PSX5Central
Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Cerberus on September 10, 2002, 03:06:55 PM
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Where were you, and what were you doing when you heard about the terrorist attacks?
It was nearly 3.00PM, and I was on the bus when the driver announced what had happened.
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I was in bed and my mom woke my up right after the second plane hit.
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I\'ve had to respond to this so many times lately, that I am just going to copy and paste my response.
I was in school, going to 4th period. I got there, the TV was on. Both buildings had been hit, but neither had fallen yet. At first I thought it was a movie. When I found out the truth, I was in shock, to say the least. That turned to fear, and then remorse. I know several people who worked within blocks of the trade center, and were in that area at the time. My father works for the New York State Court system, and has an office in the area, which he goes to frequently. Luckily, he wasn\'t there that day. I also know someone who ended up dying in those attacks. He was a friend of the family, and had no way of getting down. When he realized he had no chance of escaping, he called his wife, to say goodbye to her. He was on the phone with her until the building collapsed. He was a good friend of the family, and will be missed, like all the others who died in that event.
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I just got out of the shower and the phone rang:
"TIM! TURN ON THE TV! WERE UNDER ATTACK!"
My initial response was whatever and sure enough, there it was, both buildings on fire and smoking. Then they showed the pentagon. I was home and I watched tower 1 and 2 collapse before I left for school.
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I was in 2nd period (9:30\'ish), and ironic enough, everyone had done the pledge, except I didn\'t.
Now I do. Yes, I did feel like shit.
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It was around 8:50 and I was on a field to a community college in downtown Columbus. The professer told our class and we were kind of stunned and confused. About an hour later we were forced to evacuate so my class decided to go out to eat. We went to a wings place and thats when we saw the destruction on TV. It was far worse than we had thought.
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I just woke up, and my mom told me all about it. I was sort of skeptical, but when I got to school. One of the teachers was crying, because her brother worked there. All day we watched the news.
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It was going on during 1st hour. That\'s what everybody was talking about the whole day and all Tests, Quizes, and homework was canceled. A few teachers were crying that\'s about it. Lets hope it doesn\'t happen again...ever.
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I don\'t remember the exact time that it had happened, but I remember it was during 2nd period at school and I was in math class. The teacher was explaining something on the board and suddenly the principal delivered a message over the loudspeaker to the entire school explaining that a plane had crashed into the World Trade Center. I think just about everyone in the classroom was in shock, but we all believed it was an accident -- nothing terrorist-related. Later in the period we received another announcement concerning the second attack on the WTC, and that\'s when people started getting worried. The class ended and I went to my 3rd period english class where we spent the next 50 minutes or so watching everything unfold on TV. The rest of the day, in each class I had, I did the same thing: watch the news. The faculty even set up a TV in the auditorium so the students could watch everything over and over again during their lunch periods.
It was certainly the darkest day I\'ve ever experienced in my life, and it was really interesting to see the reactions of all my teachers and friends. I don\'t think any of them acted like themselves that day.
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The radio alarm on my stereo went off at 6:30 or so and I was expecting on hearing my favorite morning radio show people\'s laughter. Instead they mentioned something about a message from the president. I thought "great...the monkey speaks." I was still half asleep and heard the words New York, World Trade Center, attacked, planes. Jerked awake and then stumbled down from my top bunk to see what\'s on TV. Sure enough, The Today Show was covering it. My mom was wondering what was I doing watching TV before I brushed my teeth. My older sister who wasn\'t supposed to wake up for another hour came out of her room too. I called Ryu to tell him as he had mentioned above. Then my mom made some phone calls to her sister and parents in NYC. They were all OK. But I didn\'t find out if a cousin of mine was OK until three days after.
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Let\'s see, I had a lateish class that day, So I woke up almost right after the two buildings had collapsed. No one was home and I was just sitting there staring at the screen for 5 seconds, I thought I was in a dream and fell back asleep for like 10 mins.
I woke up, and sure enough there was on the Television, I didn\'t even go to class that day just because I couldn\'t get my self out of bed and my eyes off the TV screen.
None of our relatives in NYC were hurt (thank god)
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Good God is anyone in the work force! Anyway, I was sitting at my desk staring at a simulation of cars moving along our city\'s traffic network and I get a call from a friend who is watching the thing happen on TV. This is right after the first plane hit. As we are talking he starts screaming that another plane is heading right for the next tower.
Stupid me, I am thinking he is talking about some little Cesna or something, not a 747. All hell breaks loose at the Government Center. People are watching TV\'s in the Directors office and I finally see the replay of the second jet hitting the towers. The rest of the day was quite surreal.
The next day we have armed guards standing by all the entrances with metal detectors. Reality sinks in.
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I was actually on these forums. Someone had just made a post about it, nobody believed him including me. For about 10 posts or so everyone was joking around, some were upset at the very thought...then one person posted something like "No, really. One of the towers just got hit. Turn on your TV."
I turned it on and not 10 minutes later the second tower got hit...I watched it all the way up until I had a class at 1:30. I got to class, we sat down and discussed what was going on. Then we turned on the TV for the remainder of the period. I came home and kept watching for any updates.
I was in a state of disbelief the entire day.
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Yeah, Gig, I was in the workforce at the time. I was working second shift tho, and playing PSO with my friends all night so the only real sleep time I had was durring the mornings. So I\'m crashed out in my recliner, like usual, and my sis walks in and kicks the chair. I get all pissed off, and wondering WTF did she do that for? She\'s said, "We\'re under attack, the WTC jus got rammed by planes."
I rolled over and said, "Bullshit" and went back to sleep. About a half hour later I woke up and turned on the TV jus in time to watch both towers fall. I didn\'t really believe what I was seeing at first.. but it slowly sank in over the course of the day. I wasn\'t scared.. I wasn\'t concerned.. I jus kept rolling the thought over in my head.. "The WTC is GONE... " I didn\'t go to work that day.. I didn\'t wanna get stuck in a situation where everyone\'s all distracted and crying and scared.. so I jus stayed home and watched TV all day.. switching between TechTV, History Channel, Discovery, Starz, and MSNBC.
After a few days, the disbelief wore off and I jus got angrier. I knew it was war the moment it happened, and I wanted to enlist in the army, but they rejected me cause of several factors. I figure **** it.. they have my selective service card.. they\'ll call if they need me. Still, I\'m dissapointed that I wasn\'t there in the bombers blasting out Battle Cry of Freedom and various other "wrath of god" Civil War tunes over the battlefeild while bombing the crap outta Tora Bora.
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I was in period 2 spanish, right after the 1st tower was hit. We turned on a TV and watched the 2nd hit. It was horrible, one of our kids parents worked in the WTC, but he was thankfully not there during that time.
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I was at work (we were Majorly Backed up with Projects)Listening to Howard stern...at first I thought he was making a joke...............but he was DEAD serious! I was in utter shock and utterly Piss3D OFF!
:hat:ScotyJ:hat:
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I had just started a new job and it was my second day there. I was in training and taking an ergonomics test and was stopped because quote, "we are under attack".
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it was the first time i ever spent the night with daisy.
we woke up to it.
no shit.
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Luke\'s penis is cursed.
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maybe... but weve spent many nights a-bangin\' sence then and nothings happened... so i think your all safe.
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where the hell was I?
oh yeah, I was at home and got a phone call with a frantic "NY has been bombed" I thought it had been nuked, but was somewhat pleasantly surprised that it was only the WTC towers.
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I was at home when the programs stopped and news came on, on all channels.
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Well, I am on the other side of the world.... I woke up, went to get the newspaper as I usually do in the morning, and on the front was AMERICAN ATTACKED w/ a pic of the WTC up in smoke. I was like WTF!!!!! then I ran in to turn on CNN and saw everything!
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Well, It was like 11:00 in Australia at night when it happened. I was watching some movie, when all of a sudden the movie changed to a news report. They then had NBC on. It basically switch as soon as it was obvious that it was an attack (the second plane).
I was then up all night just watching in disbelief, it was horrible, watching the whole thing unfold on TV. I had a math exam the next day.
Lets just say that no one did very well.
