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Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Bossieman on September 18, 2002, 07:25:28 AM
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I have done some research and my conclusions are that it is not possible to bulid and store so many animals for so long time.
A interesting source (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html)
Some questions:
Special diets. Many animals, especially insects, require special diets. Koalas, for example, require eucalyptus leaves, and silkworms eat nothing but mulberry leaves. For thousands of plant species (perhaps even most plants), there is at least one animal that eats only that one kind of plant. How did Noah gather all those plants aboard, and where did he put them?
Other animals are strict carnivores, and some of those specialize on certain kinds of foods, such as small mammals, insects, fish, or aquatic invertebrates. How did Noah determine and provide for all those special diets?
Fresh foods. Many animals require their food to be fresh. Many snakes, for example, will eat only live foods (or at least warm and moving). Parasitoid wasps only attack living prey. Most spiders locate their prey by the vibrations it produces. [Foelix, 1996] Most herbivorous insects require fresh food. Aphids, in fact, are physically incapable of sucking from wilted leaves. How did Noah keep all these food supplies fresh?
Food preservation/Pest control. Food spoilage is a major concern on long voyages; it was especially thus before the inventions of canning and refrigeration. The large quantities of food aboard would have invited infestations of any of hundreds of stored product pests (especially since all of those pests would have been aboard), and the humidity one would expect aboard the Ark would have provided an ideal environment for molds. How did Noah keep pests from consuming most of the food?
Ventilation. The ark would need to be well ventilated to disperse the heat, humidity, and waste products (including methane, carbon dioxide, and ammonia) from the many thousands of animals which were crowded aboard. Woodmorappe (pp. 37-42) interprets Genesis 6:16 to mean there was an 18-inch opening all around the top, and says that this, with slight breezes, would have been enough to provide adequate ventilation. However, the ark was divided into separate rooms and decks (Gen. 6:14,16). How was fresh air circulated throughout the structure?
Sanitation. The ungulates alone would have produced tons of manure a day. The waste on the lowest deck at least (and possibly the middle deck) could not simply be pushed overboard, since the deck was below the water line; the waste would have to be carried up a deck or two. Vermicomposting could reduce the rate of waste accumulation, but it requires maintenance of its own. How did such a small crew dispose of so much waste?
Exercise/Animal handling. The animals aboard the ark would have been in very poor shape unless they got regular exercise. (Imagine if you had to stay in an area the size of a closet for a year.) How were several thousand diverse kinds of animals exercised regularly?
Manpower for feeding, watering, etc. How did a crew of eight manage a menagerie larger and more diverse than that found in zoos requiring many times that many employees? Woodmorappe claims that eight people could care for 16000 animals, but he makes many unrealistic and invalid assumptions. Here are a few things he didn\'t take into account:
Feeding the animals would take much longer if the food was in containers to protect it from pests.
Many animals would have to be hand-fed.
Watering several animals at once via troughs would not work aboard a ship. The water would be sloshed out by the ship\'s roll.
Many animals, in such an artificial environment, would have required additional special care. For example, all of the hoofed animals would need to have their hooves trimmed several times during the year. [Batten, 1976, pp. 39-42]
Not all manure could be simply pushed overboard; a third of it at least would have to be carried up at least one deck.
Corpses of the dead animals would have to be removed regularly.
Animals can\'t be expected to run laps and return to their cages without a lot of human supervision.
References
Batten, R. Peter, 1976. Living trophies. Thomas Y. Crowell Co., New York.
Foelix, Rainer F., 1996. The biology of spiders, 2nd ed., Oxford University Press, New York. Chpt. 6.
Woodmorappe, John, 1996. Noah\'s Ark: a feasibility study. Institute for Creation Research, Santee, California.
5. The Flood Itself
Where did the Flood water come from, and where did it go? Several people have proposed answers to these questions, but none which consider all the implications of their models. A few of the commonly cited models are addressed below.
Vapor canopy. This model, proposed by Whitcomb & Morris and others, proposes that much of the Flood water was suspended overhead until the 40 days of rain which caused the Flood. The following objections are covered in more detail by Brown.
How was the water suspended, and what caused it to fall all at once when it did?
If a canopy holding the equivalent to more than 40 feet of water were part of the atmosphere, it would raise the atmospheric pressure accordingly, raising oxygen and nitrogen levels to toxic levels.
If the canopy began as vapor, any water from it would be superheated. This scenario essentially starts with most of the Flood waters boiled off. Noah and company would be poached. If the water began as ice in orbit, the gravitational potential energy would likewise raise the temperature past boiling.
A canopy of any significant thickness would have blocked a great deal of light, lowering the temperature of the earth greatly before the Flood.
Any water above the ozone layer would not be shielded from ultraviolet light, and the light would break apart the water molecules.
Hydroplate. Walt Brown\'s model proposes that the Flood waters came from a layer of water about ten miles underground, which was released by a catastrophic rupture of the earth\'s crust, shot above the atmosphere, and fell as rain.
How was the water contained? Rock, at least the rock which makes up the earth\'s crust, doesn\'t float. The water would have been forced to the surface long before Noah\'s time, or Adam\'s time for that matter.
Even a mile deep, the earth is boiling hot, and thus the reservoir of water would be superheated. Further heat would be added by the energy of the water falling from above the atmosphere. As with the vapor canopy model, Noah would have been poached.
Where is the evidence? The escaping waters would have eroded the sides of the fissures, producing poorly sorted basaltic erosional deposits. These would be concentrated mainly near the fissures, but some would be shot thousands of miles along with the water. (Noah would have had to worry about falling rocks along with the rain.) Such deposits would be quite noticeable but have never been seen.
So for mee it is pretty clear. What about you guys?
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ever hear of something called faith?
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If the "Flood" story wasn\'t so widespread and consistently similar I might agree with you; but since it is, I still believe that the flood did occur.
IMO, Science knows about 10% of the things that there is to know about our world and they consistently make guesses about the other 90% based on that 10. I think within the next 10 years science is going to have a HUGE paradigm shift. I have read some books that already show the beginnings of a shift in mindset.
