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Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Black Samurai on November 13, 2003, 07:18:03 AM
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Then whats the deal with evolution(ie. natural selection)? I don\'t think it has been proven as of yet either.
So why is one bad but the other good when neither can be proven to be true?
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Some people really think God is gonna talk to people 4 thousand years ago about the DNA, laws of physics, chemistry and all things we\'re bound to? Nope. Heck....the language back then had no word for Solar System and such. :)
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^^^What the heck are you talking about? What does that have to do with evolution?
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Sorry. Just a side remark about Creationst vs Evolutionist. Evolutionists and atheist will always later say "Why didn\'t God put that in the Bible if He\'s God?"
:)
You\'ll see. A few atheists here will have some rather condescending comments about Genesis.
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^^True.
So let me say first that this is not a creation vs. evolution argument. I\'m merely trying to have a discussion about evolution.
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I found this and this is exactly the words I would have used....if I had 30 extra IQ points in my noggin. I gotta stop going to Wal-Mart and getting my IQ sucked out by the dolts that work there (you know about osmosis, right? :p )
I believe in God. I believe God created the universe and earth and humankind through the agency of natural law; God acts almost solely through the agency of natural law. Natural selection and genetics are the mechanisms God has used to bring us to our current state of being, in other words. In revelations to humankind in earlier ages, the Lord used languages, necessarily, that persons of that age were capable of understanding, and thus did not go into detail as to the mechanism of biology, physics, geology, chemistry, and astronomy -- and, in fact, doing so would have detracted from the purpose of God\'s revelation, which was to guide us spiritually and morally.
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So I take it you\'re a biblefreak. ;)
By using your own standard - \'the evil atheists\' say evolution is good and creationism is bad. You think otherwise, that evolution is bad and creationism is good (and true). So I can turn the tables and say why is creationism good and evolution bad? Then we can discuss for hours without accomplishing anything. So I\'ll just say... bleh. :p
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^^^I never mentioned athiests nor did I say that creation was good and evolution was bad.
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Originally posted by Black Samurai
^^^I never mentioned athiests nor did I say that creation was good and evolution was bad.
Nah, it was GmanJoe who mentioned atheists. I just imagined you\'d think the same. ;)
Again, I extrapolated from your word title and the fact that you mentioned \'creationism\' in - what I read as - a defending matter.
Many apologies if that wasn\'t your intention and/or opinion. :)
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Maybe I worded my question wrong?
Why is evolution the de facto explanation for the "origin of man" when there is no evidence to support the claim?
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Originally posted by Samwise
So I take it you\'re a biblefreak. ;)
By using your own standard - \'the evil atheists\' say evolution is good and creationism is bad. You think otherwise, that evolution is bad and creationism is good (and true). So I can turn the tables and say why is creationism good and evolution bad? Then we can discuss for hours without accomplishing anything. So I\'ll just say... bleh. :p
I\'ve never said that Evolution is bad or false, for that matter. In fact, the Pope (the current one) said that Evolution is something Catholics should embrace as true. God may have created Adam and Eve....but they weren\'t the only ones he created.
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Originally posted by Black Samurai
Why is evolution the de facto explanation for the "origin of man" when there is no evidence to support the claim?
As opposed to what... faith?
I\'d imagine religous people say the Bible (or whatever) is enough proof for them to believe what they do, while non-religous people would say the signs of evolution if enough proof for them.
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Why does it have to be black and white one or the other?
Neither one of them can be proven to be true so why can\'t it be something totally different?
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Originally posted by Black Samurai
Neither one of them can be proven to be true so why can\'t it be something totally different?
Well, it could, but you make it sound like evolution is totally unimaginable and that there aren\'t anything that points in that direction? I\'d say that\'s why evolution is the \'de facto\' standard, not just because someone thought it sounded fancy.
But we could all be wrong. For all we know aliens planted us here...
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What points in that direction? Tell me what you have seen or heard that leads you to believe that life on the planet as we now know it evolved from a one cell organism resting in primordial ooze.
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Originally posted by Black Samurai
What points in that direction? Tell me what you have seen or heard that leads you to believe that life on the planet as we now know it evolved from a one cell organism resting in primordial ooze.
As I\'m not a fancy scientist, nor do I have the time to discuss it in detail, I encourage you to seek out the answers to that yourself. Google.com might be of help there.
