PSX5Central
Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: luckee on April 10, 2003, 07:21:30 PM
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I dont want to hear another thing about what saddam..chemical ali, uday, and qusay have done to their citizens.
A History Of US Secret Human Experimentation
http://www.healthnewsnet.com/humanexperiments.html
1931 Dr. Cornelius Rhoads, under the auspices of the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Investigations, infects human subjects with cancer cells. He later goes on to establish the U.S. Army Biological Warfare facilities in Maryland, Utah, and Panama, and is named to the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission. While there, he begins a series of radiation exposure experiments on American soldiers and civilian hospital patients.
1932 The Tuskegee Syphilis Study begins. 200 black men diagnosed with syphilis are never told of their illness, are denied treatment, and instead are used as human guinea pigs in order to follow the progression and symptoms of the disease. They all subsequently die from syphilis, their families never told that they could have been treated.
1935 The Pellagra Incident. After millions of individuals die from Pellagra over a span of two decades, the U.S. Public Health Service finally acts to stem the disease. The director of the agency admits it had known for at least 20 years that Pellagra is caused by a niacin deficiency but failed to act since most of the deaths occurred within poverty-stricken black populations.
1940 Four hundred prisoners in Chicago are infected with Malaria in order to study the effects of new and experimental drugs to combat the disease. Nazi doctors later on trial at Nuremberg cite this American study to defend their own actions during the Holocaust.
1942 Chemical Warfare Services begins mustard gas experiments on approximately 4,000 servicemen. The experiments continue until 1945 and made use of Seventh Day Adventists who chose to become human guinea pigs rather than serve on active duty.
1943 In response to Japan\'s full-scale germ warfare program, the U.S. begins research on biological weapons at Fort Detrick, MD.
1944 U.S. Navy uses human subjects to test gas masks and clothing. Individuals were locked in a gas chamber and exposed to mustard gas and lewisite.
1945 Project Paperclip is initiated. The U.S. State Department, Army intelligence, and the CIA recruit Nazi scientists and offer them immunity and secret identities in exchange for work on top secret government projects in the United States.
1945 "Program F" is implemented by the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission (AEC). This is the most extensive U.S. study of the health effects of fluoride, which was the key chemical component in atomic bomb production. One of the most toxic chemicals known to man, fluoride, it is found, causes marked adverse effects to the central nervous system but much of the information is squelched in the name of national security because of fear that lawsuits would undermine full-scale production of atomic bombs.
1946 Patients in VA hospitals are used as guinea pigs for medical experiments. In order to allay suspicions, the order is given to change the word "experiments" to "investigations" or "observations" whenever reporting a medical study performed in one of the nation\'s veteran\'s hospitals.
1947 Colonel E.E. Kirkpatrick of the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission issues a secret document (Document 07075001, January 8, 1947) stating that the agency will begin administering intravenous doses of radioactive substances to human subjects.
1947 The CIA begins its study of LSD as a potential weapon for use by American intelligence. Human subjects (both civilian and military) are used with and without their knowledge.
1950 Department of Defense begins plans to detonate nuclear weapons in desert areas and monitor downwind residents for medical problems and mortality rates.
1950 I n an experiment to determine how susceptible an American city would be to biological attack, the U.S. Navy sprays a cloud of bacteria from ships over San Francisco. Monitoring devices are situated throughout the city in order to test the extent of infection. Many residents become ill with pneumonia-like symptoms.
1951 Department of Defense begins open air tests using disease-producing bacteria and viruses. Tests last through 1969 and there is concern that people in the surrounding areas have been exposed.
1953 U.S. military releases clouds of zinc cadmium sulfide gas over Winnipeg, St. Louis, Minneapolis, Fort Wayne, the Monocacy River Valley in Maryland, and Leesburg, Virginia. Their intent is to determine how efficiently they could disperse chemical agents.
1953 Joint Army-Navy-CIA experiments are conducted in which tens of thousands of people in New York and San Francisco are exposed to the airborne germs Serratia marcescens and Bacillus glogigii.
1953 CIA initiates Project MKULTRA. This is an eleven year research program designed to produce and test drugs and biological agents that would be used for mind control and behavior modification. Six of the subprojects involved testing the agents on unwitting human beings.
