PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Ginko on March 07, 2005, 01:52:54 PM
-
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoft.com%2Fxna%2FIMG%2Fbanner.jpg&hash=c5fe29240c24a51dc1093773be6937d9d5c67952)
"Software will be the single most important force in digital entertainment over the next decade. XNA underscores Microsoft\'s commitment to the game industry and our desire to work with partners to take the industry to the next level."
- Bill Gates, founder and chief software architect of Microsoft
XNA (http://www.microsoft.com/xna/default.aspx)
Microsoft XNA is the catalyst for a new ecosystem of interchangeable, interoperable software tools and technologies from Microsoft, middleware and game development companies. By integrating software innovations across Microsoft platforms and across the industry, XNA forms a common environment that liberates developers from spending too much time writing mundane, repetitive boilerplate code. Instead, XNA frees game creators to spend their time where it matters most -on the creativity that differentiates their games.
The XNA development platform will serve as the foundation for future game platforms from Microsoft, including Windows, Xbox and Windows Mobile-based devices.
Games on future iterations of Microsoft game platforms will be powered by tools and technologies from the XNA ecosystem. XNA dramatically improves the way games are produced, helping contain skyrocketing development costs by reducing the amount of time developers spend writing mundane, repetitive boilerplate code for complex new hardware. The XNA ecosystem integrates new and existing tools and technologies from Microsoft and its partners so that developers can make better games, faster.
Illustrating the potential of the XNA development platform, Microsoft made a series of announcements about its own video game tools and technologies in four key areas: online, input, graphics and audio.
In response to strong customer demand, Xbox Live™ development tools for functionality such as billing, security, login, friends and matchmaking will be made available to Windows developers. The tools will make it easier to create the same social, unified online gaming experiences on Windows that game players have come to expect on Xbox.
On the input front, as part of XNA, Microsoft will develop a common controller interface and unify input APIs and button standards across multiple platforms. The result will be a family of common controllers for Windows and Xbox game players. In addition, the move will fuel a whole new wave of compelling, cross-platform input devices from peripheral manufacturers.
In graphics and audio, many tools such as PIX (an analysis tool) and XACT (an audio authoring tool) - previously available only to Xbox developers - now will be available on Windows as part of the XNA development platform. Likewise, innovations from Windows such as High-Level Shader Language (HLSL) will come to Xbox. The DirectX® API and the Visual Studio® development system will continue to be the baseline environment for both platforms. Collectively, these tools and technologies will enable movie-quality graphics while forming the impetus for new software that will help developers cope with the looming complexity of high-definition video and audio.
FAQ (http://www.microsoft.com/xna/faq.aspx)
Q: What is Microsoft XNA?
A: Microsoft XNA is a powerful next generation development platform that equips developers to deliver breakthrough games while combating rising production costs and ever-increasing hardware complexity. It integrates new and existing tools and technologies from Microsoft and its partners so that developers can make better games faster. Video games on future iterations of all Microsoft game platforms-including Windows, Xbox, and Windows mobile-based devices -can be powered by tools and technologies from the XNA development platform.
Q: What will Microsoft XNA do?
A: Microsoft XNA is an industry-wide initiative, and will be the basis for a software ecosystem where developers, tool makers and middleware providers profit and flourish by delivering better games faster. XNA arms developers to better cope with skyrocketing development costs, elevated consumer expectations and a growing list of feature requirements. XNA lets developers focus on game design, instead of writing mundane, repetitive boilerplate code.
Q: What does Microsoft XNA offer gamers?
A: Better games, better experiences, faster. Microsoft XNA lays the groundwork for enhanced, more unified experiences, including a common controller that can be shared between the Windows PC and Xbox.
Q: What does Microsoft XNA offer developers?
A: Microsoft XNA lets developers spend less time constructing and more time focusing on game creation. Microsoft XNA will:
- Enable developers to turn innovation into impact
- Help contain skyrocketing development costs
- Open up cross-device development opportunities
- Make it easier to make blockbuster games because Microsoft XNA is based on familiar development tools
- Allow game developers to focus on game design and spend less time fighting hardware complexity
- Enable life-like graphics, sound and movement
- Enable developers to design for Windows and Xbox simultaneously
Q: Why is Microsoft XNA needed right now?
A: Developers are demanding a better way to make games. They\'re inspired to deliver on new ideas but they\'re also limited by technology, tradeoffs, tight schedules and price tags. As a result, development costs are soaring while profit margins for developers shrink. The XNA software development platform makes working with cutting edge hardware easier, allowing developers to focus on game design, not "nuts and bolts" boilerplate coding.
Q: Does Microsoft XNA mean added costs for game developers?
A: No. XNA does not change the way that developers get tools from Microsoft today. The existing process for developers to get access to both the DirectX SDK and the Xbox XDK will remain the same. Costs for Microsoft XNA technology, tools, services and support will be the same as always. Microsoft XNA allows developers to put their money where it matters-making great games.
Q: Will Microsoft XNA drive the next generation Xbox or the next generation of Windows?
A: We believe fundamentally that SOFTWARE will define the next-generation. That\'s what XNA is all about. XNA is our next generation development platform that will drive games on a wide range of platforms. A focus on software provides continual innovation; we started that when we brought DirectX and Visual Studio from Windows with this generation of Xbox and with XNA we are taking that to the next level.
Q: What tools do developers get with XNA?
A: XNA tools will include DirectX and the High-Level Shader Language (HLSL), XACT, PIX and the Xaudio API, in addition to other development tools such as Visual Studio.
Q: Will developers be required to use every XNA tool?
A: All XNA tools are à la carte, meaning developers can use the parts and pieces they need to get their job done. These tools will allow developers to focus on writing the code that truly differentiates their games, and stop wasting time writing code just to get the basics up and running.
Q: Is Microsoft XNA the name of the next Xbox?
A: No. Microsoft XNA is the name of Microsoft\'s new software development platform that dramatically improves the way games are produced.
Q: When is the next generation Xbox shipping?
A: It\'s too early to announce future-generation Xbox products. That said, Microsoft XNA propels us ahead of Sony in the next-generation games race because the future of gaming is in software, not hardware. At GDC you are seeing some of the early possibilities of what the future will bring. Everything that comes to Windows and Xbox in the years to come is only going to get better and better in our never-ending quest to meet customer expectations and bridge the gap with developer realities
Q: What\'s the difference between Microsoft\'s XNA and Sony\'s Cell?
A: In the next generation, software-not hardware-will drive the games industry forward. Microsoft XNA software brings together chip and OEM partners to ultimately deliver thousands of integrated digital entertainment devices that work together and give consumers choice. Sony is talking about a fixed world of hardware that requires everyone to buy everything Sony. Sony\'s Cell is a hardware solution. This is a software revolution.
-
Beginnings (http://www.gamespot.com/all/news/news_2912498.html)
From GDC 2003
DirectX 9 will be the last DX release for a while, as Microsoft focuses resources on making bigger improvements for PC gaming in Longhorn, including introducing a standard controller.
At GDC, we had a chance to sit down with Dean Lester, the head of Microsoft\'s Windows Graphics and Gaming division, to hear about the software giant\'s major new project to make the PC a better gaming platform. Lester acknowledged that two or three years of the company\'s attention was focused on launching the Xbox, but he said that now it\'s the PC\'s turn. The PC gaming initiative has support from "Bill and Ballmer" on down, and it\'s enough of a priority that there are some 200 people working on it. Basically, Microsoft will make improving the PC gaming experience one of the central appeals of Longhorn, the next major version of Windows that\'s expected in about two years.
Before saying too much about where Microsoft is going, it\'s important to know where the platform stands. We\'ve seen major releases of DirectX nearly every year since the standard debuted in the early days of Windows 95. Lester revealed that DirectX 9 packs enough features to be future-proof and is a temporary stopping place for DX development. ATI, Nvidia, and other hardware companies have spelled out their road maps in enough detail that DX9 has previously unannounced support for all the next-generation graphics features, and as a result Microsoft doesn\'t expect to release another major DirectX update for a couple of years.
As has been rumored, Longhorn will likely include a major overhaul in Window\'s visual presentation, which may include 3D interface elements. Lester also said it would include a special "My Games" view that would centralize all the matchmaking, control panel settings, patching tools, and game lists and make such tasks much simpler. Microsoft is working on streamlining a number of current technical trouble areas, like the installation process and display drivers, and will centralize game updates through a Windows Update-like patch server. It\'s also looking into making it possible to run Windows games directly from the CD without installation. Somewhat more straightforward features include adding sophisticated matchmaking into Microsoft Messenger and parental controls over which users can play certain games.
