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Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: ooseven on April 30, 2004, 02:10:31 AM
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US acts after Iraq prisoner abuse
A US military investigation has recommended disciplinary action against several of its officers for the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US troops.
Brigadier General Janice Karpinski is among seven officers being investigated following claims that soldiers under their command mistreated detainees.
The officers have already been suspended from duty.
A US TV channel showed pictures of US soldiers humiliating naked hooded prisoners at Baghdad\'s Abu Ghraib jail.
CBS TV says it has "dozens" of pictures showing a wide range of maltreatment. Taken by US troops, many of the pictures from Abu Ghraib, outside Baghdad, show American troops watching in apparent approval.
The US military says it is appalled by the behaviour of its soldiers, but insists this is an isolated case.
However, the fact that Americans may have humiliated Iraqis in the very prison where Saddam Hussein\'s regime tortured inmates will be badly received not only in Iraq, but across the region, says the BBC\'s Ian Pannell in Washington
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3672117.stm
Yup...Sure looks like we are fighting the good fight to rebuild the country :rolleyes:
It Now looks like one of the soldiers facing court martial has come out and said
“we didn’t receive training in the handling of prisoners !”
:rolleyes:
Like staking your prisoners in a naked pyramid is ok :rolleyes:
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****Update****
The pictures, which were obtained by an American TV network, also show a dog attacking a prisoner and other inmates being forced to simulate sex with each other. It is thought the abuses took place in November and December last year.
The pictures from Abu Ghraib prison have shocked the US army.
Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations for the US military in Iraq, expressed his embarrassment and regret for what had happened. He told the CBS current affairs programme 60 Minutes II: "If we can\'t hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can\'t ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Gen Kimmitt said the investigation began in January when an American soldier reported the abuse and turned over evidence that included photographs. "That soldier said: \'There are some things going on here that I can\'t live with\'."
The inquiry had centred on the 800th Brigade which is based in Uniondale, New York.
The US army confirmed that the general in charge of Abu Ghraib jail is facing disciplinary measures and that six low-ranking soldiers have been charged with abusing and sexually humiliating detainees.
Lawyers for the soldiers argue they are being made scapegoats for a rogue military prison system in which mercenaries give orders without legal accountability.
A military report into the Abu Ghraib case - parts of which were made available to the Guardian - makes it clear that private contractors were supervising interrogations in the prison, which was notorious for torture and executions under Saddam Hussein.
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Example of one of the released pictures.
Apparently there are 12 RELEASED pictures but according to newreports on the BBC and other sources... many more have been held back due to their graphic nature.
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Sad news to hear. That pic doesn\'t tell me anything at all but from the sounds of the article the soldiers should be reprimanded.
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That was the only picture i could of posted here (due to nudeity).
The others Feature
Naked Iraqi prisoner(s) being "taunted" by Male & Female Soldiers and a sexual manner.
So it doesn\'t take a rocket Scientist to work out that in some of the pictures…
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- Sexual nature of the photographs
= will be like pouring liquid paraffin on a bonfire to the Muslim world.
From the reports I have both read and watched (on TV) this news story missed todays issues of the leading Muslim papers due to the time difference when the show went out on CBS in America.
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I knew this topic would pop up here... Frankly this is nothing worse than fraternity hazing. I found it humerous - making them get in a human pyramid!?! At least these jerks aren\'t going to be killed and mutilated on camera - funny how this is making more of a stir than the Italian hostage that was killed on camera. Some people need to get a sense of humor. The only "graphic" nature was the nudity - I like how they make it sound like we were drilling their hands with a Dewalt power drill.
Should the soldiers who did this be disciplined? Absolutely. Is the press making way too big of an issue over this? Definitely.
As for putting the prisoners in Saddams old jails - I think it poetic justice considering most of these are probably ex Saddam henchmen who sent people to those "torture chambers".
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
At least these jerks aren\'t going to be killed and mutilated on camera - funny how this is making more of a stir than the Italian hostage that was killed on camera.
The problem is that we are ment to be a Liberating force , and our goal should be to prove to the Iraqi People that we will not put them through that same treatment that Saddam did.
The actions that our forces take shape the rebuilding of the country, so just say...
"At least these jerks aren\'t going to be killed and mutilated on camera "
Excuses the actions and makes us NO BETTER THAN the insurgence fighters that killed the Italian hostage.
