PSX5Central
Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: luckee on March 19, 2003, 06:59:16 PM
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Watched ABC here in South FLorida and from the coverage..there is certainly fighting going on...
updates when I get something definitive.
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CNN says the US launched a cruise missile into Baghdad to hit a "Target of opportunity."
8:32 central time, Iraq sounded sirens. Iraq fired off a lot of anti-aircraft fire.
Ari Fleischer: "The opening stages of the disarmament of Iraq have begun."
President to speak at 9:15. Blair at 9:30. (~15 and 30 minutes, respectively.)
My mom says the end is near.
I think it\'s cool.
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heh..beat me to it :D
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Originally posted by luckee
heh..beat me to it :D
I win :D
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well, I have a feeling if we shoot a nuclear weapon at Iraq that we\'ll go into Code Red. War is inevitable, but neccessary at this point.
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Originally posted by The Hurricane
War is inevitable, but neccessary at this point.
Thats all relative.
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I have personally made a point of avoiding this forum for various reasons. However, at this time I would like to say something.
Tonight we went to war. Whether we here were for peace or war, against Saddam, against America, whatever, please remember that in war, there are no winners. It is a shame that things had to come this far, no matter what the reasons were.
Tonight, my thoughts and prayers are with the civilians of Iraq, especially Baghdad. They will be experiencing as horrible a situation as anyone, and unlike the troops on both sides, they didn\'t sign up for it. In a nation where almost half of the population is children, I can only hope this war ends with as few of them being harmed as possible.
In addition, my thoughts and prayers are with the members of both armies. Whether I agree with their cause or not, these people are out there, putting their lives on the line for what they truly believe in. There is little that is more honorable than that. So to the soldiers, whether American, British, Iraqi, whatever, I salute you. It is unfortunate that you had to be moved to such a situation by the actions of politicians, many of whom do not have the honor and courage to do what you are doing for your country at this time.
Whether pro war or anti war, I hope that everyone here can at least agree with this.
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Bravo Shocky. I knew I liked you for some reason. :D
Seriously though. That is a very good post you made. I\'d like to see more of your posts here since they are so well thought usually. Even though we dont always agree, please post in here more!!!
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I may. I\'ve actually been posting at psx2c less overall lately. I\'ve been very busy with things in the real world (go figure), and my online time has gone much more towards the forums I admin (n64cc). Political discussions usually take a lot more time and energy, so I haven\'t really made my way into this forum much. I\'ll spot back in though. If I get more free time, I\'m sure I\'ll kill some of it here.
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shockwaves: Amen
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The left has taken over the forum ;)
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Originally posted by M4
My mom says the end is near.
I think it\'s cool.
are you serious ?
This is real life and not some Video Game !
People are going to DIE ! and you think its COOL ?
/me walks away shaking his head
:mad: :rpissed:
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Originally posted by shockwaves
So to the soldiers, whether American, British, Iraqi, whatever, I salute you.
Iraqi? WTF... :mad:
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wonderful post shock :).
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Lets pray for our troops and our allies. The Iraqi troops are on their own. No one wants to see civilians die, that\'s pretty much a given. You know sure as hell that we will do our best to keep civilian casualties to a minimum. I cannot say the same for our enemy.
Some of the Iraqi people are getting a little more vocal about us coming in to there country. They are now waiting for the Americans to come in and liberate them from the grip of Saddam.
Lets also pray that the our land will be safe from terrorists attacks. This is my biggest worry. We will win in Iraq but we are always going to be vulnerable to terrorism.
Ace
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Originally posted by Ace
Lets pray for our troops and our allies. The Iraqi troops are on their own. No one wants to see civilians die, that\'s pretty much a given. You know sure as hell that we will do our best to keep civilian casualties to a minimum. I cannot say the same for our enemy.
Some of the Iraqi people are getting a little more vocal about us coming in to there country. They are now waiting for the Americans to come in and liberate them from the grip of Saddam.
Lets also pray that the our land will be safe from terrorists attacks. This is my biggest worry. We will win in Iraq but we are always going to be vulnerable to terrorism.
