PSX5Central
Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: clips on May 11, 2004, 11:23:44 AM
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http://www.yahoo.com/_ylh=X3oDMTB2MnQzaTZwBF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEdGVzdAN2NTAEdG1wbAN2NTAtaWU-/s/186805
this s**t is crazy i don\'t know what to say about it..it\'s uncalled for..this goes back to what i said about madmen doin s**t,..but it also goes back to the conduct of the troops...this is truly sad
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It will only go on back and forth IMO.
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Well....those posed pics of the prisoners now look like candy compared to this.
More news : http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/11/iraq.main/index.html
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Even though you are right. There will probably be more of these actions resulting from our troops conducts. Both of these things shouln\'t have happened. Not one of them is "worst" than the other. They are both just as bad, but unlike the Iraqi soldiers, our soldiers were trained and raised to be the opposite of them.
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
Even though you are right. There will probably be more of these actions resulting from our troops conducts. Both of these things shouln\'t have happened. Not one of them is "worst" than the other. They are both just as bad, but unlike the Iraqi soldiers, our soldiers were trained and raised to be the opposite of them.
Oh please comparing a beheading to some hazing shows the true mentality of some of you. :rolleyes:
Not one of them is worse than the other!?!?!?! You are high.
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where\'s the bleeding hearts for the poor iraqi prisoners now?
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besides which, hostages have been beheaded before all this scandal. It\'s simply a crutch/tool/excuse for them to use to justify their actions.
In 2001 there was an american photographer killed in this manner in the Phillipeens by a group that took hostages and extorted money from american/european families.
Link (http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed052402b.cfm)
*edit*
mm - I think that you\'ll find that people who were outraged over prisoner abuse will still be outraged over this abuse. Just because they took the \'other\' side viewpoint on that issue won\'t mean they agree with them on all fronts. Probably most people just don\'t want to see any sort of abuse/torture/extreme violence with POWs/war (good luck to em).
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us > them
end of story
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classic mm^^^ this is a man of very few words...
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IMHO, they were just waiting for an excuse, and we gave it to them. Look for things to get worse before they get better.
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iraq is just one big mess..you have iraq\'s from saddam\'s army fighting & you have insurgents from what i can tell,..are coming from outside of the country...135,000 u.s. troops doesn\'t seem to be enough...yes the u.s. have done some good things in iraq schools...some newspapers are bein published..but still it\'s turning into a quadmire..(spell)..
i truly feel for this guys family...but i was kinda expecting the insurgents to hit back with something...it seems they have tenfold! i\'m sure bush wish he hadn\'t flew in on that battleship with that stupid smile on his face talkin\' bout major combat is over...it was only the beginning of the true horror to come...
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The rationality of these people baffles me. Its truely sad/sick. Which, i cant decide. When i saw this I was pretty ticked off and in that general "kill them" mindset. Something which barely ever comes into my mind considering im not very "patriotic" or w/e.
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What the US soilders did is as bad as this, it isn\'t murder, but its still using manipulation, control, and fear against others for personal reasons.
Whether the Iraqi prisoners are evil or not, we went in to their country and started treating some of their people like "objects" and humilliated them. In this region that is one of the WORST things you can do.
SirMystiq is right, both of these events were horrible.
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DH, how can you rationalize what these animals do?
they publically stated they will terrorize euro countries if we dont pull out
they fukn beheaded an INNOCENT non-military civilian. on TV too.
again, i say to hell with the iraqi prisoners and thier "mistreatment"
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Im suprised everyone finds this shocking. What did you expect? To be nice and give them an honorable death because thats what kidnappers do? Hell no, especially not people that hate Americans.
And mm your comment shows your arrogance. Two wrongs dont make a right. Those soldiers that abused the prisoners didn\'t represent the US as a whole just as this act does for Iraq.
But we probably are blowing the abuse way out of proportion, and is minor compared to this.
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
What the US soilders did is as bad as this, it isn\'t murder, but its still using manipulation, control, and fear against others for personal reasons.
Whether the Iraqi prisoners are evil or not, we went in to their country and started treating some of their people like "objects" and humilliated them. In this region that is one of the WORST things you can do.
SirMystiq is right, both of these events were horrible.
this is true i remember some prisoners saying that what they went through was worse than death...still it\'s a sad trajedy & will only spark more rage on both sides..
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giving some prisoners the beatdown and fukn beheading a civilian on TV are hardly the same
stop being a pussy and feeling bad for an enemy soldier WHO WOULD BEHEAD YOU, YOUR CHILDREN, OR POSSIBLY EVEN YOUR DOG THE SECOND THEY COULD
"worse than death", media proaganda lol. death, to those animals, is a blessing from allah.
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mm, yes its horrible that they kill and kidnap people, but wtf do you expect? they are fighting for what they believe is right, obviously they will kill as many people as they think they need too.
War and conflict always bring about death and destruction on both sides. I don\'t see why one side is any more wrong then the other side.
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And, im not feeling bad for anyone. I feel bad that this all happened for no reason and now things are a lot worse and a lot more people are dying then before.
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do you see US troops beheading people, dragging thier burning bodies behind cars, or even sending children to suicide bomb buses in the name of allah?
if i was in charge over there, which im not cause i think we should have left them to genocide themselves long ago, i would order every last mofo that points a gun at a coalition soldier shot on sight. thats right, non of this bullshit pansy feelings for prisoners of war. they attempt to kill you? kill them dead
this is war
this is thier stupid "jihad"
let them meet allah :rolleyes:
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mm i really understand where you are coming from..trust..as far as the abuse of the prisoners are concerned the u.s. cannot resort to their level if we\'re projecting ourselves as liberators..you have to have some type of understanding when you enter one\'s country ...stop lookin at these isolated incidents and look at this war from since the beginning and maybe you will understand where some of this rage comes from...
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rage? well, i think of them as less than human, so how can we understand them or thier rage?
like i said, i say we should have never even went there, NOT because we\'re fighting a pointless war on foriegn soil, but because those animals dont deserve our help
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i agree with you 100% we should have never been there....
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DH, SirMystiq and anyone else that thinks the treatment of Iraqi prisoners is as bad as the killing and beheading of a US citizen has some really f\'d up values.
I agree with mm... why should we be held to the conventions of warfare when they are not? Should we have one hand tied behind our back? Those who violently oppose our presence should all be humilated by women and buried with pork. They are claiming they are fighting for Allah - then we should break their spirit and faith. This isn\'t a war of liberation - this is ground zero of a cultural war.
As mm stated us > them
I think that is something you two forget - you are Americans and a fellow citizen - NON MILITARY - was killed. He went over there to help the heathens and this is what they do to him simply because he is American (I also suspect he is Jewish due to his last name). Screw winning their "hearts and minds".
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mm, why are they less then human?
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
mm, why are they less then human?
This coming from a guy that thinks death is as bad as being humiliated. :rolleyes:
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Giga, if we just left them alone they wouldnt bother us. This middle east vs. Western culture thing will never end.
Violance cannot stop violance, (genocide can, but i not think that\'s a good answer) We just need to stop the chain of war and attack and just let it go, change our foreign policy, and try to be less intrusive.
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No, would rather be humilaited then killed, but on a political and global scale... Humiliation pisses them off just as much as murder.
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any society that praises killing civilians in the sake of allah\'s good grace = less than human
humiliation? they dont even know the meaning of the word.
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We can\'t make their society change mm, it will change on their own, Western society went through the same thing. (Crusades)
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
No, would rather be humilaited then killed, but on a political and global scale... Humiliation pisses them off just as much as murder.
he hit it right on the nose..just because those of us in the western culture feels this was wrong and it is doesn\'t mean in the same token that they abide by what we think is atrocious..again it goes back to how they live and thier culture...this is why acts of this nature is nothing to them..to us yes it\'s wrong but in some countries they\'ll cut your hand off for stealing...
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noy trying to change thier society
want to see our civialians safe from horrible murder (mismemberment on public TV)
if that involves shooting every last iraqi soldier, do it
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
Violance cannot stop violance, (genocide can, but i not think that\'s a good answer) We just need to stop the chain of war and attack and just let it go, change our foreign policy, and try to be less intrusive.
WRONG What stopped the Korean War? What stopped World War II? World War I? Butterflies and rainbows?
Less intrusive? As in flying two airlplanes into two symbols of America\'s success and flying a third into the building that houses the top military leaders of this country?
