PSX5Central
Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: project86 on February 24, 2003, 05:24:26 AM
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This to all who seem to think that any of these “anti-war” or “anti-America” threads are of any use to these forums. All who speak in these manners must be aware of the action they are taking place in and how bashing somebody’s homeland can bring up some bitter feelings. I for one have been offended by a few of these threads and have done an injustice to many in replying to them. I am sorry for doing so. I will no longer partake in these threads due to the fact that I love my country and I will support it no matter what. I support my freedom and the freedom of anybody under a tyrant. I am what you would call a patriot. I am so and will never change my ways or my ideals on the matter. I love the United States. I love my freedom.
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no problem... i mean seeing that we live in a Police State sorry Democracy we could use this thread to decide whether or not to have “anti-war” or “anti-America” threads in Off Topic.
Although i think your 100% mistaken when you beleve that everyone who is Anti War is Automaticaly Anti American.
The WAR Debate is Not as Black and White as President Bush and Mr BLIAR trys to make out.
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Cool, I like freedom too. :D
If they really wanna go in and take out Saddam because he\'s a bad man, fine. If they want to go take his oil, fine. Might make the gas prices cheaper. That $2.01 for 87 octane is really killing my pocket. ;)
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Police State, you guys crack me up! Some people just don\'t know how good they have it.
Ace
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Originally posted by Ace
Police State, you guys crack me up! Some people just don\'t know how good they have it.
Ace
Whaooo Statement of a Police State and Proof in just 17 words
:surprised
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Originally posted by ooseven
Whaooo Statement of a Police State and Proof in just 17 words
:surprised
You need to get out more. Like beyond Europe. Your current dilussional state will be changed. I garrantee it.
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Explain further please. It\'s early Monday morning and I won\'t be up to speed for about two more hours.
Ace
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
You need to get out more. Like beyond Europe. Your current dilussional state will be changed. I garrantee it.
Funny i could of used that for you living in the US..what with only 7% of your population with a passport and even less than that who can identify the correct locations of well know countries.
You know just because i disagree with the War stance dosen\'t mean i am dilussional.
Remember all this effort is going to planning a War...
there has been Little to No planning of what to do after the "Victory".
Power Vacuums are the greatest breeding grounds for terrorists
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as for proof of a Police State... you just have to look at all the laws and moves passed to "protect the Homeland" at the Expence of your Freedom.
Terrorists wan\'t to rob you of your freedom
sothe Powers that be tighten their grip over us and we end up loseing our freedoms anyway.
the end results prity much the same either way... i.e. more power to some one who isn\'t you.
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Police State?
Ace
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Originally posted by Ace
Police State?
Ace
if you don\'t know what it stands for then maybe do a serch on Google.
or you could read 1984 about the effect of BIG BROTHER.
If any of them are to taxing then go and watch the Film Enemy of the State.
either way the ends prity much the same.
LOSS of Freedom, Death of Democracy !
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I know what it means. It is apparent that you are stretching to use the word.
Ace
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Originally posted by ooseven
Funny i could of used that for you living in the US..what with only 7% of your population with a passport and even less than that who can identify the correct locations of well know countries.
You know just because i disagree with the War stance dosen\'t mean i am dilussional.
I\'ve been to other countries. I\'ve LIVED for a few years in other countries. Don\'t assume that just coz I live in the US, I\'ve never left it. 7% of Americans have passports? You realize how large the US is? In the UK, I can understand why most people have passports to Europe. The UK is about the size of Vermont. One state. Until you know what freedoms you have and what others, like the Iraqi people, don\'t have, you\'re dillusional.
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
I\'ve been to other countries. I\'ve LIVED for a few years in other countries. Don\'t assume that just coz I live in the US, I\'ve never left it. 7% of Americans have passports? You realize how large the US is? In the UK, I can understand why most people have passports to Europe. The UK is about the size of Vermont. One state. Until you know what freedoms you have and what others, like the Iraqi people, don\'t have, you\'re dillusional.
Ouch!:eek:
I am glad to have you on my side man!:D
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
I\'ve been to other countries. I\'ve LIVED for a few years in other countries. Don\'t assume that just coz I live in the US, I\'ve never left it. 7% of Americans have passports? You realize how large the US is? In the UK, I can understand why most people have passports to Europe. The UK is about the size of Vermont. One state. Until you know what freedoms you have and what others, like the Iraqi people, don\'t have, you\'re dillusional.
You know my statement was a reply to your.
