PSX5Central
Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: GigaShadow on March 21, 2005, 08:05:51 AM
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Federal Judge Reviews Schiavo Case
Monday, March 21, 2005
PINELLAS PARK, Fla. — A federal judge is reviewing whether to impose an emergency injunction to reinsert Terri Schiavo\'s (search)feeding tube and has called a 3 p.m. EST hearing into the matter.
U.S. District Judge James Whittemore (search), who was nominated to the court in 1999 by former President Clinton, is considering an appeal filed Monday by Schiavo\'s parents. The move follows an unprecedented act by Congress and President Bush to step into the case of Schiavo, a severely brain-damaged Florida woman.
An attorney for her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, arrived at federal district court in Tampa and filed a request for an emergency injunction to keep their daughter fed.
When the attorney, David Gibbs III, was asked if he had any indication when the judge would rule on the request, he said: "I have no way to know, just that it\'s in the hands of the court."
Early Monday morning, Bush signed a bill designed to save the life of a severely brain-damaged woman, after lawmakers passed the measure at a late-night emergency session of Congress.
The so-called "Palm Sunday Compromise" allows a federal court to review the the case of Schiavo, whose husband Michael had the feeding tube that keeps her alive removed. The House of Representatives (search) voted 203-58 in favor of the bill shortly after midnight; the Senate unanimously passed it on Sunday afternoon.
The president cut short a visit to his ranch in Crawford, Texas and returned to the White House for a chance to sign the measure, which he did at 1:11 a.m. EST.
"In cases like this one, where there are serious questions and substantial doubts, our society, our laws and our courts should have a presumption in favor of life," Bush said in a statement after signing the bill.
The legislation says the federal court, after determining the merits of the suit, "shall issue such declaratory and injunctive relief as may be necessary to protect the rights" of the woman. Injunctive relief in this case could mean reinserting the feeding tubes.
Schiavo\'s father, Bob Schindler, thanked lawmakers but acknowledged that "we still have a few hurdles yet."
"I\'m numb, I\'m just totally numb. This whole thing, it\'s hard to believe it," he told reporters outside his daughter\'s hospice.
Schiavo\'s feeding tube was removed Friday upon a district judge\'s order, after a House lawyers\' emergency request to intervene was denied. Congress quickly scrambled to move the case to a different venue, on the chance that a federal court might order an injunction on the removal of Schiavo\'s tube until it can be determined whether Schiavo\'s husband, Michael, or her parents, have the authority to decide to keep her alive or let her starve to death.
Doctors say Schiavo, 41, is in a persistent vegetative state and will not fully recover from a heart attack she endured 15 years ago. If the case goes to a federal court, Schiavo\'s tube could be reinserted while the ruling is deliberated. Her parents and siblings insist Schiavo is responsive to their encouragement.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150988,00.html
This has been in the headlines for weeks leading up to her feeding tube being removed so I thought I would post it here to see some opinions.
Personally, I don\'t think Congress should have gotten involved, but at the same time I also feel something isn\'t quite right about the husband\'s timing and motivation to have it removed.
I have seen video of her following a balloon that a family member is moving over her head and responding to her father when he talks to her so I have a hard time believing this woman is brain dead. The husband has already moved in with another woman and they have 2 children. He has obviously moved on with his life, why not just divorce her and let the parents who want to take care of her do it? There was no living will and the husbands claim that she didn\'t wish to be on feeding tubes surfaced seven years after she had been in this state and it happened right after Terri\'s lawyers won a huge medical malpractice suit.
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I think its wrong to kill her..
Are they really claiming she is brain dead? I saw a video showing a person hugging her or whatever, and she looked at the person and it looked like she was smiling.
I have to agree with Bush for once, dont kill her. :)
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My psychology teacher was really upset about it this morning. All she would say is that its down right scary that they would pass a law for just one person.
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Yea, honestly this is getting way more attention then it deserves. Who gives a fuck.
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All I have to say is if I\'m in that state hook me up with a very large does of something that will put me away for good. But her family can do what ever they want with her, I wonder what this woman would do to herself as far as dieing or keeping herself alive.
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Let the courts decide. Oh... they already did? Well ok then.
Congress has no business wasting taxpayer dollars intervening in a situation that\'s already been decided by the duly appointed authorities in our medical and judicial systems.
Republican congressmen and the president are doing this simply for political gain; to score points with the pro-life zealots in their constituiency. They can\'t make abortion illegal, so they figure they might as well throw them a crumb by making an example of a brain dead middle aged woman.
Furthermore, in 1999 as Texas governor, George Bush signed a law "which allowed hospitals to withdraw life support from patients over the objections of the family, if they consider the treatment to be nonbeneficial." Why the change in direction?
Oh, one last thing... Current ABC poll: http://abcnews.go.com/images/Politics/978a1Schiavo.pdf
Removal of feeding tube
Support 63
Oppose 28
Federal Intervention
Support 35
Oppose 60
Appropriate for Congress to get involved?
Appropriate 27
Not Appropriate 70
Reason political leaders are trying to keep Shiavo alive
Concern about Shiavo 19
Political Advantage 67
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Good God you are using an internet poll as a statistic? LMAO
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Not an internet poll.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/PollVault/story?id=599622&page=1
This ABC News poll was conducted by telephone March 20, 2005, among a random national sample of 501 adults. The results have a 4.5-point error margin. Sampling, data collection and tabulation by TNS Intersearch of Horsham, Pa.
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Bleh so I was wrong - it looks just like the MSNBC moonbat poll. Anyway, I seriously doubt those numbers are near accurate.
And since you launched a tirade against Republicans isn\'t it the Demorats who want to save everyone on the planet except for their fellow Americans?
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How mature :rolleyes:
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Why not try refuting any of the points I made, or post your own poll?
Why is it that Republicans constantly yammer about government waste and the sanctity of the Constitution, yet when their OWN CONGRESSMEN SQUANDER taxpayer dollars attempting to circumvent the separation of powers and overturn a perfectly legitimate judicial decision, they are strangely silent? "Everything\'s fine because it\'s OUR guys doing it, right?" WTF???? It\'s called a DOUBLE STANDARD.
The public doesn\'t want this. The appeal is pointless. The Parent\'s lawsuit will fail. This is all a WASTE OF MONEY and EFFORT. Congress has better things to do than this.
Maybe you should have thought twice before starting this topic.
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god damn, you guys can\'t let a single thread exist without it turning into a republican vs. democrat pointless feud.
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bleh, you know the footage that\'s shown on TV? it doesn\'t show you the whole picture, so you can\'t really make any useful inferences from a 3 second video clip! the clips are shown for their editorial value too, so in a case like this, short clips are fundamentally and inherently unreliable (as is the case with most situations). SO LAHHH!
MRI scans or whatever show her brain is fucked. There is no decernable brain activity that suggests she\'s even asleep. What she\'s doing is just random reflexes! So let her die with what dignity she has left and say sorry for making her a political apple.
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OR SHOULD I SAY CABBAGE!
AGHARHAHHAHRHAHHGHARHA
:)
/me run
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Congress has better things to do than this.
Like making sure people don\'t cheat at baseball?
Aahahahha.
Politics = a joke.
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Originally posted by Coredweller
Why not try refuting any of the points I made, or post your own poll?
Why is it that Republicans constantly yammer about government waste and the sanctity of the Constitution, yet when their OWN CONGRESSMEN SQUANDER taxpayer dollars attempting to circumvent the separation of powers and overturn a perfectly legitimate judicial decision, they are strangely silent? "Everything\'s fine because it\'s OUR guys doing it, right?" WTF???? It\'s called a DOUBLE STANDARD.
The public doesn\'t want this. The appeal is pointless. The Parent\'s lawsuit will fail. This is all a WASTE OF MONEY and EFFORT. Congress has better things to do than this.
Maybe you should have thought twice before starting this topic.
Why don\'t you acknowledge that our judicial system is infested with activist judges like the one from the original case who are angry about other judicial rulings getting overturned by this adminstration (ie. the Pledge of Allegiance, etc). Our judicial system has become a joke with judges interpreting the Constitution as they see fit. This ruling is nothing short of what the Germans did with the mentally handicapped during World War II.
