PSX5Central
Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Ghettomath on April 25, 2005, 02:31:17 PM
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Today\'s New York Times features a picture on the front page depicting an evangelical Christian rally at Highview Baptist Church in Louisville, Kentucky. Projected onto two giant screens at the front of the church is the image of Bill Frist, Repulican party leader. At the bottom of the screens are the phone numbers of local lawmakers.
The article states:
"In a Sunday telecast organized by Christian conservation groups to denounce the Democrats as \'against people of faith\' for blocking judicial nominees, Senator Bill Frist of Tennesse stepped up his threats to change Senate rules to circumvent those blockade while simultaneously calling for \'more civility in political life.\'"
I have a problem with something we seemed to be forgetting in this country. Our first amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (AKA the separation of church and state)
Do believe Bill Frist and the "religious right" are in violation of this? Is voting based on religious morals in violation of this? Is the current morals-centered administration taking advantage of a trend in Americans? Are Democrats \'against people of faith\'?
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Originally posted by Ghettomath
Are Democrats \'against people of faith\'?
No, they are just confused individuals. Leftists suck!
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Originally posted by Ghettomath
Do believe Bill Frist and the "religious right" are in violation of this? Is voting based on religious morals in violation of this? Is the current morals-centered administration taking advantage of a trend in Americans?
Care to buy a clue? :rolleyes:
You are screaming that this country has become a theocracy when nothing could be further from the truth. People make decisions based on a lot of things and now you want to create some sort of "thought police" to make sure people aren\'t thinking about anything related to their faith or religion when making decisions?
Read your own post and it answers your own silly question.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (AKA the separation of church and state)
You see that up there in bold Ghetto? OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF.
What law has been made to establish a state religion? None.
Seems to me a few of you who are rabidly anti religious and post against it want to force "your" views on anyone who disagrees and has faith. I dunno, maybe people with faith scare you because you lack it. In any case you are just another example of the intolerant left.
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As someone who lives near Louisville, KY, let me say this.
If it happens here, it probably isn\'t worth the time it took to write a story up like this.
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idk. I got bored
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Giga lives in Alabama. I could never EVER put my finger on why he is the way he is, but now I know.
And I laugh and realize that everything that is the steryotype of the southern states is true.
Anyways. The religious right has pretty much a hold on every Christian/Republican balls. They do as they are told in the name of God. I think its hella wrong personally. But it\'s not illegal. It\'s just the ignorance of people that are willing to put the face of God on somebody like Bush who isn\'t even slightly a good Christian.
Christian+A person from Alabama, Kentucky, Texas, Tennesse etc = Hardcore brainwashed Republican
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An illegal immigrant working a wallmart who pretends to slightly informal on an internet message board=hardcore brainwashed Democrat.
Weeee.
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Originally posted by Jumpman
An illegal immigrant working a wallmart who pretends to slightly informal on an internet message board=hardcore brainwashed Democrat.
Weeee.
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I\'m not illegal stupid!
I\'m not "brainwashed" just very gullible.
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I just read what I said and wtf spelling and left out word mistakes. Time to bring in the A material.
You work at Wallmart.
still got it!
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Originally posted by Jumpman
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I just read what I said and wtf spelling and left out word mistakes. Time to bring in the A material.
You work at Wallmart.
still got it!
I noticed that, but I didn\'t feel like being a smart ass today. I feel good today for some reason.
I like you anyways.
Actually, I have a job interview at UPS!!!
They pay me for putting packages in a truck AND give me 3k a year for college!
Back on topic though:
Religion is being misused by those with power nowadays.
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
Giga lives in Alabama. I could never EVER put my finger on why he is the way he is, but now I know.
Really why is that? I haven\'t lived here my whole life - I have lived around the world. I was raised primarily in the NE - so there goes that whole argument.
Originally posted by SirMystiq
And I laugh and realize that everything that is the steryotype of the southern states is true.
Anyways. The religious right has pretty much a hold on every Christian/Republican balls. They do as they are told in the name of God. I think its hella wrong personally. But it\'s not illegal. It\'s just the ignorance of people that are willing to put the face of God on somebody like Bush who isn\'t even slightly a good Christian.
This proves you never read anything I post. I AM NOT RELIGIOUS. I DON\'T ATTEND CHURCH. How many times do I have to say it Mystiq until you get it. The founding fathers wanted freedom of religion NOT freedom from religion, which is what you want. I also find this amusing since your house is decorated with a picture of Jesus and other religious artifacts.
Who does what in the name of God? Where do you get this horse shit? You are mixing up Islamic Fundamentalism with Christians here in the US.
Where do you get all this "face of God on Bush" shit? I don\'t know anyone who thinks like this. For you to judge who is a good Christian and who is not is laughable.
More ramblings from the insane left...
Originally posted by SirMystiq
Christian+A person from Alabama, Kentucky, Texas, Tennesse etc = Hardcore brainwashed Republican
Mexican+A liberal in Texas, Arizona, California and NM = illegal alien.
Makes about as much sense doesn\'t it Mystiq?
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dont forget he works at walmart!
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
I like you anyways.
Actually, I have a job interview at UPS!!!
They pay me for putting packages in a truck AND give me 3k a year for college!
B]
Could you please not post in this forum anymore? This is the third thread of mine you have hijacked.
Giga and I might not agree on much, but I\'m with him on the fact that you bring nothing but the inane to these threads.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Really why is that? I haven\'t lived here my whole life - I have lived around the world. I was raised primarily in the NE - so there goes that whole argument.
Yeah, that\'s pretty much it for that argument. But why move to Alabama?
Originally posted by GigaShadow
This proves you never read anything I post. I AM NOT RELIGIOUS. I DON\'T ATTEND CHURCH. How many times do I have to say it Mystiq until you get it. The founding fathers wanted freedom of religion NOT freedom from religion, which is what you want. I also find this amusing since your house is decorated with a picture of Jesus and other religious artifacts.
Who does what in the name of God? Where do you get this horse shit? You are mixing up Islamic Fundamentalism with Christians here in the US.
Where do you get all this "face of God on Bush" shit? I don\'t know anyone who thinks like this. For you to judge who is a good Christian and who is not is laughable.
Don\'t hog the Republican glory here Giga. I wasn\'t talking about you I was talking in general and what goes on AROUND you. Hard to think about that huh?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/30/wbush30.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/30/ixworld.html
Conservative Christian leaders who played a key role in securing President George W Bush\'s re-election have given the White House an ultimatum over outlawing same-sex marriages.
In an indication of tension among Mr Bush\'s backers, a new coalition of powerful Christian groups issued their warning last week in a letter to Karl Rove, the President\'s chief adviser.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/04/24/justice.sunday/index.html
Conservative Christian leaders used a nationally televised rally Sunday night to urge an end to Democratic filibusters against several of President Bush\'s nominees for federal judgeships.
More ramblings from the insane left...
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/07/specter.judiciary/index.html
The comments from James Dobson, founder of the nonprofit Christian organization Focus on the Family, came four days after the moderate Republican from Pennsylvania told reporters that any Supreme Court nominee intent on overturning Roe v. Wade probably would not win Senate approval.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/02/18/bush.faith/index.html
"I welcome faith to help solve the nation\'s deepest problems," President Bush told a convention of religious broadcasters last week.
You have got to be lying about you not knowing how many Republicans only drive is that they see Bush as a God picked president. Remember the flyers and the false accusations that Kerry would "Burn Bibles" and promote homosexuality.
The Christian right IS A STRONG force that has pretty much kept Bush where he is.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4141485
Morning Edition, November 3, 2004 · The 2004 election produced more than a few surprises. Exit polls revealed that moral values trumped Iraq and the economy as a top voter concern. And for the first time, Hispanic voters cast their ballots evenly between the Democratic and Republican candidates. Hear NPR\'s Cokie Roberts and NPR\'s Renee Montagne.
Churches across America screamed for their flock to support Bush and denying that it happened would just be plain ignorant.
Let\'s suppose that Bush doesn\'t come out and tell America that he is going to do everything based on Christian ideals. Wouldn\'t that still be mixing the power he has over this country with his own personal religion? Wouldn\'t that breach the separation from Church and State if a president openly acts based on his religious beliefs?
The majority of the Republicans support such ideals and agree with Bush on basically any issue. Wouldn\'t that mean that if they are all for Christian ideals, the government has a chosen religion? Because the way I see it, if the majority of the government officials choose to act according to their faith and try their hardest to please their Christian followers, that is pretty much the government saying "here, vote for us we\'re Christians like you!"
I was just kidding about the last line. C\'mon, even YOU know about the reputation those states have.
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Originally posted by Ghettomath
Could you please not post in this forum anymore? This is the third thread of mine you have hijacked.
Giga and I might not agree on much, but I\'m with him on the fact that you bring nothing but the inane to these threads.
...I\'m sorry...?
I have no idea how you can "hijack" a thread by the way...
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You are forgetting one thing Mystiq - although we have freedom of religion and the seperation of Church and State - this country was founded by Christians. It is impossible to ignore that and its influence on our society.
I never would want to live under a theocracy, but at the same time I don\'t want to live in a society where religion is constantly attacked like it has been recently - ie. the Pledge, the microscopic cross on the LA City Seal, etc.
As for Christian lobbyists - they are just like every other lobby group in DC - all of them try to influence elected officials to vote according to their agenda.
The President is an individual and just because he is President does not mean he can\'t make decisions that are grounded in his faith. Bush is not a religious extremist, but he grounds his morality in Christian teachings. This is nothing new as Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, JFK and every President before them has done so. If a President were to make a decision based on spreading Christianity to other countries, creating laws that followed the strict teachings of the bible - you might have a point. This will never happen for three reasons - the other two branches of our government and the Constitution.
A little faith never hurt anyone and this country will never adopt an official religion so I fail to see how Bush using his faith to guide his decisions as some great violation of the separation of Church and State. Atheists need to learn how to tolerate those who have faith and the same can be said about Christian Fundamentalists who condemn all who don\'t believe.
Finally, I believe in tradition and the word God on our currency, in the Pledge, in Inaugurations, the observance of Christmas, or the use of crosses or other religious symbols doesn\'t offend me. This country was built by men of faith and men who had no faith. During the time of our country\'s growth these men didn\'t attack each other over their beliefs and didn\'t want to wipe away the traditions of our country.
Oh and I came to Alabama because of my job.
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Don\'t lie Giga you heard the song and couldn\'t resist.
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What "Sweet Home Alabama"?
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GigaShadow, no.
The country was indeed founded by majority-Christians, but it was not build to be Christian. It was built to adapt to whatever the majority of voters wanted as long as that did not infringe on individual right.
Because the country\'s voting populace has become less and less concerned with religion, it is only natural that Religion be phased out of public-controlled areas of government.
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Why the hell do people get so pussyhurt over something so trivial as \'God\' in the pledge, emblems, what Giga mentioned, etc. ?
Let me tell you, America is far better off than many countries in regards to enforced religions and theocracies... Just man up and grow a pair, there are so many bigger issues at hand.
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If you think what the government is doing about religion is unimportant, you must also think the majority of what they do is unimportant, right?
The reason all the religious stuffs been going down is because the Left has slowly realized over the last 50 years that a large part of America is perhaps unfairly based on religion. The left cannot attack more abstract concepts of religion/state without marginalizing itself so they attack straight foward images of religion/state.
It\'s a pointless argument from both sides, but atleast the left are logical.
What I hear you guys saying is:
Who cares? its not a big deal!
Which is basically saying:
Hey, i don\'t care. Why do those liberal pussies care?
Which is NOT a very good argument.
Edit:
The other argument you are playing is
"America was founded by Christians"
America was also founded by slave owners who believed in white supremecy. So?
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How is it unfair that a small, and yes, small fraction of America is based on religion? What the hell difference does it make? So you say \'God\' in the pledge, so you see a cross on a city emblem?
Why shit a brick over it?!