There are a couple of parts of the initiative that will require wide industry support: new system requirements for retail packages and a standard for PC controllers. The current methods for listing system requirements are confusing and don\'t necessarily represent what\'s actually needed for a game to perform well. The plan is to set up a numerical system that categorizes and groups system levels, and when this goes into effect in 2005 or so, a level-1 system might represent the current or year-old value-priced PC configurations, while level 2 and level 3 group systems that define the mainstream and high-end performance of the time. As PCs progress, new levels will be added. Lester admitted that there were some challenges ahead to get the necessarily industry support, but he also noted that Longhorn would require the sort of general rethinking of PC standards that\'s accompanied previous Windows generations.
One of the bigger surprises came when Lester mentioned that Microsoft is working on a standard PC controller, which would allow a more seamless conversion of cross-platform titles and generally simplify the use of PC gamepads. To get the ball rolling, Microsoft will update its Sidewinder lineup with its own next-generation PC controller, but also expects other controller makers to follow suit. The heart of the controller initiative revolves around standardizing the number, type, and layout of buttons. In contrast to how it\'s now necessary to program PC gamepads for specific games, the standard should make things more plug-and-play.
Given that the gaming improvements will likely be touted as a reason to upgrade to Longhorn, Microsoft\'s business motivations for the project are fairly evident, particularly since the company\'s operating business is still it\'s most lucrative. But that in turn means there\'s some pressure for the initiative to be ready on time. Although all these elements are scheduled to be ready in time for Longhorn\'s roughly 2005 release schedule, Lester mentioned the possibility that some parts might be released at a later time.
GDC \'04 Keynote Transcript (http://www.microsoft.com/xna/gdc_keynote.aspx)
Game Developer Conference
Robbie Bach, senior vice president, Home & Entertainment Division, Chief Xbox Officer
J Allard, corporate vice president, Xbox
March 24th 2004 San Jose, CA
Partners:
as of 3/24/04
epic games
pseudo interactive
criterion software
criterion games
MGS
tecmo
ubisoft
climax
lionhead studios
valve software
sigil games
argonaut games
sammy studios
ncsoft
codemasters
high voltage software
visual concepts
ketsujin studios
vicarious visions
crytek
ndl
Havok
ait
nvidia
alias
discreet
factor 5
quazal
right hemisphere
secret level
softimage
touchdown entertainment
virtools
tools:
Criterion(renderware)
Alias(maya)
Virtools
M$(pix,hlsl,xact,visual studio,directx,xaudio,live)
Softimage(xsi)
ATI
Nvidia
Secret Level(udn)
Right Hemisphere(deep)
Touchdown Entertainment(jupiter)
NDL(gamebryo)
Discreet(3dmax)
Engines & Engine Components(Physics,Lighting,Ai,Networking,Audio)
(potentially from all associated)
Epic(unrealengine2,unrealengine2x,unrealengine3)
Valve(source)
MGS
Crytek(cryengine)
Havok(physics)
Virtools
Quazal(networking)
Touchdown Entertainment(jupiter)
NDL(gamebryo)
Secret Level(udn)
Developers/Publishers:
Factor 5
Ubisoft
Codemasters
Epic
Valve
Vicarious Visions
Secret Level
Crytek
Ketsujin Studios
Sammy(sega)
Argonaut Games
MGS(bungie,rare,fasa,bighugegames,etc)
Climax
Visual Concepts
Pseudo Interactive
High Voltage Software
Lionhead
Tecmo
Valve
Sigil Games
NcSoft
-
GDC 2004: XNA Interview (http://xbox.ign.com/articles/501/501373p1.html)
Damn, that\'s good for Windows; damn, that\'s good for Xbox; damn, that\'s good for gaming.
March 24, 2004 - I\'ve chatted with Dean Lester a few times now. As the head man for Microsoft\'s Windows Gaming Group, he\'s talked with us several times in the past, outlining his plans for the next versions of Windows and DirectX. So when we heard that we\'d be talking to him about Microsoft\'s next big announcement, we weren\'t too terribly surprised. After all, the Game Developer\'s Conference is a great forum for Dean to evangelize his games on Windows message. But when J Allard was also mentioned to us, we knew something was up. As head of the Xbox side of Microsoft Game Studios, he\'s a big name in the console community but doesn\'t have much of a presence on the PC.
When we were given the chance to interview the two men about the upcoming (and highly secretive) keynote address at this year\'s GDC, we suspected something was up. After chatting with them both for forty minutes, we knew they had big news.
Without further ado, take it away, J:
J Allard: Basically the game industry has some real challenges on their hands. Game prices haven\'t changed in 25 years. A game is fifty bucks and that\'s not going to change. What has changed are the production costs. Production costs, with each successive generation of hardware have just skyrocketed. Pac Man in 1982 sold ten million copies and cost a hundred thousand to develop. Before that there was one guy in a garage who was the designer, developer, artist, composer and tester...and also the publisher of the game.
Now we\'re into five- to ten-million-dollar games on average. What\'s worse is that a lot of them aren\'t coming to life; a lot of these titles are getting killed millions of dollars into development. The reason for that is that we don\'t have a robust platform. The way that the game industry has evolved has been chaotic in nature.
If you think about the two-year production cycle, the developers are spending the first three-quarters of that trying to get their pipeline up and running in a way that really unleashes the artist to go focus on what\'s important to us, which is the game design itself. So when you compress a game design itself into such a short period of time, you end up with a bad result. If you spend too much time in that production phase with little to show for it, publishers get wary, particularly if you\'re not a big name and your last title was a smash success and you\'re a little bit behind schedule. Publishers loose confidence very quickly.
When you add that up you get this negative cycle going in the industry that leads to more killed or rushed-out titles because of that pressure. When you kill a title, all the pressure for that title to perform gets added to the titles that are going to ship. It\'s really a tough spot. We\'re starting a cross-industry initiative to tackle that problem and stabilize the medium. It\'s our vision that if we stabilize the medium , the craft can take off. Instead of worrying about how to load the camera, and how to process the film and edit it, we can worry about where to point the camera and deliver the games that consumers want.
IGN: So how do you do that?
J Allard: The initiative that we\'re announcing is called XNA. The "X" represents that it\'s a cross-industry initiative that\'s rooted in two technology sources from Microsoft. One is DirectX, one is Xbox. The Xbox was grounded in DirectX from the beginning. That\'s our heritage. The "N" is next-generation. Our view is that software is the fuel for the next generation. While hardware advances are going to happen, the most important and significant advance is going to be in software. The "A" is for architecture. How do all the tools plug in to one another in a way that allows the designers to take the best tools, assemble them into a pipeline, add specific things that they want to add into that pipeline and get going with confidence that that\'s going to stitch together well. It\'s more like LEGOS and less like cutting down your own timber and trying to make your own notches fit together.
IGN: Let me clarify. In your quest to develop XNA as a standard, you\'re not advocating a one-size-fits-all approach. You\'re allowing developers to choose a suite of tools?
J Allard: Yeah, you\'re my general contractor and we\'re building a house together. What do you do? You go down to Sears and you buy a Stanley hammer, a Black and Decker saw, you\'re gonna buy a MAKITA drill, you\'re gonna mix and match tools that are appropriate for you. When you walk out the door, hopefully you don\'t have to make another trip. If you\'re remodeling the kitchen instead of building a new house you\'ll make a different set of selections; your budget is different and the scale of your team might be different. Every GC\'s trip to Sears looks a little different but Sears arranges everything on pegs and you\'re guaranteed that your power tools will all work in a three-prong outlet. There are standards in terms of nails and hammers and weights and gauges that allow interoperability between the guys that make the screws and the guys that make the screwdrivers.
If the three of us want to make a game, where\'s Sears? There isn\'t. We send you out to the Black and Decker store, and Dean to the Makita store and I go to the Craftsmen store. When we come back, hopefully, we have enough stuff to build the house but we\'ll probably have to make a few return trips. And then none of the stuff plugs into the same outlets. We have to rewire the freaking house before we even start to remodel. That\'s what game development is like today.
-
Microsoft XNA Support Sheet
"Alias heartily supports XNA. XNA will pave a single path for deployment of rich content from Maya across multiple Microsoft game platform environments such as Windows-based PCs and the Xbox."
Geoff Foulds, Global Games and Interactive Marketing Manager, Alias Systems
"Anything that makes the game developer\'s job easier, and removes some of the risk and some of the trial and error, is a good thing. We can concentrate on what makes a game good -- gameplay, content and visuals -- and not worry about fighting the hardware."
Jez San, Founder and CEO, Argonaut Games PLC
"We\'re excited to have been involved with XNA since its conception. We design hardware for developers so they get the high performance they expect under all circumstances, but it\'s equally important to provide software tools that remove the barriers to creating great content. The combination of ATI\'s hardware and Microsoft\'s XNA software will let game developers concentrate on what\'s most important: making blockbuster games."
Andy Thompson, Director of Strategic Marketing, ATI Technologies Inc.
"We are pleased to see that Microsoft shares our vision of helping developers make better games, faster, through use of their favorite middleware. We look forward to leveraging XNA in the RenderWare tool chain to implement Windows- and Xbox-specific features."