Originally posted by GigaShadow
The only "graphic" nature was the nudity
So the stacking of naked captives with soldiers assuming sexual posies isn’t graphic…
Are you willing to put that theory to the test post something like that in Off Topic… Good Luck with that :rolleyes
Originally posted by GigaShadow
I like how they make it sound like we were drilling their hands with a Dewalt power drill.
You do rrealise that physiological torture is just as bad as physical torture. remember what we are seeing in these pictures is only the half of it.
We don\'t know what they did to force the captives to “poise” for these photographs.
Originally posted by GigaShadow
Should the soldiers who did this be disciplined? Absolutely. Is the press making way to big of an issue over this? Definitely.
Glad we agree on on thing...But the important point is that some of the people involved are Civilian security operatives (employees of TITAN), and as a result may escape prosecution.
Due to the reason that what they did might be against American Law (mistreatment of prisoners) they can escape due to the fact that there is no such law to prosecute them in Iraqi law (which is as we speak is still to be drafted).
How on earth do you court martial a private contractor.
Originally posted by GigaShadow
As for putting the prisoners in Saddams old jails - I think it poetic justice considering most of these are probably ex Saddam henchmen who sent people to those "torture chambers".
Altough most of the prisoners are "suspected" Insurgence fighters, the fact is that most of the prisoners are members of the former Iraqi Army (captured during the invasion).
Many have not be put through a trail or have they had evidence presented against them (so some... and I do say Some might be innocent).
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Originally posted by ooseven
The problem is that we are ment to be a Liberating force , and our goal should be to prove to the Iraqi People that we will not put them through that same treatment that Saddam did.
If you really equate the pranks of college age kids with the torture and murder performed by a dictator then there is no hope for you.
Lambda Lambda Lambda = Third Reich?
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so forcing captives to strip for your amusment = college prank ?
ok nice one
Esp.. when you consider the captives are Muslims and this act go\'s against everything the value...
i mean how did they persuade them to do it.
Hold a Keg party ? :rolleyes:
Slip Drugs into their Drinks ? :rolleyes:
Say to them they would spread gossip about them about College ? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by ooseven
The problem is that we are ment to be a Liberating force , and our goal should be to prove to the Iraqi People that we will not put them through that same treatment that Saddam did.
The actions that our forces take shape the rebuilding of the country, so just say...
"At least these jerks aren\'t going to be killed and mutilated on camera "
Excuses the actions and makes us NO BETTER THAN the insurgence fighters that killed the Italian hostage.
Let us be frank about this whole issue and our popularity in Iraq or lack there of. In a recent Gallup poll 6 out 10 Iraqi\'s want us to leave the country in the next 3 months, yet 7 out of 10 feel we haven\'t done enough to secure the country. Roughly the same number say they won\'t assist coalition troops for fear of reprisals from fellow Iraqi\'s. What is the point of all of this? The Iraqi\'s have too high of expectations especially since they aren\'t willing to lift a finger to assist in the "security" of their country.
Again, the media is making a big deal over nothing. CBS (and Dan Rather) are very anti Bush and were more than happy to publicize reports of abuse, but do they realize by making a mountain out of this molehill, they are putting US and British soldiers lives in jeopardy by inflaming an already tense situation?
Originally posted by ooseven
So the stacking of naked captives with soldiers assuming sexual posies isn’t graphic…
Are you willing to put that theory to the test post something like that in Off Topic… Good Luck with that :rolleyes
You do rrealise that physiological torture is just as bad as physical torture. remember what we are seeing in these pictures is only the half of it.
We don\'t know what they did to force the captives to “poise” for these photographs.
The key word here is "assuming". They weren\'t commiting sexual acts. I agree it is wrong, but it is totally blown out of proportion. These people cry abuse, yet have commited some of the worse atrocities in modern times. Physical torture is much worse IMO, while both can leave perminant damage - the stuff shown in those pictures is not of that nature. As for the stuff we didn\'t see? Making them listen to loud music? You think that is torture?
A few bad apples cause this much uproar from the liberal left - amazing. Maybe you should read about the Bravo Two Zero Mission conducted by the Australian SAS during the 1st Gulf War and see how the Iraqi\'s treated their prisoners. It makes this current issue same pale in comparison.
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Originally posted by ooseven
so forcing captives to strip for your amusment = college prank ?
ok nice one
Esp.. when you consider the captives are Muslims and this act go\'s against everything the value...
i mean how did they persuade them to do it.
