PSX5Central
Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: Cerberus on July 07, 2005, 01:39:06 AM
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An explosion has "ripped a bus apart" just minutes after a number of blasts on London\'s Underground.
click here (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1188265,00.html)
fucking hell
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just heard on the news that 3 buses have exploded.
Dunno how much of this is dramatised or what, but still...
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God damnit. When will this all stop. This is terrible.
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6 explosions, both in buses and subway. Some reports speak of about 90 deads. More info in Euronews in live.
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Very nasty business. :(
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Al-Q shows its ugly face once again. :(
2 people have been confirmed dead thus far.
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Only two? That isn\'t that bad considering the attack. Still, a sad sight.
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This is indeed very bad. The intentions of these terrorists were no less bad than with any other terrorist attack.
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Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
Only two? That isn\'t that bad considering the attack. Still, a sad sight.
Still early. I hope there\'s not more fatalities, though. As usual, no condemnation of this attack from leaders of Muslims countries.
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I\'ve heard all sorts of wild rumours about who\'s done it.
Ranging from Al-Qaeda, to the IRA all the way to the french because they lost the olympics. Some dick heads sure as hell have a wild imagination.
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Olympics? That\'s crazy. You should slap that person.
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Some fuckwit on yahoo said that, according to her, it\'s one of the theories doing the rounds in the US.
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Indeed it seems a smaller branch of Al Q has indicated it was responsible for the attack......
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CNN reporting fatalilties in the double digits, with injured around 160 or so......
God damn those crazy fucking people.
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Belongs in Current Events. Another reason Muslims should be deported from all western nations. Sorry, but it is impossible to find every sleeper cell and stuff like this going to happen regardless of how prepared you are.
Solution: Deport them.
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Hey...Japanese Concentration Camps....again? No thanks. The Muslims need to step up and help and stop their extremist brothers.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Belongs in Current Events. Another reason Muslims should be deported from all western nations. Sorry, but it is impossible to find every sleeper cell and stuff like this going to happen regardless of how prepared you are.
Solution: Deport them.
Nah, you can\'t tar and feather them all with the same brush, I know a couple of muslims, and they are some of the nicest people you could ever meet.
They deplore these acts of terrorism as much as you and me. It\'s not the muslim faith that\'s at fault here, it\'s the extremists that are using it as an excuse to do this stuff.
Christianity has been used for the same purposes in the past.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Solution: Deport them.
That\'s absurd. There will always be rotten apples amongst any group, in this case extremist Muslims who stoop to terrorism.
But the key to succes is integration. Yes, it is a longterm proces which takes time and effort. Deporting them all at once becuz one cell did damage again sounds too much like Auschwitz.
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Originally posted by Knotter8
That\'s absurd. There will always be rotten apples amongst any group, in this case extremist Muslims who stoop to terrorism.
But the key to succes is integration. Yes, it is a longterm proces which takes time and effort. Deporting them all at once becuz one cell did damage again sounds too much like Auschwitz.
Deporting them back to their own country is like Auschwitz? Learn your history.
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
Hey...Japanese Concentration Camps....again? No thanks. The Muslims need to step up and help and stop their extremist brothers.
Won\'t happen.
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You took it too literally. It\'s about the thought behind \'deportation\'.
I mean, why would they wanna come to the Europe/Western world in the first place ? To build up a better life and work there.
Yes.
You can\'t assume by default that they\'re just coming over to cause havoc or to parasite.
Like I said ; keep the guys in who respect western laws and civilization and contribute their share to a good community and kick out the ones who don\'t.
Deporting them all back is too rigorous.
(..and yes I know Auschwitz was deportation to extermination which most probably not what you meant with deportation. Sorry if it seemed that way. Never my intention to literally imply such a thing)
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So, all our English friends here are safe? God I hope so. Sad when you can\'t even do everyday things like ride a bus, without worrying.
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Originally posted by Knotter8
You took it too literally. It\'s about the thought behind \'deportation\'.
I mean, why would they wanna come to the Europe/Western world in the first place ? To build up a better life and work there.
Yes.
You can\'t assume by default that they\'re just coming over to cause havoc or to parasite.
Like I said ; keep the guys in who respect western laws and civilization and contribute their share to a good community and kick out the ones who don\'t.
Deporting them all back is too rigorous.
The problem is these fundamentalist clerics that run around in both the US and UK who spout hatred for the west and both governments don\'t have the balls to kick them out. Without these people inciting others to join the "jihad" that might work.
The other problem is a lot of these people are sleepers and are very hard to pinpoint. They act normal and nice, but underneath they are just waiting for the order to martyr themselves.
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I can\'t think of one Muslim leader that has stepped up and preached peace and for extremists to back down. I don\'t know any and the media would just love to put a mic to his/her mouth coz this is something they\'ve been looking for.
It\'s been all rhetoric from the Western leaders.....extremists won\'t listen to us. Maybe they\'ll listen to Mubarak...or SOME Muslim leader that\'s brave enough.
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Yeah, but here in NL in recent years, the authorities had several succes cases by wrapping up such extremists. They got kicked out accordingly.
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Originally posted by guar
So, all our English friends here are safe? God I hope so. Sad when you can\'t even do everyday things like ride a bus, without worrying.
I\'m not anywhere near london, so yeah, I\'m 100% ok. I don\'t know of anyone who is from london here, but I\'m sure there are a couple.
The fact that I\'m nowhere near it doesn\'t make it any less worrying. There were reports of an attack being planned for london over 12 months ago, but they didn\'t know where and when. And because of that, you just don\'t know where else will be targetted next. I still remember the attack on manchester in 1996 by the IRA. I was actually in the part of the city that was hit about an hour before the bomb went off, and had I missed my bus that day, I\'d have probably been caught up in it.
When I got home it was on the news, I saw the street I walked down to get to the bus.
It\'s pretty firghtening when you live close to a big city, because you know that places like that are going to be a potential target.
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[Quote[
Belongs in Current Events. Another reason Muslims should be deported from all western nations. Sorry, but it is impossible to find every sleeper cell and stuff like this going to happen regardless of how prepared you are.
Solution: Deport them.[/Quote]
So very closed minded. By that note, African American\'s are more likely to be drug users and commit sexual crimes, do you recommend we deport them all also? You cannot hold a grudge against a whole religion / nation / gender / group, simply because some are radicals. It\'s insane.
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Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
So very closed minded. By that note, African American\'s are more likely to be drug users and commit sexual crimes, do you recommend we deport them all also? You cannot hold a grudge against a whole religion / nation / gender / group, simply because some are radicals. It\'s insane.
Nope you are mixing apples and oranges. This is a war which some you have still failed to realize and I do hold a grudge against worshippers of Islam. As Gman said where are the leaders of this religion condemning this and denouncing it in earnest? This isn\'t a religion of peace. It is a religion of violence and hatred.
Comparing it to drug abusers is reaching. We have been hearing for years that this isn\'t what a majority who worship Islam are about... well, where the fuck are they - this so called silent majority who seem to turn their head when things like this happen. Where is their leadership to condemn and hold these people accountable?
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And what\'s President Bush\'s response?
"We will not yield to terrorists. We will find them and bring them to justice."
--USAToday
Wow, that sounds like what you said after 9/11 Mr. Bush. Looks like your plan has worked real well, eh?
Guess its time to use this as an excuse to go and invade another country! Whose next? Syria? Iran? Who wants some warfare??
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Originally posted by Ghettomath
And what\'s President Bush\'s response?
"We will not yield to terrorists. We will find them and bring them to justice."
--USAToday
Wow, that sounds like what you said after 9/11 Mr. Bush. Looks like your plan has worked real well, eh?
Guess its time to use this as an excuse to go and invade another country! Whose next? Syria? Iran? Who wants some warfare??
What is your plan? Withdraw our troops, hand over the Middle East to Islamic fundamentalism? Give them the message that we are weak and can\'t stand up to terrorists Ghetto? Wouldn\'t that encourage them to make further terror attacks to get what they wanted? This is war for the 100th time - get it through your thick head. They succeeded in Spain and now they are trying the same in the UK. If Spain wouldn\'t have backed down this might not have happened as it would have shown them that terrorism will not intimidate a government or its people.
In reality, Bush\'s plan has worked for the US has it not? I suppose you are now blaming Bush for what has happened in London? I didn\'t know the UK fell under the Department of Homeland Security\'s jurisdiction.
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As for your appeasement approach Ghetto - it doesn\'t work. Case in point:
Telegraph.co.uk
(Filed: 13/03/2005)
Excerpt:
Ken Livingstone, the London Mayor, has hit out at the new anti-terror laws, saying people were at more risk from bird flu than al-Qa\'eda.
Tony Blair and his Cabinet colleagues argue the unprecedented threat from Islamic fanatics justifies the introduction of control orders for suspects who cannot be tried.
But Mr Livingstone said there was no prospect of a second September 11 and the danger was now less than during the IRA\'s heyday.
And the mayor, who was readmitted to the Labour Party last year, said if he was still an MP he would have voted against the new measures.
The current terror threat was "a bit less than the threat we had during the IRA", he told BBC1\'s Breakfast with Frost.
"There is always the danger that we will fail and someone will get through," he continued.
"We do not believe there is the chance of another September 11...
"The danger comes from two or three disaffected men doing something more like a car bomb ..... we are more at risk of dying from bird flu than we are from being blown up by any terrorist."
...
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/03/13/uterror.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/03/13/ixportaltop.html
I guess Ken\'s anti Iraq/anti Bush sentiments didn\'t insulate his city from an attack. This fool even argued that if he were still an MP he would have voted against tougher anti terror measures.
Anyone else hear his new tune this morning?
Yahoo News/Associated Press
1 hour, 35 minutes ago
By YEOH EN-LAI, Associated Press Writer
Excerpt:
SINGAPORE - London Mayor Ken Livingstone said the blasts that ripped through his city Thursday were "mass murder" carried out by terrorists bent on "indiscriminate ... slaughter."
Livingstone, in Singapore where he supported London\'s successful bid to host the 2012 Olympics, was rushing back to London after the simultaneous blasts in London\'s subway network and a double-decker bus, causing deaths and hundreds of injuries.
"I want to say one thing: This was not a terrorist attack against the mighty or the powerful, it is not aimed at presidents or prime ministers, it was aimed at ordinary working-class Londoners," Livingstone told reporters.
"That isn\'t an ideology, it isn\'t even a perverted faith, it\'s mass murder," Livingstone said. "We know what the objective is. They seek to divide London."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050707/ap_on_re_eu/britain_explosions_livingstone/nc:732;_ylt=Ai0axFhSGbA38uGO_IfprNZ0bBAF;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
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Lastly - I should have said this before, but certain dingbats distracted me. I hope all of our members over in the UK are safe and our thoughts are with you. This also reminds me of another one of Winston Churchill\'s speeches in 1938:
"Do not suppose that this is the end. This is only the beginning of the reckoning. This is only the first sip, the first foretaste of a bitter cup which will be proffered to us year by year unless by a supreme recovery of moral health and martial vigour, we arise again and take our stand for freedom as in the olden time."
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Scary... I feel it getting closer. First Madrid, now London. I wonder when we\'ll get hit.
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Oh cry me a river that Muslim is a religion of "war". For christ sake (pun intended) all religions are. What starts wars? Religion.