David Lau-Kee, CEO, Criterion Software
"XNA is a great software solution that provides efficient tools, middleware and production pipelines to create better games faster. We fully approve and support this next-generation strategy, as effectiveness has been our ultimate goal since the establishment of Crytek and the development of CryENGINE middleware."
Cevat Yerli, President and CEO, Crytek GmbH
"Discreet is excited to support game developers though Microsoft\'s new XNA initiative announced today. With the largest registered install base of 3-D animation software in the world, Discreet 3ds max software has been an integral creation tool for Microsoft Xbox game developers -- and the new XNA middleware platform will assist them in bringing high-quality games to market faster."
Marc Petit, Vice President, Product Development, Discreet (a division of Autodesk Inc.)
"It\'s the age-old problem of game development: how much time do you spend on your tools and technology and how much time do you spend on your game design? The better the tools and technology, the better -- and faster -- you can make your game. The more Microsoft does to provide developers with tools, the easier it is for game developers to develop better games."
Tim Sweeney, Founder and President, Epic Games
"We are extremely excited about XNA, both as a middleware provider and as a game developer. Tools are the only chance for future success in this industry, and never has this been more true than now. As we move into next-generation development, the expectations of gamers and the abilities of hardware open almost limitless possibilities for content creators. Without the right tools, developers will not be able to keep up with the pace -- XNA is what the industry needs right now.
Julian Eggebrecht, President, Factor 5 LLC
"Havok, as the leading supplier of physics middleware for the game industry, believes that only through increasingly sophisticated software components and tools that integrate seamlessly with each other can the power of the next generation of entertainment platform be leveraged by game developers. The XNA initiative is important for the industry in that it represents a commitment to providing the software infrastructure to make this happen. We are looking forward to leveraging XNA technology and participating in its success."
Dr. Steven Collins, Chief Technical Officer, Havok
"I want more of those up-front tools and more technology that we could use right away and learn from, because what we try to do is hire all creative people to figure out that answer. If I have to devote a lot of resources to technology, that\'s fewer resources that we can devote to creating a great game."
Brett Bourbin, Director of Technology, High Voltage Software
"If the right tools are available, we can worry about building the game and not building the software."
Marc Lutz, Chief Technical Officer, Ketsujin Studios
"XNA will enhance NDL in delivering Gamebryo\'s industry-leading cross-platform 3-D graphics engine and tools."
John Austin, CEO, NDL
"Microsoft\'s introduction of XNA presents an exciting opportunity for game developers to not only maintain a unified development environment while creating stunning content for multiple platforms, but to also focus on taking full advantage of the latest graphics technologies and shading effects to express their creative visions to the fullest. For NVIDIA, the availability of XNA presents a particularly exciting opportunity as our graphics technology continues to extend into new markets, such as handheld computing, where developers will be able to create and deliver 3-D gaming experiences like never before seen."
Mark Daly, Vice President of Content Development, NVIDIA
"The best thing a console provider can provide is a complete, robust environment where all the redundant generic stuff is taken care of. That frees us developers to work on the cool, specialized features that are going to make each of our games innovative."
David Wu, President and Technology Director, Pseudo Interactive Inc.
"We are extremely excited by the new XNA technology introduced by Microsoft. XNA empowers Quazal with tools to drive innovation even further on both Microsoft Windows and Xbox. In the end, Microsoft XNA is the starting point of a revolution that will bring game development to the next level."
Martin Lavoie, Chief Technology Officer, Quazal Technologies Inc.
"Developers have demanded an easier way to develop games, and Microsoft has responded. With HLSL and now with the XNA development environment, the process of writing shaders and creating visually stunning content is more accessible and simplified than ever before. Right Hemisphere shares Microsoft\'s goal to streamline the production pipeline for artists and programmers. Our Deep Exploration software is included in every Xbox developer kit so that assets may be created in most any application and previewed in real time on Xbox. What this does is allow for a smoother, less disruptive development process in which artists, engineers and programmers can focus on their core tasks and work more freely and independently of each other. Together, XNA and our WYSIWYG software take away some of the constraints and disruptions burdening the 3-D content creation process."
Michael Lynch, CEO, Right Hemisphere
"For tools and middleware developers like Secret Level, having our tools work across platforms is key. Good tools and middleware solutions will be vital on the next generation of game machines, and XNA is just what we need to support the development of cross-platform games simultaneously."
Reeve S. Thompson, Director of Production, Secret Level
"Today\'s developers demand the most advanced and flexible tools in order to produce out-of-this-world games. In unifying the Windows and Xbox development tools under the XNA software system, developers can now save time by designing multiplatform games, and focus on creating amazing content. Combined with SOFTIMAGE|XSI, they can make better games, faster than ever before."
Gareth Morgan, Senior Product Manager, Softimage Co. (a subsidiary of Avid Technology Inc.)
"At Touchdown, we have always been committed to providing tools that help developers focus on game content rather than technology development. We\'re looking forward to XNA, which will further expand the value of middleware to game developers."
Jeffrey Hutt, Technical Director, Touchdown Entertainment Inc.
"On the PC we have tools like HLSL. On Xbox, we have tools like PIX. These are both really powerful, and XNA combines the power of the PC and the power of the console into a best-of-breed platform."
Gabe Newell, Founder and Managing Director, Valve
"XNA allows us to leverage some of the great tools we\'ve come to rely on for Xbox development for PC games as well. We are excited about this, both as a developer whose games often bridge between the console and Windows worlds, and as a middleware licensor supporting teams working with both platforms. This is going to be a win-win for everyone."
Tobi Saulnier, Vice President, Product Development, Vicarious Visions Inc
"Virtools is proud to join the XNA program. We will provide even stronger middleware for the next generation, capable of dramatically easing the development effort and accelerating the time to market of high-quality games on powerful future platforms."
Bertrand Duplat, President and CTO, Virtools Canada Inc.
http://www.microsoft.com/xna/support_sheet.aspx
-
XNA Press Release
Microsoft: Next Generation of Games Starts With XNA
New Software Development Platform Integrates Innovations Across Industry
SAN JOSE, Calif. - March 24, 2004 - Microsoft Corp. today announced XNA™, a powerful next-generation software development platform. XNA empowers developers to deliver breakthrough games while combating rising production costs and ever-increasing hardware complexity. Games for future iterations of all Microsoft® game platforms - including Windows®, Xbox® and Windows Mobile™-based devices - will be unleashed by tools and technologies from the XNA development platform. XNA is the catalyst for a new ecosystem of interchangeable, interoperable software tools and technologies from Microsoft, middleware and game development companies. By integrating software innovations across Microsoft platforms and across the industry, XNA forms a common environment that liberates developers from spending too much time writing mundane, repetitive boilerplate code. Instead, XNA frees game creators to spend their time where it matters most -on the creativity that differentiates their games.
"Software will be the single most important force in digital entertainment over the next decade," said Bill Gates, founder and chief software architect of Microsoft. "XNA underscores Microsoft\'s commitment to the game industry and our desire to work with partners to take the industry to the next level."
The industrywide XNA initiative will be unveiled today in a keynote speech delivered by Microsoft\'s Robbie Bach, senior vice president of the Home and Entertainment Division, and J Allard, corporate vice president, Xbox platform, and chief XNA architect, to hundreds of game developers at the annual Game Developers Conference in San Jose, Calif. In the speech, Bach will outline some of the challenges that game developers will face in the near future.
"Silicon advancements and new features like high-definition and pervasive broadband will send game development costs skyrocketing," Bach is expected to tell conference attendees. "The video game industry must band together to find a solution that ensures vitality and sustainability for years to come, while responding to consumer desires for bigger, better games."
As part of the XNA unveiling, Microsoft also announced Allard\'s responsibility for overseeing and driving the XNA initiative companywide. "At the heart of XNA is choice. No game today is built with just one tool, and no game tomorrow will be either," Allard said. "By creating an environment where software innovations flourish and work together, XNA will allow game developers to redefine what\'s possible in games and give gamers the freedom to pursue their own paths. XNA closes the gap between what gamers want and what developers dream."
Illustrating the potential of the XNA development platform, Microsoft will make a series of announcements about its own video game tools and technologies in four key areas: online, input, graphics and audio.
In response to strong customer demand, Xbox Live™ development tools for functionality such as billing, security, login, friends and matchmaking will be made available to Windows developers. The tools will make it easier to create the same social, unified online gaming experiences on Windows that game players have come to expect on Xbox.
On the input front, as part of XNA, Microsoft will develop a common controller reference design and unify input APIs and button standards across multiple platforms. The result will be a family of common controllers for Windows and Xbox game players. In addition, the move will fuel a whole new wave of compelling, cross-platform input devices from peripheral manufacturers.
In graphics and audio, many tools such as PIX (an analysis tool) and XACT (an audio authoring tool) - previously available only to Xbox developers - now will be available on Windows as part of the XNA development platform. Likewise, innovations from Windows such as High-Level Shader Language (HLSL) will come to Xbox. The DirectX® API and the Visual Studio® development system will continue to be the baseline environment for both platforms. Collectively, these tools and technologies will enable movie-quality graphics while forming the impetus for new software that will help developers cope with the looming complexity of high-definition video and audio.
