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Playstation/Gaming Discussions => PS3 Discussion => Topic started by: Black Samurai on January 09, 2004, 12:54:48 AM

Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Black Samurai on January 09, 2004, 12:54:48 AM
Some information on the dual shock 3 controller courtesy of computerandvideogames.com:

WORLD EXCLUSIVE: PS3 DUAL SHOCK 3 DETAILS EMERGE!

Wireless gameplay confirmed, plus major addition of trigger for next generation of PlayStation control pad

11:56 The next iteration of Sony\'s Dual Shock joypad for PlayStation 3 will be wireless and come complete with a single trigger under the right hand side of the control pad, we can exclusively reveal.
A highly placed SCEE insider, operating under strict conditions of anonymity, who has been privy to early details of the PS3 controller, told us: "Dual Shock 3 will definitely be wireless and we\'ll also be including a trigger button, probably under the right hand side of the controller. Other than that we\'ve no plans to change the basic formula, which has proved so successful."

This makes perfect sense, since the basic Dual Shock layout - ultimately inspired by Nintendo\'s SNES pad - is the perfect, neutral joypad for developers to work with. Compare this with the GameCube pad, for instance, which has clearly been designed with first party games in mind.

Wireless gameplay will not be a cheap addition for Sony, but an important one which will doubtless be welcomed by gamers with open arms. The addition of the trigger is the obvious choice in offering broader scope for developers without tampering with the existing formula.

A Sony spokesperson was unavailable for comment at the time of writing. We\'ll keep you posted; remember where you heard this first.

(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.psxnation.com%2FForum%2FiB_html%2Fuploads%2Fpost-1-84940-dualshock3.jpg&hash=0c0914a4df7781157d8689fa0598426aad41b745)

Mr. Menshun sez: Definately looks like some Gamecube-esque "digital clicking" going on with L2/R2.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Ryu on January 09, 2004, 01:13:09 AM
That was photoshopped for posting on a forum.  Silly how CV&G posted about it though, hehe
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: ooseven on January 09, 2004, 01:55:16 AM
looks like the X box Controller and the Dual Shock 3 got giggy with each other.

:eek:
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Unicron! on January 09, 2004, 03:57:14 AM
Wireless?Does this mean I ll have to pay for batteries every week? :mad:
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: ##RaCeR## on January 09, 2004, 04:05:16 AM
please please please do not move the d-pad to the centre of the controller.

either ditch the d-pad and have three analogue sticks or leave it the way it is.

I just hope PS3 can use Dual Shock 2 if they change it cause that blows.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Echo on January 09, 2004, 05:44:44 AM
The information is real, not sure about the picture, though I hope the controller will be like that, but the d-pad should be a bit bigger. It looks about the same size as on the Gamecube controller, and while the GC controller is one of the best around, the d-pad sucked.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: QuDDus on January 09, 2004, 06:02:16 AM
Why don\'t they just get rid of the d-pad totally I mean it has been rendered useless anyways.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Unicron! on January 09, 2004, 06:38:07 AM
No it hasnt.And some Fighting games need the D-pad for more accurate moves
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: KillaX on January 09, 2004, 07:05:15 AM
look at the color of the buttons, they arent even the right color (do you think sony would change that????).
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Kurt Angle on January 09, 2004, 09:33:28 AM
It needs to look much different to current designs imo. PS3 is a new era in gaming so the controller should be updated also.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Ryu on January 09, 2004, 09:44:51 AM
Quote
"Dual Shock 3 will definitely be wireless and we\'ll also be including a trigger button, probably under the right hand side of the controller. Other than that we\'ve no plans to change the basic formula, which has proved so successful."


That\'s a high ranking industry insider working under anonymity -- so it\'s a rumor basically.  The picture is fake though because I post on the forum it was first seen.  It\'s an obvious photochop.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Lord Nicon on January 09, 2004, 10:08:10 AM
Quote
Originally posted by QuDDus
Why don\'t they just get rid of the d-pad totally I mean it has been rendered useless anyways.

Hell no. The Dpad must stay. Why get rid of it and add another joystick? And if they moved the left one where the dpad was the sticks wouldnt be level. to have it built like a gc controller would be completely:ghey:

Joysticks suck for console fighters.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Living-In-Clip on January 09, 2004, 10:36:49 AM
Dpad stays or I don\'t buy.  Fighting games require the DPAD, in my opinion.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 09, 2004, 11:12:00 AM
I didn\'t know fighting games were required to buy a console, wow.  I understand some value them highly but uhh....
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: JBean on January 09, 2004, 01:17:04 PM
I never use the d-pad.. even for fighters.  I never bought Virtua Fighter because you could only use the D-pad.

I really hope they do put the stick in the place the D-pad is currently, like the GC & Xbox controllers.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Living-In-Clip on January 09, 2004, 01:49:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Bozco
I didn\'t know fighting games were required to buy a console, wow.  I understand some value them highly but uhh....


Yes, yes it is.

You people are turning your back on the greatest inventions of gaming. The directional pad is still the only true way to play most games and the only thing I use for most games. Unless its required, I don\'t use the analog!
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Jumpman on January 09, 2004, 01:58:28 PM
DS4=The next Nintendo console\'s controller.

Too many buttons, but will it rumble?
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: mm on January 09, 2004, 03:21:29 PM
the better not put the analog\'s on different levels

i really, really hate that about the lame ass xbox controller
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: politiepet on January 10, 2004, 10:11:40 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
Yes, yes it is.

You people are turning your back on the greatest inventions of gaming. The directional pad is still the only true way to play most games and the only thing I use for most games. Unless its required, I don\'t use the analog!

