PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Ginko on October 02, 2004, 10:45:41 PM
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orginally posted by mm
i blame you, and gamers like you for the state that console gaming has become
[sarcasm]
It was recently brought to my attention that the state of the gaming world is not what it used to be. What I could gather from the ravings is that the console gaming industry has in fact become worse and it’s my fault. I don’t share this burden alone though, apparently anyone who’s enjoying their consoles is equally to blame.
You’re probably asking yourself, “what did I do, and more importantly how can I fix it?”. We’re in this together and I’m going to try and help you through this most confusing and difficult time. Please bare with me.
Since all I could gather is that the industry is just plain worse I don’t have any concise or valid reasons that you are probably seeking. All I can tell you is what I’ve done over the past few years that have led up to this unraveling of what used to be gaming.
The concept I had for purchasing my games is a simple one, you’ve probably done the same yourself. I’d simply see a game that struck my interest, I figured it was worth a closer examination so I’d try to find out more. Previews, reviews, or any source available that would make my purchase all the more confident. Once I felt comfortable with said purchase I extended my arm at the local game store to secure my own copy, buying what I thought to be a good game. More often than not my assumptions were correct and I found myself benefitting from my curiousness and research. This process was repeated many times and I’ve collected well over 50 games this generation. If only I’d known my happiness came at the expense of the demise of gaming...sigh.
You’re probably screaming out of guilt right now, “PLEASE, tell me how to help!”. The solution is simple, you must stop enjoying your games...better yet, just stop buying them all together! Yes, forget the Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Grand Theft Auto, Halo, Zelda, and Mario games. You may have had a blast but the party is over. We’ve been too consumed with enjoying the games of today and we simply can’t tolerate it any more.
Gone are the days when you can simply purchase a game and like it. You MUST take into consideration what the end product could have been and appropriately degrade your liking for the game in question. You must also do this without having played it.
[/sarcasm]
How does that make sense?
It doesn\'t.
Is there really a problem?
No.
Can I go back to simply enjoying my games?
Please do.:cool:
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Who said the quote above?
1st I would think to blame is all the pirates, which wasn\'t a problem 6+ years ago. But if no one pirated and young gamers simply didn\'t buy the games or forced their parents to get it for them would we still be where we\'re at now?
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well, I\'m a happy gamer on the whole. I enjoy gaming and usually don\'t blame developers for small short coming...unless the game completly sucks (looks at 989 3DO) And if I make a bad purchase, even after reading all the reviews, that\'s what ebay is for ;)
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mm said it..
Gaming will and has always been the same.. The good with the bad. New technologies are always expensive and games would still be expensive even if people didn\'t pirate them. Why, so developers can make the shit loads they want. Hell DVDs had been out for quite some time before DVD burners were on the market and they were and are still expensive...
Want to blame someone mm, blame developers for hyping games up, and blame yourself for believing them, then jump out of a 100 story high window and do the world a major favor.
You really believe that crappy games would stop coming out if people stopped buying them, hell who are you to say whats crap and whats not. Thats always going to be a opinion based thing. Don\'t like it, don\'t buy it.
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Why do you guys bother? It\'s not like any of this really gets through to mm.
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gaming today is shit
it\'s depressing you guys don\'t (refuse) to understand
makes me want to vomit
soully, please set that grass hut you live on fire, thanks
/applaud ginko
points awarded for your sarcasm (which i truly appreciate)
but your delivery sucks
It was recently brought to my attention that the state of the gaming world is not what it used to be.
i truly believe this wasn\'t sarcasrm on your part. take the blinders off bro, you\'re missing alot
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:stupid:
still haven\'t jumped outta that window... ahh well, can\'t have it all.
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Originally posted by mm
gaming today is shit
it\'s depressing you guys don\'t (refuse) to understand
makes me want to vomit
soully, please set that grass hut you live on fire, thanks
/applaud ginko
points awarded for your sarcasm (which i truly appreciate)
but your delivery sucks
i truly believe this wasn\'t sarcasrm on your part. take the blinders off bro, you\'re missing alot
Btw you actually believe console games are expensive becuase of gamers like us?Because we buy whatever "shit" they bring to the shelves? :rolleyes:
Probably you should start studying a few economics and accounting so you can answer to yourself the whys
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Originally posted by THX
Who said the quote above?
1st I would think to blame is all the pirates, which wasn\'t a problem 6+ years ago. But if no one pirated and young gamers simply didn\'t buy the games or forced their parents to get it for them would we still be where we\'re at now?
Are you serious? Pirating has always been a problem.
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Originally posted by mm
gaming today is shit
it\'s depressing you guys don\'t (refuse) to understand
You\'re not going to do this again. If you make a claim, especially one so bold, then you need back it up with reason otherwise go away.
soully, please set that grass hut you live on fire, thanks
You haven\'t made one point, Soully made several good ones.
/applaud ginko
points awarded for your sarcasm (which i truly appreciate)
Thanks:D
i truly believe this wasn\'t sarcasrm on your part. take the blinders off bro, you\'re missing alot
It\'s more than just sarcasm, it\'s me mocking the hell out of you.
As I told you, you don\'t belong in here if you\'re not willing to have a discussion.
Make your arguement...
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Originally posted by mm
soully, please set that grass hut you live on fire, thanks
This is so silly.
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Im alright with how gaming is i suppose and there have been a lot of great experiences that have come out of this generation but to some degree im with mm. Theres no way in hell this gen can really top any other (that is unless we bring up a dead era in gaming).
Things just arent the same. Perhaps its me but nothing feels the same (not that it should) but the level of excitement from this gen cant really compare its later days to previous generations.
Bah im babbling. But dont take this the wrong way. There are so many experiences and games that have been great, but in the overall sceme of things, its just not on par with gaming before.
perhaps im just grouchy right now. meh.