"On the PC we have tools like HLSL. On Xbox we have tools like PIX. These are both really powerful, and XNA combines the power of the PC and the power of the console into a best-of-breed platform," said Gabe Newell, founder and managing director of Valve Software LLC.
More than 20 game development and middleware companies already have recognized that XNA will drive advancements in the industry. David Lau-Kee, chief executive officer of Criterion Software, said, "We are pleased to see that Microsoft shares our vision of helping developers make better games, faster, through use of their favorite middleware. We look forward to leveraging XNA in the RenderWare tool chain to implement Windows- and Xbox-specific features."
"Because it\'s software, we can add new and improved XNA tools consistently, spurring continuous innovation in games. Developers won\'t have to wait for new silicon to enjoy the latest advances," said Dean Lester, general manager of Windows Graphics and Gaming Technologies at Microsoft. "The benefit to gamers will be dramatic leaps in production quality and gameplay for the next-generation Xbox and the next generation of Windows. And it starts today."
MS GDC Keynote Address (http://xboxmovies.teamxbox.com/content.php?id=612)
-
I have been hyped on XNA since it was first announced. I remember we had a discussion about it in the Main Forum and a couple guys swore up and down that it was the stupidest thing ever.
That is of course until Sony said something about doing pretty much the same thing. :rolleyes:
This is one of the best concepts in game desing in a long time. IMO, something like this could do wonders to pushing the whole video game industry to another level.
-
"Better games, better experiences, faster"
hmm, i donno.. I can see buggy, loss coding in future games. Meaning us needing more powerful hardware to run games on our machines that if done right a card for half the price could probably do.
-
hmm, i donno.. I can see buggy, loss coding in future games. Meaning us needing more powerful hardware to run games on our machines that if done right a card for half the price could probably do.
I can\'t make any sense of that. All this is doing is reducing the time needed to set up the all important work pipeline, making it easier for people to work together without the hassle of having to set up their own means.
Reading some of those comments it looks like this kind of thing is desired by quite a few companies. Those are some BIG names backing XNA.
time will tell...
-
hype
-
Next time you post, try making it more than one word or sentence. It might be hard, but I think you can do it. ;)
-
Playing WoW to much to care ;).
-
Originally posted by mm
hype
spammer :p
-
Originally posted by Ginko
I can\'t make any sense of that. All this is doing is reducing the time needed to set up the all important work pipeline, making it easier for people to work together without the hassle of having to set up their own means.
Reading some of those comments it looks like this kind of thing is desired by quite a few companies. Those are some BIG names backing XNA.
time will tell...
u don\'t think pre-built sdks won\'t make gaming codes more crappy.. Just look at the difference between Opengl and D3d.
SDK imo make developers slack, all the major work is done for them so they slap together a game as quick as possible and sell it. There a few companies that even bother to take the time these days.
-
agreed soulgrind.
Devs will get more and more Lazy with time. Why try to develop something new, when you can easilly use the already working XNA feature ?
Take weather effect rain. Is that mean that most game will have close to the same rain effect because Devs are too lazy to code new rain effect to their game? why spend 80 hours and 3 programmer to do it, when you can just use the XNA feature that is already available.
It\'s all good in the end. Devs will probably use less ressources in the overall creation and will spend the money on better voicing /music talent or such other feature. But we will lots and lots of game using the same code.
-
Originally posted by Nolaws
Devs will get more and more Lazy with time. Why try to develop something new, when you can easilly use the already working XNA feature ?
Take weather effect rain. Is that mean that most game will have close to the same rain effect because Devs are too lazy to code new rain effect to their game? why spend 80 hours and 3 programmer to do it, when you can just use the XNA feature that is already available.
That is the point. Why reinvent the wheel everytime you make a game when someone has already created a fully functional wheel? The whole point is that some companies will continue to work on their physics/graphic/sound/etc. engines leaving less work and resources for developers to extend and putting more time into the actual gameplay and story.
How good do you think movies would be if studios had to devote resources to designing new cameras/soundboards/microphones/etc before they could get around to making the movie? They would cost A LOT more and be A LOT less quality.
You don\'t seem to understand the whole concept. It is not the developers using an XNA feature for rain effects. It is XNA making it easy for developers to use another company\'s better designed and fully functional graphics engine for rain.
-
The point is, what if the already made wheel is poorly made... Unless they can develope it to a point where the coding is extremely well done, i\'ll never like it. I guess we\'ll see when games come out, but i\'ve got a feeling we\'ll need hardcore hardware for shit that could run if coded properly on half that.
-
I can picture now what SoulGrind is talking about and I sure dont like it if thats the case.
Remember MGS2?Everything was built on PS2 from scratch.It was like ":eek: I ve never seen anything like it before!I am amazed by the team\'s talent and effort put into the game".How many games have we seen using the same rain effects?None!And thank GOD!Its also each game\'s unique visuals that make gaming feel fresh and exciting.
We are waiting to see how much developers can get from the performance each time a big game is announced and what new graphic effects they will invent and implement.
When news about a new game from a big developer emerge we pay attention and have expectations to see something unique and different being squeezed from the hardware.
I dont want to see the same "good effects" and "similar good graphics" being repeated again and again in every game just because developers are lazy.
I only hope this wont happen.
-
I\'d trade in unique/different rain effects for unique/different gameplay anyday.
I think both the pro\'s and con\'s of XNA are being pretty majorly overstated. But if it helps developers, why not? They\'re not forced to use it, are they?
BTW, you realize that to save on physics processing power, that the rain splashing of the characters in MGS2 was actually a part of the character model?
-
I prefer BOTH
As for the last part its irrelevant.And that has mostly to do with hardware limitations.
-
Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
The point is, what if the already made wheel is poorly made... Unless they can develope it to a point where the coding is extremely well done, i\'ll never like it.
If the wheel is poorly made then they don\'t use. People are already using the tools of other developers. Companies are using the Unreal Engine for graphics and the Havok engine for physics. It is not like this is a new phenomena. XNA is supposed to make it easier.
Originally posted by Unicron!
Remember MGS2?Everything was built on PS2 from scratch.It was like ":eek: I ve never seen anything like it before!I am amazed by the team\'s talent and effort put into the game".How many games have we seen using the same rain effects?None!And thank GOD!
Yes and the game also cost $20+ million dollars to make and had an ass backwards story.
The rain was a testament to the designers\' ability to use the graphics engine.
Take for example these games:
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lucasarts.com%2Fgames%2Fswrepubliccommando%2Fimages%2Fscreenshots%2F56.jpg&hash=1994e6754900fc9a194cfd3cdba4036e55992580)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pandoratomorrow.com%2Fus%2Fss%2FSCPT_PC_05.jpg&hash=25d8a896e9f28dca8598f8637273ee4e39cf31aa)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xiii-thegame.com%2Fss%2FPC_mp_021.jpg&hash=a9330f9e74953c02e034c7e9bf6483b8e5b0ba38)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unrealtournament.com%2Fscreens%2Fpc%2F10b.jpg&hash=80af41c04efa4f0db02488af5f38d94a592f184e)
They are all using the same technology. It has just been tweaked by the designer. Just like the engines will be tweaked with XNA.
-
Those developers that make good games will continue to make good but in less time and money.
Those that make crappy ones will not benefit from XNA and thus we end up the soulgrind concept
-
Originally posted by Black Samurai
Yes and the game also cost $20+ million dollars to make and had an ass backwards story.
The rain was a testament to the designers\' ability to use the graphics engine.
Take for example these games:
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lucasarts.com%2Fgames%2Fswrepubliccommando%2Fimages%2Fscreenshots%2F56.jpg&hash=1994e6754900fc9a194cfd3cdba4036e55992580)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pandoratomorrow.com%2Fus%2Fss%2FSCPT_PC_05.jpg&hash=25d8a896e9f28dca8598f8637273ee4e39cf31aa)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xiii-thegame.com%2Fss%2FPC_mp_021.jpg&hash=a9330f9e74953c02e034c7e9bf6483b8e5b0ba38)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unrealtournament.com%2Fscreens%2Fpc%2F10b.jpg&hash=80af41c04efa4f0db02488af5f38d94a592f184e)
They are all using the same technology. It has just been tweaked by the designer. Just like the engines will be tweaked with XNA.
Despite all the pics you posted and despite the fact that they look better than many PS2 games none of them impressed me when I saw them.There was no wow factor.
This is something I felt with XBOX games.Many games looked better and impossible to be made on a PS2 but rarely made me :eek:
Thats becuase they are using standard methods.
Even Splinter Cell\'s rain effects were very standard compared to MGS2\'s despite that it was newer on more powerful hardware.