1955 The CIA, in an experiment to test its ability to infect human populations with biological agents, releases a bacteria withdrawn from the Army\'s biological warfare arsenal over Tampa Bay, Fl.
1955 Army Chemical Corps continues LSD research, studying its potential use as a chemical incapacitating agent. More than 1,000 Americans participate in the tests, which continue until 1958.
1956 U.S. military releases mosquitoes infected with Yellow Fever over Savannah, Ga and Avon Park, Fl. Following each test, Army agents posing as public health officials test victims for effects.
1958 LSD is tested on 95 volunteers at the Army\'s Chemical Warfare Laboratories for its effect on intelligence.
1960 The Army Assistant Chief-of-Staff for Intelligence (ACSI) authorizes field testing of LSD in Europe and the Far East. Testing of the European population is code named Project THIRD CHANCE; testing of the Asian population is code named Project DERBY HAT.
1965 Project CIA and Department of Defense begin Project MKSEARCH, a program to develop a capability to manipulate human behavior through the use of mind-altering drugs.
1965 Prisoners at the Holmesburg State Prison in Philadelphia are subjected to dioxin, the highly toxic chemical component of Agent Orange used in Viet Nam. The men are later studied for development of cancer, which indicates that Agent Orange had been a suspected carcinogen all along.
1966 CIA initiates Project MKOFTEN, a program to test the toxicological effects of certain drugs on humans and animals.
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1966 U.S. Army dispenses Bacillus subtilis variant niger throughout the New York City subway system. More than a million civilians are exposed when army scientists drop light bulbs filled with the bacteria onto ventilation grates.
1967 CIA and Department of Defense implement Project MKNAOMI, successor to MKULTRA and designed to maintain, stockpile and test biological and chemical weapons.
1968 CIA experiments with the possibility of poisoning drinking water by injecting chemicals into the water supply of the FDA in Washington, D.C.
1969 Dr. Robert MacMahan of the Department of Defense requests from congress $10 million to develop, within 5 to 10 years, a synthetic biological agent to which no natural immunity exists.
1970 Funding for the synthetic biological agent is obtained under H.R. 15090. The project, under the supervision of the CIA, is carried out by the Special Operations Division at Fort Detrick, the army\'s top secret biological weapons facility. Speculation is raised that molecular biology techniques are used to produce AIDS-like retroviruses.
1970 United States intensifies its development of "ethnic weapons" (Military Review, Nov., 1970), designed to selectively target and eliminate specific ethnic groups who are susceptible due to genetic differences and variations in DNA.
1975 The virus section of Fort Detrick\'s Center for Biological Warfare Research is renamed the Fredrick Cancer Research Facilities and placed under the supervision of the National Cancer Institute (NCI) . It is here that a special virus cancer program is initiated by the U.S. Navy, purportedly to develop cancer-causing viruses. It is also here that retrovirologists isolate a virus to which no immunity exists. It is later named HTLV (Human T-cell Leukemia Virus).
1977 Senate hearings on Health and Scientific Research confirm that 239 populated areas had been contaminated with biological agents between 1949 and 1969. Some of the areas included San Francisco, Washington, D.C., Key West, Panama City, Minneapolis, and St. Louis.
1978 Experimental Hepatitis B vaccine trials, conducted by the CDC, begin in New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco. Ads for research subjects specifically ask for promiscuous homosexual men.
1981 First cases of AIDS are confirmed in homosexual men in New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco, triggering speculation that AIDS may have been introduced via the Hepatitis B vaccine
1985 According to the journal Science (227:173-177), HTLV and VISNA, a fatal sheep virus, are very similar, indicating a close taxonomic and evolutionary relationship.
1986 According to the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (83:4007-4011), HIV and VISNA are highly similar and share all structural elements, except for a small segment which is nearly identical to HTLV. This leads to speculation that HTLV and VISNA may have been linked to produce a new retrovirus to which no natural immunity exists.
1986 A report to Congress reveals that the U.S. Government\'s current generation of biological agents includes: modified viruses, naturally occurring toxins, and agents that are altered through genetic engineering to change immunological character and prevent treatment by all existing vaccines.
1987 Department of Defense admits that, despite a treaty banning research and development of biological agents, it continues to operate research facilities at 127 facilities and universities around the nation.