Ace
I agree, the Iraqi troops are on their own when it comes to "prayers". This is war and as Americans you shouldn\'t have the luxury to straddle the fence. This war will effect every American and to "pray" for (let alone praise) enemy troops is sickening.
If you really do feel for the enemy troops you are either - 1)anti American or 2) really detached from your own citizenship.
I try not to think in such black and white terms on things, but with war involving your own country you can\'t sit in the middle. These are times when regardless of how you feel about the President and the war itself, you must support the "home" team.
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Okay, I\'m with Shockey in the fact that I have been avoiding this forum for a while. I check in from time to time to read, but have decided to keep my views to myself.
Although I understand why people are against war for any reason, I must say I disagree. I think, if the US has any sense, that we will prevail and we will do it as best we can without many casualties to the Citizens of Iraq. I know some are going to happen and I feel regret over that, but something has to be done. I feel that Iraq has been hiding arms, the scuds shot just yesterday are proof of that, and if they do have Biological warfare available to them, then the entire world, not just America, is in harms way. If any of those things get out of hand, we could be looking at a widespread global destruction through airbourne viruses. This is not a laughing matter nor is it "Cool". I believe they are going to go in and take the objective of getting rid of the regime. Then piecing Iraq back together with a democracy where the people can and will have rights to vote and live life to the fullest.
If there is any other objective behind this, then I seriously hope those things are brought to the forefront and taken care of immediatly. I believe the Bush administration won\'t do more than what they have described. If they do, the entire world is watching and I do not want to see what would happen in the unlikely event that we take things too far.
As far as the French and the rest of the world who are against us... that is their opinion. Though people up top may say that this will seriously hurt future relations, I still believe that if one of those countries that despise us were to get into trouble, we would be there to help them out. I also believe that if something were to deriously cripple the US that they would return the favor as well. I know people in here have stated that they "Hate the French" I am sorry to see that. Yes, they helped us train for fighting against the British, but they didn\'t have to. No, helping us train did not win or lose the war for us, but the biggest boost came when the French Navy occupied the waters in the Atlantic Ocean allowing us to trp the British in between the American Colonists and the French. They were pinned in at that point and therefore they were unable to break free to win. Had they not been there, we may have still won, but it would\'ve taken much longer than it did, or quite possibly Tony Blair could very well be our Supreme leader at this very moment.... or for that matter maybe one of Hitler\'s relatives.
Now, We retruned the favor in WWII and freed the french from the German occupation. We did a job and helped out our allies. We would do it again if we had to. That is just the way we are. I still believe regardless of what the french think of us, we are still going to be there for them, and I believe that if the occasion ever were to arise they would be there for us in time of major crises.
I guess what it comes down to is, people have their opinions. I believe that Bush is correct and I believe that we are doing what needs to be done. I hope that I am on the side that is right and based on very well recorded intelligence. If we happen to be wrong, I hate to see what could possibly hppen. This is not a game and there is no resetting the system and restarting the game.
I hope that once this is over that we rebuild Iraq and hand over the government back to the Iraqi people and we leave them in better overall shape then they ever were. No matter what the cost to our country.
Brad
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Giga...The Iraqi soldiers are still humans as well. Some are there for what they truely believe in, for which I can respect no matter how evil it is. It is more than alot of ppl are willing to do. They are willing to die for their beliefs. That takes a very strong person.
Some are there b/c they have been brainwashed and I feel sorry for them, yet they are still humans.
Then you have some that are forced to be involved even if they dont want to. I feel sorry for them as well since they cant just up and tell saddem no. Those are probably the ones surrendering..alas, they are still humans.
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There are some reports that these countries are saying one thing in public to satisfy there population and something very different to the administration. So when you hear this country says we should stop, take it with a grain of salt.
By the way, Brad and shockwaves, you guys should post here more often. It might raise the blood pressure a bit, though.
Ace
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I only post when I feel I need to speak my peace. I will only post a well thought out post and not something based on anger or nonsense. I like to have fun and poke fun at everything and anything, and probably will laugh at this war many months after it is over, but right now while the fate of so many is at stake and while the Iraqi citizens are going through somethign I hope to God I never have to see on my home soil, I will stay very serious and tactful in my views.
For the most part though, I don\'t like to argue my points just to argue my points. But thank you for your thoughts.