I think you forget how this all started. No 9/11 - No Iraq, no Afghanistan, no deaths. We were attacked - not the other way around.
Did diplomacy work with Saddam? What do you suggest changing our foreign policy to? Turn the other cheek?
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We go to middle east > then they attack us > we go back > they attack us > we go back
We just have to not go there anymore, if we want to save lives, have better foreign policy and work on our security on our own soil.
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giga is right
i would never advocate it, but a single nuke would end this "jihad"
those animals only know two things, hate and violence
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
We go to middle east > then they attack us > we go back > they attack us > we go back
We just have to not go there anymore, if we want to save lives, have better foreign policy and work on our security on our own soil.
So your idea is to turn the other cheek. Let them pull all the 9/11\'s they want and do nothing except try and beef up our security. I think Ace suggested your solution yesterday - tell me when you develop the forcefield.
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WRONG What stopped the Korean War? What stopped World War II? World War I? Butterflies and rainbows?
Less intrusive? As in flying two airlplanes into two symbols of America\'s success and flying a third into the building that houses the top military leaders of this country?
I think you forget how this all started. No 9/11 - No Iraq, no Afghanistan, no deaths. We were attacked - not the other way around.
Did diplomacy work with Saddam? What do you suggest changing our foreign policy to? Turn the other cheek?
Yes. that is what i believe. I do not believe in revenge.
War cannot stop TERRORISM, violance? maybe... but terrorism, not so. You cannot kill terrorism.
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Originally posted by mm
giga is right
i would never advocate it, but a single nuke would end this "jihad"
I wouldn\'t cry.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
WRONG What stopped the Korean War? What stopped World War II? World War I? Butterflies and rainbows?
Less intrusive? As in flying two airlplanes into two symbols of America\'s success and flying a third into the building that houses the top military leaders of this country?
I think you forget how this all started. No 9/11 - No Iraq, no Afghanistan, no deaths. We were attacked - not the other way around.
Did diplomacy work with Saddam? What do you suggest changing our foreign policy to? Turn the other cheek?
sorry giga u.s. policies over seas years before 911 is what caused the buildup to 911..
diplomacy was working with saddam bush just didn\'t give the inspectors time to finish the job...don\'t you feel that even by now they should have recovered something regarding wmd\'s yet still over a year and nothing...
*damn there have been at least 4 responses already :p i type slow as hell..
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i would, giga
i dont condone mass destruction like that
sure it ended the japanese threat years ago, but it still leaves it\'s mark ever today
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So your idea is to turn the other cheek. Let them pull all the 9/11\'s they want and do nothing except try and beef up our security. I think Ace suggested your solution yesterday - tell me when you develop the forcefield.
Most of what makes us safer now is being done in the FBI/CIA/America..... Invading Iraq makes us less safe.
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this is going a wee bit off topic..i don\'t remember where i\'ve seen it but i was watching a short story a soldier from iraq was giving & he stated there was an incident where he came face to face with a child holding a AK & he stated it was either me or him and he shot him..he said he felt extremely bad about it & states that he has nightmares about it all the time..
i say that to show how they raise their children to be like that...but i honestly have to say that imo that is bulls**t to send your child thats 6 or 7 yrs old into combat...it makes no sense to me..probably because i have kids of my own & would never think of doing such a thing...but this is how some are raised & the parents nor the child has a problem with it...
i think the u.s. is the greatest country in the world..it\'s not perfect by a long shot but i just worry how they conduct their policies over seas to protect that image...
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Originally posted by clips
sorry giga u.s. policies over seas years before 911 is what caused the buildup to 911..
diplomacy was working with saddam bush just didn\'t give the inspectors time to finish the job...don\'t you feel that even by now they should have recovered something regarding wmd\'s yet still over a year and nothing...
*damn there have been at least 4 responses already :p i type slow as hell..
So by aiding Israel we deserved 9/11? :rolleyes:
Diplomacy was working with Saddam - what alternate reality did you come from?
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
Most of what makes us safer now is being done in the FBI/CIA/America..... Invading Iraq makes us less safe.
That is a nice example of an oxymoron...
Isn\'t it the CIA who provided the intelligence that persuaded Bush to go into Iraq? Isn\'t it a CIA agent who has killed at least one Iraqi prisoner that you and clips have been whining about?
Isn\'t it a combination of the two agencies you mentioned that failed to uncover the 9/11 plot?
I feel real safe. :rolleyes:
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The middle east is a ticking time bomb. We were bound to go over there one day, admit it. Saddam conquering other countries just so he can have more wealth, Osama terrorizing people who gets in his way (not just limited to the US), f*ckheads developing nerve gases and other weapons...
I think if no one would have stepped in one or two dictators would amass so much wealth they\'d try to pull another WW, twisting Islamic ideals to fit their own agenda.
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Dude, you cannot go to war because of what might happen!
Example: Communism in eastern europe. Communism in eastern europe eventually got rid of itself without direct military action. And we didnt have a US vs. USSR war... so, why is the middle east so much more dangreous when in acutality they have VERY little amount of weaponry and technology (except for israel and pakistan)
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
So by aiding Israel we deserved 9/11? :rolleyes:
Diplomacy was working with Saddam - what alternate reality did you come from?
no i do not think the u.s. deserved 911 :rolleyes: but because of how we enforce our policies over seas it lead up to it..not just by aiding israel..other arab countries in general felt they were being shunned by the u.s.
as far as saddam is concerned bush stated the only way saddam could avoid war was to give up his wmd\'s and unrestricted search of all palaces & whatnot..in which he agreed to.. then bush back peddled & stated it was too late, no more negotiations..he was going to war whether we liked it or not..you can\'t deny that...
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
Dude, you cannot go to war because of what might happen!
oh but it *was* happening. Iraq invading Kuwait, Saddam\'s sons testing out gases on the locals. How big would they have gotten if no one stepped in? After Kuwait they\'d go for Iran, then Jordan, then etc...
ps- just saw the video
DAMN!!
If you want to leave a haunting memory on your brain for the rest of your life watch it. It\'s not a Hollywood beheading with a quick slice of the sword. Think of psychos chanting Islamic readings while using a butcher knife to slowly and painfully tear this guy\'s head from the top of his shoulders. All the time while he\'s screaming over his own blood.
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sounds just like whats happening where US is holding iraqi prisoners
:rolleyes: and :rolleyes:
oh, and on precaution, noone better post a link to the video here.
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Originally posted by THX
oh but it *was* happening. Iraq invading Kuwait, Saddam\'s sons testing out gases on the locals. How big would they have gotten if no one stepped in? After Kuwait they\'d go for Iran, then Jordan, then etc...
ps- just saw the video
DAMN!!
If you want to leave a haunting memory on your brain for the rest of your life watch it. It\'s not a Hollywood beheading with a quick slice of the sword. Think of psychos chanting Islamic readings while using a butcher knife to slowly and painfully tear this guy\'s head from the top of his shoulders. All the time while he\'s screaming over his own blood.
And we have some in here who equate it with being led around on a leash naked. :rolleyes:
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This is disgusting.
Some of your replies make me want to vomit.
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Personally, I don\'t feel for a lot of these prisoners. They terrorize Iraqi civilians as well as American and foreign civilians. A few are known terrorists and have a history of autrocities against civilians and whatnot. They deserve what they get. I\'m not saying that what the guards did was exactly right but I don\'t feel for those terrorists. If they were Iraqi soldiers that were captured, that\'s different but the terrorists that are being abused, I say f*** them.
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how can anyone judge what the soldiers did when at every moment of the day they are criticized for what they are doing.
not only that, they have be aware of every man or child that comes near them, cause they might have a grenade in thier pocket or a gun ready to die trying to take a US soldier with them
yeah, thats conventional warfare
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
What the US soilders did is as bad as this, it isn\'t murder, but its still using manipulation, control, and fear against others for personal reasons.
Whether the Iraqi prisoners are evil or not, we went in to their country and started treating some of their people like "objects" and humilliated them. In this region that is one of the WORST things you can do.
SirMystiq is right, both of these events were horrible.
What in the heck do you think being a prisoner of war entails?
You belittle the prisoner.
You break them down.
You take away everything.
How do you expect to get info from someone who is kicking back with three hots and a cot?
What we did be HUMILIATING the Iraqi prisoners was no where even on the globe compared to beheading someone.
