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Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: FifaSeriesFan on June 19, 2003, 07:17:37 AM
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WTF?!?
Gay bishop vows to stay with partner
LONDON (Reuters) - Sex and homosexuality have ignited a heated debate within the Church of England after its first-ever openly gay bishop vowed to stay with his male partner, testing the tolerance of senior church members.
Defying calls by some within the Anglican church that he should stand down, newly-appointed Jeffrey John, 50, said he had no intention of quitting his post as suffragan (assistant) Bishop of Reading.
"We will remain together," John told Thursday\'s Times of his 27-year-long homosexual relationship.
"The relationship has not been sexually expressed for years. The love and commitment are, if anything, greater," he said.
The controversy surrounding John\'s appointment -- backed by some bishops but questioned by others -- has renewed divisive debate among Anglicans grappling with questions of sex and homosexuality, a particularly sharp thorn in the side of the church, especially in recent months.
The Archbishop of Canterbury, spiritual leader of the world\'s 70 million Anglicans, expressed dismay last month that a bishop on Canada\'s west coast had decided to authorise blessing ceremonies of same-sex couples.
And earlier this month, New Hampshire Episcopalians -- a U.S. version of the Anglican Church -- elected their first openly gay bishop.
John\'s appointment drew difficult questions from several other bishops, who this week published an open letter expressing their concerns:
"Dr John has many admirable qualities for the work of a bishop. But the issue is \'what is acceptable sexual behaviour in God\'s sight?\'" part of the letter read.
Defining acceptable sexual behaviour has never been easy for Anglicans.
"The official position is that the church is in the middle of a long-running debate about human sexuality," Church of England spokesman Steve Jenkins told Reuters.
The church\'s 1991 policy paper "Issues in Human Sexuality", which allows gay relationships among the laity but demands that gay priests should be celibate, has hardly clarified the issue or calmed debate.
One church member who asked not to be named said:
"This case may be just what the long-running debate needed to move forward".
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Hehe, talking about churches - some priest here said he does not believe in God. Made a bit of a fuss with the "super priests" (no I have no idea what they\'re called :D).
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At least he isn\'t molesting the choirboys...............
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Religion = Cancer of humanity
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You have your beliefs, I have mine. Difference is I don\'t make fun of yours. :)
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Well Adan probably has a different outlook on this, what with that whole "Inquisition" deal and all.
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he\'s quite right though :)
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friggin\' anglicans
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I gotta agree with Adan. Religion is responsible for so many deaths and violence around the world. I think that when mankind ends it will be because of religion. It\'s almost like a method of insanity, singing and eating bread because it "clears your sins." It\'s something that will never die though because people are too afraid to face that there is no god, and there is no afterlife.
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Cored, I, fortunately, didn\'t know the inquisition... anyway i\'m well informed about it and all the rubish that church (when I say church = religion as a whole) has.
90% conflicts on the earth are caused by religion. It was good in middle ages when people didn\'t know to count further away 10, but now, in 21th century.... it\'s enough to believe in ourselves.
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Originally posted by Adan
Cored, I, fortunately, didn\'t know the inquisition... anyway i\'m well informed about it and all the rubish that church (when I say church = religion as a whole) has.
90% conflicts on the earth are caused by religion. It was good in middle ages when people didn\'t know to count further away 10, but now, in 21th century.... it\'s enough to believe in ourselves.
*sigh*
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Originally posted by SwifDi
*sigh*
*sigh*
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*sigh* ;)
damn, religon is really a touchy issue on these forums.
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*sigh*
I don\'t have a soul, I am a meat popsicle. ;)
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I believe that the main issue is not so much religion it is more so about the tradions and values of Catholic Church and other denominational religions.
Religion is not suppose to surpress, it is suppose to free. TCC, as many other denomitionas are, are so bound by tradition, views of others, and views within their own system. Christianity however, is not a religion, it a way of life, a faith. It is the only \'religion\' that is so simple in its principles yet makes so much sense. You simply truly believe that Jesus is the saviour and make an effort to live your life the way he would want you to live it. I believe everything that is written in the Bible and in all honesty is makes so much sense. The Catholic church in particular is so caught up in its image of \'holiness\' that these recent probems with child molestation occur. Just because its a church, doesn\'t mean that everyone associated with it are going to never do anywrong. They should just addmit that sure these things do happen from time to time and the priests should be immediately sacked from their positions.
Yes, it appears in modern day (1940\'s - onward) translations of the Bible (NKJ, NIV etc) that homosexuality seems to be frowned uppon by God. However, its believed because of public opinion about homosexuality throughout the early to mid twentith century that many translations of the english Bible were exaggerated and/or missconstructed. If you go to the original Hebrew/Greek text, it translates quite differently, and this is why there is no clear cut answer in the church (one of the reasons).
I don\'t believe that \'times change\', I do however believe, that with all the cancers, tumours, birth defects, radition, air pollution etc that a birth \'defect\' (as in a different wireing of the brain) that would cause someone to be attracted to the opposite sex via genes would no be impossible, and would be certainly liking to occur.
I don\'t think the issue is the homosexuality, I think its more so that he should be celibate. if hetro priests have to stay celibate, then so should he, and he shouldn\'t be in a relationship (no matter how innocent) if he is supposed to abbstain.
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Originally posted by ##RaCeR##
I believe that the main issue is not so much religion it is more so about the tradions and values of Catholic Church and other denominational religions.
pffff....don\'t give me that crap!
It\'s all about the worshipping of gods and that sort of crap (IMO) no believe system excluded!!!
I don\'t get it: \'why do people believe in a god?\' when there\'s absolutely no proof
(this is a really \'tricky\' topic)
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^^
i don\'t want to get off the topic, but there is nothing wrong with believing in god. If theres no proof that he exists then that also means theres no proof he DOESNT exist. Considering that sources OTHER than the Bible proove that Jesus existed, AND that he performed incredible miricles, it just all makes sense.
The main problem at the moment, IMO, is the Catholic Church. They have tried to hide and cover things up to make themseles look good, which is totally different to what they preach (honesty). They should have come clean about corruption in the church years ago. There will always be corruption in the church as long as there is sin.
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Originally posted by Tyrant
*sigh* ;)
damn, religon is really a touchy issue on these forums.