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amen
Btw you actually believe console games are expensive becuase of gamers like us?Because we buy whatever "shit" they bring to the shelves?
this is exactly the problem
piracy? wtf, is this 1980?
you think piracy hurt kabuki warrior sales? or britney dance beat (or whatever it was called)? [yes, i know worse case scenarios, stfu already]
yeah, piracy really puts a hurt on console gaming methodology
:rolleyes:
if is wasn\'t for piracy yo, fable would be selling mad copies cause they could like delay it for another 4 years
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Originally posted by Lord Nicon
Im alright with how gaming is i suppose and there have been a lot of great experiences that have come out of this generation but to some degree im with mm. Theres no way in hell this gen can really top any other (that is unless we bring up a dead era in gaming).
Things just arent the same. Perhaps its me but nothing feels the same (not that it should) but the level of excitement from this gen cant really compare its later days to previous generations.
Bah im babbling. But dont take this the wrong way. There are so many experiences and games that have been great, but in the overall sceme of things, its just not on par with gaming before.
perhaps im just grouchy right now. meh.
This is what I\'m looking for...
How does it pale in comparison? What exactly is it about today\'s gaming that just doesn\'t stack up? Is it the games, hardware, originallity, innovation, value?
Finally, is it the industry or is it you?
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Its funny that mm supports PC gaming as if its the best offering and a better choice than console gaming and at the same time he is the one who talks about how gaming should have been.Ironic
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apparently, reading comprehension > you
gaming today is shit
i just prefer the PC side cause consoles cant do 1600x1200 8x FSAA 16x AF at 60 fps. oh, and the mouse/keyboard thing is kinda nifty
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1)Exact quote from another thread :
i blame you, and gamers like you for the state that console gaming has become
2)Either way if you cared enough about gaming PC wouldnt have been your first choice of gaming
understanding his own words>mm
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we were talking about console gaming in that thread.
bro, you\'re killing me
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Yet you won\'t tell us why.
Make your arguement...
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This thread is a result from THAT statement
and I shall repeat NO.2
2)Either way if you cared enough about gaming PC wouldnt have been your first choice of gaming
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tell you why?
that thread was about console gaming
again, you guys attempt to troll me into a pc vs console argument when when the discussion is about the decline of popular gaming
....sigh
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Originally posted by mm
tell you why?
that thread was about console gaming
again, you guys attempt to troll me into a pc vs console argument when when the discussion is about the decline of popular gaming
....sigh
lol, I haven\'t tried to corner you with a pc vs. console debate. I\'ll let Unicron! have that one.
I\'m asking that you simply back up your claim of the "decline of popluar gaming" and that "gaming today is shit" as you put it.
Saying it over and over isn\'t working.
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cause you refuse to see it (or just trying to taunt me, which is what i would do in your place)
it\'s rediculous to say gaming as a whole hasn\'t declined. how many damn sequels do you need to shove down before it becomes clear?
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And he is talking about console gaming as well
And no we arent trying to turn it into a PC vs Console arguement.But you seem to show off how much of a true gamer you are.A true gamer skrew\'s graphics and plays lots and lots and lots of console games as well never showing that attitude of yours
That alone takes you the right to act like one
Originally posted by mm
amen
this is exactly the problem
piracy? wtf, is this 1980?
you think piracy hurt kabuki warrior sales? or britney dance beat (or whatever it was called)? [yes, i know worse case scenarios, stfu already]
yeah, piracy really puts a hurt on console gaming methodology
:rolleyes:
if is wasn\'t for piracy yo, fable would be selling mad copies cause they could like delay it for another 4 years
I didnt see that reply earlier but I ll tell you know why they are more expensive.
1)Console game prices have bigger consumer tax prices than PC games.Without taxes they are around $20-25
2)Consoles are sold in loss.Revenues are gained through games sales.And we are talking about revenues for the console company and the developers.In PC titles the price includes only the profit the developers need and nobody has to worry about hardware loss on sales
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Originally posted by mm
cause you refuse to see it
How can I refuse to see a point you haven\'t made?
(or just trying to taunt me, which is what i would do in your place)
I tried to make that glaringly obvious, next time I\'ll just come right out and say it. I\'m backing you in to a corner and seeing if you can get out.
it\'s rediculous to say gaming as a whole hasn\'t declined. how many damn sequels do you need to shove down before it becomes clear?
elaborate on that thought, please.
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Gaming "declined" not because of bad gamers.Thats because as someone else said (I think it was Soully) game development is more expensive and it takes more risks to develop something completely new or introduce a new idea.Its cause of the evolution of gaming.Not thanks to bad gamers
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I\'m sorry, but gaming is not on a decline just like Hollywood isn\'t on a decline. People who say so are just grumpier they\'re not 7 years old anymore and movies like Sky Captain roll off their chests as pure crap and games with the simplicity of Mario Bros just doesn\'t appeal to their meticulous ideas of flights of fancy. If anything else, the gamers of yesteryear, that being me and a handful of other people on this board, just have played so many games that everything has that been-there-done-that feeling and instead of apraising the games for their differences and their uniqueness, plenty of people are just concentrating on their similarities and hating how the changes have somehow killed their childhood favorites.
The absolute PERFECT example of this are those who love Final Fantasy VI but can\'t stand Final Fantasy VII. Both games are so incredibly similar and instead of applauding each for its differences, many of those who loved FFVI years before absolutely hate FFVII for being too similar. The hate in that sense is so widespread that it\'s just absolutely staggering. You can\'t enter a message board without encountering at least one of these people and that\'s just a fact of life. What they say is their reason is just that, but the truth is that they are unwilling to untie themselves from so many cliches and gaming standards that any deviation from such a course is absolutely unacceptable.