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amen
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I seen this segment on CNN a while back. A live feed from a bombing in Iraq on a holy day. An american hum v was sitting in the road as a crowd gathered and threw any type of debris they could get their hands on at the man occuping the .50 cal. He then swong the .50 in the direct of the throwers and opened fire. They all dropped immediatly and CNN cut the feed. I felt really sorry for those who Iraqis but now... honestly, they were insulting a USA marine. Throwing shit at him every which way, those skinnies deserved everything they got. My local marine recruiter called me and asked me if I was going to join the service since I expressed interest in them last year. Of course I am not joining but it crossed my mind for the sole purpose of advenging every brutally killed innocent US citizen.
If I was the President, make an annoucement telling all Iraq citizens to leave the country within 2 days, then when the 2 days pass, it\'s time for a full scale air raid which doesn\'t stop until there isn\'t anything moving. Kind of like killing ants.
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Nuke\'em til they glow, and then shoot\'em in the dark. :p
June 30th - the US will pull out of Iraq. Then all the bleeding heart liberals who think killing an American is less evil than pics of a criminal being humiliated have nothing left to complain about except maybe not being able to throw Osama a vegeterian picnic celebration.
I would so love to push liberals off the trees they\'re hugging and then slap them with their sandals and bash their kumbaya guitar over their heads.
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How can one compare what was done to the prisoners with the sickness of what was done to one of or own. IMO, you can try to rationalize what was done all you want but bottom line it was a sick, evil attempt at influence. Two wrongs don\'t make a right,
ok, so why did they have to respond this way. They don\'t want peace,that seems obvious, so why don\'t we give them a bigger piece of us than we have, right up the arse. Look at how we act as compared to how they act. Whom do you think is the more evil?
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^^^the u.s. will turn over portions of power to the iraq gov\'t,..but i don\'t see them leaving anytime soon..and to those who think these acts are horrible,..you know what? they are..this is their brand of punishment compared to what we consider punishment..that said i honestly feel that these acts are being acted out by madmen who truly are not practicing the true ways of islam...
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Although June 30 seem like a month and 2 away, it\'s quite a long time for those soldiers working over there, and each and every day, it seem like some U. S. troop will be killed...
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Originally posted by mm
rage? well, i think of them as less than human, so how can we understand them or thier rage?
like i said, i say we should have never even went there, NOT because we\'re fighting a pointless war on foriegn soil, but because those animals dont deserve our help
damn, your just beyond stupid....:eek:
reading your comments makes me want to vomit. I\'m just wondering, what would you have done, were you born in Iraq.
I know you\'ll probably call me ignorant or something like that, that\'s fine with me. It\'s arrogant pricks like you that makes this world such a bad place :(
just my 2 cents
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what is happening in this world right now is IMO a pretty good picture of what the human race has evolved too. Why do we have to be so destructive? Why? We kill because of revenge, anger, moneyprofit and tons of other completely insane reasons. Is this what we are? A bunch of destructive viruses infecting a beutiful and complex world. We can destroy this world anyday and infact some of us would do that if they could.
Civilian people living in Iraq or any other place are all innocent, they are like other civilans like you or me. I dont understand this world. We have only one world but we live in different ones, makes no sence to me.
How can anyone say that killing civilians is a good thing or the right thing to do? It can never IMO be justified to kill civilians.
This madness is what the human race has created and we are now in the year 2004. Where will we stand 2050?
Am I the only one that thinks we live in a pretty ****ed up world?
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My gf\'s dad was over there, and well he\'s had to kill a few people in his time. And everyone thats giving all this information on how the Iraqi\'s are being treated badly, please stop the bullshit. They do the same to us if they got a hold of one of us, except like it was said eventually we\'d end up dead, because the people over there fighting for Iraq are mostly terrorists now.
IMO that country can burn in hell, we\'ve done everything to try and help those people out and then we get rid of Sadaam and they are like get the f\'n hell out.
On another note, if a kid was holding a grenade in one hand and a gun in another and it was you or him I wouldn\'t think twice, war\'s war, and if you are 5 or 65 it doesn\'t matter. Of course I would feel bad later, but I\'d still take my life over the enemies.
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Originally posted by politiepet
I know you\'ll probably call me ignorant or something like that, that\'s fine with me. It\'s arrogant pricks like you that makes this world such a bad place :(
So mm and his comments bothers you more than the fighting and killing that some people in the middle east are doing?
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Originally posted by politiepet
damn, your just beyond stupid....:eek:
reading your comments makes me want to vomit. I\'m just wondering, what would you have done, were you born in Iraq.
I know you\'ll probably call me ignorant or something like that, that\'s fine with me. It\'s arrogant pricks like you that makes this world such a bad place :(
just my 2 cents
mm and everyone else on this forum has the rights to express their opinions but if we just can try not to make personal attacks this topic might not get closed. Okey :bounce:
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Originally posted by mjps21983
IMO that country can burn in hell, we\'ve done everything to try and help those people out and then we get rid of Sadaam and they are like get the f\'n hell out.
When you say that IYO that Iraq can burn in hell, does that include all the people living there, because if you do I would like to try to convince you that the people of Iraq is human beeing just like you and doesnt deserve to burn in hell IMO.
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Originally posted by mjps21983
My gf\'s dad was over there, and well he\'s had to kill a few people in his time. And everyone thats giving all this information on how the Iraqi\'s are being treated badly, please stop the bullshit. They do the same to us if they got a hold of one of us, except like it was said eventually we\'d end up dead, because the people over there fighting for Iraq are mostly terrorists now.
IMO that country can burn in hell, we\'ve done everything to try and help those people out and then we get rid of Sadaam and they are like get the f\'n hell out.
On another note, if a kid was holding a grenade in one hand and a gun in another and it was you or him I wouldn\'t think twice, war\'s war, and if you are 5 or 65 it doesn\'t matter. Of course I would feel bad later, but I\'d still take my life over the enemies.
i didn\'t hear the iraq\'s bangin\' on our door for help...bush made it a issue to aggresively invade their country..again this was a tragic incident...but stop looking at isolated incidents & look at it from since the beginning of the war...
i knew alot of people on my job that was like "hell yeah bomb the s**t outa those a$$holes" and this was at the very beginning when those bombs dropped...the shock & awe campaign :rolleyes: all the u.s. commanders & the pres..was acting like it would be a walk in the park and acted like their s**t didn\'t stink..again how would you feel if the u.s. got invaded?
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look they were pissed at us the last time we left because we didn\'t finish the job because of the UN. We really didn\'t invade there country invading means taking riches and all the spoils and basically making Iraq a state, I haven\'t seen that yet. An invasion is one thing, we came to help these people out, but like most liberals you guys don\'t want to see that part.
And no I don\'t mean the people I just meant it as a saying, basically I could give a shit about there country.
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^^^wow so you don\'t think bombs being dropped over your head and soldiers & tanks comin thorugh is an invasion? correction we did not come to help them..we came there to find wmd\'s... when we couldn\'t find them, then all of a sudden we became liberators:rolleyes:
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I have seen the video, and its the most disgusting thing I have ever seen.. :(
I do not recommend anyone else watching it... stay away!
No one on this earth should be killed in that way. I\'d prefer a bullet in the head any day.
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Originally posted by Bossieman
When you say that IYO that Iraq can burn in hell, does that include all the people living there, because if you do I would like to try to convince you that the people of Iraq is human beeing just like you and doesnt deserve to burn in hell IMO.
I can almost assure you that 80% of all the citizens in that country wouldn\'t think twice about shooting an American.
It is ridiculious how America has to remain perfect through this war. Iraqi\'s burn and decapatate innocent US citizens, but that is ok to the world. When the US makes Iraqi prisoners get all naked and freaky with them bad selfs, its the worst thing ever. I don\'t see us killing them, their still alive are they not? In fact, I found it and find it for that matter hilarious! These are people are trying to kill the ones who protect our freedoms. To say you don\'t support the army / marines as people and their conduct is blaently stateing your one of them. With all due respect, you can not agree with the war which is perfectly fine. Just pisses me off seeing a bunch of ******s who don\'t deserve to live in this country still holding up signs like, America is stupid, Take out troops out, We are gay with each other.
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then tell me, what would you do, had an other country come and invade america (theoretically of course ;)) because you have WMD. Would you welcome them?
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Americans aren\'t being slaughtered for ridiculous reasons by the government...
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maybe, but that\'s not the reason for this invasion...
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Originally posted by politiepet
then tell me, what would you do, had an other country come and invade america (theoretically of course ;)) because you have WMD. Would you welcome them?
that is what nobody seems to understand...