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I was at work here in Germany. I work in the office of a big US Automotive Company. A close friend of mine send me an eMail with a Special Newspaper Topic... that was almost the last thing we could receive over the net ! I managed to print it 20 times, then, all of a sudden the Networkprinters quit their job because of the high Internet Traffic... Phones were ringing and I heard how some US colleague said: "THEY DID WHAT ??? OMG IT´S THE END !!!"
20 Min past the attack and a few phonecalls with my friends and parents later I managed to get on a page in the Internet that provide me with some information for me and my colleagues... it was the PSX2Central Homepage !!!
Now it was 4:50 PM and I rushed home... the streets were almost empty and the few ppl I saw looked sad and confused. Than at home I saw the pictures on TV and cried...
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i was asleep.. woke up just before the first tower fell... thought it wasn\'t real at first, a movie preview or something.
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I had that day off and slept thru the first two airplanes hitting but was awoken by my g/f calling to tell me.I didn\'t have any cable for the tv where I was living at the time so I couldn\'t watch any news,so I was left with listening to a local radio station for the latest info.Luckily I had BB tho so I was one of the few who could get online.Read some CNN.com for a while when I could,then made my way here.One thing that stands out in my mind was how the forum members from other parts of the world were here with kind words.
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I was at home asleep in bed when my mom rushed in the room and yelled something about us being attacked. Being half asleep, i didn\'t quite believe her, but sure enough, there it was on the news. My grandpa said something about us bearing witness to a major part of history, and only now do i fully understand what he meant.
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I class 09/11 up with the Holocaust, WW1 and 2, Pearl Harbour and Vietnam.
Its something that will eventually be behind us all.
I\'m just awaiting the movie...
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It was lunchtime when both miss moneypenny and me heard
She works at the local SSPCA (Animal charity) and it was my first time as a volunteer, we were both doing the dog welfare kennels.
At the centre there was no TV or Radio at hand so we heard it by word of mouth from a customer that was in to look at the stray dogs.
At first we didn’t believe it think it was some kind of sick joke, but was soon as we managed to find a radio we wished it was.
That was the first time I was nearly physically sick with the shock of it all.
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Originally posted by ##RaCeR##
I\'m just awaiting the movie...
I think that is inevitable at some point in time.
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I\'m surprised so many of you guys from around the world actually felt so strongly about it. I mean, America doesn\'t have a very good image in the eyes of the world.. expecially after 9/11 but before also. That\'s amazing.. most american\'s could care less if our own embassies get bombed as long as they\'re in another country. If downtown London had been hit.. I don\'t think American\'s would have reacted as strongly to it as the as the world has to America being hit.
Hell, some of our own citizens were on PSO later that night after the attacks happened with quick chat symbols showing the planes flying into the towers and big "hooray" symbols.. talking about how it was too cool and spouting BS like "Penta-GONE - LOLOLOLOL". :( I think that was the worst thing about this tragedy.. is that some people actually enjoyed it and want to see more destruction like this on a global scale.
Granted, most of them didn\'t mean what they were doing.. they were jus trying to do what they always do.. piss people off by any means possible. Still, to even joke about things like the WTC attack, Princess Diana\'s death, earthquakes in Japan, or other world disasters is real testiment to how sick and cold people can be.
Equally sick is how nearly everyone and their brother jumped on the diaster in an effort to make a little cash on others suffering. The commercialization of death and tragedy jus makes me ill. Also disturbing is how apathetic people were to America one minuite, and then all patriotic the next. I hate seeing flags waving from the porch of someone who jus a year ago would rather be seen at a flag burning party than show his support for his homeland or give money to help support veterans and their familys... people who\'ve gone through a hell we can\'t even imagine in the name of that flag.
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SONYFAN,
I agree to a certain extent as to what your saying. I think that Americans have been fed a sense of \'invincibility\'.
This has basically proved that alas, they, just like the rest of the world, are not protected against this kind of thing. I think it has also brought allies closer together too, particularly with British American ties.
This brought a tear to my eye.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fap%2F20020911%2Fcapt.1031715995.australia_sept_11_world_reax_gc101.jpg&hash=4f18921bc3d9c43337c75f006f66e9150b21733b)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fus.news2.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Fap%2F20020911%2Fcapt.1031715589.australia_sept_11_world_reax_gc106.jpg&hash=d80d35a1416e1981eec1f6e0a9de635c6d117e26)
An aerial view shows that over 5000 people dressed in red white and blue form a human American Flag in tribute to the the victims of the September 11 attacks on America on the beach at Surfers Paradise on the Gold Coast, 40 miles south of Brisbane, Australia Sept 11, 2002.
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Exactly RaCeR, do you really think there\'d be public demonstrations like that in America if the Sydney Opera house were attacked tho? What about British Parliment? The Louve in Paris? I can see us showing support and money, but I can\'t see America showing the level of shock and sympathy the rest of the world has shown us. Maybe I\'m a short sighted pessimist, but I think America has been selfish in our hurt.
Now, we\'re using this tragedy to fast track policies and trying to back our allies against a wall on our side with this "war on terror". I love my country, I\'m dissapointed in my gov\'t. I\'ve seen the worlds sympathy returned with selfishness.. and when we don\'t get our way.. we simply throw a fit and do it anyway. Or at least, that\'s the way it\'d be Bush, Ashcroft, and Rumsfeild have their way. We\'re NOT invicible.. and as much as we\'d hate to admit at times.. expecially as full of patriotism as we feel now, but we need the rest of the world as much as the rest of the world needs us.
All I\'m sayin with this rant, is I think we need to listen to our allies and truely work TOGETHER to get this done.. and it pisses me off that with all the support and help we\'ve recieved thus far, that we\'re not more accomodating to those who are trying to help us.
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I was waking up in the morning and notice what looked like a skyscraper burning..my first thought was it was a building downtown burning. Upon becomming more aware..I did notice it was in downtown..just not chicago\'s. I didnt really get much good information so I thought it was some accident with a plane hitting one of the trade towers. Then I turned to either cnn or fox news and saw the 2nd plane crash, then I KNEW what was up.
EVentually they mentioned terrorist acts..but I was simply amazed.
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exectly sonyfan
we americans dont care what happens to the rest of the world
its only a tradgedy when it happens on US soil, OR if an american loses a life
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Originally posted by mm
exectly sonyfan
we americans dont care what happens to the rest of the world
its only a tradgedy when it happens on US soil, OR if an american loses a life
Thanks mm, for speaking for every single person in the US. How big is that brush you paint with anyway? We are probably the most generous nation on earth when tragedy strikes around the world.
Ace
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ONly to attempt in saving face for the god knows what we have down to them in the past. That or as a political move. MM is speaking for a good majority of americans, least thats the way I look at it. Hell most people dont even care what is going on outside of their homes. This is more of a US against them thing tho. Kinda like in school..they divide you up into teams for dodgeball or what have you...you may be on a team with alot you dislike in your class, but you still try your best with them since it is a US against THEM situation.
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I know there are problems, I know there have been things done in the past that we are not proud of, I know that we could be doing a lot better, but I know that I would rather be no where else than this country. I guess I\'m blinded by patriotism.
Ace
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Originally posted by SonyFan
Exactly RaCeR, do you really think there\'d be public demonstrations like that in America if the Sydney Opera house were attacked tho? What about British Parliment? The Louve in Paris? I can see us showing support and money, but I can\'t see America showing the level of shock and sympathy the rest of the world has shown us. Maybe I\'m a short sighted pessimist, but I think America has been selfish in our hurt.
Well I for one wouldn\'t miss the Louve or France for that matter... :rolleyes:
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There is also no other place Id rather be(lessar of the evils)now as well..except for maybe my own personal 3-5 mile island on occasion... but like mm said in that other thread. I love this country, I hate most of the people that are involved in running it and enforcing policy both home and abroad.
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Originally posted by luckee
There is also no other place Id rather be(lessar of the evils)now as well..except for maybe my own personal 3-5 mile island on occasion... but like mm said in that other thread. I love this country, I hate most of the people that are involved in running it and enforcing policy both home and abroad.