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I don\'t think the Bible was meant to be taken literally. Especially since today\'s interpretation is from another language that interpreted another language....and so on. The Dead Sea Scrolls is the language to learn. Ancient Aramaic, I think. The language Jesus and His desciples spoke.
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How did Moses part the Red Sea?
How did Jesus walk on water?
How did many of the biblical stories take place?
Many are not "humanly possible" but have been said to have taken place. When it comes to ancient times we don\'t understand. We\'ll never understad till we meet our maker.
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Things like this make me question everything. The believers don\'t have an explanation so they just say "its god" or "faith".
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theres millions of things even science cannot explain
i\'d take god over science any day
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Bleh, science > God.
;)
I don\'t care what people believe, whether or not they\'re gullibe doesn\'t concern me. I know what I believe. :)
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Originally posted by mm
theres millions of things even science cannot explain
i\'d take god over science any day
You pick god because science can\'t explain everything while you can\'t explain how there is a god.
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lol, we dont have to explain there is a god
thats the scientist\'s bane
are you saying there is no god?
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But sooner or later science comes up with an answer.
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not an answer, a theory
a collective theory at that
they cant even make up thier minds what happened to the dinosaurs
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Originally posted by mm
theres millions of things even science cannot explain
i\'d take god over science any day
hmmm, I always took you for a science person myself.
Anyhoo, like Sammy boy I don\'t belive in god. Science is the way to go as far as I\'m concerned. Now if you\'ll excuse me I have to go and worship a microscope :p
j/k
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science is part of the world god created
ask L. ron hubbard
not believing in god? now thats just ridiculous
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We are pretty close to find the GUT. And after that we should have answers to tons of questions. About the Dinasaurs, well we dont kow exactly what happened to them, we will never do because of time and entropy. maybe soetime in the future we can do some kind of program that can simulate Earth history, who knows.
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Originally posted by mm
not believing in god? now thats just ridiculous
Why? I don\'t believe in a \'god\'. I believe that\'s something humans made up to make their miserable lives seem better.
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therefore you must not believe in a realm after this one
how sad
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Believing in god could be said to be rediculous too.
The sad thing is that you have blind faith. Just believing in god because you can\'t explain things, it seems rather ignorant to say there is some supreme being.
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welp, im not gonna get very involved in this discussion cause i dont feel like being circled
is sad that you guys think were no more than primates or animals, or even organisms that just cease to exist when we die and nothing more
we should just kill ourselves now and cease to live our, what was it? miserable lives?
now, im no bible thumper. heck, ive never ever read it OR been to church more than twice in probably the last 10 years
i just know the value or believing in something grander than myself and humanity
its shallow not to
how is faith ignorance? i choose to believe. i dont have to have everything explained in 1\'s and 0\'s. my god is in the process, yers is in the details.
god is not a man sitting on a throne in heaven. he is fate.
say what you want. on yer death bed, you will be afraid of whats to happen while "the ignorant faithfull" wont
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Originally posted by Samwise
I believe that\'s something humans made up to make their miserable lives seem better.
What was miserable about the ancient man\'s life?
What made their existence worse than our own?
I believe in a lot of things that science has to say; but to put your faith completely in science is just as ridiculous as putting your faith completely in a book that was written, translated, and re-written to suit political gains. IMO there are many things in the Bible that can be historically proven as fact just like there are many things that are unexplainable. The same can be said about science. Science has very little things that they can absolutely prove and many more things that they can not or will not be able to explain with our current knowledge base.
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exactly
there\'s sects of people tha believe jesus didnt have the power of god to heal the sick, and he was just a medical pioneer of that age, and the people at the time saw what he did as miracles
which is fine. perhaps he was just a "doctor" and somehow knew how to make anaesthetics and set bones
what the point is, is that it doesnt matter what happened 2000 years ago. what yer doing today is whats refelcted on yer soul.
or do you not believe you possess a soul?
please do not tell me you dont. how sad and pitifull that would be
completely ruling out science OR god, is just plain ignorant
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What if Noah DID exist? What if he were but a simple farmer who believed he was under devine hindsight, decided to construct a seaworthy vessel for the sole purpose of saving his OWN livestock? You know the format, 2 cows, 2 sheep, 2 pigs, 2 goats etc. What if, over time, and by the simple process of word of mouth, the story of this simple farmer\'s actions to save his own livelyhood "evloved" into the Biblical version we all know today?
So, to say that Noah did not exist can only be passed off as foolish. It is highly posible that he did exist, and that his noble actions were adopted & immortalised by whoever wrote the bible for being so called proof of Gods existance.
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Originally posted by Bozco
Believing in god could be said to be rediculous too.
The sad thing is that you have blind faith. Just believing in god because you can\'t explain things, it seems rather ignorant to say there is some supreme being.
Well I believe atheist are lost souls. Relegion is not a subject I care to argue over. And there is a fine line between science and relegion.
Science can be great, but at the same time it too can be ridiculous. I have nothing against people that don\'t believe in God. And I\'m not a major relegious buff myself. I do however believe in God.
And I also feel your statement is ignorant Boz. It\'s your choice not to belive, but it isn\'t right to say it\'s ignorant to believe in God.
And I don\'t think I belive in God just because I can\'t explain things. I belive in God because I believe in Heaven and Hell.
I could say you\'re ignorant for being a non-believer, but that isn\'t the right thing to do. Again I just believe atheist are lost souls.
To each his own.
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Jaye -
The Biblical flood story is pre-dated by the flood story in the "Epic of Gilgamesh" an ancient sumerian Epic Poem. The flood story also reaches to parts of southern/western africa and the americas. "Something" happened. We just don\'t know exactly what it was.
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I dont belive in a soul. What is the soul anyway? Maybe Noah did exist but he could not have done what the bible says.
Maybe the bible is just stories put togheter in a big book. Someone maybe thought that would be a cool idea. They wrote down what they belived and then the years went on. And other found the bible to be a good book and things went on. And here we are.
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sigh, i cant imagine not having a soul
i think you need a hug
/me squeezes bossieman
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BTW dont turn this into a science vs religion thread. The idea is too discuss if Noah saved all the species with help of a ark.
