PSX5Central
Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: fastson on March 11, 2004, 07:52:40 AM
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http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=CVTKEJSZUZF4GCRBAEZSFFA?type=topNews&storyID=4548295§ion=news
MADRID (Reuters) - Basque separatists killed 173 people in simultaneous blasts that ripped through packed Madrid trains in the guerrilla group\'s bloodiest attack in more than three decades, Spain said on Thursday.
There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the attacks across the Spanish capital three days before a national election, but Spain insisted the Basque separatist group ETA was to blame.
It brushed aside suggestions that Muslim militants angry at Spain\'s support for the U.S.-led war in Iraq were behind the attacks.
Ten rush-hour blasts at three railway stations tore up people, including a baby, and left pools of blood in the wreckage of trains, tracks and buildings.
"It is absolutely clear that the terrorist organization ETA was seeking an attack with wide repercussions," Interior Minister Angel Acebes told a hastily called news conference, dismissing speculation that any other group could be involved.
Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar vowed the government would arrest the "criminals" behind the blasts, which ripped open commuter trains like tuna cans.
The Interior Ministry said 173 people died in the explosions which rocked the central Madrid station of Atocha, the southern Madrid station of El Pozo and a third at Santa Eugenia.
Officials said 600 people were injured.
ETA (Euskadi ta Askatasuna) has killed around 850 people since 1968 in its fight for a separate Basque homeland in northwest Spain and southwest France and has been branded a terrorist group by the United States and the European Union.
Late last month, police arrested two suspected ETA members who were heading for Madrid with a van containing 1,100 lbs of explosives, averting a possible attack.
If the Basque group was responsible for Thursday\'s bombings, it would be its deadliest attack, exceeding the 21 people it killed in a supermarket blast in Barcelona in 1987.
A LOT OF BLOOD
"I saw a baby torn to bits," said Ana Maria Mayor, a train passenger, her voice cracking.
Ambulance driver Enrique Sanchez said at Atocha station that many people had facial wounds, amputated limbs and broken bones.
"The train was cut open like a can of tuna...We didn\'t know who to treat first. There was a lot of blood, a lot of blood."
The Spanish government convened an emergency cabinet meeting and the ruling Popular Party suspended its election campaign, which had focused on a tougher stance against ETA.
European stock markets fell sharply on fears the attack was the work of Islamic extremists, while bond markets rallied as investors pushed their cash into safe havens. The September 11 attacks on the U.S. led to sharp falls in global markets in 2001 and were blamed for deepening a worldwide economic slump.
President Bush joined other leaders in condemning the bombings which European Parliament President Pat Cox called the "worst act of terror in memory in any European Union state."
It was the biggest death toll in Europe since December 1988 when a Pan American World Airways Boeing 747 crashed on the town of Lockerbie, Scotland, killing all 259 aboard after a bomb on the plane exploded. Eleven people in Lockerbie also were killed.
Some experts on ETA said the bombings did not fit ETA\'s usual profile for attacks. The guerrilla group has frequently phoned ahead to warn of its plans.
Last month ETA declared a cease-fire limited to the northeastern region of Catalonia but made clear it would pursue the armed struggle in the rest of the country.
In October, two audiotapes purportedly from al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden said the militant group had the "right to respond at any suitable time and place" against those countries with forces in Iraq. Spain was among the countries listed.
Im glad I\'m spared from shit like that. :evil:
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Neve rquite understood why the Basque are so violent. Are they persecuted people by the Spanish government? In the US, we rarely hear about the "why it led to that"....just the explosions.
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could be the Basque... Could be Al Qaeda ...
The Basques have a history of bombings against the Spanish people.
But
Al Qaeda tend go for these Simultaneous attacks
Either way you could say for the moment it doesn\'t matter (for now).
The important thing is to hope that the death toll dosen\'t rise.
The shocking thing is that they discovered 3 (and dealt with) more devises planted near the explosions, from the looks of things they where aimed to kill the emergency services and survivors from the explosion.
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
Neve rquite understood why the Basque are so violent. Are they persecuted people by the Spanish government? In the US, we rarely hear about the "why it led to that"....just the explosions.
ETAs goals:
The group aims to secure an independent Marxist state comprising the Basque-inhabited areas of Spain and France (Euskal Herria). This region includes the Spanish provinces of Vizcaya (Biscay), Guipuzcoa, Alava and Navarre (often referred to collectively as the Basque Country) and the French areas of Lower Navarre, Labourd (Lapurdi) and Soule(Zuberoa), all located in southwestern France in the département of Pyrénées-Atlantiques.
Because of its allegiance to Marxist ideas, ETA has in the past been sponsored by communist regimes such as Cuba, as well as by Libya and Lebanon, and some of its members have found political asylum in Mexico and Venezuela. It has had links with other left-wing terrorist movements in Europe and elsewhere, such as the IRA.
Tactics
The ETA group operates mainly in Spain and was founded in 1959, positioning itself as a resistance movement to General Franco\'s often violent suppression of the Basques.
It often uses terrorist tactics, attacking both civilian and military targets. It employs bombings and assassinations, mainly aimed against politicians opposed to Basque nationalism, journalists, intellectuals, businessmen and the Guardia Civil and other Spanish and Basque security forces. It has killed an estimated 800 people since the 1960s. Its activities have mostly been confined to Spain, particularly the Basque Country, Madrid, Barcelona and the tourist areas of the Mediterranean coast of Spain. Although it has not carried out attacks in France, ETA units have nonetheless been active there.
ETA finances its operations through kidnapping, extortion, robbery, arms traffic and "taxes" . It is listed as a terrorist organization by the United States and all EU countries, as of December 2001.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA
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Do you idolize those guys fastson?
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Don\'t think so Giga ....I think he was just posting ETA\'s "Reason of being".
Looks like most of the Football games have been cancelled , with the expection of the Glasgow Celtic Vs Barcelona.
Going to be a Minutes silence for the victims..
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Do you idolize those guys fastson?
:confused:
To answer your question: No
Just posted the info on what ETA is, from wikipedia.
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Maybe Adan will stop working on his latest 3D project and come give us some input...
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Originally posted by fastson
:confused:
To answer your question: No
Just posted the info on what ETA is, from wikipedia.
The reason I asked is from what I gather you like Marxist governments. No insult intended.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
The reason I asked is from what I gather you like Marxist governments. No insult intended.
Umm. No, I dont support "governments" who kill civilians like that.
Just because I\'m a socialist (actually a social democrat) does not mean I support ALL socialistic government, just like you would not support a state similar to the one Adolf Hitler had. ( :rolleyes: I know)
On the topic again, it seems a van has been found containing detonators and audio tapes with verses from the Koran.
Hmm..
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As ooseven said most likely Al Qaeda. I wouldn\'t think the commies would gain much public sympathy for doing something like that ;)
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UPDATE:
Al Qaeda claims responsibility.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,113887,00.html
Or so a letter states... more to follow...
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If it is Al Qaeda then they are getting closer. :eek:
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That\'s pretty sad. It\'ll be sadder if it was Al-Quaeda(sp) that did all this shit. What\'s more scary is that they found some letter that claims that there is a terrorist attack almost ready to hit here in the US.
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Anyone seen Adan lately?
...
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Now thats ****ed up. Why Spain though? I thought they would attack someone more involved in the war. I can\'t see how these people think killing innocent 190 people justifies for a war they were against. Pure hypocrisy.
