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Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Mr. Kennedy on October 05, 2004, 05:13:49 PM
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The reaction I have so far is that Edwards is being very agressive while Cheney is being passive. Edwards seems more into it, and personally I thought he should have been the democratic nominee over Kerry.
It\'s still early in the debate, but Edwards looks sharp, as usual.
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I think Cheney is slapping him around with details and Edwards is doing all that he can ti slip in his sound-bites.
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Totally agree, and I like Kerry.
Originally posted by Ace
I think Cheney is slapping him around with details and Edwards is doing all that he can ti slip in his sound-bites.
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Edwards is coming back - but for the most part Cheney is bitch smacking him.
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Edwards came on strong, took a beating for a good 30-40 minutes, but he\'s got Cheney trapped on domestic issues.
They both got into a bitch fight those over personal records, it was unnnecessary.
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Edwards had his talking points. Said them. Now he\'s dead. I\'m sorry, but Cheney is down right kicking his ass. I don\'t know if it\'s possible to see this one in favor of Edwards at all.
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I think both have done things well, Cheney seems more prepared with the facts where as Edwards is trying to project a direct and clear image.
Cheney wins on content.
Edwards wins on style.
one thing Edwards did very well was early in the debate by saying "The American people see it on their TV\'s" he somewhat created a feeling of seperation between American people and the current administration.
But anyways, I\'ll agree that Cheney slightly won this debate. But it was nothing major, Edwards still did very well.
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Originally posted by The Hurricane
Edwards seems more into it, and personally I thought he should have been the democratic nominee over Kerry.
Agreed. Edwards I think wouldn\'t be too bad of a president. Maybe 2008?
Edwards was pretty well. I thought his public speaking skills were very good. But he is a lawyer, he\'s is used to this kind of things. Cheney did smack down Edwards on a lot of things. I did miss a good 45 minutes of it because of work. They both I think did very well, but I personally think Cheney won.
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The only thing working against Edwards is his lack of experience. He also has a bad track record in the senate, but his ideas are great, and he\'s someone that actually relates to the people.
I thought the his best moment was at the beginning of the debate when he said something along the lines of "you have not been straight with the people."
He\'s right, we have been conned into believing so much crap over the years.
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Originally posted by Titan
Agreed. Edwards I think wouldn\'t be too bad of a president. Maybe 2008?
SO you are not only saying that the democrats are going to lose, but you are going to assume that Mrs. Clinton won\'t be your candidate in 2008? You don\'t see the Clintons a whole lot right now do you? I wouldn\'t be surprised if they vote republican.
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Very interesting debate after the pissing match of the first 30 minutes or so. I don\'t have a favorite as of right now but I feel both represented their candidate as well as engaging in substantial debate. I\'ll have more thought on this later when I find a transcript and read it over.
All I can conclude is that the presedential race would be a hell of lot more interesting, for myself, if it was Cheney vs. Edwards.
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Cheney > Edwards.
Cheney totally outclassed and outspoke Edwards. John Edwards showed the American public the lack of experience and the lack of a true plan on foreign policy that the Kerry ticket has. This is the type of debate Bush should have done. Cheney was composed and I was quite impressed. I was almost expecting Edwards to start saying "I object your honor!" at certain points. I also had deja vu on a lot Edwards was saying... I was thinking to myself during Edwards first answer that I had heard that exact same thing before... it is like Edwards too Kerry\'s exact same lines...
I came away being less impressed with Edwards over all - I really was expecting Cheney to lose the debate. I wouldn\'t feel too comfortable with Edwards being one step away from being President. His lack of experience is too obvious. Cheney won on content and style end of story.
Though Edwards didn\'t do anything too bad - other than trying to interupt on one occasion - Cheney did more good for the Bush campaign than Edwards did for the Kerry campaign.
Memorable Cheney quotes:
"...but you weren\'t there to vote for it."
"The troops wouldn\'t have what they have today if you had your way."
"If you can\'t stand up to Howard Dean, how can you stand up to Al Qaeda?"
