PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => PS3 Discussion => Topic started by: Evi on February 07, 2005, 11:18:34 PM
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Here you go you lazy people. C and P isn\'t that difficult:
SAN FRANCISCO--The chip that will run the next version of the PlayStation video game machine will have nine processor cores and run faster than 4GHz, the chip\'s designers revealed Monday.
Engineers from Sony, IBM and Toshiba revealed those and other specifications for the Cell processor during a press conference at the International Solid-State Circuits Conference, where technical papers on the Cell design will be presented this week.
The three companies have been working on Cell for several years, promising to deliver a high-performance chip optimized for multimedia applications. Test production of Cell chips is set to begin later this year, and the processors will appear later in workstation PCs optimized for animation and other graphics chores. The chip will also power the next version of Sony\'s PlayStation game console, which is widely expected to be released late this year or early next year.
While analysts and researchers have already puzzled out most of the basic aspects of the Cell design, Monday\'s announcements included some of the first specifics.
Cell will have a 64-bit IBM Power processor and eight "synergistic processing units" capable of handling separate computing tasks, said Jim Kahle, an IBM Fellow. The Power processor will act as the brain of the chip, running the main operating system for an application and divvying up chores for the other processors.
The multicore design will give software developers tremendous flexibility, Kahle said, allowing them to run multiple operating systems on the same chip and experiment with variations on grid computing.
"It\'s designed from the beginning to work in a world where all the computers are tied together," he said.
Future versions of Cell chips could have more or fewer processing units depending on what device and software designers require, Kahle said. "There are a number of different ways to implement parallelism on the chip," he said.
How those processing units are used is up to software developers, including the game makers who will soon start wrestling with the PlayStation 3. Kahle said IBM and its Cell partners will provide game developers and other code writers with open-source tools and guidelines for working with Cell but that game developers will have final say on how they chop up computing tasks among the processing units.
"It\'s really...up to the game developer," he said. "You can program it in many different ways."
Other Cell numbers include the following.
• The first version of the chip will run at speeds faster than 4GHz. Engineers were vague about how much faster, but reports from design partners say 4.6GHz is likely. By comparison, the fastest current Pentium PC processor tops out at 3.8GHz.
• Cell can process 256 billion calculations per second (256 gigaflops), falling a wee bit short of marketing hyperbole calling it a "supercomputer on a chip." The slowest machine on the current list of the Top 500 supercomputers can do 851 gigaflops.
• The chip will have 2.5MB of on-chip memory and have the ability to shuttle data to and from off-chip memory at speeds up to 100 gigabytes per second, using XDR and FlexIO interface technology licensed from Rambus.
"One of the key messages you hear from the architects of next-generation chips is that their performance is being limited by off-chip bandwidth," said Rich Warmke, product marketing manager at Rambus. "We\'ve really licked that with Cell. One hundred gigabytes per second is really unprecedented in the industry."
• The chip will have 234 million transistors, measure 221mm square and be produced using advanced 90-nanometer chipmaking processes. Peter Glaskowsky, a consultant at research company The Envisioneering Group, said he expects Cell production to shift to a 65-nanometer process, however, as IBM introduces the chipmaking technology later this year.
While the PlayStation 3 is likely to be the first mass-market product to use Cell, the chip\'s designers have said the flexible architecture means that Cell will be useful for a wide range of applications, from servers to cell phones. Initial devices are unlikely to be any smaller than a game console, however--the first version of the Cell will run hot enough to require a cooling fan, Kahle said.
Some competitors, however, are skeptical that Cell will find much of a home outside of video games. One of the big problems with Cell, said Justin Rattner, an Intel Fellow, is that the processing units aren\'t identical, a situation that increases complexity and the opportunity for bugs.
"You\'ve got this asymmetry," Rattner said. "It\'s like having two kinds of motors under the hood. We are very reluctant to adopt architectures like this because they take compatibility and throw it out the window."
