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Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: THX on May 19, 2005, 05:19:03 PM

Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: THX on May 19, 2005, 05:19:03 PM
So this is what we have:

Sony PS3 to use Blu-Ray:

- Columbia, MGM, 20th Century Fox, Dell, and HP all support Blu-ray
- The first version can be dual-layer for 50gb of storage space
- TDK just announced it has made an 100gb version of BR (link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7910018/))
- Sony is pushing it\'s recording capabilities, which sounds pretty decent

Xbox 360 is rumored (http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000597043723) to support HD-DVD:

- Warner, Paramount, Universal and New Line Cinema all support HD-DVD
- First version can be dual-layer for up to 30gb of storage space
- Toshiba recently announced a triple layer can be added for 45gb

And talks of a Blu-Ray / HD-DVD merger are still up in the air. (link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7910018/))  As for deciding which format you should choose based on the studio, it\'s been noted that the studios are pretty flexible about formats (especially Fox) and sound like they are willing to side with the competitor if they are the better contendor in the format war.

I\'d personally like to see a merger between the two camps but the way Japanese businessmen are (dead serious, they are stubborn & very prideful) we may see a war after all.  If that\'s the case I\'d like to see Sony win out, Toshiba with their weaker tech is being hard-headed about the whole thing.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Evi on May 19, 2005, 05:26:10 PM
HD-DVD is using a Windows Media codec...so the fact that it has anything related to Windows Media makes me shun it without blinking.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Unicron! on May 19, 2005, 05:28:10 PM
Well its too early to tell as a consumer but I think the industry should adopt the Blue Ray format
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Blade on May 19, 2005, 05:29:50 PM
Blu-Ray.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Evi on May 19, 2005, 05:31:05 PM
Quote
Well its too early to tell as a consumer but I think the industry should adopt the Blue Ray format
What\'s "Blue" Ray?
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Unicron! on May 19, 2005, 05:31:54 PM
Its a...blu-ray :p
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Evi on May 19, 2005, 05:32:28 PM
Is that like a different version or something?

;)
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Unicron! on May 19, 2005, 05:34:01 PM
Nah. :p
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: THX on May 19, 2005, 05:37:32 PM
Actually both formats are mandating the use for 3 video codecs:

1) mpeg-2
2) mpeg-4 H.264
3) VC-1 (aka Microsoft Windows Media 9)

It\'s up to the studio to decide which codec will work best for their application, but expect H.264 to be the most popular.

It actually  used to be just HD-DVD that offered anything beyond mpeg-2 but Sony got wise and caved in to the multiple formats.  See competition is a good thing! :)
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Evi on May 19, 2005, 05:39:59 PM
Quote
See competition is a good thing!
Indeed it is. ;)
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Riku on May 19, 2005, 06:11:11 PM
I would like to see a merger, but since that seems unlikely then I want blu-ray to win.  

One thing is for sure though and that is I\'m not buying any Blu-Ray/HD-DVD movies until I see who comes out on top.

EDIT:  Microsoft supporting a next-gen drive in their 360 is very much a rumor, and Allard and company have gone on record about it.  They haven\'t sided with anyone because there is no standard, and it will be a while before it\'s clear which format they should put into their console.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Evi on May 19, 2005, 06:51:30 PM
Quote
They haven\'t sided with anyone because there is no standard, and it will be a while before it\'s clear which format they should put into their console.
There\'s a possibility they may not even use one at all.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Riku on May 19, 2005, 07:05:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by EviscerationX
There\'s a possibility they may not even use one at all.


They likely won\'t this fall, but Allard said don\'t count it out for the future.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Evi on May 19, 2005, 07:10:45 PM
Why would they not do it and then do it? That would piss off a lot of Xbox fans. "Mine can play HD movies and yours can\'t! Haha!"
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: mm on May 19, 2005, 07:14:53 PM
blue-ray for the win
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Riku on May 19, 2005, 07:24:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by EviscerationX
Why would they not do it and then do it? That would piss off a lot of Xbox fans. "Mine can play HD movies and yours can\'t! Haha!"


What if they went with the wrong media, and support for it dries up?  That, imo, would be more devastating then not having it at all.