Look at you mm, just how many things have changed about you when it comes to playing games? You still play the same platform and consider it your favorite, for years and years. What\'s changed? Nothing. Keyboard and mouse. That\'s what it is for you. That\'s great. You\'re unwilling to appreciate or welcome change. That\'s your perogative, but what happens when those graphical effects you so cherish become moot? What happens when a console actually behaves moreso like a PC then an actual console? You shun the console for its changes. We\'ve seen this countless times in multiple threads from you. Harddrives are a mistake you say, patches are a mistake you say, and yet the systems without either you still don\'t approve of. There\'s no good middile ground.
I don\'t know whether I should be happy or sad for you for sticking by a platform years old and refusing to accept the new or the different. I guess that\'s not for me to decide really as I don\'t care either way. It\'s just humorous to me how people can blame gaming for changing when in fact, it\'s not the games that have changed, it\'s the people who have played games who have changed.
There was a quote for a review of a rather ingenius film called The Princess Bride and the quote went something like this--
"My only dissapointment is that I only get one chance to watch this film for the first time."
I think that just about sums it up for those who think the games have changed rather then the players.
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wow.Couldnt have been said better
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corner?
it\'s my room, bro
What\'s changed? Nothing.
everything has changed
as a society, we\'re lazy
we\'re programmed to pay for and expect less. this cannot be denied
oh, and princess bride is great everytime i see it.
and how can u compare movies to video games?
of course you couldnt have said it uni, you just make absurd comparisons and pull out random quotes to make a moot point
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Yeah I make absurd comparisons.Probably just as Ryu did (he brought the best examples) :rolleyes:
And you never seem to grasp the point of the subject and the things you are being told
Its you who seem to see videogames and movies the same way.You express the same opinions about movies and music as well.
edit:Oh and he wasnt comparing the two of them
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I ll tell you this.Probably what Ryu said but kind of simplified and a bit different.
Many years ago people grew up with technology and comforts that are simply lower than todays standards.But back then we grew to accept them becuase they were the best available.
Videogames didnt need huge labor force,money nor the greatest mind skills.Developers wanted so much to do but they didnt have the technology.WE as gamers were easier to accept what was available to us because that was the best we could get.
2D simplistic gameplay that was fan and the best thing available.
We grew with them.We now miss them.
We are nostalgic.We that have experienced gaming since commodore and atari.Simple, cheap made gaming.
But as time passes technology evolves, tastes evolve, possibilities evolve.These are the changes.Developers need higher labor force, more money and more skills.They have the technology to achieve more but not the time,ease and money to produce them just as they would 20 years ago.
Gamers changed.Old gamers want something different.New gamers also appeared who have grown in a life with better technology available.They demand different experience.These gamers cannot accept the simple, and cheap gaming we have grown with 10 plus more years ago.There are things available that werent for us before
Gaming became expensive made, more complicated.
You belong to the people who miss the good old days but its illogical to expect that to happen now.It can not.What you call better gaming is nostalgy.Old ideas(gameplay of the old years) can not be brought back.They wont work.Proof?Although you miss the good old days, rehashes of old games and sequels dont suit you.They dont offer anything new.They are just old games camouflaged in new form.
If they bring a sequel of an old game with many alterations then you wont be satisfied just like before.They killed the good old gameplay you will say.
Whatever they offer you is not enough unless they bring a time machine and get you back in time
Thats probably the example of FFVI fans Ryu has mentioned.
New gamers are probably enjoying todays gaming just as much as we have enjoyied the simpler games years ago.The difference is that they are enjoying a gaming that is costy and more complicated and its illogical to expect them to accept and love the old gaming we have met
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everything has changed
as a society, we\'re lazy
we\'re programmed to pay for and expect less. this cannot be denied
Wrong. Games are still the same. We expect MORE for paying LESS now. Don\'t even try to deny that. Carts were ALWAYS more expensive on the SNES and Genesis. I paid 60 bucks for the first Street Figher II on SNES and then 54.99 and tax on top of that for Super Street Fighter II and those are just two games. Mortal Kombat, the very first one, sure didn\'t brush the 49.99 mark at its release, that\'s for sure. Were you asleep during those times? Was someone else buying your games for you? I don\'t pretend like someone wasn\'t buying my games for me, but I was always conscious of the amount that went into each cart.
Lets look at today. I bought Gradius V for less then 30, Street Fighter Anniversary Collection for less then 30, Sims 2 for less then 40, Call of Duty United Offensive for less then 20. Not one of those games broke 50 dollars and those are just purchases in the past month. I can go further back and find even better deals. Never did Nintendo or Sega have budget lines like Player\'s Choice or Greatest Hits like companies have today. That crap NEVER occurred. Plus, each of those games offers more or the same amount of gameplay as games did of yesteryear. Since when were RPG\'s given paramount attention to the amount of hours it took to complete them -- that\'s right, this generation and as far back as the PSOne days to be fair as that\'s when it\'s universally accepted that the decline of videogames began.
For example, you yourself consider it a drawback that Fable can be played out in ten hours, but how many games broke the ten hour mark way back when? Not many. Hardly any in fact. Mario Bros can be beaten in 11 minutes by the hardcore and a few hours by someone who\'s a bit more casual. What about Punch-out? Sonic? These are beloved games of my youth and I never remember getting so pithy as to leverage out its hours to the dollar value invested in them. Only we, the jaded, do that today. The games never did that. You rarely, if ever, see game companies marking on the box "Over 90 hours of gameplay!" We do that in reviews and previews and live by it when we make the purchase. You think the game company had anything to do with that? Please.
oh, and princess bride is great everytime i see it.
Of course, but never as good as the first time. You know this. The secrets, what happens next, the unfolding of a tale -- that feeling is forever lost. The first time you played Mario, the first time you controlled Sonic, the first time you beat someone in a Street Fighter game -- that feeling is remembered, but never relived. Nothing can ever compare to the vitality I\'m sure you felt the first time. They can come close, but it\'ll never be as good.
