PSX5Central
Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: TSina on May 04, 2004, 05:57:29 PM
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http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=13BYVGQBO3TKACRBAELCFFA?type=topNews&storyID=5038799§ion=news
25 Prisoners Died While Held by U.S. Forces
Tue May 4, 2004 04:24 PM ET
By Will Dunham
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Twenty-five prisoners have died while being held by U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and two of them were murdered in Iraq by Americans, U.S. Army officials said on Tuesday.
An Army official said one soldier was convicted of murder in the U.S. military justice system for shooting a prisoner to death in September 2003 at a detention center in Iraq, and another prisoner was killed at the Abu Ghraib jail near Baghdad in November 2003 by a private contractor who worked as an interrogator for the CIA.
The soldier was reduced in rank to private and thrown out of the service but did not serve any jail time, the official said. The official said the soldier shot the prisoner after the prisoner had thrown rocks at the soldier, and the soldier was found to have used excessive force.
The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said because the CIA contractor was not in the U.S. military no legal action was taken because of lack of jurisdiction, but Army officials referred the case to the Justice Department for possible action. The official did not offer details of this killing.
The official did not identify the Americans involved in the murders or the victims.. Most of the deaths took place in Iraq.
Word of these investigations came as the Pentagon investigated the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. forces at the Abu Ghraib jail outside Baghdad, which has inflamed anti-American sentiment, especially in the Arab world.
The official said a third death among the 25 being investigated was ruled a justifiable homicide, saying it occurred while a prisoner was attempting to escape.
Of the other 22 death investigations involving prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan, 12 prisoners were found to have died either by natural or undetermined causes and a further 10 deaths were still being investigated. The Army did not say in which countries the 25 killings occurred but said the vast majority were in Iraq not Afghanistan.
In addition, the official said another 10 abuse cases are being investigated, nine involving allegations of assault and one involving allegations of sexual assault.
This ain\'t good at all.
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25 killings?
umm how can they go from natural death to "killings" ???
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this is to be expected..(as far as the investigations are concrened) the abuse of the prisoners in iraq have set off a chain reaction in washington..a few heads will roll..they have to, to send a message,..then like everything else it will die down...in the u.s. at least but it will be awhile in the arab world..and i kinda fear the damage is done already...this has caused the soldiers to be in even more turmoil on the streets of iraq.
combine that with the fact that countries that were down with the coalition are fallin\' off the map,..the initiatives & direction in which the u.s. wanted to take seems far out of reach...
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See... this is the sort of stuff people around the world probably hear about, but not us.
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
25 killings?
umm how can they go from natural death to "killings" ???
That is good old Reuters for you. Substituting words to make a more dramatic anti US story. :rolleyes:
Basically 1 out of those 25 was killed by a soldier - the other by a CIA Spook. As clips said no surprise here... Our military in general handles themselves with the utmost professionalism, but one or two bad apples will make headlines for weeks. Amazing.
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Im gonna have to agree with giga here, that article is obviously aimed to make it seem as though 25 people were murdered.
Hell 23 of them were probley really really old or sick.
Damn use of the english language to manipulate facts...
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Usually because it is suppressed as long as possible or sugar coated for US citizens.
On a slightly similar note...clips, it is about to get even more dangerous for our brave men and women. We were supposed to pull out on the 30th of April. Bush signed into effect our occupation untill at least 2005.
That in itself doesn\'t look good to the Arabs nor the rest of the world. Like we can\'t keep our word. Our intentions may be good for the most part, but we sometimes have a screwed way of projecting that.
I just hope more and more countries dont leave the alliance as more than Spain already has and I hope we dont loose too many more soldiers.
No one said it was going to be easy, but it certainly doesn\'t need to get much harder.
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Tsina have you ever heard of the expression... "Don\'t believe everything you read and only half of what you see"? This story isn\'t being picked up by any of the major networks and it has been out for 6 hours now. If it was so earth shattering I know Dan Rather would have been all over it.
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I believe the expression is "Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see" although i am by no means an expression expert...
Yeah it isnt a big story, the media blows everything out of propotion (liberally and conserivitivly)
You cant expect this NOT to happen, soilders are human, humans are naturally made like that.
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Im telling you this nicely and for the last time. If you want me to do what you ask, follow some common courtesy of not trying to bait nor (for a lack of a better term) f*cking with me.
