PSX5Central
Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: IronFist on October 31, 2002, 05:59:48 PM
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So who\'s up to it? Does anyone here want to have a discussion about different religions, and the different beliefs in those religions? Does anyone want to discuss different verses from the scriptures, and the different interpretations of those verses? Does anyone want to discuss when/where/by who/why their church got started? Does anyone want to ask questions about the beliefs in someone else\'s, or even their own religion that they don\'t quite understand?
I understand that most of us are still very limited when it comes to discussing religious things (*cough* me! *cough*), especially compared to many other people out there on the internet. But I figure that if we don\'t ever challenge ourselves, we will never improve. If we really do believe in our religion, we should want to be able to defend it against the bigots, and explain it to the millions of people out there who do not understand our beliefs. Without practice, this is very difficult to do -- especially in person when you don\'t have a chance to go research the answer. So if you are not able to answer a question, don\'t panic. Now is your chance to find out the answer. Just ask around, or do some research until you get the answer (or I guess you could ignore it ;)).
It would be great to hear from all of you, even the non-believers out there (although I don\'t want this to turn into a "Proof of God vs Proof of Evolution" thread! ;)) If you have a question about something someone else believes, or a question that you think will stump someone else, ask away. :)
*note* As far as I know, we haven’t heard from anyone who is a member of a non-Christian church. I would love to hear from you non-Christians out there, because my knowledge of your religions is very limited (almost non-existent).
It will help if you say what religion you belong to (of course, you do not have to). That way we can know who to ask about certain things. For those that don\'t know, I\'m a Mormon, AKA LDS, AKA a member of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints."
My first question is about salvation by grace alone VS salvation by grace and works. Many Christians out there believe that all they have to do is say they believe in Jesus Christ, and they will be saved by Christ\'s grace. They can be sinners their whole life, then as they are about to die, say they believe in Christ and they will be saved. If this is true, then how do you interpret the many scriptures in the bible that say just the opposite -- that you need both grace and good works to be saved? For example, Matthew 7: 22, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
If you have an answer to this question, or a question of your own, or just a comment, feel free to post it.
Oh, and I won\'t feel bad if no one is up for a religious discussion. If no one is interested, just let this thread drop into the abyss of old threads.
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Well, as everyone knows, I am a Christian, and not just one of those dicky ones that goes to church on Christmas day.
I do not classify Christianity as a relgion, more so a way of life. God never intended humans to be bound by laws and traditions, but to have a free will to make their own decisions, otherwise, why would have God given us a will? Gods laws, such as the ten commandments etc are their to protect us. God did not create laws to bind us.
You have interpretted that scripture entirely wrong. Man is not judged by works, but by his heart. God knows we are not perfect, and that we make mistakes. Not everyone has been given the personality/ability to be able to go and preach the gospel on city streets like Jesus did. God has given each and everyone of us gifts that make us unique. I believe as long as we use these gifts to glorify God, then thats all that matters. If you can only lead one person to the Lord in your life, maybe because your shy and timmid, then I believe you are just as high regarded as someone like Billy Graeme etc, who has led thousand to the Lord because thats his calling. Its the way you use you gifts to glorify the Lord that counts.
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Well said, Racer.:)
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First off let me say that I didn\'t read the posts in this thread.
BUt I just have to say that whatever racer said is wrong. Dinosaurs on the arc... Heh, who\'d have thunk it.
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No one knows why dinosaurs became extinct, but I do believe that the earth was a very different place to the original one before the flood.
In the original world, it is belived there was once a great water vapour cannopy around the earth. "The waters... above the firmament" (GEN 1:7). There was no rainfall on the early earth before the flood, "But a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground". (GEN 2:6).
The great water vapour cannopy inhabited rainfall by mainting worldwide, fairly mild, warm climate with none of the wide temperature changes that cause the necassary conditions for rainfall. There was no rain, and no rainbows.
The change in climate that came after the flood could have killed many animals. We know that many of the dinosaurs lived in far northern countries, because their fossils have been found above the artic circle, and in the Antartic. Greenland, which is now covered in ice, is thought to have once been a subtropical haven much like that of Puerto Rico.
I am not here to argue. I do believe that dinosaurs were on the arc, whether it be by devine intervention of God or not.
Also, many of todays animals have interbred with eachother, creating new species, meaning that some of todays creatures may not have been around 7000 years ago when the flood is thought to have occured.
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I would also like to say I didn\'t read most of this thread. This is my belief though on religion:
Religion is nothing more than glorified superstition. Religion, in all its forms is nothing more than ignorance, and has only served to hinder our progress, and drive us apart. The world would be a better place without it, and we would be a better people.
However, at the same time, I don\'t care what others believe. You have the right to believe what ever you will, and I would never try to force my beliefs on another.
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Hey, Allow me to add.
AHMEN BROTHER!!!!
Heh, I read Shockwaves post. It rocked!!!
Although I have to disagree on the ignorance comment for there are many smart people who use religion as a way of making themselves feel better about themselves. Usually it\'s because they are cheating on their wives, drink too much, stole gas, etc..
Religion is a way for people to push their problems on to something unexplainable. It makes people happy.
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Well, everyone is ignorant in certain ways. This just happens to be one of those ways for some people. Just because you are ignorant to something doesn\'t mean you are a bad person. Some of my best friends are religious.
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jesus and i love you vid.
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You said I interpreted the scripture entirely wrong, but I think you misunderstood the question. I agree with what you said for the most part (I\'ll comment on a few parts below) and as far as I can see you agree with me. You didn\'t answer the main question though. The question is for those who believe in deathbed repentance -- accepting Christ right before you are about to die, and without even an effort to show your love of Christ, you are saved. Or another example, like you said going to church every Christmas, saying you believe in Christ, and then going home to a sinful life without even a thought of Christ until next year\'s Christmas church session. Will those people be saved by Jesus Christ\'s grace? I know many Christians who believe that believing Christ died for their sins is all that is required to be saved, and they can do whatever they want in life as long as they believe in Christ. I am interested in how they interpret scriptures that state just the opposite, that more than faith is required for salvation.
Another example of scriptures that show work is required is found in James, chapter 2:
17, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
24, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
It looks pretty obvious to me that works are required from these verses, but obviously all Christians don\'t see eye to eye on this subject.
Originally posted by ##RaCeR##
Not everyone has been given the personality/ability to be able to go and preach the gospel on city streets like Jesus did. God has given each and everyone of us gifts that make us unique. I believe as long as we use these gifts to glorify God, then thats all that matters. If you can only lead one person to the Lord in your life, maybe because your shy and timmid, then I believe you are just as high regarded as someone like Billy Graeme etc, who has led thousand to the Lord because thats his calling. Its the way you use you gifts to glorify the Lord that counts.
I agree, God has given each of us different gifts. But even though not all of us have the same gifts, God does provide a way for each of us to do his will. This reminds me of a story in the Bible when God asked Moses to preach the gospel. In exodus 4:
"10 And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.
11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man’s mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
12 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say."
Moses still was worried, so even after saying that he would help Moses speak, the Lord provided another way for Moses to preach the gospel -- through his brother Aaron.
If we have a desire to serve God, God will provide a way for us to do so. I have seen this many times as shy people in my church go on missions. They go out, serve very successful mission, then two years later they return home and are completely different people -- no longer suffering from there shyness. They are able to listen to the holy spirit, and have a desire to do so. They want Christ\'s church to be spread throughout the world. They are blessed because of this.
I want to point out that "works" is not only referring to preaching the gospel. It is also talking about serving others. As Christ said in Matthew 25:40, "...Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." When you are serving your fellow man, you are serving your God. There are many ways to serve your fellow man, thus, there are many works that can be done. I agree with you that man is judged by his heart, but the way I see it, if a man loves the Lord, if his heart is in the right place, he will serve him and do works for him. He will actually have a desire to do works for him! (<-- No, I\'m not yelling. I just think it\'s really exciting. :))
As for the rest of the posts, I’ll respond tomorrow night. I have to get at least 6 hours of sleep tonight or tomorrow’s day of work is going to suck. Goodnight.
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God doesnt exist. When you die, you dont exist.
There\'s my piece disscusion.
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To be deadly honest, Mormanism is a form of cult.
If someone is on their deathbed, I think they need to make their peace with God, not just say \'I believe in you\' and then they die. They must trully be repentant of their sins.
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Originally posted by ##RaCeR##
To be deadly honest, Mormanism is a form of cult.
Do you mind telling me why?
Ok, I\'m going to bed for reals (I just brushed my teeth :)). I expect an answer to that question when I check the forums tomorrow. You can\'t say something like that without backing it up.
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Well, Ironfist, Mormans do NOT believe that Jesus Christ was the messiah, rather just a man who did good works (again, your religions works theory is in full force).
You keep quoting Bible versus yet you don\'t believe everything in the Bible.
Whats your views on Joseph Smith? What do you believe in, The Bible or The Book of Morman?
I think this sums your RELIGION and my BELIEFS up quite nicely, and you will see why Mormanism is a form of cult.
True Mormans believe man is progressively becoming a god. Mormnas teach that Adams sin in Eden was necassary in order to provide parentage for the spirit Children of God who were ready and waiting for the experience of earth life.
Man is NOT godlike, but sinful and separated from God. Man can only approach God and have a relationship with Him through faith in CHRIST. Man, apart from Christ, is lost (Rom. 5:12-19; 6:23; Eph. 2:1,2)
God is also a material creature who was once a man as we are now men. They say men can finally achieve godhood through works and that there are many gods. Mormans also have new scripture and writings of Joseph Smith which are \'devine revelations\', Gods nineteenth centur additions to the Bible.
God is uniquely eternal and all powerful, the ONLY one God and he is a Spirit (Ps. 145:13; John 4:24; 1 Tim. 1:17)
You also believe that salvation comes by works and all men will spend eternity on some level of a multi storied heaven. The level will be determined by the scope of each mans good works.
Salvation is a free gift provided by the grace of God for all who believe AND accept His plan (Eph. 2:8,9; John 12:26; 14:1-3,6; 1 John 3:1,2)
You are so bound by laws and traditions its not funny.
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I\'m a Christian too but I didn\'t go to Church in a long time. I believe in God.
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When it comes to religion, I believe that there are miracles that happen on this Earth that are unexplainable and those such miracles can be seen as whatever anyone wants them to be either through divine interference or just plain dumb luck. Because of those things, I can\'t say that God doesn\'t exist. In fact, I\'m sure there is something out there beyond our comprehension that does exist, but what it is and how it came to be is anybody\'s guess. I can accept and appreciate that and I can wholeheartidly throw myself behind that and say "hey, it\'s possible and I\'d love to meet them." I can stand, agree, and believe that those things are possible.
As for the followers, they\'re the reasons why I don\'t practice religion, why I don\'t go to church, why I don\'t spend every waking moment doing good deeds, and why I don\'t care for most of mankind who choose to be so extreme with their choices in life. I don\'t need religion shoved down my throat and I don\'t need some jerk telling me that I should "repent and be saved." Why should I have to listen to this crap? Is it insecurity on their part? Why do I have to wake up every morning and have it rubbed in my face that I am not Mormon or Christian, or Jewish, or... take your pick. People have beliefs, that\'s fine, but why do we need a church? Why do I have to visit it? Why do I need to pray? Doesn\'t God know everything? Doesn\'t God know how I feel or what I would like? If he knows such things, he doesn\'t need to have them repeated for cripes sakes.
Let\'s face it -- God is watching while you masturbate. I hope you cleanse yourself everytime at confession. :rolleyes:
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Masturbation is not a sin Ryu, you can breath easy...
Christianty is not meant to be a chore. Its simply a belief that one holds, to believe that Jesus is the messiah, the son of God, and that he died for your sins. Its as simple as that.
God wanted man to live, to explore, and to fulfill their destiny that he has created for you.
Sure, if God says not to do something, then you sure as hell don\'t do it, I mean, he is God, but if you choose to disobey God, then you have to suffer your choice. God gave as a will for a reason. He didn\'t want us to be robots.
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Masturbation is not a sin Ryu, you can breath easy...
Tell that to the right wing extremists who believe it is. Racer, you seem to think that the only religion I am referring to is Christianity.. How simple minded of you.
Sure, if God says not to do something, then you sure as hell don\'t do it, I mean, he is God, but if you choose to disobey God, then you have to suffer your choice. God gave as a will for a reason. He didn\'t want us to be robots.
I like that quote. Do as I say or suffer for all eternity. It kind of sounds like some exclusive club where a bunch of people get together to believe certain things in a certain way can not be compromised or changed when change is exactly what humans bring about every day for centuries. It\'d be pretty funny how God would deal with cloning or how he has delt with war veterans who have passed on. Because MAN feels the cause is just, does God? The freedoms we take for granted were fought for and won by people who are potential sinners and because we live off of their labor, what does that make us? It\'s ironic. We send men to war, to kill for a just cause in man\'s eyes, under the guise that God is with us as we shoot, as we bomb, and as we eliminate. Killing is killing, but we have the choice to throw our weapons down and stand up in the middle of a fire fight, but it\'s man\'s strongest will to survive. How perplexing indeed.
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Originally posted by Ryu
Do as I say or suffer for all eternity.
i say that to Daisy all the time.
ahem
as for the topic at hand, i dont believe in god. at least not right now. i would like to think that maybe, just maybe there is some higher power, but i just cant get myself to actually believe it, or have faith that it exists. maybe down the road something will happen and make me believe, but thats pretty damn unlikely.
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Ryu, Christianity is the faith I believe, so naturally I dissregard other \'religions\' as inferior.
Have you ever heard of \'an eye for an eye\'? Of course God knows that war veterans followed their hearts for the sake of their countries. God knows everyones heart individually.
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Have you ever heard of \'an eye for an eye\'? Of course God knows that war veterans followed their hearts for the sake of their countries. God knows everyones heart individually.
Then what\'s the point of praying, trying to convert others, and buildings places of worship? If God knows, then what\'s the point? He doesn\'t need to be reminded, especially on a Sunday. He would probably rather just kick back, watch some football, and have a little party with moses and friends.
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I\'ve read Shox first post, and Vids first two, that is all...
So I will just say that in my opinion religion is nothing but a saftey blanket to help those who are affraid of being alone in life, get through their days.. it is also a crutch and a scape goat for underachivers, ie; "Yeah I could have gone to that job interview, but if Jesus wants me to be succesful than he will make me so..." Quite frankly I loath religion, however I respect peoples beliefs and as long as they don\'t try to force their religion on me, I will not force my views upon them.
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God knows everyones heart individually.
So what if a person chose not to believe in the Christian god or hold the Christian faith, but performs good deeds? This person volunteers one day out of the week to visit the homeless shelter, signed up for a youth mentor program, and knits scarfs from the beginning of winter until the end. Would this person still end up in hell anyway because of the lack of belief?
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Originally posted by ##RaCeR##
Well, as everyone knows, I am a Christian, and not just one of those dicky ones that goes to church on Christmas day.
I do not classify Christianity as a relgion, more so a way of life. God never intended humans to be bound by laws and traditions, but to have a free will to make their own decisions, otherwise, why would have God given us a will? Gods laws, such as the ten commandments etc are their to protect us. God did not create laws to bind us.
You have interpretted that scripture entirely wrong. Man is not judged by works, but by his heart. God knows we are not perfect, and that we make mistakes. Not everyone has been given the personality/ability to be able to go and preach the gospel on city streets like Jesus did. God has given each and everyone of us gifts that make us unique. I believe as long as we use these gifts to glorify God, then thats all that matters. If you can only lead one person to the Lord in your life, maybe because your shy and timmid, then I believe you are just as high regarded as someone like Billy Graeme etc, who has led thousand to the Lord because thats his calling. Its the way you use you gifts to glorify the Lord that counts.
Exactly how I feel if I were ever to put my beliefs into words, Racer just spoke for me!!!
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Originally posted by Rya
So what if a person chose not to believe in the Christian god or hold the Christian faith, but performs good deeds? This person volunteers one day out of the week to visit the homeless shelter, signed up for a youth mentor program, and knits scarfs from the beginning of winter until the end. Would this person still end up in hell anyway because of the lack of belief?
Hehehehe, one of my favorite arguements to use in a religion discussion. well done.
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And another question:
When Christians convert others into the faith, is it for the good of god or is it for the good of the person who\'s trying to convert others? What if it\'s Jehovah\'s plan for people who don\'t believe to continue to be non-believers?
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Originally posted by Rya
So what if a person chose not to believe in the Christian god or hold the Christian faith, but performs good deeds? This person volunteers one day out of the week to visit the homeless shelter, signed up for a youth mentor program, and knits scarfs from the beginning of winter until the end. Would this person still end up in hell anyway because of the lack of belief?
Where in the Bible does God ask you to go to homeless shelters and feed the needy? Does God ask you to knit scarfs?
NO WHERE.
He asks that you love him and believe that Jesus is the messiah, his son, the saviour. Works are irrelivant to God. Sure, God wants you to use your gifts for the good of man kind, but thats not first priority. By using your gifts, kniting scarfs, feeding the homeless, whatever, you share to them about Jesus, and how he died for them, then you are obeying Gods commands. God wants as little people going to hell as possible. It pains him that people have to suffer, but that choice was made by Adam and Eve in the garden.