Dude, open your eyes... Its a touchy subject everywhere.
I usually stay out of these threads. Reason being that you cant really say what is or is NOT true. ONLY what you believe.
I believe that churches are a great money scheme though. All that money coming in, and no need to do taxes or claim your income. HMMMM I wonder how many large corperations are looking into this..... Why do you think there are so many figgin churches?
you dont need church to have a relationship with God. supposedly, he is omnipresent (I think thats spelled right) ;)
Dont mean to piss anyone off, But this is what I BELIEVE to be true.
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Though I agree peoples beliefs are thier own, I still believe that religion in general is outdates and needs to vanish. Faith in god is OK, because that is YOUR personal belief. But, to often than not religions are very elitist.
Most religions state that if you dont believe in thier religion than you are going to hell. The problem this causes is that people(I have seen it so much in my life) begin to see themselves as better than those not of thier particular religion. Eventually this leads to stupid things like war, holocausts and others.
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think yourselves lucky we don\'t have marilyn manson lurking around these boards...
ooh church bashing!looks like you\'re all going to hell...unless you all do 100 hell marys.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.centerstagetheater.org%2Fshows%2Fdevil.gif&hash=02d04aee6405cf5fcb39338569af93893bdaa756)
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Originally posted by ##RaCeR##
i don\'t want to get off the topic, but there is nothing wrong with believing in god. If theres no proof that he exists then that also means theres no proof he DOESNT exist. Considering that sources OTHER than the Bible proove that Jesus existed, AND that he performed incredible miricles, it just all makes sense.
Racer if something didn\'t exist, you cannot prrof it, and never will.
The problem is that we, grown up in a catholic society, believe that our religion is the true one, the best, the authentic... anybody can believe in the gods of the black people in a forgotten small island of the Pacific who are a rounded white stone and a tree with bird shape? That would be stupid.
Well, the same stupid that our religion. There is no difference in between that white stone and the thing we call GOD. None of those items have any value, nor have any mysthical power. They are only the result of our intelligence. Yes you heard well. Mankind, since the raising of his coefficient needs something "in which believe" in order to explain those things that, apparently, have not a response.
And what would be better than create a super-man with super-powers, that can do everything, including life? A good solution, but also a stupid solution. GODS and religions have all the same starting: SECTS. Yes, catholicism, buddhism and all that crap began with a small group, generally headed by a fool with fool ideas. What happened with these big religions is that, due to economical, cultural and social factors, they grew up becoming an important part of the population\'s life.
There is evidence that Jesus existed, of course. Who does say not? But he wasn\'t a superman arrived from the heaven... nah, it was a political, revolutionary, fool man that created the sect of the catholicism. That\'s all. Later on, the followers of this sect (can anyone, BTW, tell me the difference between a sect and religion: there isn\'t) supported it with books, greatest reading and superb facts carried on by the spiritual leader of the group. History turns people into what it is interested on. If population needed to believe in a heaven guy, they created a heaven guy. That\'s all. If the lost people in the rainforest need to believe in the creature that bring \'em the daily food, they will create and will believe in that "god", that\'s all. This is all a lie.
Do you know why mankind created the first heroic creatures/lengendary men/gods? Because they couldn\'t understand the status of the life after dying. It\'s impossible for our mind to understand that with the death, we\'ll miss everything, even our experience and life: everything! and that\'s something our mind is not prepared to. That\'s a tramp of our intelligence... and there\'s a logical necessity to create a scape to have hope. And that hope, in our society is religion, catholicism, god and heaven... (don\'t forget that after dying you will go there........)
That\'s all about religion: a sham for our own interest... doesn\'t matter what it is (here our life after life and the good behaviour in life, in other part of the world it may be the necssety for daily food and water...).
But we\'re on 21th cnetury and I do think that religion is out of place. Perhaps to all those close-minds that still think that everything is not over with death it has a necessary importance... for the rest I can\'t see that interest.
Religion nowadays is a source for problems, frauds, crimes and all that crap. Do u know the money church gets from the government every month? You may be surprised with the amount it is robbering you.
Well, those are my thoughts, that aren\'t very far from reality I believe.
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I believe in God and Aliens Adan...does that prove anything?
*Fifaseriesfan runs off ashamed and confesses his sins to the nearest tramp in exchange for a half drunken bottle of Jack Daniels
I don\'t go to church cause sundays are for hangover recoveries.
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I don\'t mind in which you believe fifa. Who knows... perhaps the next deity in 2300 is Monica Lewinsky... There will be a bible that tells her great miracles of extracting milk from a heavy rock in order to survive in the middle of the rainforest.
..............
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Originally posted by Adan
I don\'t mind in which you believe fifa. Who knows... perhaps the next deity in 2300 is Monica Lewinsky... There will be a bible that tells her great miracles of extracting milk from a heavy rock in order to survive in the middle of the rainforest.
..............
:laughing: that was so funny!
I\'m trying to make a light hearted comment out of all this cause I started some Worldwide Vicars heated debate.
Religion = Money = Blasphemy = ?
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Originally posted by FifaSeriesFan
Religion = Money = Blasphemy = ?
Nice scheme.
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can you help me complete it?
It\'s just churches are like cults...the way they come around scrounging for money in those envelopes and collection plates.
For every bottle of vodka I buy,the money could have gone on some new candles for the church or some useless shit like that.
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Religion = Money = Blasphemy = complete lie
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well said mate...
I believe in God but that doesn\'t mean I want this bullsh*t shoved down my throat every sunday.
at college last year there was this guy called Danny and he was mega religious...he\'d try and force feed us his beliefs.
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Call him, we\'ll have a nice chat. It\'s interesting to see different points of view about the greatest lie all around the world.
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SO do you look at your poop before you flush?
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Originally posted by videoholic
SO do you look at your poop before you flush?
????
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huh?
you got some sick fetish?
