PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Blade on September 11, 2002, 04:33:34 PM
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Rare: The Full Story
No more rumors.
September 11, 2002 - In past months, UK development studio Rare has been the subject of a seemingly endless stream of rumors, all of them suggesting the company would break from Nintendo\'s wings and possibly join with a new publisher. Now we have the full story, anonymously confirmed by numerous credible, high-level insiders. The reports are true. We stake our reputation on it.
Nintendo, formerly a 49% shareholder in Rare, had the chance to purchase the company outright nearly a year ago, but refused, according to high-ranking sources. With Rare software contributions amounting to only 9.5% of total revenues in Nintendo\'s fiscal 2001 year, and a miniscule 1.5% in fiscal 2002, the publisher weighed the benefits and drawbacks of making additional investments in Rare and decided against it.
Rare went on the market. Publishers bid on the company. Activision and Microsoft were both interested in acquiring Rare, but it was Microsoft who won out and delivered the asking prices for the developer and Nintendo\'s 49% stake in it. Nintendo sold all of its shares in Rare, according to insiders, and the studio\'s second-party status was terminated.
The obvious questions then: why all of the secrecy and why haven\'t Rare, Nintendo or Microsoft made any announcements? The truth is that the details have not been finalized. Insiders allege that Nintendo and Rare are still haggling over licenses, and specifically whether or not Rare will be able to purchase the properties it worked on under the Nintendo brand, including Perfect Dark and other trademarks Nintendo holds. Franchises and characters created and owned by Nintendo, of course, including Donkey Kong, will remain in Nintendo\'s control. An official announcement, though, is not far off. The latest word is that the news will be made public at Microsoft\'s X02 Europe event which begins September 24 in Seville, Spain.
Meanwhile, sources indicate that Nintendo plans to utilize some of the money it made in the selling of its Rare shares to entice other development studios to make GameCube software, fund new games, and more. The company\'s de-emphasized focus on a second-party model and its new partnerships with Namco, Sega, Capcom and others exemplifies its change in development philosophy, and leaves no room for an expensive investment in Rare.
Look for much more on this major news as it develops.
IGN\'s new report. Well, I guess that\'s it. Rare is bought by MS, and now Rare is haggling with Nintendo to get the rights to the games they made with Nintendo. (barring Donkey Kong & Star Fox, of course)
So SFA will come out, and then Rare is done with Nintendo. They may still bring out new GBA games.
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Yep.... Nothing huge... Rare is really overrated.
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I\'ll still wait for the official announcement, but damn. Good move MS!
Rare\'s games have always been above average, in fact most of them with very little flaw.
Now that MS has acquired them, I\'m hoping that MS throws a little in the funds and gets more developers on Rare\'s side so that we can get more than 5 games every generation of consoles.
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good move, IMO. Perfect Dark was one of the best shooters of last generation. I don\'t care for their platformers, but gimme another one of those and it will all be gravy! :)
I think MS will allow them more freedom in development, though, which could be a good thing or bad thing depending on how you look at it.
Eric Jacob
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Meanwhile, sources indicate that Nintendo plans to utilize some of the money it made in the selling of its Rare shares to entice other development studios to make GameCube software, fund new games, and more. The company\'s de-emphasized focus on a second-party model and its new partnerships with Namco, Sega, Capcom and others exemplifies its change in development philosophy, and leaves no room for an expensive investment in Rare.
Who thinks this is a bad move?
While I am happy to see Nintendo stepping up the competition with 3rd party support, I also think exclusive content and exlcusive developers are key to success.
Nintendo just sold one of it\'s most talented developers. IMO, they should have thrown some more money towards Rare, beef up the staff and increase the output of games.
Rare has what it takes and has always made million sellers. While Capcom, Sega, and Namco are all very capable of making equally impressive games...they are making them for everyone else too.
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I think it\'s more a gain for MS than a loss for Nintendo.
Face it Rare did nothing for the GC and there were no future titles beyond SFA (ok there was PD in 2005 or something).
I think I\'ll live but it really irks me that all of the sudden Xbox fanboys think Kameo is cool, PD is great, and Rare is great. Before Kameo was kiddy, PD couldn\'t come close to Halo, and they couldn\'t care less about Rare.
Not only that but now everyone is talking about MS buying everyone.
I hate you MS. I really do. This only adds to my growing lack of respect for them (not them buying Rare but just buying everyone!).
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Rare lost its rights to Perfect Dark, Nintendo has them.
There are gonna be a lot of battling back and forth for certain games and such.
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Nintendo should of bought Rare. They depended on them durin\' the previous generations and they still could of proved to be a valueable asset.
On the flip side; great move for MS, provided MS will be able to tolerate the one thing Rare is known for and that is delays. Speaking of which, I\'m curious how much this will even effect MS. Is it to late for them to make a great comeback this generation? Let\'s assume that Rare has not started developing their first Xbox title and they start once this deal is over. Now take the amount of time Rare usually takes for a game (3-4 years) and it should be about time for the Xbox 2....*shrugs*
I don\'t know, I\'m just curious as to how this change is goin\' to effect Rare and how much will actually help MS. I\'ve got a feelin\' it won\'t help MS that much. Rare fanboys have typically been Nintendo fanboys and they will start screaming betrayal by Rare and how MS is using "strong arm" tactics to buy companies.
The truth is that the details have not been finalized. Insiders allege that Nintendo and Rare are still haggling over licenses, and specifically whether or not Rare will be able to purchase the properties it worked on under the Nintendo brand, including Perfect Dark and other trademarks Nintendo holds. Franchises and characters created and owned by Nintendo, of course, including Donkey Kong, will remain in Nintendo\'s control.
I wonder how this little bit will work out. Will Nintendo get to keep Perfect Dark, Banjo - Kazooie series? If so, Rare will be forced to come up with completely new series. If Nintendo holds the trademarks on them, like this article says (if I read it right) then they may very well get to keep those franchises, thus hurtin\' Rare.
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I just got my Gamecube dammit!
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Didn\'t Nintendo have alot of influence as to what Rare was developing? Having almost 50% of stock and I would say so.
It\'s only been recently that Nintendo has started to broaden their appeal. Being on Xbox, and owned by MS...they have the added benefits of a fat pocket book, and more than likely that could lead to bigger staff.
After a move like this...I wouldn\'t be so quick to assume that MS\'s time is up now, or anytime in the near future. They have shown their willingness to compete and seem to grow every time I read something new about MS.
How did Rare lose it\'s right to PD? Rare owned it in the first place.
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Rare has the Perfect Dark copyrights and all that in the US Trademark office or whatever, someone from GA provided a link detailing it.
Eric Jacob
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Rather than create another thread, I\'ll just ask here.
What is all this talk about MS buying out Venvindi? (sp?)
Who are they, what did they make. Over at TXB, everyone is making a big deal about a possible buy out. That and Sega.
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Sega is out of the question, but Vivendi is a media conglomerate, they own Universal, Blizzard, and Sierra. (I don\'t really know for sure, I believe so). They are in the hole alot of money and are looing to cut some fat. So a possible buyout of some of their seperate entities or the whole chunk is possible.
Eric Jacob
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Bad move for Nintendo, good for MS.
Like it was said above, good exclusives are the key to success. IF MS and Rare do get a hold of franchises like Perfect Dark, this will be huge for MS. If they don\'t I doubt it\'ll have that big of an effect.
Then there is the fact that PD will compete with Halo. MS zealots praise Halo like it\'s their savior, so I doubt a game like PD0 on Xbox would sell as well as PD0 on the GameCube.
I have a feeling that MS won\'t put up with the delays of Rare. They\'ll probably force rare to release their games without all the features Rare wanted. For some reason I don\'t see MS beefing up the Rare development team....
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*agree\'s with everything the man above me said.*
Bravo!
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nataku, you\'re from Nebraska? what part?
Eric Jacob
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It\'s Official.
Taken from Shacknews:
quote:
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While I wasn\'t able to get anyone on record, I was able to get several (read several) off the record confirmations that last night\'s Microsoft/Rare deal has been signed. Apparently I\'m not the only one, as this insider-only article at IGN says the same thing. I wasn\'t able to confirm that outrageous, near a half-billion USD figure, but I\'m certain of the rest of it. Regarding Rare\'s current projects, I did get a tip from two different sources that Kameo: Elements of Power will make the leap to Microsoft\'s console, and that Perfect Dark 2 may as well, providing a settlement can be reached with Nintendo to transfer the rights. It\'s a stunning turn of events to see Nintendo\'s most prized second party developer, and the one largely responsible for the lifespan of the N64 jump ship so suddenly.
