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Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Ace on March 10, 2003, 05:47:42 AM
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quote:
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March 10, 2003
Blix \'hid smoking gun\' from Britain and US
From James Bone in New York
BRITAIN and the United States will today press the chief UN weapons inspector to admit that he has found a “smoking gun” in Iraq. Such an admission could persuade swing voters on the Security Council to back the March 17 ultimatum.
The British and US ambassadors plan to demand that Hans Blix reveals more details of a huge undeclared Iraqi unmanned aircraft, the discovery of which he failed to mention in his oral report to Security Council foreign ministers on Friday. Its existence was only disclosed in a declassified 173-page document circulated by the inspectors at the end of the meeting — an apparent attempt by Dr Blix to hide the revelation to avoid triggering a war.
The discovery of the drone, which has a wingspan of 7.45 metres, will make it much easier for waverers on the Security Council to accept US and British arguments that Iraq has failed to meet UN demands that it disarm.
“It’s incredible,” a senior diplomat from a swing voter on the council said. “This report is going to have a clearly defined impact on the people who are wavering. It’s a biggie.”
An explicit report by Dr Blix of the discovery of an Iraqi violation would help the six swing voters — Angola, Cameroon, Chile, Guinea, Mexico and Pakistan — to explain a change of position to their publics.
Unlike the outlawed Al-Samoud 2 missile, which was declared as a purportedly legal weapon, the drone was not declared. It would be the first undeclared weapons programme found by the UN and is considered by British and US officials to be a “smoking gun”.
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It doesn\'t sound like Mr. Blix understands his job description.
Ace
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Got a link on this?
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Originally posted by luckee
Got a link on this?
Don\'t trust me? ;)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-605557,00.html
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I wanted to see if there was anything else or related stories. Like the backround of the drone.
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What does the drone do?
Is it a spy plane?
Can it carry weapons?
Is it a drone like the V1?
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yeah because a The discovery of the drone, which has a wingspan of 7.45 metres is clearly a reason to goto war :rolleyes:
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ooseven,
I have the feeling it would not matter what they found in Iraq, you would say it is not enough.
The point about this is Blix is a tool and there is a lot we don\'t know about what Saddam is hiding from the so called inspectors.
Ace
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Ooseven there are two reasons why this is important.
A) Undeclared equipment has been found. Meaning there is a very strong chance of other equipment. Including thousands of pounds of chemical and biological agents that apparently you like.
B) What else has Blix done to show bias in his presentations? Is there anything else they have found that they aren\'t telling us?
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Originally posted by Ace
ooseven,
I have the feeling it would not matter what they found in Iraq, you would say it is not enough.
The point about this is Blix is a tool and there is a lot we don\'t know about what Saddam is hiding from the so called inspectors.
Ace
its not good enough.. because this is not about WoMD.. and Everything about Revenge.
Saddam is Our monster... we made him and kept him in a possition of power, and its only since 9/11 that we have decided that his time is up.
yes Saddam is evil.. yes he must be toppeld ... but to invade a country and cause wide spread Condemnation amung the Islamic World... is NOT the way to do it.
mark my words.. the very second we launch the attack is the very second were we lose the war on terror... as 1000\'s of terrorists will be born the replace and Tyrants killed in Iraq.
Result... Unstable Middle East ... more hatred for the West (UK & US)
and Vid...as for this evidence being good enough ?...
are you willing to have the potential for US or UK troops to be killed over a very small Spy plane and 100 missiles (< 80 now because they are bing dismantled)with a extra 20 mile range ?
i am sorry... its still not good enough !
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What is good enough for you?
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Originally posted by ooseven
its not good enough.. because this is not about WoMD.. and Everything about Revenge.
Saddam is Our monster... we made him and kept him in a possition of power, and its only since 9/11 that we have decided that his time is up.
That\'s right, do nothing to spite ourselves. Doesn\'t sound like a good plan to me and I am not willing to be bombed etc because of what you believe as our mistake.
Originally posted by ooseven
yes Saddam is evil.. yes he must be toppeld ... but to invade a country and cause wide spread Condemnation amung the Islamic World... is NOT the way to do it.
My contention is we are already in their sites. No need to worry about something that\'s already true!
Originally posted by ooseven
mark my words.. the very second we launch the attack is the very second were we lose the war on terror... as 1000\'s of terrorists will be born the replace and Tyrants killed in Iraq.
Result... Unstable Middle East ... more hatred for the West (UK & US)
I would say the Middle East is already unstable because of the likes of Saddam. Terrorists are being replaced now. No sense in doing nothing and taking in the chin again because of inaction.