We are a superpower and with it comes responsibility. The last time we took an isolationist policy (right after World War I), the world had its worst war in history. I am sorry if people disagree with me, but we have to take a role on the world stage. I have no sympathy for the Palestinians or the Arab world at this point in time. Without the West (ie. Europe and the US) they would still be a bunch of nomadic tribes wandering the Arabian peninsula. The oil that they receive all their wealth from was discovered by the west and the oil fields were built by the west. Our policies are dictated by what is best for the US and her allies. They may not be fair, but they are right.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
We are a superpower and with it comes responsibility. The last time we took an isolationist policy (right after World War I), the world had its worst war in history. I am sorry if people disagree with me, but we have to take a role on the world stage. I have no sympathy for the Palestinians or the Arab world at this point in time. Without the West (ie. Europe and the US) they would still be a bunch of nomadic tribes wandering the Arabian peninsula. The oil that they receive all their wealth from was discovered by the west and the oil fields were built by the west. Our policies are dictated by what is best for the US and her allies. They may not be fair, but they are right.
So by saying that.. say I own 20 guns and have 4 loyal friends and you have 1 gun and 1 other friend. I would be the superpower..so therefore I should have responsibility to patrol in and outside of your home, not allowing you to have certain items, not allowing mail into your home..intercepting your phone calls etc.. just b/c of a negative comment you have said to me in these forums?
Ok..I know I am really,REALLY stretching this, but I think you see my point.
There is a point in time when the US just has to let things play out, there is a time when they need to interfere, there is a time when they need to find a happy medium(like they exist ;) )
Responsibility to do things or not, there are times when the US is simply wrong..no questions asked, and then try to jusify it somehow making things 10 times worse.
As for the palestinines..you should watch and read more about them, it is they i feel sorry for and not the isrealies. They got a bad rap b/c of the things they would do in the wars with isreal. Im sure isreal would have resorted to the same if they didnt have the US funding them BILLIONS of dollars.
On another superpower note...should one of the super powers act against us b/c of some of the things we do? I mean..after all, they are a super power and have responsibilities ya know :)
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Originally posted by luckee
As for the palestinines..you should watch and read more about them, it is they i feel sorry for and not the isrealies. They got a bad rap b/c of the things they would do in the wars with isreal. Im sure isreal would have resorted to the same if they didnt have the US funding them BILLIONS of dollars.
I know all about the Palestinians - I was on the Council for Arab-American Relations back in college - we even met King Hussein of Jordan... but does that justify them killing Israeli civilians? Terrorism is terrorism. Don\'t get me wrong I have no love for Israel either, what they are doing by annexing Palestinian territory is in violation of International Law, but by sending suicide bombers in to kill civilians does not help their cause. As for the billions the US sends... you can thank pro Israeli lobbyists and Jews here in America for that. It is the same as the Irish Americans sending money to the Sinn Fein - ie. the IRA. Besides, it is in the interest of the US to support one of the only democracies in the region.
Now on the flip side, Israel is being sort of hypocritical when it comes to claiming that they are the victims of terrorism. The state of Israel was founded on terrorism. It was the Israelis blowing up British troops back in the late 40\'s when it was called Palestine. As most of you know public opinion at the time was that the Jews deserved a state of their own due to the crimes that were committed against them in World War II. So not much fuss was made about these terror attacks and Britain finally granted the Israelis what they wanted. Unfortunately, the Palestinians were left out of the plan and thus we have the situation we do today.
On a side note. Bin Laden and his bunch don\'t care what happens to the Palestinians. It is a ploy to gain support in the Arab world. Hell, the guy is still pissed off about the Moors getting kicked out of Spain.
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The last time we took an isolationist policy (right after World War I), the world had its worst war in history. I am sorry if people disagree with me, but we have to take a role on the world stage. - Giga
I agree.. but this gung-ho go-get-em attitude our current administration is displaying is totally out of line. We need to work WITH the world.. not simply jus have them sit back and either nod their heads in approval or dissaproval to what we want to do. We\'ve got it stuck in our heads that might makes right.. and we push the UN around far too much. It was a different story back in the Cold War when we had another superpower vying for the rest of the world\'s support against us. We willfully worked with the world and did things to their satisfaction. Now.. well.. who can challenge us? Why do we need the UN\'s permission? **** em.. lets do it anyhow. What kinda attitude is that for a country who was a founding member of the UN - with the intent to keep countries from doing the very same thing! If we willfully and deliberately attack Iraq without solid proof of wrongdoing or world support.. our actions will be no better than Iraq\'s was when it invaded Kuwait.
I have no sympathy for the Palestinians or the Arab world at this point in time. - Giga
Funny, I have all the sympathy in the world for the Palestinians. I don\'t condone their actions, but I understand why they\'re resorting to them. Look back 200 years in American history and you see Isriel is doing to them exactly what we did to the Native Americans. Do you know what that was? It was a Holocaust. Genocide. I don\'t care whatever some "patriots" wish to call it.. it was the murder of an entire race of people. This is slowly happening to the Palestinians as well as they keep getting pushed and pushed from their land. Of course, they could always just move.. just like the NA\'s could have moved to Canada. However, there comes a time when a man can\'t be pushed anymore.. and he\'s shot because he dared to push back.
Without the West (ie. Europe and the US) they would still be a bunch of nomadic tribes wandering the Arabian peninsula.
Typical western mentality. We\'ve tamed the savages.. look at how great we are. :rolleyes: Did it ever occur to you that these people might have only wanted to STAY nomadic tribes wandering around the Arabian peninsula? They were happy with their lives and their culture. If they want to advance, let them come to us. We don\'t have to force them to join our idea of society.. even if they are only doing so just so they can better fight us.
The oil that they receive all their wealth from was discovered by the west and the oil fields were built by the west.
Here\'s a quick geography tip.. Isriel isn\'t that rich in oil. Sure it has quite a bit.. but not nearly as much as it\'s surrounding neighbors like Iraq, Kuwait, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. We don\'t protect Isriel unilatterally because of their oil.. we protect them because they\'re the only really stable gov\'t in the regieon in which we can place military bases and more efficently exact our control over the regieon. They\'re being our bitches in exchange for our outdated military hardware. The only reason they\'re fighting for a Palesitinan state is so they can have a clear boundry to show the UN exactly where Isriel is pushing into their land and strongarm us into helping them.. like we SHOULD be doing in the first place.
Oh, and by the way. It\'s not the Palestinians who you should be angry at. Out of all the 9/11 hijackers.. not a one of them was Palestinian. Most of them were Saudi\'s, who\'s crown prince Abdullah is supposedly an ally of ours. Also, we didn\'t build a single one of their oil feilds.. since they don\'t even have any. These people.. and their leaders.. are DIRT POOR, not rich dictators/Sheiks like Kadaffe, Saddam, and Abdullah.
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I remember I was in computer school at the time. A few of us were online at newgrounds when someone ran in and said the World Trade Center was hit by a plane. Some had told him shut the F*** up and we all want back to what we were doing. Then the guy next to me went on the yahoo news site and found out it was true then the whole class went to various news sites and saw the plane crash and watched real time video streams the rest of the day till school was over.
Then when I got home I watched the tower come down on channel 4 news. I didn\'t actually feel sad just a little shocked that something like that actually happened. It\'s a day I\'ll always remember though I didn\'t shed a single tear or anything like that; it\'s just one of those things that you can\'t forget no matter how hard you try.
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Sorry if I don\'t take the bleeding heart liberal stance on the Palestinian issue. I could post some examples of experiences in dealing with Arabs long before there was even a state of Israel, but I won\'t as a matter of not offending anyone.
Also a little history lesson: The Arabs have twice tried to destroy Israel and both times have gotten their asses handed to them. In both occassions they were the aggressor. Don\'t preach to me about how the poor Palestinians suffer... their Arab brothers don\'t particularly like them either, especially after they were shown celebrating in the streets after the Trade Centers were hit. Arafat condones violence - not publicly, but privately.
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Well I was in a break from school around 14:00 (2:00pm for some of you). I was called out of my room shortly after the first plane hit. I watched the 2nd plane hit. It was funny, because first I and even the reporter thought this was a pilot or navigator error or something.
But on the other subject of this thread. It really seems mm, SonyFan and Luckee are the only ones with sense and not just blinded by patrotism. It\'s so true that if it had happened anywhere else most of you wouldn\'t give a jack sh!t about it.