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Taken from PlanetGamecube:
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News Article: Microsoft Swallows Rare
News Date: 09/12/2002
You knew it was coming. Get all the info right here…
According to our sources inside Nintendo, Nintendo has officially sold its share of Rare to Microsoft. Last year, Nintendo had the opportunity to purchase the company, and refused. Rare put up the for sale sign and was looked at by both Microsoft and Activision. Microsoft won the bidding war, and Nintendo cut its ties with Rare. That’s what we do know.
Star Fox Adventures is still due out on September 23rd, but GBA titles like Sabre Wulf, Diddy Kong Pilot, Donkey Kong: Coconut Crackers, and Banjo Kazooie are still an unknown. We are assuming that at least 1 or 2 of these are already finished, and should be released by the end of the year, if not early next year.
This announcement is said to be made official at Microsoft’s X02 Europe event in Seville, Spain on September 24th. Ironically, it\'s the day after Nintendo ships Rare’s one and only GameCube title.
We are expecting official comment from Nintendo sometime today.
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Well this just sucks. Star Fox Adventures will be the only Rare Gamecube title and quite possibly the last Nintendo game by them as well.
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Sorry I didn\'t see the topic on this.
Admin please delete.
Edit: Better yet, I\'ll just merge it into this thread. In case anyone is confused, Chuck posted another thread just abit ago about this recent news. Instead of deletin\' the thread, I just merged it with his source / post . I figure every bit of news on this is worth see\'ing or reading. So, if anyone else has any other links about this, post \'em here. [/color]
Living-In-Clip
;)
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"Vivendi is a media conglomerate, they own Universal, Blizzard, and Sierra." - Altered.
Ayup. Vivendi is the company which bought up Blizzard, and Sierra after Havas cut them loose. Hmm not sure.. or maybe Vivendi is a subsidiary of Havas? Dosen\'t matter tho.. those are still the companies which we\'re talking about. Although one thing strikes me as odd... why didn\'t Sony try to put in their bid? Granted, they\'ve got plenty of high quality 3rd parties already.. but this is Rare we\'re talking about, one of the most respected 2nd parties in the biz. Yet, from what I\'ve heard they\'re vigorously persuing a bid for Vivendi.
I dunno.. a certain small part of me would like to see Sierra owned by Sony and LucasArts owned by Microsoft.. and see that old rivalry sparked again with all the good natured backbiting and vicious jokes. A greater part of me would like to see Sega or LucasArts own Sierra because of their common pasts.
Most of all tho.. I just want to see Ken Williams in charge again.. and to see Sierra become a leader in the industry like they once were... not owned by anyone. They were one of the founders of the PC gaming industry.. It almost seems like a sin to see them owned by a console company. :(
Anyhow, Kudos to MS for securing one of the best 2nd parties in the buisness.. but like Nataku, I wonder how this will affect the quality of their games. MS jus spent half a billion on them.. will they really be satisfied with one game every 2-3 years?
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http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/020912/0337000147_1.html
What the hell? Is Nintendo selling their shares or not?
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bah, console gaming takes another turn down the dark path
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Originally posted by nataku
Like it was said above, good exclusives are the key to success. IF MS and Rare do get a hold of franchises like Perfect Dark, this will be huge for MS. If they don\'t I doubt it\'ll have that big of an effect.
A good game is still that...a good game. Rare has an awesome reputation for almost flawless games. Regardless of the character, they will still be great. With that reputation comes its\' own hype for every game coming down the pipeline. If Project Gotham, Dead or Alive 3, and Halo can be million sellers... you can expect even more so from Rare. That\'s a given.
Then there is the fact that PD will compete with Halo. MS zealots praise Halo like it\'s their savior, so I doubt a game like PD0 on Xbox would sell as well as PD0 on the GameCube.
So I guess since Ratchet & Clank is on the same system as Jak & Daxter that people will just turn their heads away from one of them? That doesn\'t make sense. I highly doubt MS will have Halo and Perfect Dark compete around the same release date. Halo 2 is due out late next year, then Perfect Dark in 2004...looks like the perfect filler/follow-up if you ask me.
I have a feeling that MS won\'t put up with the delays of Rare. They\'ll probably force rare to release their games without all the features Rare wanted. For some reason I don\'t see MS beefing up the Rare development team....
If MS has come this far, and spent this much money...do you honestly think they would just throw it away? Rare is not a going to be some trophy, Ms bought them for a reason. Again, I highly doubt MS will let such an investment be a waste of their time.
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mm, how is this bad for the industry?
Sonyfan, yes Sega buying Sierra would be great, since the two used to be (I am talking about heads of staff) very close. I mean, I have got a Sega Visions with a write-up from Ken in it.
Eric Jacob
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I can see some of Rare\'s top guy\'s walking like Dave Doak & Steve Ellis quit Rare to set up FRD
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Originally posted by MAKAVELIUK
I can see some of Rare\'s top guy\'s walking like Dave Doak & Steve Ellis quit Rare to set up FRD
I keep wondering whether deals like this would get made if a companies top employees have no contract to stay on for at least a few years with the outfit that\'s being sold.
Oh, and BTW:
You will all be assimilated!
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I\'ve got that same issue, Eric. Sitting right next to me actually. Their relationship goes much deeper than that tho, with employees regularly switching back and forth between companies. I\'ve even heard em diss Nintnedo several times while talking up Sega in various articals, interviews, and such.
Heh, I wonder how they\'d feel about being owned by Nintnedo should the big N decide to buy them out. (Highly unlikely.. but still within the realm of possiblity) I don\'t think Sierra has produced one single solitary game for Nintnedo past KQ5 on the NES. They\'re all over Sega, Sony, and MS\'s sacks tho.
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M$ can\'t keep buying their games and going through cash like water. Y can\'t developers develop for them before being bribed huge wads of cash, is there no loyalty where there\'s no money? We\'ll I guess with M$ there\'s always money.
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Is it just me, or does this remind anyone of when Sony entered the market?
Just saying... :)
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^guess no one\'s going to argue that.;)
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It\'s different for Sony, because they aren\'t evil!!! They don\'t buy companies that make games for other systems, nor exclusive titles (hides Tomb Raider and Psygnosis)
Eric Jacob
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Gamecube\'s top guns now are Midway and Acclaim.
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Originally posted by shockwaves
Is it just me, or does this remind anyone of when Sony entered the market?
Just saying... :)
Can you refresh my memory? What developers did they buy?
To say the least, I\'m not mad about Rare being bought out my Microsoft - it doesn\'t affect me, although Rare would have been a good reason to get GameCube. Guess that won\'t be happening now...
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Can you refresh my memory? What developers did they buy?
I\'ll answer this one with a quote from Altered:
They don\'t buy companies that make games for other systems, nor exclusive titles (hides Tomb Raider and Psygnosis)
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me/ sees Tomb Raider for Saturn, DC, and PC...
Uhh yeah, same as MS buying Rare :rolleyes:
Whatever floats yer MS boat load fellas
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me/ sees Tomb Raider for Saturn, DC, and PC...
After Tomb Raider took off, did you see Tomb Raider 2 or 3 anywhere else but PSX and PC?
No, you didn\'t. That\'s because Sony inked an exclusive deal that didn\'t end until 2000 if I\'m correct.
Then Psygnosis and Naughty Dog were bought up too.
Uhh yeah, same as MS buying Rare
Whatever floats yer MS boat load fellas
MS is just being more aggressive, can you blame them? They entered a market where Sony is at their prime and Nintendo is throwing in all the cards to make a comeback.
It\'s all business.
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Originally posted by Ginko
After Tomb Raider took off, did you see Tomb Raider 2 or 3 anywhere else but PSX and PC?
No, you didn\'t. That\'s because Sony inked an exclusive deal that didn\'t end until 2000 if I\'m correct.
The Saturn went belly up in the US shortly after TR2 was released. TRLR was released for DC. Inky deals I\'ve never read aside, TR being released on PC as well falls short of exclusive. If you want to talk about inked exclusive deals try HALO
Originally posted by Ginko
Then Psygnosis and Naughty Dog were bought up too.
Psygnosis, that was which- a Sega or Nintendo first/second party? Don\'t even mention ND, they had a long standing close relationship with Sony before recently hitching up.
Originally posted by Ginko
MS is just being more aggressive, can you blame them?
Being so much more aggressive is a stark difference. And no, I can\'t blame MS for trying to buy their way into a market instead of earning it. After all, having the more powerful console doesn\'t seem to have gotten them squat so far.
Originally posted by Ginko
They entered a market where Sony is at their prime and Nintendo is throwing in all the cards to make a comeback.
It\'s all business.
Sony entered the console market and filled a huge void. MS is attempting to force it\'s way in.
There are such things as good business and bad business.