Originally posted by ooseven
and Vid...as for this evidence being good enough ?...
are you willing to have the potential for US or UK troops to be killed over a very small Spy plane and 100 missiles (< 80 now because they are bing dismantled)with a extra 20 mile range ?
i am sorry... its still not good enough !
No, it\'s the larger weapons you seem to believe that he doesn\'t have in his arsenal.
Ace
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
What is good enough for you?
oh how about the weapons inspectors obatining air/water/ or soil samples which indecate recent or heavy Weapons grade (plutonium/ Chemical agent/ Biological Agent), that prove without shadow of douht that there was a active and progressive weapons programme which has been gathering pace over the past 4 years (since 1998).
i am sorry but Flimsy Spy Plane and Missiles with go faster stripes do NOT = smoking Gun.
we need Concrete evidence.. Remember we are threateing to goto war...
the Stakes ARE Very High.
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Originally posted by ooseven
the Stakes ARE Very High.
Yes the stakes are high and I am happy that we have leaders that, to this point, have the spines to do what no one else is willing to do to protect us.
Ace
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Originally posted by Ace
Yes the stakes are high and I am happy that we have leaders that, to this point, have the spines to do what no one else is willing to do to protect us.
Ace
protect US ?
WTF
do you realy think Saddam is a threat to us ?
to his Neighbours YES...
But to US ... no....
please explain why you think this ?
:confused:
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9/11
OBL was in Afghanistan. But he touched us.
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quote:
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November 1, 2002
Sending in a dupe to disarm Saddam
Per Ahlmark
The U.N. weapons inspection chief and Iraq have agreed on tentative terms for the conduct of weapons inspections, which in theory could begin as early as two weeks from now. But the success of any such deal depends as much on the men who will carry out the inspections as on the details of when, where, and how they are carried out.
Hans Blix will head the U.N. arms inspectors charged with searching for, finding and destroying Saddam Hussein\'s weapons of mass destruction. I have known Mr. Blix for more than 40 years. In 1960, he was my deputy when I was a leader of the Swedish Liberal Youth organization. Since then I have followed his career closely. He became Sweden\'s foreign minister for a year and was later a director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna, Austria.
Personally, Mr. Blix is amiable and has a sense of humor; politically he is weak and easily fooled. I can think of few European officials less suitable for a showdown with Saddam. Indeed, it is with utter disbelief that I watch television news about Mr. Blix\'s negotiations with the Iraqi dictator\'s henchmen.
The world has been amply warned about Mr. Blix\'s weaknesses because he has a track record of compounded failure. When Mr. Blix headed the IAEA before the Persian Gulf war of 1991, he blithely assured the world, after several inspections, that nothing alarming was happening in Iraq. He delivered the clean bill of health that Saddam had hoped for when he began hiding his atomic factories and nuclear ambitions.
Since then, we have learnt all too unambiguously that Saddam is obsessed with procuring weapons of mass destruction — chemical and biological warheads as well as atomic bombs and the missiles to deliver them.
Former experts of Iraq\'s nuclear weapons program, who have fled Baghdad for the West, confirmed this. They told us about determined and costly efforts to obtain doomsday devices. Indeed, it is now clear that Saddam was but a year away from securing his first atomic bomb when the Gulf war broke out.
After that war, U.N. inspectors found and destroyed huge amounts of chemical and biological warheads as well as the facilities to produce nuclear weapons. Despite his grave failings as IAEA chief before 1991, Mr. Blix once again came to lead U.N. disarmament inspectors, this time in tandem with another Swede, Ambassador Rolf Ekeus.
Mr. Blix, naive and relatively ignorant about technical details — his field is international law — is easily mislead. Even after the Gulf war, he failed to realize that the Iraqi officials, who were again assuring the U.N. that they were hiding nothing, were but consummate liars. Indeed, Mr. Blix believed that Iraq had no program at all for nuclear arms. David Kay, perhaps the most effective arms inspector, insisted that he did not trust them. But Mr. Blix reproached Mr. Kay for his attitude. You must believe in official information, Mr. Blix implied.
The turning point came when Mr. Kay initiated inspections of suspect buildings without notifying the Iraqis about his intentions in advance. This new, aggressive inspection strategy had dramatic consequences: Mr. Kay discovered material confirming that Iraq was only 12 to 18 months away from producing a nuclear device.
