PSX5Central
Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: TSina on May 14, 2004, 11:08:27 AM
-
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=14&u=/ap/20040514/ap_on_re_us/gang_terror_charge_2
By LUKAS I. ALPERT, Associated Press Writer
NEW YORK - Nineteen members of a street gang accused of menacing their neighborhood have been indicted on murder and other charges as acts of terror, believed to be the first use of the state\'s anti-terrorism law against a gang.
Five of the 19 gang members indicted by a grand jury were arrested Thursday, police said. The other 14 were still being sought.
Charging that the St. James Gang acted with "the intent to intimidate or coerce a civilian population," Bronx District Attorney Robert Johnson said the grand jury was justified in adding the terrorism stipulation to several counts including conspiracy, murder and gang assault.
Johnson said it was the first time he was aware of that the terrorism statute had been used in such a way. The law, passed by the state Legislature six days after the Sept. 11 attack, allows for more severe sentences.
Edgar Morales, 22, who was arrested Thursday, faces the most serious charge, second-degree murder as a terrorist act, for the shooting death of a 10-year-old girl in August 2002 at a baptism party.
Prosecutors allege 12 members of the gang crashed the party and confronted a man they believed was a member of a rival gang. The gang members chased the man outside and started shooting, hitting the girl with a stray bullet, prosecutors said.
If convicted on that charge, Morales, who also faces several other charges, would face a mandatory life sentence without parole. The charge without the terrorism stipulation would carry a sentence of 25 years to life.
The four other men arrested Thursday were charged with conspiracy and could face as much as 25 years in prison if
convicted.
______________________
Is this a mis-use of the terrorists laws? I tend to think so. Yes these guys are scumbags, yes they deserve to be locked in prison the rest of their lives, but what does this mean that prosecuters can charge them with terrorism? We already have a law against murder and trespassing, why not just use those charges? Can someone who is reckless driving get charged with terrorism now because they are technically causing fear in other citizens? It is this (in my opinion) mis-use of these broad hard to define laws that makes me (and others) nervous about the way our legal system is heading. Twisting laws intended for one purpose so you can use them for another is a disgrace.
What do you guys think.
And no, Im not feeling sorry for the poor unfortunate gangmembers. :rolleyes:
-
sometimes I wonder if TSina is too liberal or it\'s just me? But that\'s cool, I prefer liberal over reactionary anyday I guess.
-
This is a state law - don\'t confuse it with a Federal law. As for the charges - I can see the logic behind charging them under the state law. They are a gang who was using terror to intimidate the general public.
I am sure it will go throug the appeals process anyway... should be interesting to see what the final outcome will be.
-
Originally posted by Paul2
sometimes I wonder if TSina is too liberal or it\'s just me? But that\'s cool, I prefer liberal over reactionary anyday I guess.
Yeah look where she lives... WPB :rolleyes:
-
Not like I was born and raised here.
Anywho...
It\'s like the shameful loopholes and twists defense lawyers use to get other scum off the hook instead of the DA "hooking" them.
Both are utterly disgusting.
I dont really agree with that b/c untill now, I have never, ever heard of gangmembers refered to as terrorists.
-
Well look at it this way. According to their explanation of a terrorist they do fit.
-
If you agree with them serving harsh sentences, what difference does it make what they are charged with?
Same penalties...
-
Computer hackers can be considered terrorists now too...
-
good
-
What\'s wrong with simply charging them with the crime they actually commited? Isn\'t murder a strong enough charge? They could get the death penalty or they could spend their life in prison. Adding another charge so we can give them double life is stupid. They\'re not even going to live to "double life". In the meantime we\'ve sent the message that the spirit of our laws doesn\'t matter, all that matters is how you can twist them.
There were charges that could have been filled against the gang members before 9/11, so why do we need to have these new laws? Why not take the gang members and charge them with their real crimes. if they are demanding that a business pay them money or they will **** it up, there is already a law against that. If they are carrying weapons, there is already a law against that too. If they murdered someone (whicht they did), there is a law against that. If they are disturbing the peace, there is a law against that too. etc.
why the need for the redundancy? If I get in a heated argument with a neighbor because their dog craps on my yard, and I start "terrorizing" him by throwing his dog crap at his front door and house, will I have to go to jail for 25 years?