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i dont think even the mightiest of born-agains could contest that noah possibly put thousands and thousands of animals onto a boat for weeks on end with only the help of his family
its a story just like dozens of others in the bible
its not the story that matters anyways, its the moral behind the story that you missed all thse years, that counts
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Well ´mm´I have never belived in a soul. Maybe because I have never found a reason to have a soul. And you know me. I belive all life is the same, animals, flowers bacteria a.s.o
If I would belive I have a soul I would also have to belive all living things have a solu. And because we are made of stars the stars must have a soul too.
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Originally posted by mm
i dont think even the mightiest of born-agains could contest that noah possibly put thousands and thousands of animals onto a boat for weeks on end with only the help of his family
Can you bet your balls on that?
Im sure tons of people actually belives that, I know 2 for sure.
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you may have a point there
a mother of an ex-girlfriend of mine wanted to debate one night that dinosaurs never existed cause god created the world in 7 days and nothing lived before man and the garden of eden. she claimed all the bones and skeletons we have in museums are faked to help denounce god\'s existance. talk about a crackpot!
i guess there are some extremist wacko\'s in the religion world, and in the *cough* science realm
like dajo said, to each thier own. i\'ll tell you what , im not gonna be looking for guidance from a scientist when im about to die. will you?
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Originally posted by Bossieman
Actually dont belive in a soul. What is the soul anyway? Maybe Noah did exist but he could not have done what the bible says.
Maybe the bible is just stories put togheter in a big book. Someone maybe thought that would be a cool idea. They wrote down what they belived and then the years went on. And other found the bible to be a good book and things went on. And here we are.
you know the Bible is not the "complete" work , there are many Books & passages that are not included in the modern day bible( for simple logistic reasons, it would be soo BIG as a workable Text) .
Plus i think you will find that most of the writings within the bible mirror some Scientific theroys
for example
the Passage from Genisis " let there be light"
Could explain the big bang theroy
plus there are quite a few refrences that depict the world as "not on a pillar like the Greeks belevied but to be suspended in a Sea of Void"
while Noahs Ark could show earily sings of a Global climatic change, were vast regions of graze land being swamped by flash flooding.
so IMO Science isn\'t the Great enemy of Faith, rather as a Quantifiable means as explaining the world and the laws of the universe.
anyway thats just my Beliefs.
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Don\'t patronize me mm. Everything you say about me I think about you, so we might as well just stop there. So to sum up: NO, I don\'t believe in a \'god\'. NO I don\'t believe in a Soul. NO I\'m not sad for not being scared of death or what happens after.
Gohan: I didn\'t mean people in a specific age or time; just mankind in general.
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Originally posted by mm
like dajo said, to each thier own. i tell you what you, im not gonna be looking for guidance from a scientist when im about to day.
well i will!! I hope this scientist is somekind of doctor that says to me:
- No prob Bossieman, we have some new cool tech here, you will live for another 10 years oor so, but we have to put a pig-hearth and some synthetic lungs in you , is that ok?
- Hell yes!!
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not me. you want to extend yer adult diaper years? yer sitting in a old folks home slobbering on yerself and waiting for the puddng tray to come around?
when my time is up, im ready to go. i made my peace with this life a long time ago.
im sorry sammy, i dont mean to come off that way. i respect anyones opinion about religion/science. i just like to know why they think so.
just saying " i dont believe in god cause he killed my cat" never works with me. i like to read hard core thoughts about why you feel like you do. thats all i try to get
believeing in god and having faith in a soul and another life after this one is easy. its denying those thoughts that is hard
tell me why
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Originally posted by Bossieman
well i will!! I hope this scientist is somekind of doctor that says to me:
- No prob Bossieman, we have some new cool tech here, you will live for another 10 years oor so, but we have to put a pig-hearth and some synthetic lungs in you , is that ok?
- Hell yes!!
hmmmmm, why don\'t you sign the "freeze papers" before you die. I\'m sure some of your science buddies will come up with a new way to thaw you out and fix you so that you can live for hundreds of years.
Ted Williams did it. Maybe you can request the tray beside him.
See science can be funny too ;)
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Bossie-
Would you say that being a follower of science involves just as much faith as being a follower of religion?
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Originally posted by mm
believeing in god and having faith in a soul and another life after this one is easy. its denying those thoughts that is hard
tell me why
Its funny because I think just the other way around, but I can explain why I dont belive in a life after or a soul or a God.
Life after is relative, My molecules will be eaten by other living creatures and I will return to earth, but it is not me, just my molecules. I am made of the same molecules that the dinousaurs and people that have died during all times. I´m drinking the same water that the dinousaurs drank.
If I was reborn I would have memories and knowledge. But I was born only with genetic information from my parents. And I dont see peole walking around and telling me that they have had a life before. A life after also means you have had a life before. Do you think you had a life before?
And God is IMO just something that we have made up because we could not explain the world we lived in. We have a need to belive, we seek God when we cant explain why your child dies or you parents. We want to se something good coming out from all miserable things in our world. That it is a reason that my child died, that it will come out something good. If we dont do this alot of people would be extremely depressed.
And for the soul, read my earlier post.
Now you know why I don´t belive. I would like to know why you have your beliefs.
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face it, anything that can be disproved by science, can be proved by the faithful, by saying God made it so.
There will never be any debunking of a religion as long as they have the loop hole of an almighty God that can do anything, and make anything possible.
but I do agree with you in that if we accept that God didn\'t do anything, or even exist. The ark idea is completly false. A while back I figured out that with the animals, food, and water that the ark carried, each animal would have only about the size of a human coffin to live in (poor elephants..). And this was without counting birds, fish and insects.
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Originally posted by mm
im not gonna be looking for guidance from a scientist when im about to die. will you?
I will
Me, on my death bed: Should I go towards the light?
Scientist: Light? bah it\'s only random electrons discharging in your brain causing you to have illusions. Just close your eyes and die already.
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we dont have more than one life on this earth
our souls come from wherever they are born from, and we have the power to shape our course while we are here
this life is a test.
science only leads to a dark, lonely path where are religion leads to a bright one
science says youll cease to exist and end up as worm food
religion says youll end up in heaven/hell
does it really matter while were here?
i cant understand how ceasing to exist doesnt terrify you
it sure scared charles darwin
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Originally posted by Gohan
Bossie-
Would you say that being a follower of science involves just as much faith as being a follower of religion?
