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Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: GigaShadow on September 21, 2004, 04:34:22 AM
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Canada Plans Draft-Dodger Monument
Tuesday, September 21, 2004
NELSON, British Columbia — After burning their draft cards during the Vietnam War, tens of thousands of Americans avoided jail by fleeing to Canada.
Many settled in the small town of Nelson, British Columbia (search), just across the Washington state border. Now, 30 years later, the mayor of Nelson and some other Canadians are planning to honor the draft dodgers with a two-day festival and a larger-than-life monument depicting a Canadian helping two scared American men.
Though the festival and statue unveiling are still two years away, the war of words is just beginning.
Veterans of Foreign Wars (search) leaders are outraged by the monument, as are others in the United States who see the plan as a slap in the face. Some have written to Nelson officials to say they’ll never visit the town again.
The Canadian government did nothing to discourage Americans from heading north of the border so many years ago. In fact, then Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau (search) rolled out the red carpet, saying the draft dodgers had his complete sympathy.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132971,00.html
Uh oh another Fox News link
;)
You would think Canadians have better things to do like spend money on National Health Care - as opposed to erecting monuments to cowards.
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The guy in my avatar gave sanctuary to American GI\'s who deserted from Vietnam. :)
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He is a criminal.
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Right.
Damn, I\'d love to see our current PM pull something like that today. :D
About Canada.. +1 Canada. ;)
Estonia (I think it was) raised a monument over the Estonians who fought with the Germans against the Soviet occupation. The monument had to be taken down though, because some people reacted over the German uniform on the monument. :rolleyes:
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We have an all volunteer army now - thus no draft dodgers. :rolleyes:
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Giving sanctuary to soliders has nothing to do with them being volunteer or not. :)
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If you volunteer why would you desert? Yes, I know it happens even today, but it is very rare. Your argument is pointless because it would never happen, but if it did for the sake of arguement on any large scale - "I\'d love to see our PM pull something like that today." - Yeah I would too... the invasion of Sweden by US forces for harboring US deserters. ;) Just for fun lets say all of our troops in Iraq alone decided to desert to Sweden - your pseudo socialist country couldn\'t handle the influx of so many people at once who:
1. Don\'t speak your language
2. Make up a group larger than your entire army - which could be interesting... since they are breaking the law anyway, why not take over Sweden!
Anyway, back to reality - it is one thing to "dodge" a draft - it is completely different to go AWOL. Just ask that Korean War deserter who was trying to hide out in Japan. They will eventually catch up with you - sooner or later. Both are wrong, but one is definitely worse than the other.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
If you volunteer why would you desert? Yes, I know it happens even today, but it is very rare. Your argument is pointless because it would never happen, but if it did for the sake of arguement on any large scale - "I\'d love to see our PM pull something like that today." - Yeah I would too... the invasion of Sweden by US forces for harboring US deserters. ;)
Also it is one thing to "dodge" a draft - it is completely different to go AWOL. Just ask that Korean War deserter who was trying to hide out in Japan. They will eventually catch up with you - sooner or later. Both are wrong, but one is definitely worse than the other.
LOL :D
I see what you mean (our current PM is too much of a "bend-in-the-wind" guy anyway, thats why I said "I\'d love to see our current PM pull something like that today"), and yes I know the difference. :)
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If America opened it\'s arms to people from another country who were trying to avoid being forced by a dictator to fight in a war, We would think of ourselves as "God\'s Country" helping the unfortunate. When it\'s another country opening it\'s arms for Americans avoiding war, we think they are jerks.
:confused:
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Hence we aren\'t a dictatorship.
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How dodging the draft automatically makes you a coward I don\'t know. What if you just didn\'t believe in the cause you were being force to fight for? I mean, if it were me, no way I\'d go to Vietnam, but I would go to a war like World War II. *shrug*
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Do what you\'re told. Submit to authority. Go to a pointless unjust war that was started with a ruse, then kill and die so that GE can increase their stock value. I guess if you don\'t go along with it, that makes you a coward to some people.
The Vietnam war was wrong, and as much as the conservative forces of this nation would like to rewrite history and turn it into some great patriotic enterprise, IT\'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN. It was our second greatest national fiasco behind the annihilation of the Indians. As far as I\'m concerned, if you served in Vietnam, that\'s fine. I will never say a word against a vietnam veteran, but they shouldn\'t talk shit about people who had the balls to avoid that war.
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Originally posted by Coredweller
Do what you\'re told. Submit to authority. Go to a pointless unjust war that was started with a ruse, then kill and die so that GE can increase their stock value. I guess if you don\'t go along with it, that makes you a coward to some people.
The Vietnam war was wrong, and as much as the conservative forces of this nation would like to rewrite history and turn it into some great patriotic enterprise, IT\'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN. It was our second greatest national fiasco behind the annihilation of the Indians. As far as I\'m concerned, if you served in Vietnam, that\'s fine. I will never say a word against a vietnam veteran, but they shouldn\'t talk shit about people who had the balls to avoid that war.