I\'d call him Adan mate,but I don\'t need some god loving hippy telling me how to live my life.so I guess you could handle it?trust me after a while you\'ll either be suicidal or a priest!:p
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Originally posted by FifaSeriesFan
I\'d call him Adan mate,but I don\'t need some god loving hippy telling me how to live my life.so I guess you could handle it?trust me after a while you\'ll either be suicidal or a priest!:p
Sure, typical religious / sectarious behaviour. (=brainwash)
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Originally posted by ##RaCeR##
^^
i don\'t want to get off the topic, but there is nothing wrong with believing in god. If theres no proof that he exists then that also means theres no proof he DOESNT exist. Considering that sources OTHER than the Bible proove that Jesus existed, AND that he performed incredible miricles, it just all makes sense.
1. I never stated there couldn\'t be a god, I merely stated that it is, at the moment, foolish to believe there is one, due to the lack of proof
2. give me a list of those, so called, sources, I dare you
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Theres no evidence directly against it because theres no way to get evidence against it, since it doesn\'t exist and it\'s just an idea.
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I always look at my poop, and don\'t believe in god.
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Originally posted by FifaSeriesFan
It\'s just churches are like cults...the way they come around scrounging for money in those envelopes and collection plates.
Every organization needs money to stay up and running. Sports teams wouldn\'t exist without funding. Video game developers would go bankrupt if their publisher didn\'t provide for them. Even our own governments take money from us with taxes to keep everything in running order. Why would churches be any different? Orginizations like homeless shelters are always taking donations. Does this make homeless shelters cults?
Originally posted by Politiepet
I don\'t get it: \'why do people believe in a god?\' when there\'s absolutely no proof
Likewise, why do people believe in evolution, or the big bang theory? There isn\'t proof for those things either. People choose to believe in what makes the most sense to them. One belief isn\'t necessarily better, or even more correct than another.
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Originally posted by IronFist
Likewise, why do people believe in evolution, or the big bang theory? There isn\'t proof for those things either. People choose to believe in what makes the most sense to them. One belief isn\'t necessarily better, or even more correct than another.
you\'re kidding right? you must be.....
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Originally posted by politiepet
you\'re kidding right? you must be.....
Kidding? Why would you say that? Are you saying that you have proof that the big bang really happened? Are you saying you have proof that evolution occured? I would tell you to go ahead and show me that proof, but I know you couldn\'t find any. If there were proof of those things, religion vs science arguments would be non-existant. Everyone would already know the truth.
The idea of the big bang and evolution is no more correct than the idea of there being a god. The big bang and evolution are just theories, educated guesses, of where we came from. Just like religion is no more than a way people made sense of the world around them in olden times (in a non-believer\'s point of view, anyways). Yes, we know more about the universe, science, and mathematics than the people did in Bible times, but that does not mean our conclusions are more correct. We might be trying so hard to discover an alternative answer to who we are and where we came from, that we are looking over the obvious -- the thing that has been known to the world for centuries now -- that there is a god. I\'m not saying that you have to believe in God, or that people who don\'t believe in god are just ignorant, or anything like that. I\'m just saying that it is a huge fallacy on your part to think that your non-religious beliefs are so much more accurate than the beliefs of people who believe in god.
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Originally posted by FifaSeriesFan
I believe in God and Aliens Adan...does that prove anything?
*Fifaseriesfan runs off ashamed and confesses his sins to the nearest tramp in exchange for a half drunken bottle of Jack Daniels
I don\'t go to church cause sundays are for hangover recoveries.
Speaking of Jack Daniels....*hides whiskey bottle*....anywho, I think its disgusting that the Anglican Church hasn\'t done anything about this yet. Have they forgotten what the Bible says about homosexuality? hrmph. They need to get their act together.
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Originally posted by IronFist
Kidding? Why would you say that? Are you saying that you have proof that the big bang really happened? Are you saying you have proof that evolution occured? I would tell you to go ahead and show me that proof, but I know you couldn\'t find any. If there were proof of those things, religion vs science arguments would be non-existant. Everyone would already know the truth.
The idea of the big bang and evolution is no more correct than the idea of there being a god. The big bang and evolution are just theories, educated guesses, of where we came from. Just like religion is no more than a way people made sense of the world around them in olden times (in a non-believer\'s point of view, anyways). Yes, we know more about the universe, science, and mathematics than the people did in Bible times, but that does not mean our conclusions are more correct. We might be trying so hard to discover an alternative answer to who we are and where we came from, that we are looking over the obvious -- the thing that has been known to the world for centuries now -- that there is a god. I\'m not saying that you have to believe in God, or that people who don\'t believe in god are just ignorant, or anything like that. I\'m just saying that it is a huge fallacy on your part to think that your non-religious beliefs are so much more accurate than the beliefs of people who believe in god.
I never stated my opinion is the truth, however, you can\'t possibly deny that with the current knowledge we have among us, evolution is much more likely to have happened than the bible theorie. I always say: never exclude any possibility, but believe in what\'s most likely at the moment, and that\'s gotta be evolution.
the clue\'s to evolution being true are way more believable and based on facts.
Give me one reasonable fact that can proof the god theorie is true! please!
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Deny evolution is, perhaps, one of the most stupid things you can say right now.
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I really agree with adan on this one. I was catholic for 16 years until i decided to be atheist (well 15 if you count me being agnostic) and I didn\'t agree with anything the church was doing. People are throwing their lives away to something that isn\'t even proved to have existed except for those select \'few\' that god comes to them in a dream. Thats proof? I had a dream a couple nights ago when you said "shlong" (don\'t ask), the gates of hell opened. So does that mean when I say shlong i see hell? A dream is a dream not to be taken literally. If god appeared in a dream and said kill the president, would you do it? I wouldn\'t because its a stupid dream. I\'ve had dreams about hot chicks that want an orgy. Is that gonna happen? no.
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If God existed, he had already fixed the situation of those kids that are starving all around the world, I\'m sure. But, he doesn\'t exist.
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I asked my mom about that one time....i think. I asked someone and someone said that god likes to put challenges in front of humans. WTF would he do that? Does he enjoy watching humans suffer? It doesnt\' make sense. If god is so loving, he\'d stop suffering. Oh but the religious people would say \'oh, they don\'t believe in him or don\'t believe in him enough\'. Now if that were true, i\'d be living in poverty, half the people in this board would be in poverty or suffering. these things lead me to believe there is no god.