Maybe you don\'t realize that this is cruel and unusual punishment in that even a convicted murderer would not be treated in this manner. This woman isn\'t being allowed to die she is being killed. This woman is breathing on her own and only needs food and water to survive - apparently this is too much of a burden for her husband and the judge.
In this case there was no living will and the judge accepted hearsay from the husband and his sister (7 years after she fell into a coma) as her not wanting to be kept alive. I am sorry, but that isn\'t clear cut proof she wanted to not be kept alive and public opinion as to whether the feeding tube stays in or doesn\'t is pointless - this isn\'t the Colliseum in Rome. If you were at all interested in the law you would acknowledge that hearsay isn\'t admissible in court, yet this judge allowed it.
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Yep. What Avatarr said - the video does not show the hours and hours of zero emotions, the catatonic state. The parents of the woman showed only the few moments when the face would just randomly start smiling.
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http://www.psx2central.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=36223
Couldn\'t add a poll to this thread. So I made another
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Well, the way I see this is, is it\'s one person\'s word vs. another in a sense. The bottom line is, he\'s still the Husband, and he\'s got the right to do as he sees. It\'s nice that the parents still want her alive, but the bottom line is, she\'s been in a catatonic state for the past 15 years, and she isn\'t going to magically come out of it.
The bottom line is, the Husband has the right to pull the feeding tube, not the parents -- sure, it seems a little suspicious, but that\'s how the law works. The Parents can appeal as much as they want, but it isn\'t going to do them any good, it\'s not a special case, there have been cases like this before, and just because Bush passes a bill for one person, it\'s not going to do much.
See Yuz.
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I think its funny how Bush is all about "protecting the liberty of life" yet he cooked convict after convict down in Texas.
Let this chick die.
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We discussed this case in class today. I didn\'t really care at first, but it has finally got my attention.
From what we discussed, the girl can\'t even FEEL hunger. She would die painless and without any kind of special way to kill her. The husband is using what she told a friend, if she was ever to be in such state, she said she would rather die than live like that.
Also, I think it\'s selfish in the parent\'s part. Their daughter is gone. What they have now is a body without any brain. Their daughter is no longer with them. They are keeping her alive in order to satisfy their unwillingness to let go. They should. They are keeping her alive for themselves. If they really loved her and they knew that she wants to just die in peace, they should just let them pull the plug. I would understand if she had hope and it was only six months. But FIFTEEN YEARS? Hope has been long gone out the window.
And guess who is paying for all of this treatment? The taxpayers!
The Government shouldn\'t interfere with such decisions. DeLay wants to keep her alive to give her the "medical treatment" she needs. So what were the last fifteen years about? Doctors say there is no hope, nothing can be done.
On the government side of this, this is sadly a stab at euthanacia(sp) Jeb Bush put the tube in the last time they took it off. And now big brother is stepping in. Seems more of a personal religious or political reason than an honest attempt to help this case out.
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
We discussed this case in class today. I didn\'t really care at first, but it has finally got my attention.
From what we discussed, the girl can\'t even FEEL hunger. She would die painless and without any kind of special way to kill her. The husband is using what she told a friend, if she was ever to be in such state, she said she would rather die than live like that.
Also, I think it\'s selfish in the parent\'s part. Their daughter is gone. What they have now is a body without any brain. Their daughter is no longer with them. They are keeping her alive in order to satisfy their unwillingness to let go. They should. They are keeping her alive for themselves. If they really loved her and they knew that she wants to just die in peace, they should just let them pull the plug. I would understand if she had hope and it was only six months. But FIFTEEN YEARS? Hope has been long gone out the window.
And guess who is paying for all of this treatment? The taxpayers!
The Government shouldn\'t interfere with such decisions. DeLay wants to keep her alive to give her the "medical treatment" she needs. So what were the last fifteen years about? Doctors say there is no hope, nothing can be done.
On the government side of this, this is sadly a stab at euthanacia(sp) Jeb Bush put the tube in the last time they took it off. And now big brother is stepping in. Seems more of a personal religious or political reason than an honest attempt to help this case out.
Why don\'t you get all the facts on this case instead relying on your brain dead teacher. She went into a coma, her husband sued for medical malpractice and during this time she was receiving therapy and responding to it. The malpractice case ends in the husbands favor - he cuts off her therapy and suddenly remembers she said at some point years ago that she didn\'t want to be kept alive with tubes.
Secondly, taxpayers keeping her alive? Since when did food and water become a burden to liberals such as yourself? We feed, give medical treatment and educate plenty of illegal immigrants with tax payer money yet you don\'t complain about that.
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lol, Giga, that\'s awesome...somehow it\'s still the Liberals fault, I like it :)
Eh, as far as I\'m concerned, the case seems pretty open and shut to me...the Parents really have no power here, and the Husband is technically still married to her. He\'s got the right to do what he wants, and that\'s just how the law goes -- they can appeal as much as they want, but a "change of heart" isn\'t going to happen by the Federal Courts.
See Yuz.
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Let me just say this... if the husband had been married to her for 20 years while she was healthy and hadn\'t hooked up with another woman and father 2 children with her, I would agree with you ROL that he should have the rights to decide her fate, but he has no interest in this other than keeping the medical malpractice money. Why else would he have stayed married to her for all this time while being in a "common law" marriage with another woman? He could have easily divorced her and moved on with his life years ago, but he didn\'t. You have to ask why as this makes no sense other than greed.
Since there was no living will, why not let the parents care for their daughter? I see no harm in this at all. This isn\'t a pro life or religious issue for me - it is simply letting those who truly care for this woman decide her fate as opposed to someone who doesn\'t.
One could argue that she should be "put out of her misery", but since none of us know with certainty that she isn\'t happy or aware of her surroundings this really isn\'t the issue. They interviewed some woman who was in a similiar state who recovered and she stated she was fully aware of what was going on around her. Does that mean this woman does? Absolutely not, but my feelings behind my position are that her husband does not care for her wishes and instead of doing the right thing by divorcing her and letting the parents/family care for her he is doing the exact opposite.
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I thought all the malpractice money was already spent.
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Not to my knowledge. There is also a life insurance policy on her as well with him and his "common law" wife as the beneficiary. Here is a sworn federal affidavit by an RN about Michael Shiavo from over one of the many trials. Pretty scary stuff...
9. Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused
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on Terri\'s death. Michael would say "When is she going to die?,"
"Has she died yet?" and "When is that bitch gonna die?" These
statements were common knowledge at Palm Gardens, as he would make them casually in passing, without regard even for who he was talking to, as long as it was a staff member. Other statements which I recall him making include "Can\'t anything be done to accelerate her death - won\'t she ever die?" When she wouldn\'t die, Michael would be furious. Michael was also adamant that the family should not be given information. He made numerous statements such as "Make sure the parents aren\'t contacted." I recorded Michael\'s statements word for word in Terri\'s chart, but these entries were also deleted after the end of my shift. Standing orders were that the family wasn\'t to be contacted, in fact, there was a large sign in the front of her chart that said under no circumstances was her family to be called, call Michael immediately, but I would call them, anyway, because I thought they should know about their daughter.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1006944/posts
Stranger still is that Shiavo and his attorney have some business connections to the hospice where Terri is staying. Coincidence? There is so much stuff on the internet about this whole case and how things just don\'t add up. Michael Moore should do a film about it!
This isn\'t a poltical issue - this is a miscarriage of justice. If Shiavo signed away the insurance policy and waved the rights to where she was buried, etc. I might actually believe he has her best interests at heart.
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SHe\'s dead. SHe\'s been dead for many many years.
You do realize that you are paying for her to be in that bed right?
You do realize that you have been paying for that bed for many many years right?
They should give her custody back to the parents, but make them pay for the bed. If they want her to stay "alive" then let them perform their own little experiment on their own dime.
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I am not sure if any taxpayer money is involved in this. Also who are you to say she is dead? Playing God now are we?
I do agree that the parents should have custody and then move her to a private facility or to their home and hire a nurse for her care.
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Michael Schiavo may be a bad guy, I don\'t really know. All this stuff about his motivations is still speculation. The fact is that he has the law on his side. We can\'t make exceptions to the law just because we don\'t like somebody\'s personality or we think they have shifty eyes. The court decision must be based on an objective application of law and precedent. That is what has happened over the last seven years.