Don\'t get me wrong, I\'m neither conservative nor liberal, I like to think of myself as a moderate. Its just people really need to realize whether something is of grand significance or not... And right now the entire separation of Church and state is such a minute problem that it makes me just roll my eyes whenever somebody has a problem with it.
Take a flight to any Middle Eastern country and see what they have to deal with. You\'ll get your dick cut off for preaching separation of church and state... however unless you\'re a liberal, you probably lost it a long time ago anyways.
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Religion and law-making largely go hand in hand. Conformity to preserve society is a large part of religion.
I\'m sorry, I just figured I\'d summarize my point in 2 sentences instead of 200.
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I don\'t think much of politics is really based on signifigant issue. The biggest issue politicans deal with today is upholding a realm of political stability.
And no, symbols don\'t matter to you. But they matter to some people, and some of those people were voted into the position they are in.
Um, in America yes.
I hope you don\'t mean universally, because history proves that wrong.
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ok, so you\'re going to tell me a cross that was put on a flag over a century ago and the word god in the pledge of allegiance which was written more than a century ago should be taken out now after all this time???
To me thats stupid. If something is there its there, fuck it its not that important go give the bum on the street 50 bucks to swap out his clothes if you want to something beneficial to society other than sit on these forums and bitch about how bad religion is sucking up politics. Name the last President of the US that was an atheist? Do that for me in the last 50 years and then I\'ll be impressed.
You can choose what you want to watch listen to and hear, if you don\'t want to say god in the pledge of allegiance no fucking body is going to make you.
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...I heard they\'re thinking of modifying the Lincoln Memorial because of the writing upon it has has religious references...:stick: I get all giddy just waiting to see what they\'ll think of next. :daddy:
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I don\'t see how that \'Who\'s yer daddy\' smiley fits in context of your post...
However, I do agree that whoever wants to change that needs to die.
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Originally posted by SwifDi
I don\'t see how that \'Who\'s yer daddy\' smiley fits in context of your post...
However, I do agree that whoever wants to change that needs to die.
People like the ACLU, Ghetto, Mystiq and DH. They are so intolerant and afraid. Sorry, but Christianity in this country doesn\'t hurt anyone and I will say it again. Freedom of Religion is NOT freedom from religion. If you want that travel back in time to the Soviet Union under Stalin.
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1. The USSR Did not have freedom of religion, it was forced atheism.
2. Historical monuments do not need to be changed if they mention god, as they serve no real purpose in todays society. But the pledge is said every day at my PUBLIC high school.
3. The Pledge was changed to include the word god, so all you 1800\'s US fans should be with me on this one.
I really don\'t care what they do with religion in the government Giga, but if I was forced to choose i\'d say take God out of the pledge and change the legal system to be more fair towards people with minority beliefs. But that\'s just me, and I can\'t vote. (And I probley wouldn\'t vote anyway).
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
1. The USSR Did not have freedom of religion, it was forced atheism.
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Which is what some want here.
Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
2. Historical monuments do not need to be changed if they mention god, as they serve no real purpose in todays society. But the pledge is said every day at my PUBLIC high school.
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There is nothing wrong with saying the pledge every day in a public school. I said it daily along with millions of other kids.
Historical monuments serve no real purpose??? Didn\'t you ever learn that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it? History is very important for so many reasons and monuments are a daily reminder of the sacrifices made, the tragedies, the triumphs and the hero\'s of mankind.
Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
3. The Pledge was changed to include the word god, so all you 1800\'s US fans should be with me on this one.
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It was changed back in the 1950\'s under Eisenhower during the Cold War. Since most in this country have known no other pledge, especially you - I don\'t see the harm in keeping it there. Next there will be a call to remove the Bible from Presidential inaugurations.
Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
I really don\'t care what they do with religion in the government Giga, but if I was forced to choose i\'d say take God out of the pledge and change the legal system to be more fair towards people with minority beliefs. But that\'s just me, and I can\'t vote. (And I probley wouldn\'t vote anyway).
How the hell is the legal system unfair towards people with "minority beliefs"? Come on DH explain this one, I really would like to hear how you perceive that the legal system discriminates towards non Christians.
What warped view of this country you have if you believe such nonsense. It really makes me wonder where you learned ideas like this.
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Every logical person must/has/should admit that some of our laws are based on religious values.
And why the fuck should my future children have to pledge to "god" if they want to also pledge to America? That is completley unfair and it is on the brink of blatant brain washing.
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
Every logical person must/has/should admit that some of our laws are based on religious values.
And why the fuck should my future children have to pledge to "god" if they want to also pledge to America? That is completley unfair and it is on the brink of blatant brain washing.
Of course laws are based on some religious values - thou shalt not kill... gee that is kind of self explantory isn\'t it? More common sense than religious.
Contrary to your perception - most of our laws are based on English Common Law, which itself is based on early Roman Law. You still haven\'t even come close to proving your claim that our legal system discriminates toward those who are not Christian.
Brainwashing? How so? I said "under God\' for years as did my wife, yet we are not religious.
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UNDER GOD UNDER GOD UNDER GOD
PRAISE JESUS HAIL THE LORD
I can say that shit cuz this is a free country... all the agnostic and atheists can shove it if they don\'t like it. I\'m not over here calling them out for not believing in something. No one had a problem with \'under god\' for the longest time, then the liberals came and f\'ed everything up. Put up or get out.
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
And why the fuck should my future children have to pledge to "god" if they want to also pledge to America?
The entire pledge is to America... it\'s just a brief statement, almost like a sidenote when you say it. "one nation, under god,..."
Is it too hard to just say it and not mean it?
This is why I can\'t stand so many liberals... They trample upon any traditional values the U.S. still clings to, and is a prime reason America has absolutely no culture whatsoever.
Cry a river, and a drown yourself in it.
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In the pledge, they associated the word "god" with strong nationalistic words that are really not related to god at all.
I can say that shit cuz this is a free country... all the agnostic and atheists can shove it if they don\'t like it. I\'m not over here calling them out for not believing in something. No one had a problem with \'under god\' for the longest time, then the liberals came and f\'ed everything up. Put up or get out.
You\'re an idiot.
And swifdi, obviously, no. The pledge is not the biggest problem in the world. But it\'s not like im campaigning against it will millions of dollars.
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Originally posted by SwifDi
The entire pledge is to America... it\'s just a brief statement, almost like a sidenote when you say it. "one nation, under god,..."
Is it too hard to just say it and not mean it?
I am sure he thinks he is being "forced" to say it. His civil rights have been violated and psychological harm has come to him... :rolleyes:
If this country is so against religion as you claim DH, Kerry should have won in a landslide shouldn\'t he?
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
In the pledge, they associated the word "god" with strong nationalistic words that are really not related to god at all.
So fucking what?!? If you aren\'t proud of your country just say so. You seem to think everything we do is wrong - you even advocate anarchy! Please go back to make believe land or wherever you came from.
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I don\'t say it, and I am not forced to say it. But I have been in younger grades, which is actually worse since kids are more impressionable the younger they are.
Giga, I didn\'t say they were anti-religion. If the public doesn\'t want to change the pledge, it won\'t happen. That is democracy. So if shit is happening that you don\'t like, I guess you can vote.
lol.
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I\'m not proud of my country, but that is completley irrelevant to the quote.
The quote said:
"Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
In the pledge, they associated the word "god" with strong nationalistic words that are really not related to god at all."
Which means:
God has nothing to do with the rest of the sentiments in the pledge. It is a silly mis-use of the idea of god.
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You\'re 16... what has America done to disappoint you?
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There are things about it that I would change, but I didn\'t say I was disappointed.
I said I wasn\'t proud.
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Then leave.
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Ahahhaa.
You have to be a nationalist to live here?
When that day comes, ill be out of here. But untill then, I think i\'ll enjoy the benifets of living here.
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No seriously - leave. Go live somewhere else and see how great it is, then come back and tell us how much you miss it here.
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....
Are you really that fucking stupid?
Do you not understand the difference between pride and enjoyment?
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:laughing:
Please tell us why you aren\'t proud of this country. I really enjoy hearing things like our legal system discriminates against non Christians and things of that nature. As Swifdi said, in your 16 years of existence what has made you so bitter?
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I told you.
I\'m just not into Nationalism. Nationalism is for people who enjoy glory, and as you said it, pride. Facists love nationalism, You\'d have loved it in Fiume.
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Nationalism is what defines countries and gives them an identity. Also Nationalism is not confined to Facism - many countries have great pride in their individual indentity. Learn more and you will understand.
Your Fiume quip is amusing considering it is and was irrelevant to the discussion.
You still haven\'t answered my question as to our legal system discriminating against non Christians.
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Move to Australia and convert all your American dollars into wood chips cause all our currency says "In God We Trust"...
/mm
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It\'s not irrelevant Giga.
You just remind me of facists from italy.
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
It\'s not irrelevant Giga.
You just remind me of facists from italy.
Really? Have you met one? It still has nothing to do with the separation of Church and State.
Answer my question about your lunatic assertion that non Christians are discriminated against in this country. If you don\'t answer I will take it you have no clue what you are talking about.
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
Every logical person must/has/should admit that some of our laws are based on religious values.
And why the fuck should my future children have to pledge to "god" if they want to also pledge to America? That is completley unfair and it is on the brink of blatant brain washing.
Then have them pledge to america and not god, or if they want they can pledge to allah or budda or the devil, you can do what you want you know?
However there are some consequences to peoples actions.
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Answer my question about your lunatic assertion that non Christians are discriminated against in this country. If you don\'t answer I will take it you have no clue what you are talking about.
People who don\'t believe in laws that exist don\'t have a choice. The majority believes in the classic Religious-Moral-Code that has existed throughout western history. Some people do not believe in the same Moral Code as the majority, and that number of people is growing as religious involvement declines.
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Thats not discrimination
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I believe it was Giga who used that word.
But anyways, in some cases those laws are "needed". In other cases, they can be erased and things would be fine.
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
People who don\'t believe in laws that exist don\'t have a choice. The majority believes in the classic Religious-Moral-Code that has existed throughout western history. Some people do not believe in the same Moral Code as the majority, and that number of people is growing as religious involvement declines.
Read again DH - English Common Law. That has nothing to do with religion.
As for this "Moral Code" you speak of. If you live in this country you follow its law - not the law in Saudi Arabia, not the law in Canada, not the law in China - the law HERE. It has nothing to do with morals. You have no clue what you are talking about.
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Are you saying laws arn\'t based on the general morals of the voting population?
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
I believe it was Giga who used that word.
But anyways, in some cases those laws are "needed". In other cases, they can be erased and things would be fine.
Is this not what you said?
change the legal system to be more fair towards people with minority beliefs.
more fair = you believe someone is being discriminated against.
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Well yes. They ARE being discriminated against, but it is not direct. It is not an organized attack on the minority, which is why I didn\'t feel the word fit the situation.
It is simply a result of majority rule, which is the case in any democracy. There are two ways to avoid minority oppression,
1. is to educate and convince the population that what your saying is right.
2. is to not be in democracy.
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
Are you saying laws arn\'t based on the general morals of the voting population?
morals - Definition: [n] motivation based on ideas of right and wrong.
I don\'t see religion mentioned there. Being religious is not a prerequisite to know what is right and what is wrong.
Origin of Common Law:
In 1154, Henry II became the first Plantagenet king. Among many achievements, Henry institutionalized common law by creating a unified system of law "common" to the country through incorporating and elevating local custom to the national, ending local control and peculiarities, eliminating arbitrary remedies, and reinstating a jury system of citizens sworn on oath to investigate reliably criminal accusations and civil claims. The jury reached its verdict through evaluating common local knowledge, not necessarily through the presentation of evidence, a distinguishing factor from today\'s civil and criminal court systems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law
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Okay, and most modern morals stem from early religion.
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
Well yes. They ARE being discriminated against, but it is not direct. It is not an organized attack on the minority, which is why I didn\'t feel the word fit the situation.
It is simply a result of majority rule, which is the case in any democracy. There are two ways to avoid minority oppression,
1. is to educate and convince the population that what your saying is right.