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Titan, if there was god, why he would allow those priests in church that kill people and run, that have sex with children and shut up, that rob and hide... there is so much BAD in Church to believe in sth. Why GOD would have allow to kill millions and millions of innocent people througout the history by Church "in name of God"... all the ways lead to the same idea... and all you know.
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Evolution has proof though, such as fossils showing slow changes in animals etc...
it makes more sense that animals would adapt and change rather then, a higher being creating them one by one....
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Originally posted by Adan
Titan, if there was god, why he would allow those priests in church that kill people and run, that have sex with children and shut up, that rob and hide... there is so much BAD in Church to believe in sth. Why GOD would have allow to kill millions and millions of innocent people througout the history by Church "in name of God"... all the ways lead to the same idea... and all you know.
Ah, I see what your saying and I agree with every word. But it could also be "Gods plan" as I\'m always told :rolleyes: God might want these innocent people to die. He wants priests maoulesting children. I stopped believing in god because there is too much curruption in the catholic (what I was) church. That and religion is kind of full of holes. I read parts of the bible last year and said to my self "man, none of this can physically happen". What first got me questioning was a book called "Inherit the Wind". Anyone else read that?
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Politiepet:
...you can\'t possibly deny that with the current knowledge we have among us, evolution is much more likely to have happened than the bible theorie.
But I do deny that. Because my beliefs are different than yours, I think it is much more likely that the "Bible theory" is correct. To me, the evolution theory, while based on facts, is just man\'s guess as to where we came from. But the Bible theory is God\'s answer to where we came from. No guess work is needed, because it has already been revealed to us by God himself. Religious people don\'t need scientific evidence that God exists, and that is why this religion vs science debate will never end. It\'s not that I am ignorant or anything, because I do understand both sides of the argument, and I can definitely see why you believe more in science than religion. But I believe in God. I believe it so much in fact, that even if I tried I couldn\'t not believe in God.
Titan:
People are throwing their lives away to something that isn\'t even proved to have existed except for those select \'few\' that god comes to them in a dream. Thats proof?
You out of all people should know that religion, and the belief in god is based on faith. God has said time and time again that you will know that he exists after you have faith that he exists. Faith is needed first, then the proof will come.
I had a dream a couple nights ago when you said "shlong" (don\'t ask), the gates of hell opened. So does that mean when I say shlong i see hell? A dream is a dream not to be taken literally. If god appeared in a dream and said kill the president, would you do it? I wouldn\'t because its a stupid dream.
I don\'t remember even one time that God appeared to his prophets in a dream. To the best of my knowledge, he always appeared to them in person, while they were awake. Dreams are just dreams. They are not used by God to give revelation to the prophets. That would be way too confusing for the prophets if they had to decide which dreams were from God and which dreams were just their own subconcious mind.
Titan and Adan:
Originally posted by Adan:
If God existed, he had already fixed the situation of those kids that are starving all around the world, I\'m sure. But, he doesn\'t exist.
Originally posted by Titan:
I asked someone and someone said that god likes to put challenges in front of humans. WTF would he do that? Does he enjoy watching humans suffer? It doesnt\' make sense.
If there was no sadness, there could be no happiness. If there was no bad, there could be no good. If got made sure that everyone always had what they wanted, and never allowed us to experience the bad things in life, than we could never be happy. We would be like Adam and Eve -- completely innocent and ignorant of everything. We could never experience the happy times in our lives, because we wouldn\'t have any other emotion to compare it to. We would not be happy or sad; we would just live our lives without even knowing that there is such a thing as happy and sad. We would be drones without emotion. That is why god allows suffering in this world. If he took suffering away from us, he would be taking away our freedom.
Adan:
why he would allow those priests in church that kill people and run, that have sex with children and shut up, that rob and hide...
Because if God prevented that, that he would be taking away their freedom. In this world, God has allowed us to do whatever we want, completely uncontrolled by him. Our free will is important to God.
Deadly Hamster:
Evolution has proof though, such as fossils showing slow changes in animals etc...
That isn\'t proof, its evidence. Based on that evidence, people have come up with a theory that we all evolved from one single cell. Religion has evidence too. The bible itself, a compilation of stories spanning 4000 years, is evidence for religion. The dead sea scrolls, supporting the stories in the bible, is more evidence. It doesn\'t prove anything, but it does support the possibility of religion being true. Just like the evidence for evolution supports the possibility of evolution being true.it makes more sense that animals would adapt and change rather then, a higher being creating them one by one....
To you it does. To me it doesn\'t though.
Titan:
That and religion is kind of full of holes. I read parts of the bible last year and said to my self "man, none of this can physically happen".
If God exists, then surely all things are possible, right? Obviously if you don\'t believe in God, than you won\'t believe the stories in the Bible. Afterall, the Bible is a book based on God.
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You out of all people should know that religion, and the belief in god is based on faith. God has said time and time again that you will know that he exists after you have faith that he exists. Faith is needed first, then the proof will come.
I had faith for over 16 years and nothing. I didn\'t see a reason. I started believing scientific theories and its possible evidence. I thought those sounded better than a \'being\' appearing and creating the world for us.
If God exists, then surely all things are possible, right? Obviously if you don\'t believe in God, than you won\'t believe the stories in the Bible. Afterall, the Bible is a book based on God.
You probably know this but those stories were written down years after jesus lived and died. Things could have gotten twisted around. Its kind of like the game telephone. People add stuff, take away stuff or completely exagerated. Also, the bible could have been a story book not to be taken literally. They chose jesus because of his devotion and how he always cared. Anyway, thats just my theory. I really admire your enthusiasm Iron Fist and not trying to change that or anything. You are a good person to debate religion with other than *cough* clowd *hack* :)
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Make note: I am not religious, but Iron Fist is damn educated in his religion and theory.
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Titan:
I really admire your enthusiasm Iron Fist and not trying to change that or anything. You are a good person to debate religion with other than *cough* clowd *hack* :)
Hey, clowd isn\'t so bad. :) He and I are alike in many ways. He really reminds me of how I used to be on these forums just a couple years ago. Heh. :)
But anyways, sometimes I feel a little too enthusiastic, and I feel like I go to far (I\'m sure lots of people are sick of reading my religious posts :)). If you get sick of hearing me talk about my beliefs, go ahead and tell me to shut up. I won\'t be offended. :)
You probably know this but those stories were written down years after jesus lived and died.