Hold a Keg party ? :rolleyes:
Slip Drugs into their Drinks ? :rolleyes:
Say to them they would spread gossip about them about College ? :rolleyes:
When I was in a fraternity in college, much worse was done to the pledges than what those wimps went through.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Again, the media is making a big deal over nothing. CBS (and Dan Rather) are very anti Bush and were more than happy to publicize reports of abuse, but do they realize by making a mountain out of this molehill, they are putting US and British soldiers lives in jeopardy by inflaming an already tense situation?
. [/B]
The problem is CBS isn\'t the only source of this incident and according to the many sources over here in the UK there is more to come (it isn’t the only at this one Prison to have such “problems”).
The REAL problem is how the Arab world views these pictures and how they REACT.
Yes your right this story can put the lives of the Front line troops both UK and US in jeopardy, but the real culprits are the people who took the pictures in the first place and what so ironic is you fail to see that they will probably never suffer the REAL consequences.
Are they going to be in the Physical Firing line ?…
NO most likely they are on their way out of Iraq to face an enquiry or even questioning (soon).
Is their life at risk because of the reaction stirred up by these images on the Iraqi Streets ?
NO apparently the pictures where passed around, and it was only until one solider who was disturbed by the images reported it to his commanding officer. And Seeing that the people involved are either Military police or Civilian contractors ..I doubt very much you would see them run the risk that the front line forces could FACE.
Did the people Who took the images even think of the sensitive nature of the Region ?
NO…It’s a bit obvious that these images where for their own personal enjoyment taken months ago they have been with held due to the potential outrage they would cause.
Did the Commander at the Prison take due care for her service men and women & the captives
NO.. In fact the reports state that the civilian contractors where not only allowed full access but where instigators for most of these acts. Reports that the prison requested support and direction have been dismissed by experts as a vain attempt of an apology.
The Real culprits are the 14 or so people involved (we don’t know an exact number due to security reasons).
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
When I was in a fraternity in college, much worse was done to the pledges than what those wimps went through.
your still not getting this...
If your a devout Muslim this would be the last thing you would agree to even if forced.
We are not talking about a stupid College Frat party.
like i said it Beg\'s the question... what as done to get them to do it.
was it Physical ?
Beatings and other forms or excessive force ?
or Was is Physiological ?
example…where they told that they would be buried wrapped in pork & Bacon, which is a considered a one of the ultimate desecration’s in Islam .
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
When I was in a fraternity in college, much worse was done to the pledges than what those wimps went through.
It is true that this conduct is much less offensive that the REAL torture conducted by Iraqis before and during the war. However, I\'d be willing to bet that Iraqi civilians, and most others in the Arab world have no idea what a fraternity hazing is. The concept is probably completely unknown to them. I think it is overly optimistic to expect them to recognize the distinction. Therefore this conduct, and the reports of it will be very dangerous to our soldiers and our whole mission there.
You can blame the messenger, and say it was "blown out of proportion..." but how could you expect it NOT to be reported? If not CBS, then certainly an English newspaper, Al Jezeera, or SOMEONE would have gotten wind of it some time. It\'s crazy to blame a news outlet for not sitting on a story. That\'s the society we live in, man. Everyone knows that these things get out sooner or later.
The real question is how did this happen? What the hell happened to the chain of command? Someone wasn\'t paying attention and properly overseeing these contractors or whoever they are. This may be little worse than a hazing, but the unfortunate reality is that\'s not good enough. With the biases that are held against us in the Middle East, we need to be FLAWLESS in their eyes.
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Originally posted by ooseven
your still not getting this...
If your a devout Muslim this would be the last thing you would agree to even if forced.
We are not talking about a stupid College Frat party.
like i said it Beg\'s the question... what as done to get them to do it.
was it Physical ?
Beatings and other forms or excessive force ?
or Was is Physiological ?
example…where they told that they would be buried wrapped in pork & Bacon, which is a considered a one of the ultimate desecration’s in Islam .
These same people of Islamic faith have no regard for life... please don\'t preach about how it desecrates their religion. Why should we respect their religion when they can\'t even respect the value of human life? It is that kind of double standard that the media and the Islamic fundamentalists exploit is it not? The same type of behavior that allows them to hole up in mosques and shoot at our troops. :mad:
Secondly, you are confusing "hazing" with a "party" - believe me when I say hazing is no party. ;)
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Originally posted by Coredweller
The real question is how did this happen? What the hell happened to the chain of command? Someone wasn\'t paying attention and properly overseeing these contractors or whoever they are. This may be little worse than a hazing, but the unfortunate reality is that\'s not good enough. With the biases that are held against us in the Middle East, we need to be FLAWLESS in their eyes.