What is your plan? Withdraw our troops, hand over the Middle East to Islamic fundamentalism? Give them the message that we are weak and can\'t stand up to terrorists Ghetto? Wouldn\'t that encourage them to make further terror attacks to get what they wanted? This is war for the 100th time - get it through your thick head. They succeeded in Spain and now they are trying the same in the UK. If Spain wouldn\'t have backed down this might not have happened as it would have shown them that terrorism will not intimidate a government or its people.
In reality, Bush\'s plan has worked for the US has it not? I suppose you are now blaming Bush for what has happened in London? I didn\'t know the UK fell under the Department of Homeland Security\'s jurisdiction.
Why not? Let them have a small third world country. Whoopie doo. Then again, I say why bother worrying about a dictator over there? If he wants to torture his people, big deal.
I say, withdraw troops, let them car bomb each other to death and move on. This war is pointless. There will always be terrorist, Muslim or not.
And you are in no position to call anyone a dingbat, if you disagree, that\'s fine. Voice your opinion, but act like an adult. Don\'t start throwing insults, like a three year old child. It\'s not only in poor taste, but it makes your argument look weak.
Oh and to quote the forum guidelines........
Keep things civil in here. Blatant insults directed at others for any reason won\'t be tolerated.
This applies to everyone, most importantly you, as a moderator. I can understand jabs and insults to other members in other sections of the forum, but when talking about something as serious as politics, then these insults not only distract, but make it all seem childish and trivial.
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I\'m betting 99% of all muslims in England are peace-keeping non-extremist citizens. Wouldn\'t make sense to deport them all.
Giga I suggest you get a mid-eastern friend and see how cool they can be. Then you can smell like curry like the rest of us.
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I have some family in Europe, and some of them happened to be in London at the time of the explosions
They called on their cellphone early yesterday mourning saying they just heard a loud explosion and told us to check the news to see what was happening. We tried to call them back but couldnt get through, too much cell phone traffic.
Well, when I got off of work I was informed that they called back. They had been on the subway 15 minutes before the explosion. Whether it was on the same train that got hit I dont know. I didnt get alot of details just know they had to walk 5 miles back to the hotel because all of the transportation was shut down. God is with them
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To LIC since you can\'t seem to understand the ramifications of leaving Iraq:
The great British mathematician Alfred North Whitehead once wrote, "It requires a very unusual mind to undertake the analysis of the obvious." Some Chinese believe that Osama bin Laden has such a mind. Although bin Laden and his minions are plotting the current terror war against the United States, the Chinese – in their quest to create a multipolar world – may have written the book on terrorism…literally.
From the collapse of the Soviet Union and the U.S. victory in the first Gulf War, political leaders and military strategists drew two obvious conclusions. The United States could not be defeated militarily, and any nation that sought to achieve military parity with the U.S. would, like the former Soviet Union, bankrupt itself in the attempt.
To the leaders of China, France, Germany and Russia, a unipolar world with the United States as the world’s only superpower is an unappealing long-term prospect. Jacques Chirac who believes that France’s mission is to shape "the destiny of the world" has been the most vocal proponent of "a world where political, economic and cultural influence" is shared. He envisions a united Europe led by France and Germany (with Germany the junior partner) as one of the centers of power in a multipolar world. Vladimir Putin and Hu Jintao also see multipolarity as the means to eliminating U.S. dominance. However, becoming a "pole" that rivals the United States is easier said than done.
The French and German economies are hobbled by excessive regulation, and in the case of Germany the burden of reintegration with the former East Germany. The Russian economy suffers from governmental interference, bureaucratic bungling and official corruption leftover from the U.S.SR. Only China is growing economically at a faster pace than the United States. But even with its burgeoning economy, overtaking the U.S. is a very long-term proposition.
China has an added incentive for wanting to see U.S. power weakened, the possibility that a declaration of independence by Taiwan could lead to armed conflict. Jiang Zemin, in July 1999, said that he realized that at some point China would have to fight the American wolf, but for now the wolf was too strong, and so the right course for China was to continue to court American business and investment and increase exports to the U.S. China needed to "dance with the wolf" in order to build a strong economy.
In recent years a number of articles and books have been written by Chinese military analysts wrestling with the problem of how to win a war against a seemingly invincible United States. Only one of these has received attention by the mainstream American press. Chaoxian Zhan (Unrestricted War) proposed a total war approach to defeating the U.S. that was praised by China’s highest ranking officers. In their war fighting methodology, the authors (Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui) included the possible use of biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons. Western journalists, unable to read Chinese, drew their news reports from an English summary of the book that focused on the weapons of mass destruction and missed the most important point. Osama bin Laden had analyzed the obvious and concluded that while the United States could not be defeated by a foreign power, Americans could be induced to defeat themselves.
In Unrestricted War, Osama bin Laden is the prototype for the "new terrorist." He has acquired capital, technical expertise and access to weapons by taking advantage of the "loopholes in the free economies of the West." (Bin Laden has boasted that his followers understand Western financial systems as well as they know the backs of their hands.) The ease with which his organization has been able to raise funds coupled with his skillful use of religious organizations and the media to gain recruits to his cause has guaranteed a ready supply of men and weaponry to carry out his attacks.
According to Qiao and Wang, the new terrorists are not restrained by "international law, behavioral norms and ethical principles…Because they operate secretly, are well concealed, and cause widespread damage, their attacks …seem uncommonly cruel. All of which when it is broadcast in real time by the round the clock coverage of the modern media further strengthens the effects of their terrorist acts." Defeating the new terrorists is difficult because a nation "which follows certain rules and will only use limited force to achieve limited goals" is at a distinct disadvantage against organizations "which do not observe any rules and are unafraid to fight an unlimited war using unlimited means." Terrorist groups rely on the fact that even though they are fighting a technologically and numerically superior enemy, the nature of their attacks provides insufficient justification for the enemy to make full use of its superiority. The new terrorists are like rats with very sharp teeth and excellent survival skills. Like rats, they strike quickly and then duck back into their holes. However, whereas rat-infested habitats can be destroyed, terrorists conceal themselves among civilian populations and any massive military retaliation is certain to result in the loss of innocent lives. When you kill innocent civilians you are condemned by the media, human rights groups and the nations most closely allied to you.
Prior to 9/11 the U.S. response to each terrorist attack had been predictable. When the Khobar Towers were bombed in 1996, President Clinton said, "The cowards who committed this murderous act must not go unpunished." He responded to the attacks on our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, by calling terrorist acts "abhorrent and inhuman" and promising to "use all means at our disposal to bring those responsible to justice." After the U.S.S Cole was attacked in 2000, he warned the terrorists, "You will not find a safe harbor. We will find you, and justice will prevail."
Only after the embassy bombings did he authorize military action, a missile strike against terrorist training camps in Afghanistan and a suspected chemical weapons plant in Sudan. The argument has been made that surgical strikes that limit collateral damage are less likely to result in a negative reaction by the American people. Lieutenant General Paul Van Riper, U.S.MC, and Major General Robert Scales, U.S.A, believe that one of the lessons of the first Gulf War is that when our nation’s leaders think that the American people are unprepared to deal with the carnage of war, "psychological revulsion" becomes a powerful weapon in the enemy’s arsenal especially when that weapon is unwittingly wielded by our own media.
By the time bin Laden laid the plans for his 9/11 surprise, he could feel fairly certain of two things: The U.S. would continue to view terrorists as criminals rather than as enemy combatants engaged in a war against the United States, and even when military power was brought to bear by launching missiles at suspected terrorist hideouts, the mission would be undertaken in the name of law enforcement, not as an act of war.
The Bush administration’s invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq in response to 9/11 caught bin Laden by surprise, and invalidated his hypothesis about the willingness of the U.S. to use military power to destroy terrorist bases and training camps, and to change the regimes of nations that harbored and supported terrorist organizations. However, bin Laden has reason to believe that our military response will be undermined from the inside.
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Part II:
Many of the people educating America’s children today came of age during the protests against the Vietnam War, and by and large believe that all war is wrong. The Association for Childhood Education International (ACEI), established in 1892, is the oldest professional association of its type in the United States. Its executive director considers the presence of U.S. forces in Iraq "profoundly sad and most unfortunate." ACEI takes the position that "a vital way to prevent war and bring about peace is to raise a generation of children who reject killing as uncivilized and as a barbaric, unproductive way to deal with human conflicts." While ACEI’s bold statement stands in sharp contrast to that of the other associations of American educators, which implicitly sanction antiwar teachings under the mantle of academic freedom of expression, the most widely held view is that "peace education" is the "natural role" for America’s teachers at every level from pre-kindergarten through graduate school.
And peace education seems to be working. The Army and the Marine Corps are failing to meet their recruiting goals. The head of the Army Recruiting Command, referring to enlistment projections as "not a bright picture," calls it "the toughest recruiting climate ever faced by the all-volunteer army." The Army is so desperate to sign up new recruits that it has begun offering 15-month active-duty enlistments. However, such a short enlistment will almost certainly mean reduced training time and lowered unit cohesiveness, which will inevitably result in greater numbers of U.S. casualties.
During the Korean War, Joseph Stalin told Zhou Enlai that the United States had "lost the capability to wage a large-scale war." Mao Zedong also believed that Americans "cannot stand wars." In his declaration of war against the United States, bin Laden cited Reagan’s withdrawal of the Marines from Beirut in 1983 after 241 were killed in a suicide bombing, and Clinton’s withdrawal from Somalia "when tens of your soldiers were killed in minor battles and one American pilot was dragged through the streets of Mogadishu" as examples of American "impotence and weakness." Qiao and Wang believe that "CNN’s broadcast of an American soldier’s exposed corpse on the streets of Mogadishu" was all that was needed to "shake American determination."
The Koran teaches that "Allah is with those who patiently persevere." Osama bin Laden believes that if he can just keep killing Americans, the nightly news images of dead and wounded, the rising casualty count and the faces of young soldiers killed in action will take their toll on the American people. The 2004 election was so close that he has every reason to hope that next time the U.S. will elect a president who will end large-scale military operations and return to the practice followed by the Clinton administration of responding to terrorist acts by trying to bring the individuals responsible to justice. When that happens, Osama bin Laden is convinced that we will be forced to withdraw from the Middle East as Clinton did from Somalia, "carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat, and your dead with you."
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=18091
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Giga before you post another long article, I think LIC was talking about Iraq, not Afghanistan.
Which ties in with my point that these attacks in London might not have happened if our focus had been on Afghanistan and not on Iraq since September 11th.
Giga, you said that the America is more safe now than it was since September 11th happened, but aren\'t you forgetting that this war has been dubbed (by dubyew) as the "Global War on Terror?" To say that America is safer, and that the war on terror has suceeded would be selfish in regards to all other nations. Europe, clearly is not safer than it once was before 9/11.
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P.S. http://www.frontpagemag.com is an openly conservative publication.
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it\'s extremly right-wing... but nearly every article that backs up Giga is
kinds tells you something about him dosen\'t it
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Give him credit, he mastered the art of copying & pasting.
;)
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Do you really think deporting will help? If anything it would probably multiply the number of terrorists.
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Originally posted by Halberto
Do you really think deporting will help?