1990 More than 1500 six-month old black and hispanic babies in Los Angeles are given an "experimental" measles vaccine that had never been licensed for use in the United States. CDC later admits that parents were never informed that the vaccine being injected to their children was experimental.
1994 With a technique called "gene tracking," Dr. Garth Nicolson at the MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, TX discovers that many returning Desert Storm veterans are infected with an altered strain of Mycoplasma incognitus, a microbe commonly used in the production of biological weapons. Incorporated into its molecular structure is 40 percent of the HIV protein coat, indicating that it had been man-made.
1994 Senator John D. Rockefeller issues a report revealing that for at least 50 years the Department of Defense has used hundreds of thousands of military personnel in human experiments and for intentional exposure to dangerous substances. Materials included mustard and nerve gas, ionizing radiation, psychochemicals, hallucinogens, and drugs used during the Gulf War .
1995 U.S. Government admits that it had offered Japanese war criminals and scientists who had performed human medical experiments salaries and immunity from prosecution in exchange for data on biological warfare research.
1995 Dr. Garth Nicolson, uncovers evidence that the biological agents used during the Gulf War had been manufactured in Houston, TX and Boca Raton, Fl and tested on prisoners in the Texas Department of Corrections.
1996 Department of Defense admits that Desert Storm soldiers were exposed to chemical agents.
1997 Eighty-eight members of Congress sign a letter demanding an investigation into bioweapons use & Gulf War Syndrome.
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So where should we drop the MOAB? I vote for Kentucky.... j/k
Actually I only got to read about ten of them. My head is pounding, but it looks interesting nevertheless. Hopefully I\'ll get over this damn cold tomorrow.
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I wonder what they are doing now...that is a chilling thought
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HOLY SHIT!!
Are those for real???
OMG, and just to think that I was actually beginning to believe that there was a reason behind this war............................
.........
right..
Anyways today on tv there was a special about the different propaganda used by different networks. They compared two magazines. One from the Us and the other from the other side of the world. The one from the US had pictured of Baghdad being bombed. The one from the other side of the world had a picture of an iraqi man carrying his wife through baghdad. Her legs had been like torn up or something. and she was bleeding badly.......
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
HOLY SHIT!!
Anyways today on tv there was a special about the different propaganda used by different networks. They compared two magazines. One from the Us and the other from the other side of the world. The one from the US had pictured of Baghdad being bombed. The one from the other side of the world had a picture of an iraqi man carrying his wife through baghdad. Her legs had been like torn up or something. and she was bleeding badly.......
see this thread
http://www.psx2central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29120
Too bad it was ruined by a mad mob ....
I don\'t know what it is...colonialism...resources...I don\'t know...everything is so crazy I don\'t know what to know anymore...if that makes sense to you
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/me pats luckee on the back
good boy, dig deeper
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Mistyq..very real. You can look any of it up. Most of it is public record, and I\'m sure most of the original documents are available through the FOIA.
mm...Frankly, Im rather scared to find more out.
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Quite a number of those can\'t be backed up luckee. Most of those almost qualify as "urban myths".
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almost?
most of them are conspiracy theories
"1969 Americans claim to walk on on the moon, just to make the rest of the world inferior"
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I was trying to be diplomatic ;)
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So what luckee is saying is that the US is worse than Iraq? Ahhh....maybe luckee should move back to Cuba.
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Since you just want to down them, look them up. You will be pleasantly disturbed if you actually take the time.
mm..conspiracy theories that can be backed on paper? Look them up.
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
So what luckee is saying is that the US is worse than Iraq? Ahhh....maybe luckee should move back to Cuba.
Maybe you should learn to read better instead of reading INTO things. Point out where I said the US is worse than Iraq.
O yea...move back to cuba??? That would imply that I have been there b4. Yet again your ignorance shines brightly.
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So you also think there\'s no Lunar Landing. Coz someone put that theory on paper. Good for you.
Did you hear about the Big Foot in the North Western regions of North America?
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I wouldn\'t exactly call those solid or credible sources.
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So government documents are now not credible?
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Those are not government documents. Really, as mm said they are conspiracy theories... not to mention quite a few of them are conspiracies used to play the race card:
example:
1990 More than 1500 six-month old black and hispanic babies in Los Angeles are given an "experimental" measles vaccine that had never been licensed for use in the United States. CDC later admits that parents were never informed that the vaccine being injected to their children was experimental.