It\'s just like a white man beating a black man, a simple assault possibly turns into a hate crime now when often it isnt.
Bozco- By definition, it can and often does. When was the last time you heard gangmembers refered to as terrorists? We both know that the term terrorism, when used in respect to crimes, has always been used in reference to religious or politically motivated groups.
-
Originally posted by TSina
Bozco- By definition, it can and often does. When was the last time you heard gangmembers refered to as terrorists? We both know that the term terrorism, when used in respect to crimes, has always been used in reference to religious or politically motivated groups.
I know, I just feel they\'re committing the crime labeled in the law so I have no problem against it. Also, you say it\'s overkill to give double life, but the other guys who aren\'t charged for murder will get mone penalties now that aren\'t overkill.
-
Tsina, there’s a difference between 1 person, and a population of people. If a gang is using fear and hatred on groups of people to do what they want, get what they want etc. I\'d call them terrorists.
The Dictionary Meaning
"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."
I\'d call them organized people using violence against people to intimidate or coerce them. Wouldn\'t u?
-
Your obviously missing what Im saying soulgrind. I have no probs with them being locked away forever, but dont you think its a little retarded to charge them as terrorists when we already have laws on the book they can be charged with that already state they wont see the light of day?
If anything what the states office is trying to do may have the completely opposite effect.
Example....People sue for obscene amounts of money nowadays. How often do the judge and or juries decide the opposite b/c of how rediculous it seems?
The charges that most of them face is more than sufficient in making sure these punks dont see the light of the sun beyond the "day yard" if found guilty. Being charged as terrorists may even help them with a lesser sentence.
PS..I do know what the dictionary term for a terrorist is as I posted it in another forum that we are discussing it in. The dictionary term has been that way for years, yet gangmembers were not terrorists untill this case.
-
Eh, that\'s why gangs are bad.
-
Very true.
Similarly related... How come gang members dont get charged under RICO statue? How street gangs operate, espescially the larger ones is very much like the mob and they always try to hit mobsters with the RICO clause.
-
Look up RICO and you will understand why. :rolleyes:
-
Is that all you do is post the rolleyes emiticon? You must be proud of that talent.
(1) ``racketeering activity\'\' means (A) any act or threat
involving murder, kidnapping, gambling, arson, robbery, bribery,
extortion, dealing in obscene matter, or dealing in a controlled
substance or listed chemical (as defined in section 102 of the
Controlled Substances Act), which is chargeable under State law and
punishable by imprisonment for more than one year; (B) any act which
is indictable under any of the following provisions of title 18,
United States Code: Section 201 (relating to bribery), section 224
(relating to sports bribery), sections 471, 472, and 473 (relating
to counterfeiting), section 659 (relating to theft from interstate
shipment) if the act indictable under section 659 is felonious,
section 664 (relating to embezzlement from pension and welfare
funds), sections 891-894 (relating to extortionate credit
transactions), section 1028 (relating to fraud and related activity
in connection with identification documents), section 1029 (relating
to fraud and related activity in connection with access devices),
section 1084 (relating to the transmission of gambling information),
section 1341 (relating to mail fraud), section 1343 (relating to
wire fraud), section 1344 (relating to financial institution fraud),
section 1425 (relating to the procurement of citizenship or
nationalization unlawfully), section 1426 (relating to the
reproduction of naturalization or citizenship papers), section 1427
(relating to the sale of naturalization or citizenship papers),
sections 1461-1465 (relating to obscene matter), section 1503
(relating to obstruction of justice), section 1510 (relating to
obstruction of criminal investigations), section 1511 (relating to
the obstruction of State or local law enforcement), section 1512
(relating to tampering with a witness, victim, or an informant),
section 1513 (relating to retaliating against a witness, victim, or
an informant), section 1542 (relating to false statement in
application and use of passport), section 1543 (relating to forgery
or false use of passport), section 1544 (relating to misuse of
passport), section 1546 (relating to fraud and misuse of visas,
permits, and other documents), sections 1581-1588 (relating to
peonage and slavery), section 1951 (relating to interference with
commerce, robbery, or extortion), section 1952 (relating to
racketeering), section 1953 (relating to interstate transportation
of wagering paraphernalia), section 1954 (relating to unlawful
welfare fund payments), section 1955 (relating to the prohibition of
illegal gambling businesses), section 1956 (relating to the