Oh your Dillusional you need to get out of Europe to realise how luck you are Blah Blah Blah...
But you Fail to realise that you don\'t have to go all to Far in Europe to see countries with appalling conditions and Human Rights Violations.
In Fact on Such Country recent to the European has Both a long list Human Rights Violations and a history of Violence against the Iraqi Kurds.
and that Country is... Turkey
a well its NICE to know you can put morals aside if it gets inthe way of your Nations Intrests.
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Then why don\'t YOU go there and protest? I bet you\'ll appreciate the freedom you have now.
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The world is a complicated place. I get the feeling you want all the injustices in the world to righted before we can act. Well, it doesn\'t work that way.
Ace
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Why dont YOU go there and fight?
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
Then why don\'t YOU go there and protest? I bet you\'ll appreciate the freedom you have now.
Look do you even know why we have the Right to protest peacefully ?
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Originally posted by luckee
Why dont YOU go there and fight?
Passed the age to enlist. I have had my share of skirmishes with Communists guerrillas and Muslim pirates in the South Pacific. That good enough for ya?
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Originally posted by luckee
Why dont YOU go there and fight?
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by ooseven
Look do you even know why we have the Right to protest peacefully ?
Wait a minute, you\'re in a police state. How come they let you protest?
Ace
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
Passed the age to enlist. I have had my share of skirmishes with Communists guerrillas and Muslim pirates in the South Pacific. That good enough for ya?
Not really:)
Besides, I was just responding in the same assholish fashion that you were.
Project..see above and save your rolleyes for someone who cares :)
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Kiss your EYES!?!?!
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Originally posted by Ace
Wait a minute, you\'re in a police state. How come they let you protest?
Ace
you know Tony Blair said only last week during a interview
"its great that in this Country (UK).. people are allowed to protest for views and issues that they feel is right, but there are some countries where you would be tortured and imprisoned for doing so"
the worrying thing is he and a envyous look when he mentioned that tortured and imprisoned part.
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Really?
So you read his mind?
Ace
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
Kiss your EYES!?!?!
Yeah, the brown eye buddy!
:p
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Originally posted by Ace
Really?
So you read his mind?
Ace
no he almost had a grin on his face when he said it.
;)
anyway this is all getting off topic rather quick.
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Just nitpicking..
Project, you have us in your sig, but you haven\'t come by in ages.
Ace.. your title has a capitol "L" in CLown. It\'s annoying, change it, you stupid man.
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
Just nitpicking..
Project, you have us in your sig, but you haven\'t come by in ages.
Sorry man, I have been busy fighting it out with these guys here. I\'ll be back soon enough. How are things going over there anyway?
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
Ace.. your title has a capitol "L" in CLown. It\'s annoying, change it, you stupid man.
LOL!
Thanks for catching it.
Ace
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*Ahem* long time no see...
A couple points. Why Invade Iraq because Saddam is cruel to the population? We stop him from killing them, by um... Killing them?
The American govermant is slowly taking away simple freedoms like the right to privacy, to protect freedom. Why take away freedom to protect freedom?
Most of the world population is against a war, even the countries allied with the United States are only doing so because of a few top leaders in their govermant.
America needs to drop the "We dont care about what the rest of the world things" attitude.
Okay im done :)
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I agree.
And just because you disagree with your government doesn\'t mean you aren\'t a patriot. I pity someone who thinks otherwise.
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hamster, will you please refrain from any and all political discussions here?
thanks
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I\'m pro war for one reason. To get Saddam out of power. He\'s running chemical weapons programs and weapons of mass destruction. He also has terrorist ties and will bring some what of an evil on the world. He\'s been causing suffering to his people and needs to be removed for whatever reason. I will state this again, WE DO NOT WANT IRAQ\'S OIL. Sorry if this post doesn\'t make too much sense. I\'ve been tired all day.
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actually, we don\'t NEED iraq\'s oil
the majority of US oil comes from russia, then mexico, then our own fields in alaska
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^^^ Exactly. So to say we are going to war with Iraq to get oil is just plain ignorant.
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If we are in it just for oil, how come we didn\'t take over the oil fields last go-around?
Ace
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and stupid....
but people repeat and spit out what they see on the media
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The media isn\'t always right. Thats why I always check out different sources. They also tend to twist things around.
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Originally posted by mm
actually, we don\'t NEED iraq\'s oil
the majority of US oil comes from russia, then mexico, then our own fields in alaska
I thought the majority of our oil came from venezula, then russia.