Actually, no, I didn\'t know that. I guess I\'ve never really thought about it. Thanks for bringing it up.
After doing some research, I have found that you are right -- Many of the books were written years after the events happened. It is believed that Luke didn\'t even see the events of Christ\'s ministry first hand. He got his information from the apostle Paul and other missionaries. But I still believe that the events told in the Bible are true. Take the four books on Christ\'s life, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Even though these books were written by different people, at different times, in different places, they all contain many of the same events. And the details of these events are the same in each version, for the most part. Some versions have additional details that other versions left out, but they all support each other. I don\'t think there could be four seperate accounts saying the same things unless the events really did take place.
Things could have gotten twisted around. Its kind of like the game telephone. People add stuff, take away stuff or completely exagerated.
I agree with you to an extent, but I also disagree. If the Bible is a book written for the purpose of guiding future generations to salvation, there is no way God would allow his prophets to write false things into it. Not even exagerations. He would not lead us astray. As it says in 2 Timothy 3:16, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine...[and] instruction in righteousness." I guess it\'s kind of circular logic to use a scripture to show that the things the prophets wrote can be trusted, but hey, its a nice scripture. I had to use it. :) So I believe that the when the scriptures were originally written by the various prophets and apostles, they were written under the supervision of God himself. I believe that the things written really did happen.
And now, the part where I kind of agree with you about the Bible stories losing their accuracy as time went on...
I entered this thread defending religion as a whole. And I still believe that every religion that teaches good morals and kindness is a good thing. I even support the religions that some people call corrupt (it isn\'t fair to call a whole organization corrupt based just a small number of the members). But this is where my beliefs of the Bible break away from the rest of the Christian community. I believe that when the apostles were killed off after Christ\'s death, the church that Christ established on this world apostized. For nearly two thousand years, the churches on this world were self governed -- not lead by Christ. Through the innumerable translations and revisions, the bible slowly changed from how it was originally written. Because the translators were not being lead by God, they made mistakes and did things they didn\'t realize were wrong. Many things were purposely taken out or altered, not because the people doing the revisions wanted the Bible to be untrue, but possibly because the people wanted to make sure the Bible matched their own beliefs.
I believe that later on in the 1800s, when God set up his church on the earth again, he had his prophet fix many of the problems that were in the Bible. This fixed version of the Bible is called the Joseph Smith translation. He was able to retranslate a lot of the Bible, the first 6 or 7 entire chapters in Genesis, and lots of select scriptures throughout the whole Bible, but he was killed before he was able to finish his work. So I believe that the Joseph Smith translation version of the Bible is the most correct version, but it is still not exactly how it was when it was first written.
Just to clarify though, even without the Joseph Smith translation, the Bible is an invaluble tool that can guide us every day of our lives. After two thousand years of slight alterations, the Bible still contains the truth; just not the full truth.
Also, the bible could have been a story book not to be taken literally.
I just don\'t think this is plausible. The bible has 4000 years of records in it. It wasn\'t just one person, or even a group of people getting together to write this book. It is a compilation of records, from many different generations, that all point to the same thing. It doesn\'t make sense that over the timeframe of 4000 years, a book was written by many different people just for the heck of it.
I had faith for over 16 years and nothing. I didn\'t see a reason. I started believing scientific theories and its possible evidence. I thought those sounded better than a \'being\' appearing and creating the world for us.
I was born into a Mormon family, and grew up in the church. I pretty much believed in what my parents believed throughout my whole childhood -- like most religious children do. Around the same age you were at when you stopped believing, my church leaders started to tell us that we needed to stop riding around on our parent\'s coat tails and develop our own testimony of God and the church. It was around this same time that I was questioning the same things you were questioning. The whole idea of there being a God, the very thing I grew up believing, just sounded so strange. The story of where we came from, who we are, and where we are going sounded like a story in a video game. The whole idea of there being a life after this one, a life of much greater magnitude than this one just boggled my mind. I figured I had to find out the truth. I had three real choices, continue to blindly believe the things taught to me in church, blindly believe the scientist\'s theories that were taught to me in school, or actually try to find out the truth for myself. I was sick of not knowing for sure, and I didn\'t want to just believe other people anymore.
So I took the advice given in both the books of James and Moroni:
James 1: 5-6:
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Moroni 10: 3-5:
Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
God wants every person in the world to believe in him, but he cannot just reveal himself to us. That would take away our freedom to believe in what we want to believe in. He can only make his presence known if we ask "with a sincere heart, with real intent, and having faith in Christ."
Living-In-Clip:
Make note: I am not religious, but Iron Fist is damn educated in his religion and theory.
Thank you LIC. I appreciate the compliment. I\'ve still got a long ways to go though; a lot more to learn and understand.
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I just had the urge to reply to this crazy thread.
Ironfirst:
When Adan and Titan said this:
Originally posted by Adan:
If God existed, he had already fixed the situation of those kids that are starving all around the world, I\'m sure. But, he doesn\'t exist.
Originally posted by Titan:
I asked someone and someone said that god likes to put challenges in front of humans. WTF would he do that? Does he enjoy watching humans suffer? It doesnt\' make sense.
You replied with:
If there was no sadness, there could be no happiness. If there was no bad, there could be no good. If got made sure that everyone always had what they wanted, and never allowed us to experience the bad things in life, than we could never be happy. We would be like Adam and Eve -- completely innocent and ignorant of everything. We could never experience the happy times in our lives, because we wouldn\'t have any other emotion to compare it to. We would not be happy or sad; we would just live our lives without even knowing that there is such a thing as happy and sad. We would be drones without emotion. That is why god allows suffering in this world. If he took suffering away from us, he would be taking away our freedom.
Since Adan and Titan were talking about starving children and suffering I suppose you mean that for us in the rich world to be able to feel "happy" we need to see children in the poor world starve to death? All misery in the world is here so the ones not suffering should be able to feel that they are having good lives??
That doesn\'t make sense and I\'m sure you wouldn\'t have given that explanation if you were a child starving in a poor country.
When you were questioning your belief, why did you take help of religious books to decide what to believe? That doesn\'t make sense either.