In someways yes, if I work on a problem and don´t think there is a solution I wouldn´t work on the problem. I have to belive there is a scientific solution to why there is only lefthanded proteins.
If not the problem has no meaning too me.
Well lets say someone want to know if all the use of shampoos and soups and vaccinations actually makes human weaker agains diceasses, I would jump on this because it is a interesting theory. Someone have maybe done some checkings and found this relation. Then I would go into this task with all my hearth.
I have to belive in the problem before I can do a great job.
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so its not the process that you believe in, its the details (the answers)
which is what ive been saying all along
those that have faith, look for the process
those that dont, seek the answers , repeatedly
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Originally posted by mm
i cant understand how ceasing to exist doesnt terrify you
it sure scared charles darwin
I don\'t know why people think this is such a big deal. :)
I actually think it\'s a relief to think about it that way; when you\'re dead you\'re dead. No more worries, no more BS. Even if you\'re bummed about not \'feeling the eternal love\' or whatever - who cares when you\'re dead! No feelings, no mind, no nothing. I don\'t find it terrifying and I\'m not afraid of dying. Hell, if I were to die tomorrow I wouldn\'t care (well, as long as I didn\'t know about it beforehand ;)). I\'m afraid of a painful death; but not death itself.
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The best explanation yet is by Zacharias Zichin.And doesnt only explain what we read in the bible but other religions and mythologies.They all fit into one story.
Teh Ark could have been some kind of an aircraft and all the animals inside the "ark" were actually embryos.
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if we cease to exist, then the life we lead now is meaningless and moot
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Why is it meaningless? It\'s what you do on Earth now that matters: who you choose to love, who you choose to live with, what you do, what dreams you live etc. I just plan on making my (hopefully) ~80 years something to remember when I\'m an old man.
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yet all that just to take a dirt nap at the end of it?
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Originally posted by mm
yet all that just to take a dirt nap at the end of it?
Yes. :)
As I said, personally I don\'t have a problem with this approach so to speak. But if people choose to believe something else that\'s fine with me. I can\'t decide what works best for other people.
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/me nods in agreement
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My words were taken differently then I meant earlier but this thread has already calmed down so oh well.
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My theory on the Ark (although I don\'t believe in Noah or the ark):
There was a flood. Not a big flood, just in one region. Noah gathered all the animals there and set sail. I find Noah\'s ark to be false because first off, there are billions of species of animals. Can\'t put them all in a boat you build in whatever days noah did it in. Secondly, I don\'t believe in it because there wouldn\'t be enough genetic diversity for the species of animals. Certain viruses embed their DNA within a living being\'s DNA (AIDS) and then they destroy their host cells. That would wipe out a species of animals. That\'s why saving a species by breeding in captivity is not good. The species will eventually have some sort of disease and because they have similar DNA, they would get wiped out.
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Lately I\'ve been in a slump at this subject. I keep going in a cycle where I don\'t believe in god, and then I do. Mostly because I do think there is an afterlife, but I don\'t think there is a god like the christian/muslim/jewish god.
I know it sounds gay but Hinduism, Buddhism, and Doaism sorta have the same views I do. So I\'m thinking of joining one of those religions, but I dont know what my family is gonna think.
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Vivi my suggestion is to not mention it to your parents yet. My mom went off on me because I questioned my belief in god. She went on to say I was going to hell and everything like that.
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^^I know the feeling.
Originally posted by Titan
My theory on the Ark (although I don\'t believe in Noah or the ark):
There was a flood. Not a big flood, just in one region. Noah gathered all the animals there and set sail. I find Noah\'s ark to be false because first off, there are billions of species of animals. Can\'t put them all in a boat you build in whatever days noah did it in. Secondly, I don\'t believe in it because there wouldn\'t be enough genetic diversity for the species of animals. Certain viruses embed their DNA within a living being\'s DNA (AIDS) and then they destroy their host cells. That would wipe out a species of animals. That\'s why saving a species by breeding in captivity is not good. The species will eventually have some sort of disease and because they have similar DNA, they would get wiped out.
The thing is, the same(or similar) flood story exists in countless other religions. Religions that have no contact with one another.
BTW, Billions of species seems way off to me.
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Billions, millions, same thing(well billions if you count all the species of bugs).
I can\'t tell my mom I don\'t believe in God. She\'s pretty religious. Only two people know I don\'t believe in God and I hope they don\'t spread it around.
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Vivi, Buddhism is a philosophy, not a religion. It follows the teachings of Buddha who found enlightenment and is only looked upon as an example for any individual who seeks enlightenment too.
My theory on the Noah story...it\'s just a story to tell people. You know how children\'s books have morals to be taught? That\'s the same thing with Noah and the flood. It\'s a story to be told to believers of God showing a good example of faith and belief. Who cares if the ark can be built or not. It\'s a story for people to look at for guidance.
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Well it\'s still a way of life, thats why I\'m considering it.
Also my parents will probably not let me celebrate christmas.
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If you are scared to tell them, you arent ready to "convert"
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Not true, parents are harsh and he probably just doesn\'t want to hear it from them every day.
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it is very true..if that is the case..he isnt ready to do so.
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Christ, I hate to comming to threads like these late. I didn\'t even read most of it. My idea is that Noah\'s Ark was real.. but it didn\'t take place like how the bible tells it. Simply, Noah did save many of the Animals in the "Known" world at that time. Really Bossie, you\'re theory doesn\'t even take into account the years upon YEARS of work it would take to gather up all those animals from all over the world... in which time the animals he would have rounded up first would have probably died of old age, disease, or preditors.
At the time the story was written the known world was rather small. Most people were still nomads or confined to their own little towns. Now, a massive flood in that area has been theorised to happen durring Noah\'s time because of silt layers they\'ve found when doing soil analysis. It was slightly larger in scale than some of the more recent floods we\'ve had in the US in the south. Noah could very well have contructed a huge ship and gathered up a few hundred species of animals at most.. not including insects, birds, fish, and most plants. It was most certainly not a world encomasing event.. hell we can prove that by looking at the ecology and societyies of other human civilizations in Austrailia, China, Russia, Europe, and the Americas from around the time Noah was thought to have lived.
