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Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: GigaShadow on April 06, 2004, 08:00:48 AM
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As is becoming apparent, the people of Iraq don\'t want democracy - actually each group/sect wants completely different things. Some an Islamic state, some a return of the Bathists...
There are those that said we should never have gone in to Iraq and it was all about oil. If that is the case why are gas prices going through the roof? There are some that said it was to liberate the Iraqi people from a ruthless dictator - its been done, but at what price? The country is on the verge of civil war due to the power vacuum. I don\'t think anyone can disagree that Iraq is a better place without Saddam, but how long will it take for things to stabalize if they ever do?
We will soon hit the 1000 mark for American deaths in Iraq and I wouldn\'t be surprised to see it hit 10000 before we eventually leave. Our policy of Iraqi feelings first and American safety second is wrong. The people already hate us and their numbers grow daily. Some of what Kennedy :rolleyes: said is true, though he is one to speak about credibility... This is turning into a Vietnam in the sense that the Iraqi\'s who want freedom don\'t want to work for it - they want the US to do all the work, the fighting and the dying.
Sunni\'s are killing Americans north of Baghdad and the Shiites are rioting in Baghdad and the southern portion of the country. This 30 year old nutbag cleric claims to be a decendant of Mohammed and holes up in the holiest shrine Iraq - we know where he is, yet do nothing.
We can\'t leave and the rest of the world for the most part doesn\'t seem to want to do anything tangible to help. One would think that the western world would put aside their differences and come together to stabilize Iraq and stop playing the game of political one-up-manship.
The western democracies are cooperating in Afghanistan and things are looking brighter there. The Taliban is gone and the Afghans are enthused and motived to better themselves and their country.
This whole post sounds like I have reversed my opinion on the war in general, but I haven\'t. Saddam needed to go and the UN wasn\'t willing to do it. Is this situation any one persons fault? No... but there is plenty of blame to go around:
Saddam for obvious reasons.
The UN for not enforcing its own resolutions.
Bill Clinton (and administration) for not being tough enough to stand up to Saddam.
GWB (and administration) for not having planned the post war strategy out.
Is John Kerry going to solve this headache? You have to be kidding... In all actuality I don\'t think anyone that is currently running has the ability to do so. I think the only solution is a long occupation in an openly hostile country.
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Very awesome post... I agree with you 100% from every single aspect.
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I agree with much of what you wrote regarding the general situation in Iraq right now. However, I disagree with your assumption that John Kerry would be a poor choice to solve the problem.
It seems that lack of international assistance in pacifying / rebuilding Iraq is one of the major problems. Perhaps other foreign governments would be more willing to cooperate in that task if they were asked by an American administration that was not perceived as creating the problem in the first place. I think Kerry would receive a lot more assistance from the world\'s governments that Bush has. His attitude of "we\'ll do whatever we want whether you like it or not" has burned many bridges.
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I disagree - I think Bush could pacify our European allies if he truly wanted to. The problem is I don\'t think he does - yet. I really don\'t see Kerry winning in November - I don\'t know anything that you don\'t - it is just a hunch.
The thing I worry about is if we do get international support - what is to say one of our allies gets bombed again and decides to pull out of Iraq (ie. Spain). I am sure some in Europe are gloating over the fact things are starting to look bad in Iraq and are of the mindset "they made their own bed, now they must lay in it". Political powerplays are not what is needed now in the international community. A situation such as this could easily spill over into other countries such as Iran who has a heavy Shiite population.
I am not saying things that people don\'t already know. We tried to help these people and capture a madman. We definitely succeeded in one objective - but have failed in another. They don\'t want our help.
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I think the White House knows this. Why else would they stick with the June 30 date to turn power over? The people are ready to go to civil war with some many factions with armies.
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excellent post giga,..i agree with most of your post except for some concerning saddam..
the un for not enforcing it\'s own resolutions--i disagree the u.s. can\'t go around policing the world..the u.s. took on iraq for personal reasons (bush) and the american people wanted some action after 911,,..and those in the whitehouse thought it would be a cake walk..
i\'ve already stated the fact that what\'s done is done..the iraq\'s just need to let the u.s. rebulid their country & get out..but the u.s. already burned their bridges imo..bush was incredibly arrogant up to the point of war..he acted like saddam had 10 nukes pointed at america and basicly said f.u.to the international community...yet they say that the hand over of power will resume on june 30...i hope that is not americas way of bailing out...i don\'t think it is..they have no control over the area...even with their high tech weaponry,..the enemy is still succeeding in pulling off aggressive attacks..
trust the american public is not going to be able to stomach huge losses of american lives,..but they\'ll have to,.because there\'s no way the u.s. can leave iraq in the situation it\'s in...and just think for a minute..if foreign soldiers came into the u.s. forcing their policies on you, you\'d fight them back wouldn\'t you?