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Originally posted by Bjorn
That doesn\'t make sense and I\'m sure you wouldn\'t have given that explanation if you were a child starving in a poor country.
When you were questioning your belief, why did you take help of religious books to decide what to believe? That doesn\'t make sense either.
that\'s what I thought!
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Originally posted by IronFist
But anyways, sometimes I feel a little too enthusiastic, and I feel like I go to far (I\'m sure lots of people are sick of reading my religious posts :)). If you get sick of hearing me talk about my beliefs, go ahead and tell me to shut up. I won\'t be offended. :)
No, don\'t shut up. I admire you for that. I admire you for standing up to your beliefs and not making stupid remarks like others do. And you also don\'t insist that you are right like others do.
After doing some research, I have found that you are right -- Many of the books were written years after the events happened. It is believed that Luke didn\'t even see the events of Christ\'s ministry first hand. He got his information from the apostle Paul and other missionaries. But I still believe that the events told in the Bible are true. Take the four books on Christ\'s life, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Even though these books were written by different people, at different times, in different places, they all contain many of the same events. And the details of these events are the same in each version, for the most part. Some versions have additional details that other versions left out, but they all support each other. I don\'t think there could be four seperate accounts saying the same things unless the events really did take place.
I\'m gonna use an example for trying to prove my point. I\'m gonna take the Three Little Pigs. Ok, four generations fathers are telling the story of the three little pigs to their children. One may read it from the book. Then, the son grows up and tells the story to his child from what his father said. He adds some stuff like the wolf had grey fur and changed the fact that the pigs ran into the others house. Then that child grows up. He tells his son that one of the pigs was running to the brick house, fell and twisted his ankle and the other pig saved him before the wolf got to them. That child grows up and tells the story as he was told. He takes out the falling down part but adds that he ran into the door and got knocked out. He also then adds that the wolf doesn\'t get boiled to death down the chimney but rather falls in the chimney and catches fire. Then that child grows up and tells his son the story but adds that the brick house was actually made of stone. This is just an addition to what I was saying before.
I agree with you to an extent, but I also disagree. If the Bible is a book written for the purpose of guiding future generations to salvation, there is no way God would allow his prophets to write false things into it.
No arguement here. Its to help guide people but all I\'m saying is that some things may have been exagerated or misinterpreted like in my three little pigs story.
I believe that later on in the 1800s, when God set up his church on the earth again, he had his prophet fix many of the problems that were in the Bible. This fixed version of the Bible is called the Joseph Smith translation. He was able to retranslate a lot of the Bible, the first 6 or 7 entire chapters in Genesis, and lots of select scriptures throughout the whole Bible, but he was killed before he was able to finish his work. So I believe that the Joseph Smith translation version of the Bible is the most correct version, but it is still not exactly how it was when it was first written.
I have nothing to say except that I don\'t believe thats possible.
Just to clarify though, even without the Joseph Smith translation, the Bible is an invaluble tool that can guide us every day of our lives. After two thousand years of slight alterations, the Bible still contains the truth; just not the full truth.
I agree with what your saying. The Bible really does help people through life. It offers some guidance but I just don\'t think it was originally made to be taken literally but infact to just help people along with stories of Jesus.
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Bjorn:
Since Adan and Titan were talking about starving children and suffering I suppose you mean that for us in the rich world to be able to feel "happy" we need to see children in the poor world starve to death? All misery in the world is here so the ones not suffering should be able to feel that they are having good lives?
No, that\'s not what I meant...let me clarify a little bit. The reason God is just standing by as those poor kids suffer is because if they never have sadness, then they could never have happiness. Sure, their lives are hard in this world, but after their physical death, just imagine their happiness when the pains that they suffered are no longer a part of their lives. If those kids never experience hard times, then heaven would seam no better than this world. It would be no more than just another place to live, with no feelings and no happiness. Like I said, if we never had hard times in our lives, we would all just be drones without emotion.
Towards the end of the prophet Joseph Smith\'s life, he had been unfairly thrown into jail, and the other church members were being killed and driven out of their homes. After Joseph Smith was there for a few months, he became consumed with sadness and cried out to the Lord to stop the suffering of his people:
"O GOD, where art thou? And where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place? How long shall thy hand be stayed, and thine eye, yea thy pure eye, behold from the eternal heavens the wrongs of thy people and of thy servants, and thine ear be penetrated with their cries? Yea, O Lord, how long shall they suffer these wrongs and unlawful oppressions, before thine heart shall be softened toward them, and thy bowels be moved with compassion toward them?..."
The Lord responded:
"...And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good."
Even the hardest times in our lives are meant to help us. The harder the bad times in our lives are, the happier the good times will be.
When you were questioning your belief, why did you take help of religious books to decide what to believe? That doesn\'t make sense either.
If you were looking for the truth, wouldn\'t you consider all possibilities? And wouldn\'t you look into all of those possibilities? I didn\'t want to just blindly believe what others were saying anymore, so I had to look into things myself. And because I was open minded to both sides, science and religion, I had to do research in both. If I didn\'t use religious books while researching religion, than I wouldn\'t have been giving both possibilities a equal chance of being true.
Titan:
I\'m gonna use an example for trying to prove my point. I\'m gonna take the Three Little Pigs. Ok, four generations fathers are telling the story of the three little pigs to their children. One may read it from the book. Then, the son grows up and tells the story to his child from what his father said. He adds some stuff like the wolf had grey fur and changed the fact that the pigs ran into the others house... This is just an addition to what I was saying before.
I will be thinking aloud, so get ready to be confused. :)
I guess it all depends on when the books were written, where they were written, and what books were already available to the person writing the book. For example, if Mark had a finished copy of the book of Matthew before writing his book, then your theory would make sense -- he could have read the events that Matthew said happened, then just added things to them. But there is nothing that would point to this being a possibility. We don\'t even know when exactly the four books were written, or what sources were available to the authors.
Another possibility is that the stories in the Bible originated from one man. For example, Matthew told the other apostles that an event happened, and the other apostles believed him and wrote about it as if it really did happen. But this wouldn\'t make sense because in many stories there were multiple witnesses to the events -- such as the calming of the sea or the fisherman story.