2. is to not be in democracy.
How!?!?!?!?! Show me proof that religious minorities are being discriminated against. Don\'t give me your pseudo intellectual babble about brainwashing either. Show me law that discriminates against people for being non Christian. Show me!!!!
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It isn\'t neccicarly about Christianity.
It is general religion. Not specific. It covers most religions, but it does not recognize the fact that not all American citizens have a universal system of morals.
Specifics?
Hmmm..
How about western cultures Breast fetish, a sexist idea that forces a women to cover her breats while males walk around shirtless constantly?
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
How about western cultures Breast fetish, a sexist idea that forces a women to cover her breats while males walk around shirtless constantly?
You really have nowhere to go do you?
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No...he pretty much dug himself a hole.
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Giga sunk his battleship!
kaaaaaaaaplooooooooooow
Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
It isn\'t neccicarly about Christianity.
I give you E for Effort on that spelling call.
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Ok im just jumping on on this for a bit so if i missed anything dont get all flustered.
There is nothing wrong with saying the pledge every day in a public school. I said it daily along with millions of other kids.
Historical monuments serve no real purpose??? Didn\'t you ever learn that those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it? History is very important for so many reasons and monuments are a daily reminder of the sacrifices made, the tragedies, the triumphs and the hero\'s of mankind.
Giga, Giga, Giga. I don’t see why you dance around these comments. The problem he finds in the pledge and all of that is the fact that they mention god which may not have anything to do with their beliefs. Of course as a child you may not know what to believe but saying it in school is presumed to bias that development of beliefs. Of course I personally don’t think it does too much in terms of biasing. It is basically only annoying to those that are old enough to have established beliefs and don’t agree with it, not the children (for the most part).
And monuments do indeed serve a purpose historically but what great amount can be gained from a placard on the side of one? Yes you said the sacrifice and all that but Im sure you can learn the same things if not more from reading a book. Monuments are nice tributary objects but in terms of historical education, they don’t do as much as you might think.
morals - Definition: [n] motivation based on ideas of right and wrong.
I don\'t see religion mentioned there. Being religious is not a prerequisite to know what is right and what is wrong.
I don’t think that was the point. First of all he did not say morals alone. He stated “Religious Moral Code.” Anyway, almost every group of people has had some sort of cosmology and their views of right and wrong often come from that. It is not new that people don’t believe in god but a large majority of early people had some sort of religion/cosmology to explain things and whether you are religious or not, right and wrong on a basic level is the same if not partially influenced by that cosmology.
Read again DH - English Common Law. That has nothing to do with religion.
As for this "Moral Code" you speak of. If you live in this country you follow its law - not the law in Saudi Arabia, not the law in Canada, not the law in China - the law HERE. It has nothing to do with morals. You have no clue what you are talking about.
Forgive me for just jumping in, but I figured why not. The English Common Law may come from roman law which still probably ties into their own cosmology, not that it matters really. But on the topic of law, how does this not have anything to do with morals? Laws are established through our beliefs which stems from our morals which could be said to stem from this country’s establishment by Christians and thus god being mentioned in our government (not to mention things like swearing by the bible).
How!?!?!?!?! Show me proof that religious minorities are being discriminated against. Don\'t give me your pseudo intellectual babble about brainwashing either. Show me law that discriminates against people for being non Christian. Show me!!!!
On the whole discrimination thing, I don’t believe there is some large degree of it coming from the government itself but more from the people that support the small ties that our government does have with religion. I don’t see how its possible though for people to not agree with some laws because they think they are too religious. THAT is ridiculous.
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wtf Nicon did you copy and paste your post from Notepad or something?
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Nicon repeated what I said about English Common Law and then completely babbled about other stuff. Something about morals... a little better than the Breast Fetish DH stated, but garbage all the same.
Nicon - go to Gettysburg some time. Walk the battlefield - that will teach you more than any history book ever could.
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Im sure i didnt echo much if anything you said. Obviously, you dont know much about anthropology, or so it seems. That or our methods of communication are just different. Its not that hard to comprehend really.
Anyway, I dont know why you say walking the battlefield will tell me more than a book and perhaps theres some good reason as to why you think so, but honestly, I HIGHLY doubt it will tell me more than ANY book. Perhaps the experience is unique to what any book may offer, but anything else im sure a book does better.
Thanks anyway.
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wow...very well put nicon...*you know i gotta show some support for the brother\'s up in here* :fro: ;)...seriously tho i don\'t have a problem with the word god being pronounced here and there...i mean i understand how some (DH) can be somewhat offended by it, but to cause some type of uproar over it is a little extreme. i mean if they did take it out then what? i\'m pretty sure these politicians would find something else silly to argue about....honestly there are other important matters at hand...
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Honestly, people are just too touchy in the world. Simple as that. People put too much emphasis on words and not meaning. All the pledge is is a recognition of the country you live in. And please o PLEASE stop associating god to only christianty! It shows how little religous knowledge you all have. Jews, christians, muslims ALL BELIEVE IN THE SAME GOD! And for other religions, other than athiests but who cares about them, they all believe in a sort of god as well. All god is is a higher power. Allah=name of god. Gnesh(sp?)=name of god. Zues=Name of god. They are all gods and almsot everyone believes in one or another.
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I skipped the first two pages and read this page.
Religion can not and will not ever be seperated from anything. Culture and religion are molded into one another like skin is to flesh. Many laws came from old religious laws. A universal example is "Though Shall Not Kill". Tell me how that never found its way into secular laws. Tell me. And I\'ll give you a cookie.
I\'m not saying that all secular laws came from religious (moral) ones. I am saying that every culture in this world has its religious overtones....which can carry over into secular laws.
To say that modern laws today have no religious beginnings need to study a little further and should take up advanced Philosophy, Anthropology, Ancient Western/Eastern History. I recommend Anthropolgy if yer pressed for time and tuition fees. ;)
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Oh! And did you know that our modern calendar today was once based on the Nile River\'s three phases? Dija? Dija?
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Originally posted by Lord Nicon
Anyway, I dont know why you say walking the battlefield will tell me more than a book and perhaps theres some good reason as to why you think so, but honestly, I HIGHLY doubt it will tell me more than ANY book. Perhaps the experience is unique to what any book may offer, but anything else im sure a book does better.
Or Normandy - I have walked both and there is no comparison when it comes to just reading about something or actually visiting it as well.
I have been to Verdun as well - of course no one thinks about WWI that much, but after seeing that place and how the earth still bares the scars of that battle is amazing almost 100 years later. The bunkers, spent rusted casings which can still be found litter the ground, rusted barbed wire, and even remains can be found. I remember hearing about a group of boyscouts who brought a live landmine back on their tour bus and the bomb squad having to remove it!
Visiting historical landmarks and monuments are some of the best and most memorable forms of education one can receive as opposed to just reading about it in a book. Sitting in a classroom is no substitution for having the opportunity to do both.
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Really and what did you learn from your visits? That the battle was bad? What historical knowledge did you get from visiting the landmark that you can\'t get from a book?
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Or Normandy - I have walked both and there is no comparison when it comes to just reading about something or actually visiting it as well.
I have been to Verdun as well - of course no one thinks about WWI that much, but after seeing that place and how the earth still bares the scars of that battle is amazing almost 100 years later. The bunkers, spent rusted casings which can still be found litter the ground, rusted barbed wire, and even remains can be found. I remember hearing about a group of boyscouts who brought a live landmine back on their tour bus and the bomb squad having to remove it!
Visiting historical landmarks and monuments are some of the best and most memorable forms of education one can receive as opposed to just reading about it in a book. Sitting in a classroom is no substitution for having the opportunity to do both.
Oh I\'m sure books can\'t deliver the sites and smells of the old battle grounds.....but it can\'t always tell you what caused all that destruction and bloodshed to begin with. You see the end result. It\'s true that history buffs should go to the sites they\'ve read about. But you can\'t be just a tourist and know its history from just looking.
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I killed this thread. :)
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
I killed this thread. :)
Not really. In many cases you back up a lot of my statements.
Thanks :thumb:
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Originally posted by cloud345
Really and what did you learn from your visits? That the battle was bad? What historical knowledge did you get from visiting the landmark that you can\'t get from a book?
A greater understanding of the event. A book with pictures desensitizes you for the most part.
Take Pickett\'s charge for example. By actually seeing how large and open the field is where he charged Union troops you gain a greater appreciation for the men that participated in it.
Same goes for Normandy. Looking down on the beach from the old German bunkers you gain a much better picture of the courage of those men who stormed the beach.
Go visit Dachau and see the camp for yourself - that place will haunt you. Then you realize they just aren\'t far off places on the pages of books. I agree books should be read first, but to totally appreciate history such memorials and landmarks give one a greater understanding of the courage and/or tragedies that took place there. This whole argument is because certain people here believe they aren\'t relevant in today\'s society. Obviously these people haven\'t traveled much to make such ignorant observations.
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Giga, you misunderstand my comments.
Historical monuments should not be changed because they lack modern political relevance, not modern relevance all together. I agree that they have value, just not political value.
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Originally posted by Deadly Hamster
Giga, you misunderstand my comments.
misunderstand = Misunderstood
:)
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oh now we\'re getting snippy
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I Pledge Allegiance
To the Flag
Of the United States of America
And to the Republic
For Which it Stands
One Nation
Under Allah
Indivisible
With Liberty
And Justice
For All
Hmm... just wondering how that little modification would actually sound. Before you flame those who oppose the word "God," have your kids say that every single day in school. If you don\'t suffer some kind of pang in your heart, then I will shut up. But you shouldn\'t, after all, if the issue is irrelevant and Allah means the same thing as God.
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Allah=Submission to God, same person.
And i will flame people who oppoese the word god because those people are too touchy and want the world to satisfy their every need. Why should they care about a pledge saying one nation under god if they believe in god too. They just thing its a crime that you should be put to death to if you associate politics to religion.
Also canada has the word god in their pledge but i dont hear them complaining. I wonder why :rolleyes:
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cuz canada>US thats why
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Originally posted by Jumpman
cuz canada>US thats why
They wish. Canada is like America\'s refrigerator.
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Hay if America were a person she\'d fight right into that fridge.
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Originally posted by cloud345
Allah=Submission to God, same person.
And i will flame people who oppoese the word god because those people are too touchy and want the world to satisfy their every need. Why should they care about a pledge saying one nation under god if they believe in god too. They just thing its a crime that you should be put to death to if you associate politics to religion.
Also canada has the word god in their pledge but i dont hear them complaining. I wonder why :rolleyes:
Allah and God ARE NOT THE "same person"
First off, Allah to Muslims can not be given any form or fashion. Allah is "not a person" This way the Muslims keep the purity of their God intact.
Muslims do not believe in the trinity and Allah can only be singular. Therefore, Christian God and Muslim Allah are not the same there either.
Muslims believe that Allah is the PERSONAL NAME of god. God for Christians is just sort of a nickname. Allah is one and only and nothing else can be Allah. So for you to even compare the two by the "=" sign is blasphemy. The word Allah has no gender and it is not plural.
You are insane for even trying to connect "God" to other Gods.
"Why should they care about a pledge saying one nation under god if they believe in god too."
Maybe because their God is not the one that gave up his life to save humanity. Maybe their God has not come. Maybe because their God is not divided into three separate beings?
I don\'t know, could that be it?
The people are not being "touchy" It\'s a matter of beliefs. Saying the word God is nothing of course. But when you are not only subjecting yourself verbally to a nation AND as a bonus to a deity then there is a problem. It is a problem for people that do not believe in the Christian God. It is a problem for people who do not wish to be associated with the Christian God. It is a problem with people that have a religion that punishes them for being submissive, in any way or fashion, to another God!
The words "under God" were nothing but a result from the Communism scare that this country went through. Signed by Eisenhower(sp), merely an attempt to keep the country people happy. The problem with the word is that it implies that America:
That a deity exists. Traditionally, God is viewed as at least omniscient (all knowing) and omnipotent (with infinite powers). Many religions add other attributes, such as all-loving.