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And we lost another 12 today. When will we leave? :(
I was against the war
I am against our occupation, its time to go.
I have no real answers, but Im sure the strong will survive in iraq no matter who it is. Even we had to go through a civil war, maybe they have to as well. They are like the 2nd or 3rd largest oil producing country no? Money wont be an issue, just a matter of how and when things get done. We need to leave tho. We have already more than surpassed the death toll of servicemen vs the 1st year of vietnam. Someone did some math on another site we are discussing this on and if this drags out as long as \'nam, we will loose much, much more thaan the 60k we lost then.
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Originally posted by Alliswell
People here have said "Any rational person would want Saddam Hussein removed from power." That is being nearsighted. Millions of people, including Chris Matthews, fear what could come out of this war with Iraq. The events of September 11th were over a few cruise missiles launched on Afghanistan. What do you think this will create? Some guy, forgot his name, was on world news tonight yesterday saying, "If this war drags out, it could create 100 Bin Ladens." It has already created thousands of suicide bombers and increased the hate of America from the Muslim world....
...What I see happening is that U.S./British forces will enter Iraq, and they may take control, but their will be fighting everyday. There will be no peace in the city. Even if they somehow get a government in there, there will be suicide bombings, assassinations and other things that are happening in Afghanistan as we speek. I also see the U.S. attacking other Middle East countries for helping Iraq or some other eason, they may destroy other middle east countries, but they will never fully conqueor them as there will always be fighting there. America will get stuck over there, with tension rising every day. Hijacking of Airplanes will pick up (They already are.) I remember some years ago when everytime you turned around some plane had got hijacked. Those days may come back. Suicide bombers most likely will come to America. Things will happen that will make 9-11 look like nothing. Anti-AMerica/Christian feelings will be stronger then ever in the middle east, whcih will contribute to the bloodshed ......
.....I see this only getting worst in the months/years to come. The fairly tale story of Iraq becoming Democratic and all its problems gone are just that, a fairy tale.
I just hope the find a solution to the constant killings... but it may be near impossible. Just like one said, lose lose situation.... Saddam was a guy who ruled with an iron fist, killing off those who dared rise against him, but, you get rid of him and what do you get? More violence....how do you win? I wish somebody knew, and right now, I don\'t think anybody does know....it just may be impossible for humans...
I wrote that "its a dream to think of Iraq as a Democratic nation" quote to show how foolish it was of Bush to try it, but now, since they are there, I only hope that they can do something about the bloodshed...
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everybody already knows i was against the war,..and i\'m sorry but the bad news will always outshine the good..because their is very little "good progress" goin\' on..the u.s. wants to bring in this muslim shiite that\'s holed up in southern iraq but are afraid to arrest him for fear of it may spark some type of retaliation?..wtf is going on now?
none of this would be happening if we didn\'t go to war in the first place. i highly doubt that by now saddam would have had any wmd\'s even to this day...since saddam is gone you have like at least 3 tribes struggling for power,..and each group has a strong following of supporters in them with weapons...the solution?.send more soldiers?..maybe..it seems we don\'t have enough their to control the situation,..i think early on in the war one of the generals requested something like at least 500,000 to 700,000 troops to secure iraq..that\'s the only solution i see to the u.s. gaining any sort of control.
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i\'ve been doing a little research on this moktada al-sadr,..it seems the u.s. closed down his newspaper stating..it was inciting violence & false reporting..kind of ironic how the u.s. prides itself on freedom of speech yet it shuts down this newspaper that most shiites hold symbolic to them..which led to protests then the viloence that we see today..i don\'t feel that\'s the sole reason for the violence..bit i feel it\'s a part of it.
to me it just shows to a certain extent that the u.s. is losing ground when it comes to solidifying relationships between the iraq\'s and the u.s. i feel most iraqs know why the u.s. are there regardless of how they feel or felt..they must know that the u.s. is there to help them..by the u.s. telling them to rejoice you have freedom of speech or whatever,..then turn around & shut down one of their media is contradictive of the occupation itself..
who knows what else the u.s. is doing behind closed doors...i\'m not saying it\'s bad or good,,i know the u.s. is trying to have the iraq\'s on their side,..but taking stuff away from them and depriving them of certain freedoms (newspaper,media) regardless of what it states about the u.s. can only work against them..