"You cannot succeed in this effort if you will not recognize their [the Iraqis\']contributions... "
"Zarqawi was in Baghdad before the war, and after the war, andwe have to deal with him by taking him out and that\'s what we will do."
"Five days after we captured Saaddam, Qaddafi surrendered his nuclear materials. "
"First time I ever met you is when you walked on the stage tonight."
"I can think of a lot of words to describe Senator Kerry\'s response on Iraq and consistent isn\'t one of them."
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I think that Cheney took this one in terms of trying to fix what Bush screwed up during the presidential debate. But Edwards won in terms of the message and re-inforcing what his campaign is trying to do. Cheney was just there to cover up for the Bush\'s show during his debate with Kerry.
Cheney kept bringing up Edwards-Kerry voting record which is probably what he was told to do. Edwards just kept bitch-slapping him back with CURRENT issues which is what I cared about and probably the rest of the viewers.
I can\'t believe Cheney said he had never suggested that Al-Quaeda was linked with Hussain.
And his education program that he talked about. The whole low ranking schools have the option of allowing their students to transfer to a better schools IS BULLSHIT.
Why? Because here in Dallas we are dealing with that right now.
More than 6 of our HS have been rated low. And alot of their kids are applying to tranfer to our school. No, and it shouln\'t happen. I had to apply to this school. Write a paper. Pass test. And all they have to do is be part of a shitty school? How is that going to help us if they come to our school unprepared and not ready for the challenges my school has? How does that educate them better?
And you know why they have been rated low? It\'s not only academic wise but also that they don\'t have enough money to get programs that the Gov. requires. They might be missing a class here and there that has nothing to do with the students actually doing good in school.
Also 3 of the HS here are full of substitute teachers. All the teachers have left and found a better job at Highland Park ISD and Richardson ISD.
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Those I found quite interesting however Edwards made some good points I\'ve been waiting to hear. The "flip flops" that the Bush administration has done was brought up in full effect and shows that Bush isn\'t as steadfast as he\'d have you believe and that Kerry isn\'t so bad in this regard. They\'re both guilty and hopefully this whole "flip flop" crap can be dropped.
There are quite a few instances where I thought each man had his moment. I\'ll wait to find a transcript before I go further in to this.
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
I think that Cheney took this one in terms of trying to fix what Bush screwed up during the presidential debate. But Edwards won in terms of the message and re-inforcing what his campaign is trying to do. Cheney was just there to cover up for the Bush\'s show during his debate with Kerry.
Cheney kept bringing up Edwards-Kerry voting record which is probably what he was told to do. Edwards just kept bitch-slapping him back with CURRENT issues which is what I cared about and probably the rest of the viewers.
That is what people go by Misstiq. Voting records. Kerry and Edwards both have terrible ones - or in the case of Senator "Gone" don\'t have one at all. Cheney won and totally outclassed Edwards. Edwards was clearly ruffled numerous times and lost his composure at least once. Cheney did not.
Edwards point on Cheney supporting cutting programs was totally out of context. Of course Cheney supported cutting certain weapons programs - it was the end of the Cold War!
One positive for Edwards. He did do a good immitation of a Kerry parrot.
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Woohoo got flash polled by ABC. ;)
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And I suppose you ignored all the decisions Bush-Cheney have made that Edwards pointed out?
And also both of them lost their composure. Did you not see the faces Cheney was making when Edwards was pointing out the errors of their administration?
WHO goes by voting records?
Bush supporters?
People go by what each candidate is willing to do and has planned to do. Not by how many times you can look back in history and pick a few votes here and there. You can\'t make a decision on records simply because you don\'t know why the candidate voted against or for it. They sometimes read the bills and if they find something they don\'t like -like Edwards pointed out about the vote against "providing the troops with what they need"-as Cheney said, there are things that they don\'t agree with and that the public never finds out about.
In Bush-Cheney\'s case. We now are FACING the results of their decisions. We have seen the outcome of some of their decisions.
I guess Cheney knew alot more about what is going on that Bush did. I mean what can you expect from a president "gone" on vacation?
Cheney did a good job showing that he was the one that probably made all the decisions. Bush was just there to enforce them.