Yes I have heard that before. I rarely believe anything I read without seeing the same.
Me posting this in no way says that I believe it, or are you to ignorant to figure that out for yourself.
I\'m simply posting something to spark discussion/debate. Once again, if you don\'t like it, keep your mouth shut untill your moderator duties require you to do so.
I\'m not sure how to convey this to you any better, so if you don\'t get it this time, I guess I just have to flat out ignore anything you say to me.
BTW, I\'m not trying to be a bitch now, I\'m just plainly and simply fed up with you. Which is also a shame considering you are one of the older ones in here like myself.
I\'m offering you an olive branch, it is your choice to accept it or not.
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Originally posted by Alliswell April 2003
I cant imagine what this war is doing to the men on both sides. I can see in my mind the 19 year old shooting Iraqi soldiers running at him...and having nightmares later on that night. I can see more Timothy McVieghs being made. In the Gulf War, as you all know, Timothy McViegh was there. And when he saw the U.S. policy in Iraq he went mad and decided to wage war against his own government. One guys has already gone crazy and has grenaded his fellow soldiers.
The thing is, this war is ruining humans. They dont have to get hurt to get scarred. My father, who was in Vietnam, had to pick up burnt bodies from airplane crashes, watched several planes blow up (One jet pilot waved to his truck as it rolled down the runway, only to be shot at and blown up at the end of the runway), was shot at, and almost died from a allergic reaction he had to a shot. The results are he got PTSD.....
......He (my father) was just fine before America sent him to "Stop Vietnam from taking over the world"
I dont want to imagine how many children will get a father back who is either a Timothy McVeigh or a PTSD.
I\'ve read Timothy McVeigh\'s letter, and he is nothing more then a man who saw the hypocrisy of the U.S., went crazy, and thought blowing up a Federal building would help his cause. This is the sickos war makes.
Enjoy the new generation
Boy I hate being right all the time.
But once again I am slightly off. The horrors of war have made them abuse humans as if they were animals, whether they did it out of intense hate for the enemy or for personal pleasure, I\'m not sure, but my point is true and remains.
War is not natural and ruins humans.
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Humans are animals, so this occurs in ANY situation someone has power over another person.
Pedophelia, War, Jail, Mental Hospitals, Teachers, Parents.... anyone in a position of power can abuse that power, and it is natural for x% of humans to do so. Why? Because Humans are not anywheres near perfect.
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alliswell, well said!!!!!!
I\'d take you out for a drink or two or three or four..etc... :) if you were local.
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Originally posted by TSina
Im telling you this nicely and for the last time. If you want me to do what you ask, follow some common courtesy of not trying to bait nor (for a lack of a better term) f*cking with me.
Yes I have heard that before. I rarely believe anything I read without seeing the same.
Me posting this in no way says that I believe it, or are you to ignorant to figure that out for yourself.
I\'m simply posting something to spark discussion/debate. Once again, if you don\'t like it, keep your mouth shut untill your moderator duties require you to do so.
I\'m not sure how to convey this to you any better, so if you don\'t get it this time, I guess I just have to flat out ignore anything you say to me.
BTW, I\'m not trying to be a bitch now, I\'m just plainly and simply fed up with you. Which is also a shame considering you are one of the older ones in here like myself.
I\'m offering you an olive branch, it is your choice to accept it or not.
Eh? Aren\'t we in the Current Events and Political Debate forum? This thread has not strayed off topic like you and Hamster took the pledge topic. If you can\'t take an opposing view maybe you should not post here? You have a problem with me debating your point of view? You are fed up with me? :laughing: I will live :rolleyes:
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I see no problem with a thread going off topic if someone brings up something else that sparks more interest, especially after posts about the original topic have already been made.
Stop mentioning me please, if you want to lock the pledge thread go ahead, ive said what I wanted to say.
Edit: if you feel the need to respond to this, PM me, lets not have a little bickering war in a thread that can have debates.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Eh? Aren\'t we in the Current Events and Political Debate forum? This thread has not strayed off topic like you and Hamster took the pledge topic. If you can\'t take an opposing view maybe you should not post here? You have a problem with me debating your point of view? You are fed up with me? :laughing: I will live :rolleyes:
Yes, we are, but you ALWAYS have something to say to me either in a post or in a PM.