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sure they can
1st time i played GTA3 > 1st time i played RE, or mario 64, or [insert previous random console game here for most part]
sometimes, the effect works in reverse, but it\'s getting farther and farther between these episodes
i look at your post uni and this is what i see
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv298%2Fmonderick%2Ftext.gif&hash=69c1c3bd655341b94294ccaaa7492d607b284ba2)
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Yeah the same things you see in everyone\'s post that is disagreeing with you.
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no, just yours (like i said)
oh, and where\'s shenmue 3 btw?
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Ok then.You see other things other than what is presented at you
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no, i just see
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv298%2Fmonderick%2Ftext.gif&hash=69c1c3bd655341b94294ccaaa7492d607b284ba2)
when u try and post constructively, really
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Sorry but my English arent my first language.And when I said "You see other things other than what is presented at you" I was refering to what you see in others people\'s posts (excluding me)
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sure they can
1st time i played GTA3 > 1st time i played RE, or mario 64, or [insert previous random console game here for most part]
sometimes, the effect works in reverse, but it\'s getting farther and farther between these episodes
It\'s interesting you phrased it that way. You said gaming is declining but you regarded the most current game in your list as the best of the previous games. Interesting. With that being illustrated in your post, then you would agree that gaming isn\'t exactly declining, but instead you yourself are just far more picky when it comes to spending your time playing anything? Doesn\'t that just mean you\'re jaded and the state of gaming is in fact, as I said, simply something that differs based on each person?
If you disagree and assert that gaming is declining as a point of fact, then why? Why do you think so?
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Gaming hasn\'t declined, but you can\'t recapture the first time you booted up Doom.. or played Pong.. or kicked Bowser\'s ass in Super Mario Bros.
You can come close, maybe even better it.. but the first time is the last time it\'ll be new to you.
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Gaming hasn\'t declined, but you can\'t recapture the first time you booted up Doom.. or played Pong.. or kicked Bowser\'s ass in Super Mario Bros.
You can come close, maybe even better it.. but the first time is the last time it\'ll be new to you.
Once again, your brevity speaks volumes. :)
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In my humble opinion, the state of gaming has been in a decline since the 32bit era. When gaming went mainstream, there was something special lost. Yes, there has been some shining stars in all this (CastleVania: SoTn!) but they are few and far in bewteen.
What do I think is wrong with the industry? Where do I start...
(1) Story focused games. It works for RPG\'s, but when cinema\'s became a mainstay in games, you start to see a lot of unnessarcy fluff and that fluff adds to extra development cost and development time. A lot of times it seems like the gameplay came after the story / cinema\'s.
(2) The 3D realm has never been truly mastered. When gaming was done with 2D there was no camera issues. Now\'a\'days in almost every game there is some kind of camera issue that only hinders the gameplay in the long run. Not only that, these 3D enviroments take so long to build that most the time the developers have to find a way to make the game longer. What do they do? They add pointless things like go fetch a coin. A ten hour game is quickly made into a tedious 30 hour game.
(3) While developers strive for the perfect balance of the gameplay and cinema, quality control seems to be going down. Maybe you can contribute this to the fact machines are more complex and there is so many lines of code in a game now\'a\'days, but no matter what, bugs are being let through that would of never made it back in the day. And I am not talking no-name developers with no-name games, I am talking big name games. One example is Metriod Prime , which has a freezing bug in it. These bugs have been left on the PC front but now are making their way to the Console market.
(4) Sony and MS both lost focus on what a console should do. It should play games. Instead you see both companies wanting to make hybrid machines that the consumer really does not need. I don\'t need a machine that does everything expect take out the trash. I need a console that plays games and works. Since the launch of both the PS2 and Xbox we have seem tons of people having problems with lasers (PS2) and DVD-drives (Xbox). TYhis is stuff that can be avoided if companies do through testing and show some foresight, but why bother when the company knows it can sell millions upon millions of units?
(5)Unnessarcy complex games. Back in \'the day\', there was two action buttons. Shoot and jump. Guess what? The game often required the player to have skill. In today\'s games you see games with upwards of twenty different actions, most of which are not all that useful. When you add all these functions you will also note that most of today\'s games are nothing more than trial and error. They don\'t challenge the player (once again, most games). Instead, you are playing what some companies like to deem an "interactive experience".
Then again, maybe I am just a bitter person who thinks gaming lost its forbidden spirit when Sony entered the arena. I remember a day when gaming was something of a geek hobby, but now\'a\'days the jocks that made fun of us geeks are playing games. Maybe I resent them for that, for taking my hobby and making it theirs. All I know is gaming for the most part does not appeal to me like it us to, every once in awhile a certain game will come around to spike my interest, but it is very seldom.
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Good points, LiC.
I\'d like to add that I also hate it when production values and cinema qualities override gameplay quality. It\'s especially evident in licensed games where they\'ll pull together a movie\'s actors, writers, composers, and stunt coordinators to work on the game. They try to create the feeling of playing the movie, but many times the gameplay is paper-thin or too often interrupted by FMV.
In the case of Rogue Leader on the \'Cube, it was a near-perfect realization of Star Wars\' space battles aesthetically but very uninspiring gameplay-wise IMO..
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Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
(1) Story focused games. It works for RPG\'s, but when cinema\'s became a mainstay in games, you start to see a lot of unnessarcy fluff and that fluff adds to extra development cost and development time. A lot of times it seems like the gameplay came after the story / cinema\'s.
Its true that they best fit for RPG.But I dont see it such a huge issue yet.Few games over do it with FMVs.MGS and MGS2 are one of the the few rare occasions that overdid it.They are the games that need them but also the only games that should have them.
Other games just have it where it snecessary.
Few examples
Resident Evil wouldnt have been the same without the few cut scenes.
DMC just have a few here and there.Wether you skip them or not neither add or take out from the gameplay.
R&C or J/K and daxter just have short funny ones every time you finish a mission.
I dont think they would have been any different if they didnt have them.