Maleness: "God" implies a male deity. There is no room in the Pledge for any female deity/deities who are normally called "Goddesses."
Uniqueness: The phrase implies monotheism: that there is only a single deity who one who rules over America.
Omnipresent: The phrase implies that God rules over all of America, and is present everywhere.
Control: Most Americans probably believe that the phrase indicates a God who interferes with events on earth, guiding the U.S. in the direction that he wishes.
Get it? By using the phrase "under God" the Government is acknowledging the existence of a God, not only that, they are putting this countries faith in the hands of that God. They are not just "words" They are a statement. A statement that pretty much says that this country only identifies with the Christian God.
It is almost as bad as having prayer in school. Of course, I\'m sure it will never happen again, but that again was opposed because of the same reasons.
That is why people are "touchy" about it. Not to whine, not to bother you, it\'s just to make sure that this country\'s freedom of religion foundation is still intact.
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damn mystiq, i\'m tryin to follow you bro, but honestly..that\'s just too much to read...i think you\'re wrong about allah...i could\'ve sworn that allah and god where the same person in both religions...god for christians is a nickname?:confused: i\'m not a bible head at all but i know when i went to church that god wasn\'t a nickname...
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uhh... the Christian Trinity came about because of Jesus and The Holy Spirit. Those entities were attributed to the one God; Jesus is the son of God and God at the same time, etc. In any case both Christianity and Islam are both derivatives of Judaism and it\'s reasonable to conclude that Allah, the Chrisitan God and the God reffered to in the root religion are the same. The difference comes from how each religion sees said entity. etc.
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Wow....Mystiq please learn your religions, Allah and god are the same just differently names. This is what Muslims believe, that is why Christians and Jews were called "People of the Book".
Muslims do not believe in the trinity and Allah can only be singular. Therefore, Christian God and Muslim Allah are not the same there either.
Trinity is not God buddy, but nice try.
Al- Quran 59:22-24
God is He, Beside Whom there is no other god;- Who knows (all things) both secret and open; He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
http://www.emuslim.com/WhoIsAllah.asp
And incase you dont believe me there is a messege from the Quran calling Allah god. And it is from a muslim website.
Therefor God is Allah and god is Allah.
Hell, i dont know why I\'m arguing about it with you, you even said it in your post.
Muslims believe that Allah is the PERSONAL NAME of god. God for Christians is just sort of a nickname. Allah is one and only and nothing else can be Allah. So for you to even compare the two by the "=" sign is blasphemy. The word Allah has no gender and it is not plural.
:rolleyes:
So because they call him by his personal name and we call him by a "nickname" as you put it, they are different people? You\'re just contradicting yourself.
"Truly, I am Allah; there is no God but I; therefore serve Me"
[Al-Qur’an 20:14]
Please, check your information before you get proven wrong by a fourteen year old. :rolleyes:
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you wish you were 14 you old fart
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Ask DH hes my bro.
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Go watch Kingdom of Heaven :p
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God of Abraham = God and Allah = one and the same God
Thank you.
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You\'re welcome.
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Originally posted by EviscerationX
You\'re welcome.
You hush. Nice dress, BTW.
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Once you\'re done feltching goats, you can come back to the Forums...
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Originally posted by cloud345
Wow....Mystiq please learn your religions, Allah and god are the same just differently names. This is what Muslims believe, that is why Christians and Jews were called "People of the Book".
Trinity is not God buddy, but nice try.
How is the "trinity" not God?
God is made up of three different "beings" The the FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRITY. That is GOD. The three together is God. If the trinity is not God, then educate me.
"One of the biggest fictions about Islam is that they worship the same God as the Christians or the Jews. “Allah” may have come to mean “God,” but was originally the name of one of the minor deities of the Arabic peninsula. When Muhammed received the Qur’an he said it came from this one of the gods of the neighborhood, and claimed that he was the One God and all others were not real gods. But even if you accept that Allah is supposed to be the same God as that of the Jews or Christians, then he must have changed his whole nature in the 400 years between Jesus and Muhammed."
"If they are the same person, one wonders why Allah and God can’t agree on history. The Jewish scriptures tell of Isaac as the heir of Abraham who was placed on an altar and saved at the last minute, while Islam says Ishmael was that person. The standard explanation for the difference is that the Jews corrupted the writings for their own purposes, but that Allah says it was Ishmael. That leaves a god who either changed history, or didn’t care when history was rewritten by someone else"
http://minuteswithmessiah.tripod.com/question/notsame.html
So to put it simply. How can Allah and the Christian and Jewish God be the same if their history doesn\'t agree, their beliefs are not the same and they each view their God in a different perspective?
Originally posted by cloud345
http://www.emuslim.com/WhoIsAllah.asp
And incase you dont believe me there is a messege from the Quran calling Allah god. And it is from a muslim website.
Therefor God is Allah and god is Allah.
Hell, i dont know why I\'m arguing about it with you, you even said it in your post.
You are merely looking at the superficial level of the words my fourteen yearold. Read carefully:
Your site specifically said that Allah cannot be given "gender" and it cannot be "plural" The Christian God is a MALE that is divided into THREE ENTITITIES. How can they be the same person if even the name of the word describes what God CANNOT BE? Also, the word "God" is not the NAME of God. The word God and Goddess is affiliated with supernatural beings since way back in the Roman times. Therefore, Allah and "God" are not the same person simply because Allah IS God. Allah is it\'s name. "God" is not God\'s name. If you are so sure that Allah and Christian God are the same, then why don\'t Christians call God Allah?
Originally posted by cloud345
:rolleyes:
So because they call him by his personal name and we call him by a "nickname" as you put it, they are different people? You\'re just contradicting yourself.
Read above.
Originally posted by cloud345
Please, check your information before you get proven wrong by a fourteen year old. :rolleyes:
[/B][/QUOTE]
Check my information...Done.
Your turn.
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Cloud...the Trinity is God. Study your bible a little more.
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
So to put it simply. How can Allah and the Christian and Jewish God be the same if their history doesn\'t agree, their beliefs are not the same and they each view their God in a different perspective?
If you are so sure that Allah and Christian God are the same, then why don\'t Christians call God Allah?
Without getting all complicated with quotes from other sources who try to force a difference between the two, I think there\'s a rather simple explanation for the two (or three) major religions worshipping the same God (or Allah, depending on your culture).
All three religions, Jews and Christians and Muslims, acknowledge Abraham as the common denominator for today\'s religion. If all three acknowledge this, then is safe to say that all three worship the God of Abraham. Muslims also view Jesus as a prophet. <-- Very Important fact that you must not ignore. Since they do, then obviously you must acknowledge that Muslims and Christians (and Jews) worship the same Creator. Whether you call the Creator Jehova, Allah, Yaweh or God, it doesn\'t matter. They are the same.
You can point out some differences in history, but those are man made differences. In the whole scheme of it all - we worship the same God, Jehova, Yaweh, Allah.
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
Without getting all complicated with quotes from other sources who try to force a difference between the two, I think there\'s a rather simple explanation for the two (or three) major religions worshipping the same God (or Allah, depending on your culture).
All three religions, Jews and Christians and Muslims, acknowledge Abraham as the common denominator for today\'s religion. If all three acknowledge this, then is safe to say that all three worship the God of Abraham. Muslims also view Jesus as a prophet. <-- Very Important fact that you must not ignore. Since they do, then obviously you must acknowledge that Muslims and Christians (and Jews) worship the same Creator. Whether you call the Creator Jehova, Allah, Yaweh or God, it doesn\'t matter. They are the same.
You can point out some differences in history, but those are man made differences. In the whole scheme of it all - we worship the same God, Jehova, Yaweh, Allah.
very well said gman...it was starting to get complicated there for a minute, and i agree with everything you stated..
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Originally posted by clips
very well said gman...it was starting to get complicated there for a minute, and i agree with everything you stated..
Some people think too hard. :)
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
Without getting all complicated with quotes from other sources who try to force a difference between the two, I think there\'s a rather simple explanation for the two (or three) major religions worshipping the same God (or Allah, depending on your culture).
All three religions, Jews and Christians and Muslims, acknowledge Abraham as the common denominator for today\'s religion. If all three acknowledge this, then is safe to say that all three worship the God of Abraham. Muslims also view Jesus as a prophet. <-- Very Important fact that you must not ignore. Since they do, then obviously you must acknowledge that Muslims and Christians (and Jews) worship the same Creator. Whether you call the Creator Jehova, Allah, Yaweh or God, it doesn\'t matter. They are the same.
You can point out some differences in history, but those are man made differences. In the whole scheme of it all - we worship the same God, Jehova, Yaweh, Allah.
Well, if you just want to simply look at the superficial level of the religions then you are right.
God is the same thing in all religions.
But, when it comes to the actualy spiritual side of the spectrum, the most important one, then they are completely different.
For example, the Christians believe God to be a TRINITY. Jewish don\'t even believe Jesus to be the prophet and worship the God of the Old Testament. Which is completely different, unless your telling me that the Christiand God still requires sacrifices and prohibition of eating pork...
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http://www.chick.com/information/religions/islam/#worship
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well i agree with mystiq about the part of the jews not recognizing jesus as the prophet,...i\'ve heard that they still believe the true prophet will be born by one of them, which is why they don\'t believe in birth control...i don\'t know how true that is, but i really don\'t care enough to do research on it...
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You guys should just be glad you were born into the right religion... imagine being born into an obscure tribe in the deeps of Africa! Those poor suckas will burn in hell forever.
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
Well, if you just want to simply look at the superficial level of the religions then you are right.
God is the same thing in all religions.
But, when it comes to the actualy spiritual side of the spectrum, the most important one, then they are completely different.
For example, the Christians believe God to be a TRINITY. Jewish don\'t even believe Jesus to be the prophet and worship the God of the Old Testament. Which is completely different, unless your telling me that the Christiand God still requires sacrifices and prohibition of eating pork...
It\'s not superficial at all. It is the underlying foundation. No pun intended but JESUS CHRIST! I just told you about Abraham! I told you that Jesus is considered a prophet by Muslims and is even mention in the Koran! But you keep rambling on about the Trinity. Not all Christians believe in the Trinity, like the Orthodox Church for example.
It\'s you who keep mumbling about superficial differences. I\'m talking about the freakin\' FOUNDATION! Ain\'t nothing superficial about that, foo!
Sorry, Ashford, but history can not be denied. People can spin it, mold it and so forth for their own beliefs (I mean, jeez...his book\'s title is "Islamic Invasion", he\'s gonna be biased) but the truth is, we worship the same God. The religions may be somewhat different but that\'s not what I\'m arguing about.
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Originally posted by Samwise
You guys should just be glad you were born into the right religion... imagine being born into an obscure tribe in the deeps of Africa! Those poor suckas will burn in hell forever.
As a Christian myself, I do not believe that. Isn\'t that ironic and strange? I believe that when you die, your soul goes to meet God. Whether you were a Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Jedi....you meet God. You are judged and if you were a good person, you get to play Dynasty Warriors with the other angels like me. :D
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If you are so sure that Allah and Christian God are the same, then why don\'t Christians call God Allah?
Maybe you don\'t understand. Allah Is Arabic for god. So when a Arab says Allah they are literally saying "The God"
"He is Allah (God), the Creator, the Originator, The Fashioner, to Him belong the most beautiful names: whatever is in the heavens and on earth, do declare His praises and Glory. And He is the Exalted in Might, The Wise. (Quran 59:24)
What is this? Could the Quran itself be calling Allah by him? GIVING HIM A GENDER?!?!?!? :o
Trinity- The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost.
Father-God
Son-Jesus
Holy Ghost-(debatable) I was looking for what the holy ghost really was and I couldn\'t accually find an exact description of it, most sites said it is the Working force of God.
Don\'t take the holy sirit and the father as being two different people, or two parts of god. They are the same thing.