Most of the "theories" you listed are views of those that feel the government always lies to its citizens and is really a secret evil entity.
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i bet luckee believes aliens crash landed in roswell back in the fifties
:eek:
luckee, honestly bro
yer better than this
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So that example you citied isnt directly government related..so common sense should say I wasnt talking about that one in particular.
Like I said, if you doubt me...look this stuff up.
Whether or not some ppl feel one way or another about the government doesnt mean a good portion of these arent true.
I can even admit some of these are probably false, but most of this stuff took place. Like I said, look it up.
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it\'s written on teh internet
it must be real!!!11
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Some of them did happen. I\'ve read those back when I was in college. Not quite on the same level as Saddam Hussein.
Hell....let\'s all hope for the best for Iraq. The war is nearly over and now there\'s a lot of rebuilding to do.
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I agree, come on luckee, your posts are some of the best here, however this list is full of rumors and speculation at best.
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some of them could quite possibly be true
i won\'t contest that
but yer acting like it\'s gospel
when you moving to iraq btw?
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Im not acting like its gospel, im simply stating to look them up if you believe them to be false as I am.
FOIA is your friend.
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it\'s a waste of time for you or I to look them up
noone (not even me), can deny that the US has done some wrong things over the years BUT to compare them in ANY way to what saddam has done is ridiculous
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Originally posted by mm
it\'s a waste of time for you or I to look them up
noone (not even me), can deny that the US has done some wrong things over the years BUT to compare them in ANY way to what saddam has done is ridiculous
No but its important to remember these when ever someone claims that the US or UK are taking the moral high ground on any issue with WoMD.
This is not Anti American or west post, its just a reminder that we can get involved and use chemical and biological weapons on our enemy’s , civilians who get unintentionally caught in the cross fire and in some case our own soldiers and civilians.
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Amazing. You guys find the slightlest thing on Saddam, on the internet and you\'re posting it and it is the truest of true facts. Luckee finds something to put things into perspective and it is "possibly false".
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The Giving LSD to US troops to see the effects is both true and well documented (heck you can even watch film footage of Troops on LSD trting to "run" through an Assault course .
the others will probability require more research.
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LIC, tell me saddam doesnt murder entire families when one member speaks out against him, so i can ignore everything else you might say
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Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
Amazing. You guys find the slightlest thing on Saddam, on the internet and you\'re posting it and it is the truest of true facts. Luckee finds something to put things into perspective and it is "possibly false".
OK, I read through a lot of them and yes there is a lot of conspiracy theory and urban myth in a lot of them. Also a lot of the testing is science related, so even if it\'s true, how could you compare that to imprisoning children because they don\'t believe in the Baath party? Or beating and torchering thousands upon thousands of people for doing things that every one of us takes for granted.
I just find that hard to compare.
And LIC, the reason I\'m quoting you is that there aren\'t slight little things on the internet about Saddam. They are very big things and they are all over the place. If it was just an obscure website saying Saddam likes to beat people, then I\'d say yeah I agree.
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This isn\'t a contest to see "Who\'s the most evilest," Iraq or the U.S. Luckee was just pointing out that we are not the shining golden example of responsibility when it comes to chemical and biological weapons research. I think some of the people on this forum feel that the US can do no wrong, and probably a little humility would help.
When a fat guy says to you "Don\'t eat that donut, those are bad for you." What\'s your normal reaction? It\'s usually "LOOK WHO\'S TALKIN\' BUDDY!" That\'s something we should try to remember when nations criticize our "holier than thou" attitude on Saddam\'s human rights violations. We\'re not as bad as him, but we\'re not a pillar of virture either.
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Thank you.
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No one said the US is without flaw. The comparison (veiled as it is) of the US government to Saddam\'s regime is where there is fault with this post.
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So if it isnt spelled out for you, you dont understand?
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What is your point luckee? The title of your post is a veiled comparison of the US government to Saddam\'s. It is wrong period. Who cares if some of them are true or not? That isn\'t the point. Why post this? Does it make Saddam\'s regime any more legitimate? Really, I can\'t understand why you posted this in the first place, except to get a reaction. In which case you succeeded.