I agree with most of your post, however there is no way we will ever be "flawless" in their eyes. Some Sunni\'s blow up some Shiites and who do they blame? Us. It is physically impossible to stop every act of violence these groups want to do to each other.
The Iraqi\'s in general need to lower their expectations and pitch in to help if they really want their lives to improve. Sitting back and blaming the coalition for everything that goes wrong is counterproductive - do they really think things will get better if we leave. That is a willing suspension of disbelief.
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Iraqis burn our troops alive and torture their own people and when we take a naked picture of them we are just as bad.
I don\'t know about you but I would definately prefer having someone take a picture of me naked with a bag over my head than be burned alive or pushed off the side of a building.
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Originally posted by Black Samurai
Iraqis burn our troops alive and torture their own people and when we take a naked picture of them we are just as bad.
Unfortunately, that\'s the reality of this situation. We have to deal with it.
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You know all of you are right... i mean in the Arab World...
They will all wake ... read and watch the TV coverage throw their hands in the air and say...
"you know what... it is kind of Funny.. i mean look at that Guy he has that Female American Soilder holding and point at his penis"
:rolleyes:
lets face it ... we will be VERY lucky if this results in a slight increase in violence toward the colloition troops.
worst case...
It could result in brutal reprisals from the insurgents that still hold foreign nationals and could lead to further attacks exposed civilian personnel.
But hey… what do we care is just a Frat hazing :rolleyes:
if somepople in here had thier way the people that took the pictures would reveive medals.
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Originally posted by ooseven
"you know what... it is kind of Funny.. i mean look at that Guy he has that Female American Soilder holding and point at his penis"
:rolleyes:
i know that thats sarcastic but somehow i wish that it would be like that... but unfortunately thats only gonna get more people to hate the American troops, coz it really doesnt matter if it was blown out of proportion, this is just gonna give all these groups around here more fuel to add to their already raging fire.
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Originally posted by Tyrant
i know that thats sarcastic but somehow i wish that it would be like that... tbut unfortunately thats only get more people to hate the American troops, coz it really doesnt matter if it was blown out of proportion, this is just gonna give all these groups around here more fuel to add to their already raging fire.
Trust me I also wished it was a sick joke or dream when i saw it on this morning news.
It is encouraging that the US military had this prison under investigation for sometime.
The reaction of President Bush and Prime Minister Blair was spot on.
Now they need make an example of them, and to be seen to punish the soldiers involved.
Damage Control should be the Pentagons Top Priority over this.
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Its Tyrant! Bahrain from what I understand is pretty liberal when compared to other Arab countries. Don\'t you all have legalized gambling and stuff?
You are right to about it fueling the fire. That is why I think it was irresponsible for the networks to air it. Especially a US network. In anycase it was wrong and I do think those responsible should be disciplined. What the hell were they thinking taking pictures? Its like R Kelly videotaping his sexual encounters with underage girls.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Its Tyrant! Bahrain from what I understand is pretty liberal when compared to other Arab countries. Don\'t you all have legalized gambling and stuff?
we are much more liberal compared to other arab countries but gambling isnt legal around here.
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I thought you all had casino\'s and stuff and Arabs from other neighboring countries liked to visit Bahrain because it has a lot less restrictioms... it was so long ago I studied it... is alcohol legal?
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
I thought you all had casino\'s and stuff and Arabs from other neighboring countries liked to visit Bahrain because it has a lot less restrictioms... it was so long ago I studied it... is alcohol legal?
they do come from all over the just think of it as vegas without the gambling ;).. as for alcohol it is legal (in a sense) but in order to sell it, as in every other country u have to apply for a special permit. but at almost every hotel, nightclubs alcohol is available.
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If alcohol is available, why were the drivers spraying each other with a fruit juice / rose petal beverage after the Bahrain Grand Prix? :)
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well as i recall their was some controversy about that so to keep everything cool (so to speak) with the religous groups and also to keep inline with the islamic traditions of the country, they opted to use this interesting mix on the podium (shumi had made a very funny remark about it too).
but according to some of the people i know who were involved with the Bahrain GP they told me that alcholic beverages were available in the paddock area..
oh and i forgot to mention yer not allowed to drink alcohol out in the open.