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I can almost assure you that 80% of all the citizens in that country wouldn\'t think twice about shooting an American.
.... that is a very very big assumption. Especially since there are Americans there, and most of the Iraqis don\'t seem to be shooting at them.
When the US makes Iraqi prisoners get all naked and freaky with them bad selfs, its the worst thing ever.
The US has A LOTTTTT more responsibility then Iraqi terrorists. We are one of the most powerful countries in the world, if we invade someone and then these types of pictures come out, of course it will look bad. Especially since we are FREEING them from that kind of torture.
To say you don\'t support the army / marines as people and their conduct is blaently stateing your one of them.
I do not support anyone who tortures people, sorry. I never said that the whole army tortures people, but obviously, some do. And those people, are just as "Bad" or "Evil" as anyone else. (I consider anyone who forces another human to strip naked and wear a leash while two german sheapards are held a foot away from his manhood to be on the same level with every other psychopath out there, even if the man IS a criminal. )
Just pisses me off seeing a bunch of ******s who don\'t deserve to live in this country still holding up signs like, America is stupid, Take out troops out, We are gay with each other.
What? where the hell did "Gay" come into this topic? And anyone can live here if they want, even if they disagree with America. I was born here and i want to live here, I like the people and the cities, but i still would like to change some aspects of our society and government. If you think thats "Wrong" oh well, too bad for you.
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I have very few things to say about this other than..
Concerning Iraqi prisoner treatement = Two wrong\'s don\'t make a write. But, shit happens when at war.
Concerning an American being be-headed..... Oh well, shit happens when there is a war.
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One set is troops, the other is a civilian. Viewing those the same........
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Originally posted by Bozco
One set is troops, the other is a civilian. Viewing those the same........
I think you misunderstood me, so let me clarify... We have to expect these things in a "war". The offical war may be over, but we are still there and the Iraqi\'s are out of control.. Yes, someone got their head cut off. Yes, Iraqi prisoners are being "tortured". Yes, people are dying. Guess what? We should of never been there in the first place, but we are and we have to accept these things are going to happen.
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Originally posted by politiepet
then tell me, what would you do, had an other country come and invade america (theoretically of course ;)) because you have WMD. Would you welcome them?
Well if they got rid of the tyrant leader that potentially had them.
If they got rid of the system of leaders that killed thousands upon thousands of innocent people.
I\'d say I\'d be pretty cool with that.
If only Gore were elected.... :jack:
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politepet, if my words alone can make you wanna vomit, i\'m pleased
i can only hope this war affects you personally so, for once, you can look outside out your pussy country and do something to help the world. perhaps you guys can send some of those tulips to the poor ignorant iraqi soldiers
that is all, please feel free to vomit
Forced to dig their own graves, the terrorists were all tied to posts, execution style. The US soldiers then brought in pigs and slaughtered them, rubbing their bullets in the blood and fat. Thus, the terrorists were terrorized; they saw that they would be contaminated with hogs\' blood. This would mean that they could not enter Heaven, even if they died as terrorist martyrs.
All but one was shot, their bodies dumped into the grave, and the hog guts dumped atop the bodies. The lone survivor was allowed to escape back to the terrorist camp and tell his brethren what happened to the others. This brought a stop to terrorism in the Philippines for the next 50 years
the man\'s name was General Pershing, and some 90 years ago he had the right solution for terrorism
or, as you say, just my 2 cents
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Originally posted by mm
politepet, if my words alone can make you wanna vomit, i\'m pleased
i can only hope this war affects you personally so, for once, you can look outside out your pussy country and do something to help the world. perhaps you guys can send some of those tulips to the poor ignorant iraqi soldiers
that is all, please feel free to vomit
the man\'s name was General Pershing, and some 90 years ago he had the right solution for terrorism
Nice quote about Pershing mm... I hadn\'t heard that one before
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i really wish patton was alive today, that man would walk down the center of the gaza strip holding his ivory handled colt .45\'s and shoot dead any prick that got in his way.
"Now I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. You won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. Men, all this stuff you\'ve heard about America not wanting to fight, wanting to stay out of the war, is a lot of horse dung. Americans traditionally love to fight. ALL REAL Americans, love the sting of battle......
amen
do i still think we should be over ther in the 1st place? not at all
but since we are, make our fukn impression felt
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Rock on.
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I told you he was a Nazi. "but since we are, make our fukn impression felt." And people wonder why others hate americans. I have plenty of respect for you but that is such a conservative stick up the ass statement.
anyway... somebody said that since we are the most respected country that we should feel more stupid for doing the same thing. And i guess you could say that but all in all we are just humans and rationality is rationality and just because we are a "rich" country doesnt make them any more wrong.
just a portion of MY 2 cents
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mm, what have you done for the world?
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hate americans? the entire eastern euro would be eating krout right now if it wasnt for us
thats what i have done for the world
oh, and im far from a nazi. if this was a perfect world, true communism would rule.
but in the mean time, i belong to the "i dont give a rats ass" party
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I work with a guy from Pakistan. He\'s only been here a couple years and he\'s one of the nicest guys I know.
Now, how about I take him in a room and videotape myself hacking his head off?
Awesome huh?
I don\'t agree with us being over there at all. But it\'s too late now. Were there, and we can\'t let this shit go on much longer. Either take care of buisiness or get out.
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Originally posted by Luke
I don\'t agree with us being over there at all. But it\'s too late now. Were there, and we can\'t let this shit go on much longer. Either take care of buisiness or get out.
I agree
and mm. You know i wasnt serious, right? And you havent explained shit so far about what YOU have done. Of course i didnt ask but why dance around the question? That is unless you dont plan on answering it.
Yes hate americans. For that board up the ass, "make our presence felt" bull$#it.
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no clue what you said, bro
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I was having a discussion with my friend on this. While i gave the same points as mm (shouldve let them genocide themselves..if we nuke them, more than the middle east will change..seeing as people have a problem with us going into Iraq, let alone nuking them), my friend said that we did stuff just as bad, but i dont believe him. He said that we raped them, and did a bunch of other crap. We had the discussion a while ago so i cant remember what he said, but it was pretty bad(stuff besides making them get naked). Just wondering if its true.
But i had one of those moments where you dont want to watch something but you have to..so i did. Words cant describe it. Just wish i could line every single one of them up, get barry bonds er something and hit them all with a baseball bat. Not literally but i f-in hate them and its frusterating not being able to do anything about it.
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Originally posted by mm
politepet, if my words alone can make you wanna vomit, i\'m pleased
i can only hope this war affects you personally so, for once, you can look outside out your pussy country and do something to help the world. perhaps you guys can send some of those tulips to the poor ignorant iraqi soldiers
that is all, please feel free to vomit
the man\'s name was General Pershing, and some 90 years ago he had the right solution for terrorism
or, as you say, just my 2 cents
you don\'t seem to understand what I\'m saying. I in no way sympathize with IRAQI\'s and their actions, however, calling yourself superior to them is plain ignorant, simply because you\'re not. People (in general) tend to overestimate internal factors of others and underestimate the external ones.
correspondence bias: the fundamental attribution error
because it\'s so easy to attribute others\' behaviours to dispositional causes, we often underestimate the importance of situational forces. Indeed this correspondence bias - the tendency to attribute behaiour to a person\'s disposition more than is justified (Jones, 1979) - occurs so frequently that one social psychologist labeled it the fundamental attribution error
what I mean is, were you born an Iraqi, you\'d probably be screaming JIHAD just as hard as any of those pricks. In other words, you are by no means better than any of them, you were just lucky to be born in a country that had the chance to develop the way it did.
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us > them
wtf are they doing for the world except sending childen to suicide bomb civilians over a 30 mile strip of worthless land? :rolleyes:
luck? how can we say if one person is lucky enough to not be born in a shitty country or not?
so, anyone got proof that US troops that raping iraqi women? shame how rumors spread and thats people\'s only defense.
again, i say kill them all and let allah sort them out
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Originally posted by mm
us > them
wtf are they doing for the world except sending childen to suicide bomb civilians over a 30 mile strip of worthless land? :rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by politiepet
you don\'t seem to understand what I\'m saying. I in no way sympathize with IRAQI\'s and their actions, however, calling yourself superior to them is plain ignorant, simply because you\'re not. People (in general) tend to overestimate internal factors of others and underestimate the external ones.
correspondence bias: the fundamental attribution error
because it\'s so easy to attribute others\' behaviours to dispositional causes, we often underestimate the importance of situational forces. Indeed this correspondence bias - the tendency to attribute behaiour to a person\'s disposition more than is justified (Jones, 1979) - occurs so frequently that one social psychologist labeled it the fundamental attribution error
what I mean is, were you born an Iraqi, you\'d probably be screaming JIHAD just as hard as any of those pricks. In other words, you are by no means better than any of them, you were just lucky to be born in a country that had the chance to develop the way it did.
