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Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: mjps21983 on January 17, 2003, 10:29:41 AM
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Well what does everyone think of affirmative action, in schools and the work place. I\'ll post my opinions later.
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This is a touchy subject. But, I think that everyone should be treated equaly. everyone. Here\'s the problem, If you have a school that accepts minorities as a rule you then make the majority a minority. Now I am completely aware with the fact that this is not always the case, but it does happen. I dont believe that someone with higher credentials should not be permitted into a school or the workplace only because they are not a minority.
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i am hispanic and i want to be treated as an equal. I do not want to be given any special treatment because I am another race. Affirmative action is just a way to repent for something that happen to a race of people years ago. The sad truth is that we cannot fix the mistakes of the pass with a quick fix. We did what we could now I think we should all move on and be treated as equals besides was\'nt that the original goal to begin with
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I agree. We should get rid of the Minority and Majority and say that everyone is equal and leave it at that. However, if that happens, the KKK will be in uproars. I hate the KKK. They shouldn\'t be allowed in the US.
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I can say that I have enjoyed many fine workdays with people of another color. I have found though that when things in the past that may or may not even be related to the person of another color get brought up they instantly get defensive. Let me get one thing str8, I did not put anybody into slavery and I did not oppress anybody due to the color of there skin. I am sure that most of those alive and well today of another color have never been slaves here in the states. In my opinion racism is fear, fear of what one doesn’t know. If you wanna see a gr8 movie about these races coming together watch “Remember the Titans”. I say that this was one of the best movies that deal with racism. As for Affirmative action, I see it in the work place and I see a lot of whites, blacks, etc getting shut out having higher education due to the need for more of another nationality and it makes me sick. Reverse Racism sucks. Racism sucks any way you slice it!
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While I don\'t agree with Affirmative Action in its current incarnation, I think that something like it is a necessary evil. If left to their own means employers would still apply their own bias to the employment process.
What a lot of people fail to realize about Affirmative Action is that it is not a black, white thing. As a matter of fact white women benefit from Affirmative action more than all blacks(male and female).
Another thing that people say is that they don\'t want to lose a job to someone that is less qualified because of the color of their skin. Before Affirmative Action was implemented the same thing was happening. Their were latinos and blacks that were losing jobs to less qualified white employees. I am not, however, trying to justify it. I think its a necessary evil that helps promote equality in the workplace but is unfortunately flawed in its execution.
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People are naturally bias. Leave them to their own devices and their will be a bias system. If asian women were the majority in the business world then mostly asian women would be hired. Its human nature. If the powers that be feel as if imposing this system will help off set that natural bias(however slightly) then more power to them.
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what is affermative action?
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Afffermative action is nothing.
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I think that some sort of Affirmative Action is unfortunately still necessary. It\'s sad that it has to be, but racism still does exist in this country to an extent that something like this is necessary. I do, however, think that it is taken a bit too far. When a better qualified person loses out on a job because of affirmative action, it isn\'t that different from a better qualtified minority losing out due to racism. It\'s just that in some parts of the country, if you don\'t have one, you\'ll have the other.
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My thing is that if I were of a minority, just my opinion and this is where I don\'t get black leaders, who do nothing, but push Affirmative Action. It would be a slap in my face to tell me I got the job over another white person who was better qualified than I was because I was black or Asian. It\'s basically saying you can\'t get a job on your own so the Govt. has to help you get it. And I totally think black leaders are bad for their people because all they do is bitch and gripe and get not a damn thing done, because they are happy with the position they are in, they just care about themselves.
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One problem with affirmative action, it is basically telling Latinos, Blacks, and Native Americans that they can\'t compete with other people unless they are given special treatment. And given that colleges and university isn\'t going to lower their teaching standards for them, many people from these groups actually enter these schools unprepared. This actually hurts them in the long run. I mean, I understand why it was in place, but Afirmative Action is simply using racism to fight racism.
Note, I didn\'t say Asians. Because Asians do fine by themselves in terms of grades, Asians are actually HURT by Afirmative Action since, well, because "Asians do too well". So, a black or latino man/woman would be accepted over Whites as well as Asians .
My solution would simply eliminate race from the application and simply have a blind admission. If it helps even more, eliminate the name too if you feel the name "gives" away the race in any way.
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I personally think its bullshit and yet still necessary. So I guess Im standing on the fence. I wish we didnt need the policy.
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College points to see if you get accepted:
perfect SAT scores:13 points
Minority:20 Points
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Its not as much an issue of race as it is equality. If you really want to get into it white women make up the majority of college students, on average have the highest grades, and are generally more qualified(as far as preparation and training). Yet and still, they are not the majority in the workforce(not even in the right out of college workforce) and they make less than their male counterparts in virtually every job. All things being equal, the feminist movement of the 60s and 70s put women in position to take over the workforce and the are still a minority.
BTW, While the people that yack and complain about AAction today are those opportunistic leeches(ie. self appointed black leaders) the people that actually got it off the ground and benefit the most from it are women(mostly white). Still people want to make it into a race thing. More power to you I guess.
Ungawa
[EDIT]MY bad. Women didn\'t get AAction of the ground. It was first implemented by LBJ\'s administration to improve opportunities for blacks.
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Originally posted by Gohan
BTW, While the people that yack and complain about AAction today are those opportunistic leeches(ie. self appointed black leaders) the people that actually got it off the ground and benefit the most from it are women(mostly white). Still people want to make it into a race thing. More power to you I guess.
yea, like the black panthers, the black pride group. all self appointed.
