PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => PS3 Discussion => Topic started by: Bossieman on April 12, 2004, 07:17:27 AM
-
Just klick here (http://www.bonusstage.com/media/mgs3_snakeeater/mgs3_camouflage_j.wmv)
Cool or what?
-
it better be ;)
*download in progress*
-
YES!!! the ending of it is the best!!!!!!!! Alligator!!!!!
-
Yeah, it\'s definitely a great example of some of the aspects of the gameplay.
-
The File is 20.9 meg... just in case all you fellow 56kers are wondering.
-
Ok, I kind of understand what kind of game creation Mr. Kojima is trying to achieve with MGS3 and I think it totally ROCKS :thepimp:
BUT....
from what i can see in that particular trailer brings up these concerns, imho ;
* the controls : still NO analogue controls ? yes, i know MGS2 already with the analogue controlstick but it still is either WALK or RUN. MGS3 seems to have the same steps with the extra \'step\' of STALKWALK (maybe by stick together with circle button). I had kind of expected total anaologue speeding up/down like in Splinter Cell ; Xbox version.
* the visual credibility of the camouflage : Alot of the times in the trailer the camo index says 100%, the guard doesn\'t notice \'Snake\' but I can still see him perfectly. C\'mon Kojima, if he\'s supposed to look \'invisible\' he\'d better be tough to see to my own eyes. It\'ll make it at least credible for my game expierence and tougher to estimate if it\'s safe to move in close proximity of guards ; which will only benefit the difficulty level.
* the timing of the transparancy effect ; a transparancy effect is being used on trees which object camera view. But, the timing seems quite off in that trailer...a tree needs to be transparant exactly when a Snake is behind it... not when he\'s already past it or not yet passing it, like the trailer evidently shows... They need to tighten this up.
So, imo Konami still needs to do alot of work on MGS3. I already got flamed alot for venting such concerns on other boards, but i hope you can understand them.
-
Originally posted by Knotter8
Ok, I kind of understand what kind of game creation Mr. Kojima is trying to achieve with MGS3 and I think it totally ROCKS :thepimp:
BUT....
from what i can see in that particular trailer brings up these concerns, imho ;
* the controls : still NO analogue controls ? yes, i know MGS2 already with the analogue controlstick but it still is either WALK or RUN. MGS3 seems to have the same steps with the extra \'step\' of STALKWALK (maybe by stick together with circle button). I had kind of expected total anaologue speeding up/down like in Splinter Cell ; Xbox version.
* the visual credibility of the camouflage : Alot of the times in the trailer the camo index says 100%, the guard doesn\'t notice \'Snake\' but I can still see him perfectly. C\'mon Kojima, if he\'s supposed to look \'invisible\' he\'d better be tough to see to my own eyes. It\'ll make it at least credible for my game expierence and tougher to estimate if it\'s safe to move in close proximity of guards ; which will only benefit the difficulty level.
* the timing of the transparancy effect ; a transparancy effect is being used on trees which object camera view. But, the timing seems quite off in that trailer...a tree needs to be transparant exactly when a Snake is behind it... not when he\'s already past it or not yet passing it, like the trailer evidently shows... They need to tighten this up.
So, imo Konami still needs to do alot of work on MGS3. I already got flamed alot for venting such concerns on other boards, but i hope you can understand them.
You DO... Realise that its still work in Progress do you?
Anyway on a side note.
Got the latest PSM2 magazine (UK)
And they have a 2 page feature on MGS3..
From the Looks of things Mr Hideo is going to launch a competition (like the Dog tag one for MGS2).
But this one will be to design a new camouflage for Snake.
it will be Formally announced at E3.
-
* the controls : still NO analogue controls ? yes, i know MGS2 already with the analogue controlstick but it still is either WALK or RUN. MGS3 seems to have the same steps with the extra \'step\' of STALKWALK (maybe by stick together with circle button). I had kind of expected total anaologue speeding up/down like in Splinter Cell ; Xbox version.