To answer your question, yes, the person would go to hell.
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Where in the Bible does God ask you to go to homeless shelters and feed the needy?
NO WHERE.
So you\'re saying that he doesn\'t want us to help out our fellow humankind from the goodness of our own hearts. O_o
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? In that case, would be ok if I just stayed in bed all day doing nothing but eating, sleeping, and being a drain on society along with believing that "Jesus is the messiah," I\'m going to Heaven? Nice deal.
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The figure of GOD exists since the beggining of our intelligence. The fear to the death is so big that Man cannot believe everything is end after dying. Every human group, every society in the Earth has the believe of a superior creature in order to open a window to the existence of another life.
However, we are now in 21th Century and it\'s a little dummy to believe there \'s something after death. God nor life after deadth exist. Sad but true.
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I believe in God..
It\'s really hard to explain myself here, so I\'ll just be reading everyone\'s comments and pretend to reply to them. :laughing:
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Well, I read My posts, SHockwaves who is of course correct, Luke\'s saying how sexy I am and Omen\'s saying that I am right.
Do I have the jist of this thread down?
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I did not read more than 25 percent of this thread, cause i know Dinosaurs still exist, i look at MJ and my point is proven. :D
As for religion, it is nothing more than superstition, and BS. All those dumb-fuk jihad/towel heads killing in the name of "GOD" is just dumb. They kill because they rape donkeys, and sheep.
Religion is whacked.
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Not here to comment, jus to briefly explain my views.
Since the spark of first human intelligence we\'ve had a very special gift that no other animal in all our ecosystem posses.. an imagination. The ability to create a fantasy and then make it real.. either through books, beliefs, or hard work. We can change the world.. mold it.. into what we can imagine. While many people say that "in god\'s image" means we\'re physically like him or belive it means we have free will.. I tend to think that the ability to create our own worlds with our imaginations is the "image of god" that many people talk about. Yet, it\'s also religeon\'s biggest downfall.
Lets assume that there really is a god. He did create us and gave us laws to live by in order to please him. We, through our imaginations, combined with other factors like greed, short mindedness, confusion, free spirits, and such.. multiplyed over the course of tens of thousands of years.. it becomes very likely that those original laws and visions of god have become squewed and warped so far from their original form that no religeon today may even be remotely CLOSE to nailing it. The factioning of all the religeons.. from the vast differences between Buddism to Judeism.. and even within the Catholic religeon as a singularity seems to be proof positive of this. Expecially consider that views of god are molded by the cultures of the people who worship.. and culture is in it\'s entirety a result of human imagination. Compair the Roman Catholic god of 1700 to the modern day view of him to see exactly what I\'m talking about.
Personally, I believe there is a "God".. and a life after death and all that. I\'m not so arrogant as to even begin to speculate who or what he truely is or what he wants from us. All I have to go on is my Roman Catholic family roots. So I use Catholasism as a basis for how I practice and show my faith. I am unorthadox, however, since I reject many of their teaching and replace them with what I feel is right (like not persecuting gay people just because they like to get shyt dycked every once in a while) and by embracing sciences teachings which are by and large testable and provable.
God is so far beyond what we are and what we know.. it amazes me that some people actually think they can put a face to him.. a human face no less. That.. I think.. is about the pinnacle of arrogance. In a way.. god didn\'t mold us in his image.. we molded him in ours to make ourselves feel more important as we drift through this endless abyss on barely a spec of rock orbiting a spark. And personally, if I\'m only a man and already disqusted with the human race.. I can\'t imagine what god thinks of us.. if he even does. Doesn\'t quite give you the same warm fuzzy feeling when you think that we\'re just the illegitamate children of some oblivious entity jerking off as he travels through the galaxy.
There\'s more to my ramble.. but I\'ve got to get taking off. I\'ll spew the rest of it later if anyone cares to hear.
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I am more toward Atheism right now. I believe in more science than religion. It started after I read "Inherit the Wind". Then I started questioning the Bible and compared it with scientific theories. That put it over.
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For my thoughts, there is way more scientific facts that point to a creator then evolution, so I believe in God.
Those who call believing in God ignorant are ignorant themselves for dismissing something that is very valid.
To dismiss religion as a place for people to throw their problems on is wrong. The reason why religion is so popular is because God has put in us a longing for us to worship him.
Get a job, gain wealth, have a family, this seems to give you happiness. It doesn\'t. Only a relationship with God will give you true happiness.
I have to get one thing off my back. People keep saying things in the bible aren\'t scientific so this proves religion false. Who made these miracles? God. God created all things. Shouldn\'t he have power over his creation?
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http://www.apollonius.net/nibiru.html
Read this.Interesting.I ve read a book much much older and has many many many things in common with this.I am amazed by the coincidences.
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Don\'t get me started on creationism, because it will lead to me typing for ages trying to explain horizontal evolution, and the bacteria DNA in human beings...really cool, but kinda confusing at the same time.
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Quick question here(answer preferably from Racer because he seems to know what he\'s talking about).
I believe in God, I\'m not the greatest person in the world, would prefer it if I wasn\'t doing good things, haven\'t gone to church in years....am I going to hell?
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Yes, because you masturbate far too much...Kitten Killer!
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Originally posted by theomen
Don\'t get me started on creationism, because it will lead to me typing for ages trying to explain horizontal evolution, and the bacteria DNA in human beings...really cool, but kinda confusing at the same time.
Lets have a discussion. Tell me about horizontal evolution and bacteria DNA, I have time tonight
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Originally posted by theomen
Yes, because you masturbate far too much...Kitten Killer!
On that note...is it like, a sin to masturbate? And if you do it say once a week or once a day, are you going to hell?
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Originally posted by Clowd
Lets have a discussion. Tell me about horizontal evolution and bacteria DNA, I have time tonight
No one on this site is going to take you up on that, because we have all seen you you "discuss" before.
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Originally posted by shockwaves
No one on this site is going to take you up on that, because we have all seen you you "discuss" before.
Yeah, your right. I called people names and talked about how ignorant they were.
no that was you
:rolleyes:
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No it wasn\'t. I only said you were ignorant. One person, not people. And it was well deserved, ask anyone else who posted in that thread.
Hell, there are people here who like the way I post. Can you say the same thing?
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Originally posted by shockwaves
No it wasn\'t. I only said you were ignorant. One person, not people. And it was well deserved, ask anyone else who posted in that thread.
Hell, there are people here who like the way I post. Can you say the same thing?
After my posts the replys came, your an idiot, etc from you and the others.
People like the way you post? You feel good when you get applauded for saying religion is for idiots and the like?
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Racer,
I find it funny that out of the blue you jump out and start yelling, cult, cult, Mormons are a cult! As if the label that you give us has any significance on whether our church is the one true church or not. Don\'t feel bad though, that is a typical thing to do for someone who doesn\'t understand our religion, but is too arrogant to even attempt to learn about us. You would rather go on thinking we are wrong, when in reality you know nothing about us.
The only info you "know" about us is the info you copied nearly word for word from this site (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Oaks/7728/mormons.html).
Ah well, on with the discussion...
Well, Ironfist, Mormans do NOT believe that Jesus Christ was the messiah, rather just a man who did good works (again, your religions works theory is in full force).
I think you meant to say your ignorance is in full force. Without even attempting to understand what we LDS believe in, you go on bashing us and spreading lies about our beliefs. Come down off of your tower of bigotry, and lets talk face to face about our beliefs.
Mormons DO believe in Jesus Christ, our Lord, our Savior, our Messiah. Without his grace no man can enter heaven. Without his mercy, none of us would ever see God again.
You keep quoting Bible versus yet you don\'t believe everything in the Bible.
Even if I didn\'t believe in everything in the Bible, would that deny my rights to use quotes from the bible? I don\'t understand what significance this has to, well, anything. And if you don\'t mind, would you give me an example of something in the Bible that we don\'t believe in? I\'m sure you can find something, that is, if you know anything about what us Mormons believe.
Whats your views on Joseph Smith?
There we go. Finally a question instead of a blind attack. I believe fully in Joseph Smith. I believe that in around 1820 when Joseph was 14 years old, God, and his son Jesus Christ appeared to him, and told him that none of the churches on the earth were true. To make a long story short, Joseph Smith was ordained as a prophet, and Christ\'s church which had fallen away 12 hundred years ago was restored on this earth. I am not sure exactly what you want to know about my views of Joseph Smith, so if I didn\'t answer your question, ask away.
What do you believe in, The Bible or The Book of Morman?
As the 8th Article of Faith says, "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."
I think this sums your RELIGION and my BELIEFS up quite nicely, and you will see why Mormanism is a form of cult.
....
I read that, and it did not show anything that points to us being a cult. Do we really need to bring the Webster.com\'s definition of "cult" into this discussion; or perhaps you want to try again, and this time actually tell me why Mormons are a cult instead of listing differences between two different beliefs? I\'m not very smart, so you will have to make it clear and to the point.
You are so bound by laws and traditions its not funny.
Care to explain this a little bit? Maybe give an example or two?
If someone is on their deathbed, I think they need to make their peace with God, not just say \'I believe in you\' and then they die. They must trully be repentant of their sins.
So you agree with most Christians that repentance is possible, even at the last second. So how do you explain the verses I posted above in the previous post about work being required?
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There\'s a lot I want to respond to, but because of lack of time, I\'ll have to do it later. I\'ll just quickly respond to a few posts just for the heck of it:
Posted by Ryu:
? In that case, would be ok if I just stayed in bed all day doing nothing but eating, sleeping, and being a drain on society along with believing that "Jesus is the messiah," I\'m going to Heaven? Nice deal.
That\'s exactly what my first question in this thread is referring to. I am eagerly awaiting ##RaCeR##\'s, or anyone else\'s responce to this question.
By Clowd:
For my thoughts, there is way more scientific facts that point to a creator then evolution, so I believe in God.
Hey, what did I say in my first post? "I don\'t want this to turn into a \'Proof of God vs Proof of Evolution\' thread!" We\'ve done that, and it hasn\'t gotten us anywhere.
And about Masturbation, yes, it is a sin. Not necessarily because of the masturbation, but because of the thoughts and/or actions that come with masturbation.
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Originally posted by Clowd
People like the way you post? You feel good when you get applauded for saying religion is for idiots and the like?
Yes, I do. I\'m that much of a praise whore. I live to make see others agree with me :rolleyes:
I\'m just making a point. You get what you\'re trying to say across a lot better if you post it in a way that people enjoy reading.
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Shox, I agree with you
/me waits for Shox to have an orgasm....
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There is only one way. John 3:16
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Laguna Bay II Condo Pattaya (http://pattayaluxurycondos.com)
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Religion is silly, I dont believe in god. :)
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Originally posted by Clowd
For my thoughts, there is way more scientific facts that point to a creator then evolution, so I believe in God.
Scientific facts? Please explain.
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Rya:
So what if a person chose not to believe in the Christian god or hold the Christian faith, but performs good deeds? This person volunteers one day out of the week to visit the homeless shelter, signed up for a youth mentor program, and knits scarfs from the beginning of winter until the end. Would this person still end up in hell anyway because of the lack of belief?
I disagree with Racer\'s response (but unfortunately, the majority of Christians will give the same response that he did), so I figured I should share my religion\'s beliefs on the matter.
I have already shared my religion\'s beliefs of heaven, hell, and the afterlife in a previous thread. So for a quick recap, I believe that there are 3 degrees of heaven:
- Celestial Kingdom (best) -- This is where God is. This is the only degree of heaven where we can progress and become greater beings. This kingdom is likened unto the glory of the Sun.
- Terrestrial Kingdom (middle) -- Jesus Christ is the head of this Kingdom. This is an equivalent to what most Christians believe as heaven. You cannot progress any from this degree, but you will live in happiness for eternity with Jesus Christ. This Kingdom is likened unto the glory of the Moon.
- Telestial Kingdom (worst) -- This is where the sinners go. They will be out of the presence of God and Jesus for eternity. They can not progress. This kingdom is likened unto the glory of the stars. It is said that even this kingdom, the worst of the three, is far better than the earth we live on today.
I do not believe in "Hell" as in a fiery place where sinners will burn for eternity. Instead, I believe that the sinners will go to the Telestial Kingdom. I believe that the righteous people who never accepted Jesus Christ will go to the Terrestial Kingdom. And the righteous people who have accepted Jesus Christ and have been baptized into his church will go to the Celestial Kingdom.
So to answer your question, those people will not go to hell like Racer said they would. Instead they will go to heaven (the Terrestrial Kingdom), just not the highest degree of heaven. They will be extremely happy, but still not as happy as they could be.
When Christians convert others into the faith, is it for the good of god or is it for the good of the person who\'s trying to convert others?
It is for the good of both God and the one going out and bringing people into Christ\'s church, but even more importantly, it is for the good of the person who is being converted. Not only will it make their life better, but it will also increase their understanding of where they came from, who they are, and where they are going next.
What if it\'s Jehovah\'s plan for people who don\'t believe to continue to be non-believers?
Well Jesus Christ wants all of us to come unto him and join his church. But of course there is a time and a place for everything. Sometimes someone might not be interested in the church, and if you try to convert them, they will become even less interested. That is why the person who is going out and bringing people into the church has to stay close to God at all times. They have to listen to the Holy Ghost to know what to do.
I know I might be confusing you, so if you are not sure exactly what I\'m talking about, just ask me to make myself clearer (this is to anyone reading this).
##RaCeR##:
Where in the Bible does God ask you to go to homeless shelters and feed the needy? Does God ask you to knit scarfs?
NO WHERE.
You are saying that since the Bible, a book that is 2000 years old which has been translated uncountable times by MAN, doesn\'t say that we need to go to homeless shelters and feed the needy, God doesn\'t want us to do so? Since when was the Bible the only words of God? Since when has the Bible even claimed to be? And how can you be so sure that it has been translated perfectly throughout the past 2000 years? Also, how do you explain the verses I posted earlier that speak of both faith and works?
To answer your question, yes, the person would go to hell.
So just because a person chooses not to believe in Jesus Christ, they will spend eternity in hell, a place where you believe they will burn forever? That does not sound like a merciful God to me. And it does not sound like the loving God I read about in the Bible.
What about the people who never have a chance to hear about Christ? Are they going to burn in hell for eternity too?
jiggs:
There is only one way. John 3:16
John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
So you believe that all we have to do is believe in Christ, and we will be saved, correct? Then how do you explain the verses that I posted earlier that say that both faith and works is required? (Matthew 7:22, James 2: 17,24,26)
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but even more importantly, it is for the good of the person who is being converted. (it) will it make their life better
How can the converter be sure that converting a non-believer would better their life? It\'s like college. For some people, college would be the path to follow after high school, perhaps because they have the money to or they want to continue their education to ensure a better standing in a career. For other people, college wouldn\'t be the way to go maybe because their family can\'t afford for that student to go. That student would have to join the workforce to help support the family. So who\'s to say that person who goes to college is making the right choice and who\'s to say that person who doesn\'t go to college is making the wrong choice? Or vice versa?
but it will also increase their understanding of where they came from
Wouldn\'t a non-believer know where they came from? That\'s the first question that a person asks his/her parents growing up. Some parents decide to teach their kids the birds and the bees and other parents decide to teach their kids that all children are gifts from God. Different people have different perceptions of where they came from and everyone accepts what they\'re taught. So being converted doesn\'t necessarily ensure that a person will have an even more clarified understanding of their origins.
who they are,
Don\'t most people know who they are? I don\'t think there\'s a day that passes by when a person doesn\'t know who they are. I know for myself, I hear myself repeat who I am. I\'m the daughter of so and so, the sister of so and so. I was born in the United States, but my ethnic origins are elsewhere. I\'m proud to be this and that. This is where I live. These are my hobbies. These are my dislikes. These are my habits. This is who I am and whoever crosses my path and learns to love me should accept me for me and try not to change me. Unless there\'s a different plane of "who we are" that I haven\'t learned yet.
and where they are going next.
Isn\'t that what counselors, parents, and mentors for? To teach us where we\'re going next? To help us along our path? I\'m sure that religion (may it be Christianity or otherwise) doesn\'t need to play a part in finding out where we\'re going.
*note* If I sound like I\'m rambling...I\'m tired.
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One more thing...
Well Jesus Christ wants all of us to come unto him and join his church. But of course there is a time and a place for everything. Sometimes someone might not be interested in the church, and if you try to convert them, they will become even less interested. That is why the person who is going out and bringing people into the church has to stay close to God at all times. They have to listen to the Holy Ghost to know what to do.
Ok, it\'s great that you understand that if you continue to push someone into the Church, they might repell from it even more. So why is it that Mormons (not a specific attack on you or the Mormons in general, just wondering why) find the need to send out church members to schools and have them hang out there for like a couple of days talking to students who have more of an interest in keeping their grades up than to be converted? Isn\'t that a violation of the students\' right to the freedom to believe in what they want to believe, and not to mention the right to an education?