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So you believe in something; but you can\'t tell why in a few sentences? At least a creationist would say, "because the Bible said so, blah blah blah".
Anyone else?
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Originally posted by Black Samurai
So you believe in something; but you can\'t tell why in a few sentences? At least a creationist would say, "because the Bible said so, blah blah blah".
Bah Mr. Black Samurai. Creationists are lucky that way in the way that they can just say "because the bible says so". I can\'t say "look in the bible!111" and would have to refer to the work of a lot of scientists, their findings etc. So excuse me for not being able to deliver years and years of research in a single sentence.
EDIT: I guess I could say "because Charles Darwin said so!111". ;)
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A higher being such as god is so much more far fetched that people look at it this way. I mean it\'s like believing in santa claus, sorry kiddies.
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^^ Here they come. Vid should be along any minute now. :)
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I remember the singing...
"What if god is one of us. Just a slob like one of us...."
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Originally posted by Bozco
A higher being such as god is so much more far fetched that people look at it this way. I mean it\'s like believing in santa claus, sorry kiddies.
I see what you are saying.
But if there are two different answers given to the same question and neither of them can be shown as absolute truth why is the least far fetched answer accepted?
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God is a government funded lie.
Just like education.
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Well, orgasnisms are proven to adapt.... so why wouldn\'t they further adapt over time and evolve?
Makes more sense to me then a point of a finger then "poof!" man appears.
And i do not believe god made the universe, I do not believe the universe had a beginning. I do not think im right or wrong, but chances are im wrong.... we know nothing about the universe... But "creationism" seems totally illogical to me, especialy when you look at the laws of science....
Nearly all facts about evolution can be turned around as a fact for creationisim, because god is "all mighty" and can do whatever he wants.
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Why don\'t people make up sort of a mix of the 2 therories of how we came to be.
Heres how one might have happend:
Step 1: God creates big bang
Step 2: God takes certain chunks of rocks throws em together and says lets see what happens.
Step 3: God throws in some water air and carbon dioxide, 3 essential things that help this world survive.
Step 4: Some micro-organism is created and starts to multiply.
Skip ahead a few million years.....
That 1 micro-organism has evelved into many different organisms. Apes turn into us, problem solved, now all them nerdy scientists and religous people can live peacefully ever after.
The End
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Originally posted by Black Samurai
I see what you are saying.
But if there are two different answers given to the same question and neither of them can be shown as absolute truth why is the least far fetched answer accepted?
Neither is accepted... Evelotion is still considered a Theroy maybe one is accepted more than another that Im not sure of but there are many theory wich have no facts theyre based on a Hypothesis.
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Spudz should be banned from any thread that requires even a minute ammount of brain power.
I believe God did create the universe. In my mind, it seems more logical than "just happening"... Everything has a cause and effect, and in order to create such a miraculous universe it could only be done by a supreme power.
If anything is government funded and pounded into our heads, it\'s the idea of evolution.
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If God created the universe. Who created god? How is god just there and have such power to create the universe?
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God is the ultimate being... The head of everything... Nothing can be higher.
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I totally disagree I belive faith was created by man to force rules onto the unruly to give them some sort of fear of a "higher" power. It is in out nature by man to govern by fear. So we created a force that would damn you for all iterninty if you disobayed it.
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Where did god come from (creationist)
Where did elements come from (evolutionists)
Why is there anything....and where did this stuff all come from. Did it just one day appear... like hey heres air and heres rocks.... no one will ever know...until aliens tell us. TELL US YOU BASTARDS
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Things are as they are.
I totally disagree I belive faith was created by man to force rules onto the unruly to give them some sort of fear of a "higher" power. It is in out nature by man to govern by fear. So we created a force that would damn you for all iterninty if you disobayed it.
There is definitely something calling us. By nature we each have our own drive of which we can\'t explain. Something that compels us to move forward. It is our natural calling, that which can not be explained. The inventors, the thinkers, doctors, teachers...can\'t explain why they do what they do other than it makes them happy.
I think we place entirely to much emphasis on ourselves and what others think and as a result have lost our simple way of life. Some are too interested in inflating their egos and unfortunatley others fall victim to it.
By serving ones ego you have to be consciously aware you are acting out of self righteousness. Sin.
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Originally posted by Ginko
Things are as they are.