Glad you\'ve sat through a Cultural Diversity class
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Originally posted by mm
politepet, if my words alone can make you wanna vomit, i\'m pleased
i can only hope this war affects you personally so, for once, you can look outside out your pussy country and do something to help the world. perhaps you guys can send some of those tulips to the poor ignorant iraqi soldiers
that is all, please feel free to vomit
the man\'s name was General Pershing, and some 90 years ago he had the right solution for terrorism
or, as you say, just my 2 cents
Hmmmm...
Read this...
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.htm
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Originally posted by Ashford
Hmmmm...
Read this...
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.htm
:( it was a good story while it lasted. Oh well... I haven\'t had time to check as much as I usually do - I just got our GPS unit here to work with the IPAQ talk about a pain in the ass.
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Originally posted by Bozco
Glad you\'ve sat through a Cultural Diversity class
sure....:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
:( it was a good story while it lasted. Oh well... I haven\'t had time to check as much as I usually do - I just got our GPS unit here to work with the IPAQ talk about a pain in the ass.
Anyone remember those cartoons with the Rambo pig type characters, funny shit, why didn\'t we think of this to begin with.
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Originally posted by politiepet
sure....:rolleyes:
Spare me
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Originally posted by Bozco
Spare me
Correct me if I\'m wrong, but I think you\'re the one who started it, so why should he spare you?
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Originally posted by Coredweller
Correct me if I\'m wrong, but I think you\'re the one who started it, so why should he spare you?
I was more or less laughing because it sounded just like my Cultural Diversity class, then he throws the rolleyes at me. If you must know.
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well....anyway.....your comment sounded sarcastic, so that was why I threw in the rolleyes. But if it wasn\'t....just pretend they weren\'t there ;)
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the answer
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I often disagree with you, but this I can agree with :D
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Originally posted by politiepet
well....anyway.....your comment sounded sarcastic, so that was why I threw in the rolleyes. But if it wasn\'t....just pretend they weren\'t there ;)
Well of course it wasn\'t all good intentions but I\'m never too serious. :)
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WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld approved a plan that brought unconventional interrogation methods to Iraq to gain intelligence about the growing insurgency, ultimately leading to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, the New Yorker magazine reported on Saturday.
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5154643&src=rss/topNews§ion=news
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Here is the link to the video of the American citizen being decapitated....
Very disturbing....
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that is f*ed up. Its a terrible way to go.
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Originally posted by mm
oh, and on precaution, noone better post a link to the video here.
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Bad move Paul
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reading is fundamental. :D
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I saw the video of it, and I\'m going to post here, my vies of it, just like I have on all the other forums.
[QOUTE]What the US troops did (in relation to mistreatment) to the Iraqi prisoners was unforgivable, and as such, should be dealt with. I have no doubt that under our christian democratic approach to acts that relate to religeous mistreating, they will be brought to justice.
However, as far as the other side of the coin is concerned, I feel compelled to say that the same outcome is highly unlikely. I can\'t help but get the feeling that they will simply melt away into the hills.
The beheading of a US CIVILIAN was absolutely preposterous.
The person who was caught up in this, was nothing more than a regular god fearing guy, who happened to be in Iraq, not for combative reasons, but for the purpose of rebuilding the inner structure of the country.
What I am going to say now, comes from the heart, so if you don\'t agree, I reserve the right not to apologise.
I was sent the video of the execution in an email by a friend who shares the same view as I do, and for the first 2 days of being in possesion of it, I found myself in a position of "should I, or should I not" look at it.
In the end and after much deep thought, I decided to watch it, I was only able to come to one conclusion, the act that was commited in that clip, was in breach of all religeous belief, be it christian,, muslim, judaism, or any other I care to mention.
I have no doubt whatsoever, that those on the allies side that are deemed to have committed an act against the most basic of human rights, will be brought to justice. I can\'t share the same optimism when relating to the members of the Islam faith that either comitted/carried out or supported this barbaric act.
As far as I\'m concerned, and after seeing the video in full, it has only served to strengthen my view that what we (as christians (and I apologise if any none-christian denominations are offended by my comments)) are right in the course of action we have taken.
George Bush & Tony Blair will always get my vote on this.
Like I said, I apologise if my words upset any none-christian members of these forums, but I\'ve seen the video in full, and it contravenes every section of the human rightss bill.
May God have pity on the persons guilty of taking an innocent civillian life, and may he grant eternal peace to the soul who\'s life was taken from him in such a cruel way. [/QUOTE]
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Something is fishy
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Originally posted by Luke
Bad move Paul
Wont be seeing him for too much longer.
jk
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My reaction when I saw the clip was:
i was in terror for several minutes as the clip ended.
i was scare, sad, and i could imagine how he must have felt...he was in terror too...and upset and unsatisified...very...
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I didn\'t find it al that horrifying to be honest,
when I was watching it I was kinda nervous, but when it happened.....well.......it just wasn\'t as bad as I expected. Don\'t get me wrong, I find it a terrible thing of course, but I expected to have more trouble actually watching it
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(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.icnetwork.co.uk%2Fupl%2Fmirror%2Fmay2004%2F2%2F0%2F00037C5A-B39B-10A5-A4F580BFB6FA0000.jpg&hash=f1d137b84fcf13f6da01cb6fb1dc89e1c0a258e5)
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What Americans did to the troops was pretty bad yea, but what did they do over in iraq to troops too I wonder? You didn\'t get to see any of that. Its war and no war is a good war. It’s that simple.
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If any of the abused prisoners today were formerly being held in custody by Saddam, I bet they\'re glad to make naked piles on each other.
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Oh, but the embarrasment of being piled on top of someone else is so much worse than being whipped to death or beaten to a bloody pulp right? (sarcasm)
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In their culture, yes it is. The pride themselves on the seperation of men and women and then made to feel like a woman. (words of a captor) The same guy even had the balls to say he would prefer beatings over the sexual humilitaion. Course he was probably hamming it up for the camera too, but I dont necessarily doubt it 100% either.
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Did you guys hear on the news that one of the 9/11 hijackers used Nick Bergs email address?
Also, not to promote conspiracy theorys, but on other forums I\'ve been hearing a lot of people post evidence that the video may of been fake?
I didn\'t watch it, so if this is completley absurd, do not flame me.
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I\'ve seen it, and some of the theories could be true.. He didn\'t seem to fight back, the blood didn\'t squirt and when the head was raised, not one drop of blood falls. Which tells me that he was already dead. This is one theory i\'ve read.
Still a very disturbing video, It’s not the gore, or the blood. It’s the truth that makes it disturbing. It’s a real person being killed in a very unhuman way (if not already dead)
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Yeah, the time code changes. IT\'s odd.
ANd the Musawi using his email address has so far been ruled as coincidence.
Pretty damn weird though.
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I thought it was his password to something and not his email.
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If you are white, American, Jewish, and probably working for the CIA (aka Nick Berg + Daniel Pearl) do not go to the middle east.
I think it\'s quite obvious Berg was more then a civilian. I\'ll start with what was he doing in Iraq? Promoting his business? Nice place to expand Einstein. But we know he\'s not that stupid. What was his business? Nobody knows. That\'s why this business thing is just a coverup for the real reason he was there. And I\'m really sure the guy who has his email address and password ending up being the one to kill him was coincidence.
I find it amusing to see all the \'just nuke them\' posts. Aren\'t these the same people who fought like animals to go over there?
I also enjoy reading all the posts that downplay abuse of Iraq prisoners. Last time I checked the U.S. is suppose to be a role model for the world, not some country who lowers its standards because \'they would do the same or worst to us\'
Look, the people fighting the U.S. over there do not want lawlessness. They aren\'t idiots. They just want the U.S. gone. But you say well we are over there to help you. It\'s quite obvious that they don\'t want your help, namely because your intentions weren\'t to help them but to help your own hide by looking for WMD.
I tried to warn of the impending failure of a Iraq occupation but most would not have it.
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Originally posted by alliswell
I tried to warn of the impending failure of a Iraq occupation but most would not have it.