Brad
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
I agree, the Iraqi troops are on their own when it comes to "prayers". This is war and as Americans you shouldn\'t have the luxury to straddle the fence. This war will effect every American and to "pray" for (let alone praise) enemy troops is sickening.
If you really do feel for the enemy troops you are either - 1)anti American or 2) really detached from your own citizenship.
I try not to think in such black and white terms on things, but with war involving your own country you can\'t sit in the middle. These are times when regardless of how you feel about the President and the war itself, you must support the "home" team.
I feel for the enemy troops.I feel for the U.S. troops.
What does that make me?
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
I agree, the Iraqi troops are on their own when it comes to "prayers". This is war and as Americans you shouldn\'t have the luxury to straddle the fence. This war will effect every American and to "pray" for (let alone praise) enemy troops is sickening.
If you really do feel for the enemy troops you are either - 1)anti American or 2) really detached from your own citizenship.
I try not to think in such black and white terms on things, but with war involving your own country you can\'t sit in the middle. These are times when regardless of how you feel about the President and the war itself, you must support the "home" team.
My thoughts and prayers are with whoever is in such a dire situation in this conflict. Remember what things in Iraq are like. Many of them might be ignorant to the situation in other nations or to the purpose of the war. They may have just been told that what they are doing is right, and thus they are doing it. Some may be in the army by force, and are only doing what they have to do to survive. Some might just truly think they are fighting for a good cause. Whatever their reason is, they are doing something admirable in fighting and putting their lives on the line, no matter what the reason.
So yes, my prayers are with the soldiers on both sides. I am not asking for the Iraqi soldiers to be successful in killing Americans. I\'m asking that they survive this war. I just would like as few people to die in this war as possible. Is that so horrible? I\'m not saying I want them to win the war, I\'m just saying that I don\'t wish death on them. If that\'s unamerican than I don\'t want to be American by your definition.
As for sitting in the middle, my personal views are not in the middle at all. I am very much against the war, and will continue to protest it. However, I do make a distinction. I\'m anti war. I\'m against the politicians that put us in this situation. I am not anti soldier. I can\'t begin to tell you how much I respect the American troops over there in the middle east, even if I may not agree with the cause they fight for.
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We aren\'t going to have this debate again. Personally, I have no clue as to why any anti war person would still think war was avoidable. He wasn\'t supposed to have SCUDs but he does. I am sure in the next few days more weapons that he "doesn\'t" have will surface.
The only Iraqi\'s I feel sorry for are those that don\'t want to fight, but have been too scared to do anything about it short of this invasion. So a blanket statement that is sending prayers out to Iraqi soldiers is offensive to me.
Also the only "politician/dictator" that put us in this situation is Saddam. All he had to do was get rid of some weapons and this never would have happened. I don\'t take your convictions as a personal affront shockwaves and it doesn\'t diminish your validity in this forum from my viewpoint. Just as Core hates to see the conservative rhetoric posted here, I hate the exact opposite, which is why I have not replied to every post that I felt like replying to.
My view on the Iraqi troop situation is better them than us and being realistic, casualties are going to happen on both sides - I hope you understand where I am coming from when I say this. After the war is over I hope a better life awaits every Iraqi who has suffered under that tyrant.
SirMystiq, your **** Bush statements haven\'t earned you any points.
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Originally posted by luckee
Giga...The Iraqi soldiers are still humans as well. Some are there for what they truely believe in, for which I can respect no matter how evil it is. It is more than alot of ppl are willing to do. They are willing to die for their beliefs. That takes a very strong person.
Some are there b/c they have been brainwashed and I feel sorry for them, yet they are still humans.
Then you have some that are forced to be involved even if they dont want to. I feel sorry for them as well since they cant just up and tell saddem no. Those are probably the ones surrendering..alas, they are still humans.
So basically a fanatical Nazi in say the SS Totenkopf would earn your respect because he would be fighting for what he believed in? Iraqi\'s aren\'t evil, but Saddam and family (ie. his sons) are.
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If you don\'t want to have this conversation, don\'t. I feel this war was more than avoidable, I feel we were the agressor, I feel that Bush, not Saddam, is responsible for this war, but I\'m not here to argue that. I simply don\'t want any more people dead than necessary. If that is offensive to you, then oh well. It\'s what I feel.