So you are saying you didnt have any part in taking something offtopic? You have and continue to. Dont point fingers if your finger is also dirty.
I dont care if someone opposes me as my posting record has already shown. You seem to be the only issue.
Not really
Yup
Laugh all you want..you make your own impressions.
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I PM you when I have to ask you to keep it on topic - I won\'t do so this time - please keep it on topic.
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casuality of war
so what
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Originally posted by TSina
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=13BYVGQBO3TKACRBAELCFFA?type=topNews&storyID=5038799§ion=news
25 Prisoners Died While Held by U.S. Forces
Tue May 4, 2004 04:24 PM ET
Welcome to war. This is nothing new.
Originally posted by mm
casuality of war
so what
Dang, you posted that seconds after I posted... But yes, me and mm = right.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
I PM you when I have to ask you to keep it on topic - I won\'t do so this time - please keep it on topic.
I have, do the same..............You steady try to bait people, in which case is working right now.(you can have that much) What does it say about you though?
mm- Yes, that is what happens. When said war is senseless, it also makes deaths senseless. So it\'s besides the point. This isn\'t world warII or a civil war.
SwifDi- Im glad you know how to read, see above.
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Oh my goodness, war is war. Regardless of for what reason or what motives, the premise is still the same; kill the other side.
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I think the point of this war has changed from finding WoMD, to liberation to now fighting Islamic Fundamentalism. I don\'t see any wrong in this and since they are determined to see the destruction of the US - it is better to fight them on their land than in ours.
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SwifDi- it is not that black and white, if you cannot see that, then there is nothing anyone can say to you.
Gigashadow- That is part of the issue. The reasoning was one thing, then it changed when they couldnt prove it, then it changed yet again when it was notcied not as many wanted what we said they wanted.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
I think the point of this war has changed from finding WoMD, to liberation to now fighting Islamic Fundamentalism. I don\'t see any wrong in this and since they are determined to see the destruction of the US - it is better to fight them on their land than in ours.
this is tru..and it is alarming that the iniatives change daily...and another thing how long can the u.s. last at this pace? as you very well know suicide bombers and islamic fundamentalists that hate the u.s. are born everyday..how do you counter that relentless onslaught when u.s. soldiers tho yes they are brave,..don\'t want to die,..compared to a group that will virtually do anything to see the destruction of the u.s.?
i say the u.s. cannot outlast the onslaught..tho right now i feel they have too,..for the u.s to pack up & leave would be catastrophic for the u.s. here & abroad...bush will make the military stay no-matter how painful the situation may be...
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Originally posted by mm
casuality of war
so what
A prisoner of war is no longer a combatant. The rules of warfare do not apply in this case. When you take a prisoner, it is your responsibility to ensure their safety according to international law. Torture and murder of prisoners is illegal. Even in the case of the 12 who were found to have died of "natural or undetermined causes" this is still a disgrace. While they are our prisoners, they are our responsibility. Would you want it any different if you were a prisoner of a foreign nation?
I can\'t believe such a simple concept can be forgotten by our soldiers who are trained in such matters, and by the posters on this forum.
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Coredweller- That is what I was trying to say, thank you for clarifying. My mind is in a thousands places at once right now.
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All I was stating was I am not surprised... I disagree with the way some prisoners are being treated, however it is just one of the many disappointing factors of war.
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US foreign policy creates the terroists that want to kill us. They didn\'t just wake up one day look at a map and randomly pick a country to hate.
Think we need to just relax, stop this stuff in the middle east (except we need to help israel/palestine situation) and focus more on security here. That way we can still stop terroists but at the same time we can stop making ourselves look so evil.
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
US foreign policy creates the terroists that want to kill us. They didn\'t just wake up one day look at a map and randomly pick a country to hate.
Think we need to just relax, stop this stuff in the middle east (except we need to help israel/palestine situation) and focus more on security here. That way we can still stop terroists but at the same time we can stop making ourselves look so evil.
i agree 100% here. i feel there\'s gotta be a reason why we\'re hated beyond them just being jealous of us..if they are even that..to be fair giga gave me an explanation of why we were so hated and it was a good read,..he really had some valid points (i don\'t remembber what thread it was in ) but ultimately i still feel our policies over in the arab world at least probabaly aren\'t balanced...