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I think Spain has troops in Iraq. This would explain the terrorist attack.
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Yesterday was one of the saddest days in Spain. We don not know yet who did this chaos but it\'s between Eta and al-qaeda.
I\'ll continue with me renderings video.
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Originally posted by Seed_Of_Evil
Yesterday was one of the saddest days in Spain. We don not know yet who did this chaos but it\'s between Eta and al-qaeda.
I\'ll continue with me renderings video.
I saw a thing on the news, and they think ETA may have actually died out. Al-Qaeda is taking credit for it though, even though they have lied before.
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Blair+Bush=scaremongering when it comes to world terror??
Pffffff.
Bollocks!!.
For me, this tells me that that they acted justifiably.
I don\'t give a shit what anyone says. The boys done good.
I hope they catch all responsible & string \'em up.
edit//
Adan. Your country are the innocent victims. All those deaths that were brought on by an act of cowardice, an act of terrorism, devised on a country by fanatics, mislead into action by a league of despots.
My thoughts are with you, and all the innocent victims, caught up in this act of atrocity.
Peace to you Adan, peace to your country & it\'s peoples, and I hope you or none of the people you hold dear to you came to any harm.
God bless mate.
Stay safe.
John S.
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I\'ve always known that terrorism was a threat. Ever since 9/11. But you are saying that Bush and Blair are considered to be scaremonging or whatever. I\'ve never thought that, but if it\'s Al-Quaeda, what was the use of the war? Like I said, the war in Iraq has caused many more problems that it has solved, furthermore, the war in Iraq probably has nothing to do with this, Al-Quaeda probably attacked Spain because they are a US ally which really sucks.
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I\'ve always known that terrorism was a threat.
Man, that makes you sound so ****ing stuck-up.
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LOL :bs:
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Thanx Cerberus.
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And now the Socialists won in the Spanish election due to the conservatives "siding with Bush" and provoking a terrorist attack... talk about cowards... I guess Al Qaeda won that battle - just plant a bomb in any country that sides with America, kill a few civilians and a meek government that opposes the US will be elected in their place.
Too bad Franco isn\'t still around :rolleyes:
If I were a Muslim I would definitely move to Spain since I could pretty much get anything I wanted. A few more attacks and I would bet Spain would hold a referrendum to give back the parts of the Spain the Moors lost back in the 1400\'s.
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^^^yep & now spain states it will start pulling troops from iraq. I\'m sorry spain i know it\'s a catastrophy but you can\'t let a bunch of terrorists punk you out like that. So just plant a bomb and everybody\'s shook? sorry you\'re just showin whoever\'s responsible that you\'re not willing to stand up to them.
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I agree, yet it isn\'t all Spaniards. I just can\'t believe how Europe in general can cave in to a bunch of madmen. Oh wait, it happened 65 years ago - appeasement doesn\'t work - you would have thought they would have learned their lesson then.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
I agree, yet it isn\'t all Spaniards. I just can\'t believe how Europe in general can cave in to a bunch of madmen. Oh wait, it happened 65 years ago - appeasement doesn\'t work - you would have thought they would have learned their lesson then.
Remember those three terrorists from the 1972 Munich Olympics that survived? They were held by the Germans until a German airline plane was hijacked and demanded the release of the terrorist. And sure enough, the Germans sent them back to Palestine.
Israel was beyond pissed. They sent a team to hunt down assasinate 2 of the 3 terrorists. The third one has been hiding in Africa since the mid 70\'s.
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
Remember those three terrorists from the 1972 Munich Olympics that survived? They were held by the Germans until a German airline plane was hijacked and demanded the release of the terrorist. And sure enough, the Germans sent them back to Palestine.
Israel was beyond pissed. They sent a team to hunt down assasinate 2 of the 3 terrorists. The third one has been hiding in Africa since the mid 70\'s.
Another good example Gman. It is a shame so few in Europe possess any kind of backbone. A few do and when they side with the US the "socialists" condemn them. They should put a picture of a sheep under the definition of socialist. :rolleyes:
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:rolleyes:
Please tell me you know that the Spanish people did not even want to send their soldiers to Iraq in the first place.. You do right?
But the Spanish government, much like the British government made the "democratic" choice (ignoring what the people thought) of sending the soldiers anyway.
Are you questioning the peoples choice now, the democratic choice? The Spanish government took the chance and now they are paying for it. Democracy.
Btw, the war is already over(?).. Bush (& Blair) got what they wanted.
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Truth hurts doesn\'t it fastson? ;) The socialists never would have been elected in Spain if those bombs hadn\'t gone off. Bin Laden must be pretty happy right about now considering he can influence the outcome of a national election in the so called "free world" to his favor.
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No it does not hurt.. Im happy to have yet another fellow socialistic government in Europe.
The people rule! :)
The socialists never would have been elected in Spain if those bombs hadn\'t gone off.
Are you sure? They were pretty close.
“A week before the election Partido popular was in the lead with 42% against 38% for PSOE. Four days later the trains blew up. The result for the election was 37.6% for PP and 42.6% for PSOE.”
And you know the surveys are always off. :)
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Western Europe is for the weak. Even the Polish have more determination than the Spanish... Yeah they were attacked and now they want to bury their heads in the sand. That vote proved it. Granted if the new government would have taken the same approach regarding terror and Iraq as the first one did - it would have shown Bin Laden and company that Europe can\'t be intimidated.
If I remember correctly the last socialist government in Spain was swept from power due to its own corruption. So much for your Utopia...
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Originally posted by fastson
No it does not hurt.. Im happy to have yet another fellow socialistic government in Europe.
The people rule! :)
Are you sure? They were pretty close.
“A week before the election Partido popular was in the lead with 42% against 38% for PSOE. Four days later the trains blew up. The result for the election was 37.6% for PP and 42.6% for PSOE.”
And you know the surveys are always off. :)
Do you need further proof?
"But on election day voters expressed anger with the government, accusing it of provoking the Madrid attacks by supporting the U.S.-led war in Iraq, which a vast majority of Spaniards opposed. "
Like I said, the bombings influenced the election - you have to really be ignorant to think that they didn\'t.
"I wasn\'t planning to vote, but I am here today because the Popular Party is responsible for murders here and in Iraq," said Ernesto Sanchez-Gey, 48, who voted in Barcelona.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,114147,00.html
Socialism is a joke - I see the Spanish Stock Market is taking a dive today as a direct result of the communists... um I mean socialists coming to power.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Western Europe is for the weak.
:rolleyes: Its weak because it does not want to send soldiers to get killed?
Even the Polish have more determination than the Spanish...
The Poles will do anything that will get them attention. They did not send soldiers to Iraq for free, no.. Your government promised them great fortunes, investments, contracts etc.
Yeah they were attacked and now they want to bury their heads in the sand.
Did you ignore what I said.. The Spanish people along with most of the people in Europe was against the war. They did not want to send people there in the first place.
So much for your Utopia...
Like corruption is not present in "right"-wing countries. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Like I said, the bombings influenced the election - you have to really be ignorant to think that they didn\'t.
I never said it didn’t, but the results was pretty close before it happened.
And since the surveys are off a great deal (I remember the last election here when the conservatives BOMBED (damn that was funny :D ), no survey showed this) the race might have been more close then it appeared.