*edit* we also get 15% from africa which should be going up to 25% by 2015
*edit edit*
Domestic
39.7%
Imported Oil: 10 Largest Supppliers
%
Persian Gulf
13.7%
Saudi Arabia
8.9%
Iraq
3.2%
Non-Persian Gulf
46.6%
Canada
9.1%
Venezuela
8.2%
Mexico
6.8%
Nigeria
4.7%
Norway
1.9%
Angola
1.7%
Britain
1.6%
Colombia
1.4%
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WE DONT NEED IRAQS OIL....... please thats the point we are going to war because the country is run by a madman who has no quarry about killing his own people let alone dropping a nuke on israel just because he likes to see things go boom. You Europeans who are sooo against this war havent you people had way more terorismn in your country that we have had in our. Wouldnt it be nice to stop it?
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Like Ace said, we would have taken over the oil fields back in the Gulf War if we wanted to. But we don\'t need the oil so there was no need (but for American publicity, I doubt we would have, even if we did need it badly).
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For those that say it isnt entirely or majorly about oil, then answer this logically. Why have we not taken a stronger stance against N.Korea then???
We KNOW they have the nukes, we also KNOW they can do some damage on the west coast, yet no talks of invading them.
Almost forgot, they are on that "axis of evil" list.
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WAHOOO WAHHHO the pain train is coming woman (god thats the best comercial spot ever!) who knows what do I know nothing maybe its all about oil he is from texas isnt he?
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mm, If you don\'t have an argument against me, please dont post pointless replys. k thx.
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Originally posted by luckee
For those that say it isnt entirely or majorly about oil, then answer this logically. Why have we not taken a stronger stance against N.Korea then???
We KNOW they have the nukes, we also KNOW they can do some damage on the west coast, yet no talks of invading them.
Almost forgot, they are on that "axis of evil" list.
I KNOW THE ANSWER!! I KNOW THE ANSWER!!!
B/c North Korea has NO oil?
Am I right??
AM I!?!
True man, everything you said is true. So is everything the other "anti-americans" have said.
Out of topic:
Don\'t you guys have any balls!?
LOL
Im not trying to be mean, but I\'ve seen some of you, if not most of you put some kind of smiley or face after a statement that is clearly an insult. To me, it gives it a "I just dissed you, but this face will make it seem not so bad" kind of feel.
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That way can just say they were playing around without getting banned or looking like the immature asshole.
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^^^
Yep. I\'ve noticed that all the people that call me"immature", "dumbass", blah blah blah. Always use those little faces when posting an insult sometimes.
The only difference between the "immature" ones and the "mature" ones is that the "immature" ones got the
"Balls to say it in front of yall and i dont gotta be false and sugar coating it all"
:) :) :) :) :) :)
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You just quoted Eminem. This thread shall now go to hell.
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Originally posted by luckee
For those that say it isnt entirely or majorly about oil, then answer this logically. Why have we not taken a stronger stance against N.Korea then???
We KNOW they have the nukes, we also KNOW they can do some damage on the west coast, yet no talks of invading them.
Almost forgot, they are on that "axis of evil" list.
Think about it for a couple minutes. I know, it’s going to hurt but humor me for just a second here.
The reason for not having dealt with N. Korea is because they already have nuclear capabilities and are presently using that capability to power some of there cities and towns. The only threat arose when they fired up a nuke facility that was dormant for years. They have not given any logical reasons for doing so thus the US government is concerned. It is a tricky business dealing with a country that has nuclear capabilities versus a country that does not.
It is not about oil! Got it! GOOD!
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Originally posted by Cyrus
WE DONT NEED IRAQS OIL....... please thats the point we are going to war because the country is run by a madman who has no quarry about killing his own people let alone dropping a nuke on israel just because he likes to see things go boom. You Europeans who are sooo against this war havent you people had way more terorismn in your country that we have had in our. Wouldnt it be nice to stop it?
This war is going to stop terrorism?
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No, this war is to get Saddam and his men out of power. We still are tracking Bin Laden but right now I don\'t think we care too much about him. As the saying goes, "there\'s bigger fish to fry". I was reading the play Julius Ceaser in my school. It made me think about the world today. In the play, the conspirators kill Caesar to kill the serpent before it hatches. Basically the analogy is to kill the leader before he causes damage on the world. They killed Caesar before he became a tyrant. We are going to kill Hussein before he uses his weapons on the world.
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I dont know how there is bigger fish to fry when saddam hasnt been responsible 3000+ deaths to the US.