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Ok, general questions for all you Christians out there:
Why is it that people of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam have a problem with each other? Isn\'t it true that, in essence, the three believe in the same deity (plus or minus a messiah)? And isn\'t it true that the three claim that Abraham is the father of their people? (BTW, for you bookworms read Orson Scott Card\'s "Sarah:Women of Genesis"...a really wondefully written account on the life of Sarah in first person. The second book has been released called "Rebekah" and the third one is still being written? That one is called "Rachel.") And wasn\'t Jesus a Jewish and/or Arabic?
BTW, thank you to IronFist for patiently answering my questions intelligibly and thoroughly. I grately appreaciate it.
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Originally posted by ##RaCeR##
To be deadly honest, Mormanism is a form of cult.
You are so bound by laws and traditions its not funny.
Ok...I know I\'m getting annoying posting so many times by myself on this thread, but I know that this is going to really bug me if I didn\'t say something about Racer\'s statement and I wouldn\'t be able to sleep. So last one...
Racer, you mention traditions and laws within Mormonism.
Can\'t you say the same about Catholicsm? Example: They\'re trying to canonize Mother Teresa. She passed away 5+ years ago and didn\'t she just enter the beautification process or is one miracle away from it? Like there are bunch of rules and steps that have to happen before anyone can be a saint. Wouldn\'t you consider the First Communion a tradition? I could have sworn that families hold parties after the church ceremony for the little kids.
Doesn\'t the same go with Judaism? Kids have Bat Mitzvahs, reading the Torah in front of family and friends to prove that they\'ve reached adulthood.
There are way more religions that have traditions and laws within the practice, so I don\'t think that Mormonism should be singled out as having "cult-like qualities." In fact, the word "cult" can be applied to every religion to exist on Earth. When looking at the definition of "cult" it includes "the formal means of expressing religious reverence, religious ceremony and ritual" and "formal religious veneration." So every religion is a cult, only the ones we wouldn\'t want to classify as "cult" are mainstream beliefs.
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Rya:
How can the converter be sure that converting a non-believer would better their life?
Out of all of the questions you asked me, this is probably the hardest one to answer. I thought about it, and the answer seemed so simple, but I just couldn\'t figure out what exactly that answer was and how to express it in words. (I\'m probably not making sense :)) There is no scripture or any quote that I know of that says if you join a church, you will be happier. But I do know that joining Christ\'s church will make you happier. It will make everyone happier. I guess I know this because of the people I\'ve seen join the church, and they way it changed their lives for the better. I have seen their sorrow turn to joy, their fears turn to anticipation, their confusion turn to understanding. I don\'t think there\'s a thing I could say that would convince you to agree with me. It\'s one of those things that has to be seen to be understood.
Wouldn\'t a non-believer know where they came from?
They would think they know where they came from, but they wouldn\'t really know for sure. Like you said, they would believe what they have been taught growing up. You can\'t always trust what other people say, because obviously not everyone on this earth is right about where we came from. So who can you trust? You can\'t trust your family or friends, because they are just telling you what they believe. And you definitely can\'t trust me! I\'m just a name on the internet -- for all you know, I might not even be a Mormon (although I promise you that I am, you still can\'t be 100% sure). There is only one person that you can trust -- God himself. James 1:5 says, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." It is possible for every person on the earth to know that God exists, and to know that Christ died for our sins. And it is possible for every person to know which of the thousands of churches out there is the one true church of Christ. Unfortunately, most people will not take the effort to find out the truth.
Don\'t most people know who they are?
I should have been clearer on that (I had a hard day, so I was pretty tired ;)). It\'s more than just who they are, but why they are. What is the purpose of us being on this world? And if there really is a God, why has he put us here? What does he want with us? What do we need to do to make it back to him? Is there any way to prepare now for our life after death?
To non-believers, these thoughts probably never cross their minds. That is why I feel that it is important for me to share my knowledge of Jesus Christ and his teachings to the world. Their salvation depends on it.
So why is it that Mormons (not a specific attack on you or the Mormons in general, just wondering why) find the need to send out church members to schools and have them hang out there for like a couple of days talking to students who have more of an interest in keeping their grades up than to be converted? Isn\'t that a violation of the students\' right to the freedom to believe in what they want to believe, and not to mention the right to an education?
I am not sure what you are talking about. If this practice is going on in my church, I haven\'t heard about it. Are you talking about the missionaries, or about just regular church members?
Why is it that people of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam have a problem with each other? Isn\'t it true that, in essence, the three believe in the same deity (plus or minus a messiah)? And isn\'t it true that the three claim that Abraham is the father of their people? And wasn\'t Jesus a Jewish and/or Arabic?
This is where your knowledge of other religions surpasses my own. I do not understand where Judaism, Islam, etc came from, or what they believe, so I don\'t know how much of a help I can be to you answering this question. But I\'ll give it my best shot. :) I hope someone with more knowledge than my own will take the time to answer your question.
I\'ll use my church\'s view on the rest of the Christian churches to answer this question. We are grateful for the good teachings that the churches throughout the world teach. Our church is not big enough to be teaching 6 billion people (it\'s only 11 million members big), so every time someone is converted into their church, it is bringing them at least a little closer to Christ (some churches more than others). But we believe, as do many other Christian churches, that there can only be one true church. All of our churches cannot be 100% true if they have slightly different doctrine, and that is where I believe the contention between our churches arises. Either 1. there is one completely true church on the earth, and the rest of the churches are not true, and in turn, are not the church that Christ set up on this earth when he lived on this earth 2000 years ago, or 2. there are no true churches on the earth today. This is getting into the question Ryu asked, "Why do we need a church?" At this time I don\'t think I can answer that question adequately, so I\'ll have to leave it at that until later. :) I hope that explains why different religions may seem to have problems with each other.
BTW, thank you to IronFist for patiently answering my questions intelligibly and thoroughly. I grately appreaciate it.
And thank you for the questions.
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IronFist is definitely a good person to debate religion with. He isn\'t ignorant and has a way to support what he says unlike other members which I won\'t mention. Right clowd? :)
Anyway, there have been so many alterations to the Bible over the years and mistranslations when translating the Bible from Hebrew to other languages. For example, Moses didn\'t part the Red Sea but the Reed Sea. The Reed Sea is dry most of the time and gets filled in by flash floods. That happened with moses. The sea was dry and then a wall of water killed the Egyptians. I don\'t know what the word that was mistranslated was but maybe I can find it.
The plagues that were brought upon the Egyptians could explained. The rivers turned to blood: Quite often, the protists that are in the Nile reproduce at an alarming rate. When they do this annually or monthly (I don\'t remember how often), the pigments of the protists are red, like blood. Frogs: After it rains in Egypt, the frogs come out of the sand to bask in the moisture. Angel of Death: When the grain is put inside the silos, they often get wet from the rains. When this happens (and for the fact that the grain is there for a long time), toxic mold grows and kills or badly screws over the people who eat it. Locusts: Happen all the time to crops. Nothing much more to say. Darkness: Eclipse or something like that. An astroid or something else could have blocked the sun or even the planets themselves. Cattle Disease: Scary but this happens to cattle all the time. Just like Mad Cow disease or Scrapies. They could have just had a plague that was killing the cattle. Hail to Fire: I don\'t know about this Plague. There are three explanations for why Moses knew. Either A) he really did his research to trick the Pharoh or B) he really was communicating with God. C) Coincidence. I believe in choice C.
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IronFist is definitely a good person to debate religion with. He isn\'t ignorant and has a way to support what he says
This statement I\'ll definitely agree with.
But I do know that joining Christ\'s church will make you happier. It will make everyone happier. I guess I know this because of the people I\'ve seen join the church, and they way it changed their lives for the better. I have seen their sorrow turn to joy
Ok, this statement...from what I gather from what you\'ve said, you\'ve only seen happiness occur in a person when someone joins your church. That\'s one way of becoming happy. I can say that I\'ve seen that myself, an example of a friend of my sister who rediscovered spirituality. I can tell that she\'s way happier now.
However, like I said, that\'s one way of becoming happy. There was a program on the Discovery Channel that shows these misfit, mischevious boys who could be on their way to juvenile hall. Their parents sent them to boot camp. For regular people, boot camp is a pretty harsh image. I thought that until I actually watched the program. Sure these kids have to wake up at 4 in the morning to do drill training and then get to class dead-tired at 7. Then they have synchronized lunch meals with a drill instructor in their face throughout the meal. And then more schooling before they can go back to the bunks to do homework. On top of the training and the schoolwork, they have to keep their beds clean, and they have to be well-groomed. They can\'t have contact with their parents except through letters. And when the programs were over and they got to see their parents for the first time since they got to boot camp, you can tell that those kids were happy and they admit it. Their parents even said that they\'re looking at a totally different kid and that their kid looks happy.
I myself have found happiness through meeting and getting to know Ryu. Comparing to before and after him, I can feel the difference in the way I view the myself, and the world. For myself and others like me who have found happiness in getting to know someone, why would we need to find further happiness when we\'re already in bliss?
their fears turn to anticipation,
I\'ll agree with you on the fact that church-life or spirituality can take away fear. I\'ll say that it\'s a medium to morph fear into anticipation. But why is there the phrase "God-fearing?" Human nature is to avoid being in fear, so why would a non-believer want to invite one type of fear into their lives? Fear is a state of mind. Example: some people are scared of the dark and some people aren\'t. Why is it that not everyone is scared of the dark? Why is it that not everyone isn\'t scared of the dark? Some people get over their fears. There\'s a program for people who are scared of creepy crawlies by exposing them to insects. After the exposure with bugs, those people now understand that there is nothing to be scared of. That their fear was only made up by their creative minds. So fear can be rid of by other mediums, other than having the belief in God.
their confusion turn to understanding.
What confusion? Some people are not confused about life or human existance. Unless you\'re referring to another type of confusion.
They would think they know where they came from, but they wouldn\'t really know for sure.
Can\'t this statement be applied to Christians too? Christianity is constantly being questioned by non-believers as other religions and sciences are constantly being questioned by Christians.
There is only one person that you can trust -- God himself. ...It is possible for every person on the earth to know that God exists, and to know that Christ died for our sins. And it is possible for every person to know which of the thousands of churches out there is the one true church of Christ. Unfortunately, most people will not take the effort to find out the truth.
How can a person know that God exists when the followers don\'t take the efforts in finding out the truth? And the perception of truth is different for everyone. Example 1: Ryu thinks that the two most popular gaming consoles are the PS2 and the GameCube. Other people on this forum would disagree. Example 2:Some people think that the reason why California suffered a power crisis last year was because some bozo at the energy plant wasn\'t distributing the energy equally throughout the state. Others think that it was caused by supporters of Bush who found a way to steal the power and give it to wealthy Texas oilers because California didn\'t vote for Bush. (there was a rise in income for those oilers shortly after the power crisis.) Example 3: Games should be blamed for school violence. Parents should be blamed for school violence.
Let\'s say someone really did find the truth of which church is the true church and proof was presented? What if that truth shows that a good majority of Christians were part of the wrong church? How do you think they would react? I would think there would be some skepticism even if there is proof.
And how can a person really trust God when his existance is questioned? And the only source a non-believer were to get information of his existance is through God\'s followers. And like you said, You can\'t always trust what other people say, because obviously not everyone on this earth is right about where we came from.
It\'s more than just who they are, but why they are. What is the purpose of us being on this world?
The question of why we\'re here can be answered in other religions and sciences too. There are some beliefs that we are the children of a form of deity. Other beliefs say that we\'re just another part of nature and that through the belief of the gods we can be in balance with nature. In science, it is said that we exist because it\'s our natural instinct to survive and to procreate, therefore we are the fulfillment of our parents\' instinctive duties. Again, this bring us back around to the perception of truth. There are so many "truths" that there can\'t be a sure answer of which one is the "true truth."
And if there really is a God, why has he put us here? What does he want with us?
Do Christians know the answer to this? I hear that the only time they would find out the answer is when they\'re dead and meeting God himself. Isn\'t that a little late to find out this answer and revel in knowing it?
To non-believers, these thoughts probably never cross their minds.
But these thoughts have crossed a non-believer\'s mind at one point or another. In other religions, these questions are answered through explanations in their own faith. To athiests, there\'s a completely different answer.
That is why I feel that it is important for me to share my knowledge of Jesus Christ and his teachings to the world.
Why not just leave the non-believers to rot in hell? You\'re going to be saved, so is the rest of the truly faithful community. I mean, for the non-believers it\'s their loss, right? Like, too bad for them. (I\'m not intentially wording this to be mean. I meant to word this in an educational sense. :p)
Their salvation depends on it.
Define salvation. The definition, in a church-sense, that I was given was "to be saved from original sin."
I am not sure what you are talking about. If this practice is going on in my church, I haven\'t heard about it. Are you talking about the missionaries, or about just regular church members?
Yes, missionaries. Why at school? I thought that our government wants to separate the church and state.
And while my thinking process is just running amuck, why do Mormons send out only young men? The people who come to my school can\'t be much older than myself. And why don\'t women get sent out? Unless there are and I haven\'t seen any.
And another question on conversion. A non-believer is invited to a church party by a friend who attends the church. The non-believer attends the party, because he/she thought it would be nice to get to know a little more about his/her friend\'s personal life. So why is it that there are some Christians who find it necessary to insult the non-believer by asking "So what makes you happy in your direction-less life?" I thought the idea of converting someone is to show how wonderful a community the converter would be joining. This situation actually happened to my sister. IronFist, I don\'t really expect you to answer this. I know you can\'t speak for other people. I would like your input though. :)
there is one completely true church on the earth, and the rest of the churches are not true, and in turn, are not the church that Christ set up on this earth when he lived on this earth 2000 years ago
Historically, isn\'t the real church that follows Jesus is the Catholic church? It\'s the first of the Christian churches after Jesus\' death and some people (ie Martin Luther, Henry VIII) just so happened to have a problem with it the Catholic church and decided to change the way God is worshiped.
Ok, I think I\'ve asked enough questions to make the Pope\'s head spin! I\'m really sorry if some of the things that I\'ve written seem a little weird, hard to comprehend, or even attacking Christianity. Please note that I didn\'t intend to make it come out that way; I just want to expand my knowledge. Again, many thanks to IronFist for your patience and answers.
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You know what i think. It doesn\'t matter what i think, or anyone else. Cause in the end, will it matter... Maybe to some it does, others it does not.
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Hey what’s it called when you leave the church (like what are you? Unreligious? I live in a protestant country)?
Here we got to pay “church taxes” and I never go to Church or even believe in god so why should I (or my family) pay a Church tax?
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I hate topics like these... :)
Anyway, I\'m a Christian. I\'m even going into the ministry as a youth leader. I\'m pretty heavy in what I believe/my way of life. I got to a Southern Baptist Church, however; I\'m not too big of traditions. I just follow God\'s Word and try to be like Jesus. So, yeah, I\'m ready to be bashed for being a Christian.
- nOt
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Originally posted by nOt
I hate topics like these... :)
Anyway, I\'m a Christian. I\'m even going into the ministry as a youth leader. I\'m pretty heavy in what I believe/my way of life. I got to a Southern Baptist Church, however; I\'m not too big of traditions. I just follow God\'s Word and try to be like Jesus. So, yeah, I\'m ready to be bashed for being a Christian.
- nOt
We won\'t bash you unless you make stupid and ignorant remarks like some others *cough* clowd *hack*
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Originally posted by Titan
Scientific facts? Please explain.
http://www.psx2central.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=22481&highlight=origin+of+life
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I want to cry. Hey, I\'m a mod now. I could lock this thread.. hmmmmm.....
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Those aren\'t scientific facts, they are scientific THEORIES. A difference. The origin of life is still a mystery and there is no explanation. Thats how religion got so successful and accepted. You said in your post that it was 1:1followed by 113 zeros. Its still a chance and a chance that it could have happened. Maybe it was that 1 time. Ever think about that? You have 1:10000 chances in becoming rich at Vegas (number is made up but my point is still the same), does it mean your aren\'t going to get rich? Still a chance. How do you know that that chance actually happened billions of years ago? You don\'t. That\'s not the only theory either. This one is believable too. Billions of years ago, there was an asteroid that hit the oceans and the asteriod had bacteria that could withstand the intense heat (there is bacteria that can survive in space and heat when coming through the atmosphere). Life then evolved from there.
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Mathematicians agree that 1 to a number with a power over 50 is improbable, this is a power of 113
I just want to ask, why does what I say make everyone mad and angry? Is it because hearing the truth stings? So you lash out against me? Like when Jesus exposed the scribes and pharisees, they said he had a demon.
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Originally posted by Clowd
Mathematicians agree that 1 to a number with a power over 50 is improbable, this is a power of 113
I just want to ask, why does what I say make everyone mad and angry? Is it because hearing the truth stings? So you lash out against me? Like when Jesus exposed the scribes and pharisees, they said he had a demon.
But religion isn\'t exactly right. Oh wait, it has to be because you believe it. Religion is an explanation on how life began and will end. That\'s all. It wasn\'t started to be taken so literally.
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Originally posted by Videoholic
I want to cry. Hey, I\'m a mod now. I could lock this thread.. hmmmmm.....