(2) The 3D realm has never been truly mastered. When gaming was done with 2D there was no camera issues. Now\'a\'days in almost every game there is some kind of camera issue that only hinders the gameplay in the long run. Not only that, these 3D enviroments take so long to build that most the time the developers have to find a way to make the game longer. What do they do? They add pointless things like go fetch a coin. A ten hour game is quickly made into a tedious 30 hour game.
Again I dont think thats always a huge issue.Some games have them at a major degree.Some dont have any.What does mastering of 3D realm mean?Managing a 3D game to feel like a 2D one?
The reason why they last more is not because they let you do pointless things.Its because they have become more complicated.There are rare games that arent 3D but are complicated too.Oddworld is one of these games.No camera issues, no 3D graphics.How much does it need to finish?More than the casual 2D game.
Its just that,They are 3D games and its easier to add complex gameplay when its 3D.So what if they last longer??Why is it a bad thing?
It would have been a bad thing if they were 2D and lasted so much.If a 3D game lasts less then the enviroments are way to small.
2D games last less becuase it would have been stupid if you had a stage where you move to one direction for more than half an hour.
Unlike 2D in 3D you can move to different directions.So that shouldnt be a problem
3D is just not your type of gaming.Its a matter of tastes.
I like both for what they are
(3) While developers strive for the perfect balance of the gameplay and cinema, quality control seems to be going down. Maybe you can contribute this to the fact machines are more complex and there is so many lines of code in a game now\'a\'days, but no matter what, bugs are being let through that would of never made it back in the day. And I am not talking no-name developers with no-name games, I am talking big name games. One example is Metriod Prime , which has a freezing bug in it. These bugs have been left on the PC front but now are making their way to the Console market.
I agree.I still find many cliches and bugs too.But again not necessarilly a decline in gaming.Because as technology evolved we got new gameplay ideas as well.It was bound to happen.
We got the bad and the good
(4) Sony and MS both lost focus on what a console should do. It should play games. Instead you see both companies wanting to make hybrid machines that the consumer really does not need. I don\'t need a machine that does everything expect take out the trash. I need a console that plays games and works. Since the launch of both the PS2 and Xbox we have seem tons of people having problems with lasers (PS2) and DVD-drives (Xbox). TYhis is stuff that can be avoided if companies do through testing and show some foresight, but why bother when the company knows it can sell millions upon millions of units?
Wether Sony or MS are offering low quality hardware or not I dont think it has much to do with gaming becoming better or not.We still play as much as we should have and we still buy the same amount of games.And this doesnt affect what developers are offering
(5)Unnessarcy complex games. Back in \'the day\', there was two action buttons. Shoot and jump. Guess what? The game often required the player to have skill. In today\'s games you see games with upwards of twenty different actions, most of which are not all that useful. When you add all these functions you will also note that most of today\'s games are nothing more than trial and error. They don\'t challenge the player (once again, most games). Instead, you are playing what some companies like to deem an "interactive experience".
Once again I agree.But how many 2D games have been must haves years ago?Not all 2D games were as good as you describe.And the same happens with 3D games.There are 2D games that are top notch and exploit well the simple button pressing scheme but there are also the bad 2D games that dont.There are 3D games that exploit well their more complex gameplay but also 3D games that are like the ones you describe.
I agree with all your points but I disagree that these reasons are reasons that gaming has declined.You mostly described bad 3D games and good 2D games.
2D hasnt always been perfect either.There were many trash games back then as well.
3D gaming was bound to happen.It would be illogical to believe that gaming should have remained to the 2D era.
Wipeout was one of my best experiences ever back in 1996.Virtua Fighter is also one of these 3D games that show the great possibilities of quality complex gameplay.And who can deny DMCs superb gameplay?A few camera problems didnt take anything away from it.
Also what about Tomb Raider1?(forget how it ended later)This is one of the examples of 3D games that offer great experience that cannot be offered by 2D games.
I am not saying 3D are better than 2D.But they are both 2 different experiences of gaming and neither should be trashed.They both have their good moments.
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(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv298%2Fmonderick%2Ftext.gif&hash=69c1c3bd655341b94294ccaaa7492d607b284ba2)
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I dont care if you find it hard to understand what I am saying and you need to put more focus to comprehend.You find it hard to understand even people that speak better English than I do becuase you are bored to think.
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In a sense mm is right.
I mean, things wouldn\'t exist as they exist without a market.
There wouldn\'t be movies like "Anacondas 2" if no body went to see it.
And there wouldn\'t be games like "Catwoman the movie" if nobody bought them.
Im not saying that all games are bad, I enjoy a lot of games. But why do you think Madden has such minor changes each year? Because people will buy it every year without a reasonable amount of new content.
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Ryu, you never fail to impress. I don\'t have anything to add however I\'ll be waiting for mm to address your question.
If you disagree and assert that gaming is declining as a point of fact, then why? Why do you think so?
Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
And I am not talking no-name developers with no-name games, I am talking big name games. One example is Metriod Prime , which has a freezing bug in it.
I still remember Final Fantasy III freezing up on me when I was fighting Kefka, then the tragedy of Super Metroid freezing up on Mother Brain AND erasing all my save data on the cartridge.
I’m, for the most part, satisfied where games are today. I was a fan from the first time I picked up a NES controller and I’ve only become more avid about gaming with every passing generation. I truly believe that the best lies ahead and as long as it’s fun I’m aboard for where ever gaming goes.
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
In a sense mm is right.
I mean, things wouldn\'t exist as they exist without a market.
There wouldn\'t be movies like "Anacondas 2" if no body went to see it.
And there wouldn\'t be games like "Catwoman the movie" if nobody bought them.
Im not saying that all games are bad, I enjoy a lot of games. But why do you think Madden has such minor changes each year? Because people will buy it every year without a reasonable amount of new content.