Allard didn\'t comment how or when they would do it, there was nothing in the way of a definitive answer.  He only said don\'t rule it out for the future.  When is the future?  Is he talking about the successor to the Xbox 360? Is he talking about the rumored higher-end 360 due out later?
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Evi on May 19, 2005, 09:53:19 PM
Quote
What if they went with the wrong media, and support for it dries up? That, imo, would be more devastating then not having it at all.
That was my point. If they\'re not going to implement it, then they should keep it that way.

And obviously his statement is vague, I\'m not going to argue about what he meant, because I haven\'t a clue.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: QuDDus on May 20, 2005, 05:17:24 AM
Who cares I am buying this thing to play games only. There will be no games on blueray disc for ps3.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: JBean on May 20, 2005, 05:21:09 AM
Quote
Originally posted by QuDDus
Who cares I am buying this thing to play games only. There will be no games on blueray disc for ps3.


What makes you think that?

Blu-ray all the way
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: seven on May 20, 2005, 05:40:17 AM
Quddus thinks Sony is putting in an expensive Blu-Ray drive for fun and don\'t intend to use it...  lmao
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: QuDDus on May 20, 2005, 06:14:13 AM
Quote
Originally posted by seven
Quddus thinks Sony is putting in an expensive Blu-Ray drive for fun and don\'t intend to use it...  lmao


Well if sony plans to make all the games on ps3 then hey
And you never thought oh let me see sony maybe trying to push their technology on consumers???
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: QuDDus on May 20, 2005, 06:28:58 AM
Quote
Originally posted by JBean
What makes you think that?

Blu-ray all the way


Since there is no storage medium set. 9gb is more than enough for most games. Why would a developer spend X amount of money to produce a game on blueray?
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Riku on May 20, 2005, 06:34:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by QuDDus
Why would a developer spend X amount of money to produce a game on blueray?


Because it\'s cool?
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: seven on May 20, 2005, 07:00:23 AM
Quote
Since there is no storage medium set. 9gb is more than enough for most games. Why would a developer spend X amount of money to produce a game on blueray?


Because Blu-Ray offers benefits that go beyond storage capacity? (and storage capacity is a big plus)

And besides, without defining X, your argument is pretty baseless to beginn with, so why even bring it up?
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: JBean on May 20, 2005, 07:12:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by QuDDus
Since there is no storage medium set. 9gb is more than enough for most games. Why would a developer spend X amount of money to produce a game on blueray?


I think it will be like when the ps2 first came out.  Many games came out on CD-rom at first, then slowly everything was released on DVD (for the most part).  I think you\'ll see a lot of DVD games at first on ps3, then Blu-ray discs will be the norm.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: QuDDus on May 20, 2005, 07:43:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by seven

And besides, without defining X, your argument is pretty baseless to beginn with, so why even bring it up?



Umm what is your argument? Please _______________here.


Seeing how their is no storage medium set yet. And this technology is very new. Doesn\'t take much to see that it\'s not cheap.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: seven on May 20, 2005, 07:56:53 AM
My argument is that Blu-Ray will be used for games just as DVD was adopted for games this generation over CD-ROM.

Blu-Ray is an optical format, so it won\'t cost developers significantly more (if at all) than DVD at this point. It will cost more for Sony, but that isn\'t the argument and certainly doesn\'t matter to us consumers as long as the costs aren\'t passed over (which we have no reason to believe, since an adaption of Blu-Ray is an advantage to Sony and their movie industry as well).

There are a number of advantages that go for Blu-Ray over DVD:

- more storage
even if games don\'t use all the storage available, lots of that space can be used for blocks of redundant data to speed up data access and latency (data seeks are very expensive on optical media, i.e. Champions of Norath on a dual layered DVD-Rom apparently often has textures missing because of expensive data seeks).

- higher transfer rates...
...than most DVD-ROM drives. This depends though on how fast the drive will be that ships in PS3, but a 2x Blu-Ray drive should already be faster than the 12x DVD-Rom drive the Xbox360 has.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: QuDDus on May 20, 2005, 08:35:14 AM
Quote
Originally posted by seven
My argument is that Blu-Ray will be used for games just as DVD was adopted for games this generation over CD-ROM.