This historic discovery ended up in a confrontation at a parking lot in Baghdad. The U.N. cars were surrounded by 200 Iraqi soldiers and a mob, ordered out to the scene by Iraqi officials. For four days and nights the siege continued, as Mr. Kay and his colleagues used satellite telephones to fax crucial documents to the West.
Mr. Blix had opposed the raid. Fortunately, Mr. Ekeus backed it and supported the inspectors during the siege. I have met a number of experts on Iraq\'s weapons of mass destruction, and they often compare the two Swedes: "Ekeus is brilliant," they say, "Blix is terrible."
When the current U.N. inspection team was being put together in 1999, both Mr. Ekeus and Mr. Blix were among the candidates being considered to head the new group of inspectors. Friends of Iraq in Paris and Moscow consulted Baghdad to see whom Saddam would prefer. France and Russia then suggested Mr. Blix. Surprisingly the Clinton administration accepted that decision.
Saddam\'s chemical and biological arms, and his determination to get nuclear weapons, are a threat to the world. The dictator could use these arms himself or make them available to terrorist organizations.
And the issue of war and peace depends on a man repeatedly duped the Iraqi regime.
The Bush administration probably understands Mr. Blix\'s weaknesses. My guess is that the United States will not allow Mr. Blix and the inspectors that he oversees to be deceived by Iraq again. Regardless of how this crisis develops from this point, the United Nations has neglected its duties by asking a wimp to lead the inspectors who are supposed to stand up to the brute of Baghdad.
Per Ahlmark is a former deputy prime minister of Sweden. Copyright Project Syndicate.
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How about this ooseven,
Saddam infuses terrorist organizations with money and weapons. Said terrorists use said weapons to kill us.
Ace
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
9/11
OBL was in Afghanistan. But he touched us.
And ?
:confused:
look i would like someone to explain why people think OBL and Co... will run the risks of...
- going to Iraq qith out being stopped by Patrolling US & UK forces or being shot by the Iraqi Border Patrol.
- Then try to obtain WoMD from Saddam who has placed a Bounty on OBL head.
- Run the risk of trying to strike a deal with Saddam to by any WoMD without being killed.
- Then try and smuggle the WoMD out of iraq, and indoing so trying to avoid Iraqi Patrols in Iraq and US & UK forces once outside of iraq.
- Then Try and smuggle the WoMD & Personel into the US, during a time when if you fart the wrong way the US admin boost the Terror aleart for a whole week.
- Then select a traget and try carry out an attack with out being caught.
and Ace and Co still think they are a threat to the US......:rolleyes:
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This is why I don\'t discuss this anymore. Those of us that think the war is justified will never understand the pacifist attitudes portrayed by those who don\'t. I swear I think ooseven is Chamberlan reincarnated. ;)
Appeasement and containment are not the answers.
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The point is that Saddam CAN reach us - one way or another. Thay\'s why I brought up OBL! Damn, boy! Don\'t you see my point? Or are you just ignoring it? "Can\'t harm the US..."
dillussional.
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Originally posted by ooseven
And ?
:confused:
look i would like someone to explain why people think OBL and Co... will run the risks of...
- going to Iraq qith out being stopped by Patrolling US & UK forces or being shot by the Iraqi Border Patrol.
- Then try to obtain WoMD from Saddam who has placed a Bounty on OBL head.
- Run the risk of trying to strike a deal with Saddam to by any WoMD without being killed.
- Then try and smuggle the WoMD out of iraq, and indoing so trying to avoid Iraqi Patrols in Iraq and US & UK forces once outside of iraq.
- Then Try and smuggle the WoMD & Personel into the US, during a time when if you fart the wrong way the US admin boost the Terror aleart for a whole week.
- Then select a traget and try carry out an attack with out being caught.
and Ace and Co still think they are a threat to the US......:rolleyes: [/B]
Bounty on Bin Ladens head????? Where did you get that rumor from?
Oh and Osama and Company have attacked US troops already in Kuwait.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Appeasement and containment are not the answers.
Nor will the "lets Wave a Blow torch next to this open barrel of Petrol" Approch that Bush and Co wants.
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Per Ahlmark also says that everyone who criticises Isreal is a anti-Semite.
Per is a angry old deluded man.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Bounty on Bin Ladens head????? Where did you get that rumor from?