So to put it simply. How can Allah and the Christian and Jewish God be the same if their history doesn\'t agree, their beliefs are not the same and they each view their God in a different perspective?
How does their history not agree. All three religions are extremely similar. Abraham, Moses, Jesus and others all play significant roles in all three religions. In all three God is the one and only god and there is no other. He created everything and always has been.
What don\'t you get? Gos is Allah. Allah is God. In Arabic Al means-The and illah means- God. Together is Allah or "The God". Christians, Jews and Muslims are people of the book. You know why? Because they all believe in the same God! The reason we say god and they say Allah is a language difference.
It seems like your arguing against the Quran and other Mulsims, cause that is where I am getting all of my information from. I am taking my information from a person of the belief and the book they follow and you are taking yours from a randomn priest from california. I learned what i learned from textbooks and school, I don\'t know where you learned what you learned. You keep saying the same thing over and over when I have clearly proven you wrong.
GOD IS ALLAH AND ALLAH IS GOD. End of discussion.
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Miss Tiq is ignoring too many facts.
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I say who the hell cares... We\'ll all become fertilizer at some point. Look at it this way they may not be the same thing, but they are on the level of meaning to each religion, you can not dispute that. God is almighty as is Allah.
To sit here and argue one is the same or not will get anyone no where excepting wasting up internet space.
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Originally posted by mjps21983
I say who the hell cares... We\'ll all become fertilizer at some point. Look at it this way they may not be the same thing, but they are on the level of meaning to each religion, you can not dispute that. God is almighty as is Allah.
To sit here and argue one is the same or not will get anyone no where excepting wasting up internet space.
Shut up. :)
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Well fine lets sit here and agree with eachother and see how fun it is then.
Yes yes cherio mate Allah isnt god cherio. Tea?
;)
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Originally posted by cloud345
Well fine lets sit here and agree with eachother and see how fun it is then.
Yes yes cherio mate Allah isnt god cherio. Tea?
;)
To hell with tea! Gimme sex!
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I hate the Quran. It states to kill all infidels. What a great religion. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by EviscerationX
I hate the Quran. It states to kill all infidels. What a great religion. :rolleyes:
Really? I didn\'t know that.
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Yeah...it\'s pretty damn stupid.
"Now when you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks until you overcome them fully..." (47:4).
" O you who have attained to faith! Fight against those unbelievers who are near you and let them find you adamant, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him" (9:123).
"O Prophet! Strive hard (lit., make "jihad") against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be adamant with them... " (66:73).
"Slay the pagans wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place..." (9:5).
Some of these may be in self-defense, but I\'m not sure about the of context of the quotes.
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
It\'s not superficial at all. It is the underlying foundation. No pun intended but JESUS CHRIST! I just told you about Abraham! I told you that Jesus is considered a prophet by Muslims and is even mention in the Koran! But you keep rambling on about the Trinity. Not all Christians believe in the Trinity, like the Orthodox Church for example.
It\'s you who keep mumbling about superficial differences. I\'m talking about the freakin\' FOUNDATION! Ain\'t nothing superficial about that, foo!
Sorry, Ashford, but history can not be denied. People can spin it, mold it and so forth for their own beliefs (I mean, jeez...his book\'s title is "Islamic Invasion", he\'s gonna be biased) but the truth is, we worship the same God. The religions may be somewhat different but that\'s not what I\'m arguing about.
Abraham was the spiritual father of the religions. For Muslims, Abraham was just another prophet.
Muslims believe that all the prophets and messengers of God came with the same basic message and taught the same essential religion, that of submission (islam) to God. This list of prophets includes Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, Jonah, Elijah, Zachariah, John the Baptist, Jesus, and also Muhammad (peace be upon them all and upon all other prophets that I haven\'t mentioned here). "
Nothing more. After him, for Christians Jesus was the reformer. The one that changed the overall perspective of God. For the Jews, Jesus was nothing. For the Muslims, Jesus was a prophet.
Three different view points mean three different Gods. One cannot believe God to be a certain way while the other sees God a different way.
You can NOT have "somewhat" different religions if the God in each religion has such deep differences. You can\'t say that a Ferrari, Focus or a Jetta are the SAME car. They are still cards but they are completely different.
"Muslims also believe that the original religions and scriptures have become mixed in with man-made doctrines over time. The most obvious example of this, for Muslims, is the deification of Jesus. Additionally, the Jewish prophets (including Jesus) and scriptures were sent only to the Children of Israel and not to all of humankind. It was in order to restore the original religion of God and to bring its message to all people that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was sent with the Quran, according to Islamic belief"
http://www.muhajabah.com/islamicblog/archives/veiled4allah/007823.php
"Muslims would dispute is whether Judaism and Christianity today are true to the original religions that were established and to what degree the scriptures known today as the Torah and the Gospels contain the original text revealed by God and to what degree they include man-made doctrines."
Muslims see the Christian and Jewish religions are literally man-made. They belief them to have a skewed idea of what God wanted them to do so therefore their version of God is not the same from Muslim point of view.
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Originally posted by cloud345
Maybe you don\'t understand. Allah Is Arabic for god. So when a Arab says Allah they are literally saying "The God"
What is this? Could the Quran itself be calling Allah by him? GIVING HIM A GENDER?!?!?!? :o
No, actually Allah in Arabic means "God is great" So when an Arab says Allah, they are saying "God is great"
And like I have said. ALLAH is the PERSONAL name of God. When Christians say "God" they are not calling "God" by his name.
And about your second quote:
"Hassan says: "No, He does not have a gender. Although Allah created everything, both the seen and the unseen, it is very clear from the Qur\'an that He is unique and unlike his creation. His creatures have gender, e.g., male and female but Allah does not. Nor should it be assumed that because Allah refers to Himself as \'He\' in the Qur\'an that this is a gender as in Human gender. Incidentally in the Qur\'an Allah also refers to Himself as \'I\' and \'We\'. "
http://www.islam4schools.com/s-Allah.htm
It\'s like when there is a group of girls and boys and we call them "guys", get it?
Originally posted by cloud345
Trinity- The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost.
Father-God
Son-Jesus
Holy Ghost-(debatable) I was looking for what the holy ghost really was and I couldn\'t accually find an exact description of it, most sites said it is the Working force of God.
Don\'t take the holy sirit and the father as being two different people, or two parts of god. They are the same thing.
/B]
They are three different entities that form ONE GOD.
"Trinity - fundamental doctrine in Christianity, by which God is considered as existing in three persons. While the doctrine is not explicitly taught in the New Testament, early Christian communities testified to a perception that Jesus was God in the flesh; the idea of the Trinity has been inferred from the Gospel of St. John. The developed doctrine of the Trinity purports that God exists in three coequal and coeternal elements—God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit "
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0849427.html
Originally posted by cloud345
How does their history not agree. All three religions are extremely similar. Abraham, Moses, Jesus and others all play significant roles in all three religions. In all three God is the one and only god and there is no other. He created everything and always has been.
What don\'t you get? Gos is Allah. Allah is God. In Arabic Al means-The and illah means- God. Together is Allah or "The God". Christians, Jews and Muslims are people of the book. You know why? Because they all believe in the same God! The reason we say god and they say Allah is a language difference.
Yes they all play an important role...BUT TO A DIFFERENT DEGREE. Refer to my post to Gman.
Originally posted by cloud345
It seems like your arguing against the Quran and other Mulsims, cause that is where I am getting all of my information from. I am taking my information from a person of the belief and the book they follow and you are taking yours from a randomn priest from california. I learned what i learned from textbooks and school, I don\'t know where you learned what you learned. You keep saying the same thing over and over when I have clearly proven you wrong.
GOD IS ALLAH AND ALLAH IS GOD. End of discussion.
Asserting that you are correct is no proper way to end a discussion. You have not proven me wrong. You have just decided to skim over the deeper problem with your comment. Check my links for my sources.
http://groups.msn.com/MuslimsaroundtheWorld/faqaboutislam.msnw
Can Jesus, or Mohammed peace be upon them be worshipped?
No, Allah does not accept that a cow, a person, an angel, a prophet, a stone, or anything be worshipped in place of him, or even along with Him. Worship must be to Allah the creator of them.
Is there a trinity in Islam?
No. Allah is perfect.
Do we believe that Allah created the heavens and earth in 6 days?
Yes, but He did not rest on the seventh day, because He did not get tired. Allah is perfect He does not get tired, nor does He sleep, eat, go to the bathroom, feel pain, or die for that matter.
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Originally posted by EviscerationX
I hate the Quran. It states to kill all infidels. What a great religion. :rolleyes:
Have you read the Bible lately? :)
On another note. From my (although a bit limited) research on the Quran, it actually isn\'t so bad. In fact it\'s more liberal than the Bible for its time in some places. It\'s just that some crazy mofos interpret it differently, more agressively (but I guess you could say the same thing about the Bible).
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Have you read the Bible lately?
Have you read the New Testament lately?
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Originally posted by EviscerationX
Have you read the New Testament lately?
No, it\'s been like 6 months.
Have you read the Old Testament lately?
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Naw...it\'s been forever. :D
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
Three different view points mean three different Gods. One cannot believe God to be a certain way while the other sees God a different way.
You can NOT have "somewhat" different religions if the God in each religion has such deep differences. You can\'t say that a Ferrari, Focus or a Jetta are the SAME car. They are still cards but they are completely different.
See? This is where you\'re stupid. Even you example for differnt model of cars argues against you.
Three different views = three different Gods? Do you know how many different points views just from the Christian side there are? There are 4 major denominations of Christians: Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants and Mormons. All four have been hostile towards one another in the past, sometimes today. So you were saying? Different view = different God? You are dumb.
And BTW, Allah means God. Allah Akbar means God is Great.
I swear, you don\'t realize you do not know as much as I do and yet you keep arguing that I\'m wrong. Dude, you are wrong. Accept it. Live with it. Learn from it.
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
See? This is where you\'re stupid. Even you example for differnt model of cars argues against you.
Three different views = three different Gods? Do you know how many different points views just from the Christian side there are? There are 4 major denominations of Christians: Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants and Mormons. All four have been hostile towards one another in the past, sometimes today. So you were saying? Different view = different God? You are dumb.
And BTW, Allah means God. Allah Akbar means God is Great.
I swear, you don\'t realize you do not know as much as I do and yet you keep arguing that I\'m wrong. Dude, you are wrong. Accept it. Live with it. Learn from it.
Pluto, Minerva, Zeus, Venus, God and Allah then, when it comes down to it, the same person?
My example was a Ferrari, Focus and a Jetta...how does that prove me wrong? Three completely different cars, but they are still cars. NOT THE SAME CARS.
Different worship habits, different views on them, but they are all essentially the same?
Christianity is a complete different subject. The major division between the Christian religion is the way they worship God. Why do you think they split up in the first place? Mormons aren\'t even considered Christian by the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church thinks it self to be the REAL Church and the Orthodox follow a more traditional way of doing their worshipping.
If you were to compare how much I know with what you know, it would take a century. You insist that they are the same God. You keep comparing God BETWEEN the CHRISTIAN church and duh, they are going to worship the same God because all of the protestant religions derived from the same church!
But to say that Allah and God are the same. No, you are wrong. I have said it before and I\'ll say it again. The religions can NOT worship the same God, because their Gods are completely different "people"
Unless God is two-faced...
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
But to say that Allah and God are the same. No, you are wrong. I have said it before and I\'ll say it again. The religions can NOT worship the same God, because their Gods are completely different "people"
Unless God is two-faced...
This is where you keep making the same mistake. I\'ve already told you and proven to you by pointing to history, that the Muslims acknowledge Jesus as one of the prophet of Allah - their word for God. Not God is Great. But God. Got that? Allah Akbar means God is Great. You ~think~ you know more but you don\'t. Ya see, I\'ve been to the Middle East. I\'ve been roomates with Muslims. I\'ve read history books, read thesis, spoken with scholars and professors. Different interpretations of one thing does not make that one thing different from what it was. Next thing you\'re gonna say is that Luna is not the Moon.