The door swings both ways. Without teh crap, you won\'t get the good. If no body saw the shitty movies, there wouldn\'t be any good ones..
and mm, most people just see :blah: from your posts.
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Originally posted by Ginko
Ryu, you never fail to impress. I don\'t have anything to add however I\'ll be waiting for mm to address your question.
I still remember Final Fantasy III freezing up on me when I was fighting Kefka, then the tragedy of Super Metroid freezing up on Mother Brain AND erasing all my save data on the cartridge.
I’m, for the most part, satisfied where games are today. I was a fan from the first time I picked up a NES controller and I’ve only become more avid about gaming with every passing generation. I truly believe that the best lies ahead and as long as it’s fun I’m aboard for where ever gaming goes.
I also love to see how far games have come, but I can\'t help but think we are reaching a point where games are starting to lack the spirit that made them so great at one time. Maybe I have became more and more jaded with each passing generation, but most games seem so cookie-cutter to me now\'a\'days. Then again, I am the person who hates cinema in games, I don\'t think they are something that are really needed, expesially the extensive use that most games now\'a\'days have.
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
In a sense mm is right.
I mean, things wouldn\'t exist as they exist without a market.
There wouldn\'t be movies like "Anacondas 2" if no body went to see it.
And there wouldn\'t be games like "Catwoman the movie" if nobody bought them.
Im not saying that all games are bad, I enjoy a lot of games. But why do you think Madden has such minor changes each year? Because people will buy it every year without a reasonable amount of new content.
There were games inspired from movies back in the 16 bit days as well and they werent as good either.Its not something new.Its something that was happening in the past as well.
Also take the NBA and Fifa games back in the old days.They didnt have much improvements either.
As for difficulty not all 2D games were that much based on skill as L-I-C makes it seem like.Only few get that previlege.
I started gaming when I was 6 years old.We all were much much younger back in the old days so it was expected that some games would have seemed more challenging than they were especially for younger gamers.
I remember playing games like Contra, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 3(I must have finished it a dozen times) and Super Mario Bros (I was nine years old then and managed to reach stage 8-3 in a few minutes).I rarely remember myself getting frustrated trying to progress in a good game.
But there were games that had control issues like Robocop that made me mad.But with enough skill you could overcome it.Sometimes what we call skill in 2D games is nothing more than a delusion that is mastering the game\'s problems. issues and excessive difficulty.
On the other hand I certaintly cant imagine myself as a 9 year old progressing far or with ease in games like Resident Evil or Jak2 or Vagrant Story.
We find many games much easier because we have become more familiar with gaming and becuase we have grown.
I now own countless of roms of many Sega and Nintendo games in emulators and most of them are hardly as challenging as they used to.Not to mention that most of them are crap games.
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The state of gaming ?
What are you guys talking about.... Its been like this since Year DOT (in computer games terms).
The only thing(s) thats changed is the Names.... Sony ...Microsoft....Commodore..Atari... Etc...
and the Graphics.
/me remembers all the old TAT that was released on the old systems TOO.....
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;)
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Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
I also love to see how far games have come, but I can\'t help but think we are reaching a point where games are starting to lack the spirit that made them so great at one time. Maybe I have became more and more jaded with each passing generation, but most games seem so cookie-cutter to me now\'a\'days. Then again, I am the person who hates cinema in games, I don\'t think they are something that are really needed, expesially the extensive use that most games now\'a\'days have.
Really? I\'m thinking they\'ve become far more personable and the capabilities of cinema has only helped flesh out a story/character. When I think back to the 8 & 16-bit generation I remember good or bad gameplay, when I think about the most recent I remember good or bad experiences. I\'ll agree most game developers don\'t belong in the movie business but some of them have made truly memorable games. Shenmue, Xenosaga, Final Fantasy VII/IX, Ratchet & Clank, ICO (a few off the top of my head) owe their depth/personality to 3D and I wouldn\'t trade any of them to go back to the games of yesteryear.
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Originally posted by Ginko
Really? I\'m thinking they\'ve become far more personable and the capabilities of cinema has only helped flesh out a story/character. When I think back to the 8 & 16-bit generation I remember good or bad gameplay, when I think about the most recent I remember good or bad experiences. I\'ll agree most game developers don\'t belong in the movie business but some of them have made truly memorable games. Shenmue, Xenosaga, Final Fantasy VII/IX, Ratchet & Clank, ICO (a few off the top of my head) owe their depth/personality to 3D and I wouldn\'t trade any of them to go back to the games of yesteryear.
Don\'t get me wrong, some games are enhanced by the story elements, but a lot of games aren\'t. Infact, it seems a lot of games drop the interactive experience for the cinematic experience and that is my main problem with today\'s games.
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Didnt we always have good and bad examples of the same thing?
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Hmm.. LICky, I think it\'s safe to say that you\'re just jaded when you\'re complaining about games not having the same "spirit" that they used to. ;)
mm: lol. Sorry Uni, but you were owned by a white rectangle. :D
How has gaming changed? You just need to look that bit harder to find those truely unique/great games. There\'s roughly as many good games being released today as there were years ago, it\'s just that they\'re buried amid a lot of rehashed crap.
Just my two cents.
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how was he owned by a white rectangle.. seems to me mm was just avoiding everything like he always does.
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So fast this thread has grown. I dont think theres anyway ill catch up on this one.
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I dunno, Innovation seems to be slowing down now. I mean when gaming originated, there was so much to create and try something new.
Now I think it has come to a point where fine-tweaking genres and styles of games has really over-shadowed exploring new ways to make games.
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Gaming was new thats why we were getting more new ideas and genres.Simple ideas were also enough and our expectations less demanding.
Lets take as example one of of the sub games in Jak2.
Each button represented a hole.You had to press the right buttons according to which hole a metalhead\'s head would jump out.
This simple idea could have been a whole genre and no one would have complained for being repetitive or having no variety 15 years ago.