And the ignorance when you are calling the palstinians bad guys, whoa you\'ve got nothing and are fighing for your land and freedom. In this case, the Isralies are the bad guys. Something that always stuck in my mind was when the Palistines bombed an empty field in Israely terrotory, it was empty no damage done what so ever, and in retaliation they bombed a school. Great move for the good guys :rolleyes:
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Well sorry if don\'t take a hard edge pro-american only approach to the situation. I\'ve seen what this country is capable of.. on TV and in my History books.. and not a whole lot of it was morally right, or even condoned by the doctrine our country was founded on. But it was blood shed for the intent of looking out for "American interests".
Like I said.. I don\'t condone their actions. I simply try to understand and simpathise with them. Wouldn\'t you do the same if you were in their shoes? The NA\'s did. There\'s a lil recent history lesson for ya. Many traditional NA\'s on their reservations, while not admitting it publicly, supported the Palestinian celebrations. At least, those who weren\'t too busy getting drunk or cleaning up the casinos while worrying if their homes would be the next to go when the American Gov\'t decides they need to take jus a bit more of their territory. It\'s not like they have any greater love for us than the Palestinians do for Isriel. After all, it wasn\'t even more than 50 years ago that various groups of militant NA\'s were conducting terrorist attacks on various US locals because of the wrongs we\'ve done to them.. and are still doing to them to this day. Hmm, but maybe you didn\'t hear about that. After all.. noone really gives a sh*t about them anymore. It must be a sad thing to have your entire race, once proud and full of culture, reduced to a few handfuls of refugees living in pillaged strips of land.. only to be ignored completely by the rest of the world until your heritage fades into nothing. Can\'t blame the Palestinians for wanting to avoid that fate at all costs.
So yeah.. I identify with anyone who\'s forcibly pushed from their homelands which they\'ve occupied for thousands upon thousands of years by outsiders and put into "territories" which are slowly too getting stripped away from them. Even if I can\'t bring myself to condone or applaud their actions, I can try to understand the level of desperation they must feel in order to be pushed into preforming these acts of terror.
Heh, I jus thought of something. Perhaps I am looking at this in the American way after all. The truely (N) American way. Hetch etu Aloh. :)
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People always mention these "terrorist actions" by the pal\'s but you sometimes have to think that their hands have certainly been forced. When you cant fight a conventional war b/c you know you will loose, you have to do as much as possible untill the field is even somewhat. Its like kicking the bigger guy in the family jewels to grab an advantage or equal things out some.
While the above staement may seem like it, I dont condone suicide bombings that usually end up injuring the innocent instead of military personel, but I CERTAINLY understand why they are doing it. It\'s almost a matter of no choice
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Originally posted by SonyFan
Like I said.. I don\'t condone their actions. I simply try to understand and simpathise with them. Wouldn\'t you do the same if you were in their shoes? The NA\'s did. There\'s a lil recent history lesson for ya. Many traditional NA\'s on their reservations, while not admitting it publicly, supported the Palestinian celebrations. At least, those who weren\'t too busy getting drunk or cleaning up the casinos while worrying if their homes would be the next to go when the American Gov\'t decides they need to take jus a bit more of their territory. It\'s not like they have any greater love for us than the Palestinians do for Isriel. After all, it wasn\'t even more than 50 years ago that various groups of militant NA\'s were conducting terrorist attacks on various US locals because of the wrongs we\'ve done to them.. and are still doing to them to this day.
WTF... where did you get this information? Native Americans celebrating the World Trade Center attacks? What are these schools teaching you now a days? Some revisionist history it seems. Our countries growth was "Manifest Destiny" and you wouldn\'t have what you do today was it not for that.
I am so sick of this politically correct BS. So basically I should feel bad that my ancestors came to this country in the 1600\'s, fought for its independence, fought for the North in the Civil War, fought the Germans and Austrians in WWI, went back in WW2 to preserve freedom and the American way of life?
This Y generation should be called "Clinton Youth", bunch of sickening pacifist do nothings. Why don\'t you talk to some of the people that fought in WW2 who were only 18-19 years old at the time. Instead of going to college and playing with their PS2\'s they served their country without hesitation. Would you do the same?
I just can\'t see your justification of what happened on 9/11 in any of your posts. Bringing Native Americans into it is like mixing apples and oranges.
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Originally posted by luckee
People always mention these "terrorist actions" by the pal\'s but you sometimes have to think that their hands have certainly been forced. When you cant fight a conventional war b/c you know you will loose, you have to do as much as possible untill the field is even somewhat. Its like kicking the bigger guy in the family jewels to grab an advantage or equal things out some.
While the above staement may seem like it, I dont condone suicide bombings that usually end up injuring the innocent instead of military personel, but I CERTAINLY understand why they are doing it. It\'s almost a matter of no choice
So you condone radical Islamic terrorist... Their "cause" gives peaceful Islamic followers a bad name. There is no "cause" that anyone should agree with, when they are killing people because they believe that is their ticket to heaven.
Your don\'t understand jack sh!t, just like half the other people here that think "we brought this on ourselves"
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No, Like I said, I understand some direction of where they are comming from.
BTW, I s\'pose you have the answers then?
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
This Y generation should be called "Clinton Youth", bunch of sickening pacifist do nothings. Why don\'t you talk to some of the people that fought in WW2 who were only 18-19 years old at the time. Instead of going to college and playing with their PS2\'s they served their country without hesitation. Would you do the same?
Yeah, and I\'m sure they were all really excited and happy about it. They really loved the horrors of war and they weren\'t nervous about it, they didn\'t vomit when watching their friends shot down like cannon fodder.
Please, not everyone acts like a movie star in "Pearl Harbor". I\'m not saying most of them weren\'t patriots or whatnot, but to say they were just THAT much better than \'us\' is BS. Glamourized BS.
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Originally posted by luckee
No, Like I said, I understand some direction of where they are comming from.
BTW, I s\'pose you have the answers then?
No offense Luckee, but you need to learn more about what you are talking about.
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No I don\'t have the answers.
I\'m blinded by patriotism.....Thus, having no answers.
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Originally posted by Samwise
Yeah, and I\'m sure they were all really excited and happy about it. They really loved the horrors of war and they weren\'t nervous about it, they didn\'t vomit when watching their friends shot down like cannon fodder.
Please, not everyone acts like a movie star in "Pearl Harbor". I\'m not saying most of them weren\'t patriots or whatnot, but to say they were just THAT much better than \'us\' is BS. Glamourized BS.
Who the hell is referring to Pearl Harbor? Not me. I am talking about Normandy - and no I am not referring to Saving Private Ryan either. Yes they were nervous and scared, but they did it. There is no glamour in it, just honor and respect. Something a lot of people could learn today. I am sorry Samwise, but I am not a teenager nor do I get my opinions from movies. Its called talking to those people who actually experienced it.
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Originally posted by Dajo
No I don\'t have the answers.
I\'m blinded by patriotism.....Thus, having no answers.
Is that a jab at me?
Ace
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I used a movie reference to show my point; it doesn\'t mean you or I mentioned it before.
I just got a bit mad about you basically saying how \'our\' generation is shitty compared to \'the good old days\' where people would fight back. You just can\'t generalize to that extreme extent.
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Originally posted by Samwise
I used a movie reference to show my point; it doesn\'t mean you or I mentioned it before.
I just got a bit mad about you basically saying how \'our\' generation is shitty compared to \'the good old days\' where people would fight back. You just can\'t generalize to that extreme extent.
Before I start - a few things about me: I am 34 married, have a son 10 months old, employed, college graduate and not religious at all.
I have to disagree Samwise, our generation is crap. I don\'t think the generation that fought WW2 didn\'t have issues as well, but they came together during a time of crisis to defeat a common enemy of the free world. Our generation seems more concerned with having a good time and not owning up to responsibility. I am not saying this applies to everyone because it most definitely doesn\'t.
I wonder if the same people who are justifying the 9/11 attacks will justify them if a nuclear device is set off on American or British soil? I wonder if they will take the same "its our fault" tone. It wouldn\'t surprise me if they did.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
No offense Luckee, but you need to learn more about what you are talking about.
We are could stand to learn more about this, so dont point fingers. Id venture that 98% of the members in this forum dont know enough about any of the subjects we are discussing. MOst people wont know b/c most aren\'t directly involved. We are all speculating and reguritating rhetoric mixed in with facts, mixed in with media, mixed in with opinion..etc..etc.