Not really. I think in this sort of situation, prevention is much better than the cure. We have to try to stop them getting in in the first place.
The ones that have a right to be here, deserve their place, the ones that sneak in as part of mass groups of refugees in the back of trucks without any identification should be kicked back out, and the only way that will happen, is if the authorities responsible for processing all incoming traffic, clamp down on it.
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Originally posted by Cerberus
Not really. I think in this sort of situation, prevention is much better than the cure. We have to try to stop them getting in in the first place.
The ones that have a right to be here, deserve their place, the ones that sneak in as part of mass groups of refugees in the back of trucks without any identification should be kicked back out, and the only way that will happen, is if the authorities responsible for processing all incoming traffic, clamp down on it.
That\'s almost every single Mexican in America.......
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I keep hearing on the news here that the UK is much more liberal about letting fanatic Islam churches exist on their shores. They let them preach certain messages about violence \'n such.
Any truth to that?
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Giga, I agree with you a lot of times with your arguments with mystiq, but this time you couldnt be more wrong.
The ideas your bringin up here are racist and comepletely ignorant. Our country is built on the belief that everyone is equal. Good and bad, dark or light, christian, muslim, jewish or whatever. You speak about supporting your country and being patriotic but yet you forget what our country\'s foundations are.
You see all the bad sides to the worshipers of Islam because of these attacks but the population you hear about is in the minority of Islamic followers. It\'s just that people don\'t get put on t.v. for being good and being american, so you only see the bad side. I have a friend who is muslim and he is one of the nicest people I know.
You can\'t just base your opinion on a group of people just by the bad things you see on t.v.
If we were to deport all muslims in this country it could lead to wars with countries that have muslims in the majority such as Iran or we could lose allies such as afghanistan or other muslim nations.
The thing that makes this country so great is the tolerance we have. Tolerance is part of the American culture, and to get rid of it would not solve anything. There will always be acts of terrorism but everytime it happens you cant say to deport eveyone who could possibly be a terrorist.
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Wow, what bullshit. This is what irks me about people spouting off crap from an ivory tower. All I have to do to send the notion of absolute deportation to the bottom of my mind is to envision MYSELF in a situation in which I am thrust out of this country and torn away from my family for crimes I did not commit. It doesn\'t matter that I was born in this country, that I am a citizen, and that I did honest work to send my children to college. Just because of the fact I am Muslim and someone else\'s skewed perception, I might be deported to a society that I have never been acclimate to and have all my dreams snatched out from me unjustly. Put yourself in the shoes of those you disparage blindly, Giga.
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Seems the attacks were made by suicide bombers after all.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050713/ap_on_re_eu/britain_bombings;_ylt=AqyTjyjBWT38wP6bpFrfpoas0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-
One was as young as 19 years!
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Originally posted by hyper
Wow, what bullshit. This is what irks me about people spouting off crap from an ivory tower. All I have to do to send the notion of absolute deportation to the bottom of my mind is to envision MYSELF in a situation in which I am thrust out of this country and torn away from my family for crimes I did not commit. It doesn\'t matter that I was born in this country, that I am a citizen, and that I did honest work to send my children to college. Just because of the fact I am Muslim and someone else\'s skewed perception, I might be deported to a society that I have never been acclimate to and have all my dreams snatched out from me unjustly. Put yourself in the shoes of those you disparage blindly, Giga.
Instead of condemning the attacks - you attack me. Go figure... Your religion is the problem and you are a symptom of it. If you are so moderate where is your outrage over these attacks???? That should have been your first post here - instead you cry about me wanting to deport Muslims.
I also disagree with those in our government and country who say we shouldn\'t racially profile in regards to terrorism. The truth is if I am on a plane with someone of Arab decent I am going to watching them more closely than any of the other passengers. One would be a fool not to do so. It would be like the FBI watching black people for Mafia related activity. Absurd.
Cloud - War with Iran is inevitable. The people lie and break promises left and right. I fear when all is said and done - it will take an extreme measure to make these Islamic governments understand we are not playing around and we can fight fire with fire.
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Giga, I do believe hyper is Korean. And his reply was a hypothetical situation in first person.
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
Giga, I do believe hyper is Korean. And his reply was a hypothetical situation in first person.
If he isn\'t Muslim then he shouldn\'t claim he is or make it clear he is giving an example.
In any case it will just be a matter of time before the nuts do some real damage somewhere and the cries to make Islam extinct will grow louder.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
the cries to make Islam extinct will grow louder.
Yeah ... like thats going to help.
:rolleyes:
Something tells me that banning a religion or religon(s) ...isn\'t going to cut it with the type of nut that straps some explosive to him/herself.
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It\'s not that religion ruins humans....it\'s humans that ruin religion. We always always always find a way to take a good thing and fuc it up beyond repair.
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True.
but in this case we have to build greater bridges between us (brits) and the Islamic community.
Alienation is just one ofthe breeding gounds for these nut jobs to grow.
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damn giga,...i feel where you\'re comin from bro, and i know this s**t pisses you off, but what you\'re sayin as far as just deportin everybody isn\'t the solution. it\'s true that whenever these terrorist acts happen, NOBODY from the muslim faith comes out and condems it or anything. but that is only because "terrorism" is not a country, and there is no one person representing islam..... these people that are doing this are using the muslim faith to support their own twisted philosophy...
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Originally posted by clips
... NOBODY from the muslim faith comes out and condems it or anything....
Actually, several did.
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Originally posted by Cerberus
Actually, several did.
Were they leaders of Muslim countries? No? Oh...well...
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
Were they leaders of Muslim countries? No? Oh...well...
No, they are not going to shit on their own doorstep, are they?
I was referring to muslims within the UK, muslims who hold clerical positions
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Originally posted by Cerberus
No, they are not going to shit on their own doorstep, are they?
I was referring to muslims within the UK, muslims who hold clerical positions
They (leaders) ought to.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
The truth is if I am on a plane with someone of Arab decent I am going to watching them more closely than any of the other passengers. One would be a fool not to do so.
No Giga, one would be a racist to do so. When you go into the city, do you watch all black people closely because you think you are going to get robbed?
If I were you I would stop trying to defend the ignorant deportation statement you made and just stop posting in this thread. You\'ve done enough to discredit yourself already.
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Originally posted by Ghettomath
No Giga, one would be a racist to do so. When you go into the city, do you watch all black people closely because you think you are going to get robbed?
If I were you I would stop trying to defend the ignorant deportation statement you made and just stop posting in this thread. You\'ve done enough to discredit yourself already.
Don\'t be so naive. The idiots that have done all of these acts have been from the Middle East or of Middle Eastern decent. Why don\'t you grow some and stop being so politically correct. Of course we should watch people from the Middle East more closely - we would be foolish not to.
Profiling is essential when gathering information on suspects regarding certain crimes. If the government is investigating organized crime - watch the Italians or Russians. If you are looking for Islamic terrorists - watch people from the Middle East.
Take the case in Howard Beach recently where some Italian guys beat up some black guys. The mayor of NY along with the police department were quick to label it a "hate crime". The thing the media didn\'t publicize that much was the fact that these black guys were there to steal a car. Sorry, but they picked the wrong neighborhood to pull off a crime. Now if some white guys are in a black neighborhood at 3AM they are only there for one thing - drugs. Suppose they get beat up by some blacks - I seriously doubt it would be labeled as a hate crime, but that is entirely different subject. This is about profiling and it can be applied to both of the previous examples. Black guys in a white neighborhood at 3 AM are trying to steal something. White guys in a black neighborhood at 3 AM are buying drugs. Profiling. It works.
Political correctness is out of control and people like you who think it is racist to profile terror suspects should get a mandatory labotomy.
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
They (leaders) ought to.
It isn\'t the political leaders it is the so called clerics who preach this hatred. Obviously the ones in the UK will condemn it - they don\'t want to be lynched. Outside of Europe where are the condemnations from these "Holy" men?
Where is the silent majority of Islam when this kind of thing happens? What is going to take for these people to speak up? Apparently these latest bombers were homegrown - and most of you think deportation is a bad idea... :rolleyes:
I say deport any cleric who spouts hate and terror and deport his congregation as well. That would be a step in the right direction.
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Originally posted by Ghettomath
No Giga, one would be a racist to do so. When you go into the city, do you watch all black people closely because you think you are going to get robbed?
Get over this PC bullshit. I work in a liquor store and every person we\'ve caught stealing was black. Through watching videotapes and just walking around the store it\'s always a black person but you\'re telling me for watching blacks more closely I\'m racist. :rolleyes:
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Racial profiling is neccessary in some cases but deporting them is not neccessary.
Too say that most acts of terrorism in western society is committed by people of middle eastern descent would be stupid. But you can\'t just say because an extremely small minority of people make terrorist attacks that we need to deport the whole race or religion.
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i think if there were to be another terrorist attack it would most likely be of someone of middle eastern decent. it\'s not bein racist it\'s just using common sense, especially in this day and age i would have to say that chances of the individual being middle eastern would be 95%....of course you have to be careful when sayin stuff like that tho, because many thought that oklahoma city bombing was terrorists of middle eastern decent and they weren\'t even close....
it was a group of white males part of some crazed militia group...
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Instead of condemning the attacks - you attack me. Go figure... Your religion is the problem and you are a symptom of it. If you are so moderate where is your outrage over these attacks???? That should have been your first post here - instead you cry about me wanting to deport Muslims.
I also disagree with those in our government and country who say we shouldn\'t racially profile in regards to terrorism. The truth is if I am on a plane with someone of Arab decent I am going to watching them more closely than any of the other passengers. One would be a fool not to do so. It would be like the FBI watching black people for Mafia related activity. Absurd.
The Lord\'s Resistance Army in Uganda rapes, mutiliates, and massacres "in the name of God." The Ku Klux Klan uses Christianity to justify oppression and racism. The Salem Witch Trials and the Inquisition claimed the lives of many innocents under the guise of rooting out heresy.
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God\'s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
"In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison."
-Adolph Hitler, in a speech delivered April 12, 1922 Published in "My New Order" Quoted in "Freethought Today" April 1990.
Do you see my point? All religions have extremists. This does not mean that the religions themselves are at fault. Whether it be Christianity or Islam, extremists merely skew religion to serve their own ends. Are we to eradicate Christianity and deport all Christians because of the lunacy of a few sick minds?
I do agree with you, Giga, in that Islam is MISGUIDED. However, Islam itself is NOT to blame. You forget that from the 7th to 11th centuries, the world saw one of history\'s greatest flowerings of art, science, and architecture under Islam. It was Muslim scholars who revived the works of the Greeks that later made the Renaissance possible. Intellectuals from distant lands gathered in Baghdad to study and discuss philosophy and medicine. Pick up a copy of A Thousand and One Nights (though I have only read the abridged version myself) to read about the wonders of that city. And for a time, people of all religions were tolerated and women had many more rights than their European counterparts. I have read that in the Koran, Christ and his apostles are held in nearly the same positions of honor that they hold in the Bible and that Mary is revered as the highest woman to have ever lived. Clearly, Islam is capable of greatness and also shares many similarities with Christianity. The only reason why Islam is in the state it is now is because of a rise in fundamentalism that accompanied centuries of corruption, war, and economic stagnation. Actually, this should be a good read for you.