Conservative forces?? Who exactly got us (the US) into that war? John F. Kennedy. Who escalated our involvement in that war? Lyndon B. Johnson - both Demorats. Who had a plan for pulling out of Vietnam? Richard Nixon - a Republican. The hypocracy of your claim about rewriting history is laughable.
Yeah Core, it took real "balls" to go ROTC (Run Off To Canada) in a VW Bus held together by bong water and pigeon $hit. :rolleyes:
Personally, I think they should have been stripped of their citizenship.
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Yes, I blame Lyndon Johnson for the war. I\'m sure he\'s writhing in hell right now. There\'s no telling what Kennedy would have done if he had lived. Our force in Vietnam was tiny at the time of his death. Nixon took office in January 1969. His "plan for pulling out" was bullshit to get himself elected. He continued the escalation.
This is not a "Democrat vs. Republican" argument they way you\'d like to see it. My problem is with all these prowar, prodefense, promiliary kooks who are trying to rewrite history to make Vietnam look like a good idea. Both parties were to blame. The Corporations were to blame. The so-called military industrial complex was to blame. The whole thing was a mistake. Those who chose not to participate in the mistake are not cowards.
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Originally posted by Coredweller
Nixon took office in January 1969. His "plan for pulling out" was bullshit to get himself elected. He continued the escalation.
Really?
December 31st 1968 - American military strength in South Vietnam is 536,100
December 31st 1969 - US troop strength in South Vietnam is 474,000.
December 31st 1970 - American military
strength in South Vietnam is 335,800.
August 12th 1972 - The last American ground combat troops leave South Vietnam; 43,500
airmen and support personnel remain.
November 30, 1972 - American troop withdrawal from Vietnam is completed, although there are still 16,000 Army advisors and administrators remaining to assist South Vietnam\'s military forces.
Bullshit huh? Going from half a million to 16,000 is escalating right? Learn your history.
http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1969.html
Originally posted by Coredweller
My problem is with all these prowar, prodefense, promiliary kooks who are trying to rewrite history to make Vietnam look like a good idea. Both parties were to blame. The Corporations were to blame. The so-called military industrial complex was to blame. The whole thing was a mistake. Those who chose not to participate in the mistake are not cowards.
This had nothing to do with corporations or the "military industrial complex". You are missing the big picture - this war was a part of the Cold War that went hot. A mistake, I would have to say yes as our own policies handcuffed us so victory was not possible. Coupled with a S. Vietnamese government/people that wanted the US to do all of their fighting and dying for them.
As for those burning their draft cards and running away to Canada - it was the fashionable, rebellious thing to do in those days. :rolleyes: Drugs and sex as opposed to fighting in Vietnam - yeah that takes guts.
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You are correct that the number of US soldiers committed to the Vietnam conflict reduced during Nixon\'s term. Everyone knows that and everyone knows when we finally evacuated... however, our airwar and bombing campaign against N Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia increased dramatically from 1969 to 1972. That is what so many in the United States hated about Nixon. He claimed he had a secret plan to end the war, but then it resulted in much greater bloodletting on the part of the Vietnamese. If escalation isn\'t the word you like, then Whatever you want to call it... we reduced our troop strength, while increasing the slaughter of civilians using B-52 strikes.
NONE OF THIS WAS THE POINT. You endlessly paint everything as as Republican vs. Democrat, and you seem to love defending any republican president, including Nixon, however it\'s all beside the point. This was not simply a "cold war that went hot." It didn\'t happen by accident. We manufactured that war by staging a fake attack on the USS Maddox, propping up a false government in S. Vietnam that the vietnamese hated, and continuing to pour resources and lives into the war beyond the point of sanity.
I find it amazing when someone says "our own policies handcuffed us so victory was not possible." What should we have done differently? We should have killed more vietnamese, burned more houses, napalmed more children? Yeah, they would all be dead, but at least they wouldn\'t be communists!
I\'m not going to post anymore today because I don\'t have the time. I actually have a job to do, and I can\'t be spending all my time writing stuff that will fall on deaf ears.
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Originally posted by Coredweller
You are correct that the number of US soldiers committed to the Vietnam conflict reduced during Nixon\'s term. Everyone knows that and everyone knows when we finally evacuated... however, our airwar and bombing campaign against N Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia increased dramatically from 1969 to 1972. That is what so many in the United States hated about Nixon. He claimed he had a secret plan to end the war, but then it resulted in much greater bloodletting on the part of the Vietnamese. If escalation isn\'t the word you like, then Whatever you want to call it... we reduced our troop strength, while increasing the slaughter of civilians using B-52 strikes.
Again... why did we increase our bombing attacks on N. Vietnam? To get them back to the Peace talks in Paris that they walked out on. Guess what? It worked didn\'t it?
Originally posted by Coredweller
NONE OF THIS WAS THE POINT. You endlessly paint everything as as Republican vs. Democrat, and you seem to love defending any republican president, including Nixon, however it\'s all beside the point. This was not simply a "cold war that went hot." It didn\'t happen by accident. We manufactured that war by staging a fake attack on the USS Maddox, propping up a false government in S. Vietnam that the vietnamese hated, and continuing to pour resources and lives into the war beyond the point of sanity.