Socialism is a joke - I see the Spanish Stock Market is taking a dive today as a direct result of the communists... um I mean socialists coming to power.
And commies eat kids, remember?
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Osama says "jump" and some of you would ask "How high, oh great fearful one?"
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And one thinks: Think independently, or do what the world police says?
"Jump" "How high, officer?"
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Originally posted by fastson
:rolleyes: Its weak because it does not want to send soldiers to get killed?
It is weak for bending to the will of terrorists. See below.
The Poles will do anything that will get them attention. They did not send soldiers to Iraq for free, no.. Your government promised them great fortunes, investments, contracts etc.
Of course they will get contracts - just as Spain DID. If you help you should be rewarded. If you don\'t - don\'t cry when your country isn\'t awarded anything.
Did you ignore what I said.. The Spanish people along with most of the people in Europe was against the war. They did not want to send people there in the first place.
That isn\'t the point - the point is the election was decided by terrorists - not by the people. Try to comprehend what I am saying - I couldn\'t care less if Spain has troops there or not (their 1300 aren\'t that significant) - what I do care about is the ability of terrorism to influence people\'s decisions and a countries policy. To say that it didn\'t is pure fantasy.
Like corruption is not present in "right"-wing countries. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Corruption exists everywhere - I do find it funny that the Spanish economy flourished when the Socialists were voted out.
I never said it didn’t, but the results was pretty close before it happened.
And since the surveys are off a great deal (I remember the last election here when the conservatives BOMBED (damn that was funny :D ), no survey showed this) the race might have been more close then it appeared.
Even by implying that it wouldn\'t have mattered is wrong. It is clear that the timing of the attack was planned right before the election.
and commies eat kids, remember?
Actually the communists aren\'t nearly as bad as you socialists... at least they had (USSR) a spine and dealt with threats instead of submitting to them. Fast forward to Russia today and you see the same thing - When terrorists attacked that theater in Moscow - it didn\'t deter Putin from doing what was right - don\'t negotiate with terrorists.
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Originally posted by fastson
And one thinks: Think independently, or do what the world police says?
"Jump" "How high, officer?"
This is what is fundamentally wrong with people like you fastson - you have no grasp as to who your real enemy is. It probably won\'t happen in your lifetime, but if Europe continues down the path of appeasement it will be conquered - not by the US, but by the ones you are now appeasing. No wonder Hitler conquered most of the continent...
Gman, they want the best of both worlds - they want us to fund the UN and act as the global police force (they whine when we don\'t intervene) and then criticize us when we do and don\'t get their approval. :rolleyes:
The UN is irrelevant.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
This is what is fundamentally wrong with people like you fastson - you have no grasp as to who your real enemy is. It probably won\'t happen in your lifetime, but if Europe continues down the path of appeasement it will be conquered - not by the US, but by the ones you are now appeasing. No wonder Hitler conquered most of the continent...
Thats nice.. So by "thinking independently" Im "appeasing" who?
Do not think I agree with Usama or some other Muslim lunatic.
But don’t think I will agree anyone just because he has the most power.
I know you like to think Muslims will take over Europe.
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Originally posted by fastson
Thats nice.. So by "thinking independently" Im "appeasing" who?
Do not think I agree with Usama or some other Muslim lunatic.
But don’t think I will agree anyone just because he has the most power.
I know you like to think Muslims will take over Europe.
It has already begun. Spain was a likely target for Osama even if there were no troops in Iraq due to the Osama\'s bitterness over the history of Islam in Spain, or rather the end of its history in Spain.
Answer this question fastson... who is the bigger threat to the world in your opinion and why?
Bush or Bin Laden?
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
It has already begun. Spain was a likely target for Osama even if there were no troops in Iraq due to the Osama\'s bitterness over the history of Islam in Spain, or rather the end of its history in Spain.
Is it confirmed to have been al-Queda? I know "AQ" has taken responsibility for the bombing, but some still suspect some Moroccan group?
In all honesty, do you think one man or a "small" network can take over a continent? The fear for the Muslims/Islam is starting to sound like the fear for Jews during WW2.. Some people think they all are apart of a huge network and its in their genies to murder and kill civilians, like the Nazis said Jews were part of a huge network with one goal, to steal money from the Germans and become rich!
who is the bigger threat to the world in your opinion and why?
Bush or Bin Laden?
Right now, bin Laden.. Even though he sits somewhere in the desert with several days of delay before he gets any news, he does have lots of loyal followers, but not nearly enough to take over a country or a continent for that matter.
He can make bombs go off, planes crash causing devastation for a time. But Usamas powers are greatly over hyped in my honest opinion. I think he is feared not because of his "powers" but because his network can remain undetected, he\'s not your regular enemy.
Though only one man of those two has the ability to destroy the world.
But Usama is my answer.
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Why is Spain withdrawing? The US gets 4,000 killed in a terrorist attack, and goes and hunts them down. I know they don\'t have a powerful military but shit, they\'re just doing exactly what the terrorists wanted. I know the people related to the people murdered are now wanting to fight terrorism. Wouldn\'t you be wanting to hunt down terrorists if your mother or father was blown up by them fastson?
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Originally posted by ViVi
Why is Spain withdrawing? The US gets 4,000 killed in a terrorist attack, and goes and hunts them down. I know they don\'t have a powerful military but shit, they\'re just doing exactly what the terrorists wanted. I know the people related to the people murdered are now wanting to fight terrorism. Wouldn\'t you be wanting to hunt down terrorists if your mother or father was blown up by them fastson?
I really hate to say it, but there are some in Spain and here in the US who are secretly happy about the attacks in Madrid. Anything that benefits the terrorists benefits anti Bush people here in the US and abroad.
As for your question - it is because they are weak and want to give up. Some have no stomach for even one life lost in a battle against pure evil. :rolleyes:
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It is easy for you to condemn Europe during WW2 when you know what happened.
You can\'t predict the future, at the time, avoiding another World War was a better option.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Actually the communists aren\'t nearly as bad as you socialists... at least they had (USSR) a spine and dealt with threats instead of submitting to them. Fast forward to Russia today and you see the same thing - When terrorists attacked that theater in Moscow - it didn\'t deter Putin from doing what was right - don\'t negotiate with terrorists.
Communism is socialism with a dictator.
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
It is easy for you to condemn Europe during WW2 when you know what happened.
You can\'t predict the future, at the time, avoiding another World War was a better option.
:bsflag:
Churchill saw it coming from a mile away and he wasn\'t alone. Europe is hollow shell of its former self for the most part. I am not condemning all Europeans, but most of the ones I have seen here spouting their misguided and illogical opinions are quite worthless. ;)
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Can someone list the main differences between all the different types of governments?
Communism, Socialism, etc etc etc and a country for each...
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Originally posted by Ashford
Can someone list the main differences between all the different types of governments?
Communism, Socialism, etc etc etc and a country for each...
Here is what Socialism is:
As defined by the American Heritage Dictionary
"Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy."
or by Princeton University\'s Worldnet
"n 1: a political theory advocating state ownership of industry 2: an economic system based on state ownership of capital."
Socialism is often looked at as being soley a "welfare state", but that is not true as state ownership of industry is key in defining what a socialist country is.
Sweden for example, is NOT a socialist country since 90% of its industry is privately owned.
Communism is like socialism - as Black Samurai said it is socialism with a dictator - Cuba, North Korea, etc.
A lot of European countries like to look at themselves as socialist - ie. Sweden when in fact all they really are are welfare states. Sweden has a population of roughly 9 million - which is about the size of NYC and is far better suited for welfare programs than a country like the US. In some respects countries like Sweden are more "comfortable" for living than the US, but it does have its drawbacks. No military, high illegitimacy rate (53%), 20% higher suicide rate than the US - and lets bring up the "forced sterilization" that was practiced for 40 years to try and model Sweden into the ultimate welfare state by lowering its population growth.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
Originally posted by GigaShadow
No military, high illegitimacy rate (53%), 20% higher suicide rate than the US - and lets bring up the "forced sterilization" that was practiced for 40 years to try and model Sweden into the ultimate welfare state by lowering its population growth. [/B]
No military? During the cold war we could mobilize 800 000 men with the 4th largest airforce in the world, though the military is smaller today its still one with the highest technological standard (JAS 39 Gripen is the world\'s best light weight multi role combat aircraft in production).
Bofors AT4, Carl Gustav, ring a ding-ding-dingely bell?
higher suicide rate
Actually that might have been true 20 years ago, but today.. No :)
forced sterilization
:rolleyes: And this is something caused by socialism? Please. Why bring up something old btw? Trying to smear something on us?
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Originally posted by fastson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
No military? During the cold war we could mobilize 800 000 men with the 4th largest airforce in the world, though the military is smaller today its still one with the highest technological standard (JAS 39 Gripen is the world\'s best light weight multi role combat aircraft in production).
Bofors AT4, Carl Gustav, ring a ding-ding-dingely bell?
Actually that might have been true 20 years ago, but today.. No :)
:rolleyes: And this is something caused by socialism? Please. Why bring up something old btw? Trying to smear something on us?
Sweden is neutral and hasn\'t been in a war since the 18th century. It only figures that pacifism runs rampant in Sweden. Yes I agree, you do have some technological marvels, but as far as defense spending goes - it is microscopic compared to the US. During the Cold War, the only thing protecting Sweden was the US/NATO alliance - otherwise the USSR would have gobbled Sweden up and made it another Lithuania/Latvia/Estonia.
If I wanted to run a smear campaign I would just ask what percentage of the Swedish population works? For those who are curious the answer is roughly 17 percent! The rest are either in school, on pension, on "stress leave", or on sick leave... It is a slackers paradise! I have to admit I am a bit envious though. The government acts as your safety net if you become ill or jobless. Here in the US we are fighters... survivors if you will... we have to battle for a decent education and a good job. If we become unemployed we will most likely lose our homes and most of other vital possessions (ie. automobile).
Yes, the Swedish policy of forced sterilization was due to the attempt at creating the perfect welfare state. There is no way the Swedish welfare system could work with a high population.
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Don\'t be bringing up the past giga, America has a bad one.
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Originally posted by ViVi
Don\'t be bringing up the past giga, America has a bad one.
Is 1970 that long ago? Please... I can bring up the current if you like. It is typical for non US citizens to point out all the flaws with the US - I find it ironic that those same people get upset when part of their shadowy past is brought to light.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Sweden is neutral and hasn\'t been in a war since the 18th century. It only figures that pacifism runs rampant in Sweden. Yes I agree, you do have some technological marvels, but as far as defense spending goes - it is microscopic compared to the US. During the Cold War, the only thing protecting Sweden was the US/NATO - otherwise the USSR would have gobbled Sweden up and made it another Lithuania/Latvia/Estonia.
Yes we are neutral, it was a strategy we took on after WW1. Yes we haven’t been in war since the 1814. Why? It was a choice we took on after 1721, you see we used to be a great power in the 1600-1700.. The cost of this was a almost constant state of war in the 1600-1700 (untill 1721), where Russia, Denmark, Poland, the small German states etc. wanted to get back what they had lost to us.
If I wanted to run a smear campaign I would just ask what percentage of the Swedish population works? For those who are curious the answer is roughly 17 percent!
:laughing: And may I ask for a source?
If we become unemployed we will most likely lose our homes and most of other vital possessions (ie. automobile).
And that shows how much you know about our system :)
If you want to apply for welfare you must present what our own etc. If you have a car, you might have to sell it before they will grant you welfare (depends on how long you expect to be on it), while you are on welfare you MUST activly seek employment.
Its your right to get welfare as a Swedish citizen, its nice to know that its there if something happens. It is not designed to pay for you for longer periods of time.. The welfare office and AMS (Arbetsförmedlingen = employment service) will help you with employment.
Yes, the Swedish policy of forced sterilization was due to the attempt at creating the perfect welfare state.
Never heard this, I have only read about it when talking about people with mental disturbances. May I have a source?
How did we go from the bombings in Madrid, to slamming socialism, to slamming sweden? :eek:
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Bored and decided to pick on the insignificant neutral country of Sweden since Adan isn\'t around to defend Spain ;)
As for the sterilization - yes, you are right it did involve disabled and those deemed genetically "inferior." 60,000 is a lot for a country of 9 million.
http://www.athensnewspapers.com/1997/082797/0827.a4sweden.html
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Thanks.
And the source for only 17% of the people working? ;)
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Hold on talking on the phone and have a crisis at home... The figure is for those working at any one time and represents the entire population, but I will get you a reference.
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Thats nice.. But it does not say anything about them sterilizing to keep the population down and to preserve the welfare system?
Other than that, nothing new under the sun.. It has been known for years, and these news must be pretty old? Carl Bildt retired in 1999 from the party.
"The figure is for those working at any one time and represents the entire population, but I will get you a reference."
I have already checked the figures from SCB and you are way off.. ;)
http://www.scb.se/templates/tableOrChart____23314.asp
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still this does not bode well for spain, regardless if they wanted to send troops or not they made the decision to send troops. You don\'t back out when S**t hits the fan. what signal are you giving the terrorists? A lot of you already know where i stand with the war..but once the u.s. entered iraq i felt..and still feel the u.s. have to stay until things are under control.
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Originally posted by fastson
Thats nice.. But it does not say anything about them sterilizing to keep the population down and to preserve the welfare system?
Other than that, nothing new under the sun.. It has been known for years, and these news must be pretty old? Carl Bildt retired in 1999 from the party.
"The figure is for those working at any one time and represents the entire population, but I will get you a reference."
I have already checked the figures from SCB and you are way off.. ;)
http://www.scb.se/templates/tableOrChart____23314.asp
Looky here...
http://www.nek.uu.se/Pdf/2002wp1.pdf
and yours is all in Swedish does that include seasonal workers?
As far as Sterilization goes this is from the Washington Post:
From the Washington Post:
"From 1934 to 1974, 62,000 Swedes were sterilized as part of a national program grounded in the science of racial biology and carried out by officials who believed they were helping to build a progressive, enlightened welfare state...In some cases, couples judged to be inferior parents were sterilized, as were their children when they became teenagers."
Is it also true that Child Welfare in Sweden can take children away from their parents at will? Apparently Sweden has lost several cases in the European Court of Human Rights.
http://www.nkmr.org
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Looky here...
http://www.nek.uu.se/Pdf/2002wp1.pdf
and yours is all in Swedish does that include seasonal workers?
It includes everyone that works. As you can see the percentage of the population that works now, aged 16-64 is 73.6%.
Thats a long ass document, would you mind quoting or saying what page that 17% figure is given?
Do you think that if only 17% of the population works, we could afford healthcare, schools etc. etc.? ;) We might be good, but not gods :p
http://www.ccsd.ca/pubs/2002/olympic/indicators.htm ;)
"From 1934 to 1974, 62,000 Swedes were sterilized as part of a national program grounded in the science of racial biology and carried out by officials who believed they were helping to build a progressive, enlightened welfare state...In some cases, couples judged to be inferior parents were sterilized, as were their children when they became teenagers.
I searched and found nothing about it in Swedish, may I have the address, I\'d like to read more on it.
Is it also true that Child Welfare in Sweden can take children away from their parents at will? Apparently Sweden has lost several cases in the European Court of Human Rights.
You mean the social services? If the child is mistreated, like if the parents are drunks, drug users, then yes the children will be taken away.
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Originally posted by fastson
You mean the social services? If the child is mistreated, like if the parents are drunks, drug users, then yes the children will be taken away.
The Civil Servants are pretty much immune from prosecution under current Swedish law correct? I guess that is why social services can get away with taking someones child away on a whim, which can only be challenged after the fact.
Some 15,000 children were subject to care orders in 2002, 4,300 under these particularly heinous circumstance. This is 4 times the number of those in the UK.
My source on the one above is a Swedish Civil Servant who worked for the Employment Department.
More on the sterilization:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/dieteman/dieteman33.html
It quotes the article from the August 29, 1997 issue of the Washington Post.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
The Civil Servants are pretty much immune from prosecution under current Swedish law correct? I guess that is why social services can get away with taking someones child away on a whim, which can only be challenged after the fact.
I dont know, I doubt it.
Believe me, they only get involved if absolutely necessary. And they do not always take the child away, there are other options also.
More on the sterilization:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/dieteman/dieteman33.html
It quotes the article from the August 29, 1997 issue of the Washington Post.
That was a nice read, right-wing "skit" in short.. I like his request to leave the socialistic ideas behind. ;)
No, I ask for more serious sources, his site is like http://www.socialism.nu but the other way around.
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Originally posted by fastson
I dont know, I doubt it.
Believe me, they only get involved if absolutely necessary. And they do not always take the child away, there are other options also.
That was a nice read, right-wing "skit" in short.. I like his request to leave the socialistic ideas behind. ;)
No, I ask for more serious sources, his site is like http://www.socialism.nu but the other way around.
The link regarding the social services issues is fact - look at the cases and see how many are against Sweden.
http://www.nkmr.org - do you dispute what this website says?
Not that the US isn\'t in there as well, but Sweden is not the enlightened nation it likes to sometimes portray itself as being.
The second link was for the Washington Post Article which is quoted in that link. That is the only link to the original article I could find on short notice as the article is from 1997 - I didn\'t even read the rest of it. Sorry if the truth hurts.
;)
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
The link regarding the social services issues is fact - look at the cases and see how many are against Sweden.
I never questioned it, and not very shocking that the most cases are against Sweden, the organistaion only covers the Nordic area, and we\'re the biggest country.
The second link was for the Washington Post Article which is quoted in that link. That is the only link to the original article I could find on short notice as the article is from 1997 - I didn\'t even read the rest of it. Sorry if the truth hurts.
;)
The one about sterilizing for welfare? Well I doubt it very much as that is the only source I have ever seen where that has been stated. The first link you gave me didnt even mention it, since it should be an important part of the whole sterilization deal and not being mentioned anywhere else I see it as pretty unbelievable.
So kids, what good has come out of this discussion?
#1: My post count has gone up. (https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.psx2central.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Ficons%2Ficon14.gif&hash=9c3035c644ee2b36fab25473a9d71115e944ae48)
#2: GigaShadow has learned something :D ;)
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Originally posted by fastson
The first link you gave me didnt even mention it, since it should be an important part of the whole sterilization deal and not being mentioned anywhere else I see it as pretty unbelievable.
So kids, what good has come out of this discussion?
#1: My post count has gone up. (https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.psx2central.com%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Ficons%2Ficon14.gif&hash=9c3035c644ee2b36fab25473a9d71115e944ae48)
#2: GigaShadow has learned something :D ;)
I suppose your English skills aren\'t quite what I thought they were. Those are two seperate links. The last one quoted the Washington Post which quotes sterilization. :rolleyes:
Also how can you say that is not surprising - that is quite Third Reich like of Sweden don\'t you think?
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
I suppose your English skills aren\'t quite what I thought they were. Those are two seperate links. The last one quoted the Washington Post which quotes sterilization. :rolleyes:
Yes I understand that.
Now when I read the quote again it does not say anything new.
"who believed they were helping to build a progressive, enlightened welfare state..."
They though they were "contributing" to society, they did not do it for the welfare system, or because of it.
Also how can you say that is not surprising - that is quite Third Reich like of Sweden don\'t you think?
What do you mean? Sterilization is of course shocking, but it happened a long time ago, and it has been done in countless of countries.. It does not have a direct link to socialism so I don’t know why its even in this debate. Same with lobotomi.
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How about them masseuses?
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Better then a heart clogging big mac, thats for sure. ;)
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Okay...
So, can someone elaborate more on the different types of governments?
Commies and others?
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Originally posted by Ashford
Okay...
So, can someone elaborate more on the different types of governments?
Commies and others?
Well this is sort of funny. ;)
Socialism -- If you have 2 cows, you give one to your neighbor.
Communism -- If you have 2 cows, you give them to the government; and the government gives you some milk.
Fascism -- If you have 2 cows, you keep the cows but give the milk to the government, who then sells you the milk at a high price.
Nazism -- If you have 2 cows, the government shoots you and keeps the cows.
New Dealism -- (FDR Version) If you have 2 cows, you shoot one, milk the other one; then pour the milk down the drain.
Capitalism -- (Reaganomics) If you have 2 cows, you sell one and buy a bull; you then sell all the excess milk to the government who in turn ships it to fascist and communist governments.
Anarchism -- If you have 2 cows, your neighbor on your left takes one cow, and the one on the right takes the other; while your backyard neighbor takes the milk, the bucket and the stool.
Utopianism -- If you have 2 cows, Mother Nature zaps the cows, turning their udders into eternal milk-shake dispensers.
Pure Socialism -- You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else\'s cows. You have to take care of all the cows.The government gives you as much milk as you need.
Bureaucratic Socialism -- You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else\'s cows. They are cared for by ex-chicken farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk and eggs as the regulations say you should need.
Pure Communism -- You have two cows. Your neighbors help you take care of them, and you all share the milk.
Russian Communism -- You have two cows. You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk.
Cambodian Communism -- You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you.
Dictatorship -- You have two cows. The government takes both and drafts you.
Pure Democracy -- You have two cows. Your neighbors decide who gets the milk.
Representative Democracy -- You have two cows. Your neighbors pick someone to tell you who gets the milk.
Bureaucracy -- You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. Then it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the missing cows.
Pure Anarchy -- You have two cows. Either you sell the milk at a fair price or your neighbors try to take the cows and kill you.
Surrealism -- You have two giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.
Programmers-Trying-to-Meet-Year-2000-Deadline -- You have two cows. You keep them both, force them to produce the milk of four cows, then act surprised when they drop dead.
If you want to read more there is always the splendid Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
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See in socialist countries you are hated if you become rich through working. Its ok if you win the lottery though. ;)
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
See in socialist countries you are hated if you become rich through working. Its ok if you win the lottery though. ;)
Is that a fact? I didnt know you lived in a socialistic country. ;)
I dont hate the rich people I know, I do dislike brats though :)
If someone here hates the rich, its probably because they believe in the Jantelag. ;) (Jantelag = Jante law = A "law" made up by the Danish/Norwegian author Aksel Sandemose.)
http://www.danishcanadiancc.org/jantelaw.html
Btw, Giga.. Have you ever been in Europe?
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Lived in Europe for 4 years and yes I have been to quasi socialist countries.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Lived in Europe for 4 years and yes I have been to quasi socialist countries.
Where in Europe? Germany? France (:p )?
Are you angry because they did not grant you the social benifits? ;)
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I lived in Germany - but I must say the worst country other than France in Northern Europe is the Netherlands. There was some guy I knew there who was in his early 20\'s and collecting disability. The joke was he went to heavy metal concerts regularly and I couldn\'t see anything physically wrong with him. He could go party, but he couldn\'t work... yeah ok. So basically this guy was going to slack his entire life while the government picked up the tab.
Another thing that bothered me about the Netherlands was their misconceptions about history. A lot of them believe that Canadians liberated Holland by themselves. Why do they think this way? The textbooks don\'t give the Americans credit for anything regarding the Dutch and WW2. In addition he pointed out that there was a Canadian military graveyard across the street from where he lived to back up this claim. I tried to explain to him that the liberation of Holland was a joint venture - British, American and Canadian, but he would have no part of it.
Do socialists also subscribe to revisionist views on history? The reason I ask is because you haven\'t acknowledged that the forced sterilization in Sweden was due to the Swedish trying to create a balanced welfare state. The Washington Post is valid source, yet you deny that it had anything to do with welfare and the structure of Swedish society.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
I lived in Germany - but I must say the worst country other than France in Northern Europe is the Netherlands. There was some guy I knew there who was in his early 20\'s and collecting disability. The joke was he went to heavy metal concerts regularly and I couldn\'t see anything physically wrong with him. He could go party, but he couldn\'t work... yeah ok. So basically this guy was going to slack his entire life while the government picked up the tab.
Ok, well there are people like that everywhere, when I lived in the US I met a person like that, a drunk living on welfare (her kid was in my brothers class, she even came to school drunk several times), I reckon she was pretty capable of working. :)
I don’t know how it is in the Nederland’s, but here if you need welfare support they will be on you like a wolf to try and get you back to work as soon as possible.
Do socialists also subscribe to revisionist views on history? The reason I ask is because you haven\'t acknowledged that the forced sterilization in Sweden was due to the Swedish trying to create a balanced welfare state. The Washington Post is valid source, yet you deny that it had anything to do with welfare and the structure of Swedish society.
Revisionist, you mean like people who say the holocaust did not take place? Godness no, they do everything to remind us of what happened both in Germany and Soviet Union.. You can get a free book "Om detta må ni berätta" which is about the holocaust, I hope they will make a similar one about Stalin’s Soviet. They also had a Jewish man who was a prisoner in Auschwitz come to our school, he was one of the translators who took part in the Nuremberg trail, he lives here now and has written several books.
On the sterilization thing, I acknowledge it happened, its a well known fact that it was done to people with not wanted "racial" differences such as mental retards etc. I do however not trust where it says that it was done for keeping a balanced welfare system. If you read the quote they say they did not directly do it because of the welfare system, they though they were contributing to the system. Also, there has been studies made on the matter, and none of them brings up anything about it being done for welfare.
Read the quote again.. what does it say?
"who believed they were helping to build a progressive, enlightened welfare state"
They believed, they thought.. Its very much iffy.
#1: The quote says they thought, believed.
#2: It is the only source that "tries" to state something like it.
#3: The website it comes off seems to have an agenda. :cool:
#4: Do not trust everything you read on the internet, even if he states it comes from a newspaper it CAN be made up (note: CAN be, Im not saying it is).
As I said before, I dont know why it was brought up, it happened a long time ago and the people know it happened, there have been countless of documentaries on the matter which have been aired on television.
If you want to bring up the past there are several other issues we are not so proud about, but of course they are not related to the social democrats, so you might not be interested. ;)
Perhaps the 12 page American history book can reveal some “not so proud” moments? ;)
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Originally posted by fastson
Perhaps the 12 page American history book can reveal some “not so proud” moments? ;)
Where would the fun in that be? Everyone knows about America\'s questionable past... nothing new there. I just find it interesting that other countries have their own skeletons in the closet so to speak, but are more than happy to point out all the flaws in US history. I just used Sweden as an example because you were from Sweden - I personally don\'t have anything against Sweden or any of the nordic countries.
Back to the subject though... yes its been 24 hours since we last talked about it ;)
I think Spain made a serious error by electing a candidate that endorses pulling out of Iraq - regardless of whether it was popular or unpopular. After the bombings, I would think a country would be defiant rather than give in to what Bin Laden and friends want. To me it doesn\'t make sense and is a sign of weakness. It also sends a message to terrorists that they can acheive their goals through terror. :(
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
I just find it interesting that other countries have their own skeletons in the closet so to speak, but are more than happy to point out all the flaws in US history. .
I think (and hope!) everyone knows that all countries have done something not-so-good in the past.
I can agree that the US sometimes gets too much flak from some people.
It also sends a message to terrorists that they can acheive their goals through terror. :(
Do you think that your government never should negotiate with terrorists? Even if they helled 100 of your countrymen as prisoners and threatened to kill them?
Isreal made a deal with (hamas? or was it some terror group from Libya?) to release XX-prisoners in exchange for the bodies from some of their soldiers and one (I think) alive soldier.
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No I don\'t think terrorists should be negotiated with.
Interesting article on how terrorism won in Spain...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,114289,00.html
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It was Hezbollah Israel negotiated with...
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Just to get back on topic slightly it seems the spanish authorities are after six morrocan men in connection with the bombings. One is in custody, the other five are still at large.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3515138.stm
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I didn\'t really bother to read everysingle word around here but I did come across one of the most ignorant and stupid comments ever made it went something like "anything the terrorist do benefits the anti-bush..."blah blah blah....Wow, pretty gay.
I think Spain is doing the right thing. They are protecting their own ass which is what GWB did with Iraq in the first place. Are they being cowardly and getting the hell out? Yes. Did the terrorist win? Yes. But are they going to keep on putting out their neck for more terrorist attacks in their country. Doesn\'t seem like it.
I also read that most Spaniards didn\'t agree with the war in the first place. Did the Government pay for it? Yes. Just like Blair is paying for his.
To me the Spaniards have finally realized that backing the Iraq war was not a good choice. What good did it bring? Don\'t give me the whole "Saddam WAS the nuclear weapon" bullshit b/c we all know he had nothing. Osama is still out and about and being the ORIGINAL terrorist who started all the shit it\'s pretty lame that he is even alive. GWB left his little wrath on Afghanistan to pick on Iraq. He rushed it. He probably forgot all about Bin Laden and now Spain pays the price.
If you can read this, you\'re too smart to vote Republican. ;)
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So if you were President you would just sit back and let Iraq take over Kuwait, Iran, and whatever the hell else he had planned? I\'m guessing you wouldn\'t care for his "citizens" that were randomly gassed, just to test out a new chemical.
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This is very crazy considering I\'m 50% Spanish and 50% American (White).
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^ Should I crack up?^
Well, why not. :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:
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Ashford: Ah yes, thank you.
A peice of news..
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&ncid=721&e=4&u=/nm/20040317/wl_nm/security_spain_truce_dc
""Because of this decision, the leadership has decided to stop all operations within the Spanish territories... until we know the intentions of the new government that has promised to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq," the statement said.
"And we repeat this to all the brigades present in European lands: Stop all operations."
Al Qaeda wants truce with Spain? I wonder if its real.
And to make Gigashadow happy, today we made our small effort against the terrorists. SÄPO closed down Hamas website (which glorified suicide bombers and jew hate). ;)
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Originally posted by fastson
And to make Gigashadow happy, today we made our small effort against the terrorists. SÄPO closed down Hamas website (which glorified suicide bombers and jew hate). ;)
Only now?
Anyway, I have my doubts about the truce. It\'s probably coz the cells in Europe are finding it a bit tough to carry out more bombings. Osama once said that he wanted the Andalucea (sp?) Penninsula back in Islamic power as it was in the early 1400\'s. That penninsula is Spain. All of Spain. They could have spread further until they lost a key victory in France (yes, the French actually did play a key role here ;) ). El Cid pretty much drove the Moors out of Spain and back to North Africa.
And just so you guys know.....Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia and the Philippines have had several terrorist bombings and they have no troops at all in Iraq or Afghanistan. Do you really think they care whether Spain, a former Islamic territory, has troops or not in Iraq?
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
I didn\'t really bother to read everysingle word around here but I did come across one of the most ignorant and stupid comments ever made it went something like "anything the terrorist do benefits the anti-bush..."blah blah blah....Wow, pretty gay.
I think Spain is doing the right thing. They are protecting their own ass which is what GWB did with Iraq in the first place. Are they being cowardly and getting the hell out? Yes. Did the terrorist win? Yes. But are they going to keep on putting out their neck for more terrorist attacks in their country. Doesn\'t seem like it.
I also read that most Spaniards didn\'t agree with the war in the first place. Did the Government pay for it? Yes. Just like Blair is paying for his.
To me the Spaniards have finally realized that backing the Iraq war was not a good choice. What good did it bring? Don\'t give me the whole "Saddam WAS the nuclear weapon" bullshit b/c we all know he had nothing. Osama is still out and about and being the ORIGINAL terrorist who started all the shit it\'s pretty lame that he is even alive. GWB left his little wrath on Afghanistan to pick on Iraq. He rushed it. He probably forgot all about Bin Laden and now Spain pays the price.
If you can read this, you\'re too smart to vote Republican. ;)
You sir, are an idiot. This world doesn\'t need appeasers and those that back them. Obviously you don\'t read enough about history to understand that by appeasing a group or country you only open up the door to more concessions. Like I said, it is good to be a Muslim in Spain... a few more bombs and the decendants of the Moor\'s will be invited back into Spain with that line of thinking.
The best way I heard it put is Spain has surrendered in the War on Terrorism. 200 casualties and they are waiving the white flag. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
Only now?
Yes, only now.. Telia (the host/ISP, the same one I have) was not aware of the website.
The dude who uploaded it is living in Stockholm, they might get him on agitation against an ethnic group charges.
EDIT: And now the website has emerged again on a Russian webserver. The guy who uploaded it in stockholm was just renting the space, the people behind the website are students from Lebanon (according to him.)
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With all due respect, GigaShadow, I don\'t think you know what you\'re talking about this time.
I\'m seeing that a lot of people from the US are trying to DECIDE what happened with the elections, instead of asking what happened, maybe influenced by their own internal debate over the 11-S and Bush following decisions.
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Originally posted by Falgarok
With all due respect, GigaShadow, I don\'t think you know what you\'re talking about this time.
I\'m seeing that a lot of people from the US are trying to DECIDE what happened with the elections, instead of asking what happened, maybe influenced by their own internal debate over the 11-S and Bush following decisions.
What is 11-S? Speak English.
If you are trying the say that the Spanish voting a new government in was not a result of the bombings you are sadly mistaken. The new Spanish PM is a wuss and is giving in to Spanish public opinion which sadly thinks appeasing terrorists will save them in the long run. I pity your country and the spineless way it has handled its own tragedy.
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Originally posted by Falgarok
With all due respect, GigaShadow, I don\'t think you know what you\'re talking about this time.
I\'m seeing that a lot of people from the US are trying to DECIDE what happened with the elections, instead of asking what happened, maybe influenced by their own internal debate over the 11-S and Bush following decisions.
I heard Osama will spare Spaniards his wrath. Feeling safe yet?
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
I heard Osama will spare Spaniards his wrath. Feeling safe yet?
The sad thing is I think they do. :rolleyes:
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Giga: Was Polands president a coward when he considered to take his soldiers home?
But then he magically backed down after getting a phone call from Bush.. I wonder what he promised this time. ;)
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Originally posted by fastson
Giga: Was Polands president a coward when he considered to take his soldiers home?
But then he magically backed down after getting a phone call from Bush.. I wonder what he promised this time. ;)
He was misquoted... don\'t believe me... check any news site. Besides Poland wasn\'t attacked... Even France and Germany have not supported Spain\'s new position on Iraq or at the very least have been awful quiet about it. Face it, the decision to pull out of Iraq is wrong and a victory for terrorism - there is no way you can sugar coat it.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
He was misquoted... don\'t believe me... check any news site.
Yeah, thats how it usually sounds when you change your mind. ;)
Speaking to European reporters Thursday Kwasniewski said he still considers Saddam\'s overthrow a good thing for Iraq, but added, "They deceived us about the weapons of mass destruction, that\'s true. We were taken for a ride."
Poland is a staunch ally of the United States in the war on terror, sending 9,000 troops to Iraq. Bush telephoned Kwasniewski following news reports of the statement that the Polish president said reporters had misinterpreted.
Hmm.. ;) Why did he not react directly after the news spread, why did he wait until prez Bush called?
Bush: We will take back all investments!
Aleksander *bendover* Kwasniewski: Wops, I was misquoted.. I promise.. Here a pretzel?
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Your version is completely out of context - by "they" he means the Iraqi\'s. Spin it any way you want fastson, Spain is wrong and deep down you know it.
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Originally posted by fastson
Bush: We will take back all investments!
Aleksander *bendover* Kwasniewski: Wops, I was misquoted.. I promise.. Here a pretzel?
Is that Swedish humor? Must have been lost in the translation. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Is that Swedish humor? Must have been lost in the translation. :rolleyes:
:laughing: ... No! :(
You are no fun. :evil:
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Hey fastson I found some more dirt on Sweden wanna see?
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Hey fastson I found some more dirt on Sweden wanna see?
Ah, I get it.. Your idea of fun? ;)
Let Falgarok respond.
If you want to you can send it via PM, I think the members are pretty tired of hearing about Sweden. :p
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I say let\'s all have a beer when they catch Osama and Iraq is on its own. I\'d beat both yer asses in a game of GT4. With my eyes closed and NO CONTROLLER! That\'s how good I am. :p
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Bleh I am debating the illogical ways of socialism with fastson in PM\'s right now... ;)
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Frankly, GigaShadow, I\'d think that I know better what happened than you do.
Everything is much more complex than you think; I\'ll give you the details, so you can judge for yourself what happened.
The main thing that you have to understand, is that in the last four years our government, has been completely ignoring us after they got a full majority in the past elections.
Apart from many other things (that I\'m not going to list here, but caused a lot of social conflict), they unilaterally decided to support Iraq invasion, despite the fact that more than 90% of the population was against it and there were demonstrations with millions of spaniards in the streets.
Then, last week, AQ attacked four trains full of passengers, most of them students and workers, with the result of more than +200 dead, and +1,500 wounded.
Most people were sad or angry about the attacks, but nothing else. We\'ve been living with terrorist attacks for more than 30 years, and have first hand experience with how terrorists work.
I think that if they had said AQ was responsible for the attacks from the start, and that they were going to do their best to fight against them, most people in Spain would have understood; PP would have lost some votes, but they would have gained some as well from the people who was angry about the attacks; the same thing happened to Bush, and he gained popularity.
But they didn\'t.
The last four days previous to the elections, they were trying to hide information from the citizens about AQ\'s involvement in the terrorist attack (including amazing levels of media manipulation, in fear that it could affect their re-election in some way.
When the details about AQs involvement were leaked into the public opinion a few hours after the attacks, all their strategy backfired, but they kept lying; a lot of spaniards took that as a disrespect for those who had died in the attacks .
Despite that, most people didn\'t change their vote; PP lost about a million voters from the last elections (most of them, before the attacks actually happened), which would have been enough to win this time as well. What changed with the attacks and the following manipulation, is that they gave a reason to vote to a lot of the people who usually don\'t give a damn about elections (mainly young people, who was already fed up with their despotic government).
That new blood the government lies brought into the equation, is what gave the PSOE enough votes to win, not because we feared being attacked. We had already been attacked and knew that we\'re going to be part of AQ\'s list of objectives for years, no matter what. We knew that from the moment our government supported the war, and that didn\'t change last year\'s elections (the PP won).
It\'s not different than if Bush were kicked out of the White House after he lied about the mass destruction weapons. It\'s matter of respect.
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Originally posted by Falgarok
Frankly, GigaShadow, I\'d think that I know better what happened than you do.
Everything is much more complex than you think; I\'ll give you the details, so you can judge for yourself what happened.
The main thing that you have to understand, is that in the last four years our government, has been completely ignoring us after they got a full majority in the past elections.
Apart from many other things (that I\'m not going to list here, but caused a lot of social conflict), they unilaterally decided to support Iraq invasion, despite the fact that more than 90% of the population was against it and there were demonstrations with millions of spaniards in the streets.
Then, last week, AQ attacked four trains full of passengers, most of them students and workers, with the result of more than +200 dead, and +1,500 wounded.
Most people were sad or angry about the attacks, but nothing else. We\'ve been living with terrorist attacks for more than 30 years, and have first hand experience with how terrorists work.
I think that if they had said AQ was responsible for the attacks from the start, and that they were going to do their best to fight against them, most people in Spain would have understood; PP would have lost some votes, but they would have gained some as well from the people who was angry about the attacks; the same thing happened to Bush, and he gained popularity.
But they didn\'t.
The last four days previous to the elections, they were trying to hide information from the citizens about AQ\'s involvement in the terrorist attack (including amazing levels of media manipulation, in fear that it could affect their re-election in some way.
When the details about AQs involvement were leaked into the public opinion a few hours after the attacks, all their strategy backfired, but they kept lying; a lot of spaniards took that as a disrespect for those who had died in the attacks .
Despite that, most people didn\'t change their vote; PP lost about a million voters from the last elections (most of them, before the attacks actually happened), which would have been enough to win this time as well. What changed with the attacks and the following manipulation, is that they gave a reason to vote to a lot of the people who usually don\'t give a damn about elections (mainly young people, who was already fed up with their despotic government).
That new blood the government lies brought into the equation, is what gave the PSOE enough votes to win, not because we feared being attacked. We had already been attacked and knew that we\'re going to be part of AQ\'s list of objectives for years, no matter what. We knew that from the moment our government supported the war, and that didn\'t change last year\'s elections (the PP won).
It\'s not different than if Bush were kicked out of the White House after he lied about the mass destruction weapons. It\'s matter of respect.
How do you know the "PP" lost a million voters from the last election prior to the election... the latest polls prior to the attack had the "PP" with a comfortable lead...
So if no bomb went off prior to the election you are still saying the conservative party would have lost?!?!? Exit poll interviews showed that many people weren\'t even going to vote until the bombing and felt that the previous government brought about the attacks in Madrid by supporting the war in Iraq.
I really don\'t care what party won, but to pull out of war because of fear of attacks is pure cowardace. I have lost much respect for Spain and especially your new PM. He is the most gutless opportunistic politician I have seen of late. If all it takes is 200 deaths for Spain to surrender, the Brits should move north out of Gibraltar and take the rest of Spain. It would only take an artillery shell or two.
:rolleyes:
We suffer an attack 100X worse and did we cower and make deals? What really makes the Spanish look bad is that Spain is the only democratic country in the Western Hemisphere to validate terrorism. Truly sad.
Can someone resurrect Franco? Please?
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No, they (the PP) lost a million voters from previous elections as a whole, but they lost a lot of voters during the electoral campaign; you can easily check that.
Spanish troops being pulled out of Irak has to do with an electoral promise of the PSOE, which was the biggest opposer to the war. They promised that if, after they were elected, the UN were still not supporting the invasion of Irak, they\'d call our troops back.
To tell you the truth, most people don\'t see anything wrong with having our troops there as peace forces. What spaniards don\'t want, is to see our soldiers killing innocent people in the streets in a war that we consider illegal.
And, again, the PSOE won as a result of people being fed up with the lies of the PP, in this four years and, especially, after the attacks, not because we fear to be attacked again.
In fact, we all know that we\'ll be attacked again, and we\'ll be supporting any legitimate measure to fight against the terrorists.
PS: One last thing, asking for Franco to resurrect is like asking for Hitler to resurrect; I don\'t know if you understand what a dictator is.
Even as a joke, is a bit insulting, so can I ask for a little more of respect to a nation\'s history?
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Franco wasn\'t Hitler... that is for sure. Yes, he attacked Communists and leftists in general, but a Hitler he was not.
As for Spanish troops killing innocent civilians... the only way that would happen is by accident - ie. if the Iraqi civilian does something stupid like run a checkpoint. The troops over there are a doing a good job and the latest poll in Iraq showed that most Iraqi\'s think they are better off now then they were a year ago under Saddam.
I don\'t like having our troops thier either, but leaving now will only make things worse.
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I agree.
Now that the bad is done, we can\'t just get out of the country as if nothing ever happened.
The problem now is that PSOE made that demagogic promise when they thought they\'d no chance of winning, and they would be seen as liars if they start backpedalling.
PS: I said Hitler, because they\'re good friends, sorry; but you get the point.
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Did you guys know that it was exactly 911 days between the twin towers attack and the Madrid bombings? :eek:
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They are trying to give it a religious meaning to spread the fear and justify their actions to themselves.
Quite sad, actually.
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i heard poland is pulling out too. wtf?