I wish I had a link.. I\'m jus recalling this all from a Discovery channel special I\'d seen. Maybe it was History channel.. not sure. I\'ll look it up if anyone want to discuss it further but it\'s not worth it right now.
As for "God" and weither he exists. I believe he does. I believe in science also. People have been searching for "God" since mankind began pretty much.. and yet we still don\'t have any definitive proof of him or even a clear image of who/what he is and what his/it\'s plan for us all is. I think he\'s out there far beyond the recognision of our sciences.. waiting.. pulling the strings that makes the universe work. Maybe "he" is a property of the universe? Another force like gravity? There\'s so many unanswered questions, that you jus have to take it on faith for now. Yet science is making real progress in our lives, despite it\'s shortcommings. Neanderthal Man lived for 250,000 years and the most he ever made was simple spears and rock tools. Our history spans roughly 80,000 years and we\'ve walked on the moon, seen to the edge of existance, dissected our own genetic code, and created machines capable of doing more calculations in a fraction of a second than a man could do in his lifetime. While me may jus be manipulating the same tools God used to create and maintain the universe, we\'re still doing some increadible things for a species so young.
I think there\'s plenty of room for both God and Science in our world. You jus have to admit that Science isn\'t foolproof.. and God isn\'t something tangable or measurable. He\'s not the "wise old man" we see depicted.. he\'s something so far beyond our science and imagination that right now.. trying to put a face and purpose to him is futile.
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I just noticed this thread now......the only post i read was bossiemans first post and thats all.....
I can tell you right now that i never have to ponder or think or worry about these things becuase God does not exist...
imo
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^^
He\'s cool! and ballsy!
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If god does exist 75% of this forum is screwed :bounce:
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/me rapes vivi for pointing out my blasphemy
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Originally posted by mm
ever hear of something called faith?
It\'s offen refuted by something called common sense.
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But they wen\'t in 2 by 2, how could you not beleave, 2 by 2.
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The bible is a book of stories by a few people who did lots of drugs. Heck, everyone did drugs then.
Yes, there probably was a lot of rain. Yes, a dude probably built a boat.
The dude probably put all his goats and shit on the boat. Then some dude saw him floating by with his animals on it.
This dude was tripping on some sweet acid and was like, "Dude, he\'s got like so many animals on that boat.. whoa...."
That got passed down to another dude.
That got passed to another dude.
Then by the time it got to the burner who wrote the story down it was that this guy had a huge arc and had 2 of everything.
Thank god the arc wasn\'t travelling in the red sea when hercules parted it. Or whoever it was.
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Originally posted by mm
science only leads to a dark, lonely path where are religion leads to a bright one
But of course.. Religion is only responsible for the horrible witch burnings in the 1600-1700 century where they burned women alive, or tied their hands together to see if they could float.
Or killing people who tried to prove the earth was round, not flat like the church said.
Or the holy crusades where the holy knights killed almost all the people in Jerusalem.
Or going against authority (aka God.. authority = god back then) and being killed.
Or, or or..
Science contributed to a technological boom in Europe. Scientists started exploring the world and the universe. If we still would have been religious freaks we would still be in the dark ages.
Edit: Maybe Columbus would not have found (well, actually he was second.. Leif Eriksson was first ;)) America because they were so afraid of sailing off the edge of the earth.
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yer talking about extremists hundreds of years ago, AND you are confusing religion with church
church is an establishment. it is a business. which is why i dont participate. it is not a sin to not go to church. i feel all my god asks for is recognition and reverence. is it really that cool to not believe in god? seriously.
you do not want to mention the attrocities that science has created, do you?
I made one great mistake in my life... when I signed the letter to President Roosevelt recommending that atom bombs be made
science ended up breaking poor alberts heart
faith leads to tranquility
denial does not
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I made one great mistake in my life... when I signed the letter to President Roosevelt recommending that atom bombs be made
Well, It would not matter what he would have said, Roosevelt would have done it anyway.
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regardless
one of his greatest achievements became the worlds MOST destructive force ever known
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The thing about science.... yes, it can\'t explain everything right now. Does that mean it can\'t eventually? No.
Just think of how far science has come in 200 years. Who\'s to say what is known by scientists in 2202? Remember that right now isn\'t an absolute. And personally I don\'t feel like \'explaining\' things I don\'t know about, by using the universal answer: "It\'s God\'s doing." I\'d rather just accept the fact that I can\'t explain it. Someday we probably can.
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but why explain it?
one of these days, a scientist somewhere is gonna go one step past the manmade ebola virus, or the manmade AIDS virus, and we wont be able to contain it
think about the atom bomb we mentioned earlier. there was fear among everyone that the chain reaction might no stop and the entire planet might be consumed. did this stop them from testing it? hell no! they pressed right ahead to see what would happen. luckily, it didnt, and only a few square mile radius of area was eradicated.
dont get me wrong, science (just like religion) has two sides
without science, we would have no chocolate ice cream, and i sure do love chocolate ice cream
hmmmmmm...
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Well, whether or not science can/will create weapons of mass destruction has nothing to do with if it can eventually explain all the things related to religion.
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perhaps, one can explain the other
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Science creates the weapons, Religious fanatics use them.
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Samwise -
Who is to say that in 200 years science won\'t prove many spiritual and religious things to be true?
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Originally posted by Bossieman
Science creates the weapons, Religious fanatics use them.
Yeah, the pope really knocked em dead with those Atomic Bombs. :rolleyes:
So are you saying that if it wasn\'t for "religious fanatics" that the weapons made by scientists would not be used? That is ridiculous.
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Originally posted by Gohan
Who is to say that in 200 years science won\'t prove many spiritual and religious things to be true?
Hello!! We have 10000+ religion on this planet, I cant even think of how many Gods or other things. Science will never prove them right because they contradictions between them.
Impossble.
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Originally posted by Gohan
So are you saying that if it wasn\'t for "religious fanatics" that the weapons made by scientists would not be used? That is ridiculous.
Some weapons would be used but there is 30+ military conflicts in the world. 90% of them are in someway connected to religion.
So I still thinks religion is in someway the root to most wars and conflicts.