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I couldn\'t agree more with you Heretic. If I may add, Psygnosis was aquired by Sony quite some time after the PSX\'s launch - besides, I don\'t remember Psygnosis developing for any other consoles other than PSX at the time. Wipeout, Wipeout 2097 and the F1 series was only out for PSX and therefore only made sense for them to become SCE-Liverpool. Naughty Dog also approached Sony, which, if you look at their history, isn\'t very hard to believe. It\'s something I would have expected from Rare (going to Nintendo).
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Psygnosis, that was which- a Sega or Nintendo first/second party? - Heretic
???? :eek: Dude.. they were a PC developer and I think they dabbled in consoles jus a hair before the 32bit generation. Nothing more than a small handful of ports of their PC titles IF that. Didn\'t you ever play Shadow of the Beast?? That game kicked some ass for it\'s day.
Psygnosis was always a decent/good developer in my book. Naughty Dog were nobodys pretty much until they struck gold with the Crash Bandicoot series. I agree with most of the people here.. MS is jus doing what everyone else does. They have more money, so they\'re able to buy more respected and visable game developers. *Shrugs*
MS is jus playing catch-up. Sega has like 12 different development houses working for them.. Sony has like 10 or more. Nintnedo seems to be the only one really missing out on the plethora of first party developers... and yet even there they have some serious talent backing them up such as Factor 5.
As long as MS buying up 3rd parties doesn\'t become a weekly occurance.. I could care less really.
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Originally posted by SonyFan
???? :eek: Dude.. they were a PC developer and I think they dabbled in consoles
Dood, that was my point. Psygnosis had few prior ties to consoles, Nintendo owns 49% of Rare. See the difference? The :rolleyes: to my question was implied. My mistake for not using enough smilies. I guess :rolleyes:
Originally posted by SonyFan
I agree with most of the people here.. MS is jus doing what everyone else does.
Have you taken a poll? I\'d be curious to see how many here believe Sony, Sega, or Nintendo would try to crush their competitors, large and small, by any means available given enough cash.
Originally posted by SonyFan
As long as MS buying up 3rd parties doesn\'t become a weekly occurance.. I could care less really.
Oh, so you\'ll complain when it does become a weekly occurance? Me thinks by then it\'ll be too late.
Not that complaining about it now will do much good :crap:
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Sony didn\'t directly buy up other developers in this exact same way, but they did use their money to make a large impact in the market. Microsoft is doing that as well, just with a more well know developer (probably because they have more money to do this same thing with). I just think of it as the same type of thing on a slightly larger scale.
But hey, I don\'t blame em at all. It\'s not like Nintendo had to sell, and Nintendo had a chance to buy Rare in the past. I just hope this doesn\'t hurt them too badly.
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Have you taken a poll? I\'d be curious to see how many here believe Sony, Sega, or Nintendo would try to crush their competitors, large and small, by any means available given enough cash. - Heretic
Post a poll, and I\'ll bet that not too many people are concerned about it. Of course, it\'ll be fairly one sided since this forum attracts (or tries to attract) more open-minded and understanding gamers rather than people who are afraid of the MS boogey-man.
Nintnedo - Contracted 3rd parties into only producing games for the NES in the 8 bit days. That\'s not a dirty trick intended to crush the opposition at any cost?
Sega - Are known as being viciously and openly critical of their competition.. never stoping to publicly ridicule or tear down on their competition while pumping up their own product. Granted, while this isn\'t necessarily a "Dirty" tactic.. Sega has always taken it way past the mark of good natured buisness tactics.. usually for humorous effect. Remember all those ads in the early 90\'s basically stating that anyone owning a GB had an IQ about that of their dog and probly drank from the toilet? Remember those Ads they placed thumbing their nose at Sony about their shortages while blowing the situation clear out of proportion? Remember the guy in the big Sonic costume going out to the putting greens and harassing the SCEE execs?
Sony has been known to not only buy up 3rd parties in massive quantities (like MS is doing), but have pulled tactics like blackmailing retailers into not stocking Sega and MS ads or products or else they would halt shipments of PS2s to those stores?
This is buisness man.. get over it. You act as if MS is on the verge of taking over.. but look around.. they\'re jus barely hanging on here. Sales in Europe and Japan are beyond pathetic.. hell the PSX outsells them 9/10ths of the time. Sales in America are ok, but still not near enough to support them. Not to mention they\'re in increadibly hot water with Nvidia over their GPU which could potentially put a halt to Xbox production unless it\'s resolved. Is Microsoft even making a profit are they still hemmoraging cash from their latest pricecuts, which they had to impliment because Xboxs jus weren\'t selling.
Christ dude, I don\'t wanna see MS dominate the console market either.. but I don\'t wanna see Sony dominate it any more. MS CANNOT Monopolize the gaming market like they did the PC market. New systems come out at a rate of every 5 years, and since there isn\'t a single OS out there which all game software must be compatable with.. MS\'s maybe future stranglehold will only last as long as developers are willing to let it. No different than how Nintnedo\'s stranglehold was broken.. and how Sony\'s is starting to slip.
Gimmie a break man.. ugh..
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If it weren\'t for that whole competitions driving down prices while driving up quality thing, I\'d love to see someone monopolize the industry. Just one console to buy, then you could play all the games. That would be great.
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Originally posted by SonyFan
This is buisness man.. get over it
Get over what? Xbox isn\'t going to do much more this gen other than f with developers? Consider it done.
Or do you mean get over the choke hold MS has and uses freely with its OS monopoly? No, I don\'t believe I will get over that completely until the iron grip no longer exists. So sue me :clown:
Originally posted by SonyFan
Gimmie a break man..
After your last post, that should be my line :sleepy:
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You don\'t see even a slight distinction between the PC market and the Console market? You can\'t differenciate between OS and Bios? The two are compeltely different, aside from both using computing devices to play software. That\'s pretty much the only similarity. Their buisness models are much much different.
I mean, wtf dude.. the only monopoly there is in the videogame market is Nintnedo\'s GBA. Yet, point me to any post of yours where you\'ve denounced Nintnedo and shown strong bias against them BECAUSE of their handheld monopoly. Is that any less a raping of the consumer? Why is MS\'s OS monopoly a reason to hate the Xbox, yet the GB/GBA isn\'t a reason to lothe Nintnedo?
And please.. point me to ONE other industry that MS has bought it\'s way into where they\'ve monopolized the market. UltimateTV? Nope. Computer hardware? Nope. Consoles? (MSX) Nope. Online Services? Nope. Television? Nope.
Dude, I ain\'t a MS hugger or nothing.. and I\'m quickly getting fed up with all of Window\'s BS... but that\'s no reason to hate the Xbox which is a completely different platform, in a compeltely different buisness market, with a compeltely different purpose, and a completely different set of circumstances.
:rolleyes:
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Video consoles and PCs are directly related. No way around it. Want some schooling on how closely they are tied? Look for an xbox thread I started around Nov. if you are really intersted.
Big ass wolf at the door and you think I should care just as much about a little weasel like Nintendo? Whatever :rolleyes:
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The Saturn went belly up in the US shortly after TR2 was released. TRLR was released for DC. Inky deals I\'ve never read aside, TR being released on PC as well falls short of exclusive. If you want to talk about inked exclusive deals try HALO
Then you haven\'t been keeping up. Most of us here more than likely know this. TRLR was released April of 2000, after the deal expired.
And seeing as how the console and PC market don\'t compete, you can still call it an exclusive.
Psygnosis, that was which- a Sega or Nintendo first/second party? Don\'t even mention ND, they had a long standing close relationship with Sony before recently hitching up.
besides, I don\'t remember Psygnosis developing for any other consoles other than PSX at the time.
Nope, they were third party. Versions of WipEout were released on the Saturn and N64.
Sony entered the console market and filled a huge void. MS is attempting to force it\'s way in.
There is no other way MS could survive. Earning developers is just about the dumbest thing I\'ve heard...well, at least in today\'s market. It\'s all cut throat...nice guys finish last.
Sony didn\'t directly buy up other developers in this exact same way, but they did use their money to make a large impact in the market. Microsoft is doing that as well, just with a more well know developer (probably because they have more money to do this same thing with). I just think of it as the same type of thing on a slightly larger scale.
But hey, I don\'t blame em at all. It\'s not like Nintendo had to sell, and Nintendo had a chance to buy Rare in the past. I just hope this doesn\'t hurt them too badly.
Thank you, shockwaves.
Video consoles and PCs are directly related. No way around it. Want some schooling on how closely they are tied? Look for an xbox thread I started around Nov. if you are really intersted.
Tell that to the rest of the videogame industry. The day I have to upgrade a pc and buy an controller as an accessory instead of using the keyboard is the day I quit gaming.
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if MS buy Square, I\'ll be more than happy to buy the XBox.
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SonyFan...
Your name sure is ironic in this thread...