There is definitely something calling us. By nature we each have our own drive of which we can\'t explain. Something that compels us to move forward. It is our natural calling, that which can not be explained. The inventors, the thinkers, doctors, teachers...can\'t explain why they do what they do other than it makes them happy.
I think we place entirely to much emphasis on ourselves and what others think and as a result have lost our simple way of life. Some are too interested in inflating their egos and unfortunatley others fall victim to it.
By serving ones ego you have to be consciously aware you are acting out of self righteousness. Sin.
Dude....you like....added a new window through your mind. And it\'s not even a week since your new revelation began! :)
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It\'s amazing. That\'s all I can say. I think I\'ve smiled more in the past 2 days than I have in the past 2 years.
I even helped my friend out and now he\'s interested in reading what there is to know about Taoism. It\'s so simple.:)
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:nopics:
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Vivi come one, dude I know you live in Texas and all, but please don\'t embarass us too much!!!
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Originally posted by Black Samurai
So you believe in something; but you can\'t tell why in a few sentences? At least a creationist would say, "because the Bible said so, blah blah blah".
Anyone else?
There was this scientist. He did this experiment where he "duplicated" what earth was thought to be when it first appeared, a few days later, organisms came about.
There...it\'s alot more cool though.
From what I\'ve noticed from people I argue with, they can never prove anything without using the Bible first. The suffer from the fallacy of logical argument that assumes as true the very thing they are tyring to prove. 1. The Bible is the infallible word of God 2. The Bible says God exists. Therefore 3. God Exists. This girl was saying to me that everything in the Bible can be backed up by historical evidence, like those two cities that "God" destroyed, I can\'t remember which ones, and she tells me that God made some spark come from the air and lit them on fire. Then I show her the page where it says that the two cities are located right a long a fault, she says God probably put it there, I ask her why do you say that "b/c in the Bible"....and honestly, how can one guy fit a bunch of animals into a boat and somehow forget the dinosaurs...and how did he reproduce? INCEST?!
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I guess that\'s why there are people like ViVi about... all that incest that must have occured from two people having to make the rest of the world. :)
Who created God? Who created the \'thing\' that created God? And so forth...
Wait, I know the answer... because the Bible says so.
Sucks to be the billions of people who aren\'t Christians. They believed in the wrong thing all along. :)
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Do you guys not understand the concept of, "God". IT IS THE HIGHEST POINT. NOTHING CAN CREATE GOD. I think people\'s definitions are different because some of us know who God is, and others obviously don\'t. He is not Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
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Originally posted by SwifDi
He is not Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
Well, that\'s what you think.
BTW, Santa\'s not real either. ;)
But this is again a stupid point from the religious side - "GOD JUST IS!111", "IT\'S IN THE BIBLE!111". The easiest conclusions ever. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by SwifDi
Do you guys not understand the concept of, "God". IT IS THE HIGHEST POINT. NOTHING CAN CREATE GOD. I think people\'s definitions are different because some of us know who God is, and others obviously don\'t. He is not Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
You\'re the one that doesn\'t understand. I grasp the concept that nothing created "god" but what you\'re missing is that I don\'t think there is a god. I think their being a Santa Claus is equally likely to god existing.
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All of this talks remind of my high school. My English teacher teach English, and she brought religion to class. She talks about christianity and how something call leviathan created the great flood and how people before didn\'t believe christianity and catholic thing. She told us she\'s catholic.
Anyway, my point is, she\'s not suppose to talk religion in class. The Law said, school and religion should be seperated. Or something like that. I even know this guy who teach english does that too. I didn\'t think much about it until now you brought it up.
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if nothing can create god then you can\'t use the argument that god "had" to create the universe :P
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hmm..i\'d have to say that we just didn\'t pop up outa no-where. I believe in a higher power & yes you can say i was brought up that way but there\'s been to many times where i was in a bind and things just got better..call it guardian angels? Eh then again i\'ve always wondered what happened to all those people that died thousands of years ago? where do all of those souls go? hmpf...maybe we all come back as animals ...heh in that case don\'t step on that cockroach! could be related to ya!
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It would be really cool if we could just respect each others beliefs.
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Originally posted by Ace
It would be really cool if we could just respect each others beliefs.
Nah, where\'s the fun in that. ;)
Seek to understand others, before seeking to be understood.
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It would be really cool if we could just respect each others beliefs.