laundering of monetary instruments), section 1957 (relating to
engaging in monetary transactions in property derived from specified
unlawful activity), section 1958 (relating to use of interstate
commerce facilities in the commission of murder-for-hire), sections
2251, 2251A, 2252, and 2260 (relating to sexual exploitation of
children), sections 2312 and 2313 (relating to interstate
transportation of stolen motor vehicles), sections 2314 and 2315
(relating to interstate transportation of stolen property), section
2318 (relating to trafficking in counterfeit labels for
phonorecords, computer programs or computer program documentation or
packaging and copies of motion pictures or other audiovisual works),
section 2319 (relating to criminal infringement of a copyright),
section 2319A (relating to unauthorized fixation of and trafficking
in sound recordings and music videos of live musical performances),
section 2320 (relating to trafficking in goods or services bearing
counterfeit marks), section 2321 (relating to trafficking in certain
motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts), sections 2341-2346 (relating
to trafficking in contraband cigarettes), sections 2421-24 (relating
to white slave traffic), (C) any act which is indictable under title
29, United States Code, section 186 (dealing with restrictions on
payments and loans to labor organizations) or section 501(c)
(relating to embezzlement from union funds), (D) any offense
involving fraud connected with a case under title 11 (except a case
under section 157 of this title), fraud in the sale of securities,
or the felonious manufacture, importation, receiving, concealment,
buying, selling, or otherwise dealing in a controlled substance or
listed chemical (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled
Substances Act), punishable under any law of the United States, (E)
any act which is indictable under the Currency and Foreign
Transactions Reporting Act, or (F) any act which is indictable under
the Immigration and Nationality Act, section 274 (relating to
bringing in and harboring certain aliens), section 277 (relating to
aiding or assisting certain aliens to enter the United States), or
section 278 (relating to importation of alien for immoral purpose)
if the act indictable under such section of such Act was committed
for the purpose of financial gain.
(2) ``State\'\' means any State of the United States, the District
of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, any territory or
possession of the United States, any political subdivision, or any
department, agency, or instrumentality thereof;
(3) ``person\'\' includes any individual or entity capable of
holding a legal or beneficial interest in property;
(4) ``enterprise\'\' includes any individual, partnership,
corporation, association, or other legal entity, and any union or
group of individuals associated in fact although not a legal entity;
(5) ``pattern of racketeering activity\'\' requires at least two
acts of racketeering activity, one of which occurred after the
effective date of this chapter and the last of which occurred within
ten years (excluding any period of imprisonment) after the
commission of a prior act of racketeering activity;
(6) ``unlawful debt\'\' means a debt (A) incurred or contracted in
gambling activity which was in violation of the law of the United
States, a State or political subdivision thereof, or which is
unenforceable under State or Federal law in whole or in part as to
principal or interest because of the laws relating to usury, and (B)
which was incurred in connection with the business of gambling in
violation of the law of the United States, a State or political
subdivision thereof, or the business of lending money or a thing of
value at a rate usurious under State or Federal law, where the
usurious rate is at least twice the enforceable rate;
(7) ``racketeering investigator\'\' means any attorney or
investigator so designated by the Attorney General and charged with
the duty of enforcing or carrying into effect this chapter;
(8) ``racketeering investigation\'\' means any inquiry conducted
by any racketeering investigator for the purpose of ascertaining
whether any person has been involved in any violation of this
chapter or of any final order, judgment, or decree of any court of
the United States, duly entered in any case or proceeding arising
under this chapter;
(9) ``documentary material\'\' includes any book, paper, document,
record, recording, or other material; and
(10) ``Attorney General\'\' includes the Attorney General of the
United States, the Deputy Attorney General of the United States, the
Associate Attorney General of the United States, any Assistant
Attorney General of the United States, or any employee of the
Department of Justice or any employee of any department or agency of
the United States so designated by the Attorney General to carry out
the powers conferred on the Attorney General by this chapter. Any
department or agency so designated may use in investigations
authorized by this chapter either the investigative provisions of
this chapter or the investigative power of such department or agency
otherwise conferred by law.
Sounds like it applies to organized street gangs to me.