I think that would be a good idea. The second Cloud gets involved with a relgious thread, it goes bad.
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If it weren\'t for clowd and his pushing theory down our throats as fact this thread would go fine.
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Rya:
from what I gather from what you\'ve said, you\'ve only seen happiness occur in a person when someone joins your church.
I never said that I only have seen happiness occur in a person when they join my church. I agree with you that happiness can be found in many things. Whether it\'s by following Christ, or by meeting a really nice person in your life. I think we can agree on this though -- from a scripture found in the Book of Mormon (a book that we LDS believe to be scripture), "...wickedness never was happiness." (Alma 41:10) When we are following Christ\'s teachings, and doing the "right" things, we will be happier people than if we are doing the wrong things.
I myself have found happiness through meeting and getting to know Ryu. Comparing to before and after him, I can feel the difference in the way I view the myself, and the world. For myself and others like me who have found happiness in getting to know someone, why would we need to find further happiness when we\'re already in bliss?
I can\'t wait until I can find a girl who I can marry and grow old with. I agree that that is happiness. I don\'t know how close you and Ryu are, if you are just really good friends, or if you are actually close enough to consider marriage (I don\'t think it\'s any of my business either ;)), but I do know that in a lot of people\'s beliefs, after this life that kind of happiness will be gone. According to many people, after this life we either cease to exist (those are the beliefs of people who don\'t believe in God), or we go to heaven where we will be happy, but we won\'t be married to our loved one anymore. Those are the two main theories I have heard, and I\'m sure there\'s many many more out there. But I want to share a third theory, my churches theory: After this life we can still be married to our spouse, and live and grow with them for eternity. Now that is true happiness!
So I guess to answer to your last question, "why would we need to find further happiness when we\'re already in bliss?" It\'s because that kind of happiness is not forever. And only through Christ\'s church can it be. (remember, this is what my church believes. I state it as fact because I truly believe it to be fact, but I understand that you do not believe the same. Please do not take offense if I have said something that you do not agree with.)
But why is there the phrase "God-fearing?" Human nature is to avoid being in fear, so why would a non-believer want to invite one type of fear into their lives?
The non-believers need not fear unless they are not living a worthy life. If they are living a worthy life, then there is no reason for them to fear god. If they are living a sinful life, then they have every reason in the world to fear god, and have every reason in the world to not want to believe in him.
So fear can be rid of by other mediums, other than having the belief in God.
True, true. And one can be afraid of things on this world even if they do believe in God. I agree with you there.
What confusion? Some people are not confused about life or human existence. Unless you\'re referring to another type of confusion.
And some people are. Sure, many people have their beliefs about life, but many people are confused on some aspects of it also. Whether they are unsure about what to believe all together, or they just have a tiny thing that just doesn\'t quiet make sense. I\'m not saying that I know all the answers, or that I know every single detail about prelife, life, and afterlife. What I am saying is that because of the knowledge I have, I know what is important. I know what I need to know. (for example, I don\'t know if we evolved from monkeys, or if we were put here directly from God with the snap of the fingers. But I do know why we were put here, which is a million times more important.)
How can a person know that God exists when the followers don\'t take the efforts in finding out the truth?
They can\'t. If one doesn\'t ever make an effort to know if God exists, he/she will never know until it\'s too late. They will believe they know God exists based on what others have told them, but they won\'t know for themselves.
And the perception of truth is different for everyone.
No matter what the perception of truth is, the truth will always be the same. There are thousands of different religions on the world today teaching many different things about who and what God is, but even with all of these different beliefs, God is still who he is. No matter what we say about him, he will always be the same.
Let\'s say someone really did find the truth of which church is the true church and proof was presented? What if that truth shows that a good majority of Christians were part of the wrong church? How do you think they would react? I would think there would be some skepticism even if there is proof.
Well most Christians already agree that most Christians are in the wrong church, they just can\'t agree on which church is the right one. :) If there was proof of a church being the one true church of Christ, then there would definitely still be skepticism. They would pick apart the proof, or disregard certain aspects of the proof, and make their religion still be the true church. Most of them would not believe that they were wrong, and would do everything they could to show why that proof really isn\'t proof. I know this because I have seen it with the proof that has been found to support my church -- but that\'s an entirely different argument altogether. :)
And how can a person really trust God when his existence is questioned?
If one truly wants to find the truth, then they have to accept the possibility that there really is a God. Otherwise they wouldn\'t be searching for the truth at all, but instead they would be searching for just something to believe in.
And the only source a non-believer were to get information of his existence is through God\'s followers.
That is why you have to get the information from the followers (who you can\'t trust), then ask God if it is true.
Again, this bring us back around to the perception of truth. There are so many "truths" that there can\'t be a sure answer of which one is the "true truth."
But if God does exist, then there can be a sure answer. God has said that he cannot lie, so if you ask him, his answer will be completely true.
Continued...
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Originally posted by shockwaves
I think that would be a good idea. The second Cloud gets involved with a relgious thread, it goes bad.
How did I make this thread go bad? What did I say that made it go bad? Or are you just being petulant and irritable?
Videoholic you say I try to push theories down your throat. How? I just say I think there is more evidence that points to a creator in my opinion and now Im forcing something on you? They say what evidence and I show them and Im forcing it on you?
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...continuation from above.
IronFist said: And if there really is a God, why has he put us here? What does he want with us?
Rya Said: Do Christians know the answer to this? I hear that the only time they would find out the answer is when they\'re dead and meeting God himself. Isn\'t that a little late to find out this answer and revel in knowing it?
With this question, you can\'t group all of the Christian churches into one category. Because some Christian churches believe in what you said, while others believe something different. My church believes that this life is a test, and also a preparation period for the next life to come. Here on this life we have certain things we needed to have done (like getting a physical body), and things we have to do (like baptism, and eternal marriage in a temple). Because no unclean thing can dwell with God, this life is like a test. If we are worthy in the end, if we pass the test, we will be able to live with God once again. If we are not worthy, we fail the test and will never be with our Heavenly Father again.
IronFist said: To non-believers, these thoughts probably never cross their minds.
Rya said: But these thoughts have crossed a non-believer\'s mind at one point or another. In other religions, these questions are answered through explanations in their own faith. To athiests, there\'s a completely different answer.
Good point. I guess that even non-believers need to find their place and purpose in this world.
Why not just leave the non-believers to rot in hell?
Because of a lot of reasons. One major one is because you all are my brothers and sisters. I believe that I knew you before we were born on this world (as a spirit in the spirit world) and that I cared for you all then. I do not want to go into the next life only to find out that one of my favorite brothers or sisters didn\'t make it because I failed to teach the gospel to them. That would brake my heart. Even though you all are just names on the internet, I love each one of you as brothers and sisters.
I mean, for the non-believers it\'s their loss, right? Like, too bad for them.
Definitely not. Maybe Racer believes that no work is required to make it to heaven, but I don\'t. If I know the truth, and I fail to share it with others because I am shy (and yes, I am shy), then I will be held accountable. I will not make it into heaven if I sit around vainly basking in my own knowledge (the knowledge that I wouldn\'t even have if God hadn\'t blessed me with it).
Define salvation. The definition, in a church-sense, that I was given was "to be saved from original sin."
I guess I would define salvation as "Making it to the highest degree of heaven, and in turn, having eternal life."
Yes, missionaries. Why at school? I thought that our government wants to separate the church and state.
All I can say is, strange. I have never heard of that. Missionaries usually just go around talking to people on the streets, or go knocking door to door. Are you sure these missionaries were/are from the LDS church?
why do Mormons send out only young men?
I don\'t know the official reasons why, so I\'ll just say what I think. 1. Young people going door to door preaching the gospel are a lot more, how should I say it, "convincing" than a 40 year old man would be. I think people would be more intimidated if 40 year old fat guys were trying to teach them about the church. :) With first impressions meaning so much these days, it just wouldn\'t be as effective. 2. At the age of 19-21, we are pretty much in our prime physically. It does take a lot of strength to be able to do what they do every day for two years. 3. At such a critical time in their lives, it is helpful for them to serve the Lord and have the Holy Ghost as a constant companion. It helps them put a priority on their lives.
And why don\'t women get sent out? Unless there are and I haven\'t seen any.
Girls do get sent out.
A prophet of our church in the 1970s (I think) commanded that all worthy young men should go on a mission at the age of 19. It is not a commandment for the women to do that, but many of them choose to anyways. Boys can go on a mission from the age of 19 up until they\'re 26. They serve for 2 years. Girls can go on a mission when they turn 21 up until they die. There is no age limit for them (if I recall correctly). They serve for a year and a half. Then married couples who are really old (I don\'t know how old, but usually after they retire) can go on missions together. I don\'t know how long their missions are.
And another question on conversion. A non-believer is invited to a church party by a friend who attends the church. The non-believer attends the party, because he/she thought it would be nice to get to know a little more about his/her friend\'s personal life. So why is it that there are some Christians who find it necessary to insult the non-believer by asking "So what makes you happy in your direction-less life?" I thought the idea of converting someone is to show how wonderful a community the converter would be joining. This situation actually happened to my sister. IronFist, I don\'t really expect you to answer this. I know you can\'t speak for other people. I would like your input though.
My input: People like that should be ashamed of themselves. All that does is drive people away from their church. They give a bad reputation to all of the people in that religion, and religions similar to it. They are ignorant, and refuse to even accept that other people have grown up differently than themselves.
Historically, isn\'t the real church that follows Jesus is the Catholic church? It\'s the first of the Christian churches after Jesus\' death and some people (ie Martin Luther, Henry VIII) just so happened to have a problem with it the Catholic church and decided to change the way God is worshiped.
My church believes that when Christ died, his church was completely wiped off the face of the earth. His apostles were killed (most of them in horrible ways), and the priesthood, and the different keys of that priesthood were no longer on the earth. The remaining members of the church apostatized and formed their own churches. Many Christian religions (like the Catholics if I recall correctly), will agree that the church apostatized, but they say that the priesthood was still carried on through the past 2000 years by worthy priests. Of course they are not able to actually show this. My church believes that from about 500 AD, to 1830 AD, there was no true church on the earth. Then Christ\'s church was restored on the earth in 1830, under the name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
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Originally posted by Clowd
How did I make this thread go bad? What did I say that made it go bad? Or are you just being petulant and irritable?
Videoholic you say I try to push theories down your throat. How? I just say I think there is more evidence that points to a creator in my opinion and now Im forcing something on you? They say what evidence and I show them and Im forcing it on you?
Yes, you are. You argue theories, and often baseless ones as facts. You ignore evidence detracting from your opinions, and have an attitude that you are superior to everyone else here, and you insult and belittle others who argue much more effectively and logically than you do in the first place.
As for the thread, you\'re right Vid. Why not just say that Clowd can\'t participate then? You could always delete his posts.
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Originally posted by shockwaves
Yes, you are. You argue theories, and often baseless ones as facts. You ignore evidence detracting from your opinions, and have an attitude that you are superior to everyone else here, and you insult and belittle others who argue much more effectively and logically than you do in the first place.
As for the thread, you\'re right Vid. Why not just say that Clowd can\'t participate then? You could always delete his posts.
All good well and besides the point.
I have done nothing negative to this thread. Until I do so you have no reason to delete my posts.
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Fine, then don\'t. Also, don\'t refer the discussion to prior threads which were closed for a reason.
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Then maybe we should just stop reinacting threads as a whole.
Part 1. Get a good religion topic stirred up
Part 2. Clowd gets involved with theories that everybody hates him for
Part 3. Everybody dismisses Clowd as an idiot and argues everything he has to say.
Part 4. Get the thread closed after it grows to an astronomical size
Part 5. Repeat at a later date
Seems to work, apperantly.
See Yuz.
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Clowd - stop reincarnating old threads in new ones. Leave your views and "Scientific facts" out of here and just plain stop posting in this thread or I\'ll remove your ability to view off-topic altogether.
Titan - stop coaxing clowd into reposting his nonsense. We don\'t need to hear about it again. The more you instigate it, the more he\'ll want to post.
Shockwaves - like Titan, just stop posting about Clowd or his views. It just makes him want to reply even further.
As for this thread, out of respect for Rya and Ironfist, about the the only two people having a meaningful discussion, I will allow this thread to remain open. Anymore outbursts concerning clowd or matters of which came first, the chicken or the egg, will be deleted and their off-topic privilidges removed for a week. That is all for now. I consider this matter closed. If anyone has a problem, PM me; the box is empty.
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You know, no matter how much people debate this. There\'s never gonna be a TRUE answer. It\'s all about personal preference. You either believe in god, or you don\'t. Once someones made up there mind. It\'s pretty hard to change it. :)
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I have to agree with souly on this one. The human mind has a tendancy to be stuborn. Once someone is into religion, they can only dismiss it through their own free mind. No one can force them what to believe. We can\'t force IronFist or clowd into atheism. They can only chose with their own free will. You can only give reasons for what the other person says could be false and visa versa. But hey, its still fun argueing :)
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Well I didn\'t start this thread to prove a belief, or force a belief on someone else. I started it so we could openly discuss the different beliefs of people on this forum and why we believe what we believe. I also started this thread to challenge other members of this forum, and to be challenged myself, with questions pertaining to our beliefs. I hope this thread can continue as it was meant to be, and not branch off into thousands of petty arguments about who started what, who\'s forcing what, who\'s being ignorant about what, etc.
Now shall we continue? :) (Hey Racer, I haven\'t seen you for a while; still waiting for how you interpret the verses that I posted.)
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Religion is shit, ... now lets move on.. who likes pizza?
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To IronFist:
When we are following Christ\'s teachings, and doing the "right" things, we will be happier people than if we are doing the wrong things.
I absolutely agree with this statement! When we do the right things, we will be happier. But, what must be realized is that not only are Jesus\' teachings good, philosophers before and after him have good teachings as well and thus, righteous inspiration doesn\'t necessarily come from Christ exclusively. The philosophy of Buddhism states that "any thougts, speech or actions that are rooted in giving, love and wisdeom and thus help clear the way to Nirvana are good." Non-Christian religions have been found to preach goodness suh as Wiccan. Each spell is like the embodiment of the universal Golden Rule (I say universal because it\'s found in all cultures and no matter how it\'s worded it still means the same thing): Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
I can\'t wait until I can find a girl who I can marry and grow old with. I agree that that is happiness. I don\'t know how close you and Ryu are, if you are just really good friends, or if you are actually close enough to consider marriage (I don\'t think it\'s any of my business either ),
Let\'s just say that my relationship with Ryu is close enough to the point that I can pick his nose without feeling embarrassed or grossed out, and we know each other\'s likes and dislikes so well that we can use the facts against each other in stupid, silly arguments. :p
[Ed. Note: She\'s telling the truth. I actually have a picture of her gleefully picking my nose. What a Sicko. :p -Ryu]
but I do know that in a lot of people\'s beliefs, after this life that kind of happiness will be gone. According to many people, after this life we either cease to exist (those are the beliefs of people who don\'t believe in God),
I don\'t believe in God, yet I don\'t think that we\'ll cease to exist. Here\'s my thoughts on this subject: We all have a spirit. My theory is that it\'s much like what Christians view as a soul, only we\'re not damned from the beginning. Let me switch gears a little bit. In science, there are a lot of things that work with magnetics. We\'ve got the magnetic fields of planets and the sun. There\'s a magnetic force between the planets and the sun. There\'s regular magnets that we have on our refridgerators. =P Both natural and manmade things have magnets.
So with this in mind, going back to the subject of souls, our lives are magnetised to one other person on this Earth because we are part of the natural things of the universe, of Earth. Some people will find that person and some people won\'t, but it\'s all a matter of how much effort that was put into the search. For those who divorced, it\'s a matter of not attaching themselves to the other person the right way (like if you put magnets together on their midsections, they move all funny or they were attached with a piece of paper in between). Those who get married a second time have strong magnetism and can attract many more people (so you can guess how strong of a personality Elizabeth Taylor has! :D)
When we die, it\'s just our hollow bodies that die. It\'s like a computer -- Computers are bought, they are used, and they they are worn out. There could be parts that are still usable in it, but it\'s mostly gone; Too dusty, too warn out. So you can extract those missing parts and throw away the rest. Our bodies get worn out so our souls are naturally extracted from the organics. The organic part is returned to nature because we are a part of it. Our soul gets recycled in the next life that is to be born. Then we start the quest in finding our magnetic partner. So happiness doesn\'t fade. The game of looking for the one we\'re meant to be with starts over again, so the fun always stays.
[Ed. Note: Does that mean it\'s game over for us since our search is over? So far, I like the ending if it is.-Ryu]
So I guess to answer to your last question, "why would we need to find further happiness when we\'re already in bliss?" It\'s because that kind of happiness is not forever.
Sure it can. In your theory, it can because it\'ll continue onto heaven and in my theory it can because it\'ll be renewed after each meeting. Think of a couple -- Their relationship brings happiness. There\'s a huge argument leading to poor Mr. Guy to sleep in the dogless doghouse because Ms. Girl has had enough of Mr. Guy. Later, Mr. Guy and Ms. Girl make up. But that argument doesn\'t tarnish their relationship forever. Their relationship continues to be happy. Happiness is happiness, even if it doesn\'t last forever. The fact that it existed is permanent.