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Foreign policy is only a part of the reason. Today, many Arabic countries are a political and economic disaster; in a world increasingly democratic and prosperous.
They rage at the loss of prestige and wonder why they are so often defeated and humiliated by the west. They
ask how this can happen if they are blessed by God. Since Allah cannot be at fault, who is? Worse still, how
can it be that Americans who are “filled with drugs, sex, and crime” are so powerful? These fundamentalists tend to blame "non-believers" for their problems.
These people merge hatred, terrorism and the targeting of civilians with religion. Regardless of what is going on in Iraq these people will hate us for our lifestyle due to the fact we are not Muslim and don\'t follow their misguided beliefs. To say that our foreign policy is to blame is ignorant as well as assuming we will be safe from attack if we pull out of the region.
Our policies regarding Israel and the Arab world will never be balanced when you have countries like Saudi Arabia who in one breath say they are our ally and in the next covertly support our enemy in war.
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These people merge hatred, terrorism and the targeting of civilians with religion.
You forgot ignorance.
As for the prisoners it\'s a shame. I hope this article gets more press, not to make the soldiers look bad but to keep them on their toes to act on their best behavior rather than let their anger get the best of them.
I can only imagine how a disgruntled Iraqi throws a hissy fit when incarcerated. :sconf:
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Originally posted by THX
You forgot ignorance.
I can only imagine how a disgruntled Iraqi throws a hissy fit when incarcerated. :sconf:
True... ;)
Only 1 death can be accounted for as a homicide by a US soldier - the other 12 were of natural causes like disease or wounds received from battle. I wouldn\'t mind it getting more press, but the press needs to be objective unlike the Reuters article.
EDIT: I am tired... 12 as opposed to 22...
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I don\'t understand what\'s wrong with the article. You\'re being less objective than the article. 10 of the deaths are still being investigated. Thus only 12 were of "natural or undetermined causes" NOT 22.
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I am not being less objective... Reuters is always first to publicize exaggerated accounts of anything that will make the current adminstration look bad. I take their reporting with a grain of salt and apparently so does most of the US media.
Their claim of "25 killings" is misreporting the facts and irresponsible. Their style of reporting is slanted - more so than any other "mainstream" news source. Example:
A Reuters dispatch by Luke Baker reports on the escape of Thomas Hamill, a Halliburton employee who\'d been kidnapped by terrorists in Iraq:
Hamill, a dairy farmer who came to Iraq to make money and pay off debts at home, was kidnapped on April 9 after his convoy came under attack west of Baghdad.
So, he "came to Iraq to make money"? Why not just say he came to Iraq to work? Is Luke Baker of Reuters working free in Iraq?
One can find misrepresentations in the media for the day at this link:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/
It is subtle little words and innuendo’s that are irresponsible to the public. Granted the example above is relatively harmless, but it shows the underlying contempt that a news organization such as Reuters has for any possible piece of good news that comes out of Iraq.
I would even go as far to say that the Iraqi prisoners are now openly taking advantage of the situation by creating false accusations. This is tying the hands of the military who are now being watched for any sign of so called "abuse".
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core
do not forget our enemy will strap a bomb to a 12 year old boy and send him off to blow up a bus full of innocent people for allah\'s love :rolleyes:
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... mm, wtf does that have to do with this thread?
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Nothing as those are just radicals and don\'t make up the vast majority of Muslims.
And to whom ever said something about "their misguided religion" you are truely an idiot to say it\'s misguided just because you don\'t agree with it. Yes they have a bunch of people who are misguided and use religion in the wrong ways and take certain passages out of context, the same can be said about any fanatic of any religion.
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^^
Agreed. Besides, it\'s not their religion, it\'s their religious "leaders" Like during the Crusades, their leaders told them that it was right, so they did it.
I think that the US is hated so much because of our "we are the sun" ideal. When was the last time we have "helped" a country without a worry for personal gain? Panama and their drug leader Noriega? Nope. Afghanistan while fighting the Soviets? Nope. Kuwait while fighting Iraq? Nope. We just like to meddle in their business and they just hate us for it.