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Kerry and Edwards only have their records as "proof" to show the public. They have no experience. If you vote for something or against something repeatedly you get a pattern and that is what people base their decisions on.
Nice of you to concede Cheney won the debate. Thanks. ;)
Please don\'t go away mad because boy wonder dropped the ball. We have another debate on Friday - which will hopefully be more interesting than the last one.
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I\'m sorry, even if Cheney won the debate, the quote that will stick out to me is one that Edwards made.
"you have not been straight with the people."
It\'s true, and it sent the most powerful message.
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I think Edwards didn\'t mess it up. That\'s a good thing.
I didn\'t feel like any of them won. I feel that they both accomplished what they set out to do.
If you\'re talking about the response to questions they received...That\'s a different issue. Edwards was more articulate and Cheney was more on the lines off "his voting record is there so I don\'t feel like discussing it" and alot of his silence seemed to me as an admittance of guilt or at least the feeling of not wanting to be there.
I was honestly bored. None of the candidates gave an all out whipping on the other guy like Kerry did Bush. But then again they went in there with an agenda and not to win.
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I have but one question, what is this "Halberton" (sp?) scandal that Edwards spoke of?
I don\'t recall hearing anything about that til now.
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Following President Bush\'s demand for more corporate accountability, public interest group Judicial Watch, Inc., filed suit against Vice President Cheney and the Halliburton Company, alleging accounting fraud during Cheney\'s stewardship of Halliburton in the 1990s. The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission is also investigating Halliburton\'s accounting practices.
Judicial Watch Sues Cheney, Halliburton (AP, July 10, 2002)
Following is a brief explanation of Cheney\'s involvment with Halliburton and the pending lawsuit and SEC investigation.
What is Halliburton Co.?
The Dallas-based Halliburton Company provides products and services to the petroleum and energy industries to aid in the exploration, development and production of natural resources. Halliburton KBR, the company\'s engineering and construction division, designs, builds and provides additional services for the energy industry, governments and civil infrastructure. Halliburton employs 85,000 people in over 100 countries.
Halliburton came under fire in the early \'90s for supplying Libya and Iraq with oil drilling equipment which could be used to detonate nuclear weapons. Halliburton Logging Services, a former subsidiary, was charged with shipping six pulse neutron generators through Italy to Libya. In 1995, the company pled guilty to criminal charges that it violated the U.S. ban on exports to Libya. Halliburton was fined $1.2 million and will pay $2.61 million in civil penalties.
Halliburton Energy Services
What was Vice President Cheney\'s involvement with Halliburton?
Cheney was tapped in 1995 to lead Halliburton as chairman and chief executive officer while the company was a second-tier firm within the oil and energy industries. As secretary of defense during the Persian Gulf War, Cheney made international contacts which Halliburton executives hoped would propel the company to the industry\'s fore. Under his leadership, the company did expand overseas, swelling its domestic portfolio into foreign markets. Cheney also led the aggressive acquisition of competitors, an offensive strategy which occurred during a period of falling oil prices. The largest merger was with Dresser Industries for $5.4 billion in 1998 – the same month in which layoffs cut nine percent of the work force.
During his chairmanship of Halliburton, Cheney criticized U.S. sanctions against "rogue" nations such as Iran and Libya in a 1998 speech. According to a July 26, 2000, Washington Post story, Cheney complained the sanctions "are nearly always motivated by domestic political pressure, the need for Congress to appeal to some domestic constituency."
Cheney\'s work with Halliburton yielded large financial reward. In May 2000 he sold stock holdings in the company worth $5 million. When he retired from Halliburton during the 2000 presidential campaign, Cheney was awarded a retirement package worth $20 million.
Why is Halliburton under investigation by the SEC?
A little more than a month ago, Halliburton announced that the SEC had begun a probe into the company\'s booking of cost overruns on energy-related construction jobs. This practice accounted for the overruns as revenue, even if customers had not yet approved the charges, and inflated Halliburton profits by almost $100 million in 1998.