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I didn\'t say anything about the panthers. Personally I would not put them in that group. The panthers lead the panthers and others follow. The people that I was mainly reffering to were Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, et al. It sickens me how these guys jump out of the woodwork to promote a victim like state of mind amongst black people. Personally, I think they are actually supported by the government. When you have two jackasses watering down the message and crying wolf the people will never listen.[/mini rant]
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ONly b/c they were actually victims since they were alive during the 50\'s and 60\'s. This wont even begin to die down untill everyone from the pre-77 or so is dead.
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This is true, because pre-77 owns or is in charge of alot of things ie govt. and many major corperations.
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Originally posted by mjps21983
Well what does everyone think of affirmative action, in schools and the work place. I\'ll post my opinions later.
Its an outdated philosophy that was necessary back in the 50\'s but didn\'t get implemented till much later. I believe Affirmative action started in the late 70\'s and ran through the 80\'s to early 90\'s
SCREWED ME out of a few high paying union jobs. My Dad couldn\'t get me a job as a union electrician at the Ford plant in Buffalo NY because I was not a minority, or a woman.
I understand how it was necessary for awhile, but today any citizen or even non citizen in this Country who comes from low income families can get more then enough money to goto school and get degrees
In that case it should always be "The best qualified" person who gets any job
I\'m sure there is still some racial based hiring decisions etc... going on, but just handing people positions based on race, or gender is ludicrous
Overall I am against it,
Affirmative Action = Reverse racism
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Originally posted by ddaryl
Affirmative Action = Reverse racism
No such thing as "reverse" racism. Racism is racism.
Something like that implies that racism directed from minorities to whites is backwards and that racism is only natural when directed at minorities.
^^^May not have come out right; but it makes sense in my head.
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I tend to agree with that notion. By saying Afirmative Action = "reverse" racism, thats implying that racism is racism only if it is done by whites. While the opposite, isn\'t. So, racism is racism is racism. Nothing reverse about it no matter where it is used.
Other then that, I agree with ddaryl 100%. While Affirmative Action was needed, in say, the 50s, nowadays, things like skill level and quality should take precendent over the color of someone\'s skins.
I would also like to add, as quickly as those "special treatments" can be given, it can also be easily taken away. After all, my example, Asians. Doesn\'t matter that they are a minority. Since the majority of Asians have a very high work ethic (doesn\'t matter that they are poor, middle class, or rich) they in turn do better in school, and are typically excluded when Affirmative Action is discussed. Also, now that there are more woman in college, in order to be more "diverse" does that mean that their special treatment should be elimated now? Also, in a job, if you are a highly qualified woman, what happens if a not so qualified black woman or latino woman (also, maybe even Asian woman since this is talking about the workforce) applies for the same job? Again, racism, and maybe even a little sexism, to fight racism and sexism...is not good for this society in the long run.
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Originally posted by Simchoy
racism, and maybe even a little sexism, to fight racism and sexism...is not good for this society in the long run.
What would you propose as an alternative? The status quo? IMHO, Affirmative action is a flawed program but it is still needed.
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Unfortunatly you are correct gohan :(
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First, what is the status que? An all white admission? Absouletly not! Doesn\'t matter what part of the political spectrum you\'re on, no one wants this to happen (except the ultra KKK racist, but no one listens to them, or should listen to them, anyways). But at the same time, I believe Affirmative Action has come and gone, and is actually detrimental to the cause of "helping minorities".
In terms of college admission, a true color and maybe even gender blind admission. No race, and if it helps, no names either (just a number and SAT scores plus academic GPA).This way, the best of the people get in without the cloud of suspecion that they didn\'t belong in the school. Black, while, hispanics, asians, whatever. Take the UC system here in California for example, we got rid of Affirmative Action. Everyone predicted gloom and boom the minority admission. In reality, minority admission is up. Now, maybe not at the ultra high places like Berkerly (though even here, Asian admissions are up if not blacks) but at Riverside (school I\'m currently going to) which had an increase in both Latino and Black admissions. After all, for job seekers, simply having a deploma is important. Doesn\'t matter if it is from Berkerly or Riverside (in fact, if they feel that Berkerly is too hard and drop out, that actually hurts them compared to, say, going to Riverside and simply getting a deploma since no one is going to care about a Berkerly dropout).
Now, if the reason why, say, Blacks are not performing as well as they should, then get to the source of the problem, the schools (specifically, high schools). Improve those schools, and watch the trickle effect to the colleges, and we have a population of blacks that will be able to compete with the other races like asians are doing in terms of colleges.
As for jobs, this is a little harder since you do have to contend with bosses and managers who maybe biased (one way or another). However, as far as I\'m concerned, if anyone is qualified or skilled enough to be hired or promoted, I believe that said person should be hired or promoted, and if they are not, said person should quit and find an employer that respects that employee\'s skills. The one that is losing out for that company not hiring or promoting said person is that that they are losing out on a skilled worker. At worse, they would go to the media and expose the racist or sexist bastard for hiring a white male or unqualified female in place of a skilled educated worker.
Simply having some kinda quota (this many blacks) or forced not to hire a white worker because a less skilled minority worker applied as well is not the answer.
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^^^I agree with you. IMHO, Affirmative Action is like taking a tylenol for cancer. It may help the pain right now but in the long run you are still f*cked.
The government and "black leaders" are more concerned with programs like Affirmative action than they are about getting to the heart of the problem. Which is finding out why there is a need gender and minority based programs. Why are black and hispanic students\' test scores, on average, lower than their white counterparts? Why do they need to bus students out of inner cities and rural areas in order to get a decent education? Doesn\'t the government see something wrong with that? The fact that Affirmative Action recieves SO much die-hard support shows that people really don\'t care about equality in the first place.