I agree, eliminating the d-pad would be crazy IMO, I also only use the analog thingie if absolutely necessary...
and switching the two would suck too! :(
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 10, 2004, 10:30:08 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
Unless its required, I don\'t use the analog!


I too use it for a lot of the PS2 games, atleast when my PS2 worked.   I just was commenting on the love for fighting games.

Quote
i really, really hate that about the lame ass xbox controller


Odd, thats one thing I enjoy about using the xbox analog, the differing levels and crisper movement with the sticks.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Living-In-Clip on January 10, 2004, 10:52:06 AM
Xbox analog sticks own the  Dual Shock analog sticks.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Lord Nicon on January 10, 2004, 11:50:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
Xbox analog sticks own the  Dual Shock analog sticks.
You and Bozco are strange folk. LIC if you are reffering to the feel or the fact that they dont wear out as easily then i can understand that but if you are talking about the position, like Bozco then you guys suck. Unlevel joysticks and a shitty ass Dpad? Give me a break.

The analog sticks are easier to use but in fighters or things like that they really do suck. the location of the ps2 dpad is convenient and can be used as extra buttons. The s controller is better than a reg XB controller but still. The sticks and those damn black and white buttons are gay. IMO

W/e
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Living-In-Clip on January 10, 2004, 12:14:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Lord Nicon
You and Bozco are strange folk. LIC if you are reffering to the feel or the fact that they dont wear out as easily then i can understand that but if you are talking about the position, like Bozco then you guys suck. Unlevel joysticks and a shitty ass Dpad? Give me a break.

The analog sticks are easier to use but in fighters or things like that they really do suck. the location of the ps2 dpad is convenient and can be used as extra buttons. The s controller is better than a reg XB controller but still. The sticks and those damn black and white buttons are gay. IMO

W/e


The overall feel of the analog sticks are much better, as opposed to the overly large and loose PS2 analogs.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Unicron! on January 10, 2004, 12:30:23 PM
Loose?I find the Dual Shock\'s analog sticks tighter than XBOX\'s.And also the size and the surface of the Dual Shock\'s sticks make sure that your fingers dont slip.
You probably spent more time with XBOX\'s controller than with PS2\'s and thats why you might find the S Controller more comfortable I assume
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Phil on January 10, 2004, 12:40:07 PM
I actually spend a whole hell of a lot more time with my PS2 controller and I have to agree with LIC and Bozco on this one.  I don\'t like the rest of the design, but as far as the analogs go, Xbox wins.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Lord Nicon on January 10, 2004, 12:52:39 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
The overall feel of the analog sticks are much better, as opposed to the overly large and loose PS2 analogs.

Thats exactly what i was reffering too.

I dont think the DS2 has huge Joysticks but they wear out and get slippery sometimes. DS2 still the best overall, but of course ive already said that.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: QuDDus on January 10, 2004, 01:22:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
The overall feel of the analog sticks are much better, as opposed to the overly large and loose PS2 analogs.


Ds2 does not have huge joysticks. And I would rather have huge joysticks than a hugely oversized controller and vastly out of placed buttons.

DS2>>>> x-crap controller
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Living-In-Clip on January 10, 2004, 01:43:14 PM
Quote
Originally posted by QuDDus
Ds2 does not have huge joysticks. And I would rather have huge joysticks than a hugely oversized controller and vastly out of placed buttons.

DS2>>>> x-crap controller


How many time\'s are we going to go over this? The S controller is not overly large. Infact, it is just about right.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 10, 2004, 02:07:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Unicron!
Loose?I find the Dual Shock\'s analog sticks tighter than XBOX\'s.And also the size and the surface of the Dual Shock\'s sticks make sure that your fingers dont slip.
You probably spent more time with XBOX\'s controller than with PS2\'s and thats why you might find the S Controller more comfortable I assume


I\'ve owned a PS2 since Febuary 2002 while just getting my xbox Christmas eve.  Granted I\'ve played about 500 hours worth of Halo before I got my box.  I\'ve still given both many many hours worth of play and I really don\'t understand how you could say the DS2 sticks are more tight.

Quote
DS2 still the best overall


Maybe this is because you\'re the one that has played a system far more than the other.

Quote
Originally posted by QuDDus Ds2 does not have huge joysticks. And I would rather have huge joysticks than a hugely oversized controller and vastly out of placed buttons.

DS2>>>> x-crap controller


Why am I always repeating LIC and vice versa?
S Controller
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Living-In-Clip on January 10, 2004, 02:10:59 PM
Quote
Why am I always repeating LIC and vice versa?
 S Controller


I think is due to the fact he is stubborn and refuses to admit defeat.  It is just like when people complained about the US Saturn controller being uncomfortable due to size and then Sega started packaging in the Japanese controller, which is one of the single greatest controllers, right behind the SNES controller. People still complained though.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Jumpman on January 10, 2004, 03:32:24 PM
I hate the the position of the DS2\'s analogs. They need to hurry up and rip off Cube, give em time and it will come.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Lord Nicon on January 10, 2004, 06:25:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Jumpman
I hate the the position of the DS2\'s analogs. They need to hurry up and rip off Cube, give em time and it will come.
With that little yellow joystick? :ghey:

As for the s controller, i will agree that the sticks are somewhat better i just dont like the postitioning, thus my reason for liking the DS2 in that aspect.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Jumpman on January 10, 2004, 06:28:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Lord Nicon
With that little yellow joystick? :ghey:

 

It looks like a nipple.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Echo on January 10, 2004, 06:45:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
How many time\'s are we going to go over this? The S controller is not overly large. Infact, it is just about right.