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Originally posted by clips
i\'ve been doing a little research on this moktada al-sadr,..it seems the u.s. closed down his newspaper stating..it was inciting violence & false reporting..kind of ironic how the u.s. prides itself on freedom of speech yet it shuts down this newspaper that most shiites hold symbolic to them..which led to protests then the viloence that we see today..i don\'t feel that\'s the sole reason for the violence..bit i feel it\'s a part of it.
You are kidding right? This guy has been spouting anti US rhetoric since he returned from exile in Iran (of all places). He wouldn\'t have even been allowed to return if it wasn\'t for the US which I find ironic. Tehran indoctrinated him well it seems.
Secondly, an arrest warrant was issued for him because of his involvement in the assasination of another Shiite cleric (mighty holy of him don\'t you think?) - there are also reports that he had a pregnant woman gunned down because she "sped" past his home on the way to deliver. :rolleyes:
All in all, this guy is a common thug and in bed with Iran. His agenda is to set up an Islamic state just like Iran without any secularism what so ever. Also, he is opposed to any constitution in Iraq that doesn\'t involve dominance of Shiites in the government. How can any entity work with someone like this? They can\'t. Even other Shiites (75% in a recent poll) oppose his views.
Iraq is a mess right now, and as the June 30th deadline gets closer more violence is bound to happen as groups compete for power in what will become the "new" Iraq.
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This guy is a Saint :rolleyes:
He might want to get his teeth cleaned.
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yea..i forgot that the sadr cat was wanted for the murder of another...don\'t get me wrong like i\'ve said all along all those tribes just need to sit back let the u.s. rebulid thier country...and everthing will be fine..even tho iwas against the war when i see images of them parading with guns in the air..i\'m like wtf? just chill the f**k out & let a respectable gov\'t be established where all tribes can have a say..
i know it may seem like i\'m back & forth when it comes to the war..but like i said earlier..what\'s done is done..stop fighting and acting like f**kin\' a$$holes & the country will be handed back over to you faster than they know..yea i was against the war..but let\'s be real,.. would these cats be holdin up guns & poppin shit if saddam was in power?..i don\'t think so..saddam would just lobe a couple of missles their way & shut\'em down..
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IMHO we should just pull all of our forces out and let tem fend for themselves and see if they last that long...... too many soldiers have died.....this is becoming Vietnam again!
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Originally posted by KillaX
IMHO we should just pull all of our forces out and let tem fend for themselves and see if they last that long...... too many soldiers have died.....this is becoming Vietnam again!
BINGO!
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I think people are overreacting - it is hardly Vietnam - yet anyway. Some hygiene challenged cleric, his posse and some disgruntled ex Saddam employees hardly make it a "Vietnam".
Too many have died? In Vietnam we lost appx 55,000 - we have lost 600+ here - that is a big difference. I don\'t like seeing casualties, but America has lost its stomach for even a few hundred deaths.
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Originally posted by KillaX
IMHO we should just pull all of our forces out and let tem fend for themselves and see if they last that long...... too many soldiers have died.....this is becoming Vietnam again!
Big PROBLEM , We Can\'t Pull out now... Doing that will cause yet more harm.
Whats needed is for the Reformed Iaqi Army and Police Force to start to take over the "work load" with our backing.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
I think people are overreacting - it is hardly Vietnam - yet anyway. Some hygiene challenged cleric, his posse and some disgruntled ex Saddam employees hardly make it a "Vietnam".
Too many have died? In Vietnam we lost appx 55,000 - we have lost 600+ here - that is a big difference. I don\'t like seeing casualties, but America has lost its stomach for even a few hundred deaths.
Ok you seemt o be missing the point. No one said it was vietnam..there have just been numerous comparisons and its true.
Both wars..we shouldnt have been involved in.
already we have more than surpassed the 1st year of casulties in nam by a couple hundred. No one thought it would last that long and then it got ugly. This has the same potential. Not to mention we didnt have no where near the same technology as we do now and look how our men/women are dying.
Lemme dig up the other info I found on iraq vs. nam.
bblater.
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Originally posted by luckee
already we have more than surpassed the 1st year of casulties in nam by a couple hundred. No one thought it would last that long and then it got ugly. This has the same potential. Not to mention we didnt have no where near the same technology as we do now and look how our men/women are dying.
Lemme dig up the other info I found on iraq vs. nam.
bblater.
That depends on what your source considers the 1st year - since it technically wasn\'t a war. I am not going to argue symantics luckee it was said that this is turning into another Vietnam... not hard to understand is it? READ.