Here you go:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/waronterrorism/story/0,1373,564700,00.html
I also agree with you, Giga, that it would be moronic to completely ignore Arabs. When I go to the airport and see Arabs in traditional garb, I can\'t help but feel apprehensive. As a possible victim of terrorism, I sometimes feel paranoid and helpless when I realize that future perpetrators may be my next door neighbors. What if I or my mother died of a terrorist attack? Would I still maintain this understanding if I were disabled because a zealot decided it would be right to take my life to further his misguided cause? But on the flip side, if I were Muslim, I would be overcome with sadness and anger if I were punished for the religious extremism of those completely unrelated to me. You say deport them all? Why go to that trouble? Why not hound them up and kill them? If American Muslims were deported to the Middle East, their likelihood of being free from misery, of being accepted into society, and even of holding on to their lives is small anyway. So yes, let\'s kill them all.
That would be the easy, but WRONG, way out. As I said before, not all Muslims are extremists. I don\'t claim to have many Muslim friends, but those I know from the hospital I volunteer in have all condemned the September 11 attacks and will surely condemn the London bombings. This country is founded on compromises, and we must not pander to one side of the spectrum. Yes, absolute deportation would greatly relieve the American mother who worries about her children being torn to bits by a Muslim suicidal attack. However, it would be unjust and greatly harm the many honest working Muslims in this country. Compromise and reconcile; as long as these extremists exist, Muslims will have to deal with being scrutinized, but Americans must also be willing to sympathize with the plight of victims on BOTH sides of the war.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Don\'t be so naive. The idiots that have done all of these acts have been from the Middle East or of Middle Eastern decent. Why don\'t you grow some and stop being so politically correct. Of course we should watch people from the Middle East more closely - we would be foolish not to.
Profiling is essential when gathering information on suspects regarding certain crimes. If the government is investigating organized crime - watch the Italians or Russians. If you are looking for Islamic terrorists - watch people from the Middle East.
Take the case in Howard Beach recently where some Italian guys beat up some black guys. The mayor of NY along with the police department were quick to label it a "hate crime". The thing the media didn\'t publicize that much was the fact that these black guys were there to steal a car. Sorry, but they picked the wrong neighborhood to pull off a crime. Now if some white guys are in a black neighborhood at 3AM they are only there for one thing - drugs. Suppose they get beat up by some blacks - I seriously doubt it would be labeled as a hate crime, but that is entirely different subject. This is about profiling and it can be applied to both of the previous examples. Black guys in a white neighborhood at 3 AM are trying to steal something. White guys in a black neighborhood at 3 AM are buying drugs. Profiling. It works.
Political correctness is out of control and people like you who think it is racist to profile terror suspects should get a mandatory labotomy.
Why don\'t you "grow some" and look beyond your own narrow minded view?? Do you honestly think that if you deport them, there won\'t be more terrorist attacks? That\'s the most idiotic thing I have ever had the displeasure of reading on this forum. It has started. There is no turning back. If you use racial profiling to deport them / watch them, guess what? There will always be more than enough willing WHITE AMERICAN\'S who are radical muslims in hiding, that will take up the war of terror. What do you suppose we do then?
Remember this, before 9/11, when was the last big attack in the United States? Who done it? It was a White All American boy. Terrorism is not limited to radical muslims and deporting muslims in general will not stop anything.
Once again, I must point how, how I think it is pathetic that you can\'t even host a civil debate. You always have to take jabs at the members for no reason, other than you disagree with them. If you get that up in arms about it and disagree with us so bad, maybe you shouldn\'t post. At least until you can be civil about the matter.
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Deporting these people won\'t help any situation. Not to mention the majority of them here in the US haven\'t done anything to contribute to terrorism. But I do agree with Giga, if I\'m on a plane and there is a man of middle eastern decent, you bet your sweet ass I will be watching him more closely. It\'s not about being a racist or anything, it\'s about humans and human nature. Just because I\'m using common sense, doesn\'t make me a racist or ignorant. You gotta look out for number 1, that\'s the bottom line.
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Haha, in that case, I\'m going to learn Farsi just to freak people out. ^_^
AL AKBAR HABIBIBI!!!!
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Derka derka derka, Muhammed Jihad.
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best movie evar
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Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
Why don\'t you "grow some" and look beyond your own narrow minded view?? Do you honestly think that if you deport them, there won\'t be more terrorist attacks? That\'s the most idiotic thing I have ever had the displeasure of reading on this forum. It has started. There is no turning back. If you use racial profiling to deport them / watch them, guess what? There will always be more than enough willing WHITE AMERICAN\'S who are radical muslims in hiding, that will take up the war of terror. What do you suppose we do then?
Remember this, before 9/11, when was the last big attack in the United States? Who done it? It was a White All American boy. Terrorism is not limited to radical muslims and deporting muslims in general will not stop anything.
Once again, I must point how, how I think it is pathetic that you can\'t even host a civil debate. You always have to take jabs at the members for no reason, other than you disagree with them. If you get that up in arms about it and disagree with us so bad, maybe you shouldn\'t post. At least until you can be civil about the matter.
I tend to ignore your babble as it is on par with Mystiq - just not as crude. You can\'t address an issue without making it personal it seems... I am starting to feel like Karl Rove... :rolleyes:
LIC, if you don\'t like what I post - ignore it. The last time I checked you weren\'t a mod here and if you continue with your attacks on me I will delete your posts as they are just whining from a person who still can\'t get over the fact that I am a mod. :crying: Where are you when Ghettomath and Mystiq spout their insults???? Silent as usual. Consider this your last warning on the matter. You claim to want to clean up the insults, but you blindly ignore the most visible violaters including your whiny self.
The fact is the UK has let these people into their country for years and have allowed to preach their hatred unchecked. You think I am idiotic for advocating deportation?
After the events of 7/7 the UK is looking at deportation as an option in dealing with radical Islam. We in the US have that policy - idiotic isn\'t it? :rolleyes:
Then again the UK could always release the Soccer Hooligans on them:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1529009,00.html
To follow up on the events that happened in the UK - it seems these people were "home grown" and didn\'t look like a "terrorist". How are you going to root these people out LIC? As I said deport these clerics who spout Jihad and hatred and deport anyone who listens to their nonsense.
You still haven\'t offered a viable solution to this, but instead whine about my posts... while claiming you want serious debate and not insults. :rolleyes:
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One thing that has come out of this that makes me laugh is that the serveillance cameras are helping the cops by leaps and bounds in finding these guys fast as shit.
They still haven\'t cought the guy who bombed the olympics in Atlanta 10 years ago.
And people whine all the time about big brother watching blah blah blah. You\'d never get a picture of the bomber that sharp here in the states.
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Originally posted by videoholic
One thing that has come out of this that makes me laugh is that the serveillance cameras are helping the cops by leaps and bounds in finding these guys fast as shit.
They still haven\'t cought the guy who bombed the olympics in Atlanta 10 years ago.
And people whine all the time about big brother watching blah blah blah. You\'d never get a picture of the bomber that sharp here in the states.
Actually they did find the guy that bombed the Atlanta Olympics - Eric Rudolph - who was also responsible for other bombings throughout the south.
I agree that cameras work wonders and the US is working towards that. Unfortunately our infrastructure is so large, it will take some time for every major city to be covered.
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Originally posted by videoholic
One thing that has come out of this that makes me laugh is that the serveillance cameras are helping the cops by leaps and bounds in finding these guys fast as shit.
They still haven\'t cought the guy who bombed the olympics in Atlanta 10 years ago.
And people whine all the time about big brother watching blah blah blah. You\'d never get a picture of the bomber that sharp here in the states.
i agree with you there,..but i do disagree with you on the fact that you can\'t get good surveillance camera\'s here...i remember not too long ago on the news there was this woman that got stabbed in the village part of nyc,...those surveillance cameras mounted strategically on buildings caught the perps that did it in clear picture quality...
now i have seen those cameras that are in those 24 hr grocery spots, and the quality on those things are crap. you might as well not have a camera in there at all or just put it up there as a front....everything is all fuzz with those crappy cameras...
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http://www.economist.com/printedition/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4174260
http://www.economist.com/printedition/displaystory.cfm?Story_ID=4174226
The Economist never disappoints. Two excellent articles on how extremism is bred and what to do about it. To paraphrase, many subtle factors, such as disaffection for Muslim society, alienation from family, and poverty, not just the impassioned speeches of firebrands, breed extremism. Actually, most hardcore radicals withdraw from mosques. What actions can be taken? For Europe at least, the first thing to do is to tighten the laws at home. Second, a harsher stance needs to be taken against radical clerics. It would be wrong, however, to lock up every imam who has spoken a provacative word, as it would run counter to the larger battle of European tolerance against bigotry. Governments must work together with umbrella Islamic groups and coalitions to have the millions of peach-loving moderates take action, such as leading public marches against the men of violence and, within their communities, a public debate against jihadism.
"For what is needed is a free and open debate within Islam, one in which the modernisers emulate the tactics of the extremists in a crucial way: that they exploit Europe\'s free flow of ideas in order to win the argument against those keener on medieval practices and violence. Ultimately, that will be what makes jihadis empty their heads of hatred."
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Originally posted by hyper
Actually, most hardcore radicals withdraw from mosques. What actions can be taken? For Europe at least, the first thing to do is to tighten the laws at home. Second, a harsher stance needs to be taken against radical clerics. It would be wrong, however, to lock up every imam who has spoken a provacative word, as it would run counter to the larger battle of European tolerance against bigotry. Governments must work together with umbrella Islamic groups and coalitions to have the millions of peach-loving moderates take action, such as leading public marches against the men of violence and, within their communities, a public debate against jihadism.
Wrong to lock up a Imam who speaks out advocating hate and terror? Did you just contradict yourself by saying a harsher stance needs to be taken and then say not to lock up every cleric that advocates Islamic terrorism? What you and other liberals fail to understand is that these people don\'t negotiate. They can\'t be bought off. They don\'t listen to reason. They despise Western Culture and their one goal is to destroy it. European "tolerance" will be it\'s undoing.
As for "peach-loving" moderates. I say give them all the peaches they want!
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Jeez, Giga, read the article before you start attacking me about it. Take a harsher stance, yes. Lock up EVERY IMAM who has spoken a provacative word? No. Clear?
Edit: On, and thanks for so civilly pointing out my typo. Very mature of you.
Edit: Crap. I forgot that the print edition articles are for paying members only. If any of you drop by a bookstore, pick up The Economist and give these articles a read. They\'ll be worth your time. Or better yet, subscribe to the online edition. You won\'t be wasting a single penny.
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hmmm..i kinda see what hyper is sayin\' and when we have debates such as these, i like to reflect and look at the whole picture...i\'m really not sure what the culture of tolerance is overseas but there\'s this thing called freedom of speech in the u.s. that ALOT of groups take for granted. take the kkk for example they spout so much hatred for so many ethnic groups it\'s not even funny, and they can do it in a public atmosphere because it\'s their right...
maybe this is symbolic as to what is happening in London, not sure,..but if these clerics are speaking out against the gov\'t in terms of something like "burn the infadels" or "we will bring death to them" then something needs to be done...but then again there are regular people like that in the u.s. that protest and say s**t against the gov\'t so who knows....one thing is certain tho...in some of those countries of islamic faith for you to speak out against the gov\'t you would be killed or tortured on the spot.....