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Originally posted by Bossieman
Hello!! We have 10000+ religion on this planet, I cant even think of how many Gods or other things. Science will never prove them right because they contradictions between them.
Impossble.
I never said ANYTHING about proving a religion to be true. There are many spiritual ideas and religious concepts that are consistent throughout many religions.
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What kind of spiritual stuff and religious stuff are you talking about?
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Originally posted by Bossieman
Some weapons would be used but there is 30+ military conflicts in the world. 90% of them are in someway connected to religion. So I still thinks religion is in someway the root to most wars and conflicts.
Again, you are wrong. 99% of the conflicts in known history were connected to money. The crusades were under the guise of religion when in actuallity the Muslims were, and had been for a long time, disrupting european trade routes. Trade routes that the vatican relied on to keep their finances(ie. power).
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lol, religion causing war
"yer god sux0rs!"
"no! yer god sux0rs!"
money is the root of all evil, everyone knows this
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Originally posted by Bossieman
What kind of spiritual stuff and religious stuff are you talking about?
Examples: The idea of an afterlife. The concept of a soul or spirit.
If it were only religious fanatics having near death experiences then I could say that their mind is playing tricks on them; but many atheists have had visions of an afterlife after they have been declared clinically dead.
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Well, why dont you tell all the jews that WWII was just about money not religion, or that Bin Ladin used religion for sep 11. Or the conflicts in palestina/Israel, tell them its about money not belives in God.
You tell me its about money, I tell you its about GOD!!That other think different than you. I didnt say only religious maniacs had near-death experience.
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Hell, it been one of this religion vs science thread.
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hitler fighting a holy war?
sheesh. ive heard it all now
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Are people actually being serious when denying that religion causes wars?
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Originally posted by Bozco
Are people actually being serious when denying that religion causes wars?
I think so, i´m not sure, nothing suprices me anymore.
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there hasnt been a religious war since the crusades and what do you think the christians and muslims were fighting over?
thats right, land
:nut:
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:nut: The land God gave them maybe? :thepimp:
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they were fighting over profit of the land. both parties felt they had rights to live there
regardless, your talking about thousands of years ago now, not just hundreds
come back to the 1900\'s at the earliest if yer finished digging
oh, and tell me again how hitler fought a religious war
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So it was an illusion when I say on TV that women were screaming, "Its our country, God gave it to us"
I dont think so, what kind of Tv do you have over at the US, only what the people are allowed to see or what?
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you saw crusaders on the TV?
or do you believe everything you see on TV?
in case you havnt read alot of my posts, i dont watch much TV
if i do happen to have time, i turn on the history channel, food network, or discovery channel, and even then, i get bored quickly
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Well whatta ya know, I agree with most of what mm said so far. :)
Men use religion for evil. There is nothing more sickening than that. Men also use science for evil but I don\'t go around condemning all of science.
Funny thing is, scientists seem to have faith in things they don\'t even know exist.
Ace
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/me agrees
sub atomic particles? prions? #racers# heterosexual behavior?
its pure faith by scientists that these things exist
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Well, we wil lonly get mad at eachother if we continiue in this direction. You belive what you do I belivie in what I belive in.
So what about the Arc?
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hitler didnot order the killing of jews coz of religon but because he was a racist pig.
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the Arc as in jesus\' burial arc?
i put it in the same category as atlantis
right tyrant, he hated EVERY race that wasnt aryan. hitler was a christian. im sorry if yer JUST finding this out know. he fiercely believed in god and felt germany was losing the war cause they turned thier back on god just like israel did.
he ordered the killing of jews cause he felt they were merely animals and not humans
i guess noone else read mein kampf
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My guess is not everyone on these forums wants to read a lunatics(yet very brilliant in his own respect) beliefs. What is it to say that anyones beliefs are wrong, that was what causes so much hatred in our world, always has and always will, I\'m opened minded, I believe if you can physically prove to me that something is real, I\'d believe it. Now anyways, Noahs Arc, merely impossible when did the arc happen millions of years ago, we\'ve never indicated that we have found man from millions of years ago, at least common day man! So how the hell would he build this boat??? What tools what knowledge, did god give him the tools and abilities to do all of this??? I mean even if it was only a few animals, man has been known to exaggerate events in life, especially in our earlier less formidable years.
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Thanks, but I\'m really not brilliant. Just really smart. :)
Ace
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Its rather simple.
Scientists agree that all life on Earth can come from something like 30 types of birds, 15 types of reptiles, etc.
Noah didnt have a million species of animals on the ark.
So, there it is :)
Or we can go the evolutionist route and believe in the odds of 1 : 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
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people also lived alot longer back then too
no preservitives or macdonalds to give us heart desease or cancer to kill us off
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Originally posted by Bossieman
So it was an illusion when I say on TV that women were screaming, "Its our country, God gave it to us"
I dont think so, what kind of Tv do you have over at the US, only what the people are allowed to see or what?
What the people of a country feel and what the heirarchy of a country feels are rarely(if ever) the same. Do you think people would support a war if the leaders came out and said "They have too much control of [insert resource here]. We must stop them inorder to protect and increase our own wealth"? The answer(in case the scientific method has not answered it yet) is NO. They appeal to the basest form of human nature and tell the people that a) their lives are in danger or b) their religion is in danger. Plain and simple.
The taliban attacked the US. Was it because of Allah? Did Allah say that we were evil? Why didn\'t Allah say we were evil decades ago when we were giving them financial support and weapons in order to attack russia? They are angry over the fact that the US no longer supports them yet supports some of their rivals who are now strategically better suited for US alliances. The fact that they are a religious state does not mean that everything they do has religious conotations.
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Originally posted by mm
people also lived alot longer back then too
no preservitives or macdonalds to give us heart desease or cancer to kill us off
I always thought ppl didnt live as long back then due to sickness and disease\'s that couldnt be cured or treated.
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were talking pre-roman era here, remember
VERY pre-roman
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Right when I saw the title of this thread, I said to myself, "Oh no, not another one." I know, I\'m 5 pages too late. But it had to be said. :)
mjps21983,
Noahs Arc, merely impossible when did the arc happen millions of years ago, we\'ve never indicated that we have found man from millions of years ago, at least common day man!