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Originally posted by shockwaves
If you don\'t want to have this conversation, don\'t. I feel this war was more than avoidable, I feel we were the agressor, I feel that Bush, not Saddam, is responsible for this war, but I\'m not here to argue that. I simply don\'t want any more people dead than necessary. If that is offensive to you, then oh well. It\'s what I feel.
Its ok to be wrong ;)
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It\'s good to see you accepting that Giga. It\'s healthy. Afterall, the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. Now say it with me. "I am Gigashadow, and I\'m a frequently wrong conservative." There, now don\'t you feel better? :)
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Originally posted by shockwaves
It\'s good to see you accepting that Giga. It\'s healthy. Afterall, the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. Now say it with me. "I am Gigashadow, and I\'m a frequently wrong conservative." There, now don\'t you feel better? :)
Ahh you are in a good mood, your Workers of the World Party Membership Card must have arrived today. :rolleyes:
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I feel sorry for the Iraqi troops that are brainwashed and do not believe in the cause that they are fighting for. Now for the Hussein loyalists I have no sympathy for they fully support him then they too deserve the fate that as their leader. Death is not a great thing nor do I support it, but who here doesn\'t agree that Iraq wouldn\'t be better off without Saddam Hussein?
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Ahh you are in a good mood, your Workers of the World Party Membership Card must have arrived today. :rolleyes:
I\'m a Green, thank you very much :)
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Originally posted by shockwaves
I\'m a Green, thank you very much :)
The environment is overrated ya "tree hugger" :p
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Better a tree than a bomb :)
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Concrete is where its at!!! Seriously though, speaking of anti war protesters... where do these people get the time? I suppose they don\'t have jobs and most are college students here in the US anyway.
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I\'m a second semester senior in highschool, that\'s my excuse.
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I was watching the O\'Reilly factor last night. They had an antiwar protester on. OReilly was saying how the protesters were doing more harm than good. The police are there to protect citizens from terror attacks. When these protesters form and get rowdy, the police have to focus on them now and taking away from protecting the citizens by rounding up the violent protesters. Now if something were to happen, the police would really be screwed as well as the citizens. Thats why I hate antiwar protesters.
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I have been protesting a whole lot the last few weeks. Not once has anyone I\'ve been with gotten violent. Most don\'t. It\'s a very very small minority that gives the majority a bad name. You don\'t protest war by being violent. To judge us by people like that is inaccurate and unfair.
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Titan, its just conservitive BS, if someone wants to break the law, they can break the law, and be punished. O\'Riley should have the same complaints about any form of protest/support gathering, they all need police present.
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Here\'s a question about protesting, why block traffic? What the hell does that do other than piss people off?
Ace
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Originally posted by shockwaves
I have been protesting a whole lot the last few weeks. Not once has anyone I\'ve been with gotten violent. Most don\'t. It\'s a very very small minority that gives the majority a bad name. You don\'t protest war by being violent. To judge us by people like that is inaccurate and unfair.
I didn\'t say you people were violent. I\'m just saying when you protest, they take the police away from their duties, rowdy or not. But WHEN/IF they do get violent, the police have to shift full attention to that and not on stopping any probable terrorist attacks.
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Breaking the law is the only way to get attention sometimes.
Giga...Who ever said this was about points?
I said **** Bush to make it more simplistic.
Or I could try to kiss ass.
ANYWAYS...in case your not watching the news, they have said that they\'re not sure that those were SCUD missels that were launched. They said it could of been some smaller missels. You keep talking about these weapons that he wasn\'t supposed to have, and how all the other countries were wussies and aren\'t as brave as the US government to do something about it. So far they haven\'t used no chemical weapons, nukes, or any other weapon of mass destruction. If Hussain really does have them, im sure he wouln\'t have wasted no time in using them.
If through this AVOIDABLE war, no weapons of mass destruction the Iraq government was supposed to have are not used. If no weapons are found after the war. Then Bush should quit, so should Collin Powell. But they might just sneak some in there before the cameras get there.