This is what the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals said: "There is no denying the absolute tragedy that has befallen Mrs. Schiavo," the ruling said. "We all have our own family, our own loved ones, and our own children. However, we are called upon to make a collective, objective decision concerning a question of law."
That\'s what I support. An objective decision based on The Law.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Why don\'t you get all the facts on this case instead relying on your brain dead teacher. She went into a coma, her husband sued for medical malpractice and during this time she was receiving therapy and responding to it. The malpractice case ends in the husbands favor - he cuts off her therapy and suddenly remembers she said at some point years ago that she didn\'t want to be kept alive with tubes.
Secondly, taxpayers keeping her alive? Since when did food and water become a burden to liberals such as yourself? We feed, give medical treatment and educate plenty of illegal immigrants with tax payer money yet you don\'t complain about that.
I could really use a link for all of the stuff you just said.
I rely on my teacher because, I don\'t know, she has a degree on history and political science. She\'s seen cases like this and used to be a lawyer. I don\'t know. Too many credintials for you maybe.
It\'s not a burden. I never said that. It\'s just useless. No point. The lady feels nothing. All she is now is a human body. Nothing else.
Wasn\'t Bush the one that signed that law in Texas that allows the hospital to pull the plug if it is necessary? I believe so. Also, since when does congress have the right to interfere in a state matter, Republicans have most of the time stood up for state rights. Now that they control the federal government, they choose to do the opposite.
This isn\'t a political issue. This is an ethics issue. Ethics that the GOP supposedly holds very high in their agenda. It is not ethical to let somebody live in such a state only so the parents don\'t have to go through the process of actually acknowledging their daughter is no more.
Playing God?
HAHAHA. That sounds VERY hypocritical. Honestly, what country has the state that has executed more people than a freaking country\'s population?
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
I am not sure if any taxpayer money is involved in this. Also who are you to say she is dead? Playing God now are we?
Wow, thats a bit of a stretch.
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Originally posted by Coredweller
Michael Schiavo may be a bad guy, I don\'t really know. All this stuff about his motivations is still speculation. The fact is that he has the law on his side. We can\'t make exceptions to the law just because we don\'t like somebody\'s personality or we think they have shifty eyes. The court decision must be based on an objective application of law and precedent. That is what has happened over the last seven years.
This is what the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals said: "There is no denying the absolute tragedy that has befallen Mrs. Schiavo," the ruling said. "We all have our own family, our own loved ones, and our own children. However, we are called upon to make a collective, objective decision concerning a question of law."
That\'s what I support. An objective decision based on The Law.
Nor do you want to know if he is a bad guy. Entrusting this man to make a decision on a woman\'s life without considering his motivations is idiotic. Maybe if you took the time to read about this man and his attorney as much as I have you might question the legal proceedings that have occured.
The parents are asking for a stay - to examine all the facts before she dies - I don\'t think that is asking too much. The dissenting opinion even stated so.
In a strongly worded dissent, Judge Charles Wilson said refusing the parents\' appeal frustrates the intent of the U.S. Congress, "which is to maintain the status quo by keeping Theresa Schiavo alive until the federal courts have a new and adequate opportunity to consider the constitutional issues raised by plaintiffs."
I don\'t see the harm in letting the judicial system take its time on this while issuing a stay keeping her alive to see what the outcome is. How can you argue against this? The court options haven\'t been fully exercised as the parents attorney if given the time could appeal again to the 11th Circuit and have a 12 judge panel review it, but without food or water there will be no time to do this.
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
I could really use a link for all of the stuff you just said.
I didn\'t know this, but looks like Shiavo\'s attorney is looking to cash in on Terri\'s death by writing a book.
http://www.sptimes.com/News/052501/Floridian/The_spirit_and_the_la.shtml
As for George Felos being the Chairman of Suncoast Hospice:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1002504/posts
Everything in the case stinks - you don\'t have to be a rocket scientist to see it.
Look it up your self - here http://www.google.com
Originally posted by SirMystiq
I rely on my teacher because, I don\'t know, she has a degree on history and political science. She\'s seen cases like this and used to be a lawyer. I don\'t know. Too many credintials for you maybe.
Sounds like a TV movie in the works... lawyer quits high paying job to teach minority children in poverty stricken neighborhood. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by SirMystiq
It\'s not a burden. I never said that. It\'s just useless. No point. The lady feels nothing. All she is now is a human body. Nothing else.
Brain damaged - not brain dead.
Originally posted by SirMystiq
Wasn\'t Bush the one that signed that law in Texas that allows the hospital to pull the plug if it is necessary? I believe so. Also, since when does congress have the right to interfere in a state matter, Republicans have most of the time stood up for state rights. Now that they control the federal government, they choose to do the opposite.
I talked about this with Core earlier in this thread or was it the other thread? thanks to vid I can\'t keep track anymore...
Originally posted by SirMystiq
This isn\'t a political issue. This is an ethics issue. Ethics that the GOP supposedly holds very high in their agenda. It is not ethical to let somebody live in such a state only so the parents don\'t have to go through the process of actually acknowledging their daughter is no more.
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Yes it is ethical - as I have said before Michael Shiavo does not have his disabled wife\'s interest at heart, he has dollar signs in his eyes. Once again Terri Shiavo is not brain dead - anyone who can look around and attempt to communicate is not dead. Her situation has been made worse by her husbands refusal to give her therapy after the malpractice case. As you can see by my link in one of these threads two RN\'s have stated in a sworn affidavit that they have seen Terri Shiavo try and communicate and have witnessed her husband obstruct any form of therapy attempted.
Originally posted by SirMystiq
Honestly, what country has the state that has executed more people than a freaking country\'s population?
WTF? Speak english.
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Update: Supreme Court last stop. I doubt the Supreme Court will even agree to hear it... really sad the creep is going to get "his" wish and some money to boot.
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I am not sure if any taxpayer money is involved in this. Also who are you to say she is dead? Playing God now are we?
If the human race did not try to play god she would already be dead. Every time someone go\'s on life support we are playing god or if we give them medicine that cured them of a fatal disease that it playing god.
Nobody is playing god by saying she should be dead, because when it comes down to it, she should.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
I didn\'t know this, but looks like Shiavo\'s attorney is looking to cash in on Terri\'s death by writing a book.
http://www.sptimes.com/News/052501/Floridian/The_spirit_and_the_la.shtml
As for George Felos being the Chairman of Suncoast Hospice:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1002504/posts
Everything in the case stinks - you don\'t have to be a rocket scientist to see it.
Look it up your self - here http://www.google.com
Sounds like a TV movie in the works... lawyer quits high paying job to teach minority children in poverty stricken neighborhood. :rolleyes:
Brain damaged - not brain dead.
I talked about this with Core earlier in this thread or was it the other thread? thanks to vid I can\'t keep track anymore...
Yes it is ethical - as I have said before Michael Shiavo does not have his disabled wife\'s interest at heart, he has dollar signs in his eyes. Once again Terri Shiavo is not brain dead - anyone who can look around and attempt to communicate is not dead. Her situation has been made worse by her husbands refusal to give her therapy after the malpractice case. As you can see by my link in one of these threads two RN\'s have stated in a sworn affidavit that they have seen Terri Shiavo try and communicate and have witnessed her husband obstruct any form of therapy attempted.
WTF? Speak english. [/B]
I thought her looking around was nothing more than reflexes or nerves just acting up?
And Giga, believe it or not yes. She did quit her job, because she became some sort of feminist, dumped her husband and went off on her own. I also have a teacher that has a PhD on chemistry...teaching chemistry. That man could be making major bucks, I\'ve never asked why he teaches. And another of my teachers, Mr. Wilson, used to work for Frito Lay and he invented or had to do with the creation of the Sun Chips and their bag. But something happened and they ripped him off and he now is a teacher.
You mean TYPE English.
And yes, I admit that sentence needs some fine tuning. But again,
WE HAVE BEEN PLAYING GOD FOR ALONG TIME! This girl has nothing to do with anybody, NOBODY in congress knew this girl and somehow they set out out save her. Just one person out of the entire population. I guess they needed to feel useful.
