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Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: GigaShadow on October 05, 2004, 06:20:40 AM
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This is one example of the fundamental foreign policy differences between Kerry and Bush. You will either find it amusing or embarrassing depending on which side of the political fence you sit on.
October 5, 2004 -- President Bush privately refers to French President Jacques Chirac, who bitterly opposed Bush\'s Iraq policy, as "The Jackass," according to a new book.
And Bush knows how little Chirac thinks of him because U.S. intelligence eavesdrops on phone calls by Chirac at the Elysée Palace in Paris, the book says, according to The Times of London.
"The relationship between your president and ours is irreparable on the personal level," a U.S. official told a senior French military aide, according to the book, "Chirac Versus Bush — The Other War."
Among the revelations of bad blood between the two leaders, detailed by authors Henri Vernet and Thomas Cantaloube:
* Before the bitterly divided U.N. Security Council took up Iraq in early 2003, the French entourage met in Germany\'s U.N. mission because it was the only unbuggable place they could find.
* The White House wouldn\'t take any calls from the French leadership for weeks after the U.S.-led invasion. Andy Soltis
http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/31365.htm
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You find it amusing?
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Yeah, it\'s nice to know we have a mature adult leading our country. :rolleyes:
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Yes, I find it amusing. Chirac is a jackass. As I stated, you will either find it amusing or disturbing.
The reason I and others find it amusing is because of France\'s constant opposition to the US in global politics - predating GWB. Through the use of its veto power in the security council France was more an ally of Saddam\'s Baath party then it was an ally of the US. The oil for food scandal is starting to bring this to light.
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*Holds hand up*
I find it amusing too. No, I find it very funny.
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I don\'t think it\'s funny that our country leader would call another country leader a jackass. Real professional, way to represent the country.
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They both call each other names:
"And Bush knows how little Chirac thinks of him because U.S. intelligence eavesdrops on phone calls by Chirac at the Elysée Palace in Paris, the book says, according to The Times of London."
I am just waiting until the investigation at the UN over the oil for food scandal eventually finds its way to Chirac\'s (and Putins) doorstep.
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That doesn\'t mean Bush couldn\'t take the high road and be the better man.
He represents the United States of America for crying out loud.
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Originally posted by Ginko
That doesn\'t mean Bush couldn\'t take the high road and be the better man.
He represents the United States of America for crying out loud.
Why? I certainly don\'t hold France and Chirac in high esteem. I am sorry we even consider France an ally. A significant number in America consider France our "Oldest Enemy". Speaking of which there is a good book on the subject. Though I don\'t agree with everything it says - its does present valid points.
http://www.oldestenemy.com/read.php
During the presidency of Charles de Gaulle, France became the source of strife within the Western alliance as it undermined NATO and downplayed the Soviet threat—and even refused to rule out aiming its own nuclear missiles at the United States. In 1986, when the United States obtained positive proof that Libyan strongman Muammar Qaddafi was behind a fatal terrorist bombing in Berlin, the French rejected American requests to let U.S. warplanes fly through their airspace on a mission to retaliate against a sinister forerunner of Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.
At times, Americans have reacted with passionate indignation at French hostility and intransigence. In the 1790s, during the infamous XYZ Affair, the public was outraged when French officials demanded huge bribes from U.S. diplomats. In the 1960s, de Gaulle’s shrill anti-American harangues and his dramatic decision to pull French troops from NATO resulted in boycotts of French products across the United States. Yet the myth of Franco-American friendship remains so tenacious that when each new generation of Americans encounters French enmity, it reacts with shock and disbelief.
The French themselves have harbored considerably fewer illusions. “We are at war with America,” declared François Mitterand shortly before his death in 1996. “A permanent war . . . a war without death. They are very hard, the Americans—they are voracious. They want undivided power over the world.” Indeed, anti-Americanism has deep roots in France, especially among its political and intellectual elites. Fueled by an abiding belief in French superiority, this attitude at times has assumed odd shapes: As a diplomat in Paris in the 1780s, Thomas Jefferson tried to disabuse French thinkers of their strange insistence that North American animals were smaller and weaker than those native to Europe. More often, however, the French have sought to contrast their Old World refinements with what they have regarded as New World vulgarities. As French prime minister Georges Clemenceau put it, “America is the only nation in history which miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to degeneration without the usual interval of civilization.”