:p
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Ginko,
Why are you going on about a deal for TR being exclusive when the Saturn was dead as a doornail either way? Sony didn\'t cut Sega\'s throat, it was suicide. Okay, let\'s say making titles exclusive is the same as buying companies outright. You win. Happy? Past that it seems I might as well pick a language at random, send my posts through babelfish and back, and be as well understood.
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Originally posted by Heretic
Ginko,
Why are you going on about a deal for TR being exclusive when the Saturn was dead as a doornail either way? Sony didn\'t cut Sega\'s throat, it was suicide.
Actually, it wasn\'t until a year later or so that the Saturn was declared dead. I should know...I bought mine and Tomb Raider was my second game. It wasn\'t until my 5th or 6th that Sega had dropped it.
I\'ll also assume you didn\'t know that Tomb Raider was set for a N64 version...until the contract came up.
Tomb Raider was a hot property back then that sold consoles. Sony made sure it was their console.
Okay, let\'s say making titles exclusive is the same as buying companies outright.
I know where you\'re coming from, but I just don\'t see how you can\'t comprehend that MS is doing exactly what Sony did so many years ago. They are securing games/developers and ultimately a place in the market.
Question. You just entered the videogame market with a new console...you\'re doing okay, but you could do better with a few key franchises. OMG, look what just appeared. A well known developer that\'s going to the highest bidder...and you have a mountain of cash.
What would you do?
Sit back and hope that you\'ve "earned" their respect while the bidders are throwing up 9 figure digits?
MS made a good move, there\'s no other way to look at it.
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SEGA=Stupid Egoistic Gaming Anarchy
Hee-hee.
It\'s really difficult to imagine the company who starts the 3D revolution in the arcade with Virtua Fighter, Virtua Racing etc opts
for a 2D machine(Saturn) when they can see where the market is going.
SONY didn\'t kill SEGA. If SONY didn\'t exist, Nintendo would have dominate with the N64.
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Originally posted by Paul
SEGA=Stupid Egoistic Gaming Anarchy
Hee-hee.
It\'s really difficult to imagine the company who starts the 3D revolution in the arcade with Virtua Fighter, Virtua Racing etc opts
for a 2D machine(Saturn) when they can see where the market is going.
SONY didn\'t kill SEGA. If SONY didn\'t exist, Nintendo would have dominate with the N64.
Bah, that\'s not where I intended this thread to go. Heretic questioned the contract of an exlusive TR, I answered.
As I said, Tomb Raider sold consoles at that time. Sony made sure it was only on their console. (Read, PC doesn\'t count)
It\'s the same tactic. Sony was aggressive enough to secure that series, and just recently they secured the GTA series.
MS did an extremely similar move but on a much larger scale and secured every game coming out of Rare. When oppurtunity knocks, answer. I guess being MS it\'s a hateful and evil answer though:rolleyes:
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Heretic, I ain\'t searching through hundreds of threads from over a year ago. How about YOU post quotes or a link to that thread. Since you wrote it, I would assume you know which thread it\'s in or at the very least could still recall the points you brought up if you feel strongly about them.
Consoles and PC\'s are different. Period, aside from the fact that they both use a computing device to process software. There is no industry standard for videogames.. there is no big push to make everything compatable to one system so that buisnesses can communicate and share information quickly and efficently. Consoles are CLOSED boxes.. which means hardware must be updated only through the purchase of a new console. It\'s not like videogame developers have to worry about the lowest common denomenator and develop for people with outdated OS\'s and hardware.
In computers, there are a number of different form factors. Because of it\'s ease of use and push by IBM, buisnesses latched on to the PC market. A tie strenthened because no-one owns the copyright to the PC.. it\'s an open platform for which anyone can make their own PC and market it. That competition drove down prices which companies loved.. however it created a new problem. Since there is no one "PC" copyright owner.. that means anyone can make an OS. However, the OS for one PC must be compatable with the OS for another PC if you want them to communicate and share files. This is absolutely VITAL to buisnesses. IBM\'s OS/2 was fairly popular for awhile, but through ease of use and agressive marketing, MS pulled out ahead of everyone else. Once MS was a leader, everyone who wanted to be compatable had to have a PC running a MS OS. The home PC market was still in it\'s infancy at the time, but eventually MS took over there as well because it allowed office workers to bring their work home.. not to mention it was still the most user-friendly and versitile OS for the common user. It wasn\'t until the mid-early 90\'s that MS secured contracts with most major PC manufacturers to include MS OS\'s in with new computers. This is what started MS\'s monopoly.
Where is that circumstance in consoles? Where is the huge push to make all software compatable to one form factor? Where is the push to make them all compatable with each other? Where are the complicated OS\'s which drive the computer illiterate to seek out the most user friendly software so that they can play their games? The console industry basically starts fresh every 5 years.. the only thing carrying over is exclusive titles under contract and consumer mindshare. Consumer Mindshare - This is what got the PS2 where it is now. Otherwise.. gamers would have chosen the Dreamcast, a console with compairable/better graphics and a ton of games already. Most, were basing the PS2 off of the success of the PSX.. a console that rose to success mainly because of a lack of competition and the same tactics MS is now using.
You don\'t have that lack of competition this time around... but the PS2\'s success is already set because of it\'s huge backlog of software to choose from. The other two.. are growing in userbases at a much slower pace, yet still much stronger than the last generation\'s consoles did. If Ninentdo and MS produce good consoles and keep developer friendly relations, we\'ll see a much - MUCH different scene come time for the next generation consoles.
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Originally posted by SonyFan
Heretic, I ain\'t searching through hundreds of threads from over a year ago. How about YOU post quotes or a link to that thread.
The first and only thread started by Heretic (http://www.psx2central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16676)
Originally posted by SonyFan
Consumer Mindshare - This is what got the PS2 where it is now. Otherwise.. gamers would have chosen the Dreamcast, a console with compairable/better graphics and a ton of games already.
Consumer Mindshare- AKA respect, Sega had none left for their hardware after the Saturn. You guys really need to get this straight, DC was as good as dead at launch because of Sega\'s past, not Sony\'s tampering.
Sony, Sega, BigN ammo = conventional weapons
MS ammo = tactical nukes
Sony snatches a TR bobble from Big N while they\'re fumbling with the 64.
MS pacman bites Rare tattoo off\'a N\'s ass and pays them to limp away
(imo, Nintendo and the Rare brothers may end up walking away with the best end of that deal)
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And you still blame them?
It was easy for Sony to just secure a few games and that was the end of the deal. They didn\'t need to do anymore because the comptetion...well, there was no competition.
Today is an entirely different story.
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Who said anything about blame? I blame MS no more than I would blame a bull in a China shop
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Heretic, your suspicions for the real reason Microsoft entered the hardware market do hold some merit. I\'ve thought the same thing, although I suspect it has more to do with VRML and MS\'s stranglehold on the internet. The web is going to undergo a massive change from 2D "pages" to full 3D content in the next few years when Broadband becomes much more prolific. Sony was poised to take full advantage of this with the PS2, and it shouldn\'t come as a surprise to many that Sony was one of the pioneers of this technology with their Community Place VRML browser. This is the main reason why the PS2 was broadband only when it was first released, then later modified for 56k users since BB isn\'t nearly at the userbase Sony needs. This also explains why the Xbox is Broadband only despite the fact that it\'s cutting off millions of potential gamers from online play. There\'s already been alotta buzz going around about Xbox\'s own "Revolutionary" VRML programs which will be comming out soon after Xbox Live Launches.
You still didn\'t explain, however, how the Xbox can "save" the PC gaming industry for MS. It\'ll just shift focus to the Xbox if MS is successful.. all the while leaving their OS division with their ass hanging in the wind. Moreover tho.. look at the changes that have been going in to the various MS OS\'s. Gaming isn\'t a big reason for the changes. It\'s mainly networking, better compatibilty with new hardware, bug fixes, security, ect. If anything, why would MS see the PS2 as direct competition to their OS market when Free OS\'s like Linux are becoming more compatable with MS products and vastly more user friendly with each new version... not to mention being free.
Also, no-where in that artical you wrote did you explain how MS\'s dominance over the OS Market could help them gain dominance over the Console market. As I explained, since hardware updates and is vastly changed from generation to generation.. there is no industry standard to follow like there is in the OS market. It\'s not like people are going to be buying the Xbox to have compatibility with old programs. Everyone starts fresh at the beginning of each new generation. Except for as I said, Mindshare.