-
U.S. hits drug empire
Raids target corporation-like street gang
By David Heinzmann and Todd Lighty, Tribune staff reporters. Tribune staff reporter Glenn Jeffers contributed to this report
May 14, 2004
With their leader in prison, top members of the Black Disciples were called to a South Side apartment building--"The Castle," the gang called it--to hear from their newly annointed "king."
He told the assembled drug dealers that if they played by the "BD law," they would prosper. Violators would be beaten or killed by the Vanguard, the enforcers of the gang.
Since that day in 1991, Marvel Thompson, 35, ran the Black Disciples gang as if it were a diversified corporation, hauling in drug profits--as much as $300,000 per day--which the gang laundered with investments, including apartment buildings, a rap record label called M.O.B., and a carwash and nightclub in Atlanta, federal prosecutors said Thursday.
Using a pirate transmitter to barge in on the FM frequency operated by a Christian radio station, the gang even broadcast "public service announcements" to their dealers, warning them when police were near, according to a 185-page indictment released Thursday by U.S. Atty. Patrick Fitzgerald.
The gang effectively took over a 16-story Chicago Housing Authority building, posting snipers on the roof to protect dealers making as much as $45,000 per day selling crack, cocaine and heroin inside, the prosecutors said. Lookouts were equipped with night-vision goggles, according to the complaint.
Thompson, a rap record producer, and 46 others were indicted this week on drug conspiracy charges after a six-year investigation led by Chicago police and the FBI.
Wearing helmets and wielding shotguns, police Wednesday stormed down the corridors of the red-brick Randolph Towers housing complex, where the gang was based, sometimes kicking in doors as they searched for suspects and scooped up $300,000 in cash.
More than 400 law enforcement officers were involved in the arrests of 32 suspects, including one in Phoenix, Ariz. Two others turned themselves in Thursday, and 13 of those indicted--including two top deputies to Thompson--remained at large Thursday, police said.
Law enforcement officials say the operation topples the hierarchy of one of Chicago\'s best organized street gangs, one that terrorized neighborhoods where they plied their trade.
"It was a very structured organization that tried to follow its own law and act as if it was its own nation right here in Chicago," Fitzgerald said. "The sales volume was frightening. . . . On one occasion, one of the outstanding members had $3 million in profits counted in a single night."
Prosecutors likened the investigation to the federal prosecution of the Gangster Disciples, whose drug dealing operations on the South Side reached an unparalleled level of organization, extending into political activity, before the leadership was convicted in the 1990s.
Originally part of the same organization, the Black Disciples split from the Black Gangster Disciple Nation after the 1974 death of founder David Barksdale opened a rift in the gang.
"This potentially can be completely devastating for the BDs, even more so than it was for the GDs," said Andrew Papachristos, a gang researcher who works for the University of Chicago and the National Gang Crime Research Center. However, jailing the leadership is unlikely to kill the whole organization, he said.
"That\'s the top down method, but what about from the bottom up? Now what happens in the neighborhoods? Are the BDs going to disappear? No. Are they going to stop dealing drugs? No. But you won\'t see as much of this corporate-style stuff," Papachristos said.
Thompson is registered with the state as president of M.O.B. Records Inc., which is based on the South Side and produces several rap music acts, including an Englewood artist, DJ Casper. Casper\'s "Cha-Cha Slide" became an international hit after its release in 2000.
Thompson also has a steady history of criminal cases in Cook County. He has a pending felony case for unlawful use of a firearm, stemming from a 2002 arrest when police approached him in Englewood and said he dropped a handgun and ran.
He also was convicted of murder in 1993, but acquitted two months later after a witness in the case recanted, saying that only Thompson\'s co-defendant, Alonzo Brooks, was involved in the 1990 shooting. Brooks is serving a 45-year sentence.
Dressed in an orange jumpsuit, Thompson appeared in federal court with 33 other defendants in the case, then spoke clearly and directly when asked by the judge if he understood the charges.
While the gang allegedly sold drugs from numerous locations across the South Side, the headquarters and most lucrative operations were at the Randolph Towers, 6217 S. Calumet Ave.
According to the indictment, members of the gang exercised such tight control over the building that they searched anyone who entered, including residents. Gang members once searched an undercover police officer who was wearing a bulletproof vest. When gang members felt the vest, one pulled out a gun and shot the officer in the back as he turned and ran. The officer survived the shooting, prosecutors said.
On Thursday, amid an increased police presence in the neighborhood, residents said that witnessing drug deals was a part of daily life. But many said gang members did not bother them as long as they didn\'t interfere.
"I don\'t mind their business," said a 30-year-old mother who asked that her name not be used. "That\'ll get you hurt."
Fitzgerald said the gang placed huge demands on membership for loyalty. Still, the case was built in part on the testimony of 26 informants, most of them Black Disciples insiders. In one case, one of the witnesses and his 6-year-old son were shot after gang members suspected that the man had testified before a grand jury.
Several of the informants are now in the federal witness protection program, according to a spokesman for Fitzgerald.
Although numerous members of the gang were arrested and charged with serious crimes over the last several years, prosecutors said, the organization continued to operate with a shocking level of audacity, including stealing the 104.7 FM frequency from a Christian radio station.
The frequency belongs to WCFL, a Christian oriented radio station with a studio in Morris that serves the southwest suburbs.
Station manager Chuck Pryor said station officials had been told several months ago that its frequency was being pirated on the South Side to play rap music that contained profane language.
The station filed a complaint with the Federal Communications Commission several months ago then filed a second one recently. Pryor said that he had no inkling that the pirate station was run by one of Chicago\'s most notorious street gangs but that he heard the broadcast recently while driving to Midway Airport.
As he drove north on South Cicero Avenue, near West 63rd Street, the gang\'s pirated radio signal had simply overpowered WCFL\'s. "At that point," Pryor said, "they had pretty much taken over our frequency. I heard a guy on the air using pretty foul language.
"The F-words we use are faith, family and fun," Pryor said. "That is not the F-word they were using."
Yea..I really think it fits....just as much as anti-terrorism laws.
-
Unfortunately, as often seems to happen in the states, you see new broad powers given to a law-enforcement organization for one reason, and shortly thereafter they are using it in other ways...
Federal prosecutors were being told how they could use some of the new search/seizure measures in the patriot act to combat drug selling/dealing by invoking harsher penalties, and getting around normal seizure and warrant procedures by labeling dealers terrorists. A laudable goal (reducing trafficking) to be sure, but definintely not the intention of the law when it was framed.. it simply didn\'t define things tight enough that it couldn\'t be misused.
Same in this case... I don\'t believe that street gangs are terrorists simply because they\'ve never been considered that way.. and I don\'t think they fit the dictionary definition that well either...
"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."
They aren\'t doing this for ideological/political reasons... they\'re doing this for the most common \'crime\' reason - money. Their intimidation of communities or people is not a primary purpose, it is secondary to their real purpose of selling drugs to make money, because it makes their crime \'safer\'.
-
Not going to read all this, but let me sum it up....
The words "terroist" and "terrosim" is the new catch phrase for American politics and that includes the criminal justice system. Expect a lot more of this spin-doctoring and abuse of laws.
-
Originally posted by TSina
Twisting laws intended for one purpose so you can use them for another is a disgrace.
well, unfrotuntaley, thats the way its been for a long time-Not that it makes it right. Laws are made and lawmakers twist and break those laws.
-
Originally posted by MPTheory
well, unfrotuntaley, thats the way its been for a long time-Not that it makes it right. Laws are made and lawmakers twist and break those laws.
Except for in this instance they aren\'t breaking any laws, and the people fit the description.
-
ONLY after 9/11
Can you not see that all this post 9/11 shit is working it\'s way into other aspects?
I bet they never would have been charged with anti-terrorist laws had 9/11 hadnt happend.
-
If 9/11 hadn\'t happened they wouldn\'t have the same anti-terror laws, or the patriot act for that matter... so nope. The fact that 9/11 marked a shift in governmental response doesn\'t make that shift right... or one I think most people support.
-
Originally posted by TSina
I bet they never would have been charged with anti-terrorist laws had 9/11 hadnt happend.
Damn right they wouldnt have. I just want to know what the reasoning is. Do you think that they use these laws to validate other laws / create new ones?
-
damn i\'ve been gone for several days and i\'m tryin to catch up here...anyway it\'s silly to charde them with terrorism...they\'re not sending a message...it\'s just plain retarded...i even heard that they might let the only guy they have in custody for the 911 attacks go...forgot his name but THAT is somebody the law actually applies to...it completlely baffles me how the u.s. court system works...