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More pre-PS3 marketing hype. If they shake up the PC world in any way, and even better, give AMD/Intel/MS a run for their money, then I\'ll start to read all the useless tech specs.
But right now, this gives me chilling reminders of all the PS2 EE "insane" specs that were gonna power games that would blow our minds.
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Marketing hype? This is from the official CELL presentation. It\'s legit...and about damn time.
The PS3 will have 9 cores...and blah blah blah. Here\'s some slides form the presentation:
Slide 1 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip001.jpg)
Slide 2 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip002.jpg)
Slide 3 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip006.jpg)
Slide 4 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip011.jpg)
Slide 5 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip012.jpg)
Slide 6 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip016.jpg)
Slide 7 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip022.jpg)
Slide 8 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip026.jpg)
Slide 9 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip028.jpg)
Slide 10 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip039.jpg)
Slide 11 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip046.jpg)
Slide 12 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip051.jpg)
Slide 13 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip052.jpg)
Slide 14 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip055.jpg)
Slide 15 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip058.jpg)
The ISSCC won\'t be over for a few days, so we\'ll know a lot more soon.
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too much technical mumbo jumbo for me...but i guess those specs are a good thing right? :confused:
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Originally posted by EviscerationX
Marketing hype? This is from the official CELL presentation. It\'s legit...and about damn time.
The PS3 will have 9 cores...and blah blah blah. Here\'s some slides form the presentation:
Slide 1 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip001.jpg)
Slide 2 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip002.jpg)
Slide 3 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip006.jpg)
Slide 4 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip011.jpg)
Slide 5 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip012.jpg)
Slide 6 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip016.jpg)
Slide 7 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip022.jpg)
Slide 8 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip026.jpg)
Slide 9 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip028.jpg)
Slide 10 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip039.jpg)
Slide 11 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip046.jpg)
Slide 12 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip051.jpg)
Slide 13 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip052.jpg)
Slide 14 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip055.jpg)
Slide 15 (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2005/0208/kaigaip058.jpg)
The ISSCC won\'t be over for a few days, so we\'ll know a lot more soon.
:nerd: *drools*...cool news.
Thanks for the heads up.
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Originally posted by EviscerationX
Marketing hype? This is from the official CELL presentation. It\'s legit...and about damn time.
"Supercomputer on a chip" = Marketing Hype
Show me some damn games.
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Ridge Racer : Revelation and Tekken Lag Tournament. Yay.
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I was expecting more impressive specs
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Yeah,
I know what you mean. I guess both Microsoft and Sony won\'t release their "specs" that we are waiting for until the machine is complete or near complete....save the best for the last.
These specs that we are waiting for is:
-Polygons count
-Main RAM
-V RAM...
-Sound RAM...
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Originally posted by Paul2
Yeah,
I know what you mean. I guess both Microsoft and Sony won\'t release their "specs" that we are waiting for until the machine is complete or near complete....save the best for the last.
These specs that we are waiting for is:
-Polygons count
-Main RAM
-V RAM...
-Sound RAM...
i\'m more concerned about the vram since that was one of the weakest components of the ps2...
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Originally posted by Unicron!
I was expecting more impressive specs
More impressive specs?! WTF have you been smoking?
Those specs are pretty outragous considering the fact that the Xenon CPU going into the Xbox 2 is below 100 GFlops according to the leaked Xenon documents.
And we still don\'t know if they\'re planning to put more than one of these into the PS3 yet. The Cell architecture is highly scalable.
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Considering we\'re dealing with 90nm chips on 300mm wafers, it\'d be hard to judge how many will fit onto one of those [and how much it would cost them financially]. And 256GFLops on a chip isn\'t impressive? That\'s more than ten times the power of current PCs. What the f^ck do you guys want? I think they achieved the hype since the patent refers to 1TFLOP with 4 PEs. The CELL chip has 1 PE [Processing Unit]. 256GFLOPs*4 = 1TFLOP I\'d say that\'s pretty damn impressive.