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You\'re missing the point...we have world leaders calling eachother names. There are many other terms Bush could have used to describe the situation but he chose "jackass". This might be okay in your mind but in my mind it\'s just further tarnishing our image in France\'s eye. Regardless we shouldn\'t just go pissing on other countries. The most powerful man in the world, a person who represents a country\'s ideals, principles, and most of all the people, is calling names.
It\'s inexcusable, imo.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Why? I certainly don\'t hold France and Chirac in high esteem. I am sorry we even consider France an ally. A significant number in America consider France our "Oldest Enemy". Speaking of which there is a good book on the subject. Though I don\'t agree with everything it says - its does present valid points.
http://www.oldestenemy.com/read.php
What a load of bullcrap. I love it when someone conveniently forgets vast periods of history and picks out only the intermittant instances that prove their point. As I recall, the French were allied with us during the two wars for independence, and we wouldn\'t have a nation if it weren\'t for them. I\'m not saying you can\'t take issue with their post WWII leadership, but to call them our "Oldest Enemy" is complete BS.
BTW, it is highly immature to harbor an unreasoning grudge against France simply because they have the balls to disagree with us. This is one matter where we really look like dumb hillbillies to the rest of the world. I wish some of our leaders would grow up and realize that we AREN\'T the only country in the world. This is one of the qualities of conservatives that disturbs me the most. A vast disregard and disinterest in the rest of the world. It\'s astonishing.
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Originally posted by Coredweller
What a load of bullcrap. I love it when someone conveniently forgets vast periods of history and picks out only the intermittant instances that prove their point. As I recall, the French were allied with us during the two wars for independence, and we wouldn\'t have a nation if it weren\'t for them. I\'m not saying you can\'t take issue with their post WWII leadership, but to call them our "Oldest Enemy" is complete BS.
BTW, it is highly immature to harbor an unreasoning grudge against France simply because they have the balls to disagree with us. This is one matter where we really look like dumb hillbillies to the rest of the world. I wish some of our leaders would grow up and realize that we AREN\'T the only country in the world. This is one of the qualities of conservatives that disturbs me the most. A vast disregard and disinterest in the rest of the world. It\'s astonishing.
Two wars for independence? Huh? The War of 1812 wasn\'t a war of independence - that was American stupidity invading Canada without a military or are you referring to the Civil War? Besides their "kindness" has been repaid in both world wars.
There isn\'t a vast disregard for the rest of the world - just France. Even you can\'t deny their conflicting political stance post WW2 with that of the United States. As far as looking like dumb hillbillies to rest of the world - you are right how un PC of Bush to call Chirac a jackass - he should have called him "ane" (French for jackass).
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I think it\'s amazing and disturbing. Amazing because that kind of behavior by our President only shows his arrogance and his "brain power". Disturbing because that kind of behavior will only make our country look worst.
I don\'t see how something like this could help Bush build his alliance he keeps preaching to us. I\'m sure that Chirac isn\'t the only one that things very low of Bush.
You don\'t call other world leaders a "jackass" It only makes you look like an asshole. And people don\'t like to deal with assholes.
And on a side note...
It\'s so sad what the Republicans are trying to do with the "global test" line that Kerry made during the debate. It\'s sad how they are trying to completely change the meaning of it. It\'s pretty desperate.
Also, what they did with those flyers that had that Bible crossed out and blamed the Dems for trying to ban it. Wow, leave it to the Republicans.
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
And on a side note...
It\'s so sad what the Republicans are trying to do with the "global test" line that Kerry made during the debate. It\'s sad how they are trying to completely change the meaning of it. It\'s pretty desperate.
Also, what they did with those flyers that had that Bible crossed out and blamed the Dems for trying to ban it. Wow, leave it to the Republicans.
How about dems spreading rumors that Bush is going to bring back the draft? Trying to register illegals and convicted felons to garner more votes as well? Wow leave it to dems... :rolleyes:
Mystiq - try using your brain... we were promised the most negative campaign ever by both sides and we are getting it. I acknowledge both sides are trying to pull off some dirty tricks, but by the way you post the Demorats are running a clean campaign while the Republicans are not. That shows your lack of knowledge and objectivity.