If they are living a worthy life, then there is no reason for them to fear god. If they are living a sinful life, then they have every reason in the world to fear god, and have every reason in the world to not want to believe in him.
You\'re right, a person living a worthy life has no reason to fear god, but when that worthy person doesn\'t believe in god, there\'s nothing to worry about. It\'s like if a person doesn\'t believe in vampires, then he doesn\'t have to worry about putting up garlic or getting his blood sucked because there\'s nothing to worry about. And I think that a person who isn\'t living a worthy life has every reason to fear everything including god, life, society, a rat, etc. :p
(for example, I don\'t know if we evolved from monkeys, or if we were put here directly from God with the snap of the fingers.
I agree with everything you said before this quote. I can understand that people just straight up need an answer to questions as we\'ve been discussing and they\'d go searching for God or some other source to find this answer.
But the quote I have put above, this is a silly question for me to ask (kinda like does Adam and Eve have belly buttons), do you think, that since God created animals before humans, he might have taken the monkey and the 24 hours on the 6th (?) day to evolve the monkey into Adam, leaving the traces of pre-primate remains to piss us off so he can get a good laugh? Or maybe he was in the process of making man when the wooly mammoth crossed his field of vision and created a creature in the shape of a human (arms, legs, face structures), but made it hairy? Maybe he swore a little after that and then decided to cool off for a day and continue his work the next day when he did make Adam correctly? If this offended you, I apologize. During one winter break party Ryu was holding, Ryu and I asked our Christian friend questions like these and found them amusing, but when I asked questions like these to another Christian friend, he was offended and I\'m not sure how well you\'d take it, Ironfist. :confused:
No matter what the perception of truth is, the truth will always be the same. There are thousands of different religions on the world today teaching many different things about who and what God is, but even with all of these different beliefs, God is still who he is. No matter what we say about him, he will always be the same.
I\'ll agree that Christianity, as a whole, has one God that is the same, but everyone looks at him differently. But maybe one of the other religions that existed before Christianity has truth in it too. There\'s a reason why there are religions that are older than Christianity still in existance today.
To be continued...
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a continuation...
That is why you have to get the information from the followers (who you can\'t trust), then ask God if it is true.
Isn\'t that kinda like a double standard? ;) What if one were to go searching for God but decides not to follow a church? Is that allowed? O_o
God has said that he cannot lie, so if you ask him, his answer will be completely true.
How will you know you got an answer if no mortal can hear his voice without having his head implode (that\'s what I heard can happen).
With this question, you can\'t group all of the Christian churches into one category. Because some Christian churches believe in what you said, while others believe something different. My church believes that this life is a test, and also a preparation period for the next life to come. Here on this life we have certain things we needed to have done (like getting a physical body), and things we have to do (like baptism, and eternal marriage in a temple). Because no unclean thing can dwell with God, this life is like a test. If we are worthy in the end, if we pass the test, we will be able to live with God once again. If we are not worthy, we fail the test and will never be with our Heavenly Father again.
I\'ve never heard this before. Thank you for the enlightenment. :D
I guess that even non-believers need to find their place and purpose in this world.
It\'s human nature to find a place and purpose in the world. The Native Americans have long believed that they are part of Mother Nature and that every creature is a brother or sister. Buddhists believe that even insects and spiders have the same right to live as humans do.
One major one is because you all are my brothers and sisters. I believe that I knew you before we were born on this world (as a spirit in the spirit world) and that I cared for you all then. I do not want to go into the next life only to find out that one of my favorite brothers or sisters didn\'t make it because I failed to teach the gospel to them. That would brake my heart. Even though you all are just names on the internet, I love each one of you as brothers and sisters.
So do you think that the Pope Pius XII embraced Hitler as his brother even though Hitler acted against one of the Ten Commandments of not to kill? And how about Osama bin Laden? Did Christians fail him too?
And as broters and sisters in this world, why don\'t we see massive groups of Christians helping out the homeless? Why are there still homeless people looking for a doorway to sleep in for the night when, as a sibling, it would be logical to take the homeless person into one\'s own home and help that person back on his feet. With the Christians as the majority of the world\'s population, we shouldn\'t even see a homeless person on the street if we were to act as a family.
And as siblings, wouldn\'t you want what\'s best for me? Let\'s say that different beliefs are different schools of teachings. I want to go to UC San Diego because I think it\'ll suit me well. You or any other Christian wants me to go to UC Berkeley. Why would you want me to go to UC Berkeley when I know I\'m not going to fit in because of what I believe? I don\'t want to have protests interrupting my path of going to my next class. I don\'t want to go to a school that has standards that I can\'t possibly agree with. Wouldn\'t a sibling accept and respect a sister\'s decision despite how much a sibling thinks it\'s a bad choice?
Their salvation depends on it. ...I guess I would define salvation as "Making it to the highest degree of heaven, and in turn, having eternal life."
So taking from what you\'ve said, a person who doesn\'t believe in heaven doesn\'t need salvation.
Are you sure these missionaries were/are from the LDS church?
Yup. Pretty sure. I was stopped by one missionary at school on my way home (or my way to class?) and he introduced himself and had a name tag. I can\'t remember if he had said that he was from the LDS. But after a couple of weeks, some missionaries, who were from the LDS, were going door to door in my neighborhood and asked if I had spoken to one of their representatives. I questioningly mentioned my school\'s name to see if they know of anybody who was missionary-ing (?) there and he mentioned the name of the dude I spoke to at school.
1. Young people going door to door preaching the gospel are a lot more, how should I say it, "convincing" than a 40 year old man would be. I think people would be more intimidated if 40 year old fat guys were trying to teach them about the church. With first impressions meaning so much these days, it just wouldn\'t be as effective.
Wouldn\'t this be considered selling the religion? Trying to make it look attractive so people would join up? Kinda like "Hey our guys look cute; wanna date him? Join our church!"
3. At such a critical time in their lives, it is helpful for them to serve the Lord and have the Holy Ghost as a constant companion. It helps them put a priority on their lives.
I\'ll have to admit that this is really good training in testing and practicing your faith! :D BTW, define the Holy Ghost. I ask a bunch of people and I get this weird answer from everyone I ask.
My church believes that when Christ died, his church was completely wiped off the face of the earth. His apostles were killed (most of them in horrible ways), and the priesthood, and the different keys of that priesthood were no longer on the earth. The remaining members of the church apostatized and formed their own churches. Many Christian religions (like the Catholics if I recall correctly), will agree that the church apostatized, but they say that the priesthood was still carried on through the past 2000 years by worthy priests. Of course they are not able to actually show this. My church believes that from about 500 AD, to 1830 AD, there was no true church on the earth. Then Christ\'s church was restored on the earth in 1830, under the name of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Again, extremely enlightening! I never knew this before. :)
Again, IronFist, much thanks for your input and sharing your knowledge. =) I was hoping to make this response a little light hearted and I hope you (or any other Christian for that matter) don\'t get offended by what I said.
To Soul: It\'s all about personal preference. You either believe in god, or you don\'t. Once someones made up there mind. It\'s pretty hard to change it.
I agree with your statement...it\'s all a matter of preference.
And back to IronFist: I started it so we could openly discuss the different beliefs of people on this forum and why we believe what we believe.
I agree with this statement...education-GOOD! *thumbs up*
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Lets discuss religion.
Some religion believes the Earth was made in 6 24 hour days. This is not true simply because of this scripture at Genesis 2 : 4
"This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day* that God made earth and heaven.
*bold added
As you can see the entire creation of everything is summarized as a \'day\' or a span of time. Not 24 hours
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If God created Earth in 6 days, what created God? Was he an alien that was doing an experiment to see how life turned out? Is he a supreme human that made us after him? Is he dead? Is he alive? Did he create all the stars and galaxies and planets in other star systems? Is he the one who gave us fire? (don\'t expect to answer these, just something to ponder :) )
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What caused the big bang? (dont expect to answer this, just something to ponder)
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Hydrogen gas and other materials were under so much pressure that it burst :) Like a dam or when you sqeeze a tube of toothpaste. Things have a tendancy of blowing up.
Don\'t expect to answer these, just something to ponder :)
I said that ^ so you don\'t have to post. You could think about that if you want. You don\'t have to be such an ass about it.
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Originally posted by Titan
Hydrogen gas and other materials were under so much pressure that it burst :) Like a dam or when you sqeeze a tube of toothpaste. Things have a tendancy of blowing up.
I said that ^ so you don\'t have to post. You could think about that if you want. You don\'t have to be such an ass about it.
Where did the hydrogen gasses come from? What compressed them?
I dont have to think about what you said. The answer to those questions is quite simple. God said I am the alpha (beggining) and the omega (end) before God there was nothing, just God. See you were created to be able to concept a beginning, while your creator had none. So you think everything has a beginning. I think some evolutionists even say that the Universe had no beginning? You on the other hand have no answer, just what you speculate MUST have happened since a creator is \'unacceptable\'
Your just like the scribes and pharasies who didnt care about the answers they were asking Jesus for but just wanted to find some fault in him. I dont even know why I bother answering you.
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Everything has to have a beginning. Without a beginning, there will be no middle and no end. BTW, hydrogen was probably fused together through reactions while it was in space.
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I almost made the mistake in making this a creation vs evolution thread lets just stop talking about it now.
I dont believe in a trinity because Jesus says in the bible the father is greater then I am. Also he prays to God. How can he pray to himself?
The holy spirit is not a 3rd being, rather it is God\'s active force. John 1:1 says the word was a god, not a capital God but a lower case god. Angels are gods. Jesus is a god. But there is one God.
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Who created GOD? and who created the entity that created GOD? hmmmmmm we can keep going... and we can ponder how illogical all of this god and religion talk is. :nut:
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Originally posted by ##RaCeR##
Masturbation is not a sin Ryu, you can breath easy...
I disagree.
Just the thought of immorality is wrong. So masturbation is wrong.
toxical: please do not make this a creation vs evolution thread. What you said can just as easily be said about the big bang theory so it is very irrelevant to bring that up.
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I disagree.
Just the thought of immorality is wrong. So masturbation is wrong.
So I guess you don\'t masturbate ;)
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This is not true simply because of this scripture at Genesis 2 : 4
Weren\'t the scriptures written by man, translating what God wanted to pass on?
I dont believe in a trinity because Jesus says in the bible the father is greater then I am. Also he prays to God. How can he pray to himself?
The holy spirit is not a 3rd being, rather it is God\'s active force. John 1:1 says the word was a god, not a capital God but a lower case god. Angels are gods. Jesus is a god. But there is one God.
If the holy spirit is an active force of God then wouldn\'t that mean that the holy spirit is a part of God? And since Jesus is of God, wouldn\'t that mean that Jesus is a part of God? Therefore creating the Trinity?
Just the thought of immorality is wrong.
Of course the thought of immorality is wrong. That is a true statement without the mention of religion.
However, the KKK openly express their Christian faith, yet they go out and kill African Americans and Jewish Americans. How do would you, Clowd, explain their fate when they meet the Creator (if ever)? I would like your input on this.
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Originally posted by Rya
Weren\'t the scriptures written by man, translating what God wanted to pass on?
Yes, God inspired men to write down what God knew we needed to know. My point is just that God didn\'t create everything in 6 24 hour days.
If the holy spirit is an active force of God then wouldn\'t that mean that the holy spirit is a part of God? And since Jesus is of God, wouldn\'t that mean that Jesus is a part of God? Therefore creating the Trinity?
We all came from God. I\'m not exactly sure how he made the Universe but one way would be that he changed his energy into matter, which can be done, the atomic bomb proved this. Energy can be changed into matter and matter into energy.
Of course the thought of immorality is wrong. That is a true statement without the mention of religion.
However, the KKK openly express their Christian faith, yet they go out and kill African Americans and Jewish Americans. How do would you, Clowd, explain their fate when they meet the Creator (if ever)? I would like your input on this.
Just because they say they have Christian faith doesn\'t mean they are Christian. Besides, TRUE Christians know that racism is wrong.
I am not God, I do not know if he will forgive them or not. It is not a place for any human to hand down judgement.
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SO where did god come from? He had to have came from somewhere no?
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Rya:
But, what must be realized is that not only are Jesus\' teachings good, philosophers before and after him have good teachings as well and thus, righteous inspiration doesn\'t necessarily come from Christ exclusively.
But even before Christ was on this earth from the years 0 to 33 AD, God was still talking to the people on the earth through prophets. I believe that all of our understanding of good came from God. Ever since the beginning of time he has been teaching his children right from wrong. Even if a religion doesn\'t believe in God, if they are teaching good principles, I believe their principles originally came from God.
I don\'t believe in God, yet I don\'t think that we\'ll cease to exist. Here\'s my thoughts on this subject:
...
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing. But I don\'t think I would like having to find a girlfriend over and over and over very much. Finding one just once is hard enough! :D
You\'re right, a person living a worthy life has no reason to fear god, but when that worthy person doesn\'t believe in god, there\'s nothing to worry about. It\'s like if a person doesn\'t believe in vampires, then he doesn\'t have to worry about putting up garlic or getting his blood sucked because there\'s nothing to worry about.
Good point.
IronFist said: (for example, I don\'t know if we evolved from monkeys, or if we were put here directly from God with the snap of the fingers.
Rya said: I agree with everything you said before this quote. I can understand that people just straight up need an answer to questions as we\'ve been discussing and they\'d go searching for God or some other source to find this answer.
I never understood why finding out if we came from monkeys or not was so important to so many people. That kind of stuff just isn\'t important to me. But to each his/her own I guess. :)
But the quote I have put above, this is a silly question for me to ask (kinda like does Adam and Eve have belly buttons), do you think, that since God created animals before humans, he might have taken the monkey and the 24 hours on the 6th (?) day to evolve the monkey into Adam, leaving the traces of pre-primate remains to piss us off so he can get a good laugh?
Anything\'s possible. And I do believe that God has a great sense of humor, so it wouldn\'t surprise me. :) But there are so many theories out there, it\'s best to not even worry about that. Oh, and I don\'t get offended very easily, so no need to worry.
So do you think that the Pope Pius XII embraced Hitler as his brother even though Hitler acted against one of the Ten Commandments of not to kill? And how about Osama bin Laden? Did Christians fail him too?
Hmmm...maybe we did fail them. We should have been out teaching them about God\'s plan before they turned into psycos. But we have to accept that we won\'t be able to teach everyone. And we won\'t be able to make everyone believe. Many many people are not going to make it to heaven. It\'s hard to accept, but it\'s the way it is.
And as broters and sisters in this world, why don\'t we see massive groups of Christians helping out the homeless? Why are there still homeless people looking for a doorway to sleep in for the night when, as a sibling, it would be logical to take the homeless person into one\'s own home and help that person back on his feet. With the Christians as the majority of the world\'s population, we shouldn\'t even see a homeless person on the street if we were to act as a family.
Well a large portion of the Christians out there don\'t believe in serving others. For the Christian\'s out there who actually do believe in serving others, you have to take into consideration that we all have our problems. We are not perfect. Sometimes we would rather take a nap than go out and help someone. I am trying harder to be a good Christian, but I still struggle at times.
In 2 months, I\'m going to live on my own back in Salt Lake City, Utah. Maybe I\'ll invite a homeless person to come and stay with me. He could be my cook. ;)
I don\'t want to go to a school that has standards that I can\'t possibly agree with. Wouldn\'t a sibling accept and respect a sister\'s decision despite how much a sibling thinks it\'s a bad choice?
It\'s hard to just walk away when you truly believe you have something that will change someone\'s life for the better, but if the person is certain that they don\'t want to go to "my school", then I have to let them do what they want. God gave us all free agency, and I don\'t want to go against God by trying to force something upon someone.
So taking from what you\'ve said, a person who doesn\'t believe in heaven doesn\'t need salvation.
Today I was actually thinking about the definition I gave you, and I came to the realization that I gave you a wrong response (I never have been good at giving definitions of words :)). The response I gave you, "Making it to the highest degree of heaven, and in turn, having eternal life" is what you get because of salvation. It is not salvation itself, but instead, it\'s what comes after salvation. Let me try again. I believe that salvation is "the process of overcoming both sin and physical death." Jesus Christ payed the price for both of those things (my church believes he payed for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane, and payed for our death when he died on the cross.) Salvation is possible because of him.
Yup. Pretty sure. I was stopped by one missionary at school on my way home (or my way to class?) and he introduced himself and had a name tag. I can\'t remember if he had said that he was from the LDS. But after a couple of weeks, some missionaries, who were from the LDS, were going door to door in my neighborhood and asked if I had spoken to one of their representatives. I questioningly mentioned my school\'s name to see if they know of anybody who was missionary-ing (?) there and he mentioned the name of the dude I spoke to at school.
I still think it\'s weird that they did that. Hopefully it doesn\'t happen too often, because I can see how it could become distracting/annoying.
BTW, define the Holy Ghost. I ask a bunch of people and I get this weird answer from everyone I ask.