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Originally posted by hyper
Jeez, Giga, read the article before you start attacking me about it. Take a harsher stance, yes. Lock up EVERY IMAM who has spoken a provacative word? No. Clear?
Edit: On, and thanks for so civilly pointing out my typo. Very mature of you.
Not my fault if you don\'t like being caught contradicting yourself and that you don\'t have a sense of humor. :rolleyes:
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Sigh... there\'s no reasoning with you, is there? But let me just ask you one thing: do you still believe in deporting every Muslim in this country?
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Originally posted by hyper
Sigh... there\'s no reasoning with you, is there? But let me just ask you one thing: do you still believe in deporting every Muslim in this country?
Something like that...
This isn\'t a war on terrorism, it is a war on Islamic Fundamentalism. Until mainstream Islam steps up to the plate and roots these troublemakers out it is impossible to tell who is good from who is bad. As was stated after the London bombings, these guys were perceived by their neighbors as ordinary guys who did not fit the fundamentalist mold. Let\'s look at today\'s
New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/auth/login?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/14/international/europe/14leeds.html&OQ=pagewantedQ3Dall&OP=b53b3ddQ2F(5Q25Q27(!eQ5DJmeeQ3B1(1))h()Q3A(pv(Q2BrQ3BQ25mr3Q3BQ2Ber3Y(Q25LmePQ25(pvYQ25Q25!JyQ3CQ3BkY)
This article shows how the Muslim community viewed these terrorists prior to thier actions:
Hasib Hussain, 18, who lived nearby, was the impressionable one, a charming young man who had been drifting into a reckless teenage life until religion set him straight.
So religion set him straight eh? These are mainstream Muslims talking here...
Then, about 18 months ago, he went on the hajj to Saudi Arabia, neighbors said, and returned a changed person, less aggressive and keenly interested in religion. He began going to the mosque. Sometimes, he even wore flowing baggy Pakistani pants and shirt. He, too, went to Pakistan, the BBC reported. The adults around him, who had been concerned that he was veering out of control, seemed pleased at the change, neighbors said.
It gets even better...
In some ways, the men, particularly the youngest ones, fit neatly into the stereotype of a suicide bomber: They are the right age. They grew up in neighborhoods where no jobs, or bad jobs, are just as common as steady jobs. They lived on blocks where people from all over the world - from Pakistan to Kosovo, Jamaica to Uganda - do not so much live together as collide with one another or, at best, keep a separate peace.
What is the single most common trait of a suicide bomber no matter where the bombings occur? Answer: They are Muslim.
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Gotta hand it to you, Giga. What I won\'t touch with a ten foot pole, you go in there hacking away with a dagger! Gotta respect that! :D
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
Gotta hand it to you, Giga. What I won\'t touch with a ten foot pole, you go in there hacking away with a dagger! Gotta respect that! :D
I am sorry if the truth offends some people. I tend not take the optimistic view of human nature and do not subscribe to the belief that everything can be worked out with dialog because when it comes to religion and fundamentalist beliefs - talking doesn\'t work.
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I\'m the same way but I\'m somewhat cautious about the whole deportation thing. I prefer to watch and be cautious approach.
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
I\'m the same way but I\'m somewhat cautious about the whole deportation thing. I prefer to watch and be cautious approach.
If they started to clean up their own mess I wouldn\'t think the way I do. Hell, I knew a Muslim guy from Iran at my previous job, really nice guy, but for all I know he could have packed himself with explosives one day and blew the building to bits.
No one in the Muslim community suspected these guys of any type of terror activity, even though going to Pakistan (when he wasn\'t even born there) and then taking a keen interest in religion when prior to that he was uninterested, would have sent up a red flag to any non Muslim.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Something like that...
This isn\'t a war on terrorism, it is a war on Islamic Fundamentalism. Until mainstream Islam steps up to the plate and roots these troublemakers out it is impossible to tell who is good from who is bad. As was stated after the London bombings, these guys were perceived by their neighbors as ordinary guys who did not fit the fundamentalist mold.
I have read your article. Now talk to me again after you have read mine. You make an interesting point in saying that this is a war of Islamic Fundamentalism. If so, why should the mainstream Islamic community have to suffer a measure as extreme as absolute deportation? Shouldn\'t we be exclusively targetting the extremists? But I am being naive. It is IMPOSSIBLE to single out potential terrorists because as the NYT article clearly shows, we cannot differentiate them. The safest solution for the West, like you said, would be to eradicate Islam and its followers. But is this just and fair for the Muslims? Go back and read my second post in this thread. This minority of terrorists is like a tumor. Even if you remove it, there\'s always a possibility that it will appear again on another part of the body. Does this mean we kill every cell in the body?
This example has been beaten to death, but take the example of the KKK. Can we say that the Klan represents the face of Christianity? Or take the Christian fundamentalists.
"The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church\'s public marks of the covenant - baptism and holy communion - must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel." - Gary North, Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism (1989)
"With all due respect to those dear people, my friend, God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew." - Bailey Smith, a founder of Pat Robertson\'s Christian Coalition, speaking during a Religious Roundtable briefing in Dallas, Texas, on June 26, 1994
"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you\'d better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we\'ll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed." - Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue. Speech before the U.S. Taxpayers Alliance on doctors who perform abortions. August 8, 1995
"The long term goal [is] the execution of abortionists and parents who hire them. If we argue that abortion is murder, then we must call for the death penalty." - Ruler of the Nations (1987)
"Nobody has the right to worship on this planet any other God than Jehovah. And therefore the state does not have the responsibility to defend anybody\'s pseudo-right to worship an idol." - Rev. Joseph Morecraft, Chalcedon Presbyterian Church, "Biblical Role of Civil Government" speech delivered on August 21, 1993 at the Biblical Worldview and Christian Education Conference.
"So let us be blunt about it: We must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will be get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God." - Gary North, The Intellectual Schizophrenia of the New Christian Right" in Christianity and Civilization: The Failure of the American Baptist Culture, No. 1 (Spring, 1982), p. 25.
"Our culture is superior. Our culture is superior because our religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free."
- Pat Buchanan, Speech to the Christian Coalition, September 1993
Do they not resemble the Islamic fundamentalists? In the name of rooting out this minority of Christian radicals, must we deport the whole Christian population and ban Christianity? Of course not. Yes, I understand that we ARE at war, and during times of war, certain rights can be taken away. But this is a war on terrorism, or as you said, a war on Islamic Fundamentalism. This war will not end any time soon; it may even last forever. According to your logic, this means that we must for a very long time or permanetly strip Muslims of the right that all other Americans enjoy.
I found it scary that you think tolerance will be Europe\'s undoing. It\'s a slippery slope; once we ban a religion or the free speech of one group, will we stop with that? The logic and laws of your world seem to become more and more Orwellian.
What is my solution to this problem? Give economic assistance to these internal Muslim ghettoes that breed extremism. Work with the moderates to pacify potential perpetrators. Yes, it will not solve everything. But it is certainly better than doing nothing.
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Originally posted by hyper
I have read your article. Now talk to me again after you have read mine. You make an interesting point in saying that this is a war of Islamic Fundamentalism. If so, why should the mainstream Islamic community have to suffer a measure as extreme as absolute deportation? Shouldn\'t we be exclusively targetting the extremists? But I am being naive. It is IMPOSSIBLE to single out potential terrorists because as the NYT article clearly shows, we cannot differentiate them. The safest solution for the West, like you said, would be to eradicate Islam and its followers. But is this just and fair for the Muslims? Go back and read my second post in this thread. This minority of terrorists is like a tumor. Even if you remove it, there\'s always a possibility that it will appear again on another part of the body. Does this mean we kill every cell in the body?
[/b]
Since when does the good of a few outway the good of the many? We agree it is impossible to weed out these terrorist because they look and act outwardly just like everyone else. Deport Muslims back to their countries and the US is safer, but that alone will not be enough. Close our borders and crack down on all illegal immigrantion.
Originally posted by hyper
This example has been beaten to death, but take the example of the KKK. Can we say that the Klan represents the face of Christianity? Or take the Christian fundamentalists.
You can\'t compare the KKK to IslamaFundies. The KKK is isolated and decaying. I have posted on this subject quite a few times. The KKK is dead for all practical purposes.
Originally posted by hyper
"The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church\'s public marks of the covenant - baptism and holy communion - must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel." - Gary North, Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism (1989)
Did this guy inspire people to pack themselves with explosives and kill innocent people?
Originally posted by hyper
"With all due respect to those dear people, my friend, God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew." - Bailey Smith, a founder of Pat Robertson\'s Christian Coalition, speaking during a Religious Roundtable briefing in Dallas, Texas, on June 26, 1994
Did this guy inspire beheadings of Jews?
Originally posted by hyper
"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you\'d better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we\'ll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed." - Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue. Speech before the U.S. Taxpayers Alliance on doctors who perform abortions. August 8, 1995
This guy belongs behind bars.
Originally posted by hyper
"The long term goal [is] the execution of abortionists and parents who hire them. If we argue that abortion is murder, then we must call for the death penalty." - Ruler of the Nations (1987)
Same isolated mentality as the above individual
Originally posted by hyper
Do they not resemble the Islamic fundamentalists? In the name of rooting out this minority of Christian radicals, must we deport the whole Christian population and ban Christianity? Of course not. Yes, I understand that we ARE at war, and during times of war, certain rights can be taken away. But this is a war on terrorism, or as you said, a war on Islamic Fundamentalism. This war will not end any time soon; it may even last forever. According to your logic, this means that we must for a very long time or permanetly strip Muslims of the right that all other Americans enjoy.
With the exception of the Abortion nuts, none of people you listed resembles Islamic fundamentalists for one very important reason: They have not inspired people to kill innocent people. You can not argue that Christianity is equal or more of a threat than Islamic Fundamentalism and it is absurd that you try and draw parallels.
However, you are correct that this war on Islamic Fundamentalism will last a very long time and that is what most don\'t understand. The way this needs to be done is with the help of moderate Islam, but they aren\'t getting the message. Wake them up by first cutting off all methods of legal entry for them into this country and if that doesn\'t work start deporting them. If they want to live in Western Society and reap its benefits then they should be responsible for those in their community.
Originally posted by hyper
I found it scary that you think tolerance will be Europe\'s undoing. It\'s a slippery slope; once we ban a religion or the free speech of one group, will we stop with that? The logic and laws of your world seem to become more and more Orwellian.
I have talked about this topic many times as well. Most European countries have a negative birthrate, yet they have an influx of immigrants from the Middle East. If this trend continues Europeans may soon find themselves minorities in their own countries.
Freedom of Speech does not give one the right to commit acts of sedition against the government.
Originally posted by hyper
What is my solution to this problem? Give economic assistance to these internal Muslim ghettoes that breed extremism. Work with the moderates to pacify potential perpetrators. Yes, it will not solve everything. But it is certainly better than doing nothing.
So what you are saying is "buy them off" so they will "behave". Appeasement doesn\'t work. The goal of these people is not material, it is the eradication of Western Society.
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Do you honestly think that deportation of all muslims will cut down on terrorist attacks? If anything it would lead to more attacks.