We cared about high scores back in the days of the Atari, Commodore etc anyways.
But thats just a sub game in Jak2.
We dont care only about reaching the best high scores these days.Because our demands changed.You cant find a game like pong as entertaining as you used to.
And the developer at this present day has to find new ideas in a gaming industry that is nearing 30 years old of innovations and ideas of older developers.The fresher an industry is, the more new ideas we get.New ideas simply run out as the industry gets older.We also demand more and development is more expensive than in the past to risk at creating new ideas that might not be accepted.
We simply cant blame developers or the consumer for that.The most common thing we can get is redeveloping, reconstructing, bettering genres or adding new small ideas (that could have been a whole game 20 years ago) in present genres.
Atleast compared to the old days I play games that represent better their genre than they used to
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I don\'t know, I had a demo disc with the Pong remake on it, and that was insanely fun..
A game like Fantavision has the same simple concept and it\'s insanely fun.
There are many many simple games today that are just plain fun, and I still find them incredibly enjoyable despite those "raised expectations" which dictate that I should NOT be enjoying Game X because it\'s not complicated and revolutionary enough.
Speaking of which, did anyone pick up Katamari Damacy yet?
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Yeah but how many actually bought Fantavision and are still praising it as much as other popular genres?No sequel either.It didnt have any staggering sales either.It was just an interesting experience
And you got a free demo of a pong remake.Would you have invested $40 for a pong remake without any major imporvements in the genre?For the money we pay today we expect more.
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I\'m not sure if I get your point, Uni. Or even if you\'re making a point. And if you are, if you\'re making the same point you originally tried to make... :confused:.
..:)
Originally posted by Unicron!
Yeah but how many actually bought Fantavision and are still praising it as much as other popular genres?No sequel either.It didnt have any staggering sales either.It was just an interesting experience
Look at you. You\'re starting to sound like mm. :p Yes, great games often don\'t sell anything, and crap games often sell lots. What\'s your point?
And you got a free demo of a pong remake.Would you have invested $40 for a pong remake without any major imporvements in the genre?For the money we pay today we expect more.
Point is, with my \'jaded\' views clouding my vision of what made my youth playing games so wonderful, why am I still enjoying the type of games that I loved as a child? It\'s not like I\'m plugging in Sonic 2 again and enjoying it for nostalgias sake, I\'m playing games with a very similar concept (i.e. it\'s simple) and enjoying it just as much as I enjoyed games as a kid. Something which your theory suggests I should NOT be doing as I am expecting things to constantly be reinventing the wheel, etc etc.
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
Look at you. You\'re starting to sound like mm. :p Yes, great games often don\'t sell anything, and crap games often sell lots. What\'s your point?
No you misunderstood.Unlike mm I am not judging its quality judging from sales.I am comparing preferences.
Point is, with my \'jaded\' views clouding my vision of what made my youth playing games so wonderful, why am I still enjoying the type of games that I loved as a child? It\'s not like I\'m plugging in Sonic 2 again and enjoying it for nostalgias sake, I\'m playing games with a very similar concept (i.e. it\'s simple) and enjoying it just as much as I enjoyed games as a kid. Something which your theory suggests I should NOT be doing as I am expecting things to constantly be reinventing the wheel, etc etc. [/B]
No no no you got me wrong again.I probably put it wrong in my previous post.The nostalgia arguement was directed mostly to people like mm who are never satisfied with todays gaming no matter what will be offered to them today.
But since you mentioned it we like these old games as much as new ones because we grew with these simple game and because we also realise their greatness they had back then.If you take a younger gamer who has recently started playing videogames he wont feel the same enjoyment we felt and feel.If he enjoys it or not though is a different matter.
Also I wasnt trying to say you shouldnt enjoy these simple games or that its absurd to like them.When it comes to preferences you are willing to try many things.But when it comes to investing your money unless you dont care how much you spend you arent willing to spend the same amount of money on a 20 year old game as much as you pay for a new one.
For example I enjoy the old Sonic games, Street Fighters, Super Mario Bros etc but if someone tries to sell me a DVD with Super Mario Bros or Pong on it for $40 I wont decide to spend that amount of money right away just to own it on the same console that can do so much more(although the Sonic collection seems a very attractive purchase for me :p).
If someone offered me the original Ninja Gaiden cheaply or free I would have took it right away.But if someone tries to sell me the original Ninja Gaiden on XBOX as a separate game for $40 while I can get the new Ninja Gaiden for the same amount of money I will hesitate.Today someone with few knowldege in programming can create simple games.Would you have invested $40 for his games as much as you pay for a game that took more time,needed more labor force, more knwoledge and costed more to create?I wouldnt mind playing them though.
People dont just think "I will enjoy this game" and get the game right away.People see what technology offers today, what they expect from a game today and the price of that game.
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you\'re still wrong
sales -> market trends, numbskulls
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Games haven\'t changed much apart from sound, visuals, adding story lines ingame etc. The only thing that has changed is as we\'ve grown. We\'ve experience more things and played it all before. That doesn\'t mean games are going backwards, it just means they\'ve leveled out.
To a 6 year old, it’s all new. Most of you are probably looking at games as you did when u were much more younger and haven\'t played certain genres before...
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You missed my points Soully..
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Originally posted by Unicron!
Didnt we always have good and bad examples of the same thing?
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Let me explain myself...
This might just be me...aside from RPG\'s I couldn\'t tell you the story of any of the 8-bit/16-bit games because there really wasn\'t an emphasis on story telling. That\'s why I said I remember the games of the 2d era based on their gameplay, I couldn\'t tell you much outside that. When I tell a friend about a game today I find myself mentioning the story telling as well as gameplay and I just feel like it\'s a more complete experience.
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no booby, i just didn\'t read them.
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Originally posted by mm
you\'re still wrong
sales -> market trends, numbskulls
I dont know if you have noticed but you called yourself a numbskull
Originally posted by Ginko
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Let me explain myself...