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ughh u know i totally agree with pulling out of Iraq, and as for that being "harmful" well how harmful can that be really, they\'ll all endup killing eachother till none of them is left. (btw thiers no sarcasm here).
the fact is i can undersatand if the ambushes in Iraq were done by the people who actually lost others they cared about during American raids and bombings. but all this is not from them its done by powere hungry "tribes" who really dont give a fu*k about their country or the people, and the worst part the people their are apparently too stupid to realize that :(.
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I wonder what %\'age of Iraq wants the US to leave and how many (secretly) want them to stay and stabilize the country.
I don\'t know how our forces can do it but they need to bleed the rebels\' way of getting resources and break their will somehow. It seems all they want is more bloodshed, not for us to setup a ruling Iraqi government so we can finally leave.
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The whole "setting up" of a government idea is a joke. AP is reporting today that the American security guards who were ambushed an mutilated were actually lured into the ambush by the newly created Iraqi Defense Force. They were promised safe passage through the city and then the road was blocked off and they were killed.
This really isn\'t similiar to Vietnam at all. At least in Vietnam the enemy was united and fought for a cause - in Iraq you have at a minimum three groups struggling for power - the Sunni\'s, the Shiites and the Kurds to a lesser extent.
Burning Japanese journalists alive? In the name of Allah? This might be a good time to test the Neutron bomb.
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As well as the Japanese captives, 6 More people taken hostage (American & Italian)... total up to 9 along with the attack on a supply convoy (killing 9).
The Whole Counrty is going to Hell in a Hand basket ... and where is Mr Blair ?
Holiday till his meeting with President Bush on Thursday.
Also nice to see that Mr Rumsfeld see\'s that there is no need for extra troops depite the Commander in Iraq\'s request for them. :rolleyes:.
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Originally posted by ooseven
The Whole Counrty is going to Hell in a Hand basket ... and where is Mr Blair ?
Holiday till his meeting with President Bush on Thursday.
Also nice to see that Mr Rumsfeld see\'s that there is no need for extra troops depite the Commander in Iraq\'s request for them. :rolleyes:.
I suppose you know of some other British PM who could do a better job given the current situation? At one breath you say we can\'t leave - then you criticize Bush and Blair.
There is no easy answer as to what will work here. You are right - the country is going to hell in a hand basket and turning into a terrorists playground.
Does anyone else think our military is too humane? F the Iraqi\'s IMO. If they holed up in mosque - make the building a crater. Don\'t pause an offensive to let "humanitarian aid" in. These are our weaknesses and our enemies know this all too well.
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Originally posted by luckee
Ok you seemt o be missing the point. No one said it was vietnam..there have just been numerous comparisons and its true.
You can compare any war with Vietnam to be honest.
Both wars..we shouldnt have been involved in.
That\'s your opinion. I personally think that as the super power, we are obligated to keep the peace in the world. But that\'s just me. And don\'t point out that we caused more war because I\'m aware of that. The government and military probably did think that we would be in there briefly and set up a new government but the unexpected happened. And I do think we should have been in Vietnam, given the times. Back then, it was a battle between Communism and Captalism/democracy. So it was in our interests to get as many countries as possible to be democratic and capitalistic and the USSR tried to get as many countries to become communism. If we hadn\'t stepped in, it would have shown that we had given up and more countries could have become communism.
already we have more than surpassed the 1st year of casulties in nam by a couple hundred. No one thought it would last that long and then it got ugly. This has the same potential. Not to mention we didnt have no where near the same technology as we do now and look how our men/women are dying.
This is a war. Do you expect us to go in and not lose any one? Do you expect us to come out with hardly anyone dead? This is a war and people die, some in horrific ways. Lets not also forget that we didn\'t put in our full military force in Vietnam at first. We were more in there for a policing action (again, at first). In Iraq, a lot of our military is there so naturally, more would die. Its like shooting fish in a barrel. Lets say we have 40 fish. We put in 10 in the barrel and put in a fire cracker. A small portion die. Put in all 40 and put in the fire cracker. More would die. There are more in a concentrated location, kind of like our troops in Iraq. I\'m not debating that we can potentially lose as many if not more than Nam and I agree its possible but I feel it is also unlikely.
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How is pulling out now the best idea?
Reminds me of working in a restaurant. People wait 30 minutes of their 45 minute wait then leave. All for what, nothing? I mean they must finish what they started or atleast clean things up a little before they just up in leave.