ONe thing to remember is we are all entitled to state and have our own opinions in these matters. Even those that say kill em all and let "god" sort them out..
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Originally posted by Ace
Is that a jab at me?
Ace
No Ace, it\'s sarcasm.....
I agree with much that you have said Ace.
I have strong views and opinions on terrorism and radical Islamic followers. I have read many articles, books, and information about radical Islamics.
I don\'t want to express my feelings, cause it\'s a waste of time to do so here. Many of these kids(and adults) have no clue as to what they are talking about, and I have refrained from posting in these topics because I do have such a strong disagreement with many. I posted a few simple expressions of my thoughts. And I am now done with this topic.
If I continue to express my thoughts and opinions, I might piss someone off and they might leave the forums. I can\'t go chasing away all the "great members" here, now can I?
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
I have to disagree Samwise, our generation is crap. I don\'t think the generation that fought WW2 didn\'t have issues as well, but they came together during a time of crisis to defeat a common enemy of the free world. Our generation seems more concerned with having a good time and not owning up to responsibility. I am not saying this applies to everyone because it most definitely doesn\'t.
I can\'t really argue with that - it\'s your opinion and you\'re entitled to it.
Personally my life philosophy is to have fun and make life worth living - carpe diem I guess. Does that mean I wouldn\'t fight, say, Saddam Hussein if he invaded my country, threatning to take away all the things I love (freedom, in one word)? Hell no! Because a life without freedom is not worth living IMO. And that\'s why I wouldn\'t want to live anywhere but here (or another western country for that matter).
EDIT: Dajo, you might think you\'re right. But so does everyone else - opinions are like assholes, everyone\'s got one. Don\'t take things/discussions so seriously. It\'s not worth it. :)
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OK, I was just curious. I guess I didn\'t catch it because I get too worked up about this stuff. I don\'t want to create any enemies here either.
Ace
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Originally posted by Dajo
No Ace, it\'s sarcasm.....
I agree with much that you have said Ace.
I have strong views and opinions on terrorism and radical Islamic followers. I have read many articles, books, and information about radical Islamics.
I don\'t want to express my feelings, cause it\'s a waste of time to do so here. Many of these kids(and adults) have no clue as to what they are talking about, and I have refrained from posting in these topics because I do have such a strong disagreement with many. I posted a few simple expressions of my thoughts. And I am now done with this topic.
If I continue to express my thoughts and opinions, I might piss someone off and they might leave the forums. I can\'t go chasing away all the "great members" here, now can I?
I have to agree with you Dajo, the more I post the angrier I get at the ignorance of some. Its best not to post on this topic anymore.
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WTF... where did you get this information? Native Americans celebrating the World Trade Center attacks? What are these schools teaching you now a days? Some revisionist history it seems. Our countries growth was "Manifest Destiny" and you wouldn\'t have what you do today was it not for that.- Giga
I got that information from NA newsgroups and PBS documentaries. Good god, you don\'t think they support the Palestinians?? You don\'t think they\'ve commited terrorist attacks against Americans? And yet you seem to think I didn\'t pay attention in school or had wacked teachers? Good god man, I haven\'t even been to collage.. and you have. Where\'s your excuse for NOT knowing what their sentiment was???
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pbs.org%2Fkera%2Fusmexicanwar%2Fimages%2Fone80b.jpg&hash=fc846db988bb52cab1256a284dc5baf71ee96098)
As for Manifest Destiny.. that document is simply a load of horse shit. It\'s a justification for genocide.. we were "Doing the natives and land good by bringing our enlightened society to their lands." It reminds me of something Hitler would have written to explain how he was doing the Jews a favor by killing them. Certainly, their slave labor would have been a valuable resource in building Germany into a mighty country had Germany not lost the war. Does that make it right because the German\'s considered it their "Destiny" to cleanse the "Jewish Heathens" from the face of earth. For chists sake man, listen to what you\'re saying here. Yes, while I do enjoy living in this nation that, like most others, was built on the bones of the conquered.. I cannot help but look back and see what we did as morally and irreprehensibly WRONG in EVERY sence of the word. While I don\'t condone giving all of America back to the NA\'s, I do think we should take care of them as they are the last link to this nation\'s great history preceding us.. and should recognise the signs - the sights and sounds of other countries who are going through a similar period as we did and TRY not to make the same mistakes again. Learn from the past.. it\'s called advancement.
I am so sick of this politically correct BS. - Giga
It\'s not political correctness.. hell if you\'ve been here long enough you should know by now that I\'m one of the least PC guys on this forum. It\'s about doing what\'s morally right man.. not just backing the gov\'t in whatever they see fit to do. I\'m not telling you that you should feel bad.. I\'m sayin you should look at our past and LEARN from the mistakes we\'ve made and we should try to build a better humanity from there. Christ, no wonder that after 2000 years of cultural and scientific advancement.. we\'re right were we\'ve always been. At each other\'s throats, but this time with bigger and better weapons.
This Y generation should be called "Clinton Youth", bunch of sickening pacifist do nothings. - Giga
Could be worse.. I could be a "Bush Youth" and simply bomb your house for flaming me. :rolleyes:
Why don\'t you talk to some of the people that fought in WW2 who were only 18-19 years old at the time. Instead of going to college and playing with their PS2\'s they served their country without hesitation. Would you do the same? - Giga
Funny.. here I am sitting in a room full of Civil War memorabilia and more books on it than you could read in your lifetime.. staring up at a picture of a man crying to his buddies at the Vietnam wall.. listening to Sullivan Bellou set to the tone of Ashokan Farewell, and you\'re lecturing ME about my devotion to this country and my will to fight. How about you go back a about a year from this date with the forum search and look up that thread where I was encouraging other members here to join the military.. not to mention informing people on how to register for Selective Service (which is a law anyhow). I myself DID attempt to join the military, but was rejected due to two factors. I\'m an athesmatic and I am my father\'s only son. One I could possibly skirt around with a bit of help from the recruiter.. the other I could not.
As for talking with veterans.. both my father and my uncle are Vietnam vets as well. My father wouldn\'t talk much about it, since as he said "If you weren\'t there.. you couldn\'t possibly understand". However my uncle has some hilarious stories of taking blindfolded Vietnameese POWs about 5 feet of the ground and pushing them out of the helicopter in order to get them to reveal intelligence.
But of course, I wouldn\'t know anything about respecting American veterans or the defense of the American way of life because I\'m a "Clinton Genner" :rolleyes:
I just can\'t see your justification of what happened on 9/11 in any of your posts. - Giga
WTF should I have to justify it? I didn\'t do it. Should I have been admiting to something.. even if I\'m innocent, I guess you could call up the Homeland security council and still feel like you got "Something Done". :Rolleyes:
Bringing Native Americans into it is like mixing apples and oranges. - Giga
How so? I only brought them into the conversation because you brought the Palestinians into the convo. Their situations are errily similar, so I think it is the perfect contrast to discuss the Isriel/Palestine issue against. After all, most people feel sympathy for the NA\'s, (even if only when confronted by it) but don\'t feel sympathy for the Palestinians. Seems a bit hippocrytical to me.
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SonyFan, your argument is circular. You did justify the 9/11 attacks by comparing the Palestinians to the Native Americans and thus sympathizing with the view that our foreign policy brought these attacks on us. Are you a NA by chance? I have never heard someone ramble on about this topic like you do.
As for what is morally right... :rolleyes: your role model Bill Clinton is the perfect example of what is morally wrong with this country.
If you start bringing up compensation, why not include African Americans? Hell, why not make every Anglo American pay every non Anglo reparations for all the evil crimes our ancestors did.
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I\'m not pretending to know what SonyFan thinks, but I\'ll take a shot at answering the circular statement - just because he can see/sympatize with the Palestinians/NA\'s doesn\'t necessarily mean he\'s justifying what the terrorists did. Or am I missing something?
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I think you are missing something. September 11, 2001 was a terrible day for world - unless you are an Islamic extremist. Trying to rationalize what fundamentalists do is wrong whether they are Christian, Hindu, Islamic or Native American. We can agree to disagree as I will not change anyone\'s opinion nor will they change mine.
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I feel similar to what you have stated sammy.