Oh and Osama and Company have attacked US troops already in Kuwait.
its common knowlage over there that OBL and Saddam have "bountys" on each others heads...
in fact if you know your history.
during the First Gulff War OBL wanted to travel to Saudi Arbia to muster a force to repell the Iraqi invasion.
in short
OBL wants to see Saddam Dead
Saddam wants to see OBL Dead
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Originally posted by ooseven
its common knowlage over there that OBL and Saddam have "bountys" on each others heads...
in fact if you know your history.
during the First Gulff War OBL wanted to travel to Saudi Arbia to muster a force to repell the Iraqi invasion.
in short
OBL wants to see Saddam Dead
Saddam wants to see OBL Dead
I want to see a source on this so called bounty. Even IF there was one, I doubt it is still in effect.
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
The point is that Saddam CAN reach us - one way or another. Thay\'s why I brought up OBL! Damn, boy! Don\'t you see my point? Or are you just ignoring it? "Can\'t harm the US..."
dillussional.
but How ?
how is it logistically possible to arm any terrorists when we have a massive (even before the current build-up) monitoring the Iraqi’s EVERY move?
this containment includes
two no fly-zones
Satellite and on the ground intelligence
a naval task force in the Gulf
and a string of UN (now filled with US & UK Troops) along the demilitarised Zone.
Please.. i might be a little slow so why don\'t you outline how this could happen.
heck draw a map if need be.....:confused:
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Originally posted by ooseven
but How ?
how is it logistically possible to arm any terrorists when we have a massive (even before the current build-up) monitoring the Iraqi’s EVERY move?
this containment includes
two no fly-zones
Satellite and on the ground intelligence
a naval task force in the Gulf
and a string of UN (now filled with US & UK Troops) along the demilitarised Zone.
Please.. i might be a little slow so why don\'t you outline how this could happen.
heck draw a map if need be.....:confused:
This is very simple ooseven. Through Jordan or Iran. Both of which buffer Iraq where there is not a "no fly zone". It is very easy to smuggle weapons out of countries like this.
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Originally posted by Ace
That might be true, but he has been dead on when it comes to Blix.
Yes, he\'s dead on if he said Blix wont bend over.
Boy did Blix ever give Powell a smack in the face :D
Ahlmark has no credibility. He\'s a "en betald penna" (writes whatever his masters want him to write).
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
I want to see a source on this so called bounty. Even IF there was one, I doubt it is still in effect.
I doubt it is still in effect. ???....look
Both men have actually tried to kill each other over the years...
you couldn\'t get a bigger division of Ideas and fundamental values between the two men
OBL = Ultra Hard-line Islamic Fundamentalist who wants to see the downfall of the west and the creation of a islamic super state... he also wants the downfall of Saddam and the rise of a Taliban style Iraqi goverment.
Saddam = Evil manipulative B@stard tyrant with “personal” (as in he likes to actually personally torture prisoners) human right abuses as long as your arm....He also want something special for iraq.. but his view is not a islamic super state... but for him to dominate the Middle east...
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
This is very simple ooseven. Through Jordan or Iran. Both of which buffer Iraq where there is not a "no fly zone". It is very easy to smuggle weapons out of countries like this.
Through Jordan.. who\'s Goverment might bring it into the "axis of Evil" or at least make it an Associate of the "Axis of Evil"...
lets face it when it comes to all things Saddam... the goverment of Jordan will do all in their power and then some not to make it onto the USA\'s SH!t list...
and As for IRAN .....
:laughing: nice one....
sorry but please try and remember there was a long and bloody war between Iran/ Iraq.....
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Originally posted by ooseven
I doubt it is still in effect. ???....look
Both men have actually tried to kill each other over the years...
you couldn\'t get a bigger division of Ideas and fundamental values between the two men
OBL = Ultra Hard-line Islamic Fundamentalist who wants to see the downfall of the west and the creation of a islamic super state... he also wants the downfall of Saddam and the rise of a Taliban style Iraqi goverment.
Saddam = Evil manipulative B@stard tyrant with “personal” (as in he likes to actually personally torture prisoners) human right abuses as long as your arm....He also want something special for iraq.. but his view is not a islamic super state... but for him to dominate the Middle east...
I never said they didn\'t disagree politically and fundamentally, but I still want to see the ficticious bounty that you claim exists.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
I never said they didn\'t disagree politically and fundamentally, but I still want to see the ficticious bounty that you claim exists.
oh i am sorry i don\'t have access to the Iraqi & Al quida high command databases...
the simple fact is that this "bounty" dose exsist..
OBL has promised his followers that if they kill saddam and fall in the process they will be rewarded in the next life. FACT !!!
and
Saddam has Promised financal rewards for the troops or local commander who hunts down and kills OBL or co..
