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Playstation/Gaming Discussions => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: QuDDus on June 02, 2005, 03:16:19 PM
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Excellent read on xbox360 cpu and ps3.
At any rate, Playstation 3 fanboys shouldn\'t get all flush over the idea that the Xenon will struggle on non-graphics code. However bad off Xenon will be in that department, the PS3\'s Cell will probably be worse. The Cell has only one PPE to the Xenon\'s three, which means that developers will have to cram all their game control, AI, and physics code into at most two threads that are sharing a very narrow execution core with no instruction window. (Don\'t bother suggesting that the PS3 can use its SPEs for branch-intensive code, because the SPEs lack branch prediction entirely.) Furthermore, the PS3\'s L2 is only 512K, which is half the size of the Xenon\'s L2. So the PS3 doesn\'t get much help with branches in the cache department. In short, the PS3 may fare a bit worse than the Xenon on non-graphics code, but on the upside it will probably fare a bit better on graphics code because of the seven SPEs.
In sum, the Xenon will certainly make the Xbox 360 a 3D graphics powerhouse. Though history suggests that the Xbox 360\'s games will probably never attain the level of graphical realism promised by Microsoft\'s pre-launch hype and portrayed in the pre-rendered "game demos" that were shown off at E3, gamers can nonetheless expect a significant advance in levels of graphical realism and visual immersiveness.
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360-2.ars/1
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I didn\'t understand one word of that.
I swear somewher in there the Flux Capacitor is mentioned.
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Thanks for the crappy article. But yes...hype is ghey, but so is making predictions like that years before it happens.
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"In short, the PS3 may fare a bit worse than the Xenon on non-graphics code, but on the upside it will probably fare a bit better on graphics code because of the seven SPEs."
That truelly surprised me.AI, physics etc were supposed to be one of the Cell\'s main distinctive abilities.That was totally unexpected.
Its the first time also that I see such atitude from arstechnica :confused:
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PS3 is still a baby in its development cycle and we know almost nothing about its potential and graphics/non graphics features...while XBox360 is a bit older and something more could be said....
however it\'s too early to make an accurate comparison, let\'s wait and see.....
PS : I don\'t belive all the crap tech I\'ve read since now, we have to wait unbiased developer\'s thoughts who have spent time and time on final hardware!
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^^ what he said, the ps2 / xbox hardware had all these so called gurus that had it totally wrong.. So when the final hardware is released and they have it in their hands.. i\'ve start to get more interest in it.
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Well one of the Heavenly Sword developers said that he is impressed with what he had so far from the PS3\'s unfinished specs and that the PS3 is the console to go for.
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Originally posted by BizioEE
PS3 is still a baby in its development cycle and we know almost nothing about its potential and graphics/non graphics features...while XBox360 is a bit older and something more could be said....
however it\'s too early to make an accurate comparison, let\'s wait and see.....
PS : I don\'t belive all the crap tech I\'ve read since now, we have to wait unbiased developer\'s thoughts who have spent time and time on final hardware!
The cell is done. And what this article was talking about was ps3\'s cell. The ps3 is not early in development. You don\'t think the cell chip is done?
The thing is suppose to launch in march 06. The console is done. Nvidia is suppose to start manufactoring the chips in the fall. It has to launch in march 06 with games. Umm it\'s June 05 now.
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Quddus Nostradamus eh ? :rolleyes:
:laughing:
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Originally posted by QuDDus
The cell is done. And what this article was talking about was ps3\'s cell. The ps3 is not early in development. You don\'t think the cell chip is done?
The thing is suppose to launch in march 06. The console is done. Nvidia is suppose to start manufactoring the chips in the fall. It has to launch in march 06 with games. Umm it\'s June 05 now.
No developers have PS3 final hardware in their hands, no developers spent one or two years on PS3 final hardware, no one really knows what PS3 can really do and how it compares with XBox360....
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Originally posted by EviscerationX
Thanks for the crappy article.
Ars\'s articles are on these things are amongst the best. I\'m eagerly waiting for Hannibal\'s in depth article on the cell.
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Originally posted by Knotter8
Quddus Nostradamus eh ? :rolleyes:
:laughing:
If your so smart then tell us. You expect the ps3 to be delayed?
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Originally posted by BizioEE
No developers have PS3 final hardware in their hands, no developers spent one or two years on PS3 final hardware, no one really knows what PS3 can really do and how it compares with XBox360....
Nobody knows what the graphics will looks like but based on the specs thus far you can pin point the limitation of the technology.
Thats on anything tech wise.