This is another one of the many ways in which my church differs from the majority of Christian churches. As you may or may not know, most Christians believe in the "Trinity" (although it is noted that Clowd does not. :)) The Trinity comprises of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit) all combined into one "being". This is God to them. Jesus is actually just a part of God. The Holy Ghost is also just a part of God.
My church believes that God the father, his son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings. God, and Jesus Christ both have physical bodies which look similar to ours. The Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit is just that, a holy ghost or holy spirit. :) The Holy Ghost has many purposes. Because God and Christ have physical bodies, it would be impossible for them to dwell inside of a person. That is one major thing the Holy Ghost does. It is able to to be with the worthy and guide them in everything they do.
How will you know you got an answer if no mortal can hear his voice without having his head implode (that\'s what I heard can happen).
Well that\'s kind of true...well, sort of. :) It is impossible for a normal mortal human to be in the presence of God and live. They would burn up because of the glory of God (kind of like how the wicked will be burnt up when Jesus Christ comes again at the Second Coming.) But it is known that prophets in the Bible have seen God, and have talked to God, so there must be a way to do so without dying. I can\'t remember exactly, but I think that if God shows himself to you, your body is first changed into a body that can stand up to the glory of God. But that\'s a little off topic...
In most cases God doesn\'t actually answer your prayers with his voice, but instead has the Holy Ghost answer them. Because the Holy Ghost can live inside of you, he can speak to you from inside. When you ask God a question, you will be able to "feel" the answer inside of you.
Wouldn\'t this be considered selling the religion? Trying to make it look attractive so people would join up? Kinda like "Hey our guys look cute; wanna date him? Join our church!"
Not at all. I would consider it looking your best so you don\'t scare people off. :) The missionaries are not the ones who do the converting anyways, they only give the message. The Holy Ghost is the one who tells the people that what the missionaries are teaching is true.
Let\'s just say that my relationship with Ryu is close enough to the point that I can pick his nose without feeling embarrassed or grossed out
Now that would make a great sig! :D Ryu would probably ban me if I put it as my own sig though. lol.
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Originally posted by luckee
SO where did god come from? He had to have came from somewhere no?
Where did the first atom, particle, element, etc come from? It had to come from somewhere no? :)
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Thats not what I asked.
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Originally posted by IronFist
Where did the first atom, particle, element, etc come from? It had to come from somewhere no? :)
Probably by some kind of fusion. You know you could ask these questions forever? Something formed from something else and that probably goes back so many years it will make your head spin :sconf:
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Why did they have to come from somewhere? Couldn\'t they have just always been there? That\'s no less realistic than saying that God has always been there.
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Eveything has a beginning though. Without a beginning, there\'s no middle and no end. And without those, there\'s no existance.
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You might as well ask which came first, the chicken, or the egg in which case no one will have the answer because no one CAN know. It\'s pointless to argue such things which is why people are discussing fanatical and interesting beliefs. :)
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Perhaps there is no middle or end. Perhaps it is always continuing, for all time.
And tell me, if something needs a beginning and an end to exist, how do you explain the circle?
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To Clowd:
Yes, God inspired men to write down what God knew we needed to know. My point is just that God didn\'t create everything in 6 24 hour days.
Could there be a possiblity that the people who wrote the scriptures made a typo? It happened with the description of Moses. What I\'m saying is that man is fallible, he has faults. I\'ll agree that Christians believe in a God who is without mistakes, but his followers have tripped many times over.
True, your quote doesn\'t mention that the day consists of 24 hours, but it doesn\'t say that it isn\'t 24 hours. How can man years ago, translating the word of God, grasp the concept of a day that\'s not 24 hours when that\'s the only type of day that he could understand. I mean, it was hard to grasp that the solar system is heliocentric and not geocentric back then.
Rya:If the holy spirit is an active force of God then wouldn\'t that mean that the holy spirit is a part of God? And since Jesus is of God, wouldn\'t that mean that Jesus is a part of God? Therefore creating the Trinity?
Clowd:We all came from God.
Ok, I can understand that Christians believe in the Holy Trinity. I might have a hard time grasping the minute details of it, but I get it. However, I\'m having a really hard time understanding why you don\'t believe in the Holy Trinity. Can you please clarify? :)
I am not God, I do not know if he will forgive them or not. It is not a place for any human to hand down judgement.
I don\'t expect you to play God. I was asking for your opinion on the matter. An opinion, in some cases, is a judgement. Your quote: Just because they say they have Christian faith doesn\'t mean they are Christian. Besides, TRUE Christians know that racism is wrong.
seems to already pass the opinion about the KKK. And don\'t tell me that you\'re the one sole person on this planet who doesn\'t think that making a good first impression is a big deal. :p
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how do you explain the circle?
You gotta put the pencil on the paper at the beginning and when you lift your pencil off the paper at the end. Unless you\'re cheating and you\'re using a rubber stamp! :p
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Rubber stamps rule :)
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To IronFist:
Even if a religion doesn\'t believe in God, if they are teaching good principles, I believe their principles originally came from God.
I\'m having a hard time understanding this. From what I understand about Christianity is that a Christian has accepted God into his heart and can hear God\'s will. And a person who hasn\'t accepted God can\'t hear his will. So how can a morally good person still know what God wants when that person can\'t hear him?
But I don\'t think I would like having to find a girlfriend over and over and over very much. Finding one just once is hard enough!
:p hehehehe That’s very true!!! But when you find the one, and you’re asked if you’d do it all over, I bet you’d say that you would. :D
Here’s another part of my theory on life: Those who abide by the laws of nature (live, love, be agreeable with society) will be rewarded with whatever afterlife they’d choose. Christians would get heaven, evolutionists will cease to exist (unless they want something else), and reincarnationists (?) will reincarnate. Criminals will get punished by either hell or reincarnate as a bug. So everyone gets what they deserve.
I never understood why finding out if we came from monkeys or not was so important to so many people. That kind of stuff just isn\'t important to me. But to each his/her own I guess.
You know…you are quite right! It’s just monkeys! They’re probably thinking, “Stupid humans!” That’s probably why they’re chucking dookie at us at the zoo! Mystery solved!!! :p
For the Christian\'s out there who actually do believe in serving others, you have to take into consideration that we all have our problems.
This can also apply to nonbelievers. Problems arise that take up time from finding God (or any other deity for that matter) or to find any spirituality at all.
In 2 months, I\'m going to live on my own back in Salt Lake City, Utah. Maybe I\'ll invite a homeless person to come and stay with me. He could be my cook.
Sounds like a plan! {off-topic}Good luck with the move. Beware of movers, they can jip you of money. Beware of U-Hauls, they have been known to break down while driving. Both of these stories I saw on 20/20. {/off-topic}
Jesus Christ payed the price for both of those things (my church believes he payed for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane, and payed for our death when he died on the cross.) Salvation is possible because of him.
I’m a little unclear about this. Can you clarify please? :confused:
it would be impossible for them to dwell inside of a person. That is one major thing the Holy Ghost does. It is able to to be with the worthy and guide them in everything they do.
Finally! Someone who can explain the Holy Ghost into words! Thank you ever so much!! :D
God, and Jesus Christ both have physical bodies which look similar to ours.
Why is there a need for two physical beings and just one spiritual? Why can\'t there be one physical and one spiritual? Or two physical and two spiritual?
But it is known that prophets in the Bible have seen God, and have talked to God, so there must be a way to do so without dying.
So who was talking to the prophets? God himself or the Holy Ghost?
Not at all. I would consider it looking your best so you don\'t scare people off. The missionaries are not the ones who do the converting anyways, they only give the message. The Holy Ghost is the one who tells the people that what the missionaries are teaching is true.
I see! Unfortunately, there are some missionaries who go about this the wrong way. I understand that your church send out missionaries to spread the message. But there are actually churches who send out kids to bring friends to the church, who aren\'t already Christian. Then they show that friend how fun it is to be with a church and then sneak something by that friend (like a contract saying that they\'ll convert and having that friend sign it without letting him/her read the small print). I saw this on 20/20. Some Jewish kid signed that paper and didn\'t realize that he had agreed to convert. He was a few weeks before his Bar Mitzvah (sp?) and he said that even after the situation between himself (and family) and that church have been clarified, he didn\'t feel right taking part of his own Bar Mitzvah. (I\'m sorry I went a little off topic there. It\'s just that after watching that segment, I was just stunned by what missionaries would do just to get converts.)
Now that would make a great sig! Ryu would probably ban me if I put it as my own sig though. lol.
Or maybe I should put that as my avatar! hehehe. :p And you can only imagine what I pulled out of there! :p j/k!
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Originally posted by shockwaves
Why did they have to come from somewhere? Couldn\'t they have just always been there? That\'s no less realistic than saying that God has always been there.
That was exactly my point. Luckee asked where God came from (a question that obviously none of us can answer). So I dicided to use the same logic and ask where the first bit of matter came from. If matter has always existed, then you can\'t throw out the idea that God always existed as well. If matter had a beginning, then you run into the problem of figuring out how it was created. If God had a beginning, we run into the same problem.
Like Clowd said, we can not comprehend the idea of infinity -- no beginning, no end. And we don\'t even know if we need to, because we don\'t know if things really are infinite, or if they were just started up somewhere in time. Like Ryu said, it\'s best that we don\'t even worry about such things.
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It\'s a lot easier to think of infinity if you think of it in relation to something you can understand. For example, a circle. Take a random point on the circle, and trace around the circle forwards. Will you ever get to the end? Then trace around it the other way. Will you ever find a beginning? Perhaps that\'s all that time is: a cycle. Perhaps when the world is destroyed, and the the universe expands and then collapses in on itself, or whatever it does, everything will start again, until eventually we reach the same point on this circular pattern that we are in now.
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Originally posted by shockwaves
Perhaps there is no middle or end. Perhaps it is always continuing, for all time.
And tell me, if something needs a beginning and an end to exist, how do you explain the circle?
I never thought of it like that. I mean, time is forever but where did time start? Matter can go so far back that no human will ever figure it out. Oh and for a circle, O<-----That point is beginning and end, is it not? (seriously though, I dont\' know :confused: )
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where did time start
Time didn\'t start until humans measured it. We created the concept of seconds, minutes, hours, days, etc. Animals don\'t need to know what a second is. We probably don\'t need it either. Exactly what is time, when you really think about it.
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A unit used to measure the change in things, basically.
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Rya:
I\'m having a hard time understanding this. From what I understand about Christianity is that a Christian has accepted God into his heart and can hear God\'s will. And a person who hasn\'t accepted God can\'t hear his will. So how can a morally good person still know what God wants when that person can\'t hear him?
I was just saying that because God has been teaching his children (through prophets) good from evil ever since the beginning of the world, that even the churches that don\'t believe in God are teaching principles that originally came from God. To answer your question, that person probably already knows what God wants from him (to live a worthy life). If God wants more of him though, then God would need to contact him. God would probably do one of three things, 1. Talk to the person himself (this is the least likely thing). 2. Have the Holy Ghost kind of give the person a push in the right direction until the person sees what God needs him to do. 3. Have a person who does believe in God go talk to the person who doesn\'t. The person who does believe in God would probably be being led by the Holy Ghost in order to find the person who doesn\'t believe in God and talk to him.
This can also apply to nonbelievers. Problems arise that take up time from finding God (or any other deity for that matter) or to find any spirituality at all.
I have found that the more often I spend serving others and trying to get closer to God, the easier it becomes to find time to do so. Even with the many things we have to do every day, we can still find time to get more spiritually "in tune".
Sounds like a plan! {off-topic}Good luck with the move. Beware of movers, they can jip you of money. Beware of U-Hauls, they have been known to break down while driving. Both of these stories I saw on 20/20. {/off-topic}
All I\'m bringing with me is some clothes, my computer, and a blanket or two. :) I don\'t think I\'ll need a mover, although I still don\'t know how I\'m getting my computer to Utah (because I\'m probably going to fly there).
IronFist said: Jesus Christ payed the price for both of those things (my church believes he payed for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane, and payed for our death when he died on the cross.) Salvation is possible because of him.
Rya said: I’m a little unclear about this. Can you clarify please?
I\'ll try to. As I have said before, one reason we were all sent down to this world is to get a physical body. There are two things wrong with the physical body though. 1. It can be tempted and can give in to temptation. In other words, we sin. 2. At the end of our life, it dies. With these two problems we can not make it to heaven. Because God is all-knowing, he knew this would prevent his children from making it back to him. So he sent his first born spirit child (Jesus Christ) down to this world to pay the price for our sins and our death. In order for Christ to be able to pay for all of our sins and our death, he had to live a perfect life. So his whole life he withstood temptation, and in the end was worthy to take upon himself the sins of the world.
At the age of 33, the night before he was crucified, he went into the Garden of Gethsemane with his apostles. He told his apostles to wait for him while he went deeper into the garden and prayed to his father. This was the event that Jesus\' whole life was building up to. This was the event that we all were depending upon. At this time, Jesus took upon himself the sins and sorrows of every man and woman who had ever been, or would ever be born. The burden was so great, the sins were so numerous, the pain was so painful, that Jesus Christ bled from every poor of his body. He prayed to his father, "And he said, Abba [translated as "daddy"], Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt." It hurt so bad, and he was so scared of the pain, that he was having second thoughts about taking upon himself the sins of the world. Fortunately for the salvation of us all, he went through with it.
Following this, he was captured, horribly beaten, and then crucified. Three days later, he was resurrected. This event is what was needed in order for us to overcome our physical death. Because of this, we will all be resurrected after we die. We will all have physical, immortal bodies after we die.
I don\'t know if that helped you understand any better, so if you still don\'t understand, ask about a specific thing that you want me to explain. I will do my best to do so.
Why is there a need for two physical beings and just one spiritual? Why can\'t there be one physical and one spiritual? Or two physical and two spiritual?
- Why God the Father has a physical body: Our church believes that God used to be in the same situation we are in right now. He used to be a human, and used to have his own God (his father). We believe that the righteous people on this world who get baptized into Christ\'s church AND get married in the temple will also have this opportunity.
Remember how we believe in the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial kingdoms of heaven? Well in the highest kingdom, the Celestial kingdom, there are three different "degrees". The lowest degree is for the people who were baptized into Christ\'s church, and lived a worthy life, but never got married in the temple. They become angels -- messengers for God. The middle degree\'s purpose is still unknown to us at this time. The highest degree is where the people who were baptized into Christ\'s church, who lived a worthy life, and who got married in a temple "for time and all eternity". These people, husband and wife, are able to progress from there and eventually become Gods. Many churches think this belief is blasphemous; that it makes God look weak or makes us mortals look stronger than we are. To them I say, if you had children, wouldn\'t you want them to have everything that you have?
So God has a physical body because a long time ago he was born on a planet just like we have been. Before he was born, he was just a spirit just like we were.
- Why Jesus Christ has a physical body: Before Jesus was born on this earth, he was also a spirit just like we were. He is our spirit brother. He has a physical body now because he was born on this world.
- Why the Holy Ghost is a spirit: I have told you what the Holy Ghost\'s purpose was. That is why it is needed for him to be a spirit.
So that is why things are the way they are. Those three beings make up the "Godhead." I also want to mention that there is also a Heavenly Mother. She also has a physical body. We don\'t talk about her much though out of respect (God doesn\'t mention her in the Bible because he doesn\'t want people to take her name in vain like they do with his.)
So who was talking to the prophets? God himself or the Holy Ghost?
I\'m sure the prophets were being guided by the Holy Ghost in just about everything they did, but there were times when the prophets actually did talk to God. Like when God talked to Moses when giving him the 10 commandments.
He was a few weeks before his Bar Mitzvah (sp?) and he said that even after the situation between himself (and family) and that church have been clarified, he didn\'t feel right taking part of his own Bar Mitzvah. (I\'m sorry I went a little off topic there. It\'s just that after watching that segment, I was just stunned by what missionaries would do just to get converts.)
I know this is kind of off topic, but what is this "Bar Mitzvah" you speak of? I\'ve never heard of it (I don\'t know too much about the Jewish faith).
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Originally posted by shockwaves
It\'s a lot easier to think of infinity if you think of it in relation to something you can understand. For example, a circle. Take a random point on the circle, and trace around the circle forwards. Will you ever get to the end? Then trace around it the other way. Will you ever find a beginning? Perhaps that\'s all that time is: a cycle. Perhaps when the world is destroyed, and the the universe expands and then collapses in on itself, or whatever it does, everything will start again, until eventually we reach the same point on this circular pattern that we are in now.
[sarcasm]Oh yeah, that\'s much easier! *head explodes* ;)
I can understand the circle analogy, but I just can\'t comprehend infinity with respects to the universe.
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Originally posted by shockwaves
A unit used to measure the change in things, basically.
Define the "things" that are "changing."
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To answer your question, that person probably already knows what God wants from him (to live a worthy life).
Still a tad bit confusing, but it\'s ok. There are some things that some of us never get. Like how males always ponder why females are hard to understand (we\'re not really).
Even with the many things we have to do every day, we can still find time to get more spiritually "in tune".
True, all we need to do it make time. But even when we do find that time to do something, it\'s usually taken up in taking care of finances, fixing the roof. People can\'t even find time to exercise or eat right anymore.