According to a June 2, 2002, Washington Post story, Halliburton said a shift in its mix of business mandated the new accounting policy, and that it conformed to generally accepted accounting principles. The accounting change was approved by Halliburton auditor Arthur Andersen.
U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission
The Post\'s coverage of the accounting industry
What is Judicial Watch?
Judicial Watch, Inc., is a self-described "nonpartisan" group which "investigates and prosecutes corruption by government officials," according to a press release. However, the organization has tilted conservative since its founding in 1994 by bringing numerous cases against former President Bill Clinton and his administration while offering legal representation for Paula Jones and Gennifer Flowers. The group also investigated the 2000 election Florida ballot dispute and currently has several cases pending against U.S. government agencies. Judicial Watch is a nonprofit group based in Washington, D.C., with satellite offices around the country.
Judicial Watch
What is Judicial Watch\'s lawsuit against Cheney?
Judicial Watch filed suit this week on behalf of shareholders against Cheney and 13 other Halliburton directors, as well as Halliburton itself and its accounting firm, Arthur Andersen LLP and Arthur Andersen Worldwide. The suit charges Cheney and Halliburton with fraudulent accounting practices and misleading press releases resulting in the overvaluation of the company\'s shares, leading to shareholder losses. The lawsuit alleges Halliburton overstated revenues by $445 million from 1999 through the end of 2001.
Two shareholders, Stephen S. Stephens of Indiana and Lyle and Deanna J. Lionbarger of New Mexico, have been listed as plaintiffs. The suit was filed in U.S. District Court in Dallas.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/articles/halliburtonprimer.html
^^^There is more info there except I didn\'t want to post a whole lot.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5333896/
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Transcript: Cheney vs. Edwards Debate (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/debatereferee/debate_1005.html)
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
"First time I ever met you is when you walked on the stage tonight."
That was my favorite quote of the debate. So so funny.
GigaShadow, I was getting deja vu from Edwards also. I actually think he said the exact same argument without realizing that he already said it (not just a sentence, but like a whole paragraph repeated word for word)
I think Edwards did a great, but as already said, Cheney did better. Although towards the end of the debate, Cheney was looking kind of tired (or maybe that was just me -- it kind of dragged towards the end). Overall, a great debate for both sides. Cheney made up for Bush\'s messup last Thursday, and Edwards didn\'t hurt Kerry\'s chances by any means.
What I\'m trying to figure out is, why am I still undecided for who I want to win? On one hand, I would like a change in government just to see what kind of things Kerry does. I do like some of the changes Kerry (and today Edwards) have talked about. But on the other hand, I really want Bush to stay president so he can finish what he started in Iraq, and then move onto other things. I want to avoid the situation where, a) Kerry is president and Iraq eventually becomes a success, and the democrats claim that it was successful because of Kerry". Or b) Kerry is president and Iraq completely falls apart, which leads to fingers being pointed at Bush for getting us into this mess. I think it would be a lot easier to leave it to Bush to finish what he started. That way no matter what the fingers can be pointed at Bush.
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Originally posted by IronFist
I actually think he said the exact same argument without realizing that he already said it (not just a sentence, but like a whole paragraph repeated word for word)
Did he keep saying "Hard Work"?
If he did I think I saw that episode already.
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The thing that drove me insane was how Kerry and Edwards have all these plans to get the troops out, to get other allies involved, to solve health care, to fix education, blah blah blah.
They haven\'t shown me a single plan that will be paid for. I honetly think I would vote for Kerry and Edwards if I lived at 801 twinkle toes lane, Happyville, FL.
But I don\'t.
This world is not all roses. It takes, time, commitment, and money to get it on the right track. Some how the Democrats think you just throw a ruthless dictator out of power and within a couple months we should be out of there with a democracy in place and a pretty rose garden out in front of their congress building (Whatever they call it).
BTW, on MSNBC\'s website they have Edwards havingn won the debate 67-33.... I can\'t figure out what the 800,000+ voters were watching, but I have to assume some one slammed the site with automated voting..
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Originally posted by videoholic
The thing that drove me insane was how Kerry and Edwards have all these plans to get the troops out, to get other allies involved, to solve health care, to fix education, blah blah blah.