Just knowing the CELL specs isn\'t going to give us the best impression, we need the PS3 specs as a whole with NVIDIA\'s GPU included.
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Yeah,
these 4 Ghz spec and 256 GFLOPS is impressive, but we are curious about the polygon counts and how good it will look on videogames...
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Originally posted by Paul2
Yeah,
these 4 Ghz spec and 256 GFLOPS is impressive, but we are curious about the polygon counts and how good it will look on videogames...
Then we\'ll have to wait to see what nVidia and Sony have whipped up. :)
Personally I have a feeling that PS3 will be (slightly) more powerful than Xbox Next. Of course, they\'ll both be plenty fast, so it probably won\'t matter much.
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Originally posted by Samwise
Personally I have a feeling that PS3 will be (slightly) more powerful than Xbox Next. Of course, they\'ll both be plenty fast, so it probably won\'t matter much.
I get that feeling too. Sony always gets the most developers so I hope the PS3 is just as powerful as X2.
As for Nintendo I have the feeling they\'re going to try new innovations and gimmicks with the Revolution. For example they had 2 screens on the DS but you can view, touch, or even blow on it for input. I think they\'re going to do some more "outside-the-box" thinking to stay competitive rather than rely on insane specs.
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Originally posted by EviscerationX
Considering we\'re dealing with 90nm chips on 300mm wafers, it\'d be hard to judge how many will fit onto one of those [and how much it would cost them financially]. And 256GFLops on a chip isn\'t impressive? That\'s more than ten times the power of current PCs. What the f^ck do you guys want? I think they achieved the hype since the patent refers to 1TFLOP with 4 PEs. The CELL chip has 1 PE [Processing Unit]. 256GFLOPs*4 = 1TFLOP I\'d say that\'s pretty damn impressive.
Just knowing the CELL specs isn\'t going to give us the best impression, we need the PS3 specs as a whole with NVIDIA\'s GPU included.
There is still a year ahead before the PS3 is released.Current Pentiums are at 3.8 Ghz accprfing to the article.They arent very far to catch up.Also according to few articles other companies are already trying to do the same thing.
I am expecting something groundbraking.A patent no one can reach easily in just a few years.I wouldnt like my PS3 to beceomas as fast obsolete as my PS2
Also if I remember well originally they were planning higher teraflop calculations.I cant recall the numbers though.I could be wrong.But I think it was 500 or something
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And the hype machine begins
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Originally posted by Unicron!
There is still a year ahead before the PS3 is released.Current Pentiums are at 3.8 Ghz accprfing to the article.They arent very far to catch up.Also according to few articles other companies are already trying to do the same thing.
I am expecting something groundbraking.A patent no one can reach easily in just a few years.I wouldnt like my PS3 to beceomas as fast obsolete as my PS2
Also if I remember well originally they were planning higher teraflop calculations.I cant recall the numbers though.I could be wrong.But I think it was 500 or something
Well, the Cell (ONE Cell mind you) can still process 10 times the Gflops that current PC processors can. So it\'s not just a couple hundred MHz faster.
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"Cell also appears to have an advantage in the number of transistors — 234 million compared with 125 million for today’s latest Pentium 4 chips. Traditional chip makers, however, have regularly doubled their number of transistors every 12 to 18 months.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6929471/page/2/
"Intel, the world\'s largest microchip maker, said in a statement it would add two so-called dual-core products to its Pentium family of chips during the second quarter, including the Pentium processor Extreme Edition.
Dual- and multi-core products include two or more processors on a single chip of silicon. That speeds up computing, although software must be rewritten to take full advantage of the extra power.
Sony is expected to use Cell starting next year to build its much-anticipated Playstation 3 video system.
Intel\'s Pentium Extreme Edition also will include hyper-threading technology -- a separate technology Intel began offering three years ago.