Don\'t go arguing against a story you know nothing about. The Bible says that the world is only around 6000 years old, not millions. The great flood supposedly happened around 3000 BC (just a huge estimation, but it gives you a general idea of when these things supposedly took place.)
luckee,
I always thought ppl didnt live as long back then due to sickness and disease\'s that couldnt be cured or treated.
In the Bible many people lived 500+ years old. Slowly over time that number decreased. It wasn\'t really bad until after Christ\'s death and what I believe -- the apostasy of his church (400 AD to just recently), where during this time it got to the point where people normally lived up to around 30ish years old.
Vivi,
If god does exist 75% of this forum is screwed.
Not necessarily. One can not believe in God and still live righteously.
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Isnt part of "acceptance" to heaven also accepting and believing in HIM and HIS word?
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Isnt part of "acceptance" to heaven also accepting and believing in HIM and HIS word?
Yes. I think all Christian religions agree with that. But one thing most Christian religions don\'t believe in is a chance after this life to accept Jesus Christ.
Hypothetically speaking, if a person lives their whole life serving others, helping others, showing love, support, charity, etc, and avoiding the things that they know are sinful as well as they can, but unfortunately, they never learn about Jesus Christ and his power to redeem our souls, are they damned for eternity?
I don\'t think so. I believe that there will be another chance in the next life for those who have lived a righteous life yet haven\'t had a chance to accept Jesus Christ. So yes, through Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. But no, the people who don\'t believe in him now are not necessarily "screwed" as Vivi put it. Not all of them at least.
But of course, this is just what I believe on the matter based on how my religion has brought me up. Others will surely have different opinions than I.
*Note* I might not be on these forums for the next week. I hope this thread isn\'t locked before I get back. *counts the seconds before Clowd enters this thread* :p
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Originally posted by Bossieman
Exercise/Animal handling. The animals aboard the ark would have been in very poor shape unless they got regular exercise. (Imagine if you had to stay in an area the size of a closet for a year.) How were several thousand diverse kinds of animals exercised regularly?
Manpower for feeding, watering, etc. How did a crew of eight manage a menagerie larger and more diverse than that found in zoos requiring many times that many employees? Woodmorappe claims that eight people could care for 16000 animals, but he makes many unrealistic and invalid assumptions. Here are a few things he didn\'t take into account:
Credibility is very low if you dont even know how long the Flood lasted. No, it wasnt a year long.
As I said, there were no where near \'thousands\' of animals on the ark.
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Then Clowd, why are there thousands of species of animal on earth (actually in the millions counting insects)? They just didn\'t magically appear. The flood was pretty high.
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Originally posted by Titan
Then Clowd, why are there thousands of species of animal on earth (actually in the millions counting insects)? They just didn\'t magically appear. The flood was pretty high.
Just like why there are alot of different races of people even though they all came from just 2
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Originally posted by Clowd
Just like why there are alot of different races of people even though they all came from just 2
hahaha, I\'d like to see you prove this.
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They didn\'t come from just two. They evolved from common ancestors and due to the fact that they lived in different regions, their bodies needed to make vitamin C. The darker skin people also live closer to the equator and they don\'t get sunburned. Depending on the region they are in is the way they evolved.
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Originally posted by Clowd
Just like why there are alot of different races of people even though they all came from just 2
And what would this reason be that answers both of these questions?
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What religion are you Clowd?
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Originally posted by Bozco
hahaha, I\'d like to see you prove this.
"They didn\'t come from just two. They evolved from common ancestors and due to the fact that they lived in different regions, their bodies needed to make vitamin C. The darker skin people also live closer to the equator and they don\'t get sunburned. Depending on the region they are in is the way they evolved."
- Titan
Prove this
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Originally posted by Titan
They didn\'t come from just two. They evolved from common ancestors and due to the fact that they lived in different regions, their bodies needed to make vitamin C. The darker skin people also live closer to the equator and they don\'t get sunburned. Depending on the region they are in is the way they evolved.
There is a scientific study going on right now that says all life on earth can be traced back to one woman in eastern africa. I don\'t know the exact statistics; but they had a show about it on the Discovery channel.
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Originally posted by Clowd
"They didn\'t come from just two. They evolved from common ancestors and due to the fact that they lived in different regions, their bodies needed to make vitamin C. The darker skin people also live closer to the equator and they don\'t get sunburned. Depending on the region they are in is the way they evolved."
- Titan
Prove this
I\'m not asking him to back up his statements, don\'t dodge the task. :rolleyes:
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Im still waiting to be answered as well.
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There were more advanced civlizations from ours long long time and the met destruction 3 times.One was the flood.
In the Bible many people lived 500+ years old. Slowly over time that number decreased. It wasn\'t really bad until after Christ\'s death and what I believe -- the apostasy of his church (400 AD to just recently), where during this time it got to the point where people normally lived up to around 30ish years old.
Those people that lived 500 years are beleived to have existed.They were bigger in size than us(Magnetic feilds the same of a planet bigger than earth\'s can make an animal grew larger in size).These are what people thought to be Gods like the 12 Gods of Olympus.
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Its rather simple.
Scientists agree that all life on Earth can come from something like 30 types of birds, 15 types of reptiles, etc.
Noah didnt have a million species of animals on the ark.
So, there it is
Or we can go the evolutionist route and believe in the odds of 1 : 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
00000000 - Clowd
I think you\'ve gone a bit overboard on the evolution thing. Modern Man -HomoSapien (Including Noah) has only been around for roughly 80,000 years. That\'s not nearly enough time for evolution to create the plethora of life we find now. That takes hundreds of thousands of years. Pretty much all the species we have now (aside from those we\'ve bred specifically) were around back then too.
Ok, now lets shave that time table down a bit. Man didn\'t leave Africa until around 60,000 BC as proven by soil analysis of archeological digs which corrosponds to our genetic "distance" (measuring the rate at which genetic changes occur, and then using DNA from native Africans to determine how long it\'s been since they left africa) from our common mother.. the scientific Eve.
60,000 years is just when we happened to leave Africa.. this doesn\'t count all the 1,000\'s of years we\'ve spent expanding across the globe and setting up cultures that would eventually grow to what we know today.. including religeon.