^ that right there should tell you something but you\'re too thickheaded and ignorant to know any better.
What are you? A 12th grader? You\'re too damn stubborn and you watch too much MTV. Listen to your elders. We know more than you.
Admit you\'re wrong. Turn off MTV.
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Agh SirMyst!@#!@#!#
Both Christianity and Islam came from Judaism!! This means they\'re looking at the same god but see it differently. Jesus Christ! (PUN!) get it through your head already!
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
This is where you keep making the same mistake. I\'ve already told you and proven to you by pointing to history, that the Muslims acknowledge Jesus as one of the prophet of Allah - their word for God. Not God is Great. But God. Got that? Allah Akbar means God is Great. You ~think~ you know more but you don\'t. Ya see, I\'ve been to the Middle East. I\'ve been roomates with Muslims. I\'ve read history books, read thesis, spoken with scholars and professors. Different interpretations of one thing does not make that one thing different from what it was. Next thing you\'re gonna say is that Luna is not the Moon.
^ that right there should tell you something but you\'re too thickheaded and ignorant to know any better.
What are you? A 12th grader? You\'re too damn stubborn and you watch too much MTV. Listen to your elders. We know more than you.
Admit you\'re wrong. Turn off MTV.
So much experience yet so little deep thinking. I guess experience doesn\'t equal smarts in your case.
First, What does the fact that Muslims acknowledge Jesus as a Prophet have ANYTHING to do with God?
I\'ve already told you that Muslims see Christianity as a MAN MADE religion and Christ is just PROPHET. While on the other hand, Christians see Jesus as PART OF GOD. That is why the believe of the trinity is so critical. Muslims don\'t pray to Jesus, they don\'t consider Jesus a deity, He is just a prophet. The muslim God is just ONE person and Jesus has NOTHING to do with it other than being a prophet. You have proven nothing by history except that Abraham is the father of the three religions.
You keep ignoring my points by smearing one single comment you have and that comment to you seems to be the most correct. It is not. The fact that Muslims ACKNOWLEDGE Jesus as a prophet doesn\'t make the Gods the same.
Please, don\'t try to play the mature game. Because I\'m pretty damn sure that when it comes down to it, your intelligence is but a tick to mine.
How old are you anyways?
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Originally posted by Avatarr
Agh SirMyst!@#!@#!#
Both Christianity and Islam came from Judaism!! This means they\'re looking at the same god but see it differently. Jesus Christ! (PUN!) get it through your head already!
I know that. But just listen to what I\'m saying damn it!
How can two Gods that are perceived to be completely different be the same.
I admit, they are BOTH Gods but spiritually, from the beliefs of the people they are essentially different.
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
I know that. But just listen to what I\'m saying damn it!
How can two Gods that are perceived to be completely different be the same.
I admit, they are BOTH Gods but spiritually, from the beliefs of the people they are essentially different.
They are still the same God. Religions can have their own interpretations about Allah who is God to Christians. God is not perceived all that different by Muslims and Christians. They have their own Quran, as Christians have the Bible, as the Mormons (who are Christians as well) have The Book of Latter Day Saints.
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
So much experience yet so little deep thinking. I guess experience doesn\'t equal smarts in your case.
First, What does the fact that Muslims acknowledge Jesus as a Prophet have ANYTHING to do with God?
I\'ve already told you that Muslims see Christianity as a MAN MADE religion and Christ is just PROPHET. While on the other hand, Christians see Jesus as PART OF GOD. That is why the believe of the trinity is so critical. Muslims don\'t pray to Jesus, they don\'t consider Jesus a deity, He is just a prophet. The muslim God is just ONE person and Jesus has NOTHING to do with it other than being a prophet. You have proven nothing by history except that Abraham is the father of the three religions.
You keep ignoring my points by smearing one single comment you have and that comment to you seems to be the most correct. It is not. The fact that Muslims ACKNOWLEDGE Jesus as a prophet doesn\'t make the Gods the same.
Please, don\'t try to play the mature game. Because I\'m pretty damn sure that when it comes down to it, your intelligence is but a tick to mine.
How old are you anyways?
Miss, you are dumber than fecal matter. Jesus is IN the Koran! He is a prophet of Allah! What else is there for me to make you realise that you are wrong? Or are you just too proud to admit you\'re wrong? Or are you just that stupid?
Git yer dumb ass back south of the border, please. If you don\'t, then please do not have kids coz you\'re gonna pass on your dum-dum genes to them.
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We have to stop trying....it\'s pointless.
Mystiq is just too smart for us, for the quran, for the bible, for professors, for text books, hell, hes even to smart for the muslims.
First, What does the fact that Muslims acknowledge Jesus as a Prophet have ANYTHING to do with God?
Because that means that Jesus has spoken to God. In one religion he is the son of god. In the other he talks to god.
For you to ignore it and say it doesnt have to be the same god is just you being thick headed. For you to completely ignore the Qur\'an and the beliefs of Islam and say they are different people just because you found a couple of things that "might" point to them as being different is comple ignorance!
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
Miss, you are dumber than fecal matter. Jesus is IN the Koran! He is a prophet of Allah! What else is there for me to make you realise that you are wrong? Or are you just too proud to admit you\'re wrong? Or are you just that stupid?
Git yer dumb ass back south of the border, please. If you don\'t, then please do not have kids coz you\'re gonna pass on your dum-dum genes to them.
I have put up with your insults for some time now and I really don\'t intend to retaliate to your "mature" comments.
What you just said had NOTHING to do with your assumptions. I never said Jesus was not in the Koran you fool. Jesus is NOT DIVINE to Islam. To Muslims MOHEMMED is the one that bought the FINAL will of God to earth.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/2005/003/2.20.html
And the rest of your post is a bunch of dim-witted racist bullshit that I really could care less about. It only highlites your ignorant stupidity.
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Originally posted by cloud345
We have to stop trying....it\'s pointless.
Mystiq is just too smart for us, for the quran, for the bible, for professors, for text books, hell, hes even to smart for the muslims.
Because that means that Jesus has spoken to God. In one religion he is the son of god. In the other he talks to god.
For you to ignore it and say it doesnt have to be the same god is just you being thick headed. For you to completely ignore the Qur\'an and the beliefs of Islam and say they are different people just because you found a couple of things that "might" point to them as being different is comple ignorance!
You are clinically retarded. To even attempt to prove me wrong on your part is pretty pathetic.
You have proven nothing to me except that you know some basic knowledge of the religions. I have provided links, articles and comments by SCHOLARS, MUSLIMS AND TEXTBOOKS. You have ignored them all just like Gman has.
Both of you keep attacking me as if I was the only one in the world that thinks this way. Guess again fools.
In one religion Jesus is PART OF GOD. On another he is merely a prophet overshadowed by another final prophet.
LOOK:
http://www.bible.ca/islam/library/islam-quotes-afshari.htm
"That Islam was conceived in idolatry is shown by the fact that many rituals performed in the name of Allah were connected with the pagan worship that existed before Islam. And today, millions of Moslems pray towards Mecca, where the famous revered black stone is located. 1.Before Islam Allah was reported to be know as: the supreme of a pantheon of gods; the name of a god whom the Arabs worshipped; the chief god of the pantheon; Ali-ilah; the god; the supreme; the all-powerful; all-knowing; and totally unknowable; the predeterminer of everyone’s life destiny; chief of the gods; the special deity of the Quraish; having three daughters: Al Uzzah (Venus), Manah (Destiny), and Alat; having the idol temple at Mecca under his name (House of Allah).; the mate of Alat, the goddess of fate. 2.Because the Ka’aba, the sacred shrine which contains the Black Stone, in Mecca was used for pagan idol worship before Islam and even called the House of Allah at that time. 3.Because the rituals involved with the Islamic Pilgrimage are either identical or very close to the pre-Islamic pagan idol worship at Mecca. 4. Because of other Arabian history which points to heathen worship of the sun, moon, and the stars, as well as other gods, of which I believe Allah was in some way connected to. This then would prove to us that Allah is not the same as the true God of the Bible whom we worship, because God never changes." (Is Allah The Same God As The God Of The Bible?, M. J. Afshari, p 6, 8-9)
http://minuteswithmessiah.tripod.com/question/notsame.html
http://www.christianresponse.org/articles/47/are-allah-and-god-the-same
http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/_PDFArchives/islam/IS1W0403.pdf
http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch3.html
How about this Cloud and Gman, you read those websites and get over your "I\'m right because I said so" attitudes, grow up and then come back and respond.
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Dude those are all right wing christian sources that look for shit to deride and belittle non-christian religions. It doesn\'t matter anyway. If you ask a muslim what they\'re refering to when they say \'Allah\' and they say \'God\', you can\'t really prove them wrong. \'Allah\', \'God\', \'Yaweh\', \'Jehovah\', they\'re all just designatoins. They have their origins, but they certainly have a definate definition today.
this thread needs a lock.
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Oh also, prophets prophets... pophet of who? \'ALLAH\' == \'GOD\'
MISTIQ == DUMBSHIT
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Mystiq - you are going to reach China pretty soon with the hole you are digging. You are wrong.
All three share a commitment to the faith of Abraham. Islam and Christianity rely heavily on Hebrew teachings so fundamentally they all believe in the same God. It is the relationship with God and the people that make the three differ.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Mystiq - you are going to reach China pretty soon with the hole you are digging. You are wrong.
All three share a commitment to the faith of Abraham. Islam and Christianity rely heavily on Hebrew teachings so fundamentally they all believe in the same God. It is the relationship with God and the people that make the three differ.
Man, if Giga, who\'s not all that religious can see the the common thread between the three, why can\'t you Miss Tiq?
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cuz he\'s a fucknut who wants to make islam look evil and hedonistic.
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mystiq...when giga and gman rip you from time to time i do kinda think it\'s over the top but, c\'mon man i\'m not a religious head in the least amount but i know that christians and muslims worship the same god...y\'know i\'ve seen some stickers on cars that stated "jesus is lord" maybe this what you\'re referring to to a degree, but ultimately they are the same god...yo, i haven\'t been right about every single thing i\'ve stated on this board, and when i\'m corrected i just look at it as if i\'ve learned something...
keep in mind that there will always be somebody that knows something you don\'t, or vice versa,...but it\'s nothing to be ashamed about,..just let this one go...
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Please Mystiq, your getting links from people who have studied stuff, I\'m not even going to bother looking at them because if they believe they are different gods as you do, they are wrong.
I gave you sources from where I got my info, which inluded muslims, teachers, very religous people oh and lets not forget the Quran. Which did you know, it says that Allah is god? It\'s very interesting. Although I may be wrong in thinking the Quran is a reliable source on this subject. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by cloud345
Please Mystiq, your getting links from people who have studied stuff, I\'m not even going to bother looking at them because if they believe they are different gods as you do, they are wrong.
I gave you sources from where I got my info, which inluded muslims, teachers, very religous people oh and lets not forget the Quran. Which did you know, it says that Allah is god? It\'s very interesting. Although I may be wrong in thinking the Quran is a reliable source on this subject. :rolleyes:
Oh...he\'ll say something like "I know more than the Koran. MTV is God."
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Just stop posting, Mystiq.
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"Just stop posting Mystiq"?
Regardless of what you claim to be right, I see them as two different Gods. That is my interpretation. Why? Because I too have a Muslim friend who is gets very offended when people tell him that they are the same God. I\'ve read plenty of papers about it and I will not change my mind until somebody shows me something concrete that clearly points that when Christians pray to their God they are praying to the Muslim God. I was raised a Catholic but I don\'t recognize any other protestant religion as a true Christian one. Why? B/c of their interpretation of what God is. Simple.
I do know that they all share a THREAD to Abraham. That is it, when it comes down to each invidividual belief in their respective God, their beliefs are completely different. You can draw a connection, but you will not get a Christian to pray with a Muslim or vice-versa.