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I\'m still a bit baffled about your logic. So because one can see the other side of an argument, so to speak, he\'s evil? Not a patriot? A terrorist perhaps? Bleh... I think we can all agree that what happend a year ago was terrible. It doesn\'t mean we can\'t think rationally about things though [not a stab at you Giga, just a general statement].
EDIT: I think this will conclude my participation in this thread. I\'m not angry at anyone, not even if they think the opposite of me. And we can\'t talk eachother into agreeing anyway, so I\'d rather just stop now. :)
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As the first plane hit, I was exiting the subways in downtown Manhattan, about 6 blocks away from the World Trade Center, on my way to work. A hideous and surreal day, nay, week, ensued. I wound up taking that entire week off from my courses, I would spontaneously burst into fits of sobbing. And now, a year later, here we are again. Only this time I actually work about 3 blocks away, off of Wall Street way downtown. I\'m sitting at my desk, unable to concentrate on my work, eyes tearing sporadically as I think of what has happened, all of the stories. *sighs*
I\'d like to think I have a relatively unique perspective on 9/11, being an Israeli/American (/Chilean/Argentine) living in New York currently. I spent four years (1996-2000) living in the Tel-Aviv area as well, that being Israel, btw. I\'ve always known that we Americans are generally very close/narrow-minded about world events, but 9/11 truly brought out all of the ugly little truths. Claims that Jews were inconspicuously absent in very large numbers during the WTC incident... rumors that it was all set up by Israel to discredit the Arab world... So what if 400 Jews didn\'t show up to work at the Twin Towers that day? How many people were actually there when the planes hit? 10,000? Well, on any given business day, upwards to 30-40,000 people could be present, in all. So of all those that weren\'t there, for whatever reason, is it really a surprise that 400 of them were Jews?
It\'s all propaganda, of course. In fact, Osama bin Laden is an American-made/trained/supplied monster, unleashed (successfully) upon the Russians way back when and then left to his own devices. And now we have to deal with him, finally. Whoever claimed that bin Laden couldn\'t give a crap about Palestinians, and that they weren\'t involved with 9/11 is absolutely right. However, Palestinians were cheering in the streets, celebrating the attacks... and they were BY FAR not alone in such activities within the Arab world, American allies or otherwise.
It greatly pains me to see so many of you completely misunderstand exactly what is going on in the Middle East, on both sides of the conflict, currently, and in the past. Israel is America\'s bitch, fending for scraps of obsolete technology from Bush\'s table? Please. Israeli military intelligence, tactics, technology is vastly superior to anything else in the world. It almost always has been, which is why we are still around despite being surrounded by enemies. (Yes, Israel is at peace with Jordan and Egypt, but if another Arab World vs. Israel war breaks out, you\'ll see just how long those peace treaties will last.) I mean, so what if Bush sold Barak a bunch of F-16s? Scraps, indeed. Quite frankly, in areas including, but not limited too, military arms, tactical intelligence, world-awareness, stealth, tracking (radar, sonar, whatever) and covert ops, Israel owns America completely.
Of course, all this has nothing to do with anything, really. I hope I\'ll be forgiven the confusing that may surround me using the term "we" both as an Israeli and an American, as I hold great love and loyalty for both. Anywho, the Israeli government does not condone or practice any form of terrorism. While it could be disputed that Israel\'s covert operations could be construed as a form of terrorism, Israel tracking down and assassinating the final Palestinian terrorist survivor responsible for the massacre that marred the Munich Olympic games in the 70s isn\'t terrorism, but a retliatory response to terrorism. Israel committing attack choppers to surgical strikes against factories and plants that are suspected of being part of Arafat\'s terrorist machine (which will very much survive him, and is probably truly beyond his control at this point) is not terrorism. Soldiers firing gas and rubber bullets at mobs incensed to storm military fortifications, mobs wielding rocks, no less, is not terrorism.
However, attacks against cafes, discotheques, clubs, restaurants, malls, bazaars, market places, shopping centers, and residential areas, whose only purpose is to cause grief, mental anguish, morale loss, and the loss of civilian life, IS terrorism. Attacks whose only purpose is what I listed above, and not intended to limit or damage a nation\'s military, technological, or strategic might, but a civilian population at large, are forms of terrorism. This is exactly what 9/11 was all about, anyone who thinks otherwise is woefully deluded. These forms of attacks cannot be justified or negotiated over. The source and means of such attacks MUST be eliminated. That has always been Israel\'s position, and it should be America\'s as well. At least Osama bin Laden doesn\'t hide behind a human wall composed of his own sons and daughters, as Palestinians are wont to do.
My intention with this post is not to change anyone\'s mind, only to inform as best I can, and allow others to draw their own conclusion. Those that allow their governments and media to formulate their opinions (be these Americans, Israelis, Afghanis, or Palestinians) are lacking the crucial knowledge to even BEGIN to enter such discussions. I am neither fully (as in 100%) pro American nor pro Israeli. I love America. I love Israel. I can\'t stand the current American government, or the Israeli one, both for completely different reasons. And a final word of advice... in these situations, there are neither true "good guys" or total "bad guys." Nothing is ever simply black and white, especially not religion, politics, or whatever results when they are tragically combined.
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SonyFan, your argument is circular. You did justify the 9/11 attacks by comparing the Palestinians to the Native Americans and thus sympathizing with the view that our foreign policy brought these attacks on us. Are you a NA by chance? I have never heard someone ramble on about this topic like you do. - Giga
No, your argument has reached a dead end. Like I said in the other 9/11 post, I never ONCE tried to justify what Al-Queda did on 9/11. I sympathise with the Palestinians.. but they\'re fighting Isriel.. not us. I can understand how they\'d be happy about us being attacked, considering we\'re suppliying their enemy with tanks, guns, and money. As I distinctly remember posting earlier tho.. not ONE of the 9/11 hijackers were Palestinian to the best of my knowlage. Most of them were Saudi or Egyptian. You\'re confusing Al-Queda vs. America with Isriel vs. Palestine. Now, I support going into Afghanistan and rooting out Al-Queda forces by any means necessarry.. which happened to include toppling the Taliban Gov\'t who was protecting them. I do NOT support the aid of Isriel in pushing the Palestinians out of their land. You, don\'t happen to see the distiction between the two groups do you? I would have assumed you would considering you brought up a point that we both agree on: Al-Queda and Osama Bin Laden could give a f*ck all less about the Palestinians. They\'re just a temporary justification he\'s using to recruit more members. Of course, while many Palestinians are members of Al-Queda.. many more so are radicals for the PLA - who\'s actions I understand yet don\'t condone.
As for what is morally right... your role model Bill Clinton is the perfect example of what is morally wrong with this country. - Giga
Elaborate. You may see supporting Clinton as something embarrasing or bad, but many others don\'t. Granted, I don\'t think he was a great president.. but he certainly wasn\'t Nixon or LBJ. If you think otherwise, please kindly cut you\'re Rush Limbaugh jerk off hour down to 25 minuites a day. Give it a month.. and you should begin to snap out of it.
If you start bringing up compensation, why not include African Americans? Hell, why not make every Anglo American pay every non Anglo reparations for all the evil crimes our ancestors did. - Giga
I never said anything about compensation. I simply think we should respect and cherish what we have left of their great culture before it is gone from us forever. I don\'t think this generation should be held responsible for the sins of a past generation. However we should learn from that generation\'s mistakes, and try not to repeat them. That includes NOT taking anymore of their land... and NOT screwing them over when we shortchange them for resources bought off of their reservations such as timber, oil, and animals... which we are still doing regularly.
BTW: I do not consider myself American Indian. There is no moment of hesitation when I fill out a form asking for my ethnicity. I am, however, directly decended from Chief Little Turtle of the Miami Indian tribe. It really sucks when you go to look up the history of your family, and the cultures they came from.. only to find that there really is no culture left because what little bit was left after the geocide was destoryed by the Catholic church in their attempt to "civilize the heathens".. or Manifest Destiny.. how ever you like to put it.
That, and I admire the values and philosophies of the NA people. I can\'t help but get upset when people talk about how it was a good thing that they were wiped out.. that they were uncivilized. How the language of a people who had no words for "Enemy", "Theif", or "Liar".. was considered barbaric and wiped out because it was the white man\'s "Destiny" to do so.