They haven\'t shown me a single plan that will be paid for. I honetly think I would vote for Kerry and Edwards if I lived at 801 twinkle toes lane, Happyville, FL.
But I don\'t.
This world is not all roses. It takes, time, commitment, and money to get it on the right track. Some how the Democrats think you just throw a ruthless dictator out of power and within a couple months we should be out of there with a democracy in place and a pretty rose garden out in front of their congress building (Whatever they call it).
BTW, on MSNBC\'s website they have Edwards havingn won the debate 67-33.... I can\'t figure out what the 800,000+ voters were watching, but I have to assume some one slammed the site with automated voting..
Vid, Terry McAwful sent out another mass email yesterday to Dems to spam online poll sites post debate. "If we can\'t win, at least make it look like we did!" Basically, they hit both MSNBC and CBS - in any case online polls are in no way scientific.
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Man, watching the media spin this into an Edwards win is very interesting. In no way did I see this as an Edwards win or a draw.
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Dems sent boy on man\'s errand
By Howie Carr
Wednesday, October 6, 2004
[Excerpt]
John Edwards looked like Opie last night, and he sounded like Barney Fife, and after that mistake by the lake, there\'s only one place John Edwards [related, bio] should be headed today.
To Michigan, for a nice long ride in Mike Dukakis\' tank.
It may not have changed a lot of minds, and it dragged big time in the last half. And of course everyone was clicking back and forth between Cleveland and the Yankees game. But if last night\'s debate had been a prize fight, it would have been stopped around 9:20, and Gwen Ifill would have passed the hat in the crowd to raise carfare to send the ambulance chaser home in an ambulance.
Grumpy Old Man 1, Breck Girl 0.
If George Bush had been half as good as Dick Cheney in his debate in Miami last week, this race would be over.
John Edwards was the one who needed body armor last night. Cheney slammed him on his use of loopholes to avoid paying $600,000 in Medicare taxes, and then delivered two memorable soundbites, the first on the Kerry-Edwards ticket.
``If they couldn\'t stand up to the pressures of Howard Dean [related, bio],\'\' Cheney said, ``how can they stand up to al-Qaeda?\'\'
And then pointing out to Edwards that he\'s the presiding officer of the Senate, Cheney told Boy Edwards that he\'s up there every Tuesday, ``and the first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight.\'\'
Ouch. You might say Dick Cheney knew Sam Ervin and Jesse Helms, and John Edwards is neither.
Someone on National Review summed it up nicely last evening:
If you want somebody sued, call John Edwards.
If you want somebody killed, call Dick Cheney.
Forget Florida. Is John Edwards now eligible for federal disaster relief? Never send a boy on a man\'s errand, that\'s another of last night\'s lessons. It was a mirror image of Thursday night, in that Cheney and Kerry weren\'t that great, it was just that Edwards and Bush were so feeble.
How weak was it that with six days to prepare for the ``global testing\'\' question, the best Edwards could come up with was that Kerry ``said in the same segment that we will never give anyone a veto over our security.\'\'
In other words, John Kerry [related, bio] was against global testing before he was for it.
You have to wonder, though, why George Bush didn\'t give Kerry the same smackdown last week. All Edwards did was dust off Kerry\'s talking-points, for instance the fact that 90 percent of the casualties are allegedly American. The Wall Street Journal blew that up the morning before the debate, but Bush didn\'t see it.
Oh, I forgot, George Bush doesn\'t read newspapers.
Boy, has John Edwards lost touch with his alleged roots. Millionaires sitting by their swimming pools? Who\'s he kidding with that lame class-warfare rhetoric? He\'s one of the Beautiful People now. Edwards has gone from Hee Haw to foie gras, from George Jones to George Soros, from Barbara Mandrell to Barbra Streisand.
It\'s not a pretty picture. Social climbing never is. That\'s why the Silky Pony couldn\'t run for re-election in North Carolina - he was going to lose. Because those old boys saw right through him. They know when a guy goes from pick-up trucks to nip-and-tucks.
http://news.bostonherald.com/columnists/view.bg?articleid=47668
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Howie is awesome! Howie has a radio show here in Boston and I\'ve done some video work for him.