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Does it make our regime any more legitimate? I don\'t understand why a comparison is inherently "wrong." Both the Iraqi government and our government purchased, developed and tested chemical & biological weapons. Iraq actually used them on a large scale, so that makes them worse. However, we are both on the same path. It\'s just a matter of degree.
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That and they have known associations with terrorist groups that would love to hand out some chemical weapons. I don\'t see the US doing that.
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So how did Saddam get them? Hmmmm??
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So what if we have chemical weapons? Do you not think the US is responsible enough to have them? It all comes down to stability and responsibility where WMD are concerned. The US has proven that over and over again since the end of WWII. Other countries such as the UK, the former USSR and China have also shown this. Does this mean I am all for countries obtaining WMD even though they fit the criteria I just mentioned? No.
Hopefully one day all the stockpiles of WMD will be eliminated everywhere. Preventing Saddam from obtaining or further developing them is a step in the right direction IMO. I don\'t want to get into N. Korea as I know we all feel that is a big problem, but hopefully you understand the position I am coming from regarding this thread.
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Originally posted by luckee
So how did Saddam get them? Hmmmm??
Sure the US gave them weapons back in the early 80\'s, but they weren\'t alone. What is worse, some mustard gas or a nuclear reactor?
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Originally posted by videoholic
That and they have known associations with terrorist groups that would love to hand out some chemical weapons. I don\'t see the US doing that.
Just because someone claims they know that doesn\'t mean it\'s proven. Besides, WE have known associations with terrorists groups. Remember the Contras? I know we usually back the dictatorial government in third world nations, but we have been known to support the occasional terrorist organization in the event that the legitimate government doesn\'t want to play ball with us. :)
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Yeah, america is the best !
Only a couple hundred thousand japanese got barbecued right?
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:rolleyes:
we dun like trolls
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This has nothing to do with whatever is going on here....But I was wondering if you guys knew that back in the Viet war the US gave some kind of drug(illegal) to the soldiers in order to keep them fighting. Amphetamines I think. And we wonder why some of the Viet Vets are sometimes so coo-coo.
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
This has nothing to do with whatever is going on here....But I was wondering if you guys knew that back in the Viet war the US gave some kind of drug(illegal) to the soldiers in order to keep them fighting. Amphetamines I think. And we wonder why some of the Viet Vets are sometimes so coo-coo.
I can\'t remember it but the shot that they gave my dad is what we think made him become the man he is today...when they gave him the shot he began to black out and go into seizures and he said he saw a black curtain coming down...death was about to take him..he said the doctor\'s looked like monsters with long fangs...Vietnam screwed up my father and who knows how many others
so yeah uh, mm, anybody that you don\'t agree with is a troll? Far worst comments have been said about myself or others, but were merely overlooked as these people have the same ideals as you
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my ideals are pretty solid, clowd
yers are extremely skewed
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isn\'t that something
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Vietnam wasn\'t war lets get that straight, it was hell. You just can\'t really make Vietnam and Iraq the same thing, and that is what some people tend to do, just as you can\'t say WWII was the same as Vietnam it just wasn\'t.
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Did I say Saddam didn\'t murder ? No. Did I say he didn\'t have test people? No. I don\'t doubt he does ( do I care? Not really, that\'s another story tho\'.) . I just think it puts things into perspective slightly. A lot of people think America is oh-so Holy and clean, yet we are often just as dirty as other countries. Who sold Saddam weapons at one point? What country is the only country to actually use a weapon of mass destruction? The list goes on and on.
Saddam may be "evil" and dangerous, but I believe Bush is just as dangerous. And we attack on the notion that there "may be a threat" or "liberating people". than we are asking for a lot of wars. A lot of unnessarcy wars.
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Damn LIC, I wish I could put my feelings exactly into the words I need to use as you seem to do.
Once again..I have to agree with you 100%
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A lot of people think America is oh-so Holy and clean,
show me one person
bush, dangerous? he can\'t do a SINGLE thing thing unless congress allows him to
oh, you guys forgot about that
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America, holy and clean???
what drugs are these people smoking.
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Originally posted by mm
show me one person
bush, dangerous? he can\'t do a SINGLE thing thing unless congress allows him to
oh, you guys forgot about that
BUSH!
He can be, most of the congress are made up of people who support him anyways. LIC you\'re the best.
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HE can be what? You make little if no centse.