Even that\'s not too much of a problem tho. In the 8Bit days.. Nintnedo was THE company to go to if you wanted the best games available. However that didn\'t stop the Genesis from raging in taking a large chunck of the gaming market, even beating the SNES by just a hair (debatable) in the 16bit generation. Nor did it stop the PSX from taking over durring the 32 bit days despite their mindshare of ZILCH compaired to Sega & Nintnedo. And of course, the Dreamcast.. which.. as much as some people would like to claim, was actually well on it\'s way to being a success had Sega not needed to drop it due to the financial burden. Granted, it probably would never have been nearly as big as the PS2 is.. but compaired to Xbox and NGC it did fairly well. For a console that followed the 32x, SegaCD, and the Saturn, it\'s sales were shocking. It broke nearly all industry records for a launch at it\'s time.. and sold more units in it\'s first year than the Saturn did in it\'s entire lifespan. In jus two short years, the DC\'s userbase was tallied at around 10 million units worldwide.. 1/3rd of the N64\'s total userbase for it\'s 5 year span. While that\'s not particularly astounding compaired to the PS2 which has sold 30 million units in 2 years.. for a console that followed such failures as it did.. that is a very impressive number. I have no doubt in my mind that the DC could have easily broken 30 million units worldwide by the end of it\'s life had Sega not been in such financial trouble and needed to ditch from the market.
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SonyFan the reason I didn\'t explain how the Xbox can "save" the PC gaming industry for MS is because I don\'t believe it can. MS sees the handwriting on the wall, games will no longer be the incentive it was for consumers upgrading their PCs, xbox has been/is a tool for postponing the inevitable. I did give some detail of how but maybe you should ask me about it there. I think you\'ll find the answers to a few other questions you ask here have already been spoken to. Since the thread is still alive, digging into them any more would be better done there.
Originally posted by SonyFan
Everyone starts fresh at the beginning of each new generation. Except for as I said, Mindshare.
...Nor did it stop the PSX from taking over durring the 32 bit days despite their mindshare of ZILCH compaired to Sega & Nintnedo.
Your ignoring the mindshare Sony owned as a giant in the electronics hardware industry and backing up the rep with a solid console that has new games being released eight years later.
Originally posted by SonyFan
And of course, the Dreamcast..
...It broke nearly all industry records for a launch at it\'s time.. and sold more units in it\'s first year than the Saturn did in it\'s entire lifespan. In jus two short years, the DC\'s userbase was tallied at around 10 million units worldwide..
What\'s not being taken into account in the quote above is the explosive mainstream growth in gaming that took place since the release of Saturn.
Originally posted by SonyFan
1/3rd of the N64\'s total userbase for it\'s 5 year span. While that\'s not particularly astounding compaired to the PS2 which has sold 30 million units in 2 years.. for a console that followed such failures as it did.. that is a very impressive number. I have no doubt in my mind that the DC could have easily broken 30 million units worldwide by the end of it\'s life had Sega not been in such financial trouble and needed to ditch from the market.
Dude, I have a ton of doubt about DC ever reaching 15 mil. A respectable enough base to support if they\'d had the dough but even so, costly when there\'s much more money to be made as a third party.
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I think you\'ll find the answers to a few other questions you ask here have already been spoken to. Since the thread is still alive, digging into them any more would be better done there. - Heretic
Since this is the thread where the question was raised, this is the perfect spot to discuss it. The thread in question was never meant to be raised or further the discussion in, only to serve as a point of reference for you. No use having two threads open debating the same thing.
Your ignoring the mindshare Sony owned as a giant in the electronics hardware industry and backing up the rep with a solid console that has new games being released eight years later. - Heretic
CD players and Videogame consoles are two totally different mediums. Sony\'s mindshare going into the 32bit generation was extremely minimal. The PSX\'s sales didn\'t even boom until it\'s second year when they secured enough 3rd parties to bring a ton of exclusive high profile titles to their system.. not to mention a streight assload of sub-par and me-too games.
What\'s not being taken into account in the quote above is the explosive mainstream growth in gaming that took place since the release of Saturn. - Heretic
Right, but since those who bought into gaming durring the 32bit generation were raised on Playstation.. not Sega. According to you, Sega had no mindshare going into the 128 bit gen.. or actually.. they had even worse. A bad rep.
Dude, I have a ton of doubt about DC ever reaching 15 mil. A respectable enough base to support if they\'d had the dough but even so, costly when there\'s much more money to be made as a third party.- Heretic
I don\'t. They had nearly that worldwide when the DC was discontinued.. and that was only 2 years. I think they easily could have broken 30 million by the end of it\'s lifecycle, expecially with as competetively priced as it was. The DC was doing better in it\'s day than the Xbox is doing now... even with all of the developers MS has added and having the strongest hardware. I can\'t believe you\'re still worried about them "Taking over". Shyt, I\'m half worried that they\'re gonna drop out and leave only Sony to dominate this generation.
And yet again.. going back to mindshare. MS\'s name is everywhere.. If you own a PC (70% of American households), then you know MS\'s name. Considering the amount of idiots out there too (See: AOL users) most of them are happy and think Windows is great. Yet MS still can\'t do as well as a console that\'s been preceded by nourmerous failures and a history of dropping out of the market?
That\'s pitiful. That wolf at the door looks more like a lamb.. and considering how much harder it is to monopolize the gaming market than it is to monopolize the PC OS market.. I can\'t see them ever being a real "Threat". What "Threat" anyhow.. how is a MS monopoly any worse than a Sony monopoly (which they almost had last gen BTW)? OS market has nothing to do with it..
a monopoly is bad for the market - PERIOD... no matter who holds it. I don\'t see one good reason why you should be discriminating against the Xbox, just because of what Microsoft has done in a totally different field.
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My two cents: The very fact that some of you have your panties in a bunch because Microsoft may of bought Rare is amusing. Let\'s face it, the only reason anyone is saying anything is because of who it is, it\'s Microsoft so now everyone has to scream about "strong arm tactics" and a MS trying to bully their way into the industry. Give me a break guys, it\'s business as usual and if you\'re just now catching onto the fact that companies buy developers, than you have been living in a cave. Did anyone scream about Nintendo and Retro Studio\'s? Sony and Naughty Dog? The list goes on and on, but soon as Microsoft buys someone, it becomes headline news and the message boards get plenty of posts with the anti-MS fear messages. It\'s sad, in my opinion.
It was a smart move for Microsoft and I tip my hat to \'em. Nintendo was simply stupid for not goin\' ahead and buying them out. And if Sony would of tried to buy Rare and got the deal, I\'m positive a lot of you would be screaming with joy and bragging on how smart of a purchase it was for Sony.
Plain and simple. I\'ve discovered that ninety percent of Anti-MS posts lack any substance and boil down to one thing. People disliking the company for their so called apperance in the PC industry - even though I would imagine a good 60 percent of those people don\'t even know what MS done in the PC industry. It\'s just "hip" to hate MS now\'a\'days.
God, I hate when people make me defend MS....
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It\'s not a strong-arm thing, since Nintendo didn\'t want Rare.
Still, Nintendo getting Retro and Sony getting Naughty Dog = nothing compared to Rare going to MS.
Retro was bought for $1M with no games.. Naughty Dog had, what.. a couple of mediocre 16-bit games out?
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totally going with LIC on this one
while it may not be a very laid back action and all MS is doing nothing out of the odinary compared to any company - just like nintendo bought all the shares with rare for the most part someone else can buy them from nintendo and so on with MS if they want to sale eventually - its not like sony didnt do the same with Sqauresoft and all while they may not care if they make other console games "upfront at least" they still really havent done anything because of most likely some background understanding and all that they have in the shadows and all
anyway its just business tatics while they may be more agressive in the sense that they have done this before and more often its not like they are the only ones doing it
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And yet again.. going back to mindshare. MS\'s name is everywhere.. If you own a PC (70% of American households), then you know MS\'s name. Considering the amount of idiots out there too (See: AOL users) most of them are happy and think Windows is great. Yet MS still can\'t do as well as a console that\'s been preceded by nourmerous failures and a history of dropping out of the market? - SonyFan
talking about mindshare, I think it\'s clear that Microsoft has more going against them as going for them, as presented in this very forum here.
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God, if there\'s no fricken competition, we\'ll all be spending like $1000 on consoles, and $100 for games. Trust me, for the consumer, competition is a good thing.
Think of it like this, if Apple never entered the computer industry, our computers would be twice as expensive, competition is a good thing, end of story.
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Originally posted by seven
talking about mindshare, I think it\'s clear that Microsoft has more going against them as going for them, as presented in this very forum here.
meh, did you forget what forum/site your at?;)
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Eh? Billy? Apple started the home computer "revolution", it was IBM and others who entered the industry. Not to mention, Apple does still typically charge an arm and leg compared to its competetion.
Bad example.
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True, but it is a legit reason for affordable PCs. I do know that IBM started it, but, Apple is the reason for PC price drops.