Blu-Ray is an optical format, so it won\'t cost developers significantly more (if at all) than DVD at this point. It will cost more for Sony, but that isn\'t the argument and certainly doesn\'t matter to us consumers as long as the costs aren\'t passed over (which we have no reason to believe, since an adaption of Blu-Ray is an advantage to Sony and their movie industry as well).

There are a number of advantages that go for Blu-Ray over DVD:

- more storage
even if games don\'t use all the storage available, lots of that space can be used for blocks of redundant data to speed up data access and latency (data seeks are very expensive on optical media, i.e. Champions of Norath on a dual layered DVD-Rom apparently often has textures missing because of expensive data seeks).

- higher transfer rates...
...than most DVD-ROM drives. This depends though on how fast the drive will be that ships in PS3, but a 2x Blu-Ray drive should already be faster than the 12x DVD-Rom drive the Xbox360 has.



I do think blueray will probably become the storage medium. There isn\'t one set yet so who knows if and when it will become top billing

Say HD-DVD was to win then what?

All I was saying is I don\'t expect to see games developed on blueray anytime soon. Will it happen probably. But since their is no storage medium set I expect to continue to see games developed on DVD.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: seven on May 20, 2005, 08:41:27 AM
Quote
Say HD-DVD was to win then what?


Then Sony will continue to push Blu-ray as the medium for games on their platform.

Games on Blu-Ray are going to be a reality, regardless which format wins the war of which will be used for movies. Lets keep this topic related to games, alright?
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Lord Nicon on May 20, 2005, 09:19:45 AM
With the extra space that blu-ray offers, not only can people utilize the extra space for storage etc. but if they really needed to, they could use a lot of the space for handling effects/textures and such in games. Im pretty sure thats how a lot of renderware works (ie GTA). A lot of things had to be streamed through the software because it was hard to do it through the hardware with the PS2\'s limited VRAM. PS3 wont necissarily have this problem but when people begin to start pushing the consoles (at least to their knowledge at the time), being able to do the same thing with the added storage on blu-ray could be an advantage.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: THX on July 15, 2005, 11:23:34 PM
Some news came out about HD-DVD.  Rather than creating a new thread...

- HD-DVD will output hi-def over HDMI ONLY.
- Analogue outputs will be downrezzed to 480p
- Mastering material is based on 1080p (no word yet on native HD-DVD res)
- At launch there will be 3 options for studios: 15Gb / 30Gb / 45Gb disks (single / dual / triple layer)
- These disk sizes translate into 4, 8, 12 hrs using MPEG-4/AVC compression.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds22406.html

Sooooo, if you see a fancy new set that catches your eye make sure it has HDMI.  Toshiba is stepping up security to appease the studios.

On one hand it screws the consumers who have an HDTV w/o HDMI.  On the other, studos will push for this more secure format and ultimately try to phase DVD out.  They hate the thought of people having perfect digital copies of their material.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: BizioEE on July 15, 2005, 11:54:11 PM
blue-ray !
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Paul2 on July 16, 2005, 12:22:22 AM
I didn\'t notice this thread...so I missed this thread and didn\'t vote before.

BTW, I just voted for Blu-Ray and was quite surprise to see all the vote goes to Blu Ray.  Horray.

Oh, something I like to point out that wasn\'t mention in this thread, Sony is working on 8 layers on Blu Ray which total out 200 GB.  I know some of you know this already, but I just thought I should mention it.  Oh, this 8 layers is also backward compatible with the current 2 and 4 layers on Blu Ray...at least, that is what i read on the internet...

Again, Blu Ray all the way.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Evi on July 16, 2005, 01:21:54 AM
Quote
Originally posted by BizioEE
blue-ray !
You mean Blu-ray!
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Living-In-Clip on July 16, 2005, 01:49:06 AM
Quote

- HD-DVD will output hi-def over HDMI ONLY


I thought this was  Toshiba thing only?


/ is content with DVD and thinks both formats are pointless .
;)
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: THX on July 16, 2005, 11:13:52 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
I thought this was  Toshiba thing only?