Gman, what is it with you and saying that I watch MTV anyways? I watch Comedy Central alot, just to give you a hint on other ways you can steryotype...
BTW Cloud, you only once gave me a "source" from the Quaran in which God called himself a "He" I responded to that with a link from a MUSLIM website explaining that.
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I was just adding to the fire.
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SirMistiq needs to be sodomised by a donkey.
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Somehow the fact that Jesus is in the Koran seems to go right over his empty head. There are bumper stickers about Islam and displaying their respect for Jesus.
http://www.isoc-unsw.org.au/talks/badawi/node2.html#SECTION00020000000000000000
No less than 11 chapters of the Qur\'an (out of 114) mention Jesus or his teachings. In fact one of the chapters is called Mariam (Mary), the mother of Jesus. The praise is not only given to Jesus, but to Jesus\' family in to which he was born. The Qur\'an does not question the virgin birth, and talks of it as one of the signs of Allah\'s ultimate power, and describes Jesus as a word from God, not the word from God. We are all vreated by the creative command of God ``be\'\'. He is also a ``spirit\'\' from God, not the ``spirit\'\' of God.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/shabir.ally/new_page_24.htm
Unless MTV says so, Miss Tiq will keep on believing the Koran is wrong.
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Al- Quran 59:22-24
God is He, Beside Whom there is no other god;- Who knows (all things) both secret and open; He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
"Truly, I am Allah; there is no God but I; therefore serve Me"
[Al-Qur’an 20:14]
There are to quotes from my previous posts from the Quran having Allah say he is god. And please dont say just because he said he is god that doesnt mean he is the christian god beacause you know damn well which god he is. If you truley believe that he is not the same god as the christian god along with your friend you are both ignoarant and don\'t believe anything but what you want to believe. Your Muslim friend has really no idea what he is praying to now does he? I have an extremely religous muslim friend who says that Allah is God. Tell your friend to get more in touch with his religion and to understand what he is praying to before he does it.
The bottom line is that your wrong about it Mystiq, this isnt a matter of opinion, it\'s in the Quran, it\'s what the belief of the religion is. Anything you say or do about it is pointless. YOU ARE WRONG PLEASE GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEAD!
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Someone rename this thread as "Miss Tiq gets pwn3d"
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They are not the same God.
Muslims have three asreas of blasphemy;
1) They deny Jesus is God\'s Son. ("Allah" cannot have a "son"). Our God, YHWH, has a Son.
2) They deny the Lord Jesus Christ died.
3) They deny the Fatherhood of God.
However we have to remember that God has promised to bless the Arab peoples: Ishmael and Esau (from whom the Arab peoples are descended) were blessed by God and still have blessings to come.
I have heard of Muslims breaking down in tears when they have heard the parable of the Prodigal Son because a Muslim father would not run out to meet a wayward son (it would be more a case of "You come here boy!") - and when Muslims come to see how YHWH is such a loving Father it melts their hearts and brings them to salvation in the Lord Jesus.
As Mohammad wrote in the Qu\'ran: "You shall not say, Trinity. You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master." [Qu\'ran, Sura 4:171]
From this it is clear that Muslims deny that God has a Son.
---People from another forum
I have never rejected, Gman, that Jesus was in the Koran. Never. Yet, you keep bringing that issue up as if I had done so. I haven\'t and it really has nothing to do with your point. So, what if Jesus was in the Koran? That does not prove that God is Allah. In fact, the Muslim rejection of Jesus only helps deteriorate the connection between God and Allah.
Cloud, you have yet to prove anything. The New Testament speaks about the Trinity made up of Jesus, Holy Ghost and The Father. It speaks about original sin and tolerance.
You keep bringing up the Koran and simply putting up text where Allah says he is God. Duh, it\'s the freaking Koran, what do you expect it to say? You have yet to draw ANY connection between Christianity and Islam other than historical references which when it comes down to it, do not matter RIGHT NOW.
Oh, and Gman. Grow up. I don\'t watch MTV. Please, I don\'t care that you are trying to steryotype, but can you be a bit smarter and get away from the moronic racial and age steryotypes? Thank you.
BTW, how old are you?
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Extremely weak argument. This is not about whether or not they believe Jesus is God\'s Son. This is if God is Allah, the same God that Jesus is a prophet of.
Think of it this way: Jesus is a Prophet of God. Jesus is a Prophet of Allah. There is only one Jesus. There is only one God. There is only one Allah. Muslims and Jews claim they worship the God of Abraham. Therefore Allah = God.
Basic algebra for you.
Many Christians believe in the Holy Trinity. The Orthodox Church and Catholic Church, which were once united, split because of their interpetation of the Holy Trinity. Muslims do not believe in the Holy Trinity. They don\'t believe that Jesus is the Messiah. They do acknowledge that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary and who else could get her pregnant except Allah? But that is about as close as they come to saying that Jesus is the Son of God.
Interpretations is not what we\'re arging about. That is what makes denominations among all religions. But Muslims and Christians and Jews worship the same God. How we worship is what makes us Muslims, Christians and Jews. Same God. Different religions.
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Mystiq -
It is all about the Old Testament with a little New Testament shared by all 3 religions. You are also wrong about historical references as well since that is what Judiaism, Islam and Christianity draw upon - historical writings and teachings.
I was raised a Catholic but I don\'t recognize any other protestant religion as a true Christian one. Why? B/c of their interpretation of what God is. Simple.
Simply wrong.
Protestants don\'t worship the same God as Catholics? When did this happen? Do you not know Protestantism spawned from the Catholic Church? You really need to stop posting Mystiq - you are an ignorant ass.
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has this thread dragged on long enough giga?
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organized religions are humanity\'s biggest obstacle.
The country was founded on the seperation of church and state, and it needs to stay that way. Evangelicans have the right to practice their religion, they do not have the right to force personal faith or idealogies down other peoples throats.
They believe in a god, then they shoudl realize that each human willbe judged individually. Obviously they do not believe what they preach like the hypocrites they are.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Mystiq -
It is all about the Old Testament with a little New Testament shared by all 3 religions. You are also wrong about historical references as well since that is what Judiaism, Islam and Christianity draw upon - historical writings and teachings.
Simply wrong.
Protestants don\'t worship the same God as Catholics? When did this happen? Do you not know Protestantism spawned from the Catholic Church? You really need to stop posting Mystiq - you are an ignorant ass.
Maybe...before you begin name calling, you should actually read what I wrote. Ad Hominem does not help your cause. And what I have noticed, that is all you people have really brought up against me. Nothing to refute my argument, just my character. Nice!
I said I don\'t recognize, well Catholics do not recognize protestant religions as actualy believers. They profess their belief in God but they don\'t actually do it in the way God wants them to do it. Never said that they didn\'t believe in God. Protestants and Catholics are a complete different subject.
Gman. You keep saying the same thing over and over. Jesus was a prophet. Jesus was the son of God. Jesus was born from Mary. Ok, what does that have to do with Islam and Christianity. That draws no connection, in fact you leave out the most important facts concerning Jesus. Jesus for Christians was the last and CORRECT prophet. Muslims see Muhammed as the last prophet, but also see Jesus and others a prophets. Except, they see muhammed as the actual prophet that God sent to earth. They do not acknowledge Jesus\' divinity, they don\'t see him as part of God. That is a major issue, yet you keep ignoring it. God is a trinity to the Christians, which includes Jesus. God is NOT a trinity to the Muslims. How can that be?
Quote: Mateo el Feo
Sure they\'re not minor but they\'re not major enough to make the God of Abraham into a new God.
The fact that Jesus Christ is God is pretty major. I would support this opinion by the fact that the Quran bothers to explicitly deny this and other facts, such as the Crucifixion.
This is just plain wrong, Monk. Muslims look at both the Old and New Testaments as corrupted texts. In fact, the Quran is quite clear about this fact. Let me know if you would like a sura cited.
Almost, they believe the Old and New testament are not the full truth and that the koran is more right than both the sources.
I\'ll provide the quote from the Quran with a little commentary:
QUOTE (Quran 5.13-15)
But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).
And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did.
O followers of the Book! indeed Our Apostle has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah;
In verse 13, the Quran claims that Jews "altered the words" of the book given to Musa (Moses). In verse 15, the same claim is against the "followers of the Book" (i.e. both Jews and Christians).
According to the Quran, Isa received a book from Allah, not unlike Muhammed\'s "book from Allah." As you can imagine, the things in the New Testament that conflict with the Quran add up really quickly. Because of these conflicts and the advice of Sura 5.15, the message to Muslims (as best as I can understand) is to avoid reading the OT and NT. Of course, it is a great grace when a Muslim is open to reading the Holy Bible, so that he/she can discover God\'s love for him/her.
In contrast to Islam\'s rejection of the Holy Bible, Christians don\'t believe that the Old Testament was corrupted by the Jews. On the contrary, Christians believe that the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ lies hidden in the words of the Old Testament.
And finally, back to the main topic:
The Church documents that have been quoted--apparently in support of the "same God position"--have one curious thing in common. That is: none of these Church documents use the term "same"! I think that it\'s prudent to avoid the term.
Unfortunately, translations of a speech from Pope John Paul II to a crowd of Muslim youth in Morocco (August 19, 1985--link) include the statement that Christians and Muslims worship "the same God." I believe that the original language was French ("Nous croyons au même Dieu"). My own opinions are:
1) Pope John Paul II really made an effort to establish a dialogue with non-Christians, and his language (e.g. "same God") was a product of this effort. While many Muslims appreciate our late pope personally for his conciliatory efforts, Christians still find their religion significantly restricted or even banned in many Muslim countries.
2) The dictionary includes the following four definitions of the adjective "same":
QUOTE
1. Being the very one; identical: the same boat we rented before.
2. Similar in kind, quality, quantity, or degree.
3. Conforming in every detail: according to the same rules as before.
4. Being the one previously mentioned or indicated; aforesaid.
Even if the pope meant definition #2 (i.e. similar) when he spoke, I would suggest that most English speakers hear #1 (i.e. identical). For those who believe that he was using definition #1 (note: such a statement is objectively heretical), the pope\'s own words strike down such a possibility moments later in the speeches as he goes on to explain how the Christian God and Muslim Allah differ.
IMHO, the term "similar" would be a more accurate description of the relationship between the divinities of the two faiths.
My feeling is that the use of phrases like "same God" are really an opportunity for scandalizing the faithful, unless these phrases are carefully explained in light of Catholic Tradition. Since Vatican II, the Vatican has been dealing with the fruits of ambiguous teachings. For a good example of the "clean-up" being done, see Redemptionis Sacramentum from Cardinal Arinze.
I do trust that Pope Benedict XVI will show great care in the words he uses as he engages in dialog with both non-Catholics and non-Christians, and shares the Gospel of Jesus Christ with the world.
---Mateo el Feo
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At this point I just feel bad for how slow you are Mystiq......
Jesus is the messiah in christianity but a prophet in Islam and Christianity. THIS HAS ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING TO DO WITH WETHER OR NO THEY WORSHIP THE SAME GOD SO STOP SAYING IT!
It\'s really quite simple and it baffles me how you seem to be avoiding the truth just because you are acting to highly to be proven wrong. I\'ll try from a different approach.
Judaism was the first monotheistic religion. Both Islam and Christianity get their base belief God. The way they see Jesus, worship God or practice their belief doesnt change the fact they believe in the same god.
Lets say I thought God was a girl, and than somebody else came up and said god was a boy. This may be to hard for your ignorant mind to understand, but that doesnt mean they are different Gods. It\'s just the way people chose to ackonowledge God.
I am really trying to explain this as simple as I possibly can. Abraham talked to Allah, and he also talked to God. You wanna know why? Because they are the same person! Moses talked to god, as well as Allah. Why? Once again God and Allah are the same!
Both religions got their same base belief from the same source. The reason why they are not the same religion is because of the differences they had after that. Some of the differences are Jesus and other people.
For Allah to be God they don\'t have to be worshiped or shown the same exact way in both religions. they can have differences, this is something you fail to comprehend.
