here if this board was full of half wits like you. It\'s the dozen or so other people who make this board work, people like you are an unfortunate side effect of maturity.
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Boy I can\'t wait till ZOE2.:D
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It\'s no more unfair when people in forums try to say "[insert VG] is the best story that\'s every been written."
Typical Watchdog, setting up straw dogs to pee all over, knowing damn well the closest anyone ever comes to saying the quote above is " [insert VG] is one of my favorite games because it has such a great story" but Professor Watchdog has to throw a fit as if it were being compared directly to great literature. What\'s that Dawg? You\'re a TA in a English class? Sorry, my mistake. Is that at a high school or what? There\'s no way to tell, going by your behavior on this forum. Talk about pretentious frauds...
Yeah, it\'s easy to belittle people, especially strangers who are at a safe distance. Is it just too hard to grasp going through life believing you\'re better than everybody else is the root cause for all that\'s wrong in the world?
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damn thats deep man, real deep
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Actually, it\'s a University, and it is Professor Watchdog.
I don\'t think I\'m better than everyone else. I think I have an opinion, and it is irrefutable. VGs do no match up narratologically to books or movies. If you think otherwise, you are wrong. They don\'t even come close.
You\'re the one getting hostile. If you can\'t match the argument, attack the person, eh? Whatever. You came in here, without an argument, just invective. It\'s telling of your character. I was following the rules, debating, you come around and sling mud. Who\'s in high school? Yeah, I do the same to Chrono and now you, but it\'s because you guys are clowns, and I could care less about your little opinions.
If you can\'t sit at the table with the big people, maybe you shouldn\'t even try.
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Who\'s in high school?
Uhh, i\'m certainly not, i\'ve been in college for over a year now
I could care less about your little opinions.
Then why do you hang around with such peons professor?
We must be intellectually stunting you with our stupidity!
If you can\'t sit at the table with the big people, maybe you shouldn\'t even try.
Here is a great example of your "i\'m better then you"
if your so much better, why do you hang around here?
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Although I didnt show I got bothered by it I didt like that part either.
And MG cannot be compared with any book of merit. Thanks for the laugh.
Personally I never answer that way to someone when I dont agree with him.I didnt even mean what you uderstood in my post.But I am a very forgiving person.I ve got no hard feelings against u yet.
I still dont beleive a movie can be compared with a great book though.
VGs do no match up narratologically to books or movies.
Neither a movie.Because in movies u use ur vision and hearing.And in games there is vision,hearing and participation.So movies are inferior at it and games are inferior to movies but they gain elsewhere.In books all these must be included in the narration.Thats why books are more narrative than games or movies.
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Like I said Chrono, I\'m not hear to talk to people like you. I\'ve been an internet junkie for years now and have never had over 500 posts on any forum until this one. There are intelligent people here, that have valuable things to say, and interesting things to contribute.
When was the last time you said anything interesting? Can anyone here thing of something? ... no I thought not.
Yeah, I can see where you\'re coming from Unicron (love transformers btw--unfortunate about armada though :(). But it\'s interesting to look at a movie from a director\'s viewpoint. Look at the camera work, the lighting, etc. There is a very deep craft there, that adds another layer to good movies.
Take Hitchcock\'s "Birds" for example. There is a scene where the heroine is sitting on a bench chatting and out of focus, in the background, on the monkey bars, crows start gathering behind her one by one .
The first time I watched it I was watching the intended focal point of the scene (the female) and didn\'t even notice the birds until the heroine did. That\'s great vision and skill, and it accomplishes something that a book cannot. Because once something is on the page, it\'s pretty difficult to hide from the audience.
VG\'s don\'t have something like this that distinguishes them from the other medias, unless you disregard story and go to gameplay. That\'s why the heart of a game lies in its gameplay, not its story. Because VGs can\'t compete on the same level--the skill isn\'t there yet.
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Hey we seem to kinda agree there
(each of the three loses somewhere and gains elsewhere).
In games they can add similar things too.For example in Silent Hill,there were moments when you could see or hear strange things that dont necessarily add anything to the way the game plays.Like the sound of a crying child in the toilets.The corridor and the rooms that changed and the door that disappeared.That strange sound you could here in a room and notice its source was a shadowy figure of a baby etc.
The example you mentioned in Alfred Hitchcock\'s"Birds" shows the talent of a director that can\'t be implemnted in a game or have the same impact.But the difference in a game is that you wonder around.In a movie the main characters take a straight line in the movie\'s story development.You have no control.You feel uncapable to change anything.The protagonists are helpless in a bad situation.You begin to put your self in their place and thats when the movie succeeds.That builds a great tention and suspence in the movie a game cant.
While in a game you take control of the main character and its up to u to progress.In a game like Silent Hill you dont sit and watch.You are not controling the character the way you want.You feel limited and helpless in the twisted enviroment and gains its own feel of tention and agony.
Games and movies just work differently.
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Agreed. That\'s why the story of every game I\'ve ever played is completely secondary and at times unnecesary to my enjoyment of it.
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If the story makes you feel more involved in the game then its good but I don\'t think any story completely ruins a game.
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No, it never ruins the game.
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i could list several games ruined by story
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Again, I play games for gameplay, not for story. Story cannot ruin a game, but it seems I am an odd sort around here.
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story is an integral part of gameplay
you cant seperate them
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I agree with mm... a game (for me) isn\'t just a game. Story, music, gameplay.. they all play a big role and at the end make the game to what it actually is. Infact, I doubt I\'d play the FF series if it weren\'t for the great story behind it. Same goes for MGS. Sure, you could still play it even if they weren\'t any story behind it, but really - would the motivation be there?
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I still had fun with MGS2 even though its story is lacking and thats where I formed my opinion that the story can never kill a game.
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I think I should agree with mm and seven.Thats the reason why FF7 stands out from the rest FFs.
Again, I play games for gameplay, not for story. Story cannot ruin a game, but it seems I am an odd sort around here.
BTW:Hey Watchdog are most of the games u own violent ones?Like KILL SMASH DESTROY ELIMINATE DEMOLISH etc etc?Because these are the only games that dont give much attention to story.Or atleast people dont give attention to their story.(They give to other things that make them a success like KILL SMASH DESTROY ELIMINATE DEMOLISH) .This kind of games are all very similar usually.
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Watchdog could play a game like MGS2, which isn\'t a kill smash destroy. He would just play it for the awesome gameplay.
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I\'ve said it before, and I\'ll say it again. MGS2 has the best gameplay of any game this generation, it\'s just that it never lets you use any of it. :(
Which is why I\'m hopeful for Splinter Cell. :)
doesnt know why he brought this up..
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No, I don\'t like games like that, Unicron (I hate GTA3).
I don\'t want the removal of story from games, but the story isn\'t what keeps me interested. I don\'t care what happens next (mostly because it\'s very easy to predict), I care about what I do next.
VGs are for playing.
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Originally posted by Watchdog
VGs are for playing.
Movies used to be for entertainment only too u know.As technology progresses VGs might not be only just for playing in the future(Ahm I dont mean for guiding missiles,or tank and war plane simulations:D).