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thehurricane
then why are macs more expensive even they are designed for the idiots of computer consumers?
competition is NOT a good thing when it thins out and dilutes the market
.ie cheap alternatives
look what wal mart is doing to the discount retail realm
phar-mor = gone
ames = gone
kmart = bankrupt
how long will it be before target joins them, and all were left with is wal-mart? so then they can rape us with price gouging. its standard oil all over again
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tssk, it\'s such a sad thing too when think how MS stole Mac\'s OS. If Steve Jobs had won the court case we would have no such thing as Windows. In turn, we\'d have far more pricey PCs...
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thats pure speculation
thomas edison invented and patented the light bulb by himself but they can be bought for pennies from hundreds of companies
seeking for domination thru draconian tactics is what sets micro$oft apart
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Originally posted by Ginko
meh, did you forget what forum/site your at?;)
nope, but you can\'t deny there\'s more mindshare going against Microsoft then you see going for them. I\'ve seen many people laugh at Xbox for it being a stripped down PC and nothing more...
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Originally posted by seven
nope, but you can\'t deny there\'s more mindshare going against Microsoft then you see going for them. I\'ve seen many people laugh at Xbox for it being a stripped down PC and nothing more...
Really? This is the only forum I see that happening still...everyone else has finally gotten over it.
I don\'t see it brought up on TXB, XenGen, Gamerweb...maybe I\'ve just learned to tune it out as that point is completely irrelevant to any conversation you can have about Xbox...
/shrugs shoulders
In the end, MS can overcome the bad PR. Sony proved that...faulty hardware, developers bitching, and graphics below somes expectations. It\'s the games that matter.
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lol, imagine the serfs at TXB in the m$ mindshare
m$ will never overcome the bad PR, they just have enough money and moronic customers not to care
yer right, it is the games that matter, which explains the xbox\'s piss poor [©ooseven 2002] sales
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Originally posted by mm
lol, imagine the serfs at TXB in the m$ mindshare
m$ will never overcome the bad PR, they just have enough money and moronic customers not to care
Sony was able to do it...why not MS?
I\'m not a moron...throw me several good games and I\'ll forget all about it. There\'s no reason to get caught up in the industry, it\'s not our job. I\'m simply playing games...how \'bout you?
yer right, it is the games that matter, which explains the xbox\'s piss poor [©ooseven 2002] sales
exactly, look how long it took before PSX took off...it had a few gems in it\'s early release but not a wide selection.
The only thing PS2 was selling so well off of it\'s first year was it\'s name. There was nothing worth buying or getting excited over for the first year.
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i smell moot points
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Go ahead and point them out mm...it\'s not like there\'s anything else going on in here.
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nah, we all know why things the way they are in the console realm
i just dont "simply play games" tho
my time is too precious to waste on let down titles (not just the xbox variety, although it does possess the majority of them)
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i just dont "simply play games" tho
Maybe I should have elaborated on this...what I meant is, why should you care what bad PR MS is getting? If a good game comes along, are you going to hold a grudge against it with that PR in mind?
my time is too precious to waste on let down titles (not just the xbox variety, although it does possess the majority of them)
As of lately, I couldn\'t come out with a clear cut winner on let down titles...although I will say it doesn\'t encompass GC.
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it doesnt matter to me what PR m$ gets
they are a piece of shit company that will reap someday what they\'ve been sowing the last 20 years
but thats an entirely different tangent
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but thats an entirely different tangent
One that doesn\'t matter here...gotcha.:)
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exactly
no use telling people about the light when theyre comfortable in the dark
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Ah mm, always good for a poignant laugh at the heart of an issue
Better a late response from me than never? Eh, what do I care, I\'d rather not offer a cold shoulder when I don\'t have to.
Originally posted by SonyFan
Sony\'s mindshare going into the 32bit generation was extremely minimal. The PSX\'s sales didn\'t even boom until it\'s second year when they secured enough 3rd parties to bring a ton of exclusive high profile titles to their system.. not to mention a streight assload of sub-par and me-too games.
this next bit may help unravel the console/ PC knot that seems to be so sticky
you discount a healthy percentage of ‘mindshare\' burned out on console gaming since Atari\'s hayday, who in the meantime had become PC gamers, and started migrating back to video consoles during the 32bit era. Screw the Mario/Sonic mindshare, the name Sony looked great next to stacks of dead or dying consoles and addons. As does a wall of considerably less expensive games. Sure there\'s plenty of crap among the gems like any other system but cherrry picking through a heap o titles can be easy and fun, in case you don\'t know.
Originally posted by SonyFan
Right, but since those who bought into gaming durring the 32bit generation were raised on Playstation.. not Sega. According to you, Sega had no mindshare going into the 128 bit gen.. or actually.. they had even worse. A bad rep.
I don\'t. They had nearly that worldwide when the DC was discontinued.. and that was only 2 years. I think they easily could have broken 30 million by the end of it\'s lifecycle, expecially with as competetively priced as it was. The DC was doing better in it\'s day than the Xbox is doing now... even with all of the developers MS has added and having the strongest hardware. I can\'t believe you\'re still worried about them "Taking over". Shyt, I\'m half worried that they\'re gonna drop out and leave only Sony to dominate this generation.
woulda coulda shoulda, the cat was outta the bag when DC got outsold by PSX its second xmas season. Sega got over it, why can\'t you?
Originally posted by SonyFan
And yet again.. going back to mindshare. MS\'s name is everywhere.. If you own a PC (70% of American households), then you know MS\'s name. Considering the amount of idiots out there too (See: AOL users) most of them are happy and think Windows is great. Yet MS still can\'t do as well as a console that\'s been preceded by nourmerous failures and a history of dropping out of the market?
As has been pointed out, we got what you might call a \'negative mindshare thang\' going on also. It was enough to seal DC\'s doom and MS has it going on big time. And I believe it\'s a lot more than either xbox fans or MS would want to admit.
me shrugs/ we shall see
Originally posted by SonyFan
That\'s pitiful. That wolf at the door looks more like a lamb.. and considering how much harder it is to monopolize the gaming market than it is to monopolize the PC OS market.. I can\'t see them ever being a real "Threat". What "Threat" anyhow.. how is a MS monopoly any worse than a Sony monopoly (which they almost had last gen BTW)? OS market has nothing to do with it..
a monopoly is bad for the market - PERIOD... no matter who holds it. I don\'t see one good reason why you should be discriminating against the Xbox, just because of what Microsoft has done in a totally different field.
I\'ll repeat, I\'m not worried about MS taking over the gaming console market.
to expand on my earlier statement in this thread; the MS wolf is at the door to the next phase the PC industry is about to enter, howling to lead the pack once again. My observations (http://www.psx2central.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=16676) point to xbox as one (now feeble) means to that end and it need never make a nickle on its own to be considered a success by MS.
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you discount a healthy percentage of ‘mindshare\' burned out on console gaming since Atari\'s hayday, who in the meantime had become PC gamers, and started migrating back to video consoles during the 32bit era. Screw the Mario/Sonic mindshare, the name Sony looked great next to stacks of dead or dying consoles and addons. As does a wall of considerably less expensive games. Sure there\'s plenty of crap among the gems like any other system but cherrry picking through a heap o titles can be easy and fun, in case you don\'t know. - Heretic
A healthy percentage? Are you sure about that? The home PC market was nothing to be overly excited about in the mid 80\'s to mid 90\'s. With high component costs, difficult to understand OS\'s (DOS & Win 3.1), and a lack of impressive content.. there weren\'t a whole lot of people playing PC games back then. Nowhere NEAR the amount find today.. and any PC gamers from those days who would switch to PSX later would only take up a very VERY small fraction of a slice. It wasn\'t until PC components came down in price drastically, and really the Internet gaining a large proliferation that the PC market really started to boom... around 1995, the same time the PSX launched. Most of todays PC gamers only started playing PC games from that time on.. because the vast majority of people couldn\'t afford nor had a reason to get a PC. The theory sounds nice.. but practically it doesn\'t hold any water. Most gamers who were dissallusioned after the Atari were casuals who jus gave up on gaming altogether. A small percentage stuck with it and were largely labeled as "Geeks" because they were either playing with kids toys or fancy calculators.
woulda coulda shoulda, the cat was outta the bag when DC got outsold by PSX its second xmas season. Sega got over it, why can\'t you? - Heretic
The point is, if the DC with a heavily negetive slant of public opinion can come back after a dismal failure like the Saturn and become a success (which it was on it\'s way to become had Sega not ran out of money and investor patience).. then it\'s not to hard for someone with almost no mindshare to come into the market and make a huge dent provided they secure some great games and have good quality hardware. Sega did it in the 8 bit days, Sony did it in the 32 bit days.. and someone else will surely do it again. Regardless of weither it\'s MS, Sony, Nintendo, or whoever who\'s controlling most of the gaming market.