BTW, Bush oversaw the most amounts of executions in Texas in the world! Playing God.
And could is right.
Giga, I doubt you want whats best for this woman. You seem to be more blinded by the appereant greed that her husband has and you seem to only wish that the husband doesn\'t get the money so many say he wants. Have you ever thought about the woman at all?
The doctors have all said NOTHING CAN BE DONE. It\'s like putting in new batteries on a stereo that no longer plays music.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
I am not sure if any taxpayer money is involved in this. Also who are you to say she is dead? Playing God now are we?
I do agree that the parents should have custody and then move her to a private facility or to their home and hire a nurse for her care.
She\'s on Medicare or Medicaid. Whatever it is you be payin\'.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
I don\'t see the harm in letting the judicial system take its time on this while issuing a stay keeping her alive to see what the outcome is. How can you argue against this? The court options haven\'t been fully exercised as the parents attorney if given the time could appeal again to the 11th Circuit and have a 12 judge panel review it, but without food or water there will be no time to do this.
My word. It\'s been years and years and years of this. Try living in Tampa. We have been getting updates on this mess monthly for 10 years.
It has made it\'s way through appeals and appeals.
The Shindler\'s have never won a single thing. Unless of course you call filing appeals a win.
THey just appealed to the Supreme Court. Now when they shoot it down, will it then be all appeals exhausted?
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Once again Terri Shiavo is not brain dead - anyone who can look around and attempt to communicate is not dead. Her situation has been made worse by her husbands refusal to give her therapy after the malpractice case. As you can see by my link in one of these threads two RN\'s have stated in a sworn affidavit that they have seen Terri Shiavo try and communicate and have witnessed her husband obstruct any form of therapy attempted.
WTF? Speak english.
Terry only posesses what we are born with. When you touch a baby\'s hand, the hand will close around your finger. THe baby doesn\'t know it\'s doing it. It\'s just instinct.
Same thing happens with Terry. They are reactions.
And don\'t forget the video you are seeing is five years old. She has been in this state for a very very very long time. She has made absolutely no advances what so ever. Numerous doctors who have been at her side all have said she is in a PVS. The only doctors I have seen say anything positive for her always have a footnote that they have no first hand interaction.
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And then yesterday a Nobel Prize winning Dr. stated that she was in a minor state of consciousness. See this is the point - no one can say for sure she is dead. I honestly don\'t see why most of you here wish to hasten her death when quite possibly the courts got it wrong.
Of course she has made no "advances". Michael Shiavo has not allowed any sort of therapy. Once again I ask why won\'t he give guardianship of this woman over to the parents? He wasn\'t married very long to her and he couldn\'t possibly know her better than her parents.
I also like how you avoid the sworn affidavits. Obviously, they don\'t support your argument so why give them any thought?
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The Nobel Prize winning Dr. has never seen Terry Shaivo. Guess you forgot to throw in the little footnote.
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The judge has never seen Terry Shaivo either - guess we are even.
You also failed to respond to my question yet again - why not let the parents assume gaurdianship? Why won\'t Michael Shaivo do so? Where is the harm in this? I have heard both sides say they have heard what Terri would have wanted, but both are hearsay.
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i haven\'t chimed on this yet...heh everything that i was gonna say has been stated already,...i basically for the most think that they should just let her die...she\'s been like that for what? over 15 yrs?...what people don\'t understand is that she is not the only person in the united states with that condition..there are countless others in the same situation...if the gov\'t steps in to stop the wishes of the husband....that will open the flood gates for the other families that want their loved ones to be saved....
i would want my family members to live forever as well, but if they were in the state she\'s been in...especially for the amount of time she\'s been in...i\'d just let them die...
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
The judge has never seen Terry Shaivo either - guess we are even.
You also failed to respond to my question yet again - why not let the parents assume gaurdianship? Why won\'t Michael Shaivo do so? Where is the harm in this? I have heard both sides say they have heard what Terri would have wanted, but both are hearsay.
But the judge heard testimony from doctors who WERE by her side.
You leave out a lot of little details.
And by the way. The doctor that Busch had hang out with her also says she is at a PVS.
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How sad that the parents want to keep their daughter alive and they can\'t do a damn thing about it.
There is way too much excitement by some to let this happen. Very sad indeed!!!
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Originally posted by Ace
How sad that the parents want to keep their daughter alive and they can\'t do a damn thing about it.
Whats so terrible about this? They need to move past their dead daughter.
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Originally posted by videoholic
But the judge heard testimony from doctors who WERE by her side.
You leave out a lot of little details.
And by the way. The doctor that Busch had hang out with her also says she is at a PVS.
Slow down, Vid. Don\'t cloud this thread with too much relevant information. Giga needs time to download the latest talking points on this nonissue.
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Originally posted by Bozco
Whats so terrible about this? They need to move past their dead daughter.
i agree...and ace, we\'re not bein cruel about, we\'re bein realistic about it...
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Originally posted by Bozco
Whats so terrible about this? They need to move past their dead daughter.
What\'s so terrible? Oh, I don\'t know. I guess it ranks right up there with the family pet dying. My bad, sorry.
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Yeah, but you usually get over a dead pet dying 15 years after it\'s officially dead :-P
See Yuz.
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See, that\'s the thing, I don\'t equate people with pets. I know we live in a culture of death (just count up the abortions) but these parents are doing what a lot of us might do if we were in their place. I will not judge them for wanting to keep their daughter alive.
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FYI: It would appear that Carla Iyer\'s affidavit is bullshit, and I think it would be unwise to rely on it for anything. NONE of the legitimate news outlets bother to mention her. She is only a topic of discussion among bloggers and conservative zealots.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200503230001
Judge George W. Greer, the Florida circuit judge who has presided over several aspects of the Schiavo case, dismissed Iyer\'s allegations as "incredible" and noted in a September 17, 2003, order that not even Terri Schiavo\'s parents sought her testimony in the case.
"The remaining affidavits deal exclusively with events which allegedly occurred in the 1995-1997 time frame. The court feels constrained to discuss them. They are incredible to say the least. Ms. Iyer details what amounts to a 15-month cover-up which would include the staff of Palm Garden of Lago Convalescent Center, the Guardian of the Person, the Guardian ad Litem, the medical professionals, the police and, believe it or not, Mr. and Mrs. Schindler. Her affidavit clearly states that she would "call them (Mr. and Mrs. Schindler) anyway because I thought they should know about their daughter." The affidavit of Ms. Law speaks of Terri responding on a constant basis. Neither in the testimony nor in the medical records is there support for these affidavits as they purport to detail activities and responses of Terri Schiavo. It is impossible to believe that Mr. and Mrs. Schindler would not have subpoenaed Ms. Iyer for the January 2000 evidentiary hearing had she contacted them as her affidavit alleges."
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Hannity mentioned her last night on Hannity and Colmes and interviewed the other nurse Erica Law. You also failed to mention CNN had her on as well.
As for Media Matters - liberal site FYI. They even say so.
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Originally posted by Ace
What\'s so terrible? Oh, I don\'t know. I guess it ranks right up there with the family pet dying. My bad, sorry.
Too bad she died forever ago and they won\'t let it go.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Hannity mentioned her last night on Hannity and Colmes and interviewed the other nurse Erica Law. You also failed to mention CNN had her on as well.
As for Media Matters - liberal site FYI. They even say so.
The link was intended to give you access to a quotation from a Florida Judge, not some nameless liberal from mediamatters.org.
Hannity & Colmes is on Foxnews, that bastion of reason and thoughtful discussion. :rolleyes: What more do I need to say? Prior to this, she appeared on two television programs, CNN\'s "Live From..." and Fox News "Fox and Friends." I don\'t consider either to be a legitimate, respectable news source. Why is this not reported by any newspapers, or used by the Schindlers to support their arguments? It\'s because those who understand the case realize she is not a credible witness.
Just do a search on her name in google, and take a look at the domain names that mention it....
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Carla+Iyer&btnG=Google+Search
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LMAO Fox and CNN not legitimate news sources. And you said I was fringe? :laughing:
You do know giving a false affidavit is a crime do you not? If it was why didn\'t Judge Death charge them?
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She was discussed on some worthless pundit shows where the most important factor is sensationalism. Do you watch that crap? I don\'t for good reason. It\'s not news, it\'s entertainment.