He does slant to the right but he will call out any politician no matter what side they sit on.
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His radio show may not slant to the right but I have always felt that his column slants to the right.
In fact I think the entire Boston Herald slants to the right.
/Not that that\'s a bad thing. ;)
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Why was this made a sticky yet the presidential was not. It looks like a vast right wing conspiracy to me.
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Originally posted by Ace
Man, watching the media spin this into an Edwards win is very interesting. In no way did I see this as an Edwards win or a draw.
I thought it was it least a draw for Edwards, he might have been slapped around a few times, but he came out shooting, and kept the tempo going.
Cheney was like Darth Vader.
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Honestly with the amount of traffic on this site we don\'t really need any stickies...
Pres will be a sticky.
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Originally posted by Capcom
Why was this made a sticky yet the presidential was not. It looks like a vast right wing conspiracy to me.
Because we didn\'t think about it until the other day when the last debate thread was closed. The next Pres will be a sticky too.
Talk about trying to read into something... ;)
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Man, watching the media spin this into an Edwards win is very interesting. In no way did I see this as an Edwards win or a draw.
Yeah, it\'s kinda funny how people watch a debate and then just agree with whatever the experts say.
I myself think they are usually pretty correct, and I didn\'t watch any examinations of the debate afterwords but I thought it was a win for Cheney because he had a whole arrangement of facts and one-liners to hit Edwards with.
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Let\'s cllear one thing up, even if you think Edwards did not win the debate, if most the polls show he did, don\'t try and say it was because of a mass email and automated polling. It just looks pathetic on your part.
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Like I said, I don\'t put too much faith in polls. Especially flash polls. They are too easily manipulated.
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I won\'t say it was a mass campaign or anything, but I was up last night at 3:30 am. I logged on to MSNBC and they had over 890,000 votes. In only 5 hours?
They took the poll off and started a new one.
So take that as you will.
EDIT:
I take that back. I was told they took it down, but maybe it was CNN. We were talking about both sites at the time. The MSNBC site is up to 2.18 million voters so I think it\'s the same poll I saw last night.
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ONLINE SURVEYS
In contrast, MSNBC\'s online surveys (Live Votes) may reflect the views of far more individuals, but they are not necessarily representative of the general population.
To begin with, the people who respond choose to do so — they are not randomly selected and asked to participate, but instead make the choice to read a story about a certain topic and then vote on a related question. There is thus no guarantee that the votes would reflect anything close to a statistical sample, even of MSNBC.com users: The participants in a Sports Live Vote and a Politics Live Vote may overlap, but each group is likely to be dominated by people with an interest in each particular area. In addition, while MSNBC.com’s Live Votes are designed to allow only one vote per user, someone who wants to vote more than once could simply use another computer or another Internet account.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3704453/
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If I could vote, I would probably vote for Bush. Kerry talks about how this is the wrong war, in the wrong place at the wrong time and how it is such a mistake. But whether he likes it or not were in it. If he takes over as president he\'s going to have to finish it out. It\'s like how can you say it\'s the wrong war and we shouldn\'t be there but then send more troops. I don\'t know how you can so so many bad things about it and finish it strongly. Maybe he will do good, but I would feel much more safe and much less worried if Bush finished this out.
As for the debate, I think Cheney won. There were a few times Cheney made Edwards look real bad. Like when he said this is the first time I\'ve ever met you. I think Edwards had a cheap shot on Cheney when he brought up his lesbian daughter. It was on topic, and it was a compliment but still, you shouldn\'t talk about someones family.
Cheney was like Darth Vader.
Yea, I think they said that about 2 minutes after the debate.
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Sort of like, your damned if you do, damned if you don\'t.
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Originally posted by cloud345
Kerry talks about how this is the wrong war, in the wrong place at the wrong time and how it is such a mistake.
Wow. I think this is the first time I have ever seen someone on this site repeat a political talking point verbatim in a non-joking manner.
Its actually kind of weird.