With hyper-threading and dual cores, Intel chips can process four software calculations simultaneously by efficiently using resources that otherwise would sit idle.
The ability to process up to four software "threads" simultaneously gives computers the impression that it has four separate processors with which to process data. Multi-threading increases performance and responsiveness on demanding tasks."
and
Intel said it has more than 10 multi-core related projects under way
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6929388/
Currently the Cell chip seems like the best thing ever.But the reason why I am not so excited about it is because until the Cell is put into use in consumer products other competing companies could already have something similar.
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Current Pentiums are at 3.8 Ghz accprfing to the article.They arent very far to catch up.Also according to few articles other companies are already trying to do the same thing.
I am expecting something groundbraking.
You do realize that GHz means jack shit when comparing 2 different systems? But obviosuly PCs will catch up eventually.
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I agree
But I compare just like how the article compares.You cant say for sure either since there is still some time untill we see the chip being used in products to actually know its superior performance compared to the chips that will be available till then
Right now we only see number comparisons.Which is the only thing I see right now.
I cant be impressed with numbers.I have to see actual performance
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I disagree.
Imho Intel is hitting a dead end with the P4. Read this :
Arstechnica Cell article (http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/cell-1.ars)
The more I read about it becomes clear why Intel\'s dual core approach is a sort of desperate move to keep up with Moore\'s Law.
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The more I read about it becomes clear why Intel\'s dual core approach is a sort of desperate move to keep up with Moore\'s Law.
I agree with that.
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The beauty of CELL is its scalability and the imense bandwidth to memory and other chips (I\'m sure it\'s on one of the slides posted above).
I however have doubts we\'ll see a 4 CELL config in PS3 as the chips is quite big on the 90nm process and it\'s not confirmed 65nm is ready for full production.
If they do get to 65nm in time, I could see a dual CELL per die solution, incorporating 2 PPE with each 8 SPEs. That would give roughly 512 GFLOPs per die. If we\'ll see two of those in PS3 I think is unlikely, given heat restraints, launch frame and costs associated with it. I\'m still hoping though... a double dual CELL config would be nice and the 1 TFLOP figure amazing. Sadly, I somewhat doubt it. A 1 or 2 CELL setup seems more likely seeing that this should be well enough to leave MS in the dust...
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The Arstech article actually makes some sense. No wonder those Prescotts NEED such large cache ; the friggin\' instruction pipeline is sooo damn large.
I\'m not saying Cell will replace or even be a threat to general desktop computing, but imho it\'ll set a gamesperformance standard.
Would anyone think Sony is gonna repeat the PS2 mistake of poor code libraries for developers ?
That\'s why they have Nvidia onboard. I think Nvidia\'s PS3 contribution will be alot more about development tools than some custom GPU design. I think this might even be benificial to OpenGL2.0 as for game development. Ati still kinda rules pc gaming becuz of direct3d. Imagine a huge PS3 games library based on OpenGL2.0
What\'s MS gonna do ? Another BOX with off the shelf components ?
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What\'s MS gonna do ? Another BOX with off the shelf components ?
no way dude !
1st step into MS design is the box. it\'s going to be 7inch high, 27 inch lenght, and 16 inch width.
they plan to have some kind of super futuristic conept, a metalic gray box with flahing green stripes that turn into yellow when the console get\'s too hot.
the second step in the design is the "add-on". MS plan to have DVD playback, 29.99$ for the remote that will unlock it. there is also now for the 1st time (duh!) full backward compatibility with the original xbox. Sinc e it\'s an emulation software though, you\'ll have to buy it seperatly and install it to the HD (still not decided if there will be a HD or removable highperformance memory stick).
anyway, it\'s friday and i need to have my 1st coffee, thx for listening. /yawn
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they plan to have some kind of super futuristic conept, a metalic gray box with flahing green stripes that turn into yellow when the console get\'s too hot.
No