Tell me why this hasn\'t appeared in any real newspapers. There is a difference in quality between the many levels of media available to us. You have made no effort whatsoever to evaluate this source. You merely like what she\'s saying, so you choose to believe it and push it on us as some kind of unassailable hidden agenda.
Are you a conspiracy theorist, Giga? Do you believe that the convalescent center staff, medical professionals, police, and the parents all conspired to keep this information secret? Who\'s wearing the aluminum hat now? :laughing:
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Please media is media - and while you may prefer some over others, you can not deny that these outlets do report the news. What the two nursing assistants have said is all about Michael Shiavo - not about Terri\'s condition. Actually they don\'t dispute what the medical examiners have stated about her condition.
You still fail to see what I have an issue with in this case - Michael Shiavo. Once again I ask - what is the harm in letting her live and be cared for by her parents? You still have managed to dodge that question.
No there is no conspiracy here, just one person who is being selfish.
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well what is the law? id she\'s still married to her husband..and if she told him that she didn\'t want to live in that state then case closed...she\'s married to her husband...not her family...
i mean i really just know that part of it..maybe this cat wanna see other women...and if that\'s the case i really can\'t blame him...and he might feel kinda gulity bein with somebody else while his ex wife is in the hospital....
ultimately tho the gov\'t shouldn\'t have gotten involved in this matter...
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Originally posted by clips
well what is the law? id she\'s still married to her husband..and if she told him that she didn\'t want to live in that state then case closed...she\'s married to her husband...not her family...
i mean i really just know that part of it..maybe this cat wanna see other women...and if that\'s the case i really can\'t blame him...and he might feel kinda gulity bein with somebody else while his ex wife is in the hospital....
ultimately tho the gov\'t shouldn\'t have gotten involved in this matter...
There are other factors here clips - Terri\'s close friend had stated that things weren\'t all that great with their marriage and Terri was getting ready to leave him. Then again we won\'t know the truth. I tend to believe from what I have heard about the guy that her parents would have been the better choice to have guardianship due to the length of time they were married, the health of the marriage and Mr. Shiavo\'s current living situation.
What we do know is that Shiavo\'s character and actions have repeatedly been brought up by people involved in the case - the CNA\'s, the family and friends of the family. Unfortunately, we will never find out what her true wishes were.
In any event, this story is over. Barring some radical move by Jeb Bush or the 11th Circuit this matter is closed.
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The sad tale of Terri Schiavo, minus the three ring circus
3/25/2005 3:47:50 PM, by Jonathan Gitlin
In the proud tradition of Ars, we\'d like to encourage some intelligent discussion on this matter by trying to do what so many in the media have failed to do, which is actually talk about the case, rather than the circus surrounding it. Now, this case clearly raises several important issues regarding the separation of powers and the relationship between not only the federal and state governments, but also the judiciary. Such are the symptoms of a complex conflict involving technological advances, the nature of scientific knowledge, and the very definition of life.
Unless you\'ve been in a persistent vegetative state for the last two weeks, you cannot have escaped the furor surrounding the case of Terri Schaivo. To recap, 15 years ago Terri Schaivo suffered a heart attack caused by an eating disorder. This deprived her brain of oxygen for about 14 minutes, which caused significant brain damage. Of the different cells that make up our bodies, neurons are particularly sensitive to hypoxia, and will rapidly die off. They are also notorious for their inability to regrow. Following this event, Mrs Schiavo fell into a persistent vegetative state:
A persistent vegetative state (commonly, but incorrectly, referred to as "brain-death") sometimes follows a coma. Individuals in such a state have lost their thinking abilities and awareness of their surroundings, but retain non-cognitive function and normal sleep patterns. Even though those in a persistent vegetative state lose their higher brain functions, other key functions such as breathing and circulation remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur, and the eyes may open in response to external stimuli. They may even occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh. Although individuals in a persistent vegetative state may appear somewhat normal, they do not speak and they are unable to respond to commands. For more, see: http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/coma/coma.htm
Over the next few years, her husband pursued aggressive treatments to try and help his wife recover, including an experimental treatment involving the implantation of electrodes in her brain to stimulate neuronal growth. Despite these treatments, there has never been any improvement in her condition and she remains unaware, non-sentient and dependent on a feeding tube. Her husband, Michael Schaivo was close to the Schindlers, her parents, to the point where they encouraged him to begin dating, and they lived in the same house for several years.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Farstechnica.com%2Fimages%2Fnews%2Fnormal.jpg&hash=a02cd35a193f6ba205c8dbcd74f53bcfc9b70442)
CAT scan of a normal brain
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Farstechnica.com%2Fimages%2Fnews%2Fschiavo.jpg&hash=95d44d8f6f49772e444e2da8a8dd1b70c8dfb598)
CAT scan of Mrs. Schiavo\'s brain
The controversy begins in 1998. Once he realized there was no hope of a recovery, Mr Schaivo petitioned the Florida courts to remove her feeding tube, claiming that Terri would not have wanted to be kept alive in a PVS. Although her parents protested this, the court found in favor of Terri\'s wishes, and so began several years of legal battles, all of which were decided in favor of Terri Schaivo\'s right to withdraw treatment. Her parents have presented arguments to the court claiming spousal abuse, false diagnosis and that Terri\'s wishes had been misinterpreted. Each time, the courts in Florida have rejected these claims as lacking credibility, but backed by religious conservative right-to-life campaigners, the Schindlers have kept appealing.
In 2003, having been turned down repeatedly by the courts, the Schindlers successfully lobbied Gov. Jeb Bush to pass "Terri\'s Law" that would restore her feeding tube. Terri was hospitalized and the tube was replaced. The matter went back to the courts yet again, where once more the Schindler\'s claims were found to be without merit. Furthermore, "Terri\'s Law" was struck down by the Florida Supreme Court as unconstitutional, and eventually March 18th 2005 was set as the date the feeding tube would be removed. Repeated appeals by the Schindlers failed, and on Friday 18th March the feeding tube was removed. As you likely know, congressional Republicans decided to intervene. Embattled House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-TX) engineered special legislation over the weekend, despite Congress being in recess for Easter, that gave the Schindlers standing to bring the case before a Federal Judge. Prior to this, the federal courts had refused to hear the case, citing lack of jurisdiction. President Bush cut short one of his holidays in Texas to fly back to Washington to sign the legislation into law, citing the importance of a culture of life.\' Critics quickly noted that Bush passed legislation in Texas in 1999 that allows hospitals to withdraw treatment from patients despite family wishes in cases where there is no hope for recovery.
From here the case moved through the federal court system, to the Eleventh Circuit court of appeal, where the Schindler\'s appeals were denied due to no substantial likelihood of success. In-depth details of the legal cases can be found here. Despite the claims of Terri\'s parents and her supporters on the religious right, each examination has shown that she is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery. Comparing a 1996 CT scan of her brain to a normal brain, it is possible to see the atrophied areas throughout the cerebral cortex (above and to the sides of the large ventricles in the centre). Although there have been calls for an MRI scan, MRIs use powerful magnets for imaging and would cause the implanted electrodes to act as a blender inside her skull.
With no higher brain function, Terri Schiavo exists in a form of limbo - able to breath uninterrupted, her eyes move and she vocalizes. According to physicians who have actually diagnosed her in person, she displays no awareness of her surroundings, is unable to swallow, and any consciousness or personality died in 1990. Campaigners to reinsert the feeding tube have claimed that she has been misdiagnosed, on the basis of 4 minutes of edited footage, allegedly showing responsiveness. They have also claimed that Michael Schaivo is only concerned with benefiting financially from Terri\'s death, although it must be noted that there is little money left from a malpractice settlement, he has repeatedly turned down offers of large amounts of money to walk away, and unlike the Schindlers, he has not signed any book or TV deals. Some claim that medical advances could repair her brain damage, although the irony of these claims from such vehement critics of stem cell research are not lost on your correspondent. Despite questionable medical diagnoses from afar, in reality there is no hope of any recovery in this case. Public opinion overwhelmingly rests with Michael and Terri Schiavo, although there is some distaste over simply withdrawing her feeding tube and allowing her to die from dehydration. But as euthanasia remains illegal in the US, there is no other option.