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Originally posted by QuDDus
Nobody knows what the graphics will looks like but based on the specs thus far you can pin point the limitation of the technology.
Thats on anything tech wise.
what he said, the ps2 / xbox hardware had all these so called gurus that had it totally wrong.. So when the final hardware is released and they have it in their hands.. i\'ve start to get more interest in it.
True but I agree with this article. No console has ever delivered graphics equal to their tech demos. I don\'t expect to see a huge jump this generation with xbox360 or ps3. While I do think these console have great technologies within them.
It won\'t be til ps4 til we see a huge graphical leap(imo)
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It is interesting that they feel graphically these next gen machines will be very good, but they will fail in AI and Physics departments.
From all that we read op to this point both were supposed to be designed to handle AI and Physics very well.
I wonder if arstechnica is using an old mindset in regards to seeing how these new console technologies will go about doing what they do.
Of course we should all be able to expect an uprgade in physics and AI this generation just based upon the muscle these machines have under the hood in comparison to this generation. The question then becomes how much improvement are developers and arstechnica expecting, and how much more of an improvement is needed in this generation ?
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I dont know the qualifications of these guys and what they know of the innerworkings of the cell (and obviously im no guru) but this is exactly like some of the things said about ps2. Though in actuality the ps2 could really keep up because it was designed specifically for its tasks more or less.
Thats not to say that the Xenon isnt but in terms of squeezing out non graphics code the only reason i can see this being a huge problem is because the games will most likely be bigger. Seeing as how these consoles are bounds better than the last gen, I dont see why "game controls, AI, and physics" have to be so much more expansive in something like GT5 compared to GT4.
Its true that if these guys are right then this could be some sort of bottleneck but for the most part the advancement in each generation is primarily one of graphical capability, which they admit the cell might have a leg up on. Of course graphics arent the main part of gaming, but with an obviously bigger tube to fit non graphical code than the last gen I dont see why the PS3 will FALL not being able to push out wads of non gfx code for AI and physics that will be semi similar to those of the last gen (to some small extent). In short, I guess the programming for the PS3 will just have to be more precise like PS2 instead of sending butt loads of wasteful code down 1 pipe.
Thinking about it, I could be very wrong and we basically have to understand what they mean exactly to really tear it appart, but from my understanding I dont 1) see why this is so much worse than PC\'s and 2) why it will hinder the PS3 to some huge extent.
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It is like saying that they\'ll make the same mistakes as current gen, but now twice as bad.
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Maybe Sony is focusing more on graphics and "special effects", but I do not think PS3 will lack in physics and AI, Sony IBM Nvidia know how to develop a balanced piece of hardware ! Sure you can\'t have anything at 100% , so it\'s possible that a console A is a monster in the graphics department and only good in AI, but I\'m not a developer, most people are not, and
I wanna wait for very reliable opinions of people who really squeeze the hardware and knows how to use "integer and floating point power" in the right way !
It should be interesting too see how the floating point and integer performance can be combined and use to have the best result in physics and AI for both console...I need the opinion(I hope unbiased:) ) of developers like Bungie, Naughty Dog, Team Ninja, Square, polyphony,
the people who made Ico ! ...for example...
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Originally posted by Knotter8
It is like saying that they\'ll make the same mistakes as current gen, but now twice as bad.
in a nutshell, that\'s what it sounds like...damn sounds like advancements in physics and AI are so small that for 5 steps they take in graphics, the AI takes like only one...:(
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Thats what i love about pcs, they\'re design PCI Physics and AI pci cards.
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AI PCI Cards? Didnt know. Thats crazy. But like i was saying earlier, I want to know how this limits the ps3 so much. I could think of one thing, and thats that maybe with the graphical advancements, more calculations on how light, gravity (physics) and all of that work with a far more complex graphical item have to be done. And I dont even know how much more extensive that is than the same thing done on the last gen.
If that isnt the case then i dont see too many reasons why AI etc has to make such a huge leap from the last gen. It always seemed to me that most of the poor AI design in other games was just due to programmer error etc rather than console limitations (im probably wong about that).
One way or another, im eager to see the outcome and untill then im not phased.
BizioEE. Im interested in their comments too but most of those devs are under the thumb of either sony or microsoft to some degree, though they may give truthful responses. Who knows.
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you\'re a design physics and pci card you fucking homo
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Originally posted by Unicron!
"In short, the PS3 may fare a bit worse than the Xenon on non-graphics code, but on the upside it will probably fare a bit better on graphics code because of the seven SPEs."
That truelly surprised me.AI, physics etc were supposed to be one of the Cell\'s main distinctive abilities.That was totally unexpected.