Rumsfeld won\'t return my calls either.
I guess he\'s a bit busy.
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Originally posted by alliswell
If you are white, American, Jewish, and probably working for the CIA (aka Nick Berg + Daniel Pearl) do not go to the middle east.
I think it\'s quite obvious Berg was more then a civilian. I\'ll start with what was he doing in Iraq? Promoting his business? Nice place to expand Einstein. But we know he\'s not that stupid. What was his business? Nobody knows. That\'s why this business thing is just a coverup for the real reason he was there. And I\'m really sure the guy who has his email address and password ending up being the one to kill him was coincidence.
Working for the CIA - I don\'t think so... this guy was an Islamic fundamentalist symapthizer and most likely a convert to Islam. Secondly - GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT - he did not give his email address and password to the guy who killed him you moron. He gave it to Zacarias Moussaoui. A man that has been in US custody for more than 2 years.
I also enjoy reading all the posts that downplay abuse of Iraq prisoners. Last time I checked the U.S. is suppose to be a role model for the world, not some country who lowers its standards because \'they would do the same or worst to us\'
Who says we have to play fair when the other side doesn\'t? You would rather have the US fight with one hand tied behind its back while our enemies fight with whatever means they deem necessary? The only thing these fundamentalists respect is the same savagery they dish out. Your view on how we should behave plays right into their perception of us being weak. God forbid if this same generation was around during World War 2 - if it was we would be under German and Japanese rule.
I tried to warn of the impending failure of a Iraq occupation but most would not have it.
First you warned that our attack would be a failure and now you have changed that to be our occupation would be a failure. You and John Kerry have a lot in common. You both like to change your stories after the fact.
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Eh?
"Nick Berg + Daniel Pearl"
Berg was just an contractor? Like Hammil he was there to make money, I saw an interview with a truck driver of some sort, he said he would make about 1 million dollars for a year in Iraq (or was it six months?).
Pearl was just a journalist?
What have I missed?
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Originally posted by fastson
Eh?
"Nick Berg + Daniel Pearl"
Berg was just an contractor? Like Hammil he was there to make money, I saw an interview with a truck driver of some sort, he said he would make about 1 million dollars for a year in Iraq (or was it six months?).
Pearl was just a journalist?
What have I missed?
You haven\'t missed anything other than clowds (aka alliswell) misguided conspiracy theories that have no factual foundation.
There is some suspicion over here in the US as to Nick Bergs motivations for being in Iraq - some have said he is an Islamic Fundamentalist sympathizer. His brother in law is an Iraqi (his sister is dead - don\'t know the story behind that). While in Iraq he was caught carrying the Koran and anti semetic literature.
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What was his business? Nobody knows.
He owned a business called Prometheus Methods Tower Service Inc.
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Originally posted by mm
any society that praises killing civilians in the sake of allah\'s good grace = less than human
humiliation? they dont even know the meaning of the word.
I agree with you for the most part. Any being that acts out in such inhumane ways, to me, makes them less than human. I think its time to leave. Nothing good will come of this whole situation, other than a handful of rich guys getting richer. I think sending troops over there at this point is also inhumane.
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It\'s ironic, that almost everything we do is by your defintion "inhumane" yet only a select few things are called inhumane.
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
It\'s ironic, that almost everything we do is by your defintion "inhumane" yet only a select few things are called inhumane.
What are you talking about? I was talking about anyone who can slowy saw another man\'s head off without barfing or passing out being inhumane. when you say "we", who are you talking about? and if there are only a select few things that are considered inhumane, why dont you go ahead and tell me what those "few" things are, cause I could name an assload of them.
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I was just making an example of the fact that we judge others to be inhumane (we as a country btw, as in America) but yet we view it as humane to control people and tell them what to do in our own country, directly or indirectly.
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Thank you Mr. Vague.
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To be more clear, the majority in our country can dictate to everyone else what they can or can not do, just because of the majoritys personall moral opinion, And I find that very inhumane.
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[lol conspiracy theory...]
where are the records of bergs company?
nick berg had started his own company called prometheus methods tower services. when searches were conducted in his state to find this company, they came up empty. you are not required to file for a business i.d. but usually, you cannot exist without one. there is absolutely no record of his company, either through state records, online, or anywhere else. he also worked on the radio tower at the very prison in the center of the abuse scandal, however his company name can not be found on the list of approved u.s. contractors.
last year, the media ran national news stories about israeli spies infiltrating the u.s. phone companies. many people were arrested and charged with spying for israel, although israel officially doesnt spy on the u.s..
""Israel does not spy on the United States of America." -- Mark Regev, a spokesman at the Israeli embassy in Washington
Prior to 9/11, the FBI had discovered the presence of a massive spy ring inside the United States run by the government of Israel. This seems a harsh gratitude from a nation which obtains 10% of its annual budget from the American taxpayer, $3+ billion a year. Over the years, American taxpayers have been required to send Israel more than four times what the US spent to go to the moon.
What Israel has done in return was to set up government subsidized telecommunications companies which operate here in the United States. One of these companies is Amdocs, which provides billing and directory assistance for 90% of the phone companies in the USA. Amdocs\' main computer center for billing is actually in Israel and allows those with access to do what intelligence agencies call "traffic analysis"; a picture of someone\'s activities based on a pattern of who they are calling and when. Another Israeli telecom company is Comverse Infosys, which subcontracts the installation of the automatic tapping equipment now built into every phone system in America. Comverse maintains its own connections to all this phone tapping equipment, insisting that it is for maintenance purposes only. However, Converse has been named as the most likely source for leaked information regarding telephone calls by law enforcement that derailed several investigations into not only espionage, but drug running as well. Yet another Israeli telecom company is Odigo, which provides the core message passing system for all the "Instant Message" services. Two hours before the attacks on the World Trade Towers, Odigo employees received a warning. Odigo has an office 2 blocks from the former location of the World Trade Towers.
Let us be clear here. There is nothing benign about Israel spying on the United States. When Jonathan Pollard stole our nuclear secrets (which your taxes paid to develop) and sent them to Israel, Israel did not hesitate to trade those secrets to the USSR in exchange for increased emigration quotas.
The implication of these facts is that the billions of our tax dollars sent to Israel (while women and children sleep in America\'s alleys and eat out of trash bins) have bought and paid for a monstrous phone tracking and phone tapping system that can eavesdrop on almost any phone call in America. Even the White House phones were open to such tapping by listening in on the other end outside the White House itself.
This actually happened. The Ken Starr report on Whitewater describes how Bill Clinton informed Monica Lewinsky that their phone sex conversations had been recorded. At the same time, Clinton ordered the FBI to cease the hunt for an Israeli mole known to be operating inside the White House itself!
So here we have a foreign nation able to listen in on most phones at will, using taps that cannot be found because they are built into the phone system itself, and willing to use the information gleaned from those calls to blackmail Americans into any desired course of action. This may well be what Ariel Sharon meant when he stated that the Jewish people control America.
That the information gleaned from these phone taps is being used to coerce the behavior of key individuals in the US Government and media is illustrated by the manner in which the government and the media have handled this scandal of the largest spy ring ever uncovered inside the United States, and of phone taps on all of our phones. They are downplaying it. Actually, burying it is a better word.
Fox News, alone of all the media, actually ran the story as a four part broadcast, and put the story up on its web site. Then, without explanation, Fox News erased the story from their web site and have never mentioned it again. CNN followed by "Orwellizing" their report of the two hour advance warning of the WTC attacks sent to Odigo employees. But far more telling is the admission made by a US Official in part one of the Fox News report that hard evidence existed linking the events of 9/11 not to Arab Muslims, but to some of the more than 200 Israeli spies arrested both before and after 9/11, but that this evidence had been CLASSIFIED.
Since then, any and all mention of the Israeli spy ring and phone tapping scandal has resulted in a barrage of shrill screams of "hate" and "anti-Semite", two well worn and frankly over used devices to try to silence discussion on any topic unfavorable to the nation which owns the spy ring in question.
The story of the uncovering of the largest spy ring ever discovered inside the United States should be the story of the century, if indeed the US media is looking out for the best interests of the American people. That this spy ring helped drug smugglers evade investigators should be a major scandal, if indeed the US media is looking out for the best interests of the American people. That the spy ring includes companies able to track and tap into any phone in America, including the White House, should be a cause celebre\', if indeed the US media is looking out for the best interests of the American people.