The blogosphere has been on fire over this issue, with increasingly shrill calls from commentators decrying the judiciary and Michael Schaivo. Others castigate the Republicans as false champions of states rights and limited federal government, since they were so quick to try and overrule Florida\'s courts.
Barring Terri Schiavo having a secret Living Will somewhere, what do you think is the appropriate solution to this matter, and what should society take away from what may be the first of many such challenges in the future?
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050325-4737.html
idiots = PWN3D.
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Looks like you made things a bit wuiet around here nonamer. ;)
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nonamer and so many others just don\'t get it.
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Originally posted by Ace
nonamer and so many others just don\'t get it.
I have to agree.
BTW what is arstechnica? It won\'t even display for me.
But with quotes like this only an idiot would link it and then claim "idiots=pwn3d" :rolleyes: :
Despite questionable medical diagnoses from afar, in reality there is no hope of any recovery in this case. Public opinion overwhelmingly rests with Michael and Terri Schiavo, although there is some distaste over simply withdrawing her feeding tube and allowing her to die from dehydration. But as euthanasia remains illegal in the US, there is no other option.
This is euthanasia - plain and simple.
Vid, the only reason it is quiet in here is because there is nothing more to say on the issue. The appeals are finished, the courts have decided - its over.
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Link worked for me. arstechnica.com is a well known site.
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Oh no wonder - its a PC enthusiasts site. No problem with the article for what it is - a post on a PC enthusiasts site.
Problem with linking it as some sort of factual article that proves its points beyond a shadow of a doubt as was the nonamer\'s intent. It raises good points, but as this case has proven there is a lot of gray area we the public aren\'t priviledged to.
After reading the discussions there it seems 2 out every 3 posters appear have an MD and knows for a fact this woman is feeling no pain due to their glancing at the catscan images. :rolleyes:
Anyway, as I have said before - most people are getting it wrong. The real issue here is Michael Shiavo being the guardian when he obviously has a conflict of interest in this. No one here who supports the tube being removed has answered my question - why not let the family be the guardian? Now they are having to sue to get a proper funeral for her?
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I don\'t think it is obvious that Michael Schiavo has a conflict of interest in being the legal guardian.
One aspect you haven\'t mentioned Giga is that perhaps Terri Schiavo really did express a desire to not be kept living as a vegetable. In that case, I consider it important to respect her wishes and permit her to die. Some people consider that kind of existence the worst hell imaginable. It\'s not just a question of keeping the parents happy by granting them guardianship and letting them pay for it. There\'s also an issue of freewill. She\'s not just a slab of meat, she is a human being who once chose her own fate. I think that is what Michael Schiavo has been fighting for against considerable opposition for many years.
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Then explain this statement:
The full exchange featuring Schiavo\'s contradiction went like this:
KING: Michael, what do you expect to happen? Congress is in recess now, they have to come back into special session. The Supreme Court could put a stay on it. What do you think is going to happen?
SCHIAVO: I don\'t think the Supreme Court is going to put a stay on it. And I hope and implore that everybody call their legislators. They have to stay out of people\'s personal lives. There\'s no place for government. Call them and tell them.
KING: Have you had any contact with the family today? This is a sad day all the way around, Michael. We know of your dispute.
SCHIAVO: I\'ve had no contact with them.
KING: No contact at all?
SCHIAVO: No.
KING: Do you understand how they feel?
SCHIAVO: Yes, I do. But this is not about them, it\'s about Terri. And I\'ve also said that in court. We didn\'t know what Terri wanted, but this is what we want.
KING: You\'re not – it didn\'t cost you anything. This is not something where you\'re looking to save money?
SCHIAVO: No. There\'s no money involved. We need to move on from that question. That question has been asked me 50 million times. There is no money! ("Larry King Live," March 18)
He contradicted himself on national TV. Something is terribly wrong with this case - maybe its the judge, maybe its the Schindler\'s team of lawyers - I don\'t know.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0503/18/lkl.01.html
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I have to tell you honestly and sincerely that I don\'t think those few words prove anything. In other parts of the interview Michael Schiavo mentioned several times that he was supporting Terri\'s choice in the matter. Schiavo could have been referring to something else when he said "we didn\'t know what Terri wanted." Why did he put it in past tense? I think the context of the statement is not fully available to us.
Earlier in the interview his attorney said this:KING: Hold it Michael -- on hearsay, George, thought, the only word that she said that is Michael\'s, right, George?
FELOS: No. That\'s not correct. Because she made those statements to her best friend, Joan and also to her brother-in-law. There were three witnesses and numerous statements to those witnesses over different periods of time. I don\'t want to be kept alive artificially. No tubes for me. I want to go when my time comes. If I ever had to be dependent upon anyone, I wouldn\'t want to live that way.
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"We didn\'t know what Terri wanted" in the past tense is correct, until he decided what she wanted.
Once again he flipped the story - first it was Terri told him, now it is her best friend Joan, etc... sorry Core - there are way too many inconsistances here.
As for the argument she is in no pain - it is being reported she is now bleeding from the eyes and the mouth. Yeah this is real humane. Where are the numerous people who stated this would not be gruesome?
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
This is euthanasia - plain and simple.
I don\'t know. I just can\'t equate giving someone a pill/injection to kill them with NOT giving any treatment.
If that were the case then people who couldn\'t afford life saving procedures would be victims of euthanasia.
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BS, you got some nips showing? Or is that just wishful thining....
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=512&ncid=2074&e=1&u=/ap/20050328/ap_on_go_co/brain_damaged_woman_delay
Tom DeLay\'s dad was injured in an accident in 1988, reduced to a vegetative state, and it only took the Texas Republican one month to pull the plug on his own father. The only difference between this case and Terri Schiavo: DeLay\'s mother "agrees with her son that Schiavo might have a chance of recovering if her feeding tube were reinserted." Whereas doctors advised the DeLays in 1988 that their patriarch would "basically be a vegetable." Isn\'t that what the doctors told Terri Schiavo\'s parents? When did DeLay change his mind about euthanasia? Apparently sometime before he said "This is a critical issue for people in this position, and it is also a critical issue to fight that fight for life, whether it be euthanasia or abortion." http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1040968,00.html
Tom DeLay is such a worthless two-faced weasel. He has no interest in the ethical questions of this case, or the rights of Schiavo\'s family, be it the next-of-kin, or the parents. He\'s only in it for political gain, and even that is going to bite him in the ass when this story about his father gets around.
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Core take off your liberal blinders - these are two totally seperate cases with entirely different circumstances. DeLay\'s father was on a ventalator and a kidney dialysis machine along with a feeding tube - all keeping him alive. Terri was breathing on her own - you and the liberal MSM are trying to make this into the same case which it isn\'t. This story has been around for a week - and no matter what George Soros and the other liberal scum try and do by manipulating the media - this won\'t come back and "bite him and the ass".
By this reasoning anyone who can\'t feed themselves should be euthanized - Christopher Reeve would have fallen into that category. Rights of the Schiavo family? You mean Michael? :rolleyes:
I wouldn\'t want to be this man. The same nuts that blow up abortion clinics probably wouldn\'t hesitate in taking his POS ass out. Why do I say this? There are no winners in this situation. No happy endings for anyone. The politicians who stood up for putting the tube back in are taking heat from strict Constitutionalists. The ones who want to keep it out are looking like uncaring pro death zealots. The right to lifers out protesting look like a bunch of freaks, the Schindlers are losing their daughter and Michael Schiavo looks like an evil scumbag.
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I along with every other republican I know in this area (Where we\'ve had the story for 8 years) agrees that what Delay has done is emberassing. The press conferences the weekend before last when they did all that legislative bull crap were so ridiculous. Politicians are just giving the proverbial screw you to every single doctor who has treated her. Delay has seen a video tape where her eyes move. Holy shit, she must want to live. I mean, she after all goes "wuh wuh girple girple." Why wouldn\'t she want to live?
Thank the lord for republicans!!! Oh wait, I\'m a republican. I guess the difference is that my head doesn\'t have shit on it from being up my own ass.
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^
yup... I think we should start a new "republican" party. "The common sense Republicans". Where we don\'t fanatically follow the teachings of invisible men who have been dead for 2000 years.
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^ ^ ^ LOL! :D
BTW, It\'s rather strange to argue that DeLay\'s case with his father and the Terri Schiavo case are "totally different." Both were brain damaged vegetables, and both were kept alive by medical assistance. What difference does it make what machines or tubes were used to provide assistance? It\'s completely stupid to pretend these cases are so different.
Also, I am not arguing FOR euthanasia, even though I think what DeLay did for his father was right. I\'m arguing AGAINST politicians sticking their noses into personal family matters for political gain. These situations are best kept between the caregivers, doctors, family, and ultimately the judges. The legislative and executive branches have NO BUSINESS getting involved.
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Originally posted by CHIZZY
^
yup... I think we should start a new "republican" party. "The common sense Republicans". Where we don\'t fanatically follow the teachings of invisible men who have been dead for 2000 years.
I just want to say that I too would like to see a return of that old Republican party. The one I grew up with. You knew where you stood with them, even if you hated their guts.
They might have been cold-hearted anti-environment, anti-labor, anti-human rights, anti-public health, pro-corporate, money grubbing BASTARDS, but at least they made policy decisions based on rational considerations. Not "what would jesus do" or "we must crusade to smite the heathen muslims..." :rolleyes:
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The same could be said about the Democratic Party. You all have been taken over by the Michael Moore/Move On/Dean folks. Yeeee Ahhhh!!!! :rolleyes:
As for Delay - it is a totally different situation as his vital organs were failing and even if it wasn\'t as you claim, his fathers wishes were never in doubt. Even though I am not religious - who am I say they are wrong about their faith and convictions? Talk about intolerance...
As for the Republican Party giving into the the far religious right - Funny how they are taking heat for not doing enough for Terri.
Crusade to smite heathen Muslims? What politician said that? Sometimes I really wish Kalifornia would fall into the sea
I also have a sneaking suspicion Vid and Chizzy are RINO\'s. ;)
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THey aren\'t getting heat by many. They are getting heat from the loud few. An overwhelming majority of people agree on all political sides agree that she should have her tube removed.
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Originally posted by Coredweller
They might have been cold-hearted anti-environment, anti-labor, anti-human rights, anti-public health, pro-corporate, money grubbing BASTARDS, but at least they made policy decisions based on rational considerations. Not "what would jesus do" or "we must crusade to smite the heathen muslims..." :rolleyes:
Boy, that playbook never gets updated, eh?
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Originally posted by videoholic
THey aren\'t getting heat by many. They are getting heat from the loud few. An overwhelming majority of people agree on all political sides agree that she should have her tube removed.
But here is what you continue to fail to see - this isn\'t a political issue. For all the discussion about politics motivating certain individuals you would think it is... Could it possibly be someone\'s faith, belief or conviction that life is sacred be the motivation? At first I didn\'t particularly like the fact that Congress did what it did, but considering how the Judiciary Branch thinks it is the branch of government that doesn\'t have to answer to anyone for whatever it does - I am able to appreciate their attempt even if symbolic. No politician overstepped their bounds and went outside the law on this issue - not a one.
You can claim she is brain dead all you want, but the fact is you don\'t know and even the experts that say she is in a PVS can\'t say with a hundred percent confidence that she is. The fact is science does not fully understand the complexities of the human brain.
I also find it ironic that someone can make light of this woman\'s plight and then emotionally sympothize when someone\'s pet dies or should I say stoically "put down". :rolleyes:
Maybe Ace was on to something when he made the statement comparing this to a family pet getting put down earlier in this thread...
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She isn\'t brain dead. She has NO cerebral cortex. The only thing she has is the end of her spinal chord which controls all of her involuntary functions. That is why she is able to stay alive, but not know it.
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Originally posted by videoholic
She isn\'t brain dead. She has NO cerebral cortex. The only thing she has is the end of her spinal chord which controls all of her involuntary functions. That is why she is able to stay alive, but not know it.
This has become a circular debate on both sides.
Debating this further from my perspective is pointless. There is nothing to be done but to wait until she is dead. Until that time the thread will stay open and after that it will be closed.
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Originally posted by Ace
Boy, that playbook never gets updated, eh?
Don\'t blame me if the GOP has a PR problem. I haven\'t seen any effort on the part of Republican leadership to change our perception of them. They make up labels like "compassionate conservatism" but their actions contradict the label.
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Originally posted by videoholic
BS, you got some nips showing? Or is that just wishful thining....
Wishful thinking, my friend.
Why isn\'t this lady dead yet? How long does it take to starve?
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About a week and half, just get it over with, like I said line me if with some syringes and a heavy dose of kill me juice if I end up like that.
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Originally posted by mjps21983
About a week and half, just get it over with, like I said line me if with some syringes and a heavy dose of kill me juice if I end up like that.
At least we have written proof. Do we have that in this case?
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No, we just have a waste of space.
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Lol, at Boz, no we don\'t have exact proof thats what the experts are saying and the last time I checked none of us are experts on this brain damage issue. But from what I\'ve heard its about 10 days before someone dies of dehydration.
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Yeah we are not brain experts, but the people who ARE experts say her brain is kaput, and she isn\'t going to recover. Who do you trust? Only other nonexperts who tell you something you want to hear? :D
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Anyone\'s newspapers got covers that are a little assholish??? The cover of the newspaper i have has a calender counting down the days until she dies by x\'ing out the days that have gone by. Seems like theyre making a mockery of this. Just seemed a little sick.
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Did anyone catch South Park last night?
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Hehe
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Originally posted by Black Samurai
Did anyone catch South Park last night?
Damn missed it... isn\'t this the last season?
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You got your wish BS.
Terri Shaivo Dies
Thursday, March 31, 2005
Terri Schiavo (search) died Thursday morning around 10 a.m. EST after her parents had plead with her husband Michael Schiavo to allow them to be at their brain-damaged daughter\'s bedside in her final hours, a spokesman for the family said.
Schiavo died heading into her 14th day without food and water amid what could be the final legal setback for her parents after the U.S. Supreme Court refused again to hear their plea to reinsert Schiavo\'s feeding tube.
Wednesday night\'s decision came hours after a federal appeals court declined to hold another hearing on the issue. It was the sixth time since 2000 that the Supreme Court declined to intervene in the case. Justices did not explain their decision and there was no indication how they voted.
It was also the second time in a week that the high court refused to hear the parents\' appeal.
The latest emergency request argued that the federal courts didn\'t consider whether there was enough "clear and convincing" evidence that Schiavo would have chosen to die in her current condition. Doctors say she has been in a persistent vegetative state for 15 years.
A court ruling had allowed her husband and legal guardian, Michael Schiavo (search), to order the tube that has kept her alive removed.
Early Thursday, Terri Schiavo\'s brother said the nearly two weeks without food or water had taken a toll on his sister.
"It\'s not a pretty sight, I can tell you that," Bobby Schindler said.
The Rev. Frank Pavone, who accompanied him during the early morning visit, said Schiavo\'s face was shrunken and her eyes were oscillating from side to side.
Terri Schiavo\'s father had said Wednesday that that while his daughter was weak, her organs were functioning and she was responsive. "I\'m asking that nobody throw in the towel as long as she\'s fighting, to keep fighting with her," Bob Schindler said.
Appearing with the woman\'s family earlier on Wednesday, the Rev. Jesse Jackson (search) said as long as it was possible to restore food and water, Schiavo\'s loved ones should not give up hope.
"We ask God to sustain this family as they go through this gut-wrenching ordeal," Jackson said, surrounded by Schiavo\'s parents, Bob and Mary Schindler (search), and her brother and sister. "We know that the innocent do suffer and that you need not be guilty to be crucified."
Jackson was with the Schindler family for a second day on Wednesday. The onetime Democratic presidential contender broke with many fellow liberals in pressing for the reinsertion of Schiavo\'s feeding tube.
Less than a day after the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (search) allowed the Schindlers to file the latest of several emergency appeals to reverse the feeding tube decision, the court again rejected the possibility of a hearing.
"While the members of her family and the members of Congress have acted in a way that is both fervent and sincere, the time has come for dispassionate discharge of duty," Judge Stanley F. Birch Jr. wrote for the majority.
For the appeal to be granted, the parents\' request would have needed the support of seven of the court\'s 12 judges. Judge William H. Pryor Jr. was recovering from surgery and did not participate, and Judges Charles R. Wilson and Gerald Bard Tjoflat dissented.
Birch also addressed the "activist judges" label, which has been tossed at all the jurists involved in the case, using the term\'s definition in his criticism of President Bush and Congress.
"Despite sincere and altruistic motivations, the legislative and executive branches of our government have acted in a manner demonstrably at odds with our Founding Fathers\' blueprint for the governance of a free people — our Constitution," he wrote.
Since Schiavo\'s feeding tube was removed on March 18, mostly Republican lawmakers and the president have taken extraordinary and unprecedented steps to nullify prior court decisions. State and federal court rulings have consistently sided with Michael Schiavo, who has successfully argued that his wife did not want to be kept alive artificially.
Birch scolded the "legislative and executive branches of our government" for muddying the separation of powers.
FOX News\' Senior Judicial Analyst Judge Andrew Napolitano said Wednesday\'s rejection spelled the end of the road for their legal battle.
"The [Schindlers\'] grounds were the same grounds as last week — their view that last week\'s congressional legislation required a federal judge to look at the same evidence the state judge looked at," he said. "This is the second time the appeals court said they wouldn\'t do it; the court decided there was nothing wrong with the state courts\' rulings."
Napolitano added that while it was unfortunate that the court\'s decision was written in cold legalese, he could detect some amount of exasperation among the judges.
"The court is really saying to Congress, \'Don\'t tell the courts what to do,\' and to the Schindlers, \'You\'ve been here twice now, don\'t come back,\'" he said.
It was not clear what, if any, effect reinserting the tube would have on Schiavo.
Dr. Alexander Mauskop, a neurologist and director of the New York Headache Center, said the chances are "close to zero" that Schiavo will survive, even if the tube is reattached.
Mauskop said that Schiavo\'s kidneys have probably failed, a condition that could not be reversed even if water supply to the body was resumed. And despite the Schindlers\' claims, Mauskop said, Schiavo could not be conscious with such a severely eroded cerebral cortex.
"She\'s not suffering at all," he told FOX News, adding, "Maybe it would not be bad to let the parents have their child, even if it\'s just the body ... maybe they should have the right to come and watch her and think she\'s alive."
Schindler family spokesman Randall Terry (search ) angrily dismissed that assessment, calling Mauskop "Dr. Frankenstein."
"We have a moral obligation to continue to fight, even if it\'s all hope against hope," he told FOX News.
Differences of Opinion Turn Ugly
As Schiavo\'s life continues to slip away, some who believe she should be kept alive have resorted to extreme measures.
Florida Circuit Court Judge George W. Greer (search), who has consistently ruled in Michael Schiavo\'s favor, has found himself the target of a "sea of death threats," according to a report in the Washington Times.
Greer has received hate mail and threatening phone calls and has been personally harassed by angry protesters at his home and office. The judge is being guarded by sheriff\'s deputies, the Times said.
Florida lawmakers who believe the courts have proved Schiavo did not want to be kept alive while in a persistent vegetative state have also been harassed and threatened.
State Sen. Gary Siplin, D-Orlando, told "FOX & Friends" that in a legislative session last Thursday, "some of the female senators were crying on the floor, saying that they had been threatened with their lives because of this issue."
And the divide between Michael Schiavo\'s camp and the Schindlers\' has turned even more venomous, with some accusing Schiavo of spousal abuse and blaming him for his wife\'s condition.
Terri Schiavo suffered catastrophic brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped for several minutes because of a potassium imbalance, which is commonly associated with bulimia. Schiavo was overweight as a teen and lost a dramatic amount of weight when she entered adulthood. Her husband maintains she had an eating disorder.
But charges from Terri\'s former nurse that she was abused by her husband have inflamed those who don\'t believe she is actually in a vegetative state. The nurse alleges that Michael Schiavo aggravated his wife\'s condition shortly after she was initially hospitalized because he wanted to be free of her — invoking parallels to Scott Peterson, the California man convicted of murdering his pregnant wife, Laci.
Michael Schiavo\'s lawyer said Monday that an autopsy was planned to show the extent of his wife\'s brain damage.
Doctors have said Schiavo, 41, would probably die within two weeks after the tube was removed.
Protesters have not left the grounds of the Pinellas Park, Fla., hospice where Terri Schiavo lies. But as her death approaches, sheriffs are locking down the perimeter following threats to the building, including one from a person who said he would bomb the hospice if Schiavo died.
Sheriffs are also searching cars that approach the hospice, and are checking the grounds for suspicious packages.
FOX News\' Jane Roh and The Associated Press contributed to this report
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,152032,00.html
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finally this crap is over with
why the media latched onto this and ran it non-stop 24/7 for the past few weeks is beyond me.
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Wrongful Death Law Suit NEXT!!!!
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It is an issue Jbean - one that will provoke discussion and maybe examine new laws. This case was the catalyst for the entire issue over the right to die, living wills, etc. and the laws covering the issue.
This case was different than most because of the estranged husband the family. The question is - who has more rights given the circumstances? I would agree if this were a case that the husband had not started a new life with another woman and had been in that relationship for 10 years, while only being married to Terri when she wasn\'t in a coma for only 6 years, that the spouse should have the right. Some leftists on here have constantly stated things are black and white and there is a grey area to most issues - well they are right regarding our legal system - there are always circumstances that don\'t quite fit in with the current law that is on the books.
In any event it is time to move on. This thread will be closed by the end of the day.
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LAST! :D
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I have one thing Giga he tried to get this feeding tube removed before this like seven years ago. So its not like he up and just said damn I\'m getting tired of this women, kill her. Well at least thats how some people would like to play it out. If your born like this its different sure keep her alive or whatever parents decision.
If she\'s married and its been almost fucking half of her life like this put her down, my only problem is they had to starve her to death they couldn\'t put her down in a more humane way, at least we can do this with our animals.
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You missed the point. Even so he was still in a relationship with this other woman for 3 years - conflict of interest - and secondly she had no living will. The current law is in step regarding the sanctity of marriage and we could argue about the sanctity of this marriage, but that is an argument I really don\'t feel like going into.
The point is this: make a living will and make your intentions clear.
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(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.moviemaze.de%2Fcelebs%2F0033%2Fmain.jpg&hash=41a205599c78616a93383637616821af358a6c90)
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Just a little sidenote addressing Giga\'s complaints about so-called "activist" judges: Judge Stanley Birch of the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, who is a very conservative judge appointed by George Bush the elder, wrote a scathing criticism of "Terri\'s Law" as a concurrence when his court denied the parents\' final appeal.
Thank god the US Constitution is still important to men of integrity in the judiciary.
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/schiavo/33005ca11rhrng2.pdf
A popular epithet directed by some members of society, including some members of Congress, toward the judiciary involves the denunciation of "activist judges." Generally, the definition of an "activist judge" is one who decides the outcome of a controversy before him according to personal conviction, even one sincerely held, as opposed to the dictates of the law as constrained by legal precedent and, ultimately, our Constitution. In resolving the Schiavo controversy it is my judgment that, despite sincere and altruistic motivation, the legislative and executive branches of our government have acted in a manner demonstrably at odds with our Founding Fathers\' blueprint for the governance of a free people - our Constitution. Since I have sworn, as have they, to uphold and defend that Covenant, I must respectfully concur in the denial of the request for rehearing en banc.
I conclude that ["Terri\'s Law"] is unconstitutional and, therefore, this court and the district court are without jurisdiction in this case under that special Act and should refuse to exercise any jurisdiction that we may otherwise have in this case. (Emphasis added.)
...
The separation of powers implicit in our constitutional design was created "to assure, as nearly as possible, that each branch of government would confine itself to its assigned responsibility." But when the fervor of political passions moves the Executive and the Legislative branches to act in ways inimical to basic constitutional principles, it is the duty of the judiciary to intervene. If sacrifices to the independence of the judiciary are permitted today, precedent is established for the constitutional transgressions of tomorrow. (Emphasis in original.)
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I change my mind.
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And on that not the topic is closed.