It\'s so funny.. here you sit and preach about America and defending it\'s values.. yet shove Manifest Destiny in my face when that document killed the people who INSPIRED our forefathers to revolt against British opression.. who\'s way of life molded our ideals of freedom and liberty.
You talk to me like I\'m ignorant.. and yet that\'s all I ever hear spewing from your mouth. I think you\'ve argued your way into a corner because of a misplaced sence of "American Pride" and a simple misunderstanding of what I said.. one that you attacked without even trying to understand where I\'m comming from.
Typical.
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Israel\'s policy is not to oust or remove the Palestinians. Cut a poll of the Israeli people and you\'ll realize that the overwhelming majority are in support of a peaceful Palestinian state, just not one which divides Israeli territory that we MUST keep for security purposes, not one which will result in a divided Jerusalem (even though Israel has never closed off her capital to any religion, Christian, Muslim, or Hebrew. The cause of the majority of the POLITICAL strife between Israel and Palestine is border disputes and the Israeli settlements along the hazy border (settlements which I feel SHOULD be removed, by the way.) However, the majority of the attacks that Israel faces, and the inevitable retaliatory/deterant responses are more of a religious nature. After all, the Palestian youth is brainwashed into fighting a Jihad, a holy war, by corrupt political and religious leaders who promise them that should they give up their lives by taking those of Israelis, they will enter a heaven which will reward them eternally with a harem of 72 virgins. (Honestly, I can never remember the actual number they are promised, but it was something stupidly high, like that.) It doesn\'t help when those like the Saudi government award the families of those who "sacrificed themselves" (suicide bombers) financially.
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You really amaze me SonyFan. Your ignorance just keeps growing and growing. Do I need to spell everything out for you?
Clinton: Lied under oath, committed adultry god knows how many times. You think Nixon was a great President?
:laughing: ok so he did normalize relations with China...
Oh please Native Americans pay no taxes and for the most part rake cash in from casinos and what not. You make it sound like everyone of NA decent is living on a reservation.
You are ignorant SonyFan and uneducated. You should be able to understand what I am referring to without having me spell it out for you. You continue to throw insults my way so I have decided to fire a few back. I am not even conservative and it has nothing to do with being Republican, Democrat or Independent.
Somehow you have managed to turn this from a thread about 9/11 into a crusade to spread awareness of the suffering of Native Americans :rolleyes:
You should go to Washington you would make a good activist.
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i dunno i find this a little sick...
but id just come of my break at work.. and all the peep was saying about it.....
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Ok Mejian, I can understand the need for having protection.. but how far is it going to go? Won\'t it be a hassle to move troops through Palestinian territory to the Israili borders since (as I understand it) Isriel controls territory on both sides of the nation? It seems silly to me to have a country devided into several border territories while still leaving the middle open for another government and ethnic group.. expecially where there is so much mistrust and bitterness between them?
Really, the only secure and feasable route to go is to have a unified country as either all Isriel or all Palestine.. one which can draw resources from nearby sources without having to worry about ship them clear across the nation or haggling with the locals over what\'s Isreili territory and what\'s not when they are needed. I think the Palestinians fear the need for security and resources will drive Israilies farther and farther into their territory. A sort of, "Manifest Destiny" of Israilies own in a sence. I\'m not saying the Israilies are evil.. don\'t think that.. and I know that they (above all others) should know the face of genocide and wish to avoid it. Still, a great many evils have been done unintentionally.. and this could happen in Isriel if they\'re not careful.
At least you agree with me that Isriel should withdrawl from their occupied territories, as I\'m sure a great many Israilie citizens do.
As for a difference in Political reasons and Religeous ones, it\'s my understanding that religeon and politics are closely intertwined over there.. at least for the Palestinians. (Isriel has adopted a seperation of Church and State policy similar to America no?) It\'s because of the oppression they feel that they are driven to such means. Religeous leaders use their and their families situations to provide them with an easy out. (The 72 or whatever virgins in heaven, guanteed) I hate to see you use the term brainwashing, since I believe that IS in their bible somewhere.. but I am forced to admit that most all organized religeon is just mass brainwashing. Look at the fools giving their money to Televangelists over here for a free ticket to heaven, after all.
And I agree that someone must find a way to stop independant financeers from paying cash sums to the families of suicide bombers. That right there would cut down on the terrorist attacks greatly. One thing about the terrorist bombing tho.. as I\'ve said I don\'t condone them. Don\'t think (unlike other people here) that I do. My opinion of them however would turn around 180 digrees into most likely full support if they were directed solely at military targets.
On a final note: I don\'t think the situation will make any progress until both Arafat and Barak are out of office and replaced with cooler headed leaders. Shouldn\'t be too hard for Isriel.. but finding a leader that is willing to broker peace and still gain the support of the Palestinian people will be a difficult task. Good luck to everyone ~Palestinian and Israili alike~ if Arafat is replaced by one of the more militant members of the PLO.
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I wonder what would happen if the UN stepped in and took away what they originally gave both sides. Id bet they would manage to figure something out quite quickly if neither one of them had any land.
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Well, I was on holiday in Tenerife, just watched it on TV all day
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Erm, Gig.. yer digging yerself deep here.. you realize that right?
1. Yes, Clinton lied under oath. So? A lie is a lie, weither under oath or not.. and all presidents have done it. This is such a petty little argument, and one that even a shred of common sence should blast apart. Even you\'re precious Bushies and Regans have lied before. (Although, I can\'t quite blame Regan.. after all.. he was so senile durring his second term that it\'s amazing he could remember his own name.)
As for Adultry.. lol.. what does that have to do with how a guy preforms his job? Picasso could have a been a man-whore, but does that make his paintings any less impressive? No. Why should it be the defining mark of weither a president is good or not? Well I guess Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, FDR, JFK, and many -MANY- others were all horrible horrible presidents as well. Jesus, the only reason it\'s a big deal is because the Republicans MADE it one. Ugh.. see Ace.. this is the brainwashing the gov\'t does through the media I was talking about earlier.
2. As for Nixon being a great president..are you really that dence or are you jus caught up in the heat of the argument and not paying attention. Once AGAIN, you\'ve totally misconstrued my meaning. That\'s what.. 0 for 4 here? Do I have to use one sylable words to talk to you now or something? LBJ and Nixon were far worse presidents than Clinton, which is why I said that while he may not be great.. he\'s not the worst (which I, and most people, equate with Johnson and Dickky N.) Well, some may not agree with my assessment of LBJ, but I think he was a SOB - totally fuxored up our efforts in Vietnam - LIED to the public - and generally jus skirted by with no real claim to fame other than to pissed off Vietnam vets and JFK conspiracy theorists.
3. As for Native Americans not paying taxes.. that would be because they\'re not AMERICAN CITIZENS. *Gasp* BTW: Great choice you\'re MD mentality left these people. Either assimilate into our culture or run a casino. It\'s not like there\'s a whole lot of choice considering the sparce land they occupy.. usually deserts berift of any real natural resources. Raking in cash.. lol.. have you ever even BEEN to a reservation? Huh?
And since when did I say everyone of NA decent lives on a reservation? Yes, most of this generation is growing up and going to collage.. leaving the reservation to become American citizens. Where\'s their culture? The reservation. Where\'s they\'re lifestyle? The Reservation. Where\'s their Language? The Reservation. Where is the only place they can celebrate many of their rituals? The Reservation.
You really astound me, you know that. /me shakes his head.
Yet, after all this.. you can still call me "Ignorant and Uneducated". These are the best arguments you can hit me with? Petty quabbles about Clinton and a complete and (might i say) dangerously ignorant view of NA\'s. What I\'ve tried to do with this thread is open up a dimension of debate by adding in a similar situation to compair and contrast.. however it\'s turned into an " NA awareness" thread because you\'re blatantly ignorant on the subject that you can\'t even discuss it properly - forcing me to correct you. Not to mention that YOU\'RE the one who invited the parallel in the first place by bringing up the Palestinians when there was absolutely NO reason to do so.
Crusade.. pah.. I\'ve kept it contained to one thread. Woohoo.. while you tried to spread the argument to another completely seperate thread. Nice bait, but I ain\'t takin it. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by SonyFan
Erm, Gig.. yer digging yerself deep here.. you realize that right?