The thing people fail to realize is that it is so easy to do the above. Once you realize everything is as it is whether we label it or not you come to realize it exist and will continue to exist without understanding.:)
A bird can fly, but a fly can\'t bird.
Things are as they are as they will be.
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
There was this scientist. He did this experiment where he "duplicated" what earth was thought to be when it first appeared, a few days later, organisms came about.
There...it\'s alot more cool though.
You are being sarcastic, right?
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Originally posted by Samwise
Sucks to be the billions of people who aren\'t Christians. They believed in the wrong thing all along. :)
People should just be opened minded and less defensive. I attend church every sunday and I am a practicing Christian. But at the same time, I kind of believe in this whole evolution thing. It just makes sense more so than God creating everything.
bacteria > fish > reptiles > mammals
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birds
We all kind have simliarities and there is some factual evidence which supports natural selection and evolution. Unless you consider the Bible factual information, creationists have nothing but hope and faith.
EDIT: birds are from reptiles, didn\'t work in spacing
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Originally posted by Black Samurai
You are being sarcastic, right?
No, actually I have heard of this guy too. He put what he thought would have been on primitive earth at the time life would have "caught on" Things like Nitrogen, Hydrogen, Oxygen... and i think a few others along with some dirt and some bacteria started to grow.
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Are you sure it was a bacteria?
Couldn\'t that also lead credence to an argument for creation?
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Or maybe it was emboas or something (A - ME - BAS) but it was defintaly living according to my AP Biology teacher.
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Here swifdi; my REAL thoughts.
Religion is a guess. They created religion because man wanted to believe someone else was in a higher power, that their was a reason to live.
Science is a guess. They created science because man wanted to believe in something else, and not a higher power.
I myself think this; Why care? When we die we shall soon find out. Our lives are trivial. We go do the same things every day, and believe their is something better out their, we want to believe their is something out their. The meaning of life is to reproduce; to spread our genes onto to the next, to create a type of "immortality".
I have changed my thoughts on this completely in the last week or so, so dont take anything from the past and bring it unto me. I believe in what I believe now- Hmmm, just like how you can make someone else believe something so easily: Religion, Science ring a bell?
Its pointless to try to figure it out. Everyone thinks they know the answer. No one does, no one has the answer, no one will ever have the answer. We try to prove something right, when it isnt. Its all trivial, its all something mental, its pointless.
Dont get me wrong, I believe religion is an amazing tool. It brings people together as one humble body, but science can do the same too. I believe both are like a left and right hand to grasp the concept of life.
Ha ; I used my brain, or part of it.
BTW: My paragraphs summed up: Why do you have to believe in something? Why not live your life, when you die you will eventually figure it out, and spending your life arguing about it will just waste time.
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Meh... I hate science.
*shakes fist at C+ in Chem II*
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Well without science you would be a rotting carcass of flesh by now.
I know Religion can help people through hard times, but as does science. Without science after your first Cold you could be dead.
Without science you couldnt gel your hair, or your girlfriend couldnt wear lipstick.
Science causes problems, as does all things- but in reality everything has a purpose, and yet no purpose at all. Science is useless, but is a tool to live our lives more thouroughly and enjoyable.
Religion does exactly the same.
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I wonder why topics like this come up...they all lead to the same thing and the same people argue about the same thing.
I guess Samurai tried to avoid this by trying to narrow the topic down but it always broadens into "God created everything or Evolution created everything."
Look guys, before posting in a post like this, first, know your facts. I see posts in this topic that show a complete ignorance of evolution and creation. So how can you try to debate when you are not sure what both sides say?
And another thing, these type of discussions are usually useless. You aren\'t going to change a personal belief like evolution or creation on a Internet message board.
But I know posts like this will continue, some, like this, will have good intentions but will always turn to crap. You won\'t go far before someone insults another\'s beliefs. I\'ve done it lots of others have done it.
I\'m not going to even bother to explain my beliefs or whatever. If you want to know why I believe in the Genesis acount search for my Origin of Life post. I said all I ever needed to say there, well at least half of it
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I agree, endless argument. No one will win.
Anyone want cookies?
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And another thing, these type of discussions are usually useless. You aren\'t going to change a personal belief like evolution or creation on a Internet message board.
Nor should one attempt to. I believe it is interesting to see another worldly perspective so to speak so if anything just take away that you learned about someone else.
SER, what kind ya got?
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Cookies rock!