The fact that the different accounts of each story came from four different people causes me to lean towards the side of the events really taking place instead of the events just being fake. Matthew and John witnessed it first hand, Luke got his info from the apostle Paul, who witnessed it first hand, and Mark got his info from the apostle Peter, who witnessed it first hand. This leads to two possibilities. Either the events really did happen, or Paul, Peter, Matthew, and John all got together and concocted a story that made Jesus seem like the son of God and the savior of the world. I admit that that last theory is a possibility, but it would lead to more problems...
How would one explain the prophesies in the Old Testiment that gave specific details pertaining to the life of Christ? That he would be born in bethlehem. That he would be born of a virgin (although this is arguable depending on if you actually believe it happened or not, the apostles did believe it happened and stated it as fact), that Kings of other nations would bring him gifts at his birth, that he would be rejected by the rulers of the people, that he would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, etc. There were many prophesies in the old testiment that were fullfilled in Christ\'s life. To me this means that the events really did happen, and that Christ really was the savior of the world that had been prophesied to come for thousands of years.
I hope that wasn\'t too confusing. I was just trying to look at it from all angles to see if different theories made sense.
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if that\'s true, than why don\'t we get the suffering those starving people have?
why are we treated differently?
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Originally posted by politiepet
if that\'s true, than why don\'t we get the suffering those starving people have?
why are we treated differently?
I know that the hard times that all of us have are meant to strengthen us, to test us, and to prepare us for the life after this one. But I\'m not completely sure why some go through harder times than others do here on earth. Using reasoning and the beliefs that I have, I can probably come up with some sort of answer, but it is only a guess...
1. Because God has given us free will, he has allowed the world to turn out the way it is. For thousands of years he allowed his children to do whatever they wanted. The decisions of the past have lead to the world that we live in today. It might be just by chance that we were born in the environments that we are in today. We just need to make the best of the situation that we are in.
2. We all experience difficult times in our lives. And we all have to overcome those difficult times. Exactly what those difficult things are, though, varies from person to person. Maybe this is what God wanted, because if we all had the exact same problems, we probably would have worked together and found a solution to those problems thousands and thousands of years ago. This would lead to us not having trials in this life anymore.
I know it\'s not much of an answer, but as of right now it\'s the best I can give.
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So....if I get this right, we should all be jealous of those starving, hungry africans?
I don\'t buy that!
and on another note, how is evolution any more man\'s guess than the bible theorie? please explain
ps. to make things clear, I don\'t intend to sound offensive by any means :)
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holy shit! (no pun intended)
I\'ve started a full scale global religious war!
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.centerstagetheater.org%2Fshows%2Fdevil.gif&hash=02d04aee6405cf5fcb39338569af93893bdaa756)
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Ironfist: I think your guessing sounds pretty messed up. It must be hard to beleive in a "God" that just stands by and looks at your misery. Doesn\'t seem like something that helps you at all.
But if you want to suffer a bit more now then you can send all your cash and belongings to me and you\'ll will feel so much better later on in "heaven" ;)
If you were looking for the truth, wouldn\'t you consider all possibilities? And wouldn\'t you look into all of those possibilities? I didn\'t want to just blindly believe what others were saying anymore, so I had to look into things myself. And because I was open minded to both sides, science and religion, I had to do research in both. If I didn\'t use religious books while researching religion, than I wouldn\'t have been giving both possibilities a equal chance of being true.
Sounds fair. But I\'m interested in one thing: When you compared your religion against other religions, what made you decide that your was the "correct" one?
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IronFist are you Mormon?
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CIRCLES AND CIRCLES AND CIRCLES AND CIRCLES AND NOT ONE LINE :D
INTERSECTS WITH THE MAIN POINT
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Originally posted by FifaSeriesFan
WTF?!?
Gay bishop vows to stay with partner
LONDON (Reuters) - Sex and homosexuality have ignited a heated debate within the Church of England after its first-ever openly gay bishop vowed to stay with his male partner, testing the tolerance of senior church members.
Defying calls by some within the Anglican church that he should stand down, newly-appointed Jeffrey John, 50, said he had no intention of quitting his post as suffragan (assistant) Bishop of Reading.
"We will remain together," John told Thursday\'s Times of his 27-year-long homosexual relationship.
"The relationship has not been sexually expressed for years. The love and commitment are, if anything, greater," he said.
The controversy surrounding John\'s appointment -- backed by some bishops but questioned by others -- has renewed divisive debate among Anglicans grappling with questions of sex and homosexuality, a particularly sharp thorn in the side of the church, especially in recent months.
The Archbishop of Canterbury, spiritual leader of the world\'s 70 million Anglicans, expressed dismay last month that a bishop on Canada\'s west coast had decided to authorise blessing ceremonies of same-sex couples.
And earlier this month, New Hampshire Episcopalians -- a U.S. version of the Anglican Church -- elected their first openly gay bishop.
John\'s appointment drew difficult questions from several other bishops, who this week published an open letter expressing their concerns:
"Dr John has many admirable qualities for the work of a bishop. But the issue is \'what is acceptable sexual behaviour in God\'s sight?\'" part of the letter read.
Defining acceptable sexual behaviour has never been easy for Anglicans.
"The official position is that the church is in the middle of a long-running debate about human sexuality," Church of England spokesman Steve Jenkins told Reuters.
The church\'s 1991 policy paper "Issues in Human Sexuality", which allows gay relationships among the laity but demands that gay priests should be celibate, has hardly clarified the issue or calmed debate.
One church member who asked not to be named said:
"This case may be just what the long-running debate needed to move forward".
Wasn\'t this the church founded by King somebody because he wanted to divorce his wife? Why do they really care what their priests do? and that church has 70 million members?!!? Geez!
Eric Jacob
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Politiepet:
Originally posted by politiepet
So....if I get this right, we should all be jealous of those starving, hungry africans?
Not at all. We should be thankful for the good lives that we have. It\'s true, the challenges in our lives are not nearly as miserable as the people\'s who are starving, freezing, and homeless. But we all have challenges. Just because our challenges are not the same as those people\'s doesn\'t mean we can\'t get experience and grow from the hard times in our lives.
and on another note, how is evolution any more man\'s guess than the bible theorie? please explain
That was exactly my point back on page two. To the non-believer, both religion and evolution are just theories. Because they are just ideas, one is not more likely to have happened than another. So a person should not be surprised when someone believes in religion over science, because they are just both theories -- just ideas of where we came from based on evidence.