I find it amazing when someone says "our own policies handcuffed us so victory was not possible." What should we have done differently? We should have killed more vietnamese, burned more houses, napalmed more children? Yeah, they would all be dead, but at least they wouldn\'t be communists!
I\'m not going to post anymore today because I don\'t have the time. I actually have a job to do, and I can\'t be spending all my time writing stuff that will fall on deaf ears.
I am so tired of giving history lessons - especially to people I know are educated. In any case, take a good look at the French colonial government that laid the groundwork for this entire fiasco:
May 8, 1954 - The Geneva Conference on Indochina begins, attended by the U.S., Britain, China, the Soviet Union, France, Vietnam (Viet Minh and representatives of Bao Dai), Cambodia and Laos, all meeting to negotiate a solution for Southeast Asia.
July 21, 1954 - The Geneva Accords divide Vietnam in half at the 17th parallel, with Ho Chi Minh\'s Communists ceded the North, while Bao Dai\'s regime is granted the South. The accords also provide for elections to be held in all of Vietnam within two years to reunify the country. The U.S. opposes the unifying elections, fearing a likely victory by Ho Chi Minh.
October 1954 - Following the French departure from Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh returns after spending eight years hiding in the jungle and formally takes control of North Vietnam.
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Damn gun ho bastards. I wont get into it really but i can see points from both sides but if anything im with cored on his basic argument. Screw fighting somebodyelse\'s war.
Im not all about cowardice but if its really against what you believe in then i suppose they should have that right. Its not like we won vietnam anyway. We won nothing and people still try to defend the fact that going was just the righ and/or manly thing to do.
W.e. im getting too into it.
You can get the basics on where i stand.
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Originally posted by fastson
The guy in my avatar gave sanctuary to American GI\'s who deserted from Vietnam. :)
i thought that guy was felix unger (tony randall),..from the odd couple! :confused:
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At least we learned from our mistakes :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
We have an all volunteer army now - thus no draft dodgers. :rolleyes:
There is all this talk in the media about the draft coming back.
I don\'t think it will but you can\'t put nothing pass the U.S. government so you never know.
I am on disibility anyways draft free.
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Originally posted by QuDDus
There is all this talk in the media about the draft coming back.
I don\'t think it will but you can\'t put nothing pass the U.S. government so you never know.
I am on disibility anyways draft free.
All the draft talk is coming from the left as a fear tactic. Charlie Rangel is the father of this and for only one reason, to create fear.
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Originally posted by Ace
All the draft talk is coming from the left as a fear tactic. Charlie Rangel is the father of this and for only one reason, to create fear.
The left has no shame. They are talking about this at moveon.org and they even know its a hoax, but they are using it as a fear tactic to get people to vote for Kerry.
The draft will never come back.
For those who don\'t know, as Ace said - Charlie Rangel has sponsored a bill for the draft and he is a Democrat.
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I\'ve heard Kerry wants the draft and that Bush wants the draft. This is rediculous. Probably a fear tactic on both sides.
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Both parties as far as im concerned are using fear tactics.
again with the left and right. I think im about done on that.
c\'est la vie (a little french for you right wing bastards:p. j/k)
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There is some intelligence north of the border after all!
Canadian City Blocks Memorial to U.S. Draft Dodgers
Wed Sep 29, 7:16 PM ET World - Canada
VANCOUVER, British Columbia (Reuters) - A Canadian community has blocked plans for a controversial memorial to Americans who fled to Canada to avoid the Vietnam War and U.S. military draft, officials said on Wednesday.
Peace activists wanted to build the memorial as part of a reunion celebration scheduled for 2006 in Nelson, a small city in the mountains of southeastern British Columbia, where many of the Vietnam-era draft dodgers eventually settled.
The proposal was denounced by the U.S. Veterans of Foreign Wars, and came as the issue of service in the military during Vietnam has become an emotional flashpoint in the U.S. presidential campaign.
Nelson\'s council passed a special resolution on Wednesday that would requires any memorial using public funds or being built on public lands to have "widespread community support."
"The Our Way Home monument does not meet this standard," the council said in a press release.
The veterans group and other U.S. critics of the plan had asked the White House to intervene, and threatened to organize an economic boycott of the Nelson area in the Kootenay Region, which has a significant tourism industry.
The Our Way Home group had already told city officials it was willing to locate the bronze sculpture somewhere else, but still planned to hold the peace gathering in July 2006.
The group said it wanted to honor both the U.S. citizens who moved to Canada, rather than serve in a war they politically opposed, and the Canadians who helped them build lives in a new country.
It has been estimated that 125,000 Americans fled to Canada to avoid Vietnam and prosecution under U.S. law, although about half returned home after President Jimmy Carter granted amnesty in 1997.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040929/wl_canada_nm/canada_life_draftdodgers_col_1