Most of congress don\'t support Bush. Most of congress supports issues that he also agrees with. Most of congress agrees in this fight against terrorism.
Bush can\'t do a damn thing unless it\'s just. And this my friends was just.
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A lot of congress did not support this war. A lot of the American people didn\'t. A lot of our so called "allies" didn\'t. Yet, what happened? We are at war. Now , what is to stop Bush from goin\' for another war against North Korea or some other country that "may be a threat".
As for my "holy and clean" remark. I say that, because a lot of people view the USA as "big brother" and the country that is always doing what\'s right. The "god fearing nation". We are none of those things.
Oh and as far as us beating Iraq in this war. So what? What have we accomplished? We may take Saddam\'s regime out, but someone else will take his place. We may end up having more angry people . And, it\'s not like we really are showing some muscle. This war is akin to the 15 year old boy beating up on a eight year on the school grounds..It\'s not like it takes exactly skill to defeat a small Army 10 years behind us weapon wise.
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America was over 70% FOR the action against Saddam before we dropped the first bomb and hit 80% last week. So sure a lot of people are against war. Hell, everyone is against "war". But a heck of a lot of people realized it was the right thing to do.
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and a misguided few, dont
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I\'m sorry, but you can never convince me that we should go to war on the notion that someone may be a threat to us. We disregarded the UN and went ahead and started a war, just because we "think" someone may have a "smoking gun". Give me a frickin\' break.
I think my neighbor may try to kill me eventually. I know he has a gun - I sold it to him. I guess, I could just go over there and kill him. I mean, after all, he may pose a threat with the weapons I sold him.
:rolleyes:
And give me a break on this free\'ing the Iraqi people. It is amazing that no one cared about the Iraqi people until this. They was just another poverty stricken country with a ruthless dicator. It wasn\'t on the agenda to free them, until we found out that we couldn\'t find a "smoking gun".
We have sent American soliders over to get killed. We have sent someone\'s son or daughter...Brother or sister to get killed in a war, that is being fought because we "think" there is a "smoking gun". Oh and to free those Iraqi people. Lord knows we should worry about free\'ing them, before we start worrying about what is going on over in our own country.
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saddam isnt just a threat to the US
he is a threat to EVERYONE, including his own people
shame on you for wanting to just turn a blind eye and ignore the problem
what problems in america?
homeless people? bah, 1/2 of them love thier lifestyle, and the other 1/2 refuse any help
hunger? there\'s centers to be had everywhere
sickness? free clinics in every city
americans are lazy and want everything handed to them
thats why there are so many "problems" here
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Originally posted by mm
hunger? there\'s centers to be had everywhere
sickness? free clinics in every city
americans are lazy and want everything handed to them
thats why there are so many "problems" here
Another sad fact is that most Americans who are in poverty are overweight.
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So if they find a bunch of chemical weapons will everyone agree that what the US did was correct?
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Yes for me.
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So if they find a bunch of chemical weapons will everyone agree that what the US did was correct?
No. I won\'t. I refuse to support this war . I refuse to support any war that is based off a notion. We went to war with a notion that he had them. We didn\'t have proof at the time and my opinion, that is a disgrace.
And we already went over him being a threat to his own people. So what? Why do we have to play big brother? Call me seflish, but it makes me gag that we pay taxes to go free some other country.
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LIC, im still shocked that you would just let saddam continue to do what he likes
you could always move to canada
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or mexico
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Originally posted by videoholic
So if they find a bunch of chemical weapons will everyone agree that what the US did was correct?
Not really since we gave them to him in the first place, but now it is wrong all of a sudden. They knew he was evil from day one. He has always been the way he is and they knew.
I probably wouldn\'t have been as opposed to the war if it was all about freedo and freedom only from day one, but even then, I still would have a hard time swallowing it.
Funny thing is, I feel this way, but Im not oppossed to violence in general. :)
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Errr...
The US isn\'t the only country to ever use a WMD...
What do you think this war was about?
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Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
And we already went over him being a threat to his own people. So what? Why do we have to play big brother? Call me seflish, but it makes me gag that we pay taxes to go free some other country.