All I\'m bringing with me is some clothes, my computer, and a blanket or two. I don\'t think I\'ll need a mover, although I still don\'t know how I\'m getting my computer to Utah (because I\'m probably going to fly there).
Toilet paper, towels, a pan, a kettle, a pot, utensils, a cup, a plate, a bowl, an umbrella...list can go on! PM me if you need a complete list. I just finished helping my sister move to Southern California a few months ago. :D
God used to be in the same situation we are in right now. He used to be a human, and used to have his own God (his father).
If God had a God of his own, shouldn\'t we be reverring that higher God because it is higher than the God who\'s being worshipped now? And if God was born human once, then can\'t that mean that one of the humans today be changed into a God himself or herself?
Heavenly Mother
Speaking of women, why is it that women are portrayed so vilely in the Bible? Why hasn\'t the church tried to correct this image of women? I thought that as the children of God, we are all equal in his eyes. Eve was emphasized as the cause of human damnation, why isn\'t Adam blamed just as badly?
God doesn\'t mention her in the Bible because he doesn\'t want people to take her name in vain like they do with his.
Why doesn\'t God just smite the ones who do use his name in vain. Like zap him on the spot? The person who does use it in vain is going against one of the 10 commandments.
I know this is kind of off topic, but what is this "Bar Mitzvah" you speak of?
It\'s not really off topic when it\'s on the subject of religion. You wanted this thread to be a discussion on religion and Judaism is a religion. :D
A Bar Mitzvah, if I\'m spelling it correctly, is the Jewish celebration of a boy\'s coming of age. It usually occurs around their 16th birthday. The boy studies and and learns to understand the Torah, the Jewish Holy Scripture (which I\'m sure you know is the Old Testament). During the Bar Mitzvah, family and friends gather to hear the boy read the Torah. After successfully doing so, he is prolaimed a man and from that day forth he is to be treated as an adult. Then the family and friends have a big party celebrating. The girl\'s version is called a Bah Mitzvah (sp?). I\'m not sure what happens for girls because I heard that girls aren\'t allowed to read the Torah. (NOTE: for those who are Jewish on the forums, please feel free to correct me. I\'m not sure if I relayed this information correctly. What I wrote here is what I\'ve been told.)
You know, I\'m surprised that many Christians don\'t know much about Judaism (please, don\'t take this as a bash on you IronFist). It\'s where Christianity originated from. Wasn\'t Jesus himself Hebrew before he was baptized? The Bible mentions a lot about the Hebrews in the OT. I think Judaism is also where Islam originated from too.
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Originally posted by Rya
Define the "things" that are "changing."
Mainly the change in the physical properties or the motion of any physical objects that can be seen and measured by those doing the measuring (humans).
Originally posted by IronFist
[sarcasm]Oh yeah, that\'s much easier! *head explodes*
I can understand the circle analogy, but I just can\'t comprehend infinity with respects to the universe.
Well, some scientists do believe that the universe is currently expanding outwards from a point, and once it expands enough, it will collapse back in on itself. After this, it will expand and collapse again and again. Perhaps each cycle of expanding and contracting is like the cycle around a circle. Perhaps after a certain amount of time, after the universe had expanded and contracted, and then begun expanding again, it will reach the point it\'s in now. We will once again have people just like those present right now. Someone exactly like me will be typing a message just like this, and someone like you reading it. The cycle of time will continue along its circular path just as it had been doing in previous cycles, with everything happening in time the exact same way, until the universe once again expands and contracts fully, and the cycle starts over.
The problem is that people think of time in linear terms, and we are used to things like that having a starting point and an ending point. You don\'t have to think about it that way. Time, most likely, is a relative thing.
I\'m not saying this is the way that things are, before someone jumps at me with reasons why the universe couldn\'t be behaving that way, but I think it is a possibility, based on the relatively small amount of knowledge I have on the subject, and it serves my point.
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Originally posted by Rya
Define the "things" that are "changing."
my hair, and its going away...:(
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Rya getting back to what you said about the KKK being Christian and killing Jews? Wasn\'t Jesus a Jew? This shows they are not Christians. How can you hate Jews when the one you believe is God\'s son is a Jew? You hate the ones race your religion is named after?
What I meant by we all came from God is that God created Jesus first, then created the entire Universe through Jesus. I do not believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are 3 equals in one. This comes from Greek philosiphers like Plato. If there is a trinity that is EQUAL why does Jesus say the father is greater then I? Why would he pray to himself? Did the creator of the Universe die? Why does Jesus tell us to only give worship to God?
My quote classifys all 6 creative \'days\' as one \'day\', thus eliminating the idea of 24 hour days. How can 6 days equal 24 hours? He must have been talking about something like \'in my grandfather\'s day\' which would classify any amount of time, like 1920-1960.
Ironfist where is it in the Bible that says Jesus and God had human bodies? I understand that God said he would make man in his image but he was meaning they had freewill, not like the animals who just lived on instinct.
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Originally posted by shockwaves
Mainly the change in the physical properties or the motion of any physical objects that can be seen and measured by those doing the measuring (humans).
Physical properties and the motion of physical objects...example being...?
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To Clowd:
My quote classifys all 6 creative \'days\' as one \'day\', thus eliminating the idea of 24 hour days.
Ah, I understand now. I was just looking at the quote in my copy of the Bible (the New International Version; I don\'t know what version you have), and that line that you posted says something different.
"This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created." Genesis 2:4
Maybe that was something close to what you wanted to get across. That there is no indication of a 24 hour day, but just that this is what happened before man popped onto earth. :p
God created Jesus first, then created the entire Universe through Jesus
Whoa! Wait! I thought that God created the universe, created life on earth, and then created man. Man screwed up for years and then Jesus was born. Or do you mean something different?
I do not believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are 3 equals in one.
Why aren\'t they equal? From what I understand, God is the Father of humanity, Jesus is the Brother of humanity, and the Holy Spirit is the Inspiration (if I understanded IronFist correctly) of humanity. They all have equal purpose in a Christian\'s life. I don\'t see people making a bigger (or as big) a deal about the Angels Michael or Gabriel like they do about the Trinity.
why does Jesus say the father is greater then I
Oh yeah, like Jesus is going to say that he\'s greater than his father. Even an athiest wouldn\'t say "I\'m greater than God." :p And if you think on the father-son relationship, when a son is an adult, the father starts to look upon the son as an equal.
Why would he pray to himself?
Have you ever heard or said the following? "Oh come on, (insert own name here). I know you can do this. It\'s easy. Have faith in yourself. You\'ve done this once, you can do it again. Come on..."
the KKK being Christian and killing Jews? Wasn\'t Jesus a Jew? This shows they are not Christians.
I absolutely agree with your statement here. They\'re killing people of the same ethnic group that the founder of their religion was born into.
But they believe that they are true Christians, just like every Christian believes that his/her church is the true church. And going back to the issue of immorality, who is to judge what\'s moral and what\'s immoral when only God should be the one who passes judgement?
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Rya:
Still a tad bit confusing, but it\'s ok. There are some things that some of us never get. Like how males always ponder why females are hard to understand (we\'re not really).
I guess I just don\'t understand your question. Here\'s what you should do, reword your question so any idiot could understand it, then dumb it down a little more. Even I should be able to understand a question like that. :)
True, all we need to do it make time. But even when we do find that time to do something, it\'s usually taken up in taking care of finances, fixing the roof. People can\'t even find time to exercise or eat right anymore.
But many people can find time to exercise and eat right. My Dad has been eating right for the past couple years, and he runs 2-3 miles every other morning. He also has a 50+ hour/week job. I don\'t think the problem is not having enough time. I think it\'s that most Americans are lazy. :)
If God had a God of his own, shouldn\'t we be reverring that higher God because it is higher than the God who\'s being worshipped now?
Who do you respect and look up to more, your father, or your grandpa? I know this answer will vary from person to person, but I would think that in most cases people look up to their father more; the person who gave life to them, the person who raised them (along side of the mother).
And if God was born human once, then can\'t that mean that one of the humans today be changed into a God himself or herself?
Yes, my church believes that. I even wrote it in my last post (you must have just not noticed it). Read the first bulleted section again.
Speaking of women, why is it that women are portrayed so vilely in the Bible? Why hasn\'t the church tried to correct this image of women? I thought that as the children of God, we are all equal in his eyes. Eve was emphasized as the cause of human damnation, why isn\'t Adam blamed just as badly?
Well in many Christian churches, people are baptised right when they are born because they believe that they are born sinners because of Adam\'s sin. I don\'t believe in the practice of infant baptism, but this does show that both Adam and Eve are blamed, not only Eve like you may think.
Why doesn\'t God just smite the ones who do use his name in vain. Like zap him on the spot? The person who does use it in vain is going against one of the 10 commandments.
Because that would take away their free will. Free will is very important to God. In fact, because God gave us free will is the reason we needed Jesus Christ to make it back to heaven (because we can choose to sin). If we didn\'t have free will, this world would be completely different. (we would be drones, obeying every command given to us.)
Oh, and thanks for the info about "Bar Mitzvah." I have one more question about it. Does the family have to listen to the boy read the whole old testiment?! Or does the boy just read a part of it?
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Clowd:
Ironfist where is it in the Bible that says Jesus and God had human bodies? I understand that God said he would make man in his image but he was meaning they had freewill, not like the animals who just lived on instinct.
It\'s obvious that the Bible says Jesus Christ has a physical body. The whole New Testament was about his mortal life! :) And after he was crucified, he was resurrected and returned to the people and showed them that he still had a physical body.
And about God the Father...that is the great thing about the LDS church. We don\'t need to rely on one 2000+ year old book for all of our knowledge of God. We believe in other books that came from God. And even more importantly, we believe in modern day prophets of God, who get revelation directly from God. My religion is not based off of the Bible. The Bible does support my religion though. We can believe that God has a physical body even if that docterine is not found in the Bible.
And here\'s a question for you: Where in the Bible does it say that God "was meaning they had freewill, not like the animals who just lived on instinct"? Yeah, that\'s what I thought. It doesn\'t. That is just one of the many interpretations that have come from man, not from God himself.
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edit:
Rya:
Rya said in response to Clowd:
Whoa! Wait! I thought that God created the universe, created life on earth, and then created man. Man screwed up for years and then Jesus was born. Or do you mean something different?
I agree with Clowd on this one. Jesus was the one who created the earth. I believe that he was a spirit at the time though (I\'m not sure what Clowd believes). Jesus was given authority over this world because both God and Jesus knew that this world would be where Christ would be crucified. I believe that God has created many many worlds, but this world is the only one that Jesus himself created.
In the Bible, it says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) Jesus Christ is "the Word". He was with God the Father. And in a sense, he was/is God over this world.
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To IronFist:
I guess I just don\'t understand your question. Here\'s what you should do, reword your question so any idiot could understand it, then dumb it down a little more. Even I should be able to understand a question like that.
Oh, no...you did a fine job answering that question. I should have been a bit clearer when I replied to it. :D What I meant was that I was having a hard time grasping the concept, that\'s all. But, still, my thanks to you for your efforts.
I don\'t think the problem is not having enough time. I think it\'s that most Americans are lazy.
How about those Americans who work long and hard every day of the week, every week of the year? Some people aren\'t lazy and don\'t need to find any type of spirituality to be happy. Well, then again, everyone\'s different in how they handle their time and activities.
Who do you respect and look up to more, your father, or your grandpa? I know this answer will vary from person to person, but I would think that in most cases people look up to their father more
That\'s true. But we also look up to our grandfathers as well as our fathers. Maybe not as much, but there is still some admiration and respect. Why don\'t Christians do the same? Give some admiration and respect to the god of God?
Yes, my church believes that. I even wrote it in my last post (you must have just not noticed it). Read the first bulleted section again.
You mean the part where you mentioned the three kingdoms? You said, "where we can progress and become greater beings." I immediately thought angels, but not gods.:)
both Adam and Eve are blamed, not only Eve like you may think.
Some churchs believe that women should be blamed for human damnation though, that they\'re the root of all evil. In history, women were blamed and that\'s why they were subordinated; to keep them from doing more harm to mankind. That\'s why we can see in historical literature and pre-80\'s movies that men saw women as "weak," due to the image of Eve\'s temptation. From what I understand, there hasn\'t been any female pope because women can\'t reach the level of holiness as men.
That was just one example. What about the one who cut off Samson\'s hair? Delilah, was it? She was portrayed pretty badly. And wasn\'t Mary Magdalen (sp?) a prostitute? From what I remember, there are more women evil-doers in the Bible than there are good-doers. The only ones who are good, that I can think of are Esther, Sarah, and of course the Virgin Mary.
Because that would take away their free will. Free will is very important to God. In fact, because God gave us free will is the reason we needed Jesus Christ to make it back to heaven (because we can choose to sin). If we didn\'t have free will, this world would be completely different. (we would be drones, obeying every command given to us.)
That\'s a good point.
I have a question about this free will topic. Let\'s say that there is a person who lost his faith. He feels there wouldn\'t be a point in going to church anymore when he doesn\'t even believe what is being preached. However, he feels that if he left the church, the other church members (who are his family and friends) will look differently of him, and possibly look down on him. As we know, humans are social creatures. For this guy to loose the friendship he has with the church members would be devistating. So wouldn\'t he be trapped in going to church even if he does have free will?
Does the family have to listen to the boy read the whole old testiment?! Or does the boy just read a part of it?
:laughing: You know, I don\'t know if he has to read the whole thing or paraphrase it. You\'re going to have to find someone who\'s Jewish and ask him/her. Sorry I couldn\'t answer your question. If I find out, I\'ll be sure to tell you.
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Originally posted by IronFist
Rya:
Clowd:
My religion is not based off of the Bible. The Bible does support my religion though. We can believe that God has a physical body even if that docterine is not found in the Bible.
And here\'s a question for you: Where in the Bible does it say that God "was meaning they had freewill, not like the animals who just lived on instinct"? Yeah, that\'s what I thought. It doesn\'t. That is just one of the many interpretations that have come from man, not from God himself.
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edit:
Rya:
I agree with Clowd on this one. Jesus was the one who created the earth. I believe that he was a spirit at the time though (I\'m not sure what Clowd believes). Jesus was given authority over this world because both God and Jesus knew that this world would be where Christ would be crucified. I believe that God has created many many worlds, but this world is the only one that Jesus himself created.
In the Bible, it says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) Jesus Christ is "the Word". He was with God the Father. And in a sense, he was/is God over this world.
Before replying I want to quote Jesus "Happy are those who do not see and yet believe."
See, my religion is based on the bible. If its not in the Bible, then we don\'t teach it because it would be the word of men.
I believe God created Jesus, who was the first of all creation. Then through Jesus God created the Universe.
The reason why Jesus was crucified was to pay a ransom to God. You see the wages sin pays is death. So when Adam and Even sinned they passed down sin to us all. So since the wages sin pays is death, we are all doomed to die. The only way to counter this is for a perfect sacrifice = Jesus
As for Jesus having a human body how was he able to walk through walls with a material body?
Iron fist in your bible it says the word was God with a capital G? Which translation is this?
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Originally posted by Rya
Physical properties and the motion of physical objects...example being...?
Anything could be an example, but some obvious ones would be the sun rising and falling in the sky, the seasons changing, and the aging of people.
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In the Bible, it says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) Jesus Christ is "the Word". He was with God the Father. And in a sense, he was/is God over this world.
So does this quote mean that it\'s rewriting Genesis 1:1-31?
How do you know that "the Word" isn\'t God\'s thoughts? What he wants man to know? And then he decided to embody his thoughts into Jesus?
And if you look at the quote...to a person who hasn\'t delved into studying the Bible, it seems to say that Jesus came before God. Shouldn\'t God be mentioned first and the "the Word?"
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This thread is evidence of one thing sure enough. The world would be sooo much better without religion.
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agreed.
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Originally posted by shockwaves
Anything could be an example, but some obvious ones would be the sun rising and falling in the sky, the seasons changing, and the aging of people.
The rising and setting of the sun can be measure by the rotation the earth made, which is a measurement of distance. The seasons changing can be measure by the angle of the earth\'s tilt towards the sun (23.3 degrees, I think) and the location of where the season\'s being experienced. The aging of people is measured by the amount of white blood cell count in the body\'s system and deterioration of cells and the lack of melanin contained in the body.
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Originally posted by luckee
This thread is evidence of one thing sure enough. The world would be sooo much better without religion.
without false religion, yes
All the blood spilt on Earth has been because of religion
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And what are those measurements? The angle of the earth towards the sun is simply a two dimensional measurement. Time is no different, it just deals with different dimensions. In any given dimension, an object can move either forward or backward. There are three dimensions that we can perceive that deal with physical movement (the x, y, and z axes), and an object can move along each indefinitely. Time is the same way, it is just in a different dimension, and one that is required for you to make any of the measurements I specified.