Now.. Noah lived in a small town right? He was a farmer or a shepard correct? Human\'s didn\'t start creating towns until they learned agriculture. Up until then we were all Hunter/Gatherers who had to stay on the move if we wanted to track prey and eat. The invention of farming allowed tribes to stay in one spot and eventually develop cities. This happened at approximately 20,000 years ago.
So Noah\'s time couldn\'t have been before 20,000 BC at the earlierst. (Not counting the time it would have taken for cities to arize from villages, advanced woodworking and ship building techniques to be learned, and iron to be forged for nails and such). There\'s no possible way evolution can be used to explain how many animals Noah had on his ark. It jus doesn\'t work like that. In 250,000 years, Neanderthal man hadn\'t changed a bit.. and it eventually killed him when a more efficent hunter came into his territory (US). Why should other animal species change so rapidly when even our closest relative can go a quarter of a million years without changing substancially?
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Originally posted by Gohan
There is a scientific study going on right now that says all life on earth can be traced back to one woman in eastern africa. I don\'t know the exact statistics; but they had a show about it on the Discovery channel.
I heard about this. I think they actually think that all humans started from about 5. But if they were just women, were they raped by monkey\'s? (to tell the truth, I\'m only assuming from what I heard).
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Originally posted by Titan
I heard about this. I think they actually think that all humans started from about 5. But if they were just women, were they raped by monkey\'s? (to tell the truth, I\'m only assuming from what I heard).
Nah, there were men; but the gene that scientists look for is passed down from woman to woman. So you have the gene but only your sister will pass it on to the next generation.
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I don\'t have any sisters and there hasn\'t been a girl ever born into my dads side of the family.
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...no...u guys are all wrong.
all life can be traced back to me....its true..its true,....i am all ur days....yes it did take quite a long time...and effort ;) but hey...ur all here...dont complain!
but seriously....screw this thread...it is going to become some religion/elevoultion bull shit
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The name of that show was The Real Eve, I saw it last week in a history class of mine in college..
Basically when you are born you get genes from mom and from dad. Supposedly there is some sorta mithochondria crap that can only be passed on through the females because when the sperm enters the egg, it\'s tail that holds the same type of mitochondria that the egg does is not passed on because the tail is cut off.... or something like that. :nerd:
It will be interesting to all the people who don\'t believe in God (about 90% of my class).. For me, it was sleeper. lol
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I\'m sure that there were more women that it could be traced back to though. They only found a few but because of evolution, there are a helluva lot more.
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^^^um.....actually it might not have been "all" life but a very high percentage, as in 99.99 etc. can be traced back to one woman.
They said that there were other women alive at the time of the "real" eve but still all life traces back to her. I don\'t remember how since its been so long since I\'ve seen the show. Maybe serrano remembers.
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Naw Gohan, that\'s not it. The real "Eve" isn\'t the mother of the human race. She\'s the mother of the humans who left Africa. The way it goes I guess, is when you\'re DNA reproduces when you have kids, it changes jus a little.. but leaves traces that can be compaired and followed. Kinda like, you\'re DNA is a blueprint for your body.. but also carries with it a rough draft of all the people who came before you. All races of humans in all areas of the world share some similar Y (female) chromosomes up to a point.. which happens to be the point that evidence suggests humans first successfully trekked outta Africa and started populating the rest of the world.
There\'s more diversity in the genes between two seperate african tribes than there is between a Icelander, a Native American, and a Japaneese person. They might look similar, but their genetic "rough drafts" follow the paths led by other "mothers" who stayed in Africa. I find that hard to believe, since they look so similar and we all look so different.. but I guess it\'s true. *Shrugs*
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*Back to the topic that started this thread*
Here\'s my 2 cents. I think that there was definately some mass destruction caused by God, it could have been a flood, maybe not. So many other religions have a similar story. For example, in Egyptian mythology, Ra got sick of man and decided to destroy man. Ra had Horobus blanket the earth in fire, but all the people in the shadows, unseen by the sun, we unharmed. So Ra went and sent his eye, in the form of Sextet(sp?) to burn the people in hiding with flaming sword. Before Sextet killed eveyone Ra was thinking he should keep some people alive, so he tricked Sextet into stopping by creating a pool of wine mixed with blood. When Sextet saw it she couldn\'t help but drink it all, and all those who remained were saved.
The point is, we can\'t fully understand what happened way back when, stories change, but the main message still remains. Almost every culture has a story of the earth being comsumed by something that killed off most of man.
I believe it happened, but I don\'t know how it happened. Or for that matter, who specifically survived.
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im not gonna bother reading this whole thread but i have to say it bothers me bossieman took the time to research this
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Originally posted by Troglodyte
*Back to the topic that started this thread*
Here\'s my 2 cents. I think that there was definately some mass destruction caused by God, it could have been a flood, maybe not. So many other religions have a similar story. For example, in Egyptian mythology, Ra got sick of man and decided to destroy man. Ra had Horobus blanket the earth in fire, but all the people in the shadows, unseen by the sun, we unharmed. So Ra went and sent his eye, in the form of Sextet(sp?) to burn the people in hiding with flaming sword. Before Sextet killed eveyone Ra was thinking he should keep some people alive, so he tricked Sextet into stopping by creating a pool of wine mixed with blood. When Sextet saw it she couldn\'t help but drink it all, and all those who remained were saved.
There was something similar in Greek mythology.Apollo\'s son took his father\'s firy chariot and flew lower than he had too so everything that was exposed to it got burnt.Zeus wrath resulted to a thunder that killed him.Atleast thats how I remember it. Troglodyte sure might know better.
Its one of the supposed 3 earth destructions.One is the flood,the other is the fire and the last I cant remember.
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Originally posted by Gohan
^^^um.....actually it might not have been "all" life but a very high percentage, as in 99.99 etc. can be traced back to one woman.
They said that there were other women alive at the time of the "real" eve but still all life traces back to her. I don\'t remember how since its been so long since I\'ve seen the show. Maybe serrano remembers.
I doubt ALL life gets traced back to a preman woman. I believe it\'s possible with just humans but like deer and bears don\'t get traced back to a human women.