Que dios bendiga a toda la gente de Iraq y a las tropas de los Estados Unidos. Dios la gente no tiene la culpa de la demencia de los lideres de estas dos naciones. Son gente que le solamente les preocupa su bien estar y su orgullo. Y les vale madre la vida y el futuro de otros. Aunque ellos digan que la guerra es la unca salida. Todos sabemos que la guerra nunca debe de ser la unica forma de resolver los problemas. Bendice a todos nuestros hermanos en todo el mundo. Protegelos de las estupidas acciones de nuestros lidereas. Que dios nos ayude.
Amen.
Sorry guys im not good at praying in English.
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On the contrary, Saddam could have weapon of mass destruction and a nucclear head or two...but it\'ll not be enough to fight off US & allies, so he might as well keep them until he have enough power to do serious damage.
After all, if he use a weapon of mass desctruction now, it\'ll give US the green light to nuke them....Saddam is freako...but not stupid.
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If he does have them. Im pretty sure he would use them before going down. Kill a couple of thousands of soldiers and his own people, what would he have to lose?
And if the US was to nuke them, how would that look to other countries? Isn\'t the whole point of this war is to stop WOMD from ever being used?
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Saddam is going to be dead when this is all over. He will not use his biggest guns until he feels the end is near. He is still hoping that public opinion will win out. He does not want to stop all the good work the protesters are doing.
Ace
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Like Osama right?
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I WANT SHOCK AND AWE!
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
So basically a fanatical Nazi in say the SS Totenkopf would earn your respect because he would be fighting for what he believed in? Iraqi\'s aren\'t evil, but Saddam and family (ie. his sons) are.
Damn right. I can respect anyone that has the balls to fight and die for what they truely believe in.
Hell you like hockey alot right? Just say you were crazy enough to die for your favorite team...I would respect you for your convictions. I would think you were an idiot...but you would still also have respect for that.
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Originally posted by luckee
Like Osama right?
It\'s not over and we are making headway with the Al Qaeda scum. Saddam is a little differnt I believe than Usama.
Ace
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Originally posted by luckee
Damn right. I can respect anyone that has the balls to fight and die for what they truely believe in.
Hell you like hockey alot right? Just say you were crazy enough to die for your favorite team...I would respect you for your convictions. I would think you were an idiot...but you would still also have respect for that.
Respect?
Ace
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yea..I didnt think it was all that hard to read.
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I respect anyone who fights in a war. They may be the enemy but I respect them for what they believe in. Its the leaders of the enemy I dont respect.
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Originally posted by luckee
yea..I didnt think it was all that hard to read.
Not hard to read, hard to believe.
Ace
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I dont know why. Its not like what I said is all that terrible. Sure stupidty and lack of common sense can be said at the same time, but it takes ALOT for a person to die for what they believe whether what they believe is right or wrong.
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Originally posted by Titan
I respect anyone who fights in a war. They may be the enemy but I respect them for what they believe in. Its the leaders of the enemy I dont respect.
The leaders are willing to die for what they believe in too.
Bush is fighting for what he believes in.
Saddam is fighting for what he believes in.
Even though they\'re not actually fighting themselves.
But I respect that too. Both of them.
Even though they\'re both bloodthirsty lunatics, that care only about their own reasons.
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
Even though they\'re both bloodthirsty lunatics, that care only about their own reasons.
This is a serious question. You\'re in school right? Are you getting this stuff from your teachers? I am not trying to be a dick, I\'m curious.
Ace
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Its the leaders I don\'t respect because they are the causes of war. When was the last time a lone soldier started a war? Soldiers are usually forced to fight if they want to or not unless they volunteer.
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Originally posted by Ace
This is a serious question. You\'re in school right? Are you getting this stuff from your teachers? I am not trying to be a dick, I\'m curious.
Ace
Man, you have a problem with teachers don\'t you.
No actually im in my spring break, it\'s cold outside.
That\'s my opinion.
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:laughing:
I guess I do. I really do believe that school is a breeding ground for liberalism.
Ace
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Ditto to that Ace. Teachers try and make you change your mind and not be conservative. Lucky for me, I\'m not easily manipulated and only believe in what I feel is the truth. i\'m conservative and proud to say it. Many people I know are liberal.