This might just be me...aside from RPG\'s I couldn\'t tell you the story of any of the 8-bit/16-bit games because there really wasn\'t an emphasis on story telling. That\'s why I said I remember the games of the 2d era based on their gameplay, I couldn\'t tell you much outside that. When I tell a friend about a game today I find myself mentioning the story telling as well as gameplay and I just feel like it\'s a more complete experience.
That post was directed to L-I-C buddy ;)
I dont believe the opposite.I agree with you.Its just that L-I-C seems to take the bad examples as arguements that proove that gaming has declined but he avoids the good examples and how these new elements have also helped gaming.
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unicron, you\'re wrong........kids these days are still able to enjoy simple games....
the reason games are what they are today is because you can only make so many versions of pong (or any other \'simple\' game), so the only way for developers to make something new/innovative is to expand the games....
gaming didn\'t get different because of graphics, 2d --> 3d etc. etc.......it\'s because the gameplay has become far more (sometimes even too) complicated.........
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I didnt say anything different.
I didnt say they dont enjoy playing these games.Being less excited or finding them less enjoyable it doesnt necessarilly mean they dont enjoy them.I understand that you enjoy Pong.But as I said before.Are you willing to invest $40 on the original exact version of the old pong today??
And when I talk about technology I talk generally about changes in gaming.3D is just the first visible difference of that change in technology.3D usually just happens to be the choice to implement newer possibilities than previously feasable(DMC anyone?Retains the fast skillful action of 2D games, yet gameplay that cant be 100% realisable on 2D or atleast the on older technology).
I also mentioned in a previous post a rare occasion of complicated non-3D games that use similar gameplay mechanics to 3D games like Oddworld which is very different from other 2D games that some people seem to praise so much about but still remains a 2D quality title that has nothing to envy from 3D games.
That is a pure example that its not the shift from 2D to 3D that has to do with the decline of gaming or change/downgrading in gameplay.We have changes because of general evolution of gaming.
So... I dont believe or said the opposite of what you said.
I just cant accept all these comparissons between 2D and 3D.They both have their cons and pros.
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:eek: Whoa ! I finally took some time to read this massive thread.
Speaking for myself ; I\'m 26 now and I do not feel the current state of gaming to be depressing. It depends imo alot on what kind of a gamer you are in general. Each new generation of games will feature trends towards certain aspects of gaming.
Gamers who got hooked and \'stuck\' on one of these aspects which isn\'t dominant anymore in the succesive generation of games will hate the new change.
They forget however that it is a cumulative thing ; like the cinematic influence : it didn\'t destroy gaming, it only adds to the list of aspects of gaming. it doesn\'t destroy what was already there. it\'s an enrichment.
For example ; some ppl totally mix up the "cinematic influence in games" with "games based on movie franchises". Then they go say games got destroyed by cinematics in games...oh please...
These are 2 totally different things. The games which feature a deep visual storyline are an enrichment to gaming in general. It\'s movie franchised games which feature some superficial looks and characters from a movie all copy n pasted on some ripped off gameplay template ; it\'s THOSE games which harm gaming. It\'s exactly those franchise games which fail to feature any of the nice storyline of the movie it\'s tied into, IF at all it had a good one.
If ppl think simple games with zero complex storylines are the way it should be and Sony and MS are evil, then they must probably LOVE Eye Toy games then eh ? ; Cuz these feature nil story and have addictive skillbased easy to get into gameplay.
Really, gaming hasn\'t got worse. All what WAS good IS still in there ; it\'s just that the whole spectrum has broadened ALOT.
Don\'t let yourself fooled that some past era, with it\'s own dominant aspects of gaming which you like is THE best and that any deviation from that is something worse. That is imo getting yourself into a conservative modus which doesn\'t help you nor gaming in general.
If you absolutely think the new games suck and only the old generations are good ; then you should stop right here and vowe to NEVER play a new game anymore. Go and cement your mindset more and more into conservatism and fool yourself you have a great time playing those \'oldies\' over and over.
Right now, the current generation of console gaming is running on it\'s last legs ; that\'s why the sour ones are extra sour now. I\'ll bet they\'ll be up at the front when the new generation hype ensues.
I myself haven;t been gaming as much as i used to lately, however i CAN still have a good time with a current gen game. Also, pc gaming, especially from a hardware point of view are in a stadium of change. Very exciting times imho :bounce:
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That\'s a good post, Knotter.:)
Hopefully this thread will keep going...
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:) Thanx !
We can never be sure \'where\' gaming will be heading... with the next gen stuff on the horizon (both consoles & pc ) most ppl will focus on graphics first. Heck maybe the next generation will indeed be just the same as current with better graphics, but imo there WILL be this point where game AI will be/ have to significantly evolve. Even if it\'s just for the sake of feeling convincingly real to accompany those next gen visuals.
AI - that\'s the next hurdle to be taken imo. Once they tackle that a new revolution will be imho.
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hmmm...i gotta say i like the direction gaming is goin in...me personally i like the cinema in games, like ginks said it fully embraces the storytelling...a good example.. silent hill 2 & 4..i\'m a horror survival buff..and the storytelling has got to be on point when it comes to games like these..as long as it\'s not over the top,.. ie metal gear solid 2 as i thought in some parts of that game i was just like wtf... especially the parts between raiden & that chick he communicated with...ugh!
and i agree with knotter. with graphics pretty much lookin decent for the most part,..i feel the only other aspect they need to nail is the AI...as in any game no matter how good the AI is..at some point or another your partner might start to walk around in circles or get stuck on a wall...but overall it can only evolve...and i believe that what we are expericing now is only the very tip of the iceberg...
atari, intellivision...and others weren\'t really that long ago...and to see how games have advanced since then actually excites me as to what we will be playin 10 - 20 yrs from now...