*busts out keg of milk.
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Woohoo! Hooray for killing threads!
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alliswell, no ones trying to change each others beliefs.
But i guess your right, we shouldn\'t discuss anything worth discussing...:rolleyes:
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Hmm, this thread is dead.
Only because I cant emphasize on my p.o.v. anymore.
:D
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And because spammers have ruined it :rolleyes: Even I have reformed a lot and I was like the resident spammer a year or two ago.
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Samurai, you\'re basically taking a comment and turning into some kind of contradictory question...
"It was bacteria..."
"ARE YOU SURE IT WAS A BACTERIA?"
That doesn\'t even make base to continue a good argument, yes it was bacteria, or some kind of living life form..Why? b/c it was done again and again and the results were the same.
I think the thread killers are those that always try to play the neutral card and say "It\'s their opinion.......everybody is entitled to their opinion..." and so on.
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[attempt to bring subject back]
G0d SuxXorz!!11
[/attempt]
Honestly though, Religion is a tool. It is used to make man and woman believe that their is a reason to live a good life; Heaven. It is nothing more than a tool, and it works. People devote their life and time to it.
If you think about how gulliable people were back in the early stages, religion would easily be accepted. If religion were to never have happened, and it was presented to modern day people; chances are it wouldnt be taken as serious. People back then were drones, people still are- but we have better understanding.
For your information; I believe in nothing. Actually, I believe we should just **** it all, and live our lifes according to our standards. People spend their lives trying to grasp concepts that are above the human mind, but when they are laying in their deathbed- their life has been wasted.
Thats why I\'m just gonna do everything I can in my life. If I am offered something that can further the exploration of living life- Ill take it.
I just think people should stop being so conformed and just live life how they want. Sure conformity is powerful, but so is freewill, and the decision to just do what you want.
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
Samurai, you\'re basically taking a comment and turning into some kind of contradictory question...
"It was bacteria..."
"ARE YOU SURE IT WAS A BACTERIA?"
That doesn\'t even make base to continue a good argument, yes it was bacteria, or some kind of living life form..Why? b/c it was done again and again and the results were the same.
WTF?! For one, saying that scientists created bacteria is like saying scientists experiment on mammals. Bacteria is not a specific organism. Also bacteria is really not an organism that would just appear out of nowhere, which is why I asked. I am 99.999% positive that scientists have NOT created life in a laboratory anywhere.
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Ok, I was wrong it wasn\'t "life forms" but the ingredients to create life forms.
http://scrippsnews.ucsd.edu/article_detail.cfm?article_num=564
http://www.arn.org/boards/ubb-get_topic-f-1-t-000070.html
http://ourworld-top.cs.com/mikegriffith1/abiogenesis.htm
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I am 99.999% positive that scientists have NOT created life in a laboratory anywhere.
Your 100% wrong also.
You havent heard of test-tube babies have you?
Actually your right.
Scientists have never taken non-living things and created living things. Although they have created things that could possibly be living, they havent created "real" lifeforms.
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Everything is a tool. Religion is a tool. Science is a tool. A tool is nothing but an instrument used to serve a purpose. Religion serves a purpose for many people. It gives them hope, it makes money for people. It serves a purpose in our culture. Science does the same thing. It helps people get through life and it makes money for other people. They are both tools.
I just think people should stop being so conformed and just live life how they want. Sure conformity is powerful, but so is freewill, and the decision to just do what you want.
Free will does not exist. We are always going to be bound by our religious backgrounds, due to the fact the goverment is tied in with religion. Free will cannot exist, due to the fact that rules and regulations are put forth to stop us from having free will. Even when you feel you haven\'t conformed, to a great degree, you are still conforming to the system of religion and govermental authority. Why else would you celebrate your holidays? Christmas is a religious holiday, as is Easter. Thanksgiving is more of a govermental holiday. Yet, for all your \'god sucks" rants and "free will" speeches, you will still be eating this Thanksgiving and giving or taking presents comes Christmas.
No sir, "free will" does not exist.
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Free will cannot exist, due to the fact that rules and regulations are put forth to stop us from having free will.
As long as you can still have the capacity to react to a given situation based on your own perception you have free will...
However, I think it\'s exactly what mucks everything up. Is just is but we have such a hard time accepting that.
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We\'re in the Matrix.
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"Free your mind" <----- LOL, waits for attack from mm.