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Originally posted by cloud345
For Allah to be God they don\'t have to be worshiped or shown the same exact way in both religions. they can have differences, this is something you fail to comprehend.
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Originally posted by cloud345
At this point I just feel bad for how slow you are Mystiq......
Jesus is the messiah in christianity but a prophet in Islam and Christianity. THIS HAS ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING TO DO WITH WETHER OR NO THEY WORSHIP THE SAME GOD SO STOP SAYING IT!
It\'s really quite simple and it baffles me how you seem to be avoiding the truth just because you are acting to highly to be proven wrong. I\'ll try from a different approach.
Judaism was the first monotheistic religion. Both Islam and Christianity get their base belief God. The way they see Jesus, worship God or practice their belief doesnt change the fact they believe in the same god.
Lets say I thought God was a girl, and than somebody else came up and said god was a boy. This may be to hard for your ignorant mind to understand, but that doesnt mean they are different Gods. It\'s just the way people chose to ackonowledge God.
I am really trying to explain this as simple as I possibly can. Abraham talked to Allah, and he also talked to God. You wanna know why? Because they are the same person! Moses talked to god, as well as Allah. Why? Once again God and Allah are the same!
Both religions got their same base belief from the same source. The reason why they are not the same religion is because of the differences they had after that. Some of the differences are Jesus and other people.
For Allah to be God they don\'t have to be worshiped or shown the same exact way in both religions. they can have differences, this is something you fail to comprehend.
Too hard for me to understand? I think you are doing a great job at IGNORING everything I have posted.
Jesus IS GOD. You wanna know why? Because he is part of God from the Christian perspective.
I don\'t need you to feel sorry for how "slow" I am because to be honest, all you have really put up is strictly superficial. I have given you posts with proof refuting everything you have said.
You keep trying to prove something historically which is a VERY weak link. So what if Christianity and Islam derived from Judaism? That proves nothing. What counts is what goes on RIGHT now. Sure, I can safely say that they are the same God symbolically. But when it comes down to the actual teaching, belief and ideals the Gods are completely different people.
You insist on downplaying the importance of Jesus with this entire argument. Which, makes your argument extremely weak.
Let\'s keep it simple:
Is Jesus God in Christanity?
Is refusing to believe in the divinity of Jesus the same as not believing in God in the eyes of a Christian?
Is acknowledging Jesus as the final messiah and God against the Islam teachings?
Is God three people or one?
And, I\'ve learned from Giga(Believe it or not) to break apart your post and refute each one. I have done it. But you haven\'t. Example, my last post showed you what the KORAN HAS WRITTEN. You haven\'t even mentioned anything. Both you and Gman keep drinking out of the same cup while there are a thousand more cups and a hole pitcher of water left.
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Originally posted by Jumpman
has this thread dragged on long enough giga?
Nah people seem to be enjoying the debate and it is for the most part staying on topic - ie. religion (though not seperation).
It is also amusing to see Mystiq make more of a fool out of himself. If it gets OT it will be closed.
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
I said I don\'t recognize, well Catholics do not recognize protestant religions as actualy believers. They profess their belief in God but they don\'t actually do it in the way God wants them to do it. Never said that they didn\'t believe in God. Protestants and Catholics are a complete different subject.
Can another Catholic back this up? I don\'t believe that the Catholic Church or most of its members view Protestants as "non believers" who worship a different God.
Also who are you to say what "God wants"? This is not a different subject Mystiq - you claimed Muslims and Christians don\'t worship the same God, now you are claiming Protestants and Catholics don\'t worship the same God.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Can another Catholic back this up? I don\'t believe that the Catholic Church or most of its members view Protestants as "non believers" who worship a different God.
Here\'s my 2 cents.
1.) I\'ve gone to a Baptist Church for three straight years, listened to at least 40-50 different pastors or youth ministers. Guys who seriously know their theology and when issues of other religions, particularly Islam, not one has said that they worship a different God.
2.) I go to what I consider a fairly sturdy Catholic university, and as a Christian (Non-Catholic) and small little debates with Catholics, they have never ever stated that I am worshipping another God.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Can another Catholic back this up? I don\'t believe that the Catholic Church or most of its members view Protestants as "non believers" who worship a different God.
Also who are you to say what "God wants"? This is not a different subject Mystiq - you claimed Muslims and Christians don\'t worship the same God, now you are claiming Protestants and Catholics don\'t worship the same God.
I am Catholic. And I know that all Catholics, Protestants, Mormons and Jehova\'s Witness - all of them Christians - worship the same God. Misstique is a dumb ass. I should write to his parish.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Can another Catholic back this up? I don\'t believe that the Catholic Church or most of its members view Protestants as "non believers" who worship a different God.
Also who are you to say what "God wants"? This is not a different subject Mystiq - you claimed Muslims and Christians don\'t worship the same God, now you are claiming Protestants and Catholics don\'t worship the same God.
Well Giga. I can recall saying that the Catholic Church does not recognize other Christian religions because of the way they worship God. I think I took it too far by saying we don\'t recognize them, but let\'s put it this way.
Non-Catholic = Broke away from the TRUE CHURCH according to Catholics.
Never did I say they were different Gods. But, if it helps you, Cloud and Gman in your constant irrelevant attacks to my me instead of my post, then so be it.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp
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Originally posted by SirMystiq
Never did I say they were different Gods. But, if it helps you, Cloud and Gman in your constant irrelevant attacks to my me instead of my post, then so be it.
You didn\'t? I think a majority of the posters in this thread would disagree with that statement. Stop whining about "attacks" on you - they are attacking your fucked up views and if you can\'t handle it don\'t post here. Just admit you are wrong and this thread will die.
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How long do you sit there and type for? :eek: Days? Months? ... Years?
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You seem to think for some random and odd reason that Jesus determines the God.
Just because he is the Messiah in christianity and a prophet in another has nothing to do with the God. You seem to think that Jesus is god ad I don\'t know who has told you this but Jesus is the son of god. If he was not God why would he ever have to pray to God? What would be the point of him praying to himself?
So to answer your first question, No Jesus is not God.
In the eyes of christians, I have not once heard someone say that Jews or Mulsims worship a different god because they dont believe Jesus is the son of God. Where you heard that, once again I do not know.
As for your next question I will tell you once again, the way a religion views Jesus, does not determine the way they view God. Also, once again, Jesus is not God. God has always been. Jesus was born and then created by God. There for he can not be god. God is one, he is the only one, there is no god besides him.
God is not three people. I have said this before.
God=God
Jesus=Son
Holy Spirit=God\'s Spirit
It\'s just like saying I am two different people, one for my body and one for my soul.
"Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on Him that sent me. And he that seeth me, seeth Him that sent me." (...) For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
John 17:3
There are two quotes from the bible having Jesus say he is not god.
Also did you know that Jesus is more than a prophet in Islam? In Islam it is said that one day a man pretending to be the reincarnation of Jesus will try to gain followers. At the same time the real Jesus will be born again and he will gain followers. On Judgement day, the real Jesus will take his followers to heaven and let the false Jesus and his followers go to hell.
Now answer my Question:
Muslims, Christians and Jews all believe in one god. All three have people who have all talken to god in all three religions. Who do you think Abraham was talking to in Christianity? Who do you think he was talking in Islam? And Judaism?
Why would Muslims and Christians change the god of the religion they base their beliefs on?
Why are Christians and Jews considered people of the book?
Is Jesus not a prophet in Judaism? They worship the same god as christians do, so why cant it be the same with Islam?
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Jesus is God, and Jesus is also the son of God. Jesus is man and Jesus is God in the bible. Don\'t know what books you\'re reading.
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Don\'t know what books your reading either.
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I\'m not arguing with you because you\'re just wrong.
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I could say youre wrong too....but that isnt proving anything now is it.
I\'ve seen arguments about wether Jesus is god or not and it\'s really just how someone interperts the bible. There are some passages suggesting Jesus is God, but at the same time there are some that say he is not.
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Are you arguing from a non-Christian perspective based on assumptions and stereotypes of other people? Or do you just not know what you\'re talking about?
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The New Testament has conflicting positions about Jesus being God and Jesus being the Son of God.
Jesus, while on the cross, does cry out to God asking why He has forsaken Him.
I believe this is where Protestants broke up into other denominations because of this conflicting view. I\'m wondering if this is what also created the Great Schism between the Western and Eastern Universal (Catholic) Church.
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You have to look at the original language concerning the crying out on the cross thing. The word he uses for "God" means something completely different than translated versions of the text.
I guess everyone can stop calling Jesus their "Lord" huh? Because it\'s too conflicting.
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Originally posted by EviscerationX
You have to look at the original language concerning the crying out on the cross thing. The word he uses for "God" means something completely different than translated versions of the text.
I guess everyone can stop calling Jesus their "Lord" huh? Because it\'s too conflicting.
I\'ve been to several Bible studies of different Christian religions and so I\'m just telling you how they view Jesus and God. I\'m not arguing about this part. Misstique\'s cranium has less density than a helium balloon.
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Misstique\'s cranium has less density than a helium balloon.
Agreed.
I\'ve been to several Bible studies of different Christian religions and so I\'m just telling you how they view Jesus and God. I\'m not arguing about this part.
I know. You brought up one of the big factors of this issue that a lot of people debate. So it all gets a little confusing.
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No, I myself am christian and I do not believe Jesus is god. I looked at some passages from the bible that pointed to him as not being god. But at the same time I saw some that pointed to him being god. It\'s how you interpret the book.
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jesus is not god...some say he is because of how some say god did his deeds through jesus..i think in some verses of the bible jesus states something to the effect of "please don\'t credit me with these magnificant feats,..i\'am doing thework of god" maybe this is how some "interpret" jesus is god...
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No, I myself am christian and I do not believe Jesus is god. I looked at some passages from the bible that pointed to him as not being god. But at the same time I saw some that pointed to him being god. It\'s how you interpret the book.
It would be nice if you would stop being so vague and actually post the verses in question. It doesn\'t matter how man interprets the book, if you truly believe the book is the Word of God, then only God\'s interpretation matters. 2 Timothy 2:15 -- "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth."
There are no two perspectives in the Word of Truth. If there is a right perspective, there can be a wrong perspective. And the only perspective that matters is God\'s.
jesus is not god...some say he is because of how some say god did his deeds through jesus..i think in some verses of the bible jesus states something to the effect of "please don\'t credit me with these magnificant feats,..i\'am doing thework of god" maybe this is how some "interpret" jesus is god...
Wow...that was an excellent quote of something from somewhere. That\'s...great.
Here\'s a few:
John 1:1 -- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John: 1:14 -- "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
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John 8:58 -- Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
John 8:59-A -- "Then they took up stones to throw at Him..."
2 Peter 1:20 -- "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation."
2 Peter 1:21 -- "For prophecy never came by the will of man, let holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."
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"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
John 17:3
"Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on Him that sent me. And he that seeth me, seeth Him that sent me." (...) For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt. 24:36)
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46).
"O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt. 26:36))Jesus Praying to god.)
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)
"Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37)
John 14:28: "My Father is greater than I."
"I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." (John 8:42)
John 7:16 "Jesus answered them and said, \'My doctrine is not mine, but His who sent me.\' "
John 14:24 "He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but The Father\'s who sent me."
John 4:34 "Jesus said to them, \'My food is to do the will of Him who sent me, and to accomplish His work.\' "
John 5:19 "Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..."
John 15:2 "My Father takes away every branch in me that bears not fruit; he purges it; that it may bring forth more fruit."
John 8:31 "You are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God” This ones good.
Mark 10:18 "And Jesus said to him, \'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.\' " thats a good one as well.
John 10:29 "My Father is greater than all."
John 14:28 "My Father is greater than I."
Jn.20:17 Jesus said "I am ascending to my Father and your Father to my God and your God."
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Very Good One.
There some quotes from the bible saying Jesus is not god, but was sent by god and is someone which god speaks threw.