First pic:nice lighting effects and surfaces
2nd pic:Nice bumb mapping, textures, lighting effects and shadows
3rd pic:like any other game just using cell shading and bright colors
4rth pic:Nice lighting effects textures
There is no sense of substance.They are all using the same techniques and methods.They are significantly better looking in many aspects than games like ZOE2, MGS,Jak, R&C etc but it seems to be something these games lack for me
-
Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
u don\'t think pre-built sdks won\'t make gaming codes more crappy.. Just look at the difference between Opengl and D3d.
SDK imo make developers slack, all the major work is done for them so they slap together a game as quick as possible and sell it. There a few companies that even bother to take the time these days.
Bleh, Souly, you have absolutley no idea what you\'re talking about. You can\'t even make a \'hello word\' program and here you are acting high and mighty about the purity of software development. Everything is built on top of something. You can\'t just keep starting from the beginning because that is just completely stupid.
Just be quiet already.
-
uh oh..and here i thought only mm and soully gets into it around these parts...*sits back and waits for soully\'s response*..;)
-
owned
-
avvy, you\'re telling me companies don\'t use the same old crap to create games to make life easier and less expensive..
Very few companies design there own shit these days. They just base it off another company who has taken time to build (as example) engines, Havok, Unreal, Q3 etc etc. How many friggin rehashed games are based of these types of engines. But i know how slack u are, you\'re wanting to be one of these devs. I\'m not saying start from scratch, i\'m just saying don\'t be slack and expect good ol ms and other comps to do all the ground work for you. Advancement is made by the companies that take a step forward, not by companies that jump on the bandwagon. Good luck working for them.
Then theres games like for example, max payne, extremely well made game. Then games like the matrix that looked pretty much the same graphically but just sucked monkeys balls. Was poorly coded, needed way higher hardware just to even get close to the same framerate. Now, what if every company based there games of that engine, ohh goodie... Same is said with SDKs, a shitty one can = us paying through the nose just to play games that could easily run on half the system if it was just done better.
-
Uni, you\'re talking more about the art direction I believe.
-
Actually its the opposite.Unless the pics posted all show identical art direction.And they dont.
-
Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
avvy, you\'re telling me companies don\'t use the same old crap to create games to make life easier and less expensive..
Very few companies design there own shit these days. They just base it off another company who has taken time to build (as example) engines, Havok, Unreal, Q3 etc etc. How many friggin rehashed games are based of these types of engines. But i know how slack u are, you\'re wanting to be one of these devs. I\'m not saying start from scratch, i\'m just saying don\'t be slack and expect good ol ms and other comps to do all the ground work for you. Advancement is made by the companies that take a step forward, not by companies that jump on the bandwagon. Good luck working for them.
Then theres games like for example, max payne, extremely well made game. Then games like the matrix that looked pretty much the same graphically but just sucked monkeys balls. Was poorly coded, needed way higher hardware just to even get close to the same framerate. Now, what if every company based there games of that engine, ohh goodie... Same is said with SDKs, a shitty one can = us paying throw the nose just to play games that could easily run on half the system if it was just done better.
You know the reason why that matrix game ran like gravy was because they made their own thing. Leave the engine building to the experts. Q3, Unreal, that Hvock thing, Source, CryTech and Doom3 are all rearry rearry good engines (rearry). Most companies would be hard pressed to get 2/3 rd\'s of the way to making something equivalent and for several times the cost of just paying the license fee! The money is just better spent on making the game.
Also, paying for a shit game can easily be avoided. Just read freaking reviews and ask if anyone you know was stupid enough to get sucked in! :)
-
Apparently Soully won\'t understand until Sony announces something similar...
-
umm no, i understand perfectly. I\'m trying to get a simple point across and its falling on deaf ears...
-
because it\'s a stupid point. :p
-
pfffft, we shall see..... we shall see... muhahahahahaha.
-
Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
Then theres games like for example, max payne, extremely well made game. Then games like the matrix that looked pretty much the same graphically but just sucked monkeys balls. Was poorly coded, needed way higher hardware just to even get close to the same framerate. Now, what if every company based there games of that engine, ohh goodie... Same is said with SDKs, a shitty one can = us paying through the nose just to play games that could easily run on half the system if it was just done better.
You do know that XNA is not a game engine, right? It is a tool, a pipeline that can be found in ANY 3d studio house, however it hasn\'t been done on this grand a scale. XNA will allow, not force, developers to share assets.
Take all the big boy 3d animation packages (Maya, Softimage, 3dsmax), with them you\'ll find lots of prebuilt assets and all of them are customizable to the artist\'s liking. Why build a new human model when a perfectly good one is already available? Tweak it to your liking and run with it. XSI/Softimage for example has alot of prebuilt bone structures for different types of models (humans, animals, and variants thereof). Why on earth would you go through the time consuming project of building a new bone structure with inverse/forward skematics when a perfectly functioning one is just a button away?
Same with the rain example someone brought up, as long as these presets are entirely customizable then there\'s nothing to worry about.
Yes, there have been, are now, and always will be lazy developers who just plug and go for a quick buck. (cough...EA...cough) However there are still artists in the industry and always will be, those who have a love for the craft of game making. Tools like XNA will only make their job easier and give them more time and resources to be creative.
-
So they have the tools now , all they need to do is make the games that people are willing to buy and play.
That also go\'s for Sony and Nintendo..in fact in games in general.
God I hate Techno Babble and vapourware talk.
-
Originally posted by ooseven
So they have the tools now , all they need to do is make the games that people are willing to buy and play.
The tools are there but the infrastructure to use them is not readily available. Developers have to spend resources to get the tools to WORK before they even get to use the tools. That is counter productive.
-
Originally posted by Ginko
Same with the rain example someone brought up, as long as these presets are entirely customizable then there\'s nothing to worry about.
Ginko in what way will it be customizable though?
For example although both in Splinter Cell and MGS2 the specific effect represent rain they are totally different from each other.They are different effects that both represent rain.
It doesnt necessarily mean that the rain effects found in Splinter Cell cant be customized to look like MGS2\'s
-
Originally posted by Unicron!
Ginko in what way will it be customizable though?
For example although both in Splinter Cell and MGS2 the specific effect represent rain they are totally different from each other.They are different effects that both represent rain.
It doesnt necessarily mean that the rain effects found in Splinter Cell cant be customized to look like MGS2\'s
Rain is super easy to set up in a 3d animation program. You simply set up a particle generator, with that comes MANY variables as to how the particles act, and then define the objects it will be deflecting off of. The trick to getting a certain look is tweaking the behavior.
Some examples of particle variables are size, speed, life, count, and many more. Then you get to define how those particles behave on the objects they come in contact with (friction, bounce, and others) Not to mention that if you want to you can write your own right there in the program, then have it as a preset for future use. Even with that preset you can still go in and customize it.
I won\'t pretend to know how it\'s achieved in games since my experience is only that from rendered cg animation, though I can\'t imagine it being entirely different.
-
Wasn\'t XNA just a new name for DirectX?
-
Originally posted by Ginko
You do know that XNA is not a game engine, right? It is a tool, a pipeline that can be found in ANY 3d studio house, however it hasn\'t been done on this grand a scale. XNA will allow, not force, developers to share assets.
ehh i know that, its a SDK, guess what game engines are made with, i was using a friggin example.. a shitty SDK = shitty games just like a Shitty Engine = shitty games. All i\'m saying is all these companies jump on the XNA bandwagon, yet what else is there really to compare it too, how do we know it is the best type of "tool" out there.
Think of it like, if you\'ve ever only used one companies chisels, how do u know that theres not a better chisel making company around. I can\'t put into anything easy to understand then that..
Another example, say only Ps2 came out, no Xbox, No GC, No DC. Would u know any different?
-
Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
ehh i know that, its a SDK, guess what game engines are made with, i was using a friggin example.. a shitty SDK = shitty games just like a Shitty Engine = shitty games. All i\'m saying is all these companies jump on the XNA bandwagon, yet what else is there really to compare it too, how do we know it is the best type of "tool" out there.
Think of it like, if you\'ve ever only used one companies chisels, how do u know that theres not a better chisel making company around. I can\'t put into anything easy to understand then that..
Another example, say only Ps2 came out, no Xbox, No GC, No DC. Would u know any different?
Time will tell, but gauging from the responses given it seems that it\'s capable as the partners seem excited to be a part of it. Will someone come out and do it better? Possibly, but I have no doubt that MS, and being the software guru they are, will continue to improve upon XNA. Afterall, they want it to become a standard tool in the industry. One can\'t accomplish that by having an inferior product.
-
Originally posted by Ginko
Rain is super easy to set up in a 3d animation program. You simply set up a particle generator, with that comes MANY variables as to how the particles act, and then define the objects it will be deflecting off of. The trick to getting a certain look is tweaking the behavior.
Some examples of particle variables are size, speed, life, count, and many more. Then you get to define how those particles behave on the objects they come in contact with (friction, bounce, and others) Not to mention that if you want to you can write your own right there in the program, then have it as a preset for future use. Even with that preset you can still go in and customize it.