Why is that necessary? How many degrees of movement speed do you really need in a game like this? When would Snake ever need to jog as opposed to run? The noise being made is the same after all is said and done.
* the visual credibility of the camouflage : Alot of the times in the trailer the camo index says 100%, the guard doesn\'t notice \'Snake\' but I can still see him perfectly. C\'mon Kojima, if he\'s supposed to look \'invisible\' he\'d better be tough to see to my own eyes. It\'ll make it at least credible for my game expierence and tougher to estimate if it\'s safe to move in close proximity of guards ; which will only benefit the difficulty level.
The problem with this is that if the player can\'t see Snake at all, then that detracts from the game. We realize you want things to be as realistic as possible, but Kojima is about making good games, plain and simple. Making Snake visible to the player is a gaming choice, not an atmospheric one.
-
Originally posted by Ryu
The problem with this is that if the player can\'t see Snake at all, then that detracts from the game. We realize you want things to be as realistic as possible, but Kojima is about making good games, plain and simple. Making Snake visible to the player is a gaming choice, not an atmospheric one.
Exactly … this is a problem highlited in Splinter Cell.
How to find Sam when all the lights are out?
Simple you give him a Glow in the Dark light on his back that only the Player can see. Simple and very effective.
-
Originally posted by Ryu
The problem with this is that if the player can\'t see Snake at all, then that detracts from the game. We realize you want things to be as realistic as possible, but Kojima is about making good games, plain and simple. Making Snake visible to the player is a gaming choice, not an atmospheric one.
Snake doesn\'t have to become completely invisible, just harder to spot. And if someone is playing the game, then he\'s going to be able to see Snake easily even if he is a little harder to spot. It would just be stupid to have Snake stand out and yet the guards can\'t see him.
It\'s just a matter of adjusting the camouflage system so I think they\'ll have it fixed before release.
-
There are going to be plenty of instances due to the position of the camera where Snake is totaly obscured and there are instances in the video where this occurs as well. If they make him really hard to spot like they did with the guards then the game would become tough to really get through as you\'ll spend more time searching for the character then actually concentrating on the position of the guards.
You have to admit, it\'s a lot better then having Snake against a wall and a guard simply runs by him not noticing his presence which does happen a lot in the other two 3D parts of the series.
-
Originally posted by Ryu
There are going to be plenty of instances due to the position of the camera where Snake is totaly obscured and there are instances in the video where this occurs as well. If they make him really hard to spot like they did with the guards then the game would become tough to really get through as you\'ll spend more time searching for the character then actually concentrating on the position of the guards.
You have to admit, it\'s a lot better then having Snake against a wall and a guard simply runs by him not noticing his presence which does happen a lot in the other two 3D parts of the series.
yea i agree..having snake recognizable to the the player outweighs him being able to see him just barely...if that was done then you same people would be complaining about it.
-
Originally posted by Ryu
There are going to be plenty of instances due to the position of the camera where Snake is totaly obscured and there are instances in the video where this occurs as well. If they make him really hard to spot like they did with the guards then the game would become tough to really get through as you\'ll spend more time searching for the character then actually concentrating on the position of the guards.
You have to admit, it\'s a lot better then having Snake against a wall and a guard simply runs by him not noticing his presence which does happen a lot in the other two 3D parts of the series.
But still, even if Snake did blend in really well, and there were objects obscuring the camera\'s view, he would not be hard to spot, at least not for the person playing the game. He\'s playing the game, he knows in what direction Snake was moving and he should pretty much know where he is, unless he\'s blind of course. I\'m not saying you should make Snake nearly invisible when he\'s at 100% camouflage, just that he should blend a bit better into his surroundings. Trust me, even if he was nearly invisible (think something along the lines of 10% opacity) he would not be hard to spot for the person playing the game.