They have not given any logical reasons for doing so thus the US government is concerned.
Uhm they arent the most stable, reasonable, or logical country when it comes to dealing with the US, so im not gonna buy what you said just yet. Why do you think bush and crew are trying to push this missle defense thing through so fast bypassing the legal testing first? They want to station one in alaska and one in california, exactly on the coast where NK is reportedly capable of reaching.
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Originally posted by project86
I love my country and I will support it no matter what.
See, thats what I have a problem with.
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Originally posted by project86
The reason for not having dealt with N. Korea is because they already have nuclear capabilities and are presently using that capability to power some of there cities and towns. The only threat arose when they fired up a nuke facility that was dormant for years. They have not given any logical reasons for doing so thus the US government is concerned. It is a tricky business dealing with a country that has nuclear capabilities versus a country that does not.
Let\'s just forget that whole thing about striking the US first if need be, that business with the Jets flown into S. Korea air space, and that little issue of a missle being fired into international waters between N. Korea and Japan.
The whole controversy is about North Korea\'s decision to fire up a dormant facility. :rolleyes:
IMO, North Korea is like that little kid who you know would get whupped in a fight with you; but you don\'t want to risk pissing off his cousins or risk him going home to get his uncle Stalin\'s old gun. The kid knows this so he always tries to get you to fight him.
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Originally posted by Gohan
See, thats what I have a problem with.
If America ever falls to it\'s knees in defeat it won\'t be because of a greater world power but by the cancer that it has suffered so long now. That cancer is those in this country that do not support the country itself. We may not make all the right decisions but I am a free man to do as I please within the law. You my friend are a part of that cancer.
Is safe to say that if a war broke out here on American soil, you would be one to join the enemy? Or would you then see that a threat to your freedom would bring you to arms against the enemy?
I bet your one of those people that turns the other way when the national anthem is played as to ignor the US flag.
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Originally posted by project86
If America ever falls to it\'s knees in defeat it won\'t be because of a greater world power but by the cancer that it has suffered so long now. That cancer is those in this country that do not support the country itself. We may not make all the right decisions but I am a free man to do as I please within the law. You my friend are a part of that cancer.
Is safe to say that if a war broke out here on American soil, you would be one to join the enemy? Or would you then see that a threat to your freedom would bring you to arms against the enemy?
I bet your one of those people that turns the other way when the national anthem is played as to ignor the US flag.
I\'m a cancer? Wow. Like I said. I support America; but I do not support them no matter what they do. Blind Patriotism is just as bad for the country as no Patriotism. Do you think we would be where we are today if no one ever spoke up and voiced their opinions or disagreements with American policy?
As for the last part of your post. I don\'t know what makes you say that. I said in a much older thread that I would probably be in Iraq now(or wherever US Navy/Marines are stationed) had it not been for politics in Boston. I was lined up to be a midshipman at the Naval Academy (recommendation from the alumni that I had to meet, excellent health, good gpa, high SATs, recommendation from the midshipman overseeing my squad during "pleb" interest week, a nice list of extra-curriculars) but I wasn\'t able to attend because my congressman refused to give me a recommendation(elected official recommendation was required) and in fact wouldn\'t even speak to me before/during/after the process. The only correspondance I ever recieved from Mr Joe Moakley(RIP?) was an invitation to a fundraising dinner to donate to his campaign. Funny huh.
I didn\'t want to enlist because I wanted to go to college and it was already to late for me to apply to be a cadet at West Point, not to mention that all of my time at Navy really got me disliking Army(Anyone ever had a "Go Navy"? Consider yourself lucky.) ;)
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WHAT FREAKING FREEDOM HAVE WE LOST!?!?!?
OUR FREEDOM IS BEING TAKEN AWAY FROM OUR OWN COUNTRY EVERYDAY.
When we least expect it we are all going to live like in that movie Minority Report.
You keep talking about keeping our freedom, how was our freedom affected??
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Some facts about oil seem to be needed here. Let\'s start with imports to the US Ott - US oil imports top 10 (http://www.ott.doe.gov/facts/archives/fotw246.shtml) & The Energy Information Administration (http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/usa.html) . Largest imports of Oil come from Canada, Saudi Arabia, Mexico & Venezuela. But as can be seen on the EIA site the US has been become more dependant on imported oil, producing less oil itself and importing more each year. Which goes some way to explaining why Strikes (http://www.inq7.net/wnw/2002/dec/22/wnw_3-1.htm) in one country can send your Oil prices up (http://www.wisinfo.com/postcrescent/news/archive/local_7917794.shtml) .