These extremists already despise our western culture so how would kicking everyone of theyre religion make them think "Hmmmm....maybe these guys arent so bad after all."
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Originally posted by cloud345
Do you honestly think that deportation of all muslims will cut down on terrorist attacks? If anything it would lead to more attacks.
These extremists already despise our western culture so how would kicking everyone of theyre religion make them think "Hmmmm....maybe these guys arent so bad after all."
if those people actually thought that without lookin at the past history of these lunatics then they are just as bad as these suicide bombers....deportation is not the solution tho,...and i\'m sorry, but i know in some instances maybe western countries in one way or another treat some of those islamic or arab countries unfairly, but i just cannot comprehend how one can tell a 9 yr old or 14 yr old(i\'ve heard they\'ve been that young) to strap a bomb to themselves and detonate it...makes no sense no matter what religion you believe....and i don\'t see these so called leaders strappin the bombs to their a$$!.....cowards
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Originally posted by cloud345
These extremists already despise our western culture so how would kicking everyone of theyre religion make them think "Hmmmm....maybe these guys arent so bad after all."
So letting them run around freely in our society will make them change their mind? Their goal is our destruction and nothing will persuade them otherwise.
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Not to say I told you so, but here is more on what "mainstream" Muslims think about these terrorists:
Friends: Iraq War Spurred Bombers
Friday, July 15, 2005
LEEDS, England — Shahzad Tanweer (search), the 22-year-old son of a Pakistani-born affluent businessman, turned to Islam, the religion of his birth, a few years ago.
The transformation was gradual, but then his relentless reading of the Koran and daily prayers became almost an obsession, his friends told The Associated Press. He became withdrawn and increasingly angry over the war in Iraq, according to those who knew him best.
The U.S.-led war was what likely drove him to blow himself up on a subway train last week, said his friends.
"He was a Muslim and he had to fight for Islam. This is called jihad," or holy war, said Asif Iqbal, 20, who said he was Tanweer\'s childhood friend.
Another friend, Adnan Samir, 21, nodded in agreement.
"They\'re crying over 50 people while 100 people are dying every day in Iraq and Palestine," said Iqbal. "If they are indeed the ones who did it, it\'s because they believed it was right. They\'re in Heaven.
"Have you ever been inspired in life?" he asked.
"He always told me to read the Koran and said Islam is the way [of life]," recalls Iqbal.
Everyone interviewed in his neighborhood — those who knew him well like Iqbal and Samir, who were schoolmates, or those who saw him in passing — described Tanweer as pleasant and kind.
"He was a nice lad. I don\'t know how many times he served me fish and chips," said Peter Douchworth, 58, a Beeston resident for over 30 years. "He went out of his way to help."
His uncle, Bashir Ahmed, said Tanweer traveled to Lahore, Pakistan, this year to study Islamic religion. He said his family believed he was attending "some religious function" on the day of the bombings.
Forensic evidence has linked Tanweer to the blast on the Underground train near Aldgate.
Friends Iqbal and Samir claimed ignorance as to how their friend became involved in Islamic militancy and how he became a prey to terrorist recruiters.
"All Muslims are connected," Iqbal said.
The friends said they had never been approached by anyone trying to indoctrinate them into militant Islam.
Where would Tanweer and his co-activists meet or plan their attacks?
"How do football fans get together and talk about football? It\'s the same thing," said Iqbal.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162603,00.html
Inspired???? In Heaven????? :mad: These guys think what their friend did was right and justified!!!
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I\'m just saying that deportation will only strengthen their will and make the situation worse.
As of now, the only thing we can do about it is weed out the people who we think are terrorists and stop attacks from happening using intelligence. Sure there will be terrorist attacks but as long as people are willing to give their lives for their cause there will be terrorist attacks, there is no way around it.
These people are misguided and mistake the teachings of their religion as reasons to wage jihads on other people.
Remember the crusades??? Same thing.
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Originally posted by cloud345
These people are misguided and mistake the teachings of their religion as reasons to wage jihads on other people.
Remember the crusades??? Same thing.
No, I don\'t remember the Crusades as they happened 800 years ago and that was when Europe was just emerging from the Dark Ages. Europe was barbaric at that time as was most of the world. However, this does not justify what these people are doing in the name of Islam along with those who practice Islam and turn a blind eye or encourage it in the 21st Century.
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Since when does the good of a few outway the good of the many? We agree it is impossible to weed out these terrorist because they look and act outwardly just like everyone else. Deport Muslims back to their countries and the US is safer, but that alone will not be enough. Close our borders and crack down on all illegal immigrantion.
Since when do the crimes of a minority earn punishment for the majority? Legal immigration is already next to impossible for Arabs. Nothing you have said, however, justifies the absolute deportation of all Muslims.
With the exception of the Abortion nuts, none of people you listed resembles Islamic fundamentalists for one very important reason: They have not inspired people to kill innocent people. You can not argue that Christianity is equal or more of a threat than Islamic Fundamentalism and it is absurd that you try and draw parallels.
You have missed my point - Christianity can inspire the same sort of twisted fundamentalism that Islam can. Americans donate millions each week to TV evangelicals who expound bigotry. Even the people I quoted, whom you said were isolated, enjoyed audiences in the thousands. The fact is many Christians spew unreasonably negative rhetoric on a range of issues and against other religions – not just Islam, but Buddhism, Hinduism, and Judaism – that unfortunately influences a large number of Americans. We can’t take away their right to religion and free speech because of this now, can we?
Because Christian extremists and fundamentalists do not seemingly inspire people to commit heinous acts, they are allowed to voice their messages of hate while their Muslim counterparts cannot? We agreed that it is impossible to weed out the potential terrorist from the average population. We cannot predict how they will rise nor when they will strike. The safest way out for American society would be to ban Christianity to prevent future Eric Rudolphs, Christian Identities, Lord’s Resistance Armies, and lunatics who might murder Schiavo’s husband and to ban Islam to prevent future September 11s. Yeah. Ridiculous.
However, you are correct that this war on Islamic Fundamentalism will last a very long time and that is what most don\'t understand. The way this needs to be done is with the help of moderate Islam, but they aren\'t getting the message. Wake them up by first cutting off all methods of legal entry for them into this country and if that doesn\'t work start deporting them. If they want to live in Western Society and reap its benefits then they should be responsible for those in their community.
In this, we share common ground. The Muslim community is acting, but must act faster and louder.
So what you are saying is "buy them off" so they will "behave". Appeasement doesn\'t work. The goal of these people is not material, it is the eradication of Western Society.
No, Giga. Clearly the goal of moderate Muslims in Europe is not the eradication of Western society. Neither is it the wish of the majority of Muslims leaving in peace in America, whom you so vehemently want to deport. How did most White Americans learn to accept that racial discrimination is wrong? Through landmark court rulings, but also largely through education and monetary assistance to areas most heavily hit by racism. The same can be done for Muslim communities, which are characterized by poverty and ignorance of true Western culture. It will be a slow and laborious process, but it is a long term solution, much more effective than forced deportation that would further anger extremists.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Not to say I told you so, but here is more on what "mainstream" Muslims think about these terrorists:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162603,00.html
Inspired???? In Heaven????? :mad: These guys think what their friend did was right and justified!!!
Giga, you shouldn\'t let the comments of three people form your perception of the mainstream.
Here are what other people had to say:
British Muslim leaders refuse martyr label for suicide bombers
Fri Jul 15, 4:38 PM ET
LONDON (AFP) - About 20 senior Muslim theological leaders in Britain condemned the bombings in London last week and said those who carried them out could not be considered martyrs.
"We regard these acts as utterly criminal, totally reprehensible, and absolutely un-Islamic," they said in a statement read by the imam of the central mosque of the English Midlands city of Leicester, Mohammad Shahid Reza, on their behalf.
The leaders had met in central London at the mosque in Regent\'s Park, not far from the scene of three of the explosions, at the initiative of the Muslim Council of Britain, the chief federation of Muslim organisations.
According to its secretary general Iqbal Sacranie 80 to 90 percent of British mosques and Islamic institutions belong to it.
"We are firmly of the view that these killings have absolutely no sanction in Islam, nor is there any justification whatsoever in our noble religion for such evil actions. It is our understanding that those who carried out the bombings in London should in no sense be regarded as martyrs."
The leaders said that the events of last week demanded "that all of us, both in public life and in civil and religious society, confront together the problems of Islamophobia, racism, unemployment, economic deprivation and social exclusion - factors that may be alienating some of our children and driving them towards the path of anger and desperation.
"Islam prohibits both anger and desperation. Anger and desperation are haram (forbidden) and may lead to some people being targeted by people with a sinister and violent agenda."
"Today is a historic day for the British Muslims," Sacranie said.
Muslim leaders have condemnmed the attacks, in which at least one Muslim died, but there is a growing chorus calling on the Muslim community to eliminate the extremism within it.
"It is incumbent upon all of us, Muslims and non-Muslims to help the authorities with any information that may lead to the planners of last week\'s atrocity being brought to justice," the statement said.
"The pursuit of justice for the victims of last week\'s attacks is an obligation under the faith of Islam."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050715/wl_uk_afp/britainattacksislam_050715203835;_ylt=Agc28pDD86npOoOR777qTyi9Q5gv;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
Bomber\'s Family Urges Cooperation in Probe
By MATT MOORE, Associated Press Writer Fri Jul 15, 3:29 PM ET
LONDON - Family members of Hasib Hussain, the 18-year-old identified as one of the four suicide bombers involved in last week\'s attacks in London, said they were devastated by the attack and had no idea such "a loving and normal young man" could have been involved.
ADVERTISEMENT
"We had no knowledge of his activities and if we had, we would have done everything in our power to stop him," his family said in the statement. "We urge anyone with information about these events, or leading up to them, to cooperate fully with the authorities."
His family said their thoughts were with those who lost loved ones in the July 7 attacks that killed at least 54 people, the first suicide bombings in Britain. Police believe Hussain blew himself up on a double-decker bus, killing 14 people. The other attacks targeted three subway trains.
"We, the family of Hasib Mir Hussain, are devastated over the events of the past few days. Hasib was a loving and normal young man who gave us no concern and we are having difficulty taking this in," the family said in the statement.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050715/ap_on_re_eu/britain_bomber_s_family_1
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LIC, if you don\'t like what I post - ignore it. The last time I checked you weren\'t a mod here and if you continue with your attacks on me I will delete your posts as they are just whining from a person who still can\'t get over the fact that I am a mod. Where are you when Ghettomath and Mystiq spout their insults???? Silent as usual. Consider this your last warning on the matter. You claim to want to clean up the insults, but you blindly ignore the most visible violaters including your whiny self.
I could care less if you are a moderator. You can warn me and you can also delete, as far as I care. You dictate this part of the forum like you are Jesus himself, you don\'t let anyone get two words in without bashing them. Was you a poor choice for a moderator? Yes. I think you need to look at other people who have moderated this forum for some idea as to what your duty is, a suggestion would be to follow in the steps of Ace. He has beliefs, he states them, but he doesn\'t trample over other members, simply because he can.
I fully expect this to be deleted, so be it. At least I said it. Got a problem with it? Post it in the Staff forum. Otherwise, STFU and move on with the debate in a decent manner, for christ sake. Oh and one more thing, if you are goin\' to accuse me of something, make sure you have facts to back it up. When Mystiq was here spouting off, (your exact counter part may I add), I was here telling him to STFU also..