I won\'t pretend to know how it\'s achieved in games since my experience is only that from rendered cg animation, though I can\'t imagine it being entirely different.
You didnt get me.You described how you can utilize a rain effect but I was comparing two different effects.MGS\'s effects and Splinter Cell\'s are two different effects that represent rain.They are different.Its not the same rain effect programmed to look differently.
If you watch closely they are using different methods.It looks like they are using different kinds of particles and techniques.Its not the same method adjusted to look more realistic.
Because the rain effect and particles were created from scratch the programmers could make it look and programm exactly just like they wanted and create their own methods from zero.
When tools are created for general use they are trying to offer the appropriate library to be able to create nice effects easier.Its not made under specific preferences, and style and flexibility reaches as far as the tool is enabling.You ll be getting better gerater results but sooner or later you ll be getting diminishing results.Only the best developers can counter this problem becuase they have complete ability to create code and surpass.
While this seems like a good thing since it can let developers show their creativity otherwise couldnt we will be seeing a huge amount of good looking games that play crap since there is a huge amount of developers that arent as talented or as hard working being mixed with the games that come from hard working talented developers.You can see this in PC gaming.Support is HUUUGE surpassing console\'s support by difference but there is a greater amount of crap games at the same time or mediocre games with better graphics that all play the same.The wow factor in both graphics and gameplay isnt as extensive as in the console market even when PC gaming shows a game that surpasses most grate console games in every aspect.
In the console market though its diferent.Great graphics and great gameplay describe each other more often.The work of talented developers is more often evdient and distinguishable becuase of that.
Can you imagine how gaming would have been in the console market if we got 100 gothic games that look as good or better than DMC or 100 games that look as good or better than GT4 but may lack in gameplay?
The wow factor of true class games is reduced.Because so far gameplay and graphics keep up with each other in console gaming.
Its easier to distinguish the good game from the bad in console gaming compared to PC gaming
And XBOX had a similar problem to that of PCs.While a mediocre multiplatoform released game looked bad on PS2 it looked 10 times better on XBOX because it was more powerful and directx friendly.Xbox had tons of games that looked better than many PS2 games that lacked in gameplay.
I mean the XBOX was released with games that displayied graphics not seen on PS2 back then yet there was lack of quality games.DOA2 is nowhere as good as TTT but is greater in graphics in all aspects
On PS2 though sucky games usually were sucky looking.
-
That\'s a very long post and there\'s alot I\'m going to address from it, however it will have to wait until tomorrow. Until then...
-
ok :p
-
Originally posted by Unicron!
DOA2 is nowhere as good as TTT but is greater in graphics in all aspects
On PS2 though sucky games usually were sucky looking.
expect the player models. TTT had wicked models, Namco themselves said they\'d never do them like that again though. :(
-
Originally posted by Unicron!
When tools are created for general use they are trying to offer the appropriate library to be able to create nice effects easier.Its not made under specific preferences, and style and flexibility reaches as far as the tool is enabling.You ll be getting better gerater results but sooner or later you ll be getting diminishing results.Only the best developers can counter this problem becuase they have complete ability to create code and surpass.
Developers WANT standardized tools. They make the industry better for the producers AND the consumers. You are stuck on this rain issue. The same effect can be done with just about any of the tools available to developers. All that is needed are artists and programmers. A developer could take another engine and recreate MGS\' rain in less time than it took Konami to debug their engine. Prime example = Splinter Cell. Splinter Cell\'s graphics run circles around MGS\' by using the Unreal engine.
Here is a scenario:
- I tell two different companies to build me the BEST house possible in 3 months.
- Both companies have the same amount of money to build.
- Company #1 has access to standardized tools(ie. hammers, nails, saws, etc).
- Company #2 does not have access to these tools and either has to make their own or find something else that can do the job and figure out how to make it work for them.
No matter how talented Company #2 is they are going to be severely limited as to what they can build due to money and time. Company #2 has to overachieve to even be comparable with Company #1\'s capabilities. You could be looking at a Jetsons vs Flinstones situation.
-
ahm....Splinter Cell\'s rain effects suck.And its on a more powerful hardware.but if you compare the PS2 version of it with MGS2, Splinter Cell "cant do cyrcles"
And give attention to the whole point of my post.Not just a part of it because you get the wrong idea
Its these very same points you brought that worry me.What you said are the first thoughts.I brought the afterthoughts of these points.Its not rosy
-
Originally posted by Unicron!
You didnt get me.You described how you can utilize a rain effect but I was comparing two different effects.MGS\'s effects and Splinter Cell\'s are two different effects that represent rain.They are different.Its not the same rain effect programmed to look differently.
No, I described how to utilize particles to create a rain effect. That one tool can be used to achieve a limitless amount of effects, as far as particles go, only bound by creativity and understanding of the tool.
For example, you can use the particle emitter to make rain as well as things like sparks, fountains, waterfalls, and tornados. Not satisfied with the outcome? Go in and tweak the code and make it your very own, granted you need to know some programming,
but you just saved yourself alot of time to get your desired effect by using said code. Think of the available tool as a platform to jump from rather than having to build said platform.
If you watch closely they are using different methods.It looks like they are using different kinds of particles and techniques.Its not the same method adjusted to look more realistic.
Because the rain effect and particles were created from scratch the programmers could make it look and programm exactly just like they wanted and create their own methods from zero.
Just to stay focused let’s use the particle tool again. With that same emitter I have the option to choose not only how it behaves but also how it looks. (Triangles, squares, metaforms, or any object I make myself) Believe me when I say that it is up to the artist as to how they want their rain, and any other effect, to look. Get an effect that you like and you can save it as a preset for future use, build your assets so as not to start from scratch on every project. A little bit of tweaking of that preset can go a long way to achieving a new and unique result.
Another example is the 3d program I use, I prefer Lightwave. It\'s a 3d animation program with tons of tools, what\'s cool about Lightwave in particular is the community of users who write their own tools, or enhance the one\'s available, and share with everyone else. Case in point...someone wrote a program that sets up a 3 point lighting system in reference to a object. That saves me time from having to create those three lights, position them, set their values, etc. I can still customize anything about them at any time, but it ALWAYS proves to be a time saver even when I need to change a few things. So setting up those three lights myself when I have that tool available would just be a waste of time.
When tools are created for general use they are trying to offer the appropriate library to be able to create nice effects easier. Its not made under specific preferences, and style and flexibility reaches as far as the tool is enabling. You ll be getting better greater results but sooner or later you ll be getting diminishing results. Only the best developers can counter this problem becuase they have complete ability to create code and surpass.
It really depends on the tool being used. If you are specifically referring to the particle tool then there are no limits and its’ flexibility is entirely dependant on the extent of the users desired effect.
Other things like walking animations, lip-syncing, motion capture, camera effects, if and then events...why spend time creating something from scratch when you have that resource available? Tear it down and put it back together the way you want it.
There are many other examples like Splinter Cell and Unreal 2 use the same engine but don’t look or play anything alike. I’ll try to find a list of games that use the Havok and Unreal engines, there’s bound to be a pretty diverse portfolio for each ranging from sports games to fps. Point is that the developers have that resource, tear it down, take what they need and create everything else.
While this seems like a good thing since it can let developers show their creativity otherwise couldnt we will be seeing a huge amount of good looking games that play crap since there is a huge amount of developers that arent as talented or as hard working being mixed with the games that come from hard working talented developers.You can see this in PC gaming.Support is HUUUGE surpassing console\'s support by difference but there is a greater amount of crap games at the same time or mediocre games with better graphics that all play the same.The wow factor in both graphics and gameplay isnt as extensive as in the console market even when PC gaming shows a game that surpasses most grate console games in every aspect.
It\'s really up to the developer as to what they want out of the tool. Use it for the whole game or use it for a small part, again, XNA is an available tool. If XNA was so limited then I highly doubt it would have so much support behind it.
In the console market though its diferent.Great graphics and great gameplay describe each other more often.The work of talented developers is more often evdient and distinguishable becuase of that.
Can you imagine how gaming would have been in the console market if we got 100 gothic games that look as good or better than DMC or 100 games that look as good or better than GT4 but may lack in gameplay?
The wow factor of true class games is reduced.Because so far gameplay and graphics keep up with each other in console gaming.
Its easier to distinguish the good game from the bad in console gaming compared to PC gaming
I’ve seen many games with great graphics turn out to be mediocre or trash because that’s where all the time was spent. I’ve seen other games have amazing gameplay and so-so graphics. As for the clones, they’ve been around for ages. The games that grab the attention of gamers manage to rise above. As I said before, there will always be artist with a love for the craft of game making. Those games will be distinguishable.
And XBOX had a similar problem to that of PCs.While a mediocre multiplatoform released game looked bad on PS2 it looked 10 times better on XBOX because it was more powerful and directx friendly.Xbox had tons of games that looked better than many PS2 games that lacked in gameplay.