Oh come on L-I-C... You had some valid points until this. Country boy? Lemme guess, you haven\'t even left the country, much less the state you live in? Well let me just put in my .02... I lived in southern Turkey for two years, and have a good taste of the Muslim world. Maybe it was just the location, and American influence, but the Turks loved Americans. You could exit the military installation, and walk amongst them, dine with them, even sit down and have a conversation with them. They welcomed our prescense, and really shattered my previous ethnocentric views I held for them previously.
Point is, you are selfish. Extremely selfish. It\'s not about you, and your country specifically, its about being a good citizen of the world. Don\'t forget that there is a much bigger world outside the one you\'re so closely associated with. It\'s easy to kick back and relax when you are so accustomed to your own comfortable environment. But if you actually saw what was out there, you\'d feel much more unified as a world citizen, rather than be binded to a specific country. Believe me, if your life was being made miserable under Saddam\'s regime, you would be more than willing to welcome America\'s objective of dethroning him.
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Originally posted by luckee
So how did Saddam get them? Hmmmm??
Rummy Sold them to him in the 80\'s to fight Iran, oh sorry i though you were asking me ;)
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I may be a selfish person, but I\'m not ashamed to admit it. I don\'t think we American\'s should have to pay for some other country to be free.
I don\'t turn a blindside to what he does to his people. I simply don\'t concern myself with it. It doesn\'t concern me if he torture\'s his people. It concerns me when family is sent over there to be shoot or killed all for those people can be freed.
With that said - I still don\'t buy the we are going over there to free them. You can think that all you want, but that is simply a false intention.
And is it quite fair of America to free the Iraqi people and ignore other countries? What about other countries ruled by dicators? Are we goin\' to start and try to play big brother and the almighty saviour to all those? Even at the cost of our own American lives?
And like Luckee said - is it so wrong if he does have chemical weapons? After all, we gave them to him. So who are we to condem him for having them?
And if we gave him those weapons , knowing he was a ruthless dicator - and they are used on his people sometimes, who is guilty? Saddam or the US? I say both.
-shrugs-
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I guess we should fight all countries at once. Then LIC would be happy because we aren\'t just picking on Iraq which he apparently doesn\'t care about because he doesn\'t know any Iraqis.
And as far as us giving them the WMD, in American criminal law, the seller of the gun is almost always not criminally liable for murder. Remember one of the basic rules of international politics: “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.” Alliances exist until they are no longer politically tenable. Just because we originally gave them to him doesn\'t mean we should let him use them. It\'s been many many years since we originally gave them to him. And it\'s not like he didn\'t develop his own since.
"And if we gave him those weapons , knowing he was a ruthless dicator - and they are used on his people sometimes, who is guilty? Saddam or the US? I say both. "
Then I\'m surprised gun makers are still in business because they should be sued up and down the street when people shoot other people.
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meh, sovereign states should have a bit more sense than gun manufacturers - especially when trading in weapons that can kill lots and lots of people.
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Which furthers my point.
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Originally posted by videoholic
I because they should be sued up and down the street when people shoot other people.
no they are still in biz by saying such Intelligent quotes like...
“guns don’t kill people, people kill people “
Talk about the ultimate in washing your hands.
hey maybe Rummy could use the same excuse by saying.
“I sold Saddam that Anthrax on the strict promise that he would never use it and it would be a deterrent against Iran”
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Quit being mean to ole Rummy. You have to admit he give great press conferences. Second only to our MIA information minister of Iraq. :)
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Originally posted by videoholic
Quit being mean to ole Rummy. You have to admit he give great press conferences. Second only to our MIA information minister of Iraq. :)
yeah...
our one of our radio stations had the Rummy Daily Sound bite, they are somethims more funnyer than our beloved MIA information minister of Iraq.
and while we are on the subject.... have you\'s lot given up on writing scripts before press confrences.
i keep lossing the amount of times i hear Ummm and Errrr From Rummy and co.
;)
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On the gun shops and manufactuers note...
They cant legally sell weapons to criminals. So why was the US government allowed to?
Most criminals ddont obtain firearms legally anyway, unless its one of those "crimes of passion".
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Originally posted by luckee
They cant legally sell weapons to criminals. So why was the US government allowed to?
3 possible reasons.
[list=1]
- Because there was money to be had
- Because Saddam was only :rolleyes: a monster one he stoped being of a use
- Bacause if we hadn\'t sold him the weapons some else would of.