With that said - you want a viable solution? There isn\'t one single one. You keep saying deportation, like that will fix things in no time. It won\'t. Yes, it may cut down on it, but it is not the be all / end all solution. As a human race, we must accept that we are now in an age where terrorism is going to happen and with technology, it will be easier than ever. Deporting only opens up another can of worms. What if you deport a legal American who happens to be a muslim? Law suit. We can\'t deport people until they commit a crime, it just isn\'t viable . And even if you do get all the Arabic\'s / Muslims / Radicals , that are noticable, there will always be sleepers. Do you not think they have ways to communicate? Ways to get sleepers in? Don\'t you think there are plenty of WHITE MIDDLE CLASS AMERICAN\'s who could be sleepers?
Not to mention, guess what? In America, we are allowed two things...
Freedom of Speech.
Freedom of Religion.
That means, unless they make an actual terrorist threat, we have no right to arrest them. Or unless we have proof they are planning something. We can\'t just arrest them for their viewpoints.
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You know what I find very interesting.
It\'s not that Giga was the one to come up with the most delusional and prejudiced idea for a long time.
It\'s the fact that his "idea" will NEVER HAPPEN. It\'s fun to just bitch at each other but let\'s face it, your fighting against each other and that is where it dies. Nobody outside this forums would probably have enough credibility to even put the idea of deporting people according to religion in anybody\'s head.
Man I love this country.
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heh it\'s interesting to see two mods go at it....i thought they were under some sort of secret code as to never have any conflicts with one another....at least not in the forum area\'s :p with that said, make me the new mod of c.e. shocky and core have not been doing a good job of checkin\' giga, and i\'ll set that a$$ straight! :p
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I want to be the Big Boss of the Off Topic forum. :D
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No, I don\'t remember the Crusades as they happened 800 years ago and that was when Europe was just emerging from the Dark Ages. Europe was barbaric at that time as was most of the world. However, this does not justify what these people are doing in the name of Islam along with those who practice Islam and turn a blind eye or encourage it in the 21st Century.
No you seem to miss the point....you\'re saying that Islam is the only religion who has lost it\'s way at a time. It doesnt matter when it happened, but the crusades where started because christians believed they had the right to the land. They than started a war and believed they were right in doing so. Just like the Muslims who are now currently on this Jihad or whatever you want to call it.
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The point you are missing is that this is the 21st century. You can claim their religion hasn\'t evolved all you want, but the fact is the human race has evolved in the past 800 years. The fundamentalists are still living in the 13th century. People shouldn\'t act this way no matter what God you worship or what problem you have with another country.
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Yeah sort of like how you rule over Console Discussion? OK kettle. As for taking an example of who to follow in here? Ace is fine, but he is hardly ever here. Who corrects out of place topics? Who tries to keep discussions on topic? Who else comes here regularly and checks on things?
You claim I insult people... no harm in sprinkling a few insults in with facts is there? You do it do you not? As of now this ends here. As you said if you have a problem take it to the SF.
Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
With that said - you want a viable solution? There isn\'t one single one. You keep saying deportation, like that will fix things in no time. It won\'t. Yes, it may cut down on it, but it is not the be all / end all solution. As a human race, we must accept that we are now in an age where terrorism is going to happen and with technology, it will be easier than ever. Deporting only opens up another can of worms. What if you deport a legal American who happens to be a muslim? Law suit.
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Yeah lawsuits. If they were deported who would sue? What court would they sue in? They would stripped of their citizenship which means they would have no recourse.
Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
We can\'t deport people until they commit a crime, it just isn\'t viable . And even if you do get all the Arabic\'s / Muslims / Radicals , that are noticable, there will always be sleepers. Do you not think they have ways to communicate? Ways to get sleepers in? Don\'t you think there are plenty of WHITE MIDDLE CLASS AMERICAN\'s who could be sleepers?
[/b]
When some white middle class Islamic sleeper cell carries out an attack I will be the first to say I was wrong. I also doubt there is such an animal, but you never know.
Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
Not to mention, guess what? In America, we are allowed two things...
Freedom of Speech.
Freedom of Religion.
That means, unless they make an actual terrorist threat, we have no right to arrest them. Or unless we have proof they are planning something. We can\'t just arrest them for their viewpoints.
Freedom of Speech does not mean preaching for the killing of all that don\'t believe in your religion.
Freedom of Religion does not mean you can use that religion to carry out attacks just because your warped version says you can.
We don\'t need them to make a threat as they are a threat. This was proven in London. Preaching for the destruction of our government is sedition - which is a crime. For that they could and should be arrested.
Just wait for some really horrific attack to happen. That is all it will take for most in this country to agree with it.
As for Mystiq\'s comment that no one thinks as I do... he couldn\'t be more wrong.
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You dont think there are still christians in the world today that kill in the name of god? You just don\'t see it on the news.
I still don\'t think you relise how uneffective complete deportation of Muslims would be. It would not solve anything, it would most likely increase violence and hate against America. Please try and understand this.
Muslim extremist terrorist=Western culture haters.
M.E.T+Getting religion kicked out of America= W. culture hatersx10.
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[Quote
Yeah sort of like how you rule over Console Discussion? OK kettle. As for taking an example of who to follow in here? Ace is fine, but he is hardly ever here. Who corrects out of place topics? Who tries to keep discussions on topic? Who else comes here regularly and checks on things?
You claim I insult people... no harm in sprinkling a few insults in with facts is there? You do it do you not? As of now this ends here. As you said if you have a problem take it to the SF. [/Quote]
Gaming is not important. I insult there. Others insult there. It\'s no big deal. This stuff is important.
When some white middle class Islamic sleeper cell carries out an attack I will be the first to say I was wrong. I also doubt there is such an animal, but you never know.
You\'re a blind racist, if you believe that.
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Sorry guys. Been busy with work and other things. :)
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Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
Gaming is not important. I insult there. Others insult there. It\'s no big deal. This stuff is important.
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So you admit your hypocracy. This is an internet forum - regardless of the topic. In the grand scheme of things this forum isn\'t any more important than any other forum on this site. As in your words - it is no big deal. Others insult here and if one doesn\'t go overboard and attempts to continue the discussion in an intelligent manner it is not a big deal.
Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
You\'re a blind racist, if you believe that.
I am a racist because I doubt there is a white middle class Islamic fundamentalist sleeper cell here in the US? Honestly - how many white muslims do you know?
Unlike the UK, our government doesn\'t tolerate hate filled clerics and usually keeps a close eye on them - which leads to them being either jailed or deported. The government is also now keeping tabs on people who listen to these clerics and those that leave this country to go to the Middle East and come back.
A white person doing this would stick out like a sore thumb among the intelligence community.
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Originally posted by cloud345
You dont think there are still christians in the world today that kill in the name of god? You just don\'t see it on the news.
I still don\'t think you relise how uneffective complete deportation of Muslims would be. It would not solve anything, it would most likely increase violence and hate against America. Please try and understand this.
Muslim extremist terrorist=Western culture haters.
M.E.T+Getting religion kicked out of America= W. culture hatersx10.
As I have said, just wait for some attack that makes 9/11 look like peanuts. With our current weak border security, incompetant neighbors like Mexico and Canada along with the idiotic ACLU - it is inevitable.
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To be honest the only Muslims I know are white or black.....
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Originally posted by cloud345
To be honest the only Muslims I know are white or black.....
It\'s impossible for a white to be a muslim, didn\'t you know that?
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My God, Giga... let me sum up what you have said in this thread.
1) Your cry about wanting to protect innocent people. Yet you don\'t give a damn about innocent American Muslims who would be torn from family, lose their jobs, and very likely be put in mortal danger if they were to be deported. To you, a Muslim forfeited innocence the moment he chose Islam.
2) You say Islam has no place in this country because of its radicalism. Yet you will allow Christian bigotry on the grounds that it does not inspire people to commit heinous acts, even though I have given you concrete examples of Christian extremists who are ready to kill and have killed.
3) You are ready to trample on the First Amendment and the rights of all Muslims because you believe that being Muslim somehow entails sedition.
4) Lastly, you are well-informed. And because you are well-informed, you absolutely cannot deny the parallels between your philosophy and McCarthyism. Except in your case, people don\'t even have to be accused of being a red or against the government. All it takes is for them to be Muslim, and then it doesn\'t matter if they were born and raised in this country - they are guilty and CANNOT be proven innocent.
The Japanese concentration camps were labeled as inhumane, but only after the Japanese had already sufferred. McCarthyism was deemed as completely Un-American, but only after it ruined hundreds of innocent people. Funny thing is, people seem to ignore lessons from history and only admit their mistakes after they are committed. Let\'s not continue that trend by even thinking about indiscriminately deporting all Muslims.
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Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
It\'s impossible for a white to be a muslim, didn\'t you know that?
Heh...without the smiley, I\'m not sure if you jest. But I just wanna remind you, in case you are serious, that Serbs are Muslims.
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Originally posted by hyper
My God, Giga... let me sum up what you have said in this thread.
1) Your cry about wanting to protect innocent people. Yet you don\'t give a damn about innocent American Muslims who would be torn from family, lose their jobs, and very likely be put in mortal danger if they were to be deported. To you, a Muslim forfeited innocence the moment he chose Islam.
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Sure I care about Muslims. I care about them killing innocent people in the Western world. I wonder would what you would be saying if this were say WW2? Would you be defending the Germans and the Japanese?
Originally posted by hyper
2) You say Islam has no place in this country because of its radicalism. Yet you will allow Christian bigotry on the grounds that it does not inspire people to commit heinous acts, even though I have given you concrete examples of Christian extremists who are ready to kill and have killed.
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You forget Christianity played a major role in the development of this country and you can not argue that even though we have seperation of Church and State, that the US is by and large a Christian nation. For all practical purposes it is the native religion of this country. Islam is not. Please stop comparing the two. As for these extremists - few and far between.
Originally posted by hyper
3) You are ready to trample on the First Amendment and the rights of all Muslims because you believe that being Muslim somehow entails sedition.
Correct!
Originally posted by hyper
4) Lastly, you are well-informed. And because you are well-informed, you absolutely cannot deny the parallels between your philosophy and McCarthyism. Except in your case, people don\'t even have to be accused of being a red or against the government. All it takes is for them to be Muslim, and then it doesn\'t matter if they were born and raised in this country - they are guilty and CANNOT be proven innocent.
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You speak as if McCarthyism was a bad thing. Actually it did weed out a lot of Communists in the beginning, but then old Joe\'s alcoholism got the best of him.
Originally posted by hyper
The Japanese concentration camps were labeled as inhumane, but only after the Japanese had already sufferred. McCarthyism was deemed as completely Un-American, but only after it ruined hundreds of innocent people. Funny thing is, people seem to ignore lessons from history and only admit their mistakes after they are committed. Let\'s not continue that trend by even thinking about indiscriminately deporting all Muslims.
I can see the fire I am going to draw from my next statement...
I have no problems with what the US government did to the Japanese in this country after Pearl Harbor and for the remainder of WW2. So quite a number were innocent - by rounding them all up our country could devote resources to the war instead of tryiing to find out who was a good Japanese as opposed to who was a bad one. It certainly worked as there was no Japanese spying after the fact.