But to the believer, the "Bible theory" isn\'t really a theory at all. It DID happen -- FACT (in the believers eyes).
Bjorn:
Ironfist: I think your guessing sounds pretty messed up. It must be hard to beleive in a "God" that just stands by and looks at your misery. Doesn\'t seem like something that helps you at all.
Well how much could you improve if you had someone else walking besides you doing everything for you? It is because God loves us, and because he wants us to grow, that he does not step in and make everything perfect for us.
But if you want to suffer a bit more now then you can send all your cash and belongings to me and you\'ll will feel so much better later on in "heaven"
My money situation is bad enough as it is -- but thanks for the offer. ;) :D
When you compared your religion against other religions, what made you decide that your was the "correct" one?
I would be lying if I said that I didn\'t have at least a little bias towards the church I grew up in. But I did look at the other churches, and the other beliefs, and they all had slight problems with them, or small things that I just didn\'t agree with. My church exists because all of the other churches were supposedly not completely correct -- and I tended to agree with that.
But all the studying and comparing religions in the world couldn\'t give me the answer. If it could, then there wouldn\'t be any doubt by anyone of which church was true. The real proof came to me when I did as the Bible and Book of Mormon said. I asked God himself. If a person really wants to know the truth, and is willing to put forth the effort to find out, then God has promised that he will tell that person the truth through the Holy Ghost. It wasn\'t until then that I knew without any doubt which church was true.
Cyrus:
IronFist are you Mormon?
I\'m a bit hesitant to say, because just about everyone in this thread thinks I\'m crazy. :) But yes, I am. I think most people already knew that from previous threads anyways. That\'s why I used quotes from the Book of Mormon and D&C in some of my posts.
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Ironfist:
The real proof came to me when I did as the Bible and Book of Mormon said. I asked God himself. If a person really wants to know the truth, and is willing to put forth the effort to find out, then God has promised that he will tell that person the truth through the Holy Ghost. It wasn\'t until then that I knew without any doubt which church was true.
So “God” spoke to you through the “holy ghost”? What happened?
Ironfist:
That was exactly my point back on page two. To the non-believer, both religion and evolution are just theories. Because they are just ideas, one is not more likely to have happened than another. So a person should not be surprised when someone believes in religion over science, because they are just both theories -- just ideas of where we came from based on evidence.
But to the believer, the "Bible theory" isn\'t really a theory at all. It DID happen -- FACT (in the believers eyes).
I have some problems with your definitions here. In science a theory is something that explains many facts, i.e. the theory of evolution explains a lot of facts. However a theory can be changed or replaced if new scientific evidence was presented that contradict the theory.
The religious creationism isn’t much of a theory, it can’t be changed, it is written as a “fact” and no amount of scientific evidence could change it… it has already been written as a “fact”. A “fact” that can’t be proven true, so not a fact actually.
So you are really trivialising when you are writing like that, or should I say, spreading disinformation.
Would you like the schools to teach medicine by the use of supernatural forces as witch doctors do?
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Ironfist - I try and stay out of the religious threads and actually avoided this one until the day I posted that The only thing my dad taught me that was worth anything was " Dont talk religon or politics with you friends" so I dont. I was baptised mormon and stayed active from 7 when I was baptised to about well just before my mission so you know when that was. Was I trying to make a point hmmm I guess not. Just testing the fact of weather or not I could still pic em out..
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Originally posted by FifaSeriesFan
holy shit! (no pun intended)
I\'ve started a full scale global religious war!
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.centerstagetheater.org%2Fshows%2Fdevil.gif&hash=02d04aee6405cf5fcb39338569af93893bdaa756)
Damn right you have :rpissed: :mecry: and seeing that its you I’ll be round later to show you what the Spanish inquisition did to people they didn’t like ;)
:moon: :wave:
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You have studied deeply the spanish inquisition or what ooseven?
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Bjorn:
So "God" spoke to you through the "holy ghost"? What happened?
I then knew what church was true. That\'s what happened. :p
Actually, I would prefer not to talk about it, but I can tell you just what the Holy Ghost is and how it communicates with people if you want me to.
I have some problems with your definitions here...
Speaking of trivializing, who\'s the one who brought semantics into this debate? ;) I don\'t mean to be misleading, and I especially don\'t mean to spread disinformation. I am not even the one who started using the word "theory" to describe the beliefs of religious people. I just continued to use it because that is what others were using. I guess you are right and it is not a theory at all. It\'s just a set of beliefs.
And the use of the word "fact" was the wrong word to use there, but I used it to emphasize just how much the religious people believe in what they believe in. To them, the truth (God) can never be changed -- it will always be the truth in their minds. Hence the word fact.
Would you like the schools to teach medicine by the use of supernatural forces as witch doctors do?
I don\'t understand. Why are you asking this question? I just can\'t see the context of it. But to answer the question, of course not. They should continue to teach what they know works.
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I don\'t think IronFist means science as a science isn\'t fact, more like the big bang and evolution and such.
EDIT - since I don\'t think you got my PM, Iron, what happened with the mission? When are you going? I myself have my 1st interview this week, so expecting about 3 months or so and I will be out.
Eric Jacob
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And after every single one of these threads it turns into the same outcome.
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ehh, this one has remained pretty calm, nothing like the 400+ thread on religion of old.
Man those were fun times.
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I got it, but your PM is full so I can\'t reply. I even made a thread in OT saying "AlteredBeast -- clean out your PM."
So clean out your PM.
BTW, how was getting your wisdom teeth out?
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sorry man, I deleted some messages, please try again.
not bad, though. I got about 10 shots and then they pretty much just popped out. They were already erupted so they came out nice and easy. Odd trying to get used to not having those teeth back there, those suckers were huge!
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I still says it\'s full. Just email me your email address at ironfistfaqs@yahoo.com and I\'ll email you.
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Christandom is going down the tube, anyone could see that
The thing is, are these Churches falling because they are teaching the things Christ taught or just the opposite?
Something to think about
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.....or not........