As has been pointed out, we got what you might call a \'negative mindshare thang\' going on also. It was enough to seal DC\'s doom - Heretic
Actually, I believe it had a lot more to do with a lack of advertising and a lack of "High profile" titles. Yeah, the DC was home to some of the best games of this generation.. but they were niche titles like Nintendo\'s. There were no Final Fantasy\'s, no MGS2\'s, no Silent Hills or Medal of Honors. They had a few like Quake III arena, RE:CV, and Tomb Raider.. but those weren\'t quite enough. Not to mention they didn\'t have a plethora of Sub-Par games jus cramming the shelves giving casual gamers a variety to choose from.
I\'ll repeat, I\'m not worried about MS taking over the gaming console market. to expand on my earlier statement in this thread; the MS wolf is at the door to the next phase the PC industry is about to enter, howling to lead the pack once again. My observations point to xbox as one (now feeble) means to that end and it need never make a nickle on its own to be considered a success by MS. - Heretic
I don\'t see where you\'re getting the idea that advancements in gaming technology demand better and more expansive OS\'s. DirectX drivers are easily upgradable through free patches, and any drivers you may need come with the hardware. The OS bread & butter has always been with file sharing, networking, security, programming, and file management. These are spur the new release of an OS. For example, in the next MS OS that comes out there will be minimal gaming extras added in. The latest version of DirectX and maybe some more generic game controller drivers. That\'s about it... however it\'s biggest change will be in how it handles security. I\'m sure you remember that fuss everyone\'s been making about how MS will take control of your computer and configure everything remotely so that it can cut down on pirating and user errors?
Besides, the whole theory falls apart when you see the reality of what\'s happening. The Xbox is getting sloppy ports of PC games, rather than the other way around. Console game makers (unless they\'re already multiplatform) haven\'t expressed any particular interest in porting their games to the PC either. So where\'s that incentive gone? How is that helping the PC market?
As for consoles running home software in lue of a PC.. it\'ll never happen. PC\'s will always be the platform of choice mainly because of their open hardware and expandability which allowes for them to be upgraded and hence compatable with the latest tools, programs, and gadgets out there. With a console, you\'re always stuck at that one level of technology you were at when it launched.. until the next one comes out. The only thing consoles might add in the comming years is some of the most very basic PC functions.. like Internet capabilities, IM\'s, IRC chat, MP3 playing, some limited word processing, and maybe some very basic photo snapshot capturing and editing. That\'s pretty much it.
The PS2/PS3 poses no big threat to the PC OS market.
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Originally posted by SonyFan
I don\'t see where you\'re getting the idea that advancements in gaming technology demand better and more expansive OS\'s.
Exactly. You won\'t even recognize a dead DC, how are you suppose to come to grips with an idea you don\'t like sound of ever possibly happening in the future? I might add, you seem to be willing to go to extreme lengths to prove how much you can\'t see.
If what I see is correct, how is it such a bad thing for xbox or MS?
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Originally posted by Ginko
I\'ll answer this one with a quote from Altered:
Um......, Sony did not buy Eidos Interactive.
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No one said they did. They just secured the exclusive rights to a game made by Eidos for a period of time.
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SonyFan,
What will be the reason for upgrading to WinXP, Y, Z and Z.5 over the next several years? The industry is coming slowly to a halt and a change will come sooner or later. And even if next generation consoles will only be able to check emails, surf the internet, very basic wordprocessing - for what do most people use a computer anyway? I think an entertainment system on a good solid HDTV will make it all the more attractive - especially considering that there are more TVs around than PCs. While you\'re at it, keep the price in mind aswell...
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But seven, there\'s far less HDTV\'s out there than PC\'s.. and that isn\'t going to change for quite some time. That lower resolution and blurryness is just ONE of reasons why using even basic PC functions on a standard TV will never catch on. How are you supposed to do 3D art and photo editing when you can\'t even get the detail you need for even print quality because you\'re TV screen simply can\'t display the picture with the right color depth and resolution. Have you ever tried surfing the internet from your TV? Good god.. it\'s horrendous. A nice crutch for those who don\'t have any other means of access, but worthless to anyone who even has a low end PC.
MS\'s monopoly over the OS market secures this as well, since who is going to want to go from developing a single product for a single machine.. to devloping a plethora of versions for all the different console hardware out there.. maximising userbase? (Hell it\'s like pulling teeth getting developers to make programs for other PC OS\'s like Apple or Linux.) Expecially when they\'re programs are limited by outdated hardware. Want to make your software take advantage of the latest networking cable comming standard on new devices? Too bad.. the hardware doesn\'t support it. Not to mention, how are you going to use programs which DEMAND high system specs on a machine which has low system specs in certain key areas because it\'s designed as a gaming console? Going back to photo editing for example.. 32-64mb of Ram is pitifully low for even one medium quality .BMP scan. Then try to factor in the Ram that\'s eaten up by the proprietary OS.. all the background apps running and multitasking going on.. the limited amount of system resources are going to get eaten up VERY quickly. Now whereas in a PC you can simply upgrade and expand your hardware.. you\'re phucked on a console because you can\'t upgrade.
PC\'s are NOT in danger of being replaced by Videogame consoles. I can\'t believe some of you are actually entertaining that thought. While PC\'s and Console will take on certain characteristics of each other in the comming years, neither will be able to do the other\'s job nearly as well. Consoles jus don\'t have the open hardware and expandability needed to accomodate the newest programs running in tandem with each other and an OS. PC\'s just cannot offer the specified hardware needed to make games fully compatable/crash & bug proof or offer the necessarry hardware needed at reasonable prices.
As for what reason there will be to upgrade OS\'s in the comming years? New innovations in software - such as VRML, increased user friendliness, increased compatilibity, better emulation of various hardware, compatilibity with new innovations in hardware such as much much higher density HDD\'s that will be comming out before to long, increased security.. ect. As much as it may not seem like it now, the PC still has a long way to grow. Videogames are hardly a reason to keep pushing the PC industry.. although that is one area in which it is.
Heretic - Yes, the DC is dead. Nowhere in this thread did I say that it wasn\'t. It was used as an example, and if you cannot distinquish it as that then I see no further point in discussing this since in most likelyhood it\'ll jus end up as a flamewar.
The DC is dead.. however the PC isn\'t. You\'re argument that there is no real reason to upgrade OS\'s anymore has been fought over since Windows98 was released. Yet 4 new OS\'s later.. and the PC industry is still growing and giving new reasons to upgrade (although at a slower pace than before). This is something the Abandonware community has been screaming for years. Why upgrade? Why spend good money on software and hardware to accomodate when all the tools you\'ll ever need are already out.. abandoned.. and free for use? There was an artical on a site I used to visit about this. I wish I still had the link and the ability to post it, but ABware is technically piracy and thus not allowed here. This isn\'t a new issue.. and I\'m willing to bet that 3 generations of hardware down the road people will still be debating it. Why do we need newer hardware and software when we already have what we need? It didn\'t slow down the PC industry then.. and I see no reason why it would in the future either.
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Yeah, but keep in mind, TVs are being bought throughout the world and as prices come down, the HDTV-market will expand greatly. Denying this would be foolish. The difference between a normal TV and a Plasma HDTV are quite big, so there\'s all the more reason to upgrade once the prices come down.
Also, you\'re bringing hardware into this, hardware which is not upgradable. Do you honestly think that Sony will force something up on us that doesn\'t work or seriously limited? While photoediting might be a problem because of RAM, movie editing should be all the better once there\'s a certain amount of RAM on the system. You probably haven\'t heard of this yet, but there\'s some really cool things being developed for PS2 already. Software that lets you connect your videocam to the PS2 and stream over while filming. Further, you can do editing on the fly, adding various effects in realtime to your video your filming - effects that are pretty amazing to say the least. Than you have other software that will let you connect cellphones and just about any other electronic devices. It\'s coming and you can bet that the next console (or more precise word "home entertainment system") from Sony will even make this more attractive than it\'s about to become.
What also needs to be said, is that I don\'t think we\'ll have a fullblown PC in our TV for some time - but it will be close enough for the average consumer to raise their eyebrow and find it cool. Again, I may ask, what does the average consumer do with their PC? Surfing the web, writting emails, some very basic wordprocessing, games here and there and perhaps some photo or videoediting. In the future, you won\'t need an expensive PC for this, nor will you need the newest OS. The reason to upgrade on your PC nowdays is getting smaller by the day and people are already starting to get pissed of having to upgrade their PC in order to run the newer software and for that newer OS. Is it necessary? Hell no and yet so many people are literally forced to upgrade. We\'ve been there with Win95/Win98/ME and soon to be XP. Sales are already suggesting that the market is changing and every Windows OS that has launched in the last few years had sold less than its predecessor. I don\'t think I need to point out how this trend is likely to progress if it\'s not going to change...