Also most American\'s could care less about our relationship or lack there of with France. The reason Bush is popular with a lot of the public is that he shoots from the hip and tells it like it is. No matter how much it makes the pseudo intellectuals in this country cringe.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Two wars for independence? Huh? The War of 1812 wasn\'t a war of independence - that was American stupidity invading Canada without a military or are you referring to the Civil War? Besides their "kindness" has been repaid in both world wars.
There isn\'t a vast disregard for the rest of the world - just France. Even you can\'t deny their conflicting political stance post WW2 with that of the United States. As far as looking like dumb hillbillies to rest of the world - you are right how un PC of Bush to call Chirac a jackass - he should have called him "ane" (French for jackass).
Of course I\'m talking about the War of 1812, commonly referred to as the 2nd War for Independence. That\'s beside the point.
Yes, disregard for "just France" because they are the only nuclear superpower that has the resolve to publically disagree with us. What jackasses! How dare they disagree with us! Nobody\'s allowed to disagree with us! We\'re the UNITED F**CKING STATES OF AMERICA GODDAMN IT! Do you see the immaturity of this reaction?
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Originally posted by Coredweller
Yes, disregard for "just France" because they are the only nuclear superpower that has the resolve to publically disagree with us. What jackasses! How dare they disagree with us! Nobody\'s allowed to disagree with us! We\'re the UNITED F**CKING STATES OF AMERICA GODDAMN IT! Do you see the immaturity of this reaction?
Mad TV had a pretty good skit on the presidential debate. In it Bush said "America\'s the new Texas, we\'ll kick your ass."
/vomits
no real relevance to the issue but I just thought I\'d throw it in for a laugh. LOL..the wo0t...haha....heh......meh.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
How about dems spreading rumors that Bush is going to bring back the draft? Trying to register illegals and convicted felons to garner more votes as well? Wow leave it to dems... :rolleyes:
Mystiq - try using your brain... we were promised the most negative campaign ever by both sides and we are getting it. I acknowledge both sides are trying to pull off some dirty tricks, but by the way you post the Demorats are running a clean campaign while the Republicans are not. That shows your lack of knowledge and objectivity.
Also most American\'s could care less about our relationship or lack there of with France. The reason Bush is popular with a lot of the public is that he shoots from the hip and tells it like it is. No matter how much it makes the pseudo intellectuals in this country cringe.
You\'re telling me to use my brain? YOU\'RE telling me that I post in a way that make Dems seem pure good?
LOL...Yeah and I suppose you love showing how much the Republicans like bullshiting on the American people?
Refer to your post about Bush winning the debate and the certain link you provided.
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Dude have a sense of humor you act like no other world leaders call other people names in private, it did say he privately calls him this. And when will you all realize that him calling someone a jackass isn\'t too immature, the guys only human, you want our presidents to be a god damn super human law abiding bible thumping democrat right???
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Originally posted by mjps21983
Dude have a sense of humor you act like no other world leaders call other people names in private, it did say he privately calls him this. And when will you all realize that him calling someone a jackass isn\'t too immature, the guys only human, you want our presidents to be a god damn super human law abiding bible thumping democrat right???
Well guess what!?
It isn\'t private anymore after the NY newspaper made it public!
"A bible thumping democrat"-oxymoron?
Yes it\'s immature. I\'ve called others names but I\'m not the President of this country. I don\'t represent the values and virtues that this country is supposed to stand for. HE does that. It\'s his job to make the US look good.
Calling other people jackasses and letting a newspaper find out about isn\'t very smart.
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
Well guess what!?
It isn\'t private anymore after the NY newspaper made it public!
"A bible thumping democrat"-oxymoron?
Yes it\'s immature. I\'ve called others names but I\'m not the President of this country. I don\'t represent the values and virtues that this country is supposed to stand for. HE does that. It\'s his job to make the US look good.
Calling other people jackasses and letting a newspaper find out about isn\'t very smart.
+1
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You act as if he intended for it to happen, if I call you a moron privately to someone then that is between me and the other person not the rest of the world.
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Originally posted by Ginko
+1
-10 for agreeing with anything IQ deficient Mystiq says. ;)
Oh and Chirac is a jackass.
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-10!!1! Damn! lol:)
Even so I believe Bush could have privately refered to him as something else. If anything I feel like it echo\'s his efforts on diplomacy...but I don\'t want to get into that here.
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Blah Blah Blah...
And Clinton received blow jobs from an intern...
WHOOOP DEEE FREAKIN\' DOOOOO!!!
Oh, and Canada\'s PM called Bush a moron but I recall people here all having a nice chuckle out of it...
What was that about Bush double standards?
:rolleyes:
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I didn\'t even know about that.
I wouln\'t have laughed. Alot of other people feel that so that\'s an old joke :)
It\'s simple, we need help in Iraq. And you don\'t win help by showing aggression to a leader that didn\'t agree with you. I wouln\'t want to work with somebody who has the "join me or go to hell" mentality.
And that is very sad that they refused to receive calls from the French leaders after the invasion. Very sad and disturbing.
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How many times does it have to be said?
France will NEVER help the US...
...and I\'m not just talking about Iraq.
Short of WW 3, I doubt they will ever help on anything...
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I think you\'re missing the point, Ashford. We\'re talking about the way Bush spoke of the situation and it largely speaks of his mentallity towards diplomacy. He\'s been criticized for it and something like this just doesn\'t help. France or no, you simply don\'t call names as a professional.
As for Canada\'s Prime Minister calling Bush a name...I may not like Bush but I\'m offended and concerned when my country\'s leader is insulted.
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I think people are overreacting here. Kerry has probably called the Chirac names too and I\'m 100% sure I wouldn\'t give 2 sh!ts if the NY Post posted a story about it.
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Originally posted by Ginko
That doesn\'t mean Bush couldn\'t take the high road and be the better man.
He represents the United States of America for crying out loud.
So you are saying that United States should be held to a higher standard than France? Why?
Originally posted by mjps21983
Dude have a sense of humor you act like no other world leaders call other people names in private, it did say he privately calls him this. And when will you all realize that him calling someone a jackass isn\'t too immature, the guys only human, you want our presidents to be a god damn super human law abiding bible thumping democrat right???
FINALLY!!!! I was reading this crap from mystiq and I was going nuts. This was said in private. Are you trying to tell me that Chirac has never said a single derogatory comment about Bush? Give me an F\'ing break. THese are human beings. I\'ve called numerous people assholes. Why? Because they were assholes.
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Originally posted by videoholic
So you are saying that United States should be held to a higher standard than France? Why?
Didn\'t say that, I\'m suggesting he should be held to a higher standard, period. That\'s my opinion on the subject.
FINALLY!!!! I was reading this crap from mystiq and I was going nuts. This was said in private. Are you trying to tell me that Chirac has never said a single derogatory comment about Bush? Give me an F\'ing break. THese are human beings. I\'ve called numerous people assholes. Why? Because they were assholes.
Obviously it\'s no longer private. You call people in your professional life assholes?
He\'s the President, when he chose to run for office he was telling everyone let me represent this country\'s beliefs, principles, and people for the four years he\'s in office. I\'m not sorry that I expect more.
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We\'re never going to pass the global test at this rate.
;]
-Dan
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Originally posted by videoholic
So you are saying that United States should be held to a higher standard than France? Why?
FINALLY!!!! I was reading this crap from mystiq and I was going nuts. This was said in private. Are you trying to tell me that Chirac has never said a single derogatory comment about Bush? Give me an F\'ing break. THese are human beings. I\'ve called numerous people assholes. Why? Because they were assholes.
I don\'t know about you but when a newspaper publishes an article about it the whole "said in private" scenario is lost don\'t you think.
Refer to Ginko\'s post for my thoughts.
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How hard is it to understand that it was said in private? This ain\'t exactly front page news and the NY Post ain\'t exactly a top news source. If Giga hadn\'t posted this link no one would have even known this.
THIS JUST IN BUSH CALLS CHIRAC A JACKASS!!!! (in private)
Bottom line: no one cares and people are getting fussed over nothing.