A shame the S controller sucks, then. :D
The original, though, is really good. Especially the placement and feel of the analogue sticks, and the right and left triggers. Shame about the black and white buttons, though.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: bart8558 on January 10, 2004, 11:42:31 PM
that looks terrible, i like the dpad where it is, the duel shock 2 is perfect as it is :( why change it?
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 11, 2004, 12:18:54 AM
Quote
Originally posted by bart8558
that looks terrible, i like the dpad where it is, the duel shock 2 is perfect as it is :( why change it?


Would their be complaints if it was perfect?
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Unicron! on January 11, 2004, 03:12:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Bozco
I\'ve owned a PS2 since Febuary 2002 while just getting my xbox Christmas eve.  Granted I\'ve played about 500 hours worth of Halo before I got my box.  I\'ve still given both many many hours worth of play and I really don\'t understand how you could say the DS2 sticks are more tight.


the reason why I find the DS2 tighter is probably becuase of the size of the analog sticks.S-controller\'s analog sticks are smaller and if you want for example to move your character completely right it consists of less finger movements than Dual Shock\'s.Someone who isnt used to the DS controller will find the feel awkward becuase of that.The S-controller\'s consists of less finger movements but this makes the S-controller feel more sensitive and it doesnt help much in games like Timesplitters when you want to have an accurate aim.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Living-In-Clip on January 11, 2004, 07:12:39 AM
If MS would of done something about the black / white buttons and improved the D-PAD , the \'S\' controller would own all.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: QuDDus on January 11, 2004, 07:35:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
If MS would of done something about the black / white buttons and improved the D-PAD , the \'S\' controller would own all.


Well we know who breads your butter don\'t we:o
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Living-In-Clip on January 11, 2004, 08:29:34 AM
Quote
Originally posted by QuDDus
Well we know who breads your butter don\'t we:o


Not really. I use an Apple computer (for the most part) and out of all three consoles, I enjoy the NGC the most. So, no, not really. I just refuse to be a blind fanboy like, a certain someone.
:)
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: SirMystiq on January 11, 2004, 10:15:03 PM
Leave everything as is, they can leave the Trigger button if they want but don\'t **** with the D-pads and stuff
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Phill on January 12, 2004, 12:54:20 AM
lol I could have done that easy. Only I would put the shape buttons where the shoulder buttons are.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: bart8558 on January 12, 2004, 06:04:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by SirMystiq
Leave everything as is, they can leave the Trigger button if they want but don\'t **** with the D-pads and stuff


yes, this is a big mistake they\'re making in my opinion, i hope you can plug in a duel shock 2 to a ps3 so i dont have to get new controllers
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 12, 2004, 06:43:50 PM
You guys have settled for the mediocre control just because you\'ve been using it for so long.  The sticks need fixed if you ever want fine tuned control.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: bart8558 on January 12, 2004, 08:36:05 PM
nahh, i just think sony nailed the perfect controller on the first try with sony playstation... ive been playin game cube for along time, and i cant stand that controller
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 12, 2004, 09:02:48 PM
So you really think everything on the controller is as good as it possibly could be?
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: clips on January 12, 2004, 10:38:52 PM
^^yep everything feels fine in your hand. it\'s not too big or small.that\'s why sony left it almost unchanged when they made the ps2. yo if it ain\'t broke..you know the rest.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 13, 2004, 08:36:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by clips
^^yep everything feels fine in your hand. it\'s not too big or small.that\'s why sony left it almost unchanged when they made the ps2. yo if it ain\'t broke..you know the rest.


I said that same thing when PS2 came out.

**** it, I give up.  If you want to only moderately control accuracy in a FPS then have a ball with your PS2 controller.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: GmanJoe on January 13, 2004, 08:42:10 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Bozco
I said that same thing when PS2 came out.

**** it, I give up.  If you want to only moderately control accuracy in a FPS then have a ball with your PS2 controller.


Well, the controller has to be a generalist. There are third party controllers that specialize in certain games like FPS.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 13, 2004, 09:53:21 AM
What game types benefit from the sticks being lincredbly loose?

Cause I know the sticks having controlled movement helps with aiming in games such as halo.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Unicron! on January 13, 2004, 10:15:49 AM
Have you tried TimeSplitters2 on bith XBOX and PS2?
The Dual Shock2 is way better than the S-controller for that game
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Phill on January 13, 2004, 02:07:36 PM
I find the Xbox controler fits very snug in my hands but is too combersome to opporate. The PS controllers are the best.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 13, 2004, 02:34:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Unicron!
Have you tried TimeSplitters2 on bith XBOX and PS2?
The Dual Shock2 is way better than the S-controller for that game


Nope, didn\'t really waste my time with that game.

I\'m done posting on it all because my opinion won\'t ever match your guys and a lot of people keep commenting on xbox controller, not even signifying between S and Biggen.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Unicron! on January 13, 2004, 11:49:45 PM
Ofcourse you would waste your time with XBOX games that arent available for PS2 and come up with conclusions about the controllers\' feel?
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: IronFist on January 14, 2004, 12:32:29 AM
I really like all three controllers.  They all have their strengths and weaknesses (none of them are perfect!)  Even though none of them are perfect though, I can still enjoy playing games with each of them without the faults of the controller getting in the way.
 
The Xbox has the best Analog sticks, no question about it.  Not necessarily the best positioned sticks, but the overall feel is excellent.  The L/R triggers are slightly too sensitive in many games (I blame the programmers, not the controller).  Like in Soul Caliber or Halo, I\'ll accidentally brush against a trigger, not even pushing it in really, and it will do the move assigned to that trigger.  The black and white buttons are still kind of out of place, (for some reason when playing new Xbox games, I always forget that the B/W buttons exist).  As stated, the d-pad needs improving (PS2 is king in this category) Oh, and the super long Xbox cords rock.  I love the cord break-away feature (Microsoft is teh innovative!!! ?)

The PS2 has 4 shoulder buttons -- something I hope all next gen consoles have.  The analog sticks are a bit slippery though (sometimes when I\'m playing FPSs or something, I\'ll start to feel my finger slipping off.  So I\'ll reach over with my right thumb and hold the L analog in place while I reposition my left thumb back on the stick.)  All of the buttons being analog is great – a feature that should be used in more games.  The face and shoulder buttons should protrude a little more to allow more accurate pressure sensitivity.

Gamecube controller, well, it’s not bad.  It has some problems like the other two controllers, but it is still a great controller.  Nuff said. (this thread is more of an Xbox vs PS2 controller thread anyways.)

For the DS3, I wouldn\'t mind it if they moved the L analog stick to where the d-pad is -- as long as they don\'t put the d-pad in the middle of the controller where the L analog is.  Maybe they could just put it directly below the analog, so both are easily accessible...?  Watch, Sony will get rid of the d-pad altogether to bury 2d gaming once and for all. :p

Oh, and LIC, are you serious about the SNES controller being one of the best?  If so, you have lost your mind. :)
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 14, 2004, 01:04:29 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Unicron!
Ofcourse you would waste your time with XBOX games that arent available for PS2 and come up with conclusions about the controllers\' feel?


I played plenty of FPS on the PS2.  Enough to know the analog sticks aren\'t cutting it.  You\'re really wasting your time if you\'re trying to pin me as pro xbox.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Unicron! on January 14, 2004, 01:40:39 AM
No I am not trying to pin you as pro XBOX.
What FPS hav eyou played on PS2 btw?
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 14, 2004, 10:19:32 AM
TS1
Red Faction1 and 2
MOH Frontline and Rising Sun
007 Agent Under Fire
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Unicron! on January 14, 2004, 12:19:17 PM
TS1:Not uvailable for XBOX
Red Faction:Framerate issues on PS2
Moh Frontline:Framerate issues on PS2
007 Agent Under Fire:Frame Rate issues on PS2.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 14, 2004, 02:41:40 PM
I guess I have to make my font size bigger for you to get it.
The sticks for PS2 suck.

I just know that when I\'m playing a FPS I like a keyboard or the S.  And the black and white buttons aren\'t hard to use on it, as long as you aren\'t a chimp.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: GmanJoe on January 14, 2004, 02:43:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Bozco
*Applauds*

I guess I have to make my font size bigger for you to get it.
The sticks for PS2 suck.
I just know that when I\'m playing a FPS I like a keyboard or the S.


But I like the stick for GT3. :)
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 14, 2004, 02:48:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by GmanJoe
But I like the stick for GT3. :)


Thats before I edited my post but still pretty much the same thing said.  I use the D-pad for GT3. :)
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: GmanJoe on January 14, 2004, 02:54:47 PM
Then you are superhuman. Coz I hate the d-pad. :)
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 14, 2004, 02:57:03 PM
But the D-Pad is perfect on the DS2!!1111 ;)
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: GmanJoe on January 14, 2004, 02:59:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Bozco
But the D-Pad is perfect on the DS2!!1111 ;)


But I\'m just so hooked on the vibrating PS2 stick. I don\'t know why. :p
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Phil on January 14, 2004, 03:11:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Unicron!
TS1:Not uvailable for XBOX
Red Faction:Framerate issues on PS2
Moh Frontline:Framerate issues on PS2
007 Agent Under Fire:Frame Rate issues on PS2.


I just wanted to call to people\'s attention that you just pointed out flaws for almost every FPS that\'s considered good on the PS2 outside of TS2.  I\'m glad that you are able to discredit good games to try, keyword TRY to make a point.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Phill on January 14, 2004, 03:29:32 PM
a beer holder attached to the controller would be great. you could drink and play at the same time :)
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Unicron! on January 14, 2004, 04:52:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Bozco
I guess I have to make my font size bigger for you to get it.
The sticks for PS2 suck.

I just know that when I\'m playing a FPS I like a keyboard or the S.  And the black and white buttons aren\'t hard to use on it, as long as you aren\'t a chimp.



They do not.You are just more used to the S-controller.As for the Keyboard hands down its better than any controller for FPS


Quote
Originally posted by Phil
I just wanted to call to people\'s attention that you just pointed out flaws for almost every FPS that\'s considered good on the PS2 outside of TS2.  I\'m glad that you are able to discredit good games to try, keyword TRY to make a point.



find me a perfect game.

Anyways you dint get my point.The controls dont feel right on games with frame rate issues.Imagine Time Splitters 2 running at an unsteady 30fps.
TimeSplitters1 isnt available on XBOX so you cant judge which console\'s controller feels better.
As for Red Faction these games have frame rate issues and I explained above what I ment with framerate issues.
Abd lasly MOH and 007 are running at smoother framerates on XBOX so the feel of the games\' controls is better irregardless which controller is better.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Phil on January 14, 2004, 05:04:13 PM
Are you honestly saying that those games never run smooth???  Ok I got the point that sometimes they have framerate issues and that it can hamper the feel of the game, but I can still tell how the game feels with the analog sticks for the 95% of the game that isn\'t choppy.  

Or how about this, go grab an xbox S controller and grab a DS2 and see which analog stick feels better.  Don\'t put in a game just put them in your hand.  If you can\'t feel the difference then I don\'t know what to tell you.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: fastson on January 14, 2004, 05:58:26 PM
Im glad they wont ruin the perfect controller. :)

And please, do damn GC-like triggers.. Cant stand them.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 14, 2004, 09:16:09 PM
I\'ve used the DS2 just as much as the Xbox S.  As phil said, you can tell how each controller is just with holding it in your hand, not even playing a game.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Unicron! on January 15, 2004, 03:53:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Phil
Are you honestly saying that those games never run smooth???  Ok I got the point that sometimes they have framerate issues and that it can hamper the feel of the game, but I can still tell how the game feels with the analog sticks for the 95% of the game that isn\'t choppy.  

Or how about this, go grab an xbox S controller and grab a DS2 and see which analog stick feels better.  Don\'t put in a game just put them in your hand.  If you can\'t feel the difference then I don\'t know what to tell you.


I ve holded both controllers and playied FPS with both controllers.And certainly Timesplitters 2 which is almost 100% identical on both platforms.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 15, 2004, 05:29:10 AM
Well then like I said earlier I bet he doen\'t know what to tell you.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Green Meanie on January 15, 2004, 05:46:15 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Unicron!
I ve holded both controllers and playied FPS with both controllers.And certainly Timesplitters 2 which is almost 100% identical on both platforms.


The only difference I noticed was that it\'s more satisfying pulling the trigger on the s-pad as it feels closer to a proper trigger.

I miss L1 and L2 though, they\'re my change weapon buttons on most FPS games.

Oh and LIC, I agree about the SNES pad, it kicks arse and will go down in gaming history. The Megadrive pad on the other hand was a complete dog.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: JP on January 15, 2004, 08:09:57 AM
DS2 is the best. The S Controller is very good too. The original Xbox controller was the worst controller I\'ve ever held in my life.

Don\'t like the Nintendo ones much...
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Green Meanie on January 15, 2004, 08:42:31 AM
The problem for me with the GC pad is that the two parts that rest in your hands feel like the DS2 but turned on their sides, it almost feels like it\'s cutting in.

Also the shoulder buttons suck and there is virtually no grip on top of the mushrooms.

I\'m shocked at Nintendo really, they usually the kings of the chunky satisfying peripheral.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 15, 2004, 09:26:27 AM
Quote
Originally posted by JP
The original Xbox controller was the worst controller I\'ve ever held in my life.
 


I used to love the Biggen, I\'d use it over the S-controller when playing all the time.  Then once I got my Xbox with the S I changed my opinion.  The indention on the S analog sticks just makes them easier to use.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Echo on January 15, 2004, 09:40:26 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Green Meanie

I\'m shocked at Nintendo really, they usually the kings of the chunky satisfying peripheral.


They still are, but for some reason you can\'t see it.

Quote
Originally posted by Bozco

The indention on the S analog sticks just makes them easier to use.


I think the indentation makes them harder to grip. And to me it feels as if they\'re slippier. And the controller is also too small. And the start and back buttons are in a horrible place, as well as the black and white buttons.

Just sharing my thoughts.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Lord Nicon on January 15, 2004, 09:50:04 AM
The comfort of the GC for me its really good. Its the functionality that kills it for me. Certain games are just odd to play on that controller. Not only that but when you have to use the yeallow view stick on a regular basis its annoying. You talk about the ps2 sticks being bad. The GC one is 10x worse. IMO
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 15, 2004, 09:50:31 AM
When your thumbs rest in the indention I don\'t see how it makes them slip for you but ok.  

First too big now too small, I don\'t know, I\'m comfortable with it.  

The only time I have need to hit the start button is when pausing so taking my finger off the stick isn\'t a big deal, and the back button I use to gloat about scores and the S keeps me from showing everyone how superior I am compared to them in Halo. :)
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Unicron! on January 15, 2004, 10:49:10 AM
It seems its a matter of getting used to.We ve got people that prefer the DS2 amd people that prefer the S-controller.I personally prefer the DS2.the placement of the D-pad and the analog sticks are certaintly more comfortable for me.Especially for fighting games.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: dawid22 on January 15, 2004, 11:53:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Lord Nicon
The comfort of the GC for me its really good. Its the functionality that kills it for me. Certain games are just odd to play on that controller. Not only that but when you have to use the yeallow view stick on a regular basis its annoying. You talk about the ps2 sticks being bad. The GC one is 10x worse. IMO


I seem to agree, the GC is excellent for certain games, but for others it feels very weird.  When playing racing games I prefer the DS2.  The GC controller just feels weird with racing games.  However, I think the GC controller is the best action adventure, platform controller around.  :)

The PS2 and GC controllers both have their pros and cons.  It is up to each individual to buy the game that works best on the system (and controller).  As for Xbox... I am not interested in buying one after playing with the crappy controls.  The buttons to the right are so small and pathetic, that it is just not worth it.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: QuDDus on January 16, 2004, 08:53:57 AM
Quote
Originally posted by dawid22
I seem to agree, the GC is excellent for certain games, but for others it feels very weird.  When playing racing games I prefer the DS2.  The GC controller just feels weird with racing games.  However, I think the GC controller is the best action adventure, platform controller around.  :)

The PS2 and GC controllers both have their pros and cons.  It is up to each individual to buy the game that works best on the system (and controller).  As for Xbox... I am not interested in buying one after playing with the crappy controls.  The buttons to the right are so small and pathetic, that it is just not worth it.


My roommate up in school had a GC and when I would play mario, sonic, SMBM, zelda and simular type games the controller feels fines. But when playing madden on GC I don\'t like it. And playing fighters on GC I don\'t like it. And playin racers on GC oh no just can\'t do it.

I mean the best controller out for any system rite now is the DC2. You honestly can\'t say that it is not. The xbox controller is way to over sensative that is one thing I hate about it. You can walk bye the controller and it will cause movement in a game.  Every body knows about the unproper placed black and wht buttons. And they need to level out the analogs. I don\'t like the feel of the buttons either.

Honestly if you perfection freaks want 110% accuracy on fps stick too your keyboard and mouse. And one more thing the D-pad on S-controller is just horrible.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: politiepet on January 16, 2004, 09:18:27 AM
Quote
Originally posted by dawid22
I seem to agree, the GC is excellent for certain games, but for others it feels very weird.  When playing racing games I prefer the DS2.  The GC controller just feels weird with racing games.  However, I think the GC controller is the best action adventure, platform controller around.  :)

The PS2 and GC controllers both have their pros and cons.  It is up to each individual to buy the game that works best on the system (and controller).  As for Xbox... I am not interested in buying one after playing with the crappy controls.  The buttons to the right are so small and pathetic, that it is just not worth it.


thank god the gamecube has no decent racing games! :rolleyes:
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Living-In-Clip on January 16, 2004, 10:12:39 AM
Quote
I mean the best controller out for any system rite now is the DC2. You honestly can\'t say that it is not. The xbox controller is way to over sensative that is one thing I hate about it. You can walk bye the controller and it will cause movement in a game.  Every body knows about the unproper placed black and wht buttons. And they need to level out the analogs. I don\'t like the feel of the buttons either.
 


Hi, Spudz...err..Qudd..Could you be any dumber?
:)
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 16, 2004, 10:17:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by dawid22
 As for Xbox... I am not interested in buying one after playing with the crappy controls.  The buttons to the right are so small and pathetic, that it is just not worth it.


Maybe LIC, he could be this guy.  Seeing as how the buttons on the controller are so small and pathetic. :rolleyes:  Not liking the xbox can happen but claiming it\'s not worth it cause of the controller is just funny.  :laughing: I laugh at you.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Unicron! on January 16, 2004, 10:28:12 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
Hi, Spudz...err..Qudd..Could you be any dumber?
:)


Wow what a nice epicheirema :rolleyes:
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: QuDDus on January 16, 2004, 10:39:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
Hi, Spudz...err..Qudd..Could you be any dumber?
:)


which is one of the single greatest controllers, right behind the SNES controller

See how smart that sounds:o
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Unicron! on January 16, 2004, 11:04:59 AM
Well the SNES controller is FLAT and your hands felt tired after hours of playing and if that feels comfortable in his hands then I wonder if the first PSX ontroller without the analog sticks feels comfortable in his hands
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Paul on January 18, 2004, 04:54:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Unicron!
TS1:Not uvailable for XBOX
Red Faction:Framerate issues on PS2
Moh Frontline:Framerate issues on PS2
007 Agent Under Fire:Frame Rate issues on PS2.


basically it\'s not the PS2 controllers that sucks. The PS2 controller rocks, really the best all purpose controllers that fits most games.

it\'s just that the PS2 sucks.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Living-In-Clip on January 18, 2004, 05:00:46 PM
You guy\'s are on crack.
The SNES controller set the bar for controllers. The PS controller was simply okay and the dual shock was a step up, but not all that.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Jumpman on January 18, 2004, 06:23:47 PM
Quote
The SNES controller set the bar for controllers.

This is true. Without the SNES controller, each controller from this generation of consoles would look drastically different.

For every SNES game that ever existed the controller was absolutely perfect for each one too, add this into the equation.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Unicron! on January 19, 2004, 04:45:34 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Jumpman
This is true. Without the SNES controller, each controller from this generation of consoles would look drastically different.

For every SNES game that ever existed the controller was absolutely perfect for each one too, add this into the equation.


"SNES is the best controller" is different than "Without the SNES controller, each controller from this generation of consoles would look drastically different. "
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: dawid22 on January 19, 2004, 05:40:41 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Bozco
Maybe LIC, he could be this guy.  Seeing as how the buttons on the controller are so small and pathetic. :rolleyes:  Not liking the xbox can happen but claiming it\'s not worth it cause of the controller is just funny.  :laughing: I laugh at you.



My dearest friend, i\'m sorry to say but have you forgotten the whole incident where Microsoft specially had to make smaller controllers for the Japanese market? (Which most people in the world prefer:hat: )

The XBOX controller is one of the downfalls of that console, besides the XBOX being big enough to park your car in.  Why did Sony not change the look and feel of the PS2 controller? Because people could play their games without any petty problems.  NGC, well they are always trying something new and seem to get it just right for their own in-house games, don\'t you think that this could be part of the problem why there aren\'t that much 3rd party support for the NGC? (I know there are many other reasons but this contributes)

Why would this thread be started if a controller did not matter?  Do you like playing with 3rd party controllers compared to the original controller developed for the console?  They normally suck.  A controller is the only thing that physically links you with the game.

Anyway, if you enjoy your XBOX controller.... then good for you:D , I don\'t and never will, if the XBOX 2 has a better controller the chances are that I will most probably buy one as well.  I don\'t look at the console, I look at the games and if the controller is functional enough with the games that you play.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Jumpman on January 19, 2004, 02:15:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Unicron!
"SNES is the best controller" is different than "Without the SNES controller, each controller from this generation of consoles would look drastically different. "

Where did I say it wasn\'t...thanks for pointing out the obvious.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Unicron! on January 19, 2004, 04:03:00 PM
It wasnt exactly directed to you.It was directed to the few people that seem to say that the SNES controller is still the best
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Unicron! on January 19, 2004, 04:06:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Paul
basically it\'s not the PS2 controllers that sucks. The PS2 controller rocks, really the best all purpose controllers that fits most games.

it\'s just that the PS2 sucks.


I didnt see this earlier.No.The developers suck
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: fastson on January 19, 2004, 04:20:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Unicron!
I didnt see this earlier.No.The developers suck


Rectum rectus! :D
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: cervantes on January 28, 2004, 04:15:26 PM
Dual Shock 3?

Wow, SONY are brilliant at originality...I can\'t think of many PS2 games that don\'t have at least 3 in the series, and now it\'s their peripherials too!

SONY really do suck when it comes to consoles.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Phil on January 28, 2004, 04:27:22 PM
Ummm please don\'t post if you don\'t have anything productive to say ok?
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 28, 2004, 07:09:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by dawid22
My dearest friend, i\'m sorry to say but have you forgotten the whole incident where Microsoft specially had to make smaller controllers for the Japanese market? (Which most people in the world prefer:hat: )

The XBOX controller is one of the downfalls of that console, besides the XBOX being big enough to park your car in.  Why did Sony not change the look and feel of the PS2 controller? Because people could play their games without any petty problems.


Oh, I understand where you are coming from now.  You\'re one of those people that just don\'t like the xbox, debating that its size was a factor in its quality.  And I still like the original xbox controller, and I\'m glad that they would take the time to make another controller to suit other people instead of being like Sony and releasing the same thing without trying to improve any.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: politiepet on January 29, 2004, 02:43:50 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Bozco
Oh, I understand where you are coming from now.  You\'re one of those people that just don\'t like the xbox, debating that it\'s size was a factor in its quality.  And I still like the original xbox controller, and I\'m glad that they would take the time to make another controller to suit other people instead of being like Sony and releasing the same thing without trying to improve any.


wheterher you like it or not, a vast majority is more than happy with it. Changing it\'s design would be a stupid thing to do...
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 29, 2004, 04:48:17 AM
So sales matters more than quality......

As long as people are happy enough to buy it who cares how well it works.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: politiepet on January 29, 2004, 06:18:11 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Bozco
So sales matters more than quality......

As long as people are happy enough to buy it who cares how well it works.


who said sales matter more? not me!
what I said was, that a lot of people like the DS2 design a lot, or to use your words: think it works well, so it would be a stupid thing to change it (a lot)
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 29, 2004, 08:56:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by politiepet
who said sales matter more? not me!
what I said was, that a lot of people like the DS2 design a lot, or to use your words: think it works well, so it would be a stupid thing to change it (a lot)


Exactly, it works well.  Not perfect, but well.  Just good enough so that they can just repackage it and get more sales.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Green Meanie on January 30, 2004, 01:37:31 AM
The DS2 is the best pad ever, my reasoning being this, when re-configuring controls to my liking I have NEVER found myself wanting an extra button etc, any type of game played at any pace and the DS2 is easy to use.

This is a good place for a product to be, a happy place.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: dawid22 on January 30, 2004, 01:48:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Bozco
Oh, I understand where you are coming from now.  You\'re one of those people that just don\'t like the xbox, debating that its size was a factor in its quality.  And I still like the original xbox controller, and I\'m glad that they would take the time to make another controller to suit other people instead of being like Sony and releasing the same thing without trying to improve any.


You obviously skipped the last paragraph:o , let me reinstate:"If the Xbox had a better design at fitted my needs I would most probably buy it.  I have a GC and PS2 (and another stack of PC games as well) and am definitly not a fan boy... I often wished that I could play Gothem Racing 2, but the dam controller just don\'t do it for me.  As I said earlier, if you are happy with your Xbox, then be happy.  :bounce:

BTW, you are the first person that I have ever heard of that has such a huge problem with DS2 controller:confused:
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: JP on January 30, 2004, 02:00:36 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Bozco
Exactly, it works well.  Not perfect, but well.  Just good enough so that they can just repackage it and get more sales.


Most stupid thing I\'ve heard in a long time.

That\'s your own opinion, don\'t try and make it a fact. To a LOT of people it is just perfect and to some it isn\'t. Get over it already.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Green Meanie on January 30, 2004, 02:03:05 AM
Here\'s a little test.

1) Relax all the muscles in your hands and fingers, your fingers should curl slghtly naturally.

2) Keeping your hands and fingers relaxed join the tips of your middle fingers together, palms up.

3) Take a DS2 pad and lower it into both hands the same way you\'d hold it if playing (you may need an extra person)

For me, when I do this, the pad fits perfectly into my hands. They naturally curve into the correct shape to hold a DS2, I don\'t know whether they planned it like that but my hands don\'t even have to try to maintain position, it\'s effortless. Makes GT3 for 10 hours at a time totally painless.


You may call what\'s just been typed total boll*cks, just try it.

:)
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: dawid22 on January 30, 2004, 04:07:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Green Meanie
Here\'s a little test.

1) Relax all the muscles in your hands and fingers, your fingers should curl slghtly naturally.

2) Keeping your hands and fingers relaxed join the tips of your middle fingers together, palms up.

3) Take a DS2 pad and lower it into both hands the same way you\'d hold it if playing (you may need an extra person)

For me, when I do this, the pad fits perfectly into my hands. They naturally curve into the correct shape to hold a DS2, I don\'t know whether they planned it like that but my hands don\'t even have to try to maintain position, it\'s effortless. Makes GT3 for 10 hours at a time totally painless.


You may call what\'s just been typed total boll*cks, just try it.

:)


I think he needs the advice... badly!!
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Echo on January 30, 2004, 06:19:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Green Meanie
Here\'s a little test.

1) Relax all the muscles in your hands and fingers, your fingers should curl slghtly naturally.

2) Keeping your hands and fingers relaxed join the tips of your middle fingers together, palms up.

3) Take a DS2 pad and lower it into both hands the same way you\'d hold it if playing (you may need an extra person)

For me, when I do this, the pad fits perfectly into my hands. They naturally curve into the correct shape to hold a DS2, I don\'t know whether they planned it like that but my hands don\'t even have to try to maintain position, it\'s effortless. Makes GT3 for 10 hours at a time totally painless.


You may call what\'s just been typed total boll*cks, just try it.

:)


It\'s the same with all 3 controllers.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Green Meanie on January 30, 2004, 06:30:43 AM
Dammit!!

:laughing:


The DS2 is the only one I don\'t have to manually bend my fingers for it to fit perfectly.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on January 30, 2004, 10:36:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Green Meanie
The DS2 is the best pad ever, my reasoning being this, when re-configuring controls to my liking I have NEVER found myself wanting an extra button etc, any type of game played at any pace and the DS2 is easy to use.

This is a good place for a product to be, a happy place.


The issue never was with an amount of buttons, its been with the terrible sticks.  But if you want to see my opinion on that read the last 5 pages.

Quote
Originally posted by dawid22
You obviously skipped the last paragraph:o , let me reinstate:"If the Xbox had a better design at fitted my needs I would most probably buy it.  I have a GC and PS2 (and another stack of PC games as well) and am definitly not a fan boy... I often wished that I could play Gothem Racing 2, but the dam controller just don\'t do it for me.  As I said earlier, if you are happy with your Xbox, then be happy.  :bounce:

BTW, you are the first person that I have ever heard of that has such a huge problem with DS2 controller:confused:


:o  Sadly, in your attempt to be witty, you started just assuming things.  Never did I call you a fanboy.  As for your dislike of the S-controller, don\'t know what to tell you.  I\'ll agree to disagree on the opinions of each controller.

Quote
Originally posted by JP
Most stupid thing I\'ve heard in a long time.

That\'s your own opinion, don\'t try and make it a fact. To a LOT of people it is just perfect and to some it isn\'t. Get over it already.


Never did I claim anything as fact.  Of course its my opinion, thats what we\'ve been discussing this whole time.  And what does a lot people have to do with what I have to say here.  It doesn\'t discredit my opinion any.  Save that most stupid bs for someone else.

Quote
Originally posted by dawid22
I think he needs the advice... badly!!


Thats an exercize, not advice.  You guys act as if I haven\'t held each controller for hours on end.  I\'m not you, dawid, I based my opinion off of considerable amounts of gaming time.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: dawid22 on February 01, 2004, 10:47:33 PM
Bozco, how many hours a week do you play games?  Did you play Atari games in their days? 8 bit for that matter? (Not to even mention al the money spent on arcade classics)  I played many hours of games as well!... and still do.   However I did tell you this twice already, that if you like the controller then so be it, some of us don\'t (mabe the Xbox controller fits your hands better than ours, who knows)

Everyone has there own opinion, at I respect yours, it is just really weird that you can\'t respect us for liking our prefered controller? (And for the other guys giving you hell, this is a PS2 forum, so you should expect that kind of thing... they\'re just pulling your leg anyway, relax.)
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Bozco on February 02, 2004, 06:36:29 AM
I don\'t play games nearly as much as I used to but I\'d say I still play about 10-15 hours on an average week.  Where I play games a lot we have an Atari 2600, Nintendo, Genesis, Super Nintendo, PSOne, GC, and Xbox.  Also I\'ve owned the PS2 since 3 months after release and Xbox since Christmas.  

And look how long I\'ve been casually posting here.  I definently know what to expect and I\'m not a stranger to it.  I\'ve been called a PS2 fanboy here, Xbox fanboy, not quite yet on being a GC fanboy.
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: Green Meanie on February 02, 2004, 06:58:59 AM
Bloody Gamecube fanboy, your lot get everywhere moaning about how games aren\'t as fun/innocent as in the past.

There\'s far too many of your kind and you\'re becoming intolerable.






Happy? ;)
Title: Dual Shock THREE
Post by: dawid22 on February 02, 2004, 10:54:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Bozco
I don\'t play games nearly as much as I used to but I\'d say I still play about 10-15 hours on an average week.  Where I play games a lot we have an Atari 2600, Nintendo, Genesis, Super Nintendo, PSOne, GC, and Xbox.  Also I\'ve owned the PS2 since 3 months after release and Xbox since Christmas.  

And look how long I\'ve been casually posting here.  I definently know what to expect and I\'m not a stranger to it.  I\'ve been called a PS2 fanboy here, Xbox fanboy, not quite yet on being a GC fanboy.


It\'s good to see that you have some good gaming behind you.  I currently play about the same amount of time as you do (Used to play anything from 30 - 40 hours a week about 3-4 years ago when life was still easy going living at home without any worries)  Now I am engaged and living with my future wife, so time becomes a problem.

 I own everything you have except the Xbox (as I am sure you know by now).  I don\'t think you\'re a fan boy, you\'re just sticking up for what you believe in which is great, that is what debating is all about at then end. :)