/ is content with DVD and thinks both formats are pointless .
;)

Ahh nice catch.  That\'s what I get for skimming over the article. ;)

DVD just like CD has served us great.  You won\'t get any complaints about that.  For now this new tech will be for the early adopters but in serveral years time when the average Joe has an HDTV maybe you\'ll start to browse through the HD-DVD/BR titles.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: NVIDIA256 on July 16, 2005, 02:08:00 PM
Just to let you know I was the one who voted for HD-dvd, not becuase I favour it over Blu-ray, I just felt HD-dvd was looking loney there in the Poll.,

BTW I prefer Blu-Ray over HD-dvd.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Blade on July 16, 2005, 02:53:18 PM
Sad. :)
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: NVIDIA256 on July 16, 2005, 03:43:19 PM
Well you wanna talk about sad, wait and see the faces of the people that buy into the losing format.:(
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Unicron! on July 16, 2005, 05:22:46 PM
Only the ones that will buy stand alone blu ray devices.


The others would be sad about the PS3 .If it fails ofcourse
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: BizioEE on July 16, 2005, 10:56:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by EviscerationX
You mean Blu-ray!


yep, and I wanted to write blue:p
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Evi on July 16, 2005, 11:00:03 PM
You wanted to write blue?

*makes an appointment for you with a psychiatrist*
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: BizioEE on July 17, 2005, 02:46:43 AM
Quote
Originally posted by EviscerationX
You wanted to write blue?

*makes an appointment for you with a psychiatrist*


relax maybe you need one...I\'ve just made a little trip with my powerful suzuki 1000, outside....relax..... :)
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Avatarr on July 17, 2005, 02:49:10 AM
well... if the blue ray laser is narrow enough to read HD-DVD, WHY NOT MAKE IT DO IT HUH!?
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Unicron! on July 17, 2005, 08:58:47 AM
Pattent rights
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Black Samurai on July 17, 2005, 09:45:57 AM
What reason is there for the average consumer to jump from DVD to Blu-Ray/HD-DVD?
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Riku on July 17, 2005, 10:04:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Black Samurai
What reason is there for the average consumer to jump from DVD to Blu-Ray/HD-DVD?


Eventually, in some years time, when high-definition broadcast have become standard and enough HD TVs have been put into living rooms, HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray will be the accepted new standard.

Right now there\'s hardly a reason at all except if you like to be at the forefront of the ever-advancing technology line.  I can\'t imagine that many average consumers are as they don\'t have the means to keep up.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: NVIDIA256 on July 17, 2005, 12:58:13 PM
Oh My 2 more votes for the HD-DVD, yay!
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: THX on July 17, 2005, 02:27:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Black Samurai
What reason is there for the average consumer to jump from DVD to Blu-Ray/HD-DVD?

The same reason the average consumer would go from PS2 to PS3.  Except with home video formats it generally takes longer.

Quote
if the blue ray laser is narrow enough to read HD-DVD, WHY NOT MAKE IT DO IT HUH!?

Pioneer may.  They\'re the kings of universal format players.  But I don\'t expect to see one any time soon (if ever even).
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: THX on July 17, 2005, 02:41:40 PM
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/16/news_6129324.html

Quote
RUMOR #3: More American game consumers favor the Blu-Ray next-generation DVD format than its rival, HD-DVD.

Source: A survey conducted by research firm Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates that popped up on Gamesindustry.biz and was republished on numerous sites, including Slashdot.

The official story: See below.

What we heard: Earlier this week GameSpot received a press release about a new survey supposedly showing the general public\'s overwhelming preference (almost 4-to-1) for Sony\'s forthcoming Blu-Ray DVD format over Toshiba\'s equally unreleased HD-DVD format. The report raised a few red flags, not the least of which is that it was sent to us by a public relations representative for the Blu-Ray Disc Association, which--it turns out--funded the study. So it\'s not surprising that the press release only summarized parts of the survey with results that favored the Blu-Ray format.

woohoo!  this format war is getting brutal already.
Title: Next gen system optical formats
Post by: Unicron! on July 17, 2005, 03:17:44 PM
Quote
Originally posted by THX
The same reason the average consumer would go from PS2 to PS3.  Except with home video formats it generally takes longer.


 
Yeah but thats positive.Since the consumer will own a Blu Ray without planning to own one at almost zero cost.