There were a few moments in the video where Snake blended in really well when 100%, and was still easy to spot. All I want is for all the time Snake is at 100% camouflage that he\'s as hard to spot as when he blended the best in that camo trailer.
-
That movie was a good 5 minutes longer than it needed to be.
-
All I want is for all the time Snake is at 100% camouflage that he\'s as hard to spot as when he blended the best in that camo trailer.
So a lot of times it looks great and a lot of times it\'s really obvious -- but at the same time, you use the argument that since the player knows where he\'s moving the character, he\'s easily seen as it is. Doesn\'t that make the opinion a bit biased? I mean, think of it in terms of the film Predator with Arnold Scwarzenegger.
In that film, Arnold and all of his teammates were easily seen by the predator even through dense jungle while wearing camouflage due to the Predator\'s heat vision. However, at the end of the film, Arnold discovered that a substance as simple as mud obscured the vision of the Predator even though Arnold was right in front of him plain as day. It was obvious to the audience, since we knew what to look for, but not so much for the Predator.
The point is, even though we, as the players, can see Snake plain as day and he may not mesh well to us, we are the ones who know what to look for and where to look. However, the important thing is that the guards are fooled and can\'t see him and that\'s the whole object of the game.
I find it kind of silly now though that people complain that we can see Snake when he\'s wearing camouflage, but never complained about Snake being obviously seen when pressed against a wall with a guard running by.
-
Originally posted by Black Samurai
That movie was a good 5 minutes longer than it needed to be.
Amen........
-
Originally posted by Ryu
However, the important thing is that the guards are fooled and can\'t see him and that\'s the whole object of the game.
I find it kind of silly now though that people complain that we can see Snake when he\'s wearing camouflage, but never complained about Snake being obviously seen when pressed against a wall with a guard running by.
^No, it\'s not silly. Kojima is officially putting this in as a core game mechanic ; going undetected by a visual feat was NOT a core game mechanic in MGS1 nor MGS2.
The intention of having a camo index in MGS3 is good - but the result, as of now, is still half assed. They really need to tweak n tighten this up.
What would be the shame for Kojima to admit that they need to work on the camo system some more ? Non. Everybody in this world still has a thing or 2 to learn ; there\'s no shame in it for him to say in press interviews they need to tweak it. Right now, the camo mostly looks like an office clerk with a beard-and-red hat disguise who says "Look ! REALLY I AM the REAL SANTA !"
C\'mon, we\'re past the 8 bit era where a game sign \'tells\' me i\'m \'invisible\' just by desaturation of a few pixels. I say ; Convince me, cuz I\'m not convinced, just becuz you SAY (the game \'sign\')
Snake\'s invisible. Try harder. Show Off those PS2 coding skills of your team, Kojima !
* edit ; now.... i know that being 100% invisible would be exactly the opposite of really REALISTIC, but it\'s just that I as a gamer ; I want to see a convincing visual effect if he wants to \'sell\' the camo index game mechanic to me. Maybe they could throw in a slide bar so we can adjust the \'strength\' of the visual effect.
Also, the trailer has parts in it where the camo index only says 20 % while he\'s not that obvious to sight, while at another point it says 85 % and to my eyes he\'s better visible than at that particular moment I described before with the mere 20 % index.
This is definately proof that MGS3 is still a work-in-progress game ; no shame in that though.
-
A lot of the time Snake\'s camo was at 100% in the trailer I was happy with it, but sometimes it was too obvious. All I ask for is for them to tweak the system a bit so that if Snake\'s camo is at 100% he isn\'t glaringly obvious like in a few examples in the trailer.
And btw, Ryu, you said this was an atmosphere thing, but what was important was gameplay. That\'s true, gameplay is always the most important, but don\'t forget what game this is. Atmosphere is a HUGE part of the series.
Originally posted by Knotter8
Try harder. Show Off those PS2 coding skills of your team, Kojima !
Actually this problem has got almost everything to do with textures. They just need to tweak the camouflage and environment textures a bit.