The best part about all this is crying over the deathcount. How long will people continue to be passive towards everything? This might not be our war but when a country really comes knocking at our door will you continue to cry over soldiers being killed? They enlisted for a reason, to protect and serve our country.
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Originally posted by Bozco
How is pulling out now the best idea?
Reminds me of working in a restaurant. People wait 30 minutes of their 45 minute wait then leave. All for what, nothing? I mean they must finish what they started or atleast clean things up a little before they just up in leave.
Bozco - that has to be the best analogy I have seen a while.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Bozco - that has to be the best analogy I have seen a while.
Another inspirational 4 AM post
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Originally posted by Bozco
How is pulling out now the best idea?
Reminds me of working in a restaurant. People wait 30 minutes of their 45 minute wait then leave. All for what, nothing? I mean they must finish what they started or atleast clean things up a little before they just up in leave.
Beautiful analogy man. Well said. States my point perfectly. And you are 100% right. Pulling out now is the biggest mistake ever. If Kucinich (sp) gets elected and pulls out in 90 days, he will cause more problems than he hopes to solve (which is why I think he\'s a dumbass). I will vote for Bush this election. Why? To finish what he started.
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i stated earlier the u.s. cannot pull out until there is a legitimate gov\'t in place..more troops may be needed to get control..rumsfeld (spell) feels we don\'t need to send more troops..the fact is that we don\'t have more troops to send..oh yeah we can send more troops but if they get killed off the u.s. will be incredibly thin on man power..some in gov\'t feel that they should bring back the draft....
One would think that in this day & age with the technology the u.s. has wars can be won through air with a barrage of missles..even if the missles don\'t destroy the enemy it\'s supposed to have some type of phsycological (spell) effect..when in reality you still need men on the ground to fight & clean the enemy out from houses or ditches or wherever they are hiding out.
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I respectfully disagree. Now is the time to remove our ppl. to avoid more unnecessary deaths. We suppsoedly succeded at any objective we had(they kept changing) and now its time to go. Let them have it out for themselves.
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Originally posted by luckee
I respectfully disagree. Now is the time to remove our ppl. to avoid more unnecessary deaths. We suppsoedly succeded at any objective we had(they kept changing) and now its time to go. Let them have it out for themselves.
Interesting thought... but at this time I still disagree. On that note it is evident that without us there they really would be killing each other.
"The evidence -- Islamic books, pamphlets, tapes and farewell letters in Arabic -- suggested that some of the men were not Iraqis from the area, but foreign Sunni Muslims who had traveled to this urban Sunni stronghold to fight and die in a holy war, both against the U.S. forces and the country\'s Shiite Muslim majority."
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1802&ncid=1802&e=2&u=/washpost/20040412/ts_washpost/a3527_2004apr11
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so let them die instead of us.
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Luckee, isn\'t your location technically So. FL via Chi-town?
Oh yeah, and war sucks.
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i noticed that a long time ago and never bothered to change it for some reason. :D
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Originally posted by Alliswell
Hijacking of Airplanes will pick up (They already are.) I remember some years ago when everytime you turned around some plane had got hijacked. Those days may come back.
Before the US invaded Iraq I knew groups would resort to hijackings of planes to gain leverage in the war, but my prediction was off a bit, they aren\'t hijacking planes but instead are kidnapping soldiers and citizens to try and get what they want. I knew that the Iraqi people know they can\'t out gun America so they would resort to anything necessary...kidnappings., suicide bombings etc
I have no answers on how to get out of the mess the U.S. is in now, that\'s why I disagree with this war.
Saddam killed thousands of his own people? These people were rebels who tried to rise against him. Yes, alot of innocent women and children were killed too, but isn\'t the US killing innocent women and children trying to get to the insurgents? Why are you killing thousands of the people you came to liberate?
Saddam kills thousands to save his kneck. US kills thousands to save its kneck.
Whether the reasons were for good or bad, thousands of the same Iraqi people are being killed.
I just hope those of you who thought Saddam was such a threat to the US that you sleep OK at night now. Don\'t worry Saddam won\'t be sending nukes your way anytime soon
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Originally posted by alliswell
Saddam killed thousands of his own people? These people were rebels who tried to rise against him. Yes, alot of innocent women and children were killed too, but isn\'t the US killing innocent women and children trying to get to the insurgents? Why are you killing thousands of the people you came to liberate?
Saddam kills thousands to save his kneck. US kills thousands to save its kneck.
Whether the reasons were for good or bad, thousands of the same Iraqi people are being killed.
I just hope those of you who thought Saddam was such a threat to the US that you sleep OK at night now. Don\'t worry Saddam won\'t be sending nukes your way anytime soon
Who is this quack? The US killing thousands of "innocent" Iraqi\'s :rolleyes: that is rich. Were do you get your information? Al Jazeera? :rolleyes:
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Hes just trying to save our knecks giga, back off.
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well, its not like we didnt kill alot of the iraqi citizens. Also, how would you know that the number isnt that high?
I doubt it...even still we did it and still do.
That *quack* as you call him...since you dont insult ppl for no reason does however make some valid points.
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Originally posted by ViVi
Hes just trying to save our knecks giga, back off.
;)
If you were tying to be sarcastic you forgot your wink.
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Originally posted by luckee
That *quack* as you call him...since you dont insult ppl for no reason does however make some valid points.
Yeah his claim of us killing thousands of Iraqi\'s is valid. :rolleyes:
I could only wish. The Army should adopt a "if it moves shoot it" policy regarding the heathens that are are Fallujah.
I only insult those who post idiotic posts such as the one above...
He quotes himself like he is some prophet :rolleyes: and the sad part is he is so wrong.
He apparently thinks it was ok for Saddam to slaughter those crack "rebel" troops that were made up of veteran 8 year olds and their nurse maids.
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u are just a hypocrite..face it. you insult anyone you feel above at any given time. This is really here nor there at this time though.
if you were going to quote me, you could have at least quoted all of it. Plus I also said the 1000\'s figure was probably untrue.
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Wah wah... dude you were insulting EVERYONE... there is a difference... Almost everyone throws an insult around every now and then get over it...
You still haven\'t pointed out what was valid in his post. Instead you cry to me that I am a hypocrite for calling someone a quack - that is such a scorching insult at that.
One more thing - GTF out of my post ;)
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Did you know that....?
ATM stands for
Atomic
Toilet
Man
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Originally posted by alliswell
Before the US invaded Iraq I knew groups would resort to hijackings of planes to gain leverage in the war, but my prediction was off a bit, they aren\'t hijacking planes but instead are kidnapping soldiers and citizens to try and get what they want. I knew that the Iraqi people know they can\'t out gun America so they would resort to anything necessary...kidnappings., suicide bombings etc
I have no answers on how to get out of the mess the U.S. is in now, that\'s why I disagree with this war.
Saddam killed thousands of his own people? These people were rebels who tried to rise against him. Yes, alot of innocent women and children were killed too, but isn\'t the US killing innocent women and children trying to get to the insurgents? Why are you killing thousands of the people you came to liberate?
Saddam kills thousands to save his kneck. US kills thousands to save its kneck.
Whether the reasons were for good or bad, thousands of the same Iraqi people are being killed.
I just hope those of you who thought Saddam was such a threat to the US that you sleep OK at night now. Don\'t worry Saddam won\'t be sending nukes your way anytime soon
You are a bit off buddy. What about Saddam testing his chemical and biological weapons on his own citizens? What about innocent people going to the torture chambers to get beaten within an inch of their lives then seeing his daughters and wife get raped by torturers? What about the mass graves of innocent Iraqi men, women and children by the thousands, that died for no reason? Remember Chemical Ali? Saddam\'s brutal sons that killed people for fun? Saddam and his supporters were brutal to their own citizens and needed to be removed.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Wah wah... dude you were insulting EVERYONE... there is a difference... Almost everyone throws an insult around every now and then get over it...
You still haven\'t pointed out what was valid in his post. Instead you cry to me that I am a hypocrite for calling someone a quack - that is such a scorching insult at that.
One more thing - GTF out of my post ;)
hmm..I only insulted you,vivi, and gman. point out the rest.
as for the rest...
Saddam killed thousands of his own people? These people were rebels who tried to rise against him. Yes, alot of innocent women and children were killed too, but isn\'t the US killing innocent women and children trying to get to the insurgents? Why are you killing thousands of the people you came to liberate?
Saddam kills thousands to save his kneck. US kills thousands to save its kneck.-alliswell
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The USA shoudl get the **** out. Let them be, what ever happens is better than letting the usa skullfuk them .
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Originally posted by Toxical
The USA shoudl get the **** out. Let them be, what ever happens is better than letting the usa skullfuk them .
And then the country goes in open civil war. Then the people are murdering eachother. Then an even more brutal dictator will come in and suppress the people more than Saddam did. Yeah pull out right now with all this fighting and factions. Very smart.
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Originally posted by Titan
And then the country goes in open civil war. Then the people are murdering eachother. Then an even more brutal dictator will come in and suppress the people more than Saddam did. Yeah pull out right now with all this fighting and factions. Very smart.
I don\'t see a difference, either the USA kills them or they kill each other.
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Then we get even more hated by the world. Thats smart. Pull out and the rest of the world thinks we\'re even more assholes than we really are. We go in, kick out a leader and when things get hard, we get up and leave. I say we stay in as long as it takes.
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Originally posted by Titan
Then we get even more hated by the world. Thats smart. Pull out and the rest of the world thinks we\'re even more assholes than we really are. We go in, kick out a leader and when things get hard, we get up and leave. I say we stay in as long as it takes.
Do you think the USA can be hated anymore than it is now? It can only get better ;) The wolrd things the USA is on a power-trip... and i think the wolrd is right, give me some of those freedom-fries...ahh forget it, i want "French-Fries"
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Originally posted by Toxical
Do you think the USA can be hated anymore than it is now? It can only get better ;) The wolrd things the USA is on a power-trip... and i think the wolrd is right, give me some of those freedom-fries...ahh forget it, i want "French-Fries"
I have yet to see any restaurant selling freedom fries... Power trip? Are you forgetting what happened almost 3 years ago? You were only 11 then so I guess you can\'t remember... :rolleyes:
In my opinion we have every right to attack any country, group or person that poses a threat to the United States if it will prevent them from either attacking or helping plan attacks on the US. The UN will not dictate our National Security policies, nor will France. What other countries see as a power trip is nothing less than the US retaliating for largest attack on American soil since Pearl Harbor.
Don\'t kid yourself - we are at war and will be for some time thanks to Islamic fundamentalism.
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Yeah, Toxical, Giga, stop the personal attacks, both of you. Especially you Toxical. This forum is here to debate the issues, not attack eachother. I took out the personal insults...keep them out.
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Thanks to the dirty fingers of the American government you can be sure we are in this for the long run ;)
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Originally posted by shockwaves
Yeah, Toxical, Giga, stop the personal attacks, both of you. Especially you Toxical. This forum is here to debate the issues, not attack eachother. I took out the personal insults...keep them out.
Yeah well, i don\'t have to insult him, if he stops insulting me,
that kid insulted me first. ;) so i let him have some of his own medicine
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Dude, for the last time he isn\'t a kid. He\'s twice the age of me and I\'m 17.
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Toxical, honestly, no. You were the instegator, and you went much further than he did. Just stop and he will. Keep it civil, and if he\'s insulting you, tell me instead of flaming him. And also, trust me, you come off looking a lot worse than he does.
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I\'m no rat, i\'m not gonna rat on him if he is flamming me. ;)
i would never tell on him. I"m a patriot ;) unlike someone on this board. :P
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Well if you call me instigator i might as well "ban" myself from this forum for a year or so, no point in beating up on that guy, since he can\'t help being what he is. Nite all.
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Originally posted by Toxical
Well if you call me instigator i might as well "ban" myself from this forum for a year or so, no point in beating up on that guy, since he can\'t help being what he is. Nite all.
Go for it. I\'m calling your bluff.
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Flaming back destroys the boards, and I\'m not gonna let you just do that. And none of these problems were happening til you showed up. You can stay, and that\'s fine, just keep a cool head.
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You got to give the kid some credit. He did liven up the place for a bit, even if it was ignorant drivel.
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*bump*....ahhhh good times...everybody got in on the action in this one...and Giga takes on the world...:p
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This thread is old. I was still in high school (junior). What\'s weird is I still remember this thread. I thought when I was reading the posts between me and Toxical, I thought it was newer than that. Weird. I swear (rather felt like) it was only a couple months ago.
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The only thread thread that is allowed to be resurrected - that I know of - is racer\'s homoerotic encounter in the shower confession.
However, I revise my original statement - we are there for the oil. Not free or cheap oil, but access to a limited resource that will eventually run out. Why don\'t we drill in Alaska or National Parks? Does anyone really think a bunch of tree huggers could stop our government or oil companies from tapping those reserves? No... our goal is to suck that part of the world dry and then use what we have.
Not that I am against that policy, since if there was nothing but sand in that part of the world no one would give a rat\'s ass what they do to each other.
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I say the third world war will be in that part of the world.
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i was going to start a new thread, but figured i\'d just put this in here....everytime i read something comin\' out of iraq, it always has an air of gloom with it....now insurgents are using dirty bombs, but on a whole other level...now i fear that this will lead to more destructive tactics concerning chemical weapons,...remember how we feared saddam would use chemical weapons?....whelp thanks to bush & co. this is slowly starting to become a reality....i\'m sorry, say what you want, but this thing just continues to get worse, and you mean to tell me iraq was more dangerous with saddam in control?...the u.s. is gonna be feelin\' this one for years to come. oh and the british are also pullin\' out by the end of the year....soon the u.s. will have no one left to uphold the title "the coalition of the willing"...read
http://www.yahoo.com/s/135782/*http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070222/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
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im still hoping to make it through my lifetime without a chemical bomb or a nuke...
the war isnt making it worse btw. If a terrorist group is/was going to hit us with a chemical weapon, theyd do it with or without saddam in there. And theyd be using it on their own land like this as well.
Just because we went in doesnt mean they just all of a sudden thought "hey..lets add chlorine"
Im personally glad the UK is leaving..might help get the complacency of waiting till the iraqis do something/for the next president to deal with it out of the white house
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im still hoping to make it through my lifetime without a chemical bomb or a nuke...
the war isnt making it worse btw. If a terrorist group is/was going to hit us with a chemical weapon, theyd do it with or without saddam in there. And theyd be using it on their own land like this as well.
Just because we went in doesnt mean they just all of a sudden thought "hey..lets add chlorine"
Im personally glad the UK is leaving..might help get the complacency of waiting till the iraqis do something/for the next president to deal with it out of the white house
i agree...but i didn\'t say that this war was making our situation at home worse..i meant this iraq war in general just continues to become worse. i think at this point you just have to let the pieces fall where they may,..look at palestine..nobody ever thought in a million years that hamas or abbas *whatever it is* would\'ve been voted into gov\'t, yet they are and at some point the u.s. and israel are going to have to deal them, as in iraq, whoever ultimately gains control of the gov\'t, the u.s. in some shape or form are going to have to deal with them, whether they like it or not....which ultimately i\'m sure will put a dent in their idea over any deal they might\'ve been postering about concerning oil.
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Yes. Yes it is.
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We won\'t even need their oil if we have an alternate fuel. Let them kill each other.
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We won\'t even need their oil if we have an alternate fuel. Let them kill each other.
we dont dont need their oil (notice the double negative..we dont necessarily NEED their oil). A widely used alternative fuel isnt going to just pop out of the sky. And its probably going to be more expensive.
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I say the third world war will be in that part of the world.
You sir are a genius!
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we dont dont need their oil (notice the double negative..we dont necessarily NEED their oil). A widely used alternative fuel isnt going to just pop out of the sky. And its probably going to be more expensive.
Agreed. The cheapest is ethanol. Its cheap to produce and car manufacturers really don\'t have to convert too their engines over. They just have to change corrosive materials in their engines, such as fuel lines and I think cylinder gaskets or something. Right now, its comparable to gasoline. Plus, flex-fuel engines are in almost all new American cars, even if you don\'t know it. I say in like 10-20 years, most people will be using E85 or E100.
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We won\'t even need their oil if we have an alternate fuel. Let them kill each other.
at this point i don\'t think it\'s about the oil anymore...i do believe that they thought it was a nice incentive goin\' in, but now? it\'s all about security...as much as people want the soldiers to come home, the reality is that they can\'t, if these people are blowin\' up s**t while we are there now, just imagine the chaos that will happen if we left? the u.s. created a situation far worse than when saddam was in power...so now basically the u.s. have to stay in that area for almost forever....and those that say iraq was worse when saddam was in power is just dead wrong...he may have ruled with an iron fist, but at least the people wasn\'t wildin\' the way they are now....billions of dollars are bein spent on this war and the prez is currently cuttin all kinds of programs to try and fund this thing....i don\'t care how rich the u.s. supposedly is,...sooner or later there\'s going to be a breaking point...militarily and financially.
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What sucks is most of the terrorists aren\'t even Iraqis.
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y\'know reading info from iraq on a daily basis can really be depressing....and all fingers point to bush for this unforgiving scenario....but just take a look at the pics on the side of this article...it shows iraqi\'s celebrating and holding up the helmets of british soldiers that were killed in a roadside bomb....i know that there are some iraqi\'s that really do want us there for security, and even tho i don\'t think we should\'ve gone in from the jump, when i see s**t like that, i think we should just leave and let them fend for themselves...
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/04/06/iraq.main/index.html
and those polititians that are goin\' over there and talking about how it\'s getting better *John Mccain*....:rolleyes:....they are living in a f**kin dreamworld...Mccain had over 100 soldiers around him and in the vicinity around him and like 5 helicopters flying overhead......yeah things are gettin\' better alright...:thumb:...........:rolleyes: