PSX5Central
Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Coredweller on August 11, 2004, 11:03:03 AM
-
The French government is doing a good deal of work for us by cracking down on islamic nationalists. It seems the United States is not the only country salivating at the thought of eroding civil liberties and freedom of speech. Napoleonic law is a bit different from our system so it\'s hard to compare, but you get the idea. Isn\'t this the kind of behavior you pro-war, pro-security zealots would applaud?
I have no idea why so many conservative americans love to whine about France just because they couldn\'t see any logical reason to invade Iraq. :) Their point of view is not that hard to understand. They are interested in looking after themselves and their own citizens, first and foremost. Our leaders claim to do the same for US citizens, but don\'t. Invading Iraq hasn\'t made our nation more secure. It has had the opposite effect.Fighting Words
France Moves Fast
To Expel Muslims
Preaching Hatred[/size]
In Bid to Pre-Empt Terror,
Nation Targets 8 Imams;
Law Hits Legal Residents
Sent to Turkey After 28 Years
By JOHN CARREYROU
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
August 9, 2004; Page A1
COURTRY, France -- Mihdat Guler was 17 years old when he moved here from his native Turkey to find work in 1976. Over time, he saved enough money to buy a tidy house in this middle-class Paris suburb, where he lived a quiet life as a legal immigrant with his wife and five children.
One afternoon three months ago, Mr. Guler learned he had overstayed his welcome. Police stopped his van as he was returning from selling sewing supplies at an outdoor market and arrested him. Within a few weeks, he was on a flight to Istanbul, unsure when he would see his family again.
The French government\'s accusation: Mr. Guler was preaching hatred and violence against the West at a Muslim prayer room in Paris. It also alleges that he belongs to a group that seeks an Islamic state in Turkey. Mr. Guler denies the government\'s allegations.
If Mr. Guler had been French, he would have had the chance to defend himself at a trial. But as a foreigner, he fell under a 1945 law that allowed the government to deport him as an urgent security threat.
France has taken one of the hardest lines of any Western country in fighting Islamic extremism. Other democracies, including the U.S., have been criticized for excessive methods, such as holding prisoners in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. But few have been as systematic and zealous as France in attempting to stamp out Islamic militancy.
Mr. Guler is one of eight Muslim men France has expelled this year on the ground that they are preachers who foment anti-Western sentiment and violence in their sermons. These imams often have little religious education but a big influence over Muslim youths, the French government says.
"Today, one can no longer separate terrorist acts from the words that feed them," Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin recently told the French Council of the Muslim Faith, an organization created last year to represent the interests of France\'s Muslims.
....
In April, the Interior Ministry expelled Abdelkader Yahia Cherif, a 35-year-old Algerian who preached at a prayer room in Brest, a port city on France\'s northwestern coast. France alleged that Mr. Cherif was recruiting young Arab men to a radical brand of Islam known as Salafism, which advocates a literal, inflexible interpretation of the Quran. The government contended Mr. Cherif had incited violence in his neighborhood since arriving four years earlier, including a fire at a town hall.
The order justifying his expulsion said Mr. Cherif had rejoiced over the Madrid bombings in sermons, and cited an interview he gave to a newspaper in which he said there was "no absolute proof" Islamists had been involved in either the Sept. 11 or the Madrid attacks.
David Rajjou, Mr. Cherif\'s lawyer, says his client acknowledges being a Salafist but denies the other accusations. Mr. Cherif didn\'t intend to excuse the Sept. 11 or Madrid attacks but only to question whether Islamists were really behind them, the lawyer says.
...
There is more to the article, and I\'ll post it if anyone is interested.
-
The French government\'s accusation: Mr. Guler was preaching hatred and violence against the West at a Muslim prayer room in Paris. It also alleges that he belongs to a group that seeks an Islamic state in Turkey. Mr. Guler denies the government\'s allegations.
Of course he\'d deny it. :)
-
Its good to see French/American relations are a bit better and that they are getting in on the good fight.
-
Originally posted by Coredweller
I have no idea why so many conservative americans love to whine about France just because they couldn\'t see any logical reason to invade Iraq. :) Their point of view is not that hard to understand. They are interested in looking after themselves and their own citizens, first and foremost. Our leaders claim to do the same for US citizens, but don\'t. Invading Iraq hasn\'t made our nation more secure. It has had the opposite effect.
-
I have no idea why so many conservative americans love to whine about France just because they couldn\'t see any logical reason to invade Iraq. Their point of view is not that hard to understand. They are interested in looking after themselves and their own citizens, first and foremost. Our leaders claim to do the same for US citizens, but don\'t. Invading Iraq hasn\'t made our nation more secure. It has had the opposite effect.
*recalls how Israel launched an airstrike against Iraq\'s nuclear facilities coz Saddam bragged about using it against Israel*
And now Iran has missiles that can reach Israel. I say...you liberals go to Iran and rally to make them stop.
-
Ahhhh, they\'re just trying to get on our good side.
-
Originally posted by GmanJoe
*recalls how Israel launched an airstrike against Iraq\'s nuclear facilities coz Saddam bragged about using it against Israel*
And now Iran has missiles that can reach Israel. I say...you liberals go to Iran and rally to make them stop.
And I say screw Israel. The only reason they are so belligerent toward the Palestinians is because we support them with arms and training. If we had not been their sugar daddy for so long, they would have been forced to make peace with their neighbors 20 years ago, and they wouldn\'t have anything to worry about from Iran, Iraq, etc. Their borders would be stable, and there would be no ongoing whining about the "palestinian struggle."
-
Originally posted by Coredweller
And I say screw Israel. The only reason they are so belligerent toward the Palestinians is because we support them with arms and training. If we had not been their sugar daddy for so long, they would have been forced to make peace with their neighbors 20 years ago, and they wouldn\'t have anything to worry about from Iran, Iraq, etc. Their borders would be stable, and there would be no ongoing whining about the "palestinian struggle."
that sums up the israleli/palestinian war perfectly...
-
Originally posted by Coredweller
If we had not been their sugar daddy for so long, they would have been forced to make peace with their neighbors 20 years ago, and they wouldn\'t have anything to worry about from Iran, Iraq, etc. Their borders would be stable, and there would be no ongoing whining about the "palestinian struggle."
Wrong. If we wouldn\'t have supported Israel, Israel would have been defeated in the first Arab Israeli War. It was the Arabs (including the PALS) who jointly attacked Israel without provication.
In addition the members of the Arab League with the exception of Jordan and Egypt (after they were defeated) have denied Israels right to exist and have sworn its destruction since its creation so for you to say they would have been forced to make peace is incorrect - it is the Arabs who have been "forced to make peace" because they had their collective asses handed to them numerous times.
The Arabs are the ones who can\'t handle the fact that a Jewish state exists in the Middle East. You want to talk about intolerance?
A day after the declaration of independence of the State of Israel, armies of five Arab countries, Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, invaded Israel. This marked the beginning of the War of Independence. Arab states have jointly waged four full scale wars against Israel:
1948 War of Independence
1956 Sinai War
1967 Six Day War
1973 Yom Kippur War
Despite the numerical superiority of the Arab armies, Israel defended itself each time and won. After each war Israeli army withdrew from most of the areas it captured (see maps). This is unprecedented in World history and shows Israel\'s willingness to reach peace even at the risk of fighting for its very existence each time anew.
http://www.science.co.il/Israel-history.asp
FOUR times they have trusted the Arabs and 4 times the Arabs have broken their promises. Israel is completely justified in what it does and the we are justified in the support we give them.
-
I was not referring to the wars you cited. BTW, they were not all as one-sided as you made them out to be. Since the 80\'s, not even Israel required the level of military assistance we\'ve been giving them to maintain a reasonable defensive position.
I was referring to Israel\'s passive aggressive activities in the past 20 years, building settlements in the occupied territories. Maintaining those settlements is only possible through use of overwhelming force, and they serve no purpose except to increase the tension and piss off arabs. BOTH sides of this conflict have thrown away opportunities to create a stable border and build a long lasting peace. One side COULD have made it happen if they had tried harder and not had the benefit of our endless logistical assistance.
-
You are mistaken. The Arabs pissed away their chances numerous times and you have to go back beyond 20 years to gain an appreciation for the situation. Limiting yourself some imaginary 20 year window is not realistic when they have fought 4 wars 30 years before that! The Arabs still vow to destroy Israel - Iraq did under Saddam, Syria and even Iran have pledged to do so.
The really ironic part (I have said this before on these forums) is that the PALS had the best of everything prior to launching their offensive with the help of other Arab nations.
The PALS had the best land and a majority of it - they wanted it all and now have nothing - they should receive to pity for their intolerance and greed. Arafat has vowed to destroy Israel again and again and you want Israel to compromise with him? :rolleyes:
If I were the Israeli\'s I wouldn\'t trust the Arabs either as they have proven to be dishonest and hostile time and again over the simple right of Israel\'s existance.
-
I hope Iran launches a few missiles at Israel...
Then, Israel can obliterate them...
-
I am waiting for Israel to launch a pre emptive strike on Iran\'s nuclear development facilities in the very near future.
-
I am waiting for Israel to launch a pre emptive strike on Iran\'s nuclear development facilities in the very near future.
-
Originally posted by GigaShadow
The really ironic part (I have said this before on these forums) is that the PALS had the best of everything prior to launching their offensive with the help of other Arab nations.
The PALS had the best land and a majority of it - they wanted it all and now have nothing - they should receive to pity for their intolerance and greed. Arafat has vowed to destroy Israel again and again and you want Israel to compromise with him? :rolleyes:
If I were the Israeli\'s I wouldn\'t trust the Arabs either as they have proven to be dishonest and hostile time and again over the simple right of Israel\'s existance.
So to your way of thinking, the Arabs will endlessly kill Jews, and the Jews should endlessly kill Arabs? Can\'t change an Arab, so what point is there? Let\'s just keep pouring weapons into Israel and see what happens.... ?
BOTH SIDES have thrown away opportunities at peace, not just the arabs. I agree there are many arabs who would like to overrun Israel. There is also an conservative orthodox group in Israel that hates arabs and would very much like to wipe them out as well.
Making points like "It\'s their own fault" and "They made their bed now they can sleep in it" are useless statements. They don\'t solve the problem. Some day someone is going to have to step up and take a rational action to end this nonsense. Someone is going to have to concede something to resolve it. I agree that we can\'t count on the Palestinians to do that. They don\'t have the leadership and administrative structure to make it stick. That means the Israelis have to do it. Even if it\'s not fair, or it makes them look weak, THEY HAVE TO DO IT.
-
Originally posted by clips
that sums up the israleli/palestinian war perfectly...
No it doesn\'t! Then again....that\'s your opinion. :)
-
Originally posted by GmanJoe
No it doesn\'t! Then again....that\'s your opinion. :)
i\'d comment on that,..but i really can\'t since i don\'t have that much knowledge of the history between the two countries to really speak on it...to be fair tho giga actually put forth to me a very informed & detailed history of the two countries and it was actually very well informed...
the conclusion i came to was that the palestinians did own their land..went to war with israel & lost..and ever since then have been trying to get their lost land back...in a nutshell..correct me if i\'m wrong...
-
Originally posted by Coredweller
So to your way of thinking, the Arabs will endlessly kill Jews, and the Jews should endlessly kill Arabs? Can\'t change an Arab, so what point is there? Let\'s just keep pouring weapons into Israel and see what happens.... ?
BOTH SIDES have thrown away opportunities at peace, not just the arabs. I agree there are many arabs who would like to overrun Israel. There is also an conservative orthodox group in Israel that hates arabs and would very much like to wipe them out as well.
Making points like "It\'s their own fault" and "They made their bed now they can sleep in it" are useless statements. They don\'t solve the problem. Some day someone is going to have to step up and take a rational action to end this nonsense. Someone is going to have to concede something to resolve it. I agree that we can\'t count on the Palestinians to do that. They don\'t have the leadership and administrative structure to make it stick. That means the Israelis have to do it. Even if it\'s not fair, or it makes them look weak, THEY HAVE TO DO IT.
The Israelis can\'t afford to take that chance - the Arabs outnumber them 5 to 1 if not more and it wouldn\'t take long for a good attack to completely overrun Israel. Why do you think almost everyone who lives there is part of the armed forces and carries their automatic rifle even when in civilian dress?
I think if more governments like Egypts and Jordans were in place Israel might be a little more trusting. As of now with Syria and Iran preaching Israel has no right to exist I don\'t see Israel chaning their stance - I can\'t blame them.
-
Originally posted by clips
the conclusion i came to was that the palestinians did own their land..went to war with israel & lost..and ever since then have been trying to get their lost land back...in a nutshell..correct me if i\'m wrong...
You are pretty much right. Other Arab countries like Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon are to blame as well. They promised the PALS that they would remove the Jewish state and told them to evacuate right before they attacked. Most left and when all was said and done they didn\'t have a home to go back to.
Some countries have recognized Israels right to exist such as Jordan and Egypt - in return, Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt which was very strategic due to the Suez Canal being in the proximity of it.
Now states like Syria, Iraq previous to Saddam being removed and Iran have resorted to other methods like sponsoring terrorism by either providing direct aid (Syria) or rewarding acts of terrorism (Iraq) against Israel.
I just don\'t see how Core can say Israel should be the grownup here when it is not Israel that is causing the problems. Though I don\'t agree with them building settlements in the West Bank, I think the overall Arab attitude toward Israel is the main hurdle blocking any lasting peace in the Middle East.
-
Originally posted by GigaShadow
I am waiting for Israel to launch a pre emptive strike on Iran\'s nuclear development facilities in the very near future.
Iran Tests Missile Capable of Hitting Israel
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040811/wl_nm/iran_missile_test_dc_12
" Iran said on Wednesday it carried out a successful field test of the latest version of its Shahab-3 medium-range ballistic missile, which defense experts say can reach Israel or U.S. bases in the Gulf."
[...]
"If Israel behaves like a lunatic and attacks the Iranian nation\'s interests, we will come down on their heads like a mallet and break their bones," the ISNA students news agency quoted Revolutionary Guards Commander Yahya Rahim Safavi as saying on Wednesday.
-
Originally posted by clips
i\'d comment on that,..but i really can\'t since i don\'t have that much knowledge of the history between the two countries to really speak on it...to be fair tho giga actually put forth to me a very informed & detailed history of the two countries and it was actually very well informed...
the conclusion i came to was that the palestinians did own their land..went to war with israel & lost..and ever since then have been trying to get their lost land back...in a nutshell..correct me if i\'m wrong...
The Israelites occupied that land long before anyone. They were taken away by the Babylonians and later the Egyptians. Many were able to make it back to Israel. Then the Romans took over. After the fall of the Roman empire, Israel had no army to defend them when it was occupied by the Muslims (Palestinians today).
Now, in 1947, Israel was formed for the 3rd time. This was mentioned in the Bible\'s Apocalypse. Yeah....one of the signs has been fulfilled. :) Anyway, Israelites, with the help of England, formed its current state.
-
The funny thing is, England promised, under one treaty, to give Israel to the Israelis. Then under another treaty, they promised it to the Arabs.
-
The French govenment must think the Germans are cooking up something again so they are trying to get on our good side :)
-
I for one dont like the fact we support Isreal so much. Sure, nobody is playing nicely but Israel is playing dirty. We give them tons of money and completely ignore our advice. Such as the wall they built. Then (according to sailors) they attacked one of our ships hoping to attack another country. I forgot the story but thats ****ed up.
And I really hope they keep fighting till I die, cuz I dont want the apocalypse to happen in my lifetime.... :(
-
"If Israel behaves like a lunatic and attacks the Iranian nation\'s interests, we will come down on their heads like a mallet and break their bones,"
What kind of dumbass would say that? I didn\'t know Iran lets 5th graders hold such high positions in the military.
-
It probably sounds more respectable in arabic. :)
-
Originally posted by THX
What kind of dumbass would say that? I didn\'t know Iran lets 5th graders hold such high positions in the military.
But Israel can reach them if they wanted to. Iran (Iraq would have gotten it eventually but....well, you know what happened) having the nuclear weapon would definitely use that to muscle Israel into some kind of BS treaty.
-
Doesn\'t Israel have nukes? I heard somewhere they did but I\'m not sure if its true. Can someone clear that up for me?
-
Yes, they do...
A big reason why their dumbass neighbors don\'t attack them...
-
Originally posted by Titan
Doesn\'t Israel have nukes? I heard somewhere they did but I\'m not sure if its true. Can someone clear that up for me?
Yes, which they tried to keep secret. But they were made public thanks to this man.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncca.org.au%2F__data%2Fpage%2F480%2Fvanunu.jpg&hash=bf7c41022e23536d13809bf46f450dd276c003c3)
Mordechai Vanunu
Israel refuses to let weapons inspectors into its country (unlike Iran).
IIRC, Israel is the only country which has threatened to use nuclear weapons on its neighbours if attacked.
Some countries are allowed to make threats it seems and get accepted. :)
-
Originally posted by fastson
Israel refuses to let weapons inspectors into its country (unlike Iran).
IIRC, Israel is the only country which has threatened to use nuclear weapons on its neighbours if attacked.
Some countries are allowed to make threats it seems and get accepted. :)
Why should they be inspected? They are surrounded by enemies who have vowed their destruction - Israel is only insuring that if they are attacked it will be a mutual destruction just like the US/USSR Cold War. It is a detant.
Comparing Israel to Iran is ridiculous. One is a democracy the other is a fanatical theocracy.
-
Originally posted by GigaShadow
Comparing Israel to Iran is ridiculous. One is a democracy the other is a fanatical theocracy.
I do not think the US would oppose a country which supports democracy in this type of situation
basically, giga nailed it.
-
Did you mean deterrent, giga?
Anyways, Giga is totaly right about this one -- Israel has even been simultaneously attacked by the nations surrounding it and barely held its own. Their nuclear arsenal is just one for defense. If they wanted to maliciously put an end to their enemies surrounding them, they most certainly could, but thankfully, the US and Russia watches over that little region of the world very carefully and more then likely, if everyone around Israel dissapeared, so would Israel.
Not to mention of course the vast majority of the weapons that Israel has are weapons that we gave to them. Hardly worth taking a second look at.
-
Since they refuse even to confirm (or deny?) they have nuclear weapons, I doubt we will see any inspectors soon (even though the world demands it).