Honestly, I am done with this worn out topic. None of us know what will happen next, but I hope I don\'t have to say I told you so. I also have to wonder about any white person that converts to a barbaric religion such as Islam... John Walker Lindh comes to mind...
A long time ago I felt sympathy for Muslims who were trying to get back Palestine and in other parts of the world. That died on 9/11.
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
Heh...without the smiley, I\'m not sure if you jest. But I just wanna remind you, in case you are serious, that Serbs are Muslims.
No Serbs aren\'t Muslim. Muslims live in Bosnia and Kosavo. The Serbs are Orthadox Christian.
/done.
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Originally posted by GmanJoe
Heh...without the smiley, I\'m not sure if you jest. But I just wanna remind you, in case you are serious, that Serbs are Muslims.
I forgot the sarcastic smiley.
According to the all-so-wise Giga, there are no "sleepers" and it just isn\'t possible for a white American to hate the country and be a terrorist or be a radical muslim. Then again, muslims are just so dangerous all around, we should deport them all to their own little island.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
I am a racist because I doubt there is a white middle class Islamic fundamentalist sleeper cell here in the US? Honestly - how many white muslims do you know?
A white person doing this would stick out like a sore thumb among the intelligence community. [/B]
In the United States, there are estimated to be roughly 80,000 white and Hispanic Muslims, along with a far greater number of African-American ones.
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/05/02/features-bernhard.php
just google "white muslim" if you don\'t think they exist. This is only the first link of many I found.
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I\'m sure Giga will claim it\'s spin doctored hype or something outrageous.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
Sure I care about Muslims. I care about them killing innocent people in the Western world. I wonder would what you would be saying if this were say WW2? Would you be defending the Germans and the Japanese?
I love how you try to sidestep the issue of innocent Muslims. And yes, I would defend Germans and Japanese just as many Protestant denominations in the West Coast did during WWII. War does not turn my friends into spies overnight. Hopefully, the same goes for you.
You forget Christianity played a major role in the development of this country and you can not argue that even though we have seperation of Church and State, that the US is by and large a Christian nation. For all practical purposes it is the native religion of this country. Islam is not. Please stop comparing the two. As for these extremists - few and far between.
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Stop trying to change the topic. I never commented on the separation of Church and State or the religious character of the United States. I will state my point again ?Christianity and Islam both have extremists. They are few and far between for both religions but equally dangerous. Clear?
Correct!
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Yes! I’m right about you!
You speak as if McCarthyism was a bad thing. Actually it did weed out a lot of Communists in the beginning, but then old Joe\'s alcoholism got the best of him.
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Heh. The things you’ll do to prove your point.
I can see the fire I am going to draw from my next statement...
I have no problems with what the US government did to the Japanese in this country after Pearl Harbor and for the remainder of WW2. So quite a number were innocent - by rounding them all up our country could devote resources to the war instead of tryiing to find out who was a good Japanese as opposed to who was a bad one. It certainly worked as there was no Japanese spying after the fact.
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Well, here comes the fire!
?B] A 1941 report prepared on President Roosevelt\'s orders by Curtis B. Munson, special representative of the State Department, concluded that most Japanese nationals and "90 to 98 percent" of Japanese American citizens were loyal.[/B] He wrote: "There is no Japanese `problem\' on the Coast ... There is far more danger from Communists and people of the Bridges type on the Coast than there is from Japanese."??Google the source if you’d like. I don’t have it, as it’s from a research paper I did for school.
“The most serious discrimination during World War II was the decision to evacuate Japanese nationals and American citizens of Japanese descent from the West Coast and send them to internment camps. Because the FBI had arrested the individuals whom it considered security threats, FBI Director Hoover took the position that confining others was unnecessary.?- http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fbi/fbi_hist.htm#world
“Most of the 110,000 persons removed for reasons of \'national security\' were school-age children, infants and young adults not yet of voting age.?- http://www.pbs.org/childofcamp/history/
“At the time, Executive Order 9066 was justified as a "military necessity" to protect against domestic espionage and sabotage. However, it was later documented that "our government had in its possession proof that not one Japanese American, citizen or not, had engaged in espionage, not one had committed any act of sabotage." (Michi Weglyn, 1976).
Rather, the causes for this unprecedented action in American history, according to the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians, "were motivated largely by racial prejudice, wartime hysteria, and a failure of political leadership."
- http://www.pbs.org/childofcamp/history/
But all of that can be said do be subjective. Here’s the clincher:
“In early 1944, the government began clearing individuals to return to the West Coast; on January 2, 1945, the exclusion order was rescinded entirely. The fact that this occurred long before the Japanese surrender, while the war was arguably at its most vicious, weighs heavily against the claim that the relocation was an essential security measure.?
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_internment
Perhaps you’d like to explain again the logical soundness of internment? Maybe the government thought the horrendous conditions of the camps put the fear of God into the Japanese.
You disappoint me, Giga. If you were glad about how the Japanese were treated for the “remainder of WWII,?then you should also be against the deportation of Muslims. You know, since the Japanese, with their “spies?and all, were returned long before the war ended. Check on your facts next time before you speak; you clearly thought that they were interned for the entire war. Seems like war hysteria’s getting the better of you.
Honestly, I am done with this worn out topic. None of us know what will happen next, but I hope I don\'t have to say I told you so. I also have to wonder about any white person that converts to a barbaric religion such as Islam... John Walker Lindh comes to mind...
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Yes, I’m getting tired of this topic as well. I’m sure the other members are also tired of my dragging this thread out. But when you supply me with bigoted statements like “barbaric religion such as Islam,?I become rejuvenated.
A long time ago I felt sympathy for Muslims who were trying to get back Palestine and in other parts of the world. That died on 9/11. [/B]
Yes, and your ability to reason died with it.
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Originally posted by hyper
I love how you try to sidestep the issue of innocent Muslims. And yes, I would defend Germans and Japanese just as many Protestant denominations in the West Coast did during WWII. War does not turn my friends into spies overnight. Hopefully, the same goes for you.
Just like those Muslim boys in the UK had friends who thought they were swell guys before they set off the bombs right?
Originally posted by hyper
Stop trying to change the topic. I never commented on the separation of Church and State or the religious character of the United States. I will state my point again – Christianity and Islam both have extremists. They are few and far between for both religions but equally dangerous. Clear?
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There are many more fanatical Muslims than there are Christian fundamentalists. Like I said you can\'t stop comparing the two even though the fact that Islamic fundamentalists are responsible for killing hundreds of people a day.
Originally posted by hyper
Yes! I’m right about you!
And I am correct in my opinion of you. Whoopy!
Originally posted by hyper
Heh. The things you’ll do to prove your point.
Glad to see you can\'t deny that the Red Menace was in fact real in the beginning.
Originally posted by hyper
A 1941 report prepared on President Roosevelt\'s orders by Curtis B. Munson, special representative of the State Department, concluded that most Japanese nationals and "90 to 98 percent" of Japanese American citizens were loyal. He wrote: "There is no Japanese `problem\' on the Coast ... There is far more danger from Communists and people of the Bridges type on the Coast than there is from Japanese."’ – Google the source if you’d like. I don’t have it, as it’s from a research paper I did for school.
When was this concluded? What year? You forget the Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor and did use spies based in Hawaii. You Google it - you are making the claim, not I.
Originally posted by hyper
“Because the FBI had arrested the individuals whom it considered security threats, FBI Director Hoover took the position that confining others was unnecessary.” - http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fbi/fbi_hist.htm#world
I agree with the militaries assessment more than Queen Hoovers.
Originally posted by hyper
"Most of the 110,000 persons removed for reasons of \'national security\' were school-age children, infants and young adults not yet of voting age.” - http://www.pbs.org/childofcamp/history/
“At the time, Executive Order 9066 was justified as a "military necessity" to protect against domestic espionage and sabotage. However, it was later documented that "our government had in its possession proof that not one Japanese American, citizen or not, had engaged in espionage, not one had committed any act of sabotage." (Michi Weglyn, 1976).
Of course there was no espionage - they were all in camps! As for PBS the great liberal media outlet, it doesn\'t surprise me that they try and victimize the enemy in a revisionist form of reporting.
Originally posted by hyper
Rather, the causes for this unprecedented action in American history, according to the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians, "were motivated largely by racial prejudice, wartime hysteria, and a failure of political leadership."
See my above reference to PBS.
Originally posted by hyper
But all of that can be said do be subjective. Here’s the clincher:
“In early 1944, the government began clearing individuals to return to the West Coast; on January 2, 1945, the exclusion order was rescinded entirely. The fact that this occurred long before the Japanese surrender, while the war was arguably at its most vicious, weighs heavily against the claim that the relocation was an essential security measure.”
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_internment
I wouldn\'t quote Wikipedia as it is written by fellow internet users. That being said the point you are "clinching" your arguement on is faulty. The War in the Pacific was over after the Battle of Midway. The Japanese had no carrier\'s left and were no longer a threat offensively. This all happened in June of 1942 - a good year and a half before 1944 and an even longer 2 and a half years before the order was rescinded.
Originally posted by hyper
Perhaps you’d like to explain again the logical soundness of internment? Maybe the government thought the horrendous conditions of the camps put the fear of God into the Japanese.
You already pointed the logic out in your own post!
Executive Order 9066 was justified as a "military necessity" to protect against domestic espionage and sabotage.
Originally posted by hyper
You disappoint me, Giga. If you were glad about how the Japanese were treated for the “remainder of WWII,” then you should also be against the deportation of Muslims. You know, since the Japanese, with their “spies” and all, were returned long before the war ended. Check on your facts next time before you speak; you clearly thought that they were interned for the entire war. Seems like war hysteria’s getting the better of you.
It is not I that need to check my facts friend, it is you. My statement regarding the "remainder of WWII" was a generalization regarding timelines, but your claim that they were "returned long before the war ended is absurd!". Japan formerly surrendered in August of the same year that the order was repealed.
Also as I have pointed out the Battle of Midway effectively ended any Japanese threat to the US mainland in 1942. Japan was fighting a losing battle from that point on and was being driven back across the Pacific. It is only logical that they weren\'t deemed a threat given Japan\'s situation in the war.
Originally posted by hyper
Yes, I’m getting tired of this topic as well. I’m sure the other members are also tired of my dragging this thread out. But when you supply me with bigoted statements like “barbaric religion such as Islam,” I become rejuvenated.
Likewise, with your revisionist thinking it beckons me to respond and sickens me that people like you think of our former enemies as victims as well as believing that during wartime the US shouldn\'t have taken any precautions. The US was attacked without provocation and you expect the government not to take measures to ensure the safety of this country? Let me ask do you believe we shouldn\'t have dropped the A-bombs on Japan? Your answer could explain everything.
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All I have to say is, the thinking Giga has on Muslims is just as dangerous as any of the KKK. May as well join it.
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Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
All I have to say is, the thinking Giga has on Muslims is just as dangerous as any of the KKK. May as well join it.
Your forgot Nazi. :rolleyes:
How is my thinking as dangerous as the KKK? Your response is the typical knee jerk liberal reaction when faced with someone who has an opinion you don\'t like. "Hitