PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Capcom on March 10, 2004, 05:37:15 PM
-
I picked up Metal Gear Solid twin snakes for the gamecube tonight. So far I say screw Ninja Gaiden. MGS1 was one of the best games ever, and with the mgs2 engine it is pure heaven for me. I have noticed some slight music changes, and all is well.
-
I want this game, but after mixed reactions to MGS2 and the fact that I have a pile of games to complete and Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow pre-ordered.. I\'m going to have to put off buying MGS:TS for a while.
I\'ll get to it eventually. I never played through MGS1 so it\'ll be a new experience for me.
-
Blade MGS2 was a crappy game. MGS was and is the game. Go rent it, and I almost bet you will buy it. It does not have splinter cell graphics, but it is still the king in gameplay. IMHO
EDIT: Blade or anyone else. Do you know if the new splinter cell is getting ready of the silly no kill rule? That was my biggest complaint with that game.
-
A. IMO, the Splinter Cell gameplay > MGS2 gameplay.. somewhat. There are some facets of stealth gameplay that are better in MGS, but not many.
B. That rule is only in effect for a portion of the missions, if I remember correctly. I killed lots of guys.
-
I played it until the last level. The missions where I could kill were great. Those that I could not were pure hell to me. If they drop the no kill then I will be a happy camper.
Though MGS was a classic. Hopefully someone will chime in on it. Said it before will say it again. Give it a rent. At the very least.
-
Splinter Cell and MGS are both great games and completed all three so far (MGS1 & 2, SC1) Blade, you will find that MGS1 has many different features that MGS2 never had, like using a rope to sail down a building and shooting from the back of a Jeep. The atmosphere is totally different to MGS2 (IMO I think they screwed it up with the whole Raiden thing.)
Rent it, you\'ll most probably be confused how such a great game could have such a disappointing sequel.;)
-
You bum. You still need to finish Ninja Gaiden.
I doubt I pick this up, but I will pick up Maximo or Nightshade this week.
-
Heh, LiC just summed part of my reasoning up.. Ninja Gaiden! I\'m still working on it, and I don\'t want to have to deal with a trifecta when Splinter Cell hits the street.
I did almost buy MGS:TS today, though. I probably will when I go to the store. Only $40..
-
im almost thinking of buying a game cube just to play mgs1 with better graphics, i loved the oe on ps1.....
-
I\'d never imagine a near six year old game could be a system seller.
-
Well, I\'m a regular by now at the IGN Metal Gear boards.....ermm, the reactions to Twin Snakes are somewhat mixed. I too, belong to the group of gamers who loved mgs1, then got dissappointed by MGS2 (but learned to appreciate it somewhat more with time) but then got totally addicted to Splinter Cell ( Xbox version that is - sorry MM.. imho the PC version is less...). I currently own PS2, Xbox and PC and I already pre-ordered SC Pandora Tomorrow for Xbox. I still need to pick up PGR2 and a 2nd copy of the Ico European limited edition.... so the chances of me getting a NGC plus TTS on the 25th are rather slim. (there\'s no money problem though ;)
The biggest TTS complaints I saw on the IGN boards were :
- control is digital ; walk & run.... no analog inbetween speeds.
- some textures litterally got carried over from the PSone version with only mipmap filtering applied ; so they look N64 blurry.
- some ppl find the new cutscene direction way over the top.
From what I\'ve seen... I like it, though I can understand their point of view.
-
Purely digital? The original game didn\'t even have a walk feature... It was run or crawl...
-
Well, it\'s like MGS2 ; the character either walks or runs. It\'s not like in Splinter Cell where you vary your speed gradually. Also, I now noticed this huge thread at the IGN boards about framerate inconsistency in TTS... ugh...
-
The frame rate I notice more often in cutscenes. Besides there was some slowdown in the psone version.
-
FPS view has the most slowdown in the game. I notice it happens quite frequently, more moreso then in any scenes from MGS2 on the PS2 if that\'s any comparison. In fact, the only slowdown in MGS2 on the PS2 was when you switched to FPS view while fighting multiple guards on the top-most level during the tanker mission. Otherwise, it was damn consistant all the way through and still managed to look especially good.
As for this version, well, I\'m dissapointed really. I really don\'t like the Cube controller for this game. I just don\'t think it was meant for it and using the Z-button is so daunting whether it\'s a constant on - off thing or holding it. It just seems really out of place. Not to mention of course that the new custscenes, especially in the beginning, are really drawn out. Even MGS2 cutscenes seemed a lot faster and to the point by comparison -- and I don\'t mean the Codec conversations either.
Don\'t get me wrong, I\'ll give it a chance and play with it a great deal right through to the end, but for a remake of this magnitude, I think they should have let it stay in-house at Konami and let the team redo it entirely for the PS2 after MGS3 was complete. Just my opinion of course.
-
I got it.
The slowdown is kind of vexxing. I mean, considering that MGS2 has similar graphics and less slowdown on the PS2..
This same issue occurred in Substance for the Xbox.. although Silicon Knights wasn\'t involved in that.
-
Strange. I do not notice the slowdown to any degree that hurts the experience.
-
I played MGS on the PSX all the way through.
Have no desire to play that outdated pos ever again.
-
Grow up Jumpman.
-
I don\'t know, I have to agree with him. :D
Then again, I just hate having to sneak and do anything, unless its \'Mark of Kri\'.
-
Deciding whether I should make LIC play MGS one time through.
-
Don\'t bother. He\'ll just dump another pound of hate on you and honestly, who needs that much cynicism?
-
LIC you tried MGS and didnt like it becuase you dont like the sneaking feature in MGS\'s gameplay??
-
Unicron!, don\'t bother. You\'d have an easier time completing the mission in FFTA where you have to coax this lardy fat guy out of bed with a piece of beef jerky.
-
I\'m sorry, I bought the original MGS when it first came out and even back then, I did not see the appeal of sneaking around and watching cutscenes. Hell, I ended up giving my copy to Capcom, well, we traded. I played MGS2 also - didn\'t care for it and I really doubt MGS:TT brings anything to the table that would change my mind.
Sneaking around, just does nothing for me .
-
Thats a shame
-
Yeah having good taste is a damn shame.
WHY CAN\'T YOU LIKE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH GAMES LIKE EVERYONE ELSE BITCH???
Ps-Zelda:OoT>MGS!!111
flame on
-
I am still trying to figure out how liking MGS means bad taste in games
Can you explain that to me?
Probably KILLING MINDLESSLY and pretending to be a KILLER is good taste
-
Originally posted by Unicron!
I am still trying to figure out how liking MGS means bad taste in games
Can you explain that to me?
I\'m trying to figure out why you think that since I said LIC has good taste in games it automatically means that I think anyone who likes MGS has bad taste in games? Took a little stumble down the stairs when you was young?
:hat:
MGS was a decent stealther game with a great storyline. If you want then MGS just isn\'t for you. It\'s clumsy, non analog, shooting was just brutal(RE style brutal), movement problems, etc.
-
Originally posted by Jumpman
I\'m trying to figure out why you think that since I said LIC has good taste in games it automatically means that I think anyone who likes MGS has bad taste in games? Took a little stumble down the stairs when you was young?
Thats because I said its a shame he didnt give MGS enough time or disliked it for its stealthy gameplay and you jumped out of nowhere and concluded to something vague, meaningless, and indefinite from what I said.Was it you that stumbled down the stairs when you were a kid??
What was the point of your statement?
What?Did I say its a shame he has a good taste in games?
Was LIC refering generallyabout his taste in games?Or his opinion about MGS?
You give the impression taht you tried to twist the meaning of my words come to think of it now
Unicron!:Its shame
Jumpman:Yeah having good taste is a damn shame.
*Unicron! scratches his head*
-
Careful Unicorn, all that thinking is starting to hurt your brain.
-
Admittedly MGS depends alot on it\'s story driven mechanic. So, if you do not like such \'serious\' storylines or just not in videogames in general ; then you\'re bound to have a problem with any MGS game, true. *edit : i c in Jumpman\'s post he liked the storyline.