1. Yes, Clinton lied under oath. So? A lie is a lie, weither under oath or not.. and all presidents have done it. This is such a petty little argument, and one that even a shred of common sence should blast apart. Even you\'re precious Bushies and Regans have lied before. (Although, I can\'t quite blame Regan.. after all.. he was so senile durring his second term that it\'s amazing he could remember his own name.)
As for Adultry.. lol.. what does that have to do with how a guy preforms his job? Picasso could have a been a man-whore, but does that make his paintings any less impressive? No. Why should it be the defining mark of weither a president is good or not? Well I guess Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, FDR, JFK, and many -MANY- others were all horrible horrible presidents as well. Jesus, the only reason it\'s a big deal is because the Republicans MADE it one. Ugh.. see Ace.. this is the brainwashing the gov\'t does through the media I was talking about earlier.
2. As for Nixon being a great president..are you really that dence or are you jus caught up in the heat of the argument and not paying attention. Once AGAIN, you\'ve totally misconstrued my meaning. That\'s what.. 0 for 4 here? Do I have to use one sylable words to talk to you now or something? LBJ and Nixon were far worse presidents than Clinton, which is why I said that while he may not be great.. he\'s not the worst (which I, and most people, equate with Johnson and Dickky N.) Well, some may not agree with my assessment of LBJ, but I think he was a SOB - totally fuxored up our efforts in Vietnam - LIED to the public - and generally jus skirted by with no real claim to fame other than to pissed off Vietnam vets and JFK conspiracy theorists.
3. As for Native Americans not paying taxes.. that would be because they\'re not AMERICAN CITIZENS. *Gasp* BTW: Great choice you\'re MD mentality left these people. Either assimilate into our culture or run a casino. It\'s not like there\'s a whole lot of choice considering the sparce land they occupy.. usually deserts berift of any real natural resources. Raking in cash.. lol.. have you ever even BEEN to a reservation? Huh?
And since when did I say everyone of NA decent lives on a reservation? Yes, most of this generation is growing up and going to collage.. leaving the reservation to become American citizens. Where\'s their culture? The reservation. Where\'s they\'re lifestyle? The Reservation. Where\'s their Language? The Reservation. Where is the only place they can celebrate many of their rituals? The Reservation.
You really astound me, you know that. /me shakes his head.
Yet, after all this.. you can still call me "Ignorant and Uneducated". These are the best arguments you can hit me with? Petty quabbles about Clinton and a complete and (might i say) dangerously ignorant view of NA\'s. What I\'ve tried to do with this thread is open up a dimension of debate by adding in a similar situation to compair and contrast.. however it\'s turned into an " NA awareness" thread because you\'re blatantly ignorant on the subject that you can\'t even discuss it properly - forcing me to correct you. Not to mention that YOU\'RE the one who invited the parallel in the first place by bringing up the Palestinians when there was absolutely NO reason to do so.
Crusade.. pah.. I\'ve kept it contained to one thread. Woohoo.. while you tried to spread the argument to another completely seperate thread. Nice bait, but I ain\'t takin it. :rolleyes:
tsk tsk :rolleyes:
When you get an education past the 10th grade let me know Sony...
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
When you get an education past the 10th grade let me know Sony...
I\'m sorry, but that was a little low. No, it was VERY low. A man\'s education doesn\'t dictate his intelligence NOR knowledge.
EDIT: Lol, changed a word that was slightly out of place... that\'s what you get when writing replies in the commercial breaks. :D
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I was going to give you some type of respect in some of your postings, but if that is all you can respond with, I think Im going to have to dismiss most if not all of what you say.
At this time..hell it should have been clearly and explicitly mentioned before. I think we all need to calm down abit and post rationaly without insults and smart remarks that can be mistaken as insults b/c each of us have different OPINIONS
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Originally posted by Samwise
I\'m sorry, but that was a little low. No, it was VERY low. A man\'s education doesn\'t dictate his intelligence NOR knowledge.
Well Samwise, I PM\'d him telling him it was a fun debate no hard feelings etc etc and he keeps attacking me. Whatever... this thread has gone to pot.
I took the liberty of editing the quote as well, hope you don\'t mind -Sam[/size]
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Originally posted by luckee
I was going to give you some type of respect in some of your postings, but if that is all you can respond with, I think Im going to have to dismiss most if not all of what you say.
Eh... he was the one who started attacking me... I guess that is what happens when you really do have a weak argument. Anyway I already dismiss everything you say Luckee
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Well Samwise, I PM\'d him telling him it was a fun debate no hard feelings etc etc and he keeps attacking me. Whatever... this thread has gone to pot.
I\'m inclined to agree. I only started it as a "where & what where you doing at..." thread. All of a sudden, it\'s turned into a slanging match.
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I attacked you first? Please.. quote me on where I attacked you first. After all, it wasn\'t until you claimed me to be a "Clinton Genner" (A negetive statement by the way it was used in context, since you obviously have a problem with Clinton) and claiming I was full of PC BS. It wasn\'t until after that, that this thread started to excilate into more of an argument than a discussion.
BTW: You could have made your intentions clear here in the forum. I don\'t check my PM\'s often, and I haven\'t even left this section of the forum since we started debating. There was no way to see it. A simple "check your PM\'s" would have sufficed.
Oh.. and no.. I don\'t hold a grudge. This is the internet.. and it\'s not like insulted Sierra or anything. :p I think you\'re a lil more ignorant than before.. you think I\'m a lil more ignorant than before. Heh.. happens all the time between members on these forums - and any scrap of animocity I have towards you is gone as soon as leave this thread.
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I won\'t pretend to know much about the Native Americans, but I can and will say that the Palestinian/Israeli parallels were essentially introduced only because of misinformation and false assumptions.
I mentioned Israeli PM Barak because he held the office at that time, but since then Ariel Sharon has taken over that office. Arafat, whether or not he can actually control the terrorist regime he helped create and continues to support, has been taken out of all political equations as far as the Israeli gov\'t is concerned, that\'s the one thing I do agree with, at least. Sharon is actually an Israeli general, and if ANYONE in Israel\'s government would have had the guts (and stupidity) to kill Arafat, it would have been him. And we ALL know that he had plenty of opportunities to do so, but the fact is, and Israel recognizes this, that a live Arafat with little actual power is much less of a problem than a dead and martyred one. That is the only reason Arafat still lives today.
Yes, politics and religion are deeply intertwined in the Middle East, sadly, in Israel as well. It may be a democracy, but it is one that granted a (now very influential) political party to the Orthodox religious Jews living there. Sadly.
The whole Israeli Manifest Destiny thing also doesn\'t apply, since Israel is in no way seeking expansion of her borders. We have been more than willing to negotiate down to fairer borders, but we will NOT return to the ridiculous Oslo accord borders, which would spark a situation much like happened in the 1950s and 1960s. Had Israel been seeking genocide, they could have accomplished it long ago, multiple times. To think that Israel seeks to wipe out Palestine is ludicrous. One of the original contributing factors to the ongoing Palestinian/Israeli conflict is the Arab World\'s unanimous rejection of the UN\'s original plans for a United State of Palestine (and Israel) after WWII, and the horrible way which the other countries, such as Jordan, treated the Palestinian "refugees."
The issue of religion and brainwashing is not one I\'m going to visit here, but I can assure you that nowhere in the Koran does it say that all good Muslim boys (and now women too) are supposed to go and self-detonate themselves, taking out as many Israeli\'s as possible. Anyone who has been led to that belief or conclusion under religious or political guidance has been brainwashed. And this type of mentality is the norm in Palestine and many other Arab nations, where the government overtly controls the media.
I don\'t have any maps readily available to show the current border disputes between Palestine and Israel, but I can say one thing. Should Israel and Palestine ever come into a mutual agreement concerning borders, Israel would be the one that would actually do their best to maintain the status quo. It\'s the Arab world that can\'t be trusted in that regard, as has been demonstrated repeatedly in the past 50 years.
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For **** sake, 3000 or more people died exactly a year ago today, and some of ya\'ll are argueing of what we should mourn over.
Why this day?
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I remember every detail but it is a bit long to write. Maybe I\'ll write it later. Long story short, I was at school and they announced it then.
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Back to the topic , I had just arrived at work and it was being shown live on Sky news.
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I just got back from skool, my dad shouted me through and it was on sky news, i just thought it was some kind of new movie but then realised it wasn\'t.