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Originally posted by ooseven
Through Jordan.. who\'s Goverment might bring it into the "axis of Evil" or at least make it an Associate of the "Axis of Evil"...
lets face it when it comes to all things Saddam... the goverment of Jordan will do all in their power and then some not to make it onto the USA\'s SH!t list...
and As for IRAN .....
:laughing: nice one....
sorry but please try and remember there was a long and bloody war between Iran/ Iraq.....
Do I have to spell out every detail? They smuggle weapons - meaning the governments of Iran and Jordan either:
A. Aren\'t aware of it due to border guards being paid off etc...
B. Are aware, but turn a blind eye.
C. Actually help smugglers, but don\'t acknowledge it.
Also the Iran/Iraq War isn\'t as big of a deal as you think it is. Remember the Iraqi jets that flew into Iran to avoid being destroyed in the Gulf War???
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Originally posted by ooseven
oh i am sorry i don\'t have access to the Iraqi & Al quida high command databases...
the simple fact is that this "bounty" dose exsist..
OBL has promised his followers that if they kill saddam and fall in the process they will be rewarded in the next life. FACT !!!
and
Saddam has Promised financal rewards for the troops or local commander who hunts down and kills OBL or co..
You claim it is a well known fact... if it is so "well known" you would have a source for your claim.
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their is no specific source to corobirate a bounty, but one thing is for sure OBL and saddam despise each other.
and infact according to a former saudi intelligence official, one of the reasons that obl hates america as well as the saudi government is coz he was\'nt allowed to form an army of mujahideen and help liberate kuwait from saddam\'s clutches.
and as for the iran/iraq war not being a big deal comment, that cant be farther away from the truth.
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Back on topic...
The drone found is thought to have capabilities to attack w/ chemical and biological weapons...
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Taliban-style government...
What a load of crap...
The Taliban banned photography and Bin Laden filmed his son\'s wedding...
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This just shows me how much time heals wounds. If a terrorist hit the US today we would nail whoever hit us just like we did to Afghanistan. After 9/11 we said we were going to make it very hard to be a terrorist. And we have done very well so far. We are about to continue our efforts by nailing a very rich "potential" supplier of weapons. Saddam is a terrible man and needs to be dealt with. It\'s almost like we need someone to get hit by a terrorist again to justify taking this terrorist out.
My wife was let go from her job a couple weeks ago. Totally uncalled for dismissal and the guy is a major asshole in everything he did to her. Right afterwards she was mad. She wanted to talk to an attorney and the EEOC. Well now she has a different job and doesn\'t want to even bother with doing anything. The guy owes us over a grand. It\'s the same damn thing that is happening in the world. She has a new job and everything is hunky dory so this guy gets away with treating her like shit.
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Originally posted by Tyrant
and as for the iran/iraq war not being a big deal comment, that cant be farther away from the truth.
Really? Talk to any Iranians lately? I know a few personally who have family over there and they have no grudge against the Iraqi people. The point I am trying to make is when it comes the US, both Iraq and Iran don\'t like us equally. Also ooseven, don\'t think for a second weapons aren\'t smuggled in and out of Iraq. You are naive to even think so.
As for your bounty comment, I am still waiting for a source. It is common knowledge Saddam and Bin Laden despise each other, but when it comes to US there is the possiblility of them putting aside their differences and working together.
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I have read numerous reports that Al Queda terrorists are in Baghdad right now waiting for their next trick against the US.
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I just read that Blix actually DID note this in a earlier report..
Of course then the war-m.. ops.. I mean US:ies did not even care about it.
/me reckons this is a trick to paint Blix as incompetent and stop the inspections.
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Link please or is it in Swedish?
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Svedisch.
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I can\'t find anything in english.
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Anyone know if his reports are available online?
I could have a look.
I can\'t find anything in english.
I don’t think the media took any notice of it then.
Ill see if I can lurk out his earlier reports.
They should be public right?
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Really? Talk to any Iranians lately?
yes i have, many of whom have lost loved ones in the war. they may not hold a grudge against Iraq .but when it comes to saddam its a whole different story
Originally posted by GigaShadow
As for your bounty comment, I am still waiting for a source. It is common knowledge Saddam and Bin Laden despise each other, but when it comes to US there is the possiblility of them putting aside their differences and working together.
i believe that not even their common hatred towards the U.S would be enough to bring them together.
as for a source for the bounty, after searching thru the net all i could find was a report written in arabic which vaguley mentioned a bounty.