Sure, you can measure the angle of the earth to the sun, but that is just a measurement. It says nothing of change. However, when you start taking different measurements at different times, you see change. It is like a line, moving through two dimensional space. If you look at it at only one value, you can take a measurement, but you can\'t see where the line is moving. If you take multiple measurements, varying the values in both dimensions, you see change. Time is no different for length or width, or depth. We just perceive it differently. Once we figure out how things react in the other three dimensions, with changes in this fourth dimension, we can predict how things will change with respect to time. That way, we can predict things like the changing of seasons of the rising and setting of the sun, and when they will occur with respect to this value that we have named time.
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Originally posted by Clowd
All the blood spilt on Earth has been because of religion
All of it? Yeah, right. I suppose when someone kills a man that he finds sleeping with his wife, that would be because of religion. Blood isn\'t spilt because of religion, it is spilt because of anger. It just happens that religion is a major cause of anger, at times.
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Rya:
That\'s true. But we also look up to our grandfathers as well as our fathers. Maybe not as much, but there is still some admiration and respect. Why don\'t Christians do the same? Give some admiration and respect to the god of God?
One big reason is because most Christians don\'t believe our God has a father. Only us Mormons believe that. :) Most Christians believe in only one God who has always existed.
It is only important for us to know of our one God, not his God, or his God\'s God. God has told us that besides him, there is no one. I believe that he is telling us to not worry about any other Gods besides him. He is the only one that is important to us right now. If we go on worrying about who else is up there, we are losing focus of what is really important. Maybe when we die we will see how vast this whole "reality" is, but until then, we shouldn\'t worry about it. If we don\'t live worthy lives, and do the necessary things on this world, we will lose our chance to benefit from God\'s plan anyways.
While typing that, I thought of an example: You want to stay out late with your friends, but your Dad says you have to be home by 12:00. You say, but so-and-so\'s Dad lets so-and-so stay out until 1:00. Then your Dad says something along the lines of, "It does not matter what so-and-so\'s Dad says. I am your father, so just worry about what I say." I think that God is thinking the same thing. Do not worry about other God\'s, just worry about what our God has to say.
You mean the part where you mentioned the three kingdoms? You said, "where we can progress and become greater beings." I immediately thought angels, but not gods. :)
Read just below that: "The highest degree [of the 3 degrees in the Celestial kingdom] is where the people who were baptized into Christ\'s church, who lived a worthy life, and who got married in a temple "for time and all eternity" go. These people, husband and wife, are able to progress from there and eventually become Gods."
But it\'s not important if I had already posted it or not. All that is important is that yes, us Mormons believe that we can become Gods ourselves.
Some churchs believe that women should be blamed for human damnation though, that they\'re the root of all evil. In history, women were blamed and that\'s why they were subordinated; to keep them from doing more harm to mankind. That\'s why we can see in historical literature and pre-80\'s movies that men saw women as "weak," due to the image of Eve\'s temptation. From what I understand, there hasn\'t been any female pope because women can\'t reach the level of holiness as men.
That was just one example. What about the one who cut off Samson\'s hair? Delilah, was it? She was portrayed pretty badly. And wasn\'t Mary Magdalen (sp?) a prostitute? From what I remember, there are more women evil-doers in the Bible than there are good-doers. The only ones who are good, that I can think of are Esther, Sarah, and of course the Virgin Mary.
You are correct, the scriptures do not mention females very often. And a lot of the times that they are mentioned, it\'s only because they are the people tempting the males. But remember that in the scriptures, there are a lot of males mentioned who are huge sinners (even more male sinners are mentioned than the females).
Like you said, for whatever reason, in the past girls have always been considered lesser beings than boys. When the scriptures were written, these belief was probably pretty common and excepted. Today though, females are finally gaining the respect that they have always deserved. It\'s too bad the scriptures were written so long ago, or there might be mention of more righteous females.
I\'ll tell you what though, in response to "there hasn\'t been any female pope because women can\'t reach the level of holiness as men." That is nonsense. Righteous Females as a whole are far more holy than righteous men are.
I have a question about this free will topic. Let\'s say that there is a person who lost his faith. He feels there wouldn\'t be a point in going to church anymore when he doesn\'t even believe what is being preached. However, he feels that if he left the church, the other church members (who are his family and friends) will look differently of him, and possibly look down on him. As we know, humans are social creatures. For this guy to loose the friendship he has with the church members would be devistating. So wouldn\'t he be trapped in going to church even if he does have free will?
Going against your family and friends, either by leaving their church, or joining a church they don\'t believe in, can be a very hard thing to do. But if a person doesn\'t believe in the teachings of that church, then he would have the freedom to choose to either leave the church or stay in it. All choices come with consequences; Some good, some bad. Even so, we still have the freedom to choose.
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Clowd:
See, my religion is based on the bible. If its not in the Bible, then we don\'t teach it because it would be the word of men.
But because the Bible has been translated so many times by so many men, how can you be sure it still has the original meaning that it had when it was first written? And when you teach things that are in the Bible, how do you decide the correct interpretation of some of the more vague verses? If God isn\'t telling your church how to interpret the scriptures, then it is men who are interpreting it.
I believe God created Jesus, who was the first of all creation. Then through Jesus God created the Universe.
I believe that Jesus was the first born spirit child, and God\'s only begotten son (God\'s only son in a physical body that he is the father of).
As for Jesus having a human body how was he able to walk through walls with a material body?
I could only speculate. Maybe Christ is in a completely different dimension than we are in, so walls wouldn\'t effect Jesus the same way. BTW, where in the Bible does Jesus walk through walls? (I don\'t remember reading this.)
If you can believe that a man lived a perfect life, then died for all of our sins, is it so hard to believe that man could also walk through walls? He was part God after all in his mortal life.
Iron fist in your bible it says the word was God with a capital G? Which translation is this?
King James Version.
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Originally posted by shockwaves
And what are those measurements? The angle of the earth towards the sun is simply a two dimensional measurement. Time is no different, it just deals with different dimensions. In any given dimension, an object can move either forward or backward. There are three dimensions that we can perceive that deal with physical movement (the x, y, and z axes), and an object can move along each indefinitely. Time is the same way, it is just in a different dimension, and one that is required for you to make any of the measurements I specified.
Sure, you can measure the angle of the earth to the sun, but that is just a measurement. It says nothing of change. However, when you start taking different measurements at different times, you see change. It is like a line, moving through two dimensional space. If you look at it at only one value, you can take a measurement, but you can\'t see where the line is moving. If you take multiple measurements, varying the values in both dimensions, you see change. Time is no different for length or width, or depth. We just perceive it differently. Once we figure out how things react in the other three dimensions, with changes in this fourth dimension, we can predict how things will change with respect to time. That way, we can predict things like the changing of seasons of the rising and setting of the sun, and when they will occur with respect to this value that we have named time.
OK, where do I start.
First, space is not flat, rather it is 3-D. How do we know this? Well space is curved because of gravity. How do we know that? Well gravity creates a curviture, like a bowl. Take a ball bearing for instance. Drop it in the side of the bowl and what does it do? It rolls in a circle until it hits the bottom. OK if you flew a spacecraft by the sun you would get sucked to the center of the bowl like the ball bearing. The planets are in the 3-D curviture of the sun, or the bowl, but they where given the right amount of speed to not get sucked into the sun. OK so we\'ve established that space is 3-D.
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I never claimed that space wasn\'t three dimensional. I simply said that simple angles can always be measured in two dimensions, at a given fixed time.
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Originally posted by shockwaves
I never claimed that space wasn\'t three dimensional. I simply said that simple angles can always be measured in two dimensions, at a given fixed time.
Oh, I forgot to finish. Some have theorized (Albert Einstein is one) that time is very distorted in high gravity areas, why most believe a black hole may send you to the future or past.
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Well, that makes sense. After all, the other dimensions are distorted too, are they not? The physical dimensions of an object would be completely warped as it was crushed by the black hole, so why would it\'s properties in the fourth dimension not under go similar changes, in theory. Of course, it is all theory, since I doubt anything could ever come through something like that alive.
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Time is no different, it just deals with different dimensions. In any given dimension, an object can move either forward or backward.
Good argument! Kudos to you! I concede. :D
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To IronFist:
God has told us that besides him, there is no one. I believe that he is telling us to not worry about any other Gods besides him.
If God tells us that there is no other gods, then why does he even mention that there are other gods that can be worried over?
While typing that, I thought of an example: You want to stay out late with your friends, but your Dad says you have to be home by 12:00. You say, but so-and-so\'s Dad lets so-and-so stay out until 1:00. Then your Dad says something along the lines of, "It does not matter what so-and-so\'s Dad says. I am your father, so just worry about what I say." I think that God is thinking the same thing. Do not worry about other God\'s, just worry about what our God has to say.
Good example! But that can be reversed. A person is at a friend\'s house. And let\'s say that the two are playing football in the house. The friend\'s dad walks in and says "If I were your father, I wouldn\'t let you play football in the house." And then the person says, "but you\'re not my father."
But remember that in the scriptures, there are a lot of males mentioned who are huge sinners (even more male sinners are mentioned than the females).
But, I bet, if you took the time and calculated the ratios of good and bad men or women against the total number of men or women, the women ratio would be way higher leaning towards the bad.
Today though, females are finally gaining the respect that they have always deserved.
Not enough. Women aren\'t even as equal as men. How many women are in the Senate? How many are in the Supreme Court? How many have been president? Besides politics, look at how women are mentioned on this forum. I haven\'t seen a single piece of evidence of respect. When men can see, speak, and think of women in a respectable manner, then equality is achieved. Until then, women will keep on fighting.
Righteous Females as a whole are far more holy than righteous men are.
Whoever nabs you for a boyfriend will be very lucky. So far, you\'re the second guy, that I\'ve seen, who thinks that.
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Originally posted by shockwaves
All of it? Yeah, right. I suppose when someone kills a man that he finds sleeping with his wife, that would be because of religion. Blood isn\'t spilt because of religion, it is spilt because of anger. It just happens that religion is a major cause of anger, at times.
In addition:
Blood is also spilt because people are afraid of being proven wrong. People are afraid to accept new things and ideas. Basically, blood is spilt because of fear and death is one way of getting rid of the thing that one fears most.
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Originally posted by Clowd
without false religion, yes
All the blood spilt on Earth has been because of religion
NO without religion period...
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Originally posted by shockwaves
All of it? Yeah, right. I suppose when someone kills a man that he finds sleeping with his wife, that would be because of religion. Blood isn\'t spilt because of religion, it is spilt because of anger. It just happens that religion is a major cause of anger, at times.
Religion is the leading cause of war also. Millions die for their "god".
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Originally posted by luckee
NO without religion period...
Well, he said false religion. If you think all religion is false, then that would imply all religion.
And I would guess that at the very base of it all, more wars are started over greed than religion.
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WWI and WWII are greed yes. Germans wanted the world. The crusades, the war against terror are two examples of war due to religion.
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I don\'t think that either is due to religion. I think that religion was an excuse for the crusades. In reality it was about extending the power of the catholic church as a political entity. The War Against Terror is NOT about religion. We aren\'t fighting them because of their religion, and they didn\'t attack us because of ours. They attacked us because of our greedy actions.
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You doubt their interpretation of the koran hasnt not fueled their hatred for us? They have even quoted passages in which they twist meanings in some of the video\'s of osama.
Well, he said false religion. If you think all religion is false, then that would imply all religion.
And I would guess that at the very base of it all, more wars are started over greed than religion.
No, I\'m going stick with religion PERIOD.
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Originally posted by luckee
You doubt their interpretation of the koran hasnt not fueled their hatred for us? They have even quoted passages in which they twist meanings in some of the video\'s of osama.
Propoganda.
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Will a mod please change the title of this thread to " Religious Discussion 101 (See page 7) " I want newcomers to be able to join in with the discussion without feeling intimidated by the size of the thread.
Religious Discussion 101: Part 2
For the newcomers who don\'t know what this thread is all about: If you have a question about something someone else believes, or a question that you think will stump someone else about their religion, or are just unsure about something in your own religion, ask away. Or if you just want to comment, feel free to.
I\'ve been without internet for a few days, but I\'m back now. It looks like this thread hasn\'t been touched since then though. Lets see if I can get it started again...
I\'ll ask another question: From what I understand, many Christian churches believe that because Adam sinned, we are all born sinners and must immediately be baptised. This question is for those of you who believe in that. How can one justify being held accountable for Adam\'s sin, and how can one explain baptism at birth? Would a merciful god hold babies accountable, even for sins they didn\'t commit? Is this belief supported by the Bible? If so, where?
And I want to bring back my first question, "How does one explain salvation by grace alone when verses in the Bible say just the opposite?" Racer has given me his interpretation, but didn\'t bother to further explain himself when I brought up other scriptures. So again, here are some scriptures from the Bible (King James Version) that support my question:
- Matthew 7: 22, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
- James 2:17, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
- 24, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
- 26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
If "faith without works is dead", then wouldn\'t that mean that salvation by faith in Christ without works is dead?[/list]
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And now to respond a little to some previous posts:
Shockwaves:
I first want to give Shockwaves a round of applause. Even though he doesn\'t believe in religion, and thinks the world would be much better without it, he still defends it against baseless attacks. Words cannot show the amount of respect I now have for you. Thank you Shockwaves.
Rya:
If God tells us that there is no other gods, then why does he even mention that there are other gods that can be worried over?
My guess is that he told us so we knew what we had to look forward to. Most Christians believe that heaven is a place where we can just sit back and relax, playing our harp for eternity (maybe not playing a harp, but you get the point :)). God wanted us to know that there was so much more than we had originally thought coming up in the next life. Life after death really is life after death, not "sit around and be lazy for eternity" after death. :) He wanted to stress the importance of doing the right things in this life so we can actually be a part of the things coming up in the next life. I think he told us to motivate us a little more to do what\'s right. Of course, I could be completely wrong about his motives.
Clowd:
Bringing up an unanswered question: where in the Bible does Jesus walk through walls? I am interested in where this is said.
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Page depends on how you have it set up. It is only on page 4 here for me.
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I personally think baptism near birth is such bullshit. Just b/c the kids parents believe in "X" religion, why should a kid be forced into it without consent like in the catholic tradition of baptism.
Im still rather pissed at my parents for that.
I know it kind of deteats the purpose if it isnt done relatively close in terms of being born vs. later in life when one can make their own choice. Even still, I think its a shit deal.
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Originally posted by IronFist
Shockwaves:
I first want to give Shockwaves a round of applause. Even though he doesn\'t believe in religion, and thinks the world would be much better without it, he still defends it against baseless attacks. Words cannot show the amount of respect I now have for you. Thank you Shockwaves.
:)
Thanks.
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Videoholic:
Page depends on how you have it set up. It is only on page 4 here for me.
Yeah, but hopefully most people left their page settings alone. :) BTW, thank you for changing it Videoholic.
luckee:
Im still rather pissed at my parents for that.
I agree with you that it isn\'t right to baptize someone without their consent. But you shouldn\'t be mad at your parents for it. If you don\'t believe in their religion, then you also don\'t believe in the baptism, thus, making your baptism meaningless.
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Originally posted by IronFist
I agree with you that it isn\'t right to baptize someone without their consent. But you shouldn\'t be mad at your parents for it. If you don\'t believe in their religion, then you also don\'t believe in the baptism, thus, making your baptism meaningless.
That\'s what confirmation is for in Catholocism. Too bad I stopped believing after I got my confirmation.
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I was forced to do that as well as well as forced to go to private catholic schooling for 10.5 years :(
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I don\'t go to catholic school, thank god (no pun intended). I\'ll probably leave the church when I go to college (safe distance from my mom).
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BTW, thank you for changing it Videoholic.
When you make assumptions you make an ass out of you and me. :)
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I agree with luckee here, if i were ever baptized I\'d be quite pissed off. Even though I don\'t believe in religion and the likes, I still don\'t want to be involved in any religious rituals. I mean even if you don\'t believe in the devil, most of you wouldn\'t want to be forced to pledge aligence to him. (sorry that I compared Jesus to the Devil, but it does get the idea across :))
However, from the parents stand point, I can somewhat understand it. In some peoples eyes, having an unbaptised child in their house, is like housing a felon. Though I still think that having a Baptism at a later age would not only be better for the child, but could make the ceremony itself more meaningful. Instead of the child being forced into a belief system, they would be choosing it for themself.
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Oops, my mistake. Thank you Ryu. :)
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Yes, everyone forgets about Ryu :) Vid is obviously the cooler one :p
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...
/me kills Titan
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Originally posted by Toxical
I did not read more than 25 percent of this thread, cause i know Dinosaurs still exist, i look at MJ and my point is proven. :D
As for religion, it is nothing more than superstition, and BS. All those dumb-fuk jihad/towel heads killing in the name of "GOD" is just dumb. They kill because they rape donkeys, and sheep.
Religion is whacked.
WTF does this mean, was it directed towards me, I must change my name
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Originally posted by luckee
I personally think baptism near birth is such bullshit. Just b/c the kids parents believe in "X" religion, why should a kid be forced into it without consent like in the catholic tradition of baptism.
Im still rather pissed at my parents for that.
I know it kind of deteats the purpose if it isnt done relatively close in terms of being born vs. later in life when one can make their own choice. Even still, I think its a shit deal.
yea but when ur born, your taught your believes... you dont just decide what religion you want to be. it is one of those tradition things.