Oh and guess what, if people slowly refuse to upgrade every 1 to 2 years, where\'s Microsoft\'s profit heading? Down the drain slowly, that\'s where. A TV/home-entertainment system is likely to be all the more attractive if Sony does it right. Most people already have quite good TV\'s at home and will see little to no reason to invest in a PC that needs to be upgraded (for nothing), is costly, buggy, and a hassle to use.
You did name a few reasons to keep upgrading the OS, although I am convinced that it will take more than a few OS to get to that scenario that you have in mind. The next Microsoft OS is likely to increase just slightly over the previous - progressing quite slow until we get a real good reason to upgrade when a steady version comes out that is actually worth the upgrade. Just look at sales now and over the last few years - I doubt it will go back to what it once was like to upgrade.
Besides, think a few years ahead and imagine what the future will look like. Did you see Demolition Man (or other futuristic movies)? In just about every movie, you have a scenerio presented where there\'s some high definition TV in the living room from which you can control everything: the heating, stereo system, internet, wordprocessing, controlling the fridge, lights - just about anything you can imagine. There\'s no PC - which isn\'t suprising thinking that the TV (in that scenario) advanced so greatly that there is no need for a PC (that a) is costly and b) needs to be upgraded). Of course, that\'s only a scenario, but one that could possibly become reality. Sony\'s making the first steps here and if they do things right, they have the potential to put a serious dent on Microsofts market. Don\'t get me wrong though, I don\'t think anyone of us here is saying that the PC will just die, but simply that the market that is so profitable for Microsoft at the moment could shrink to a state where it just isn\'t as valuable as it once was.
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Well it\'s a good thing MS buys Rare LTD. but I can live without Rare games. Found this info today.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xbox.com%2FNR%2Frdonlyres%2Fegkbye53d5cxrtgpw3typ5f657w6zwftnh7vjbodtjgnskr7kfapxuvnbksckeazjv43k3p2grpajwxsntei5ocnlgh%2Film-rareannounce-0001.jpg&hash=a39fa445347a87e9186a4a93e4d935806ab33907)
Press Release Source: Microsoft Corp.
Microsoft Acquires Video Game Powerhouse Rare Ltd.
Developers of Such Worldwide Hits as \'Donkey Kong 64,\' \'Banjo-Kazooie,\' \'GoldenEye 007\' and \'Perfect Dark\' Bring Their Talents to Xbox
Tuesday September 24, 4:00 pm ET
REDMOND, Wash., Sept. 24 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Microsoft Corp. (Nasdaq: MSFT - News) today announced it has purchased U.K.-based Rare Ltd., one of the world\'s leading video game developers, further demonstrating Microsoft\'s commitment to providing the most innovative interactive experiences available on its Xbox(TM) video game system. Rare has been the mastermind behind some of the most popular video games in history, including such global multimillion sellers as "GoldenEye 007," "Perfect Dark," "Banjo-Kazooie" and "Donkey Kong 64." Under terms of the $375 million cash transaction, Rare will today begin creating exclusive console gaming blockbusters for Xbox.
(Photo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20000822/MSFTLOGO)
In a statement made from Seville, Spain, where the announcement was made to both a live and worldwide webcast audience during the company\'s annual X02 event, Chris Stamper, chairman and technical director of Rare, said, "Our mission at Rare has always been to make the industry\'s best games for the widest possible audience. Teaming with Microsoft gives us the best opportunity to accomplish this goal. Microsoft\'s dedication and commitment to game creators, research and development, and to gaming innovation made them the obvious partner to take Rare into the future."
"We\'ve always insisted on pushing the envelope when it comes to creativity," added Tim Stamper, co-founder and creative director of Rare. "And now we get the chance to create for Xbox."
Rare co-founders Chris and Tim Stamper and their talented team of game developers and designers will continue to work out of Rare in Warwickshire, England. Rare was founded in 1985 as a partnership between the Stamper brothers and Joel Hochberg, now Rare president.
"This partnership significantly broadens our already outstanding portfolio of games that will be available for Xbox. And it also broadens our reach internationally as gamers around the world have demonstrated their fanaticism for what Rare consistently produces," said Robbie Bach, Chief Xbox Officer at Microsoft.
"The last time I was this excited was the first time I picked up a controller and played a game from Rare," said Ed Fries, vice president of Xbox Game Content at Microsoft. "As a gamer, you could hardly wait until Rare\'s next title was announced. You didn\'t know what genre it would be, but it didn\'t matter because you knew you were going to love it."
Rare grabbed the attention of the video game world in 1994 with its creation of "Donkey Kong Country." Selling more than 8 million copies, "DKC" went on to become the biggest-selling 16-bit title in history.
Rare became one of the premiere developers in the world, with sales averaging 1.4 million units per title and nearly 90 million games sold since the company was founded. Five of the top 20 all-time-best-selling N64 titles were developed by Rare, including "GoldenEye 007," the second-best-selling game in North America, with worldwide sales topping 8 million.
With today\'s announcement, Rare becomes the latest member of a star-studded lineup at Microsoft Game Studios, joining such prestigious worldwide developers as Bungie Studios, the masterminds behind the smash hit "Halo(TM)," named Game of the Year by Electronic Gaming Monthly. Rare\'s first creation for Xbox, "Kameo," is expected to reach store shelves next spring. Also under development is the highly anticipated sequel to "Perfect Dark." The company is expecting to develop at least five games over the next two years in a variety of genres, including racing, shooters and platformers.
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Haha! Five games over the next two years? Rare has never met deadlines and I doubt they start doin\' it now, unless MS staffed them up massively and told them they better get use to short development times and meeting deadlines. And if MS did do that - how will that effect Rare games? Everyone knows Rare is use to being to perfect their games and having no set time frame.
/me hums and doesn\'t like the sound of any of the above propaganda.
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Here\'s one of the games.
Rare and Microsoft Game Studios will be bringing the next Kameo exclusively to the Xbox video game system.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xbox2k.com%2Fscreenshots%2Fshow.php%2Foriginal%2Fkameo%2F6.jpg&hash=f13211454cdaeea6a192150c15395452fd723db8)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xbox2k.com%2Fscreenshots%2Fshow.php%2Foriginal%2Fkameo%2F4.jpg&hash=8ada7e91ebb798d66ac61b5a3f76b3682197f92b)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xbox2k.com%2Fscreenshots%2Fshow.php%2Foriginal%2Fkameo%2F5.jpg&hash=deacff2c83948904003870a9cd942a3d29aeb15d)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xbox2k.com%2Fscreenshots%2Fshow.php%2Foriginal%2Fkameo%2F2.jpg&hash=57c4727e02caa2e7d50d4443f4f61bbef8246d49)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xbox2k.com%2Fscreenshots%2Fshow.php%2Foriginal%2Fkameo%2F3.jpg&hash=f5dfe3e41a19dbf12782cce6c1c093ba8a6596d4)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xbox2k.com%2Fscreenshots%2Fshow.php%2Foriginal%2Fkameo%2F1.jpg&hash=d6ca7044a5898caea843520ed2af62f50f8372d0)
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Those screens are a joke, right? I\'m not sure if I would even claim those screens if I was Rare. Given, they may be early screens , but still, they\'re lookin\' terrible.
At the same time - it looks like a typical Rare game. Cute characters and probably item fetch quest. Good or bad, depending on how well you like Rare\'s formula.
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Here\'s some Perfect Dark info:
According to Microsoft, Rare has five Xbox titles underway that will debut exclusively on the platform over the course of the next two years. The titles include a newly revamped Perfect Dark offering starring a transformed version of the heroine agent (who we will henceforth refer to as Jo-anime Dark). The cartoonish redesign of Dark is much improved over the stiff, possibly lesbian former model, we\'re happy to report.
Jo"Anime" Dark? GIVE ME A BREAK.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcubemedia.ign.com%2Fcube%2Fimage%2Fjoanimedarkxbox.jpg&hash=29025ededdf280e458643bb814a1bc219c76574f)
http://cube.ign.com/articles/372/372014p1.html
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They\'ve lost their minds....
:(
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Jo"Anime" Dark was merely how IGN were referring to them in the article. That\'s not actually gonna be her new name or anything if that\'s what you guys are pissed off about :p
But I don\'t like the fact that they\'ve \'sexied\' her up. Bah... annoying.
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The name isn\'t what I was complaining about. It is the anime style that does not fit her, that bothers me.
Like I said, Rare has lost their minds if this is what they have in store for Perfect Dark Zero.
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This is great news for MS its good to see MS first party get even stronger.:)
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WTF is wrong with that tiger? Looks like he\'s been through the dryer one too many times.
And Jo"Anime" Dark is a desperate attempt to try to get some Japanese marketshare, IMO...
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Joanna Dark looks so cute now.
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definately not what m$ needs to sell a few more systems on japan
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Yeah, Rare was never that big in Japan anyways.