I didn\'t take time to read the original link because I heard that the story was kind of "tweaked" But how about those abused Iraqi prisoners? That\'s another reason why we are hated, our "American life > Anyother life" If it was US prisoners getting killed or abused we would be in there like a pack of wild dogs. Am I saying that I\'ll rather lose a life from our team than theirs? Nope, I\'m just saying that if we really are trying to help this people(which we aren\'t) we should start off by treating them with respect. Iraq will be what the Soviets called a "satellite state" except a "democratic" one.
And Sine that "pointless wars lead to pointless deaths"(I think) was right on the money.
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So Bushy.. I guess those "rape rooms" and "torture chambers" are till in use? ;)
Btw, remember that Apache video? Its being looked at again, apparently the helicopter crew "murdered" those people on the ground. Since its against the laws of war to kill a wounded soldier (they were soldiers right? Or just farmers? OOOPS!).
/me begins to see why the US does not support the court for war crimes.
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Originally posted by fastson
So Bushy.. I guess those "rape rooms" and "torture chambers" are till in use? ;)
Btw, remember that Apache video? Its being looked at again, apparently the helicopter crew "murdered" those people on the ground. Since its against the laws of war to kill a wounded soldier (they were soldiers right? Or just farmers? OOOPS!).
/me begins to see why the US does not support the court for war crimes.
Farmers? Next thing you know they will be Muslim Clerics :rolleyes:
Now every death is going to scrutinized? Please give it a rest. Those soldiers were valid targets and maybe ground troops were on their way and the Apache had orders to secure the area. A wounded soldier can still fight and pose a threat - just in case you didn\'t know.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Farmers? Next thing you know they will be Muslim Clerics :rolleyes:
Now every death is going to scrutinized? Please give it a rest. Those soldiers were valid targets and maybe ground troops were on their way and the Apache had orders to secure the area. A wounded soldier can still fight and pose a threat - just in case you didn\'t know.
Still, it is illegal to kill a wounded soldier.
The gunner (?) even said "he is wounded", the commander then gave order to "hit him" (not that way :D)..
When hit with the type of weapon that the Apache uses, I doubt you\'d be any serious threat.. to a helikopter. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by fastson
Still, it is illegal to kill a wounded soldier.
The gunner (?) even said "he is wounded", the commander then gave order to "hit him" (not that way :D)..
When hit with the type of weapon that the Apache uses, I doubt you\'d be any serious threat.. to a helikopter. :rolleyes:
Where does it say its illegal to kill a wounded soldier? Linkage please. Who knows how badly he was wounded... he was trying to crawl away - he still could have pulled a trigger on a gun most likely and like I said - how do you know ground troops were not moving into the are right behind the helicopters? This is the second time I have said ground troops may have been moving into the area - they usually are proceeded by Apache\'s and other air support. The area may have been designated as a free fire zone - in which case they have orders to shoot anything that moves. Maybe they were planting IED\'s you know those nasty little roadside bombs... the policy is shoot on sight.
I realize that Europe is the land of butterflies and rainbows, but the rest of the world isn\'t as cheery. Don\'t even bother bringing up the Law of Land Warfare as it only provides for wounded enemies who have surrendered.
Technically these didn\'t surrender - I can already hear you saying "but they weren\'t given a chance to surr...." If they are in a free fire zone that is their bad luck. War is war - not a damn soccer game.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Where does it say its illegal to kill a wounded soldier?
Patrick Baudouin from FIDH (Federation for Human Rights) said:
- To deliberately kill a wounded warrior/soldier means a war crime under international law.
International law - http://www.un.org/law/
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Let\'s see......
American Civilian Workers being shot, burnt and hung = 3 weeks of media attention
American Soldiers being abusive to Iraqi prisoners = one week so far, story just started
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Originally posted by fastson
Patrick Baudouin from FIDH (Federation for Human Rights) said:
- To deliberately kill a wounded warrior/soldier means a war crime under international law.
International law - http://www.un.org/law/
Who the hell are they!?
Oh I see... some advocacy group:
The International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights is a self-governing group of non-governmental, not-for-profit organizations that act to protect human rights throughout Europe, North America and Central Asia. A primary specific goal is to monitor compliance with the human rights provisions of the Helsinki Final Act and its Follow-up Documents.
This group has no authority to declare anything crime.
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Oh, the law does the declaring.
By your reasoning a civilian can not decide what is illegal or not just because he is not a lawyer? :rolleyes:
I do not really care anymore though. Let them keep doing what they do, and we will see what bites them in the ass.