Its the first time also that I see such atitude from arstechnica :confused:
Dont worry, it is.
Ars is goig straight against what actual developers are saying.
AGEIA (PPU) Quote.
"We’re proud to offer AGEIA’s physics technology to help developers create compelling content for "PLAYSTATION®3", said Andy Keane, vice president of marketing for AGEIA. "PLAYSTATION®3" delivers some incredible capabilities, and our developers are energized by the opportunity to develop middleware for this powerful next-generation platform."
Marc Rein (EPIC) quote:
We\'re going to be able to do a lot of cool stuff on it (Cell). Especially great physics--the NovodeX guys are going to get their API put on it.
MR: The PlayStation 3 Cell architecture is very similar to the hardware design of the Ageia chip, so the PC will be able to get superaccelerated also. The Ageia NovodeX API, when they bring it over to the PlayStation 3, will be very fast, very powerful--similar to the Ageia [chip]. But the cool thing about that is if someone\'s lead moneymaking platform is the PlayStation 3, they\'re going physics up the wazoo because they have so much power. That makes it a very economical choice for PC users than to just pop a [physics] chip into the PC and then have the full physics effects that will be available on the PlayStation 3 or the Xbox 360.
Masayuki Chatani (SCEI CTO) quote:
The heart of PlayStation 3 is a Cell processor. A revolutionary architecture for high performance computing. The Cell is designed specifically to handle the massive floating point calc complication demand of the most complex algorithms, physics, dynamics, AI, simulation and the media processing...
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Wow...thanks for the quotes. ;)
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thanks fastson, nice reading ! ...and I was expecting that:)
"Just a few months ago no-one had heard of either AGEIA nor their specialist PhysX chip. Things are somewhat different now with the company getting a fair bit of attention in the specialist press. The company was understandably keen to point out their work on developing tools for games developers working on creating games for the PS3. "We\'re proud to offer AGEIA\'s physics technology to help developers create compelling content for Playstation 3", said Andy Keane, vice president of marketing for AGEIA. "Playstation 3 delivers some incredible capabilities, and our developers are energized by the opportunity to develop middleware for this powerful next-generation platform."
While the NovodeX software will no doubt crop up in some PS3 games in the future a number of PC developers are working with the engine on their current projects, eager to enhance the gaming experience with the physics modelling that AGEIA is able to create with its software. City of Villains, the follow-up to the wildly popular super-hero MMO, will incorporate it as its core physics engine, offering new physics-based effects and environments such as large rigid body simulations, fluids, physical particle systems and more. Snowboarding game Stoked Rider will utilise the physics software to simulate the complex physical dynamics of snowboarding, including friction behaviour, collisions and more. The game will also offer avalanche simulations that are optimized for the hardware-accelerated physics of AGEIA\'s PhysX processor."
http://www.ferrago.com/story/5774
just to reaffirm fasty\'s quote:D
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^^^ok just what does that mean?..was jumpy\'s post deleted? is that some type of expression or what? i\'ve seen this a few times and never knew what it meant....
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^^^:laughing:...see that s**t\'s not cool...you and jumpy are not gonna drive me crazy tryin to figure out what that means tho...:p
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doh!...:mad:
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To me, it looks like a pause or a post he made, then edited. or even a "if you don\'t know, i\'m not telling you" thing... so many possibilities
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i equated next gen consoles with the holocaust in a clever way but someone must be jewish and deleted it
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Originally posted by Jumpman
i equated next gen consoles with the holocaust in a clever way but someone must be jewish and deleted it
ahhh finally...:)
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aw hell not again :(.............:laughing:
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huh?
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It just means they\'re on their period.
-Dan
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seems its some kind of a new trend.
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ummm.....
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oh well if you can\'t beat them....
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. (http://www.gay.com/)
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Originally posted by cloud345
ummm.....
.?
aham...
.!
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Originally posted by JBean
. (http://www.gay.com/)
:rolleyes: :stick: :rolleyes:. (http://www.psx2central.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=35218&perpage=25&pagenumber=21)
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[sp]Hi guys. (http://itsatrap.net/)[/sp]
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[sp]What\'s up?[/sp]
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[spoiler] . [/spoiler]
*wishes he could make spoilers* :crying:
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*laughs* You don\'t know how to use the spoiler tags. Bwahahahaha!!
;)
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Hint: quote them and it will shows up...
[sp]Like this.[/sp]
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Wow...this entire page has absolutely no point to it. Fun. :thumb:
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And i had something really profound to say [sp] . [/sp]
ok maybe not
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I ll tell you a little secret: .
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Closed.......