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it\'s only logical that these events happen,.especially since some soldiers have been burned hanged & ridiculed..just because it\'s isolated incident doesn\'t mean this type of behavior is not happening all the time...the soldiers after all are human. And when you\'re on the battlefied watching you\'re partner get shot or blown away,..it\'s incredibly hard to maintain that level of professionalism.
that said the military still needs to show some kind of restraint from scenarios such as these. it\'s counterproductive for what the u.s. is trying to achieve & cannot be tolerated..forget about wmd\'s (none have turned up yet) the spin the u.s. is using is that they are liberators & to torture the prisoners like that in the same torture bldg that saddam used will just ignite the muslum world ten times over..
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I just love the double standard when it comes to our proud men and women being displayed in degrading ways, yet it seems to be acceptable for US to do it.
Lets keep this up for another 50 years and count how many more skyscrapers come crashing down or perhaps more embassy bombings.
Im curious to see how this all turns out in the short and long run.
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Today, the biggest newspaper here had a picture of a British soldier urinating on an Iraqi prisoner. They also beat him and then dumped him on the road from a moving military vehicle.
http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,471260,00.html
Amnesty warned of this a long time ago. There are also allegations of this going on in Afghanistan.
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Originally posted by TSina
I just love the double standard when it comes to our proud men and women being displayed in degrading ways, yet it seems to be acceptable for US to do it.
Lets keep this up for another 50 years and count how many more skyscrapers come crashing down or perhaps more embassy bombings.
Im curious to see how this all turns out in the short and long run.
You are refering to people who cut the hands off of theives for stealing and stone women. :rolleyes:
Throughout history every military has committed what could be considered as human rights abuses. It happens in almost every war so I don\'t see what the big surprise is. Battlefield stress has a lot to do with most of these incidents - I don\'t see why such a big deal is being made about this. In general the US and the UK abide by the Geneva Conventions, do these insurgents? :rolleyes:
They don\'t subscribe to any rules of warfare and the treatment of prisoners (let alone non combatants) so I really don\'t find any of these incidents a major issue. The only concern I have is how it is being used for propaganda purposes by the Arab media.
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So why is it that we US citizens(as whole had to bitch and complain about the 1st 7 US POW\'s last year, but this was acceptable. These lunatics were competely embaressed. Not that I really care about them or what happend to them, but that isn\'t the point I am trying to make.
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Originally posted by TSina
So why is it that we US citizens(as whole had to bitch and complain about the 1st 7 US POW\'s last year, but this was acceptable. These lunatics were competely embaressed. Not that I really care about them or what happend to them, but that isn\'t the point I am trying to make.
Two completely separate issues. One was leaked to the press - one was flouted by the Arab media. The US DEAD were displayed on Arab TV and flouted in the Arab world as a whole. The pictures of these chuckleheads were leaked to the press - big difference.
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i see what both giga & tsina are saying but if you\'re the u.s. and if you\'re tryin to win over the iraqi people, this is not the way to do it..if we\'re their as liberators as they want to be called now:rolleyes: you can\'t go around humiliating the prisoners no matter how much shit they\'re poppin\' even if thery\'re tied up...
doing this will make the situation worse than it already is..not to mention that the iraqis that were on the american side up to this point are probably questioning why this is happening & further ignites the insurgents plight more..
that said i know the insurgents are a$$holes anyway but the u.s. have to come off as the bigger person no matter how many soldiers get hung or ridiculed...i\'ve already touched on how soldiers are human & such but they have to maintain their professionalism..or at the very least if you are going to do shit like that just don\'t get caught..;)
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Regardless of if those photos were aired do you really think the Arab world in general would hate us any less?
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Regardless of if those photos were aired do you really think the Arab world in general would hate us any less?
if that\'s the case what are we tryin\' to do here? just say f**k it and whatever happens happens? if soldiers are gettin to the point where they don\'t give a s**t what ripple effects that can happen because of their actions then maybe it\'s time to pack up & just say "mission failed"
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Regardless of if those photos were aired do you really think the Arab world in general would hate us any less?
Nope, but it gives them just one more reason to hate us. It creates 100 more suicide bombers. etc..etc...
PS, they are basically the same a few differences aside. It doesnt make it right and that is the point.
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Originally posted by TSina
Nope, but it gives them just one more reason to hate us. It creates 100 more suicide bombers. etc..etc...
PS, they are basically the same a few differences aside. It doesnt make it right and that is the point.
Like they don\'t already have an infinite number of reasons to hate us... I am sure that incident will create 100 new suicide bombers. :rolleyes:
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And now there is more. :)
Have a nice day.
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The hearts and minds in Iraq are no onger obtainable
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correction...some are no longer.................
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Some were never obtainable as well.
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its ever changing one way or another.