We also know that Hideo Kojima is a formidable, yet somewhat
\'limited\' game designer (quality is NOT an issue with this established game designer). That\'s why MGS2\'s gameplay was rather an evolution of MGS1 gameplay than a revolution.
MGS2 still stands as a, though slightly flawed, Masterpiece.
TTS\'s level design still roots in it\'s PSone original and it shows... it hurts it a bit. * edit : Jumpman\'s point about lack of analog control ; yes, a bit of a shame it\'s still either WALK or RUN (no gradual speeding up/down) in TTS. On the other hand ; shooting is never meant to be easy in stealth games. It\'s purely the designers\' incentive for the player to play stealthy without going gunho.
Also, gameplay standards have risen alot since 2001\'s MGS2. Not just by Splinter Cell, but in other genres outside stealth games as well.
Imo, MGS3 will be really decisive for continuation or decline of the Metal Gear franchise. By E3, MGS3 will be so far into development that we will probably be able to tell if Mr. Kojima has been able to truly innovate and keep up with todays standards in gaming,....or
not....
-
It\'s true. Metal Gear Solid 2 is basically MGS1 with extra play control. Now you can hang off ledges, and see in first-person mode.. wow. Thanks to Splinter Cell, which.. gameplay-wise.. is the next step.. Kojima and crew are going to have to ramp it up in MGS3. I know the forest setting will change things a bit, so it should be okay.
-
Originally posted by Jumpman
Careful Unicorn, all that thinking is starting to hurt your brain.
No that didnt hurt.My post hurts yours though
-
Originally posted by Blade
It\'s true. Metal Gear Solid 2 is basically MGS1 with extra play control. Now you can hang off ledges, and see in first-person mode.. wow. Thanks to Splinter Cell, which.. gameplay-wise.. is the next step.. Kojima and crew are going to have to ramp it up in MGS3. I know the forest setting will change things a bit, so it should be okay.
You forget some details that added to the gameplay.
Like the pressure of the trigger.It gives a sense of realism.Thats how a real gun feels and you really must learn to control the trigger.
There are also a few other touches that werent necessqary yet add to the games feel.Like Snake\'s ability to become stronger and hold on ledges longer.Or some things that were unexpected.
Other touches were the AI.Splinter Cell had the usual AI on enemies seen in most games.In MGS2 the artificial intelligence was adding to the gameplay.Like ways of tricking the enemy.
Or scaring the enemy.Or even making fun of them.
MGS\'s gameplay was based a lot on interactivity and the chance to experiment with the guns, enemies AI and backround.And the story and gameplay interact with each other.Splinter Cell based the gameplay on the characters abilities(moves) which werent found in MGS2.
I believe MGS2 was more innovative than Splinter Cell in other aspects.
And lets face it.Splinter Cell\'s gameplay is MGS with more moves and a PC like interface.
So I believe what Hideo Kojima achieved with MGS2 is more special than what was achieved with Splinter Cell since Splinter Cell took the similar approach of innovation found in most efforts.
-
^Uhmm, sorry but i disagree there. MGS2\'s enemy AI works is based on one solid protocol ; squad based tactics with \'traces\' as
their primary search and destroy perimeter.
SC\'s AI is indeed very different, but by no means \'less\'. Lemme try to sum up some key differences ;
* Visual and Audio cue by player actions : MGS2 AI is rather insensitive to that opposed to SC AI\'s noticable reactions to you, the player. MGS2 AI is in this respect only triggered by clearly assigned game SIGNS like \'walking over a metal floor\', the deliberate \'knock on the wall\' or visually speaking, the \'wet footprints\'. SC comes off as more natural here, becuz every action Sam does could trigger suspicion. The whole nature of Splinter Cell IS to sneak up to the guards and take them out. Their AI is perfectly suited in that respect becuz they react pretty unpredictable and with variety. We DO have to note here we\'re talking about the Xbox and PC versions though, becuz the PS2 and NGC SC AI were really dumbed down.
* 3D vs 2D aware AI : Snake\'s moves are actually still rooted on a flat 2D plane. Yes, he is walking in a 3D made world but the AI \'sees\' him as walking on one single floor. Dropping down a ledge let\'s you see the visual representative animation of dropping down in 3D. But to the code, the AI, he just switches floors. In essence, MGS2 is still the classic 2d topdown game ; HENCE all AI, like collision detection and also enemy guard AI is bound to that horizontal 2D plane.
In Splinter Cell I once alerted this Chinese guard but I got away up a ladder before he could actually see me. I thought I was safe, but a few seconds later I noticed being shot at ; he had suspected I went up that ladder and he climbed up too. There\'s the difference ; The whole SC engine has physics and AI suited to 3D movement and thus 3D aware enemy AI. (MGS2 only has a few deliberately placed exceptions like the guard with binoculars looking over connecting bridge E - F, on top of the Heli port. But by default enemy guard AI is bound by a 2D plane)
* Variety of AI ; like I said, MGS2\'s enemy AI is actually one huge single homogenous being. Respawning search and destroy squads who hunt down player tracks (game assigned SIGNS) ; all this based in one single setting ; the Tanker or the Plant.
SC\'s AI is varied by setting and by composition. For example ; the T\'bilisi police guards do not operate the same as the Chinese military. They are also not infinitely respawning. They react as individuals becuz Sam mostly takes them out by approaching each of them one at a time. Snake\'s tranq. M9 distances him from the enemy AI. This way the player can stay outside of the guards\' limited range of sight.
Then there\'s the 2nd level of AI in SC ; the civilians and the maintenance technicians. These npc\'s react differently than the guards and they add variety to the whole expierence. Sometimes they chicken out or they stay static in a state of shock or they go straight for alerting alarm.
So, I\'m not saying that SC AI is perfect or that it never goes \'foggy\' but it\'s not less good than MGS2\'s , just different.
The only \'downside\' SC has is that the more you know the game the less the AI stays lethal. Ubi should have really decreased the numbers of hits Sam can take with increasing difficulty level. Well, occasionally SC AI still surprises me and gets me killed. Especially those guards with full automatic weapons stay very lethal.
Anyway, with SC Pandora Tomorrow Ubi will alter enemy AI
( innocent trainpassengers and Jerusalem civilians will be even more 2nd layer AI) considerably which goes hand in hand with the new and more free level design.
-
Unicron: I understand your POV and I knew that my post would get some backlash as it does smooth over the details of why Splinter Cell is a full step up from MGS2. Little details like analog trigger button and being able to hang down ledges are just icing on the cake created when Kojima and his talented team released MGS1.
Splinter Cell isn\'t leagues ahead of MGS2 by any means, but it is much more gameplay-oriented.. and like Knotter said, the A.I. is better than MGS2\'s. BTW, who cares about MGS2\'s story? It was convoluted and unrealistic.
Maybe I like SC more because it\'s a more concrete game experience from a gameplay POV.. while the MGS series offers good gameplay with a much more Solid *cough* storyline.. no matter how silly it got in MGS2.
-
Blade:
heh.
I may sound ridiculous but what does POV mean :embarassed:
First of all to avoid misunderstandings: I am not dissing Splinter Cell.
What I am trrying to point out are the things people seem to avoid or underestimate in MGS2.
MGS2 and Splinter Cell\'s aspects are aiming to different dierctions.what happens is that gamers choose one direction and tend to bury the other one.
MGS2 is different than Splinter Cell.Actually comparing the two is like comparing Blade Runner with Star Wars.
Unrealistic the plot it may be in MGS2 but is that the point?NO.
Splinter Cell\'s plot is simple.Thats why it seems Solid.
I ve completed MGS2 five times and at the end "plot holes" have been reduced to none.MGS2 is trying to make you ponder.Some things arent even directly explained in the game intentionally.
Knotter:
Dont forget that MGS2 was one of the first good attempts on PS2 of complex AI.SC is newer
The first description you made of MGS2 is actually the real thing.
Being for some time in the army here is how things work usually in Army Camps.
There are the outposts and the patrols.Outposts suspect something make sure of what that is and if it is important call superiors (usually an officer in service in camps).Patrols would search that area and replace the outpost if something is wrong.
Actually I was very surprised how this was presented.
I agree it was kind of mechanically presented though.Very predictable.
But as I said what makes MGS2\'s different is the chance to experiment with the AI.Enemies even show emotions.It has a more interactive feel than SC.In SC the AI serves only what is needed for the game.MGS goes beyond the necessary.I am not judging wihich AI is better for the game\'s mechanics.
Actually we agree in some extend:So, I\'m not saying that SC AI is perfect or that it never goes \'foggy\' but it\'s not less good than MGS2\'s , just different.
-
accidentally quoited myself
-
^ Yes, the \'truth\' is like in most cases, somewhere in the middle ; and that applies to both games.
MGS2\'s moral/society message about censore of information and passing on of culture are brilliant stuff by Mr. Kojima. Some twists in the actual MGS2 plot ( to all ppl ; plot is something different than a story\'s message, mind you ;) ) are a bit over the edge imo ; Fortune\'s worse than soap-opera drama over Vamp and Otacon\'s doing his stepmom thing for example. But from the point where Solidus confronts Raiden on Federall Hall and the convo with the AI are just pure genius :thepimp:
Splinter Cell\'s story is better than SC haters make out to be, really. There are alot of subtle and \'read-it-between-the lines\' in the story which make it VERY good. You just gotta make sure you read ALL OPSAT files as well. Remember ; we have to look upon this story in it\'s own context. Fisher works for the USA cause, the NSA. Very patriotic stuff. Becuz of that the story may SEEM at first to be standard stuff. But try to listen to how Fisher comments and questions stuff in the game. They may be small comments or questions, but they truly make for a very good story. Almost on par with MGS1. Some nice examples ;
* Dying scene of Jr. Wilkes ; Fisher doesn\'t say Wilkes\'ll be ok, or some heroic crap that he\'ll avenge Wilkes\' death.... NO, he just honestly says to Wilkes he\'s dying. Very realistic imo for a character like Fisher.
* Beginning of Abbatoir level. Fisher ; "Are we worrying about the broadcast or the execution ?" Seems harsh, but i think this is again very realistic when he\'s out there in the \'field\'.
* Several cases in which Fisher questions stuff, however he\'s kept
\'short and on a leash\' by Lambert. Ironside truly makes this human aspect of Fisher come through. But of course, the professional he is, Fisher achieves the mission goals.
-
^ Yes, the \'truth\' is like in most cases, somewhere in the middle ; and that applies to both games.
MGS2\'s moral/society message about censore of information and passing on of culture are brilliant stuff by Mr. Kojima. Some twists in the actual MGS2 plot ( to all ppl ; plot is something different than a story\'s message, mind you ;) ) are a bit over the edge imo ; Fortune\'s worse than soap-opera drama over Vamp and Otacon\'s doing his stepmom thing for example. But from the point where Solidus confronts Raiden on Federall Hall and the convo with the AI are just pure genius :thepimp:
Heh.Well Hideo Kojima took a very philosophical and psychology pondering approach in the story.How much do we know ourselves.Things like Fortune\'s tragic character had to do a lot with psychology.It showed a weakness we humans tend to express.She couldnt die.So she seeked death(she knew she couldnt die anyways).Convinced herself that she wanted death but it was the convenience that nobody could kill her that made her use that as a camouflage to cover her weakness of self-pittying.It was like "I am a tragic character.I am so desperate and lost into sadness...see me".But that was a context she created by herself with the help of the patriots.The patriots gave her everything.Even the chance to exploit her weakness.
Otacon\'s doing his stepmom also had a part in the game.Showed yet anothe weakness of human.Immoral behaviour doesnt seem as much of a problem.If nobody knows its almost as if it didnt happen.Right.Till something happens that makes you feel guilt and want to run away from the past.