I mean the XBOX was released with games that displayied graphics not seen on PS2 back then yet there was lack of quality games.DOA2 is nowhere as good as TTT but is greater in graphics in all aspects
It really depends who you ask, I know several people who have around 30 games in their Xbox collection, and a couple who have over 50. If you were to ask them what they think of Xbox vs. PS2 then you probably wouldn’t hear what you want to.
-
Ok.I accept everything until my last three quotes.These three parts are pointing to the same thing.
But you didnt exactly got my point there.
Just to give you a hint its not about XNA being limited or bad.Its about developers willingness and usage of the tool
-
Originally posted by §ôµÏG®ïñD
expect the player models. TTT had wicked models, Namco themselves said they\'d never do them like that again though. :(
To tell you the truth TTT still amazes me graphically.I also get the impression that there is some form of bumb mapping (at Ogre\'s stage and Law\'s stage just look how the floor shines.Or Jin\'s stage.The wooden floor doesnt seem exactly flat)
-
XNA is not a magic wand, those lazy developers are still going to be left behind by those who are more capable and willing to work for exceptional results.
As for the PS2 vs. Xbox thing...even given PS2\'s unique architecture how many of the hundreds of games turned out to be "quality". Not all, not most, by any account. It is ENTIRELY up to the developer as to what effort they are willing to put forth.
-
Oh, yeah.. like you would know!!
-
Originally posted by Ginko
XNA is not a magic wand, those lazy developers are still going to be left behind by those who are more capable and willing to work for exceptional results.
As for the PS2 vs. Xbox thing...even given PS2\'s unique architecture how many of the hundreds of games turned out to be "quality". Not all, not most, by any account. It is ENTIRELY up to the developer as to what effort they are willing to put forth.
No.Bad developers arent left behind.They are never left behind.Bad developers also refers to developers that can do great graphics but sucky gameplay.You can see this already in PC gaming.Nobody can stop bad developers from offering great looking games with mediocre gameplay.And great graphics with medioce gameplay can sell
I didnt say it is a magic wand.And I didnt say that PS2\'s most games were quality.Read again my post.
On PS2 talented and good developers are more distinguishable.good graphics and good gameplay describe each other more often.Notice that I didnt say always.(I also dont mean that good games are more).So the fact that mediocre but good looking games on PS2 exist doesnt say much.There are always the exceptions
And the last sentence is were I am directing my point to.Developer\'s morale.
Whats the best motive?Money?Or creativity?Dont think of developers as artists or creators for a moment.Think of them as.....companies in an economy.
Also take my example of GT4 and DMC again.I didnt say that this games wont be distinguishable.The point is they wont be as much.The wow factor is reduced since other developers capable at producing good graphics with mediocre gameplay will produce games that look as good.While these AAA games distinguishable as a whole achivement now this achievement will be reduced.Because "companies" try to sell products that reminiscent other products and present them like rivaling ones because they care about selling.Gaming is adulterating more towards money profiting and less towards creativity.
This why so far my choice of gaming was never PC despite the better graphics and physics.
MS doesnt give shit about gaming.With XNA they want to "help" companies profit.Not to create.(this would also lead to increasing numbers of companies---.>increasing number of XNA support).They use the NO.1 motive of companies to make and present XNA as the NO.1 choice."Helping developers" intentions are only a show window.A vitrine
-
Originally posted by Unicron!
MS doesnt give shit about gaming.With XNA they want to "help" companies profit.Not to create.(this would also lead to increasing numbers of companies---.>increasing number of XNA support).They use the NO.1 motive of companies to make and present XNA as the NO.1 choice."Helping developers" intentions are only a show window.A vitrine
You act like Sony DOES care about gaming. Come on now you can\'t be THAT biased to think that Sony is looking out for the little guy. If XNA lives up to its potential it helps they developers profit margin(in that they have less expenses) and improves creativity(in that they have more resources to put towards being creative). The two are not mutually exclusive. You CAN improve profitability and creativity at the same time.
Originally posted by Unicron!
Gaming is adulterating more towards money profiting and less towards creativity.
Where have you been for the last 20 years?
-
Originally posted by Black Samurai
You act like Sony DOES care about gaming. Come on now you can\'t be THAT biased to think that Sony is looking out for the little guy. If XNA lives up to its potential it helps they developers profit margin(in that they have less expenses) and improves creativity(in that they have more resources to put towards being creative). The two are not mutually exclusive. You CAN improve profitability and creativity at the same time.
Did I say Sony is an angel?Did I mention Sony?What does Sony has to do with XNA anyways?The title sais XNA and I am talking about XNA.
What?Do you like the fact that Sony doesnt care?No?
Where have you been for the last 20 years?
I didnt say this was never happening before did I?(notice the verb adulterating.It is still adulterating towards there)
You like this continuous adulteration dont you?
-
Originally posted by Unicron!
Did I say Sony is an angel?Did I mention Sony?What does Sony has to do with XNA anyways?The title sais XNA and I am talking about XNA.
What?Do you like the fact that Sony doesnt care?No?
Are you even going to mention the idea of creativity and profit margin being mutually exclusive?
Originally posted by Unicron!
I didnt say this was never happening before did I?(notice the verb adulterating.It is still adulterating towards there)
You like this continuous adulteration dont you?
Do you know why this is? Because you need money, LOTS of money, in order to create a commercially viable game. When an industry is setup to discourage entry unless you have millions of dollars to spare you are eventually going to end up with only the richest companies at the table. Why do you think so many of the really good small developers have had to either shut down completely or move under the umbrella of a larger company? This is a business of selling creativity. Which basically means that all that matters is the bottom line. When you are able to eliminate that aspect of game development you open the door to the creativity of game designers.
Do you think a company WANTS to put out a bad product? They know their game is inferior but 9 times out of 10 the suits forced them to put it on the market because the cost of development was beginning to overshadow the projected revenue from sale of the game. When you have a system that cuts down on the development cost aspect of the equation your creativity and efficiency automatically increase.
BTW, You seem to think that a system like this would force developers to use a standard set of tools. There is nothing stopping someone, with the money and ability, from building their own "hammer". This just levels the playing field for those that don\'t have that luxury.
It is concepts like these that are going to pave the way for better quality independant game developers and games.
-
Originally posted by Black Samurai
Are you even going to mention the idea of creativity and profit margin being mutually exclusive?
Is it?ALWAYS?Do you see only quality selling?
And developers can put out a product they know it sells even if its not a quality product.Need For Speed series is one heck of a mediocre game that sells like hotcakes.Not that it has to do with XNA but just an example of a game that doesnt necessarily need to be great.Mediocre games sell.And it doesnt have to do with "lack of money"
Not only quality sells.
Earlier you agreed that gaming is adulterating toward profability and less towards creativity?What happened now?
Do you know why this is? Because you need money, LOTS of money, in order to create a commercially viable game. When an industry is setup to discourage entry unless you have millions of dollars to spare you are eventually going to end up with only the richest companies at the table. Why do you think so many of the really good small developers have had to either shut down completely or move under the umbrella of a larger company? This is a business of selling creativity. Which basically means that all that matters is the bottom line. When you are able to eliminate that aspect of game development you open the door to the creativity of game designers.
Do you think a company WANTS to put out a bad product? They know their game is inferior but 9 times out of 10 the suits forced them to put it on the market because the cost of development was beginning to overshadow the projected revenue from sale of the game. When you have a system that cuts down on the development cost aspect of the equation your creativity and efficiency automatically increase.
You didnt say anything I dont know.Thats somnething I adressed earlier but I added that it doesnt mean this is whats going to be happening.
And how it should have been is different from how it is
BTW, You seem to think that a system like this would force developers to use a standard set of tools. There is nothing stopping someone, with the money and ability, from building their own "hammer". This just levels the playing field for those that don\'t have that luxury.
It is concepts like these that are going to pave the way for better quality independant game developers and games. [/B]
Again its not about XNA being bad or good as a standalone tool.
-
Wasn\'t XNA just a new name for DirectX?
No. DirectX is only part of XNA.
-
No doubt will XNA make it easier for developers to port from PC to Xbox 2 and vice versa but it\'s funny that MS this time around states that it\'s about the software, when last time it was about the hardware when they knew the Xbox would be more powerful. Now that they are believed to have the inferior hardware, they try and hype up XNA so much to counteract Sony\'s hardware.
Anyway, looking forward to the next generation.
-
Originally posted by Unicron!
No.Bad developers arent left behind.They are never left behind.Bad developers also refers to developers that can do great graphics but sucky gameplay.You can see this already in PC gaming.Nobody can stop bad developers from offering great looking games with mediocre gameplay.And great graphics with medioce gameplay can sell
XNA is not for graphics, it is not an engine. It is a pool of resources designed to aid the developers in creating their games.
There have been shit games since I can remember, just as there have been exceptional games that are considered classics. You think that\'s going to change?
bdidnt say it is a magic wand.And I didnt say that PS2\'s most games were quality.Read again my post.
The magic wand theory is something I learned while taking some 3d animation classes. No matter how amazing the tool set is it will not make someone creative, it will not make a good film, game, etc. The tools are there to help the artist, they can’t do anymore than that. If a developer lacks the capacity to make a good game then no amount of tools, no matter how great, is going to change that.
Why would you blame MS for games with good graphics/bad gameplay selling? This trend didn’t start with MS nor did it escalate with them. If you want to blame anyone for the rise in shit games you can probably blame Sony for creating the massive casual gamer market who buys into the less than stellar titles then the developers who take advantage.
On PS2 talented and good developers are more distinguishable.good graphics and good gameplay describe each other more often.Notice that I didnt say always.(I also dont mean that good games are more).So the fact that mediocre but good looking games on PS2 exist doesnt say much.There are always the exceptions
And the last sentence is were I am directing my point to.Developer\'s morale.
Whats the best motive?Money?Or creativity?Dont think of developers as artists or creators for a moment.Think of them as.....companies in an economy.
Also take my example of GT4 and DMC again.I didnt say that this games wont be distinguishable.The point is they wont be as much.The wow factor is reduced since other developers capable at producing good graphics with mediocre gameplay will produce games that look as good.While these AAA games distinguishable as a whole achivement now this achievement will be reduced.Because "companies" try to sell products that reminiscent other products and present them like rivaling ones because they care about selling.Gaming is adulterating more towards money profiting and less towards creativity.
This why so far my choice of gaming was never PC despite the better graphics and physics.
Again, for every gem on the PS2 there are 30 games that are less than average. The fact that PS2 is more complex to develop for is no more discouraging to make shit games. I have a mountain of PS2 games to name in order to back that statement up.
Also, we both know that these people are in it to make money. Fact is that games are getting more expensive to make due to the time required to build assets, custom tools, resources, etc. That labor doesn’t come cheap either. Before you know it creativity is put in the back seat while profit is priority number one. What sells? Graphics sell! Hence the ever growing library of garbage available on all three consoles.
Having a greater arsenal of tools will benefit everybody, and think of it as the good developers will be even better because of it.
MS doesnt give shit about gaming.With XNA they want to "help" companies profit.Not to create.(this would also lead to increasing numbers of companies---.>increasing number of XNA support).They use the NO.1 motive of companies to make and present XNA as the NO.1 choice."Helping developers" intentions are only a show window.A vitrine
I think your bias is truly showing here, that or you\'re just ignorant to what MS has been up to. Money is always the bottom line for any business, that’s a given, but you can’t outright say MS doesn’t give a shit about gaming because you’d be wrong on several accounts. It’s been said in several interviews with various developers who publish with MS that they are given free reign to be creative. Second is the reason of this very thread, XNA. Software being developed by MS to help developers.
Read the recent partnering with Mistwalker. MS is publishing both games but has given them complete freedom to do whatever they want. Don’t believe me? Read the interviews yourself, both sides say the same thing. Look up some Rare interviews as well.
Need reason for XNA? Go read the first 3 posts of this thread, looks like alot of developers are excited for it.
Also, don\'t forget Sony\'s jumping into the standardized toolset as well. Look up Collada.
-
Originally posted by JP
No doubt will XNA make it easier for developers to port from PC to Xbox 2 and vice versa but it\'s funny that MS this time around states that it\'s about the software, when last time it was about the hardware when they knew the Xbox would be more powerful. Now that they are believed to have the inferior hardware, they try and hype up XNA so much to counteract Sony\'s hardware.
Ummm...you do know that ANY developer can use XNA, right? I believe there was an interview about a year ago now where someone said they\'d be thrilled if Sony and/or Nintendo would buy into it.
In other words, XNA is not Xbox exclusive. Xbox 2 will have to sell itself.
-
Originally posted by Ginko
XNA is not for graphics, it is not an engine. It is a pool of resources designed to aid the developers in creating their games.
There have been shit games since I can remember, just as there have been exceptional games that are considered classics. You think that\'s going to change?
.I never had the impression this was an engine.If you pay attention to my post you ll see in bold developers that are capable at making good graphics.
I am not refering to a reduction of good games.Or an increase of shity games.I am refering to an appearance of more selling mediocre games with great graphics.
As I said the wow factor of classic games that were great as a whole at both graphics and gameplay will be reduced.Because they were top as a whole.Including physics and graphics.As I said GT4 wouldnt have been the same if 100 racing games with the same looks and similar physics existed on PS2.This wouldnt have prevented GT4 from being succesful.Commercially games sell.But as a gamer it is spoiling my experience
This can change!
The magic wand theory is something I learned while taking some 3d animation classes. No matter how amazing the tool set is it will not make someone creative, it will not make a good film, game, etc. The tools are there to help the artist, they can’t do anymore than that. If a developer lacks the capacity to make a good game then no amount of tools, no matter how great, is going to change that.
Developers that can do good graphics i said......in bold....
Why would you blame MS for games with good graphics/bad gameplay selling? This trend didn’t start with MS nor did it escalate with them. If you want to blame anyone for the rise in shit games you can probably blame Sony for creating the massive casual gamer market who buys into the less than stellar titles then the developers who take advantage.
You repeat what Black Samurai said.And I never said MS started it up.And whats this with Sony again?What?You think its an effort to bash MS?
The title sais XNA!We are discussing about XNA!And I am refering to XNA!
Again, for every gem on the PS2 there are 30 games that are less than average. The fact that PS2 is more complex to develop for is no more discouraging to make shit games. I have a mountain of PS2 games to name in order to back that statement up.
Its not a matter of the existence of shity games!!You still dont get my point
Also, we both know that these people are in it to make money. Fact is that games are getting more expensive to make due to the time required to build assets, custom tools, resources, etc. That labor doesn’t come cheap either. Before you know it creativity is put in the back seat while profit is priority number one. What sells? Graphics sell! Hence the ever growing library of garbage available on all three consoles.
Having a greater arsenal of tools will benefit everybody, and think of it as the good developers will be even better because of it.
That part I can agree with since this seems to balance things up.
I think your bias is truly showing here, that or you\'re just ignorant. Money is always the bottom line for any business, that’s a given, but you can’t outright say MS doesn’t give a shit about gaming because you’d be wrong on several accounts. It’s been said in several interviews with various developers who publish with MS that they are given free reign to be creative. Second is the reason of this very thread, XNA. Software being developed by MS to help developers.
Read the recent partnering with Mistwalker. MS is publishing both games but has given them complete freedom to do whatever they want. Don’t believe me? Read the interviews yourself, both sides say the same thing. Look up some Rare interviews as well.
Need reason for XNA? Go read the first 3 posts of this thread, looks like alot of developers are excited for it.
Also, don\'t forget Sony\'s jumping into the standardized toolset as well. Look up Collada. [/B]
Again whats this about Sony and all???The only reason you debate with me is because you think I am trying to bash MS?You think all this, is about being biased againts MS?
Perhaps anyone who thinks XNA isnt only a good thing should shut up because they are doing it to bash MS.
If you want to change the discussion to "Sony are the ones to blame for shitty games" then create a new thread
-
Originally posted by Unicron!
Perhaps anyone who thinks XNA isnt only a good thing should shut up because they are doing it to bash MS.
Not everyone. Just you.
-
You wished
-
I\'m debating with you because I seriously don\'t understand your hangup with XNA. Just to show you that I\'m not taking sides here I also support the idea of Sony\'s Collada. Having tools that help the developers is a plus. If you go back and read the first few paragraphs of this thread you\'ll see these tools are an effort to standardize the tools that every developer has to make anyway. They pick what they want then they can make whatever else they need, their own special tools. Allard put it very simply with his general contractors building a house...read it for yourself.
Secondly, great gameplay will always trump graphic eye candy. The graphics lure someone in but they won\'t stay long if it\'s not worth playing. Do those mediocre games sell? Of course they do, there\'s a mass of people who buy them. There\'s obviously a market for them just as there\'s a market for the great games. They can co-exist just as they have been for the past couple decades. If you have a problem picking out the great from the good from the crap then you have every reason to be concerned. I have reason to believe most of everyone else will be just fine.
Your concern with GT4...do you really think Polyphony are going to share their trump card? All those thousands of hours they put into research and development? The meticulous detail of measuring every track, getting the look of every car just right, their physics fine tuned...you think they\'ll just give that to the competition? You think if someone managed to equal or better it they\'d be willing to share it? Those who go the extra mile, like Polyphony, will stand out. This won\'t change.
And the last part...you bashed MS by saying they don\'t give a shit about gaming. I replied.
Yes, these standardized tools are a double edged sword. It gives the lesser developers more capability and they\'ll continue to sell. Shame on the people who make those games and shame on the people who buy them...oh wait, I don\'t care. Again, the great developers will benefit from this just the same, those are the games I\'ll look forward to.
-
As I said I agree with these points but I also have my afterthoughts