But they are not. The media is trying to bury this story. They are spiking it, erasing it from their web sites in a chilling real-life Orwellian rewriting of history.
The actions of the US media are those of people trying to protect this spy ring and those that the spy ring worked for. The actions of the US media are those of traitors to the American people"
Sorry the link with this info has some serious shit on their site which would probably result in another ban.
here is one I can tho
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/12/18/224826.shtml
in war-torn iraq, the phone systems were entirely hardlined. saddam required it. hardlined systems are the easiest to bug, and saddam loved bugs. these systems were heavily damaged during the war and needed repair. nick berg was in the country helping to set up radio and cell phone com towers, transmitters, etc. nick berg was also jewish and had recently been to israel. this leads to the next question...
was nick berg possibly an israeli spy?
bergs family claims that the u.s. military held him for 13 days, yet the military denies this, and claims that the iraqi police detained him. the iraqi police, however, deny holding berg as well. what is clear, is that at some point, iraqi police suspected that he was an israeli spy (his passport contained an israeli stamp, and is widely regarded as a no-no in iraq.) when he was questioned, he was found to have an anti-semetic book and a quran. this does not make sense. remember, he was jewish. was nick berg trying to understand the religion of islam and the hatred of jews at the same time? were these books required reading material? this leads to the next question...
was nick berg playing both sides, and caught in a double cross?
the f.b.i. questioned berg in iraq at some point, up to three times reportedly, also suspecting that he was up to no good. they asked berg if he knew how to make pipe bombs, or if he had ever been in iran. after questioning, they offered him a flight home and released him. he turned down the offer for a flight home, saying he thought it might be too dangerous traveling to the airport, but when asked how he planned to leave iraq, he said that he was going to travel by land to kuwait. this particular stretch of road is a dangerous one, even for iraqis. it is a haven for thugs and kidnappers. a westerner in jeans, t-shirt and ball cap wouldnt get too far. surely he would have known this?
nick bergs father, michael berg and nick bergs company name are on a \'list\' at free-republic since 2003 as being enemies to the occupation of iraq, yet nick berg was a \'bush supporter\'. his father was not a supporter of the current administration, and has clearly made his position known on national news and radio broadcasts. he has stated that he blames the military for his sons death.
was there a deeper link between berg and 9/11 suspects?
nick berg had a connection with zacarias moussaoui, the only 9-11 suspect indicted by the the united states so far. nick berg let an individual on a bus use his email account and computer to send mail to various people, one of which was moussaoui, who then in turn, ended up with bergs email account password. strange. the f.b.i. thought so too, and questioned nick regarding his contacts. his name was known to the f.b.i. since as early as 2002.
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finally the video itself leads to many questions...
the white chair?
funny that such a chair is so famous these days. you might remember this chair featured in some of the iraqi abuse photos at abu ghraib prison. sure there are a million of these patio chairs in iraq, but it is worth noting.
the yellow walls?
the chair in itself might not seem like much, but how about the yellow walls behind berg, the same yellow walls in the iraqi prison that the u.s. military is now using, the same one at the center of the abuse scandal. remember, nick also worked on a radio tower here, and was supposedly detained here at some point. which leads to my next question...
the orange prison uniform?
why is berg in a prison uniform? this is the same uniform the u.s. military sticks on prisoners in iraq as well as down at the bay. do the insurgents shop at the same store as the americans? same chairs, same uniform. whats next? same soldiers?
the couch potato combatants?
in every video i have ever seen such as this, i can honestly say i have never seen a fat terrorist, not a foot-soldier at least. all of the men behind nick berg look out of shape, overweight and in some cases, even white. one of them is wearing sneakers.
strange accents and trouble reading the words?
the man in the center was having trouble reading the papers, and was constantly flipping them around. many muslims have said that their accents arent proper either. they sound neither iraqi or jordanian. some news agencies are reporting hearing russian for a brief moment. others say possibly iranian.
dead man walking?
this brings up another question. the man in the center is reported to be abu musab al-zarqawi. the video itself was entitled \'abu musab al-zarqawi slaughters an american\'. why would he name the video after himself, and then wear a mask? another potential problem is that the military and iraqi militants claim he was killed months ago in a bombing raid by u.s. warplanes. he was supposed to have an artificial leg, but he doesnt seem too handicapped in the berg video. this man is supposedly responsible for the madrid train bombings as well as the plot to kill up to 80,000 people in jordan. under normal circumstances i am happy to see terrorists die, especially when it involves u.s. warplanes, but if this man is dead, that is big trouble for someone.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4446084/
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/05/iraq/main604191.shtml
the man who cuts bergs throat is also wearing a gold ring on his right hand which no extremist would do. it is against the fundamentalists version of islam.
berg killed before the beheading?
finally, some are speculating that berg was already dead before his head was cut off. this may mor may not be true, no matter who did it. the tape is edited right when the beheading begins, and the timestamps are different, yet you do hear him screaming. a human head holds over a gallon of blood. when a heart is still pumping, the second someones throat was cut that severely, they would literally be spewing blood everywhere. we do not see this in the berg video. just a small amount of blood, on his shirt and the floor. the red carpet may hide some of this. either way, maybe the terrorists did kill him first, or maybe someone else did.
wag the dog?
the timing of this video release raises questions too. some reports even show that u.s. troops found his body on the 10th, yet the execution supposedly took place on the 11th. i support the united states, the troops and the president, but i do wonder...just what the **** is going on in iraq? whether it be mossad, c.i.a., f.b.i.
or just plain old insurgents, there is certainly more to the story than meets the eye.
[/lol conspiracy theory]
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Originally posted by luckee
just what the **** is going on in iraq? whether it be mossad, c.i.a., f.b.i.
or just plain old insurgents, there is certainly more to the story than meets the eye.
This part is very true I think.
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Yeah I saw that whole thing on another forum... it has some pictures with it - not gruesome or anything - just evidence to support these theories.
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I laughed at first, even when I first posted this last night, it was basically a sarcastic joke. the more I have been reading about this from all sources, Im fairly confident that something other than how it is portrayed happend.
What that is, I dont have the foggiest.
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A cover up? Never! I won\'t say the Goverment done it, but I have seen the video and I can tell you, that video is altered somehow, there is no blood really and everyone knows, a live human, with a beheading like that, would bleed bad. His facial expressions also don\'t match up.
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One of the better posts I have read in a long time. It makes me think twice about it all atleast.
Originally posted by luckee
finally the video itself leads to many questions...
the white chair?
funny that such a chair is so famous these days. you might remember this chair featured in some of the iraqi abuse photos at abu ghraib prison. sure there are a million of these patio chairs in iraq, but it is worth noting.
the yellow walls?
the chair in itself might not seem like much, but how about the yellow walls behind berg, the same yellow walls in the iraqi prison that the u.s. military is now using, the same one at the center of the abuse scandal. remember, nick also worked on a radio tower here, and was supposedly detained here at some point. which leads to my next question...
the orange prison uniform?
why is berg in a prison uniform? this is the same uniform the u.s. military sticks on prisoners in iraq as well as down at the bay. do the insurgents shop at the same store as the americans? same chairs, same uniform. whats next? same soldiers?
the couch potato combatants?
in every video i have ever seen such as this, i can honestly say i have never seen a fat terrorist, not a foot-soldier at least. all of the men behind nick berg look out of shape, overweight and in some cases, even white. one of them is wearing sneakers.
strange accents and trouble reading the words?
the man in the center was having trouble reading the papers, and was constantly flipping them around. many muslims have said that their accents arent proper either. they sound neither iraqi or jordanian. some news agencies are reporting hearing russian for a brief moment. others say possibly iranian.
dead man walking?
this brings up another question. the man in the center is reported to be abu musab al-zarqawi. the video itself was entitled \'abu musab al-zarqawi slaughters an american\'. why would he name the video after himself, and then wear a mask? another potential problem is that the military and iraqi militants claim he was killed months ago in a bombing raid by u.s. warplanes. he was supposed to have an artificial leg, but he doesnt seem too handicapped in the berg video. this man is supposedly responsible for the madrid train bombings as well as the plot to kill up to 80,000 people in jordan. under normal circumstances i am happy to see terrorists die, especially when it involves u.s. warplanes, but if this man is dead, that is big trouble for someone.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4446084/
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/05/iraq/main604191.shtml
the man who cuts bergs throat is also wearing a gold ring on his right hand which no extremist would do. it is against the fundamentalists version of islam.
berg killed before the beheading?
finally, some are speculating that berg was already dead before his head was cut off. this may mor may not be true, no matter who did it. the tape is edited right when the beheading begins, and the timestamps are different, yet you do hear him screaming. a human head holds over a gallon of blood. when a heart is still pumping, the second someones throat was cut that severely, they would literally be spewing blood everywhere. we do not see this in the berg video. just a small amount of blood, on his shirt and the floor. the red carpet may hide some of this. either way, maybe the terrorists did kill him first, or maybe someone else did.
wag the dog?
the timing of this video release raises questions too. some reports even show that u.s. troops found his body on the 10th, yet the execution supposedly took place on the 11th. i support the united states, the troops and the president, but i do wonder...just what the **** is going on in iraq? whether it be mossad, c.i.a., f.b.i.
or just plain old insurgents, there is certainly more to the story than meets the eye.