Kojima showed tragic chacracters, weaknesses and a past that hasnt been done before.He made his characters look realistic.Every human has made things or hides things.Imperfection in everyone.It seemed stupid to people but its like the characters you find in books.(not that games can reach the splendor of books)
Splinter Cell\'s story is better than SC haters make out to be, really. There are alot of subtle and \'read-it-between-the lines\' in the story which make it VERY good. You just gotta make sure you read ALL OPSAT files as well. Remember ; we have to look upon this story in it\'s own context. Fisher works for the USA cause, the NSA. Very patriotic stuff. Becuz of that the story may SEEM at first to be standard stuff. But try to listen to how Fisher comments and questions stuff in the game. They may be small comments or questions, but they truly make for a very good story. Almost on par with MGS1. Some nice examples ;
* Dying scene of Jr. Wilkes ; Fisher doesn\'t say Wilkes\'ll be ok, or some heroic crap that he\'ll avenge Wilkes\' death.... NO, he just honestly says to Wilkes he\'s dying. Very realistic imo for a character like Fisher.
* Beginning of Abbatoir level. Fisher ; "Are we worrying about the broadcast or the execution ?" Seems harsh, but i think this is again very realistic when he\'s out there in the \'field\'.
* Several cases in which Fisher questions stuff, however he\'s kept
\'short and on a leash\' by Lambert. Ironside truly makes this human aspect of Fisher come through. But of course, the professional he is, Fisher achieves the mission goals. [/B]
heh.Well......I am against patriotism.I dont think I would like the story.Ofcourse not becuase it might be bad.Its probably perfect for the ears of someone that loves fighting for his country.As MGS2 wasnt liked by a few people since it nulled believes like patriotism(not to mention humans generally :D).(I get the impression that some Americans though misunderstood its universal message and thought it had an anti-american feel to it)
-
I am a mgs whore. My only problem with splinter cell is that if you kill someone then the mission is over. It makes it artificially hard. At the very least he should have a tranq gun. The missions I could kill were true bliss. Heck I love sneaking up on someone just to kill them anyways. :)
-
I am not a sneaking type person. I don\'t get pleasure out of it, to be honest. I like to run on walls, slash people down and what not. With that said, I also have a huge problem with the amount of talking via cinema\'s or codec\'s in the MGS series. Kojimia always wanted to be a movie director and it shows when he does his videogames. As much as I loved ZoE2 - I still think it had to many cinema\'s. Snatcher? A cinematic masterpiece, but I don\'t care to see games go the way of cinema\'s. Infact, the least amount of story possible, is my style. Does that mean MGS is crap or people who like it have bad taste? No. It means the game is not my style, just as I\'m sure SkyGunner / Mark of Kri / Pikimin / Maximo is not everyone\'s style of game,but four games that I adore.
-
I actually finished Twin Snakes in one sitting this afternoon after spending about an hour or two coming to grips with the controls in the opening two scenes of the game namely the dock and the heliport just killing guards, practicing the analog controls with FP aiming, testing the guards vision, etc, and the game is much easier then the original game. I\'ll have to talk more about what makes it good and bad in my review. I\'ll post that link later on when it\'s up on the website.
I\'ll answer any questions about the game that anyone has before then.
-
I got it tonight. I think the graphics are better than MGS2, better texturing, cleaner, and more detail than MGS2. The only thing I gotta say is the Gamecube controller sucks ass for this game.
-
Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
I just hate having to sneak and do anything, unless its \'Mark of Kri\'.
God DAMN, that was an underrated game. Lots of critical success but I don\'t know anyone besides myself that bought it.
-
I ve heard rumors that there is a sequel in the works
-
Wtf, they tampered with the Raven fight! The whole time I was killing the gunner and trying to throw a grenade in, I got blasted about 20 times.
-
I beat it on Normal. I liked the storyline up until we knew all of the twists.
I ordered MGS2:S about halfway through the game, and it\'s been here about a week. I\'ll start that after I finish Splinter Cell 2 and/or Ninja Gaiden.