As for the oil from Russia, that\'s still sometime in the future. As can be seen from this news article Khilafah (http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=6017&TagID=2) . Also look on the right-hand side of this site for some news stories which you might not normally see.
Now for the killer, oil reserves. Sure you can get your oil else where, but for how long? Here are the top ten oil reserves Ott - Top 10 (http://www.ott.doe.gov/facts/archives/fotw201.shtml) . Notice the top 5 there. If you can\'t see what they have in common Look at this (http://www.travel.com.hk/region/meastmap.htm) . As for the rest of the world it\'s back to The EIA (http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/iea/table81.html) . As you maybe able to tell the rest of the world would most likely use up their reserves before that of the countrys in the Middle East, with them having more than 50% of the oil reserves in the world.
So it wouldn\'t be beyond possibilities (that some here don\'t seem to see, or wish to admit to) that oil could be a major factor in all this. Especially seeing as the US is by far the largest consumer in the world (http://www.geohive.com/charts/energy_oilcons.php). Also has to make you wonder when an Americian analyst says that the WORST thing Saddam could do is light the oil wells in Iraq.
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Are you new?
Man, I like you already. How long did it take to find all that info?
Welcome!
For what you just did, you can officially call me your friend!!!
It\'s a good thing, even though some people here dont think it is. :)
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Oils is an economic concern, yes, but to think oil is the deciding factor in all this is simplistic at best.
We may be the largest consumer but we are also one of their best customers.
Ace
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Just to play Devil\'s Advocate, what is wrong with going to war for oil?
The US uses the most oil in the world. Europe uses 82% of the amount we use and they import about the same amount as us. The Asian-Pacific uses 19% of the worlds oil w/ China alone using 7%. Oil is a global market. If Oil prices rise in one country, they tend to rise worldwide(excluding price gouging and things like that). Oil is used in almost every market from Automobile use/manufacturing to the tech industry.
So knowing all this. Is it wrong to go to war to protect a standard of living that the world is used to? I don\'t know about the rest of you but I\'ll be damned if I have to pay $2.50/gallon for my big American SUV. I\'ll go get Saddam myself if that happens.
/Devil\'s Advocate
Still, Ace is right. It is simplistic to say that the war is only about oil just like it is simplistic to say the war is about removing an evil dictator. It is a little of both. However, you have to take the past into account and understand that very few wars in history have been over anything other than monetary gain. From the Crusades to the Gulf War its pretty much all the same.
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I wouldn\'t say its just simplistic, I\'d say its ignorant. Why would we take Iraq oil fields when we can sign treaties with places like Nigeria or buy more from Russia. Maybe we will take some oil while we are there but we aren\'t going to war just to get oil otherwise we\'ll just take the whole middle east.
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Hey man, but think about it. If they were to go into Iraq and beat the shit out of them. The oil would be FREE, FREE oil is a good thing, why pay for oil when you can go into another country that not many people like, kick the shit out of them, and keep it??
Ohh, and the price of oil has just gone up very high b/c of the cold weather.
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
Hey man, but think about it. If they were to go into Iraq and beat the shit out of them. The oil would be FREE, FREE oil is a good thing, why pay for oil when you can go into another country that not many people like, kick the shit out of them, and keep it??
Ohh, and the price of oil has just gone up very high b/c of the cold weather.
SirMystiq in the political forum... :rolleyes:
and giving out welcomes :rolleyes:
So Mystiq what freedoms have you lost??? Name one. I dare ya.
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Giga is back..
and giving out shit...
I haven\'t lost not a single freedom. I never said I lost freedom. I just said that if we are losing any kind of freedom it\'s going to be our own fault, not other peoples actions.
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
Hey man, but think about it. If they were to go into Iraq and beat the shit out of them. The oil would be FREE, FREE oil is a good thing, why pay for oil when you can go into another country that not many people like, kick the shit out of them, and keep it??
Ohh, and the price of oil has just gone up very high b/c of the cold weather.
WTF? It wouldn\'t be free. The government doesn\'t regulate any kind of company. That would be a merchantalist policy if they did. Companies like Mobil would take the oil fields (which I think they run them anyway) and they will still charge money. And do you know why the oil goes up in the winter? They add something to the gas for some reason (seriously, I don\'t know what but its true. something about emissions) and make it more expensive. It happens every year. Its not a big deal.