[/lol conspiracy theory]
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Looks like more is comming up. Who knows how much truth is behind this.
\'Definitely a Cover-Up\'
Former Abu Ghraib Intel Staffer Says Army Involved in Scandal
(May 18) -- Dozens of soldiers — other than the seven military police reservists who have been charged — were involved in the abuse at Iraq\'s Abu Ghraib prison, and there is an effort under way in the Army to hide it, a key witness in the investigation told ABCNEWS.
"There\'s definitely a cover-up," the witness, Sgt. Samuel Provance, said. "People are either telling themselves or being told to be quiet."
Provance, 30, was part of the 302nd Military Intelligence Battalion stationed at Abu Ghraib last September. He spoke to ABCNEWS despite orders from his commanders not to.
"What I was surprised at was the silence," said Provance. "The collective silence by so many people that had to be involved, that had to have seen something or heard something."
Provance, now stationed in Germany, ran the top secret computer network used by military intelligence at the prison.
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He said that while he did not see the actual abuse take place, the interrogators with whom he worked freely admitted they directed the MPs\' rough treatment of prisoners.
"Anything [the MPs] were to do legally or otherwise, they were to take those commands from the interrogators," he said.
Top military officials have claimed the abuse seen in the photos at Abu Ghraib was limited to a few MPs, but Provance says the sexual humiliation of prisoners began as a technique ordered by the interrogators from military intelligence.
"One interrogator told me about how commonly the detainees were stripped naked, and in some occasions, wearing women\'s underwear," Provance said. "If it\'s your job to strip people naked, yell at them, scream at them, humiliate them, it\'s not going to be too hard to move from that to another level."
According to Provance, some of the physical abuse that took place at Abu Ghraib included U.S. soldiers "striking [prisoners] on the neck area somewhere and the person being knocked out. Then [the soldier] would go to the next detainee, who would be very fearful and voicing their fear, and the MP would calm him down and say, \'We\'re not going to do that. It\'s OK. Everything\'s fine,\' and then do the exact same thing to him."
Provance also described an incident when two drunken interrogators took a female Iraqi prisoner from her cell in the middle of the night and stripped her naked to the waist. The men were later restrained by another MP.
Pentagon Sanctions Investigation
Maj. Gen. George Fay, the Army\'s deputy chief of staff for intelligence, was assigned by the Pentagon to investigate the role of military intelligence in the abuse at the Iraq prison.
Fay started his probe on April 23, but Provance said when Fay interviewed him, the general seemed interested only in the military police, not the interrogators, and seemed to discourage him from testifying.
Provance said Fay threatened to take action against him for failing to report what he saw sooner, and the sergeant fears he will be ostracized for speaking out.
"I feel like I\'m being punished for being honest," Provance told ABCNEWS. "You know, it was almost as if I actually felt if all my statements were shredded and I said, like most everybody else, \'I didn\'t hear anything, I didn\'t see anything. I don\'t know what you\'re talking about,\' then my life would be just fine right now."
In response, Army officials said it is "routine procedure to advise military personnel under investigative review" not to comment.
The officials said, however, that Fay and the military were committed to an honest, in-depth investigation of what happened at the prison.
But Provance believes many involved may not be as forthcoming with information.
"I would say many people are probably hiding and wishing to God that this storm passes without them having to be investigated [or] personally looked at."
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040518204509990001
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wrong thread..my bad.
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
Giga, if we just left them alone they wouldnt bother us. This middle east vs. Western culture thing will never end.
Holy cow!
We are the devil in the eyes of these animals. We turn the other cheek and they\'re going to cut it off.
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Once again, we can\'t change what they think of us by bombing them.
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I\'m sorry, I was not clear, changing their minds, the terrorists, is not an option. Killing them is the only answer.
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People need to learn from the mistakes history has taught us.
"We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analyzing possible causes, by trying to remove them, by discussion in a spirit of collaboration and good will. I cannot believe that such a program would be rejected by the people of this country, even if it does mean the establishment of personal contact with the dictators." - Neville Chamberlain
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Ace, unfortuantly, irrational opinions such as that will be the cause for destruction for future generations.
And Gigashadow, the situations are completley different.
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Really... how so?
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We are fighting two things right now:
Terrorists and Iraq
Terrorists arn\'t even a country first of all.
Then Iraq, hasn\'t done anything agressive for 10 years, and was not a relativly powerful country.
Germany on the other hand was a european country on the rise out of an economic depression with a rapidly growing military, and they also invaded countries.
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You cannot go around killing anyone suspected of terrorism. That is the worse possible stance for the American system to go.
Fact is, after 9/11 we have realized we are vunerable to terrorism and there are people out there who want America to fall. Since then, we have went and hunted down these terrorist and to somewhat a success, however, Iraq was a stretch and in some ways, a last ditch effort to take attention away from the Adminstration\'s failure to capture the man who did set up 9/11, Osama Bin Laden.
I don\'t think you can compare the beheading to prisoner torture pictures, but I think we can all agree ugly stuff happens during war and both sides, at this point are simply in a pissing contest.
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Conspiracy theories aside, can any of you actually believe that what our goverment is saying about this is truthful? I don\'t. I think there is a lot of important facts being left out with the videotape and the prisoner pictures. I suspect we will never find out the complete truth behind this, but I do know, the sooner we pull out of Iraq the better.
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Known terrorists can take a dirt nap courtesy of the US any day and I will not blink an eye.
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Fine, but when another 9/11 happens down the world, perhaps you may reconsider your foreign policy.
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So your policy is to ignore the terrorist that wants you dead and hope that he realizes that you are minding your own business?
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Yes.
It makes more sense to me then continuing a cycle of war and terrorism.
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By that rational is it ok for the US to open fire in and drop bombs in US cities? I mean sure are sure are alot of terrorist sand "alleged" terrorists right here in our own back yard.
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Know that you mention it, I do think there are some states I would like to drop bombs on. Unfortunately I live in one of them. :P
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lol, thanks for the smile and chuckle. I needed that today.
Seriously though, what do you think is a good idea to battle this terrorism shit, since terrorists come from every country in the world and dont have a "homeland?"
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Islamic Fundamentalists do... I don\'t particularly like Dick Cheney, but it is true when he says the new frontline for the war on terror is Iraq. Every one that the coalition kills over there is one that won\'t be hijacking planes or planting bombs.
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Originally posted by luckee
lol, thanks for the smile and chuckle. I needed that today.
Seriously though, what do you think is a good idea to battle this terrorism shit, since terrorists come from every country in the world and dont have a "homeland?"
That\'s a scary question because I don\'t think it will ever end. We can do more than any other country to try and protect our people but there will be another attack. 9/11 has let the cat out of the bag and I don\'t think we\'ll ever get it back in.
Not really an answer because I don\'t have one. I do believe that the only good terrorist is a dead terrorist.
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giga, so how long do we stay in Iraq and piss them off further and have them bringing more and more in to fight us?
Ace-respectable enough
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Would you rather have them come here? This is a cultural war now - the Iraqi war has long been over - even you can\'t deny that. We stay until the job is done, meaning Iraq has a stable secular government.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Would you rather have them come here? This is a cultural war now - the Iraqi war has long been over - even you can\'t deny that. We stay until the job is done, meaning Iraq has a stable secular government.
i wouldn\'t want them here..i agree..the u.s. must stay in iraq until a stable gov\'t is put in place..which is hard to imagine since they have just killed another member from the iraqi governing council..that just shows that there is no security in iraq at all...how can you let someone like that (who basically is like the pres...get assassinated?) the u.s. military with all it\'s might is being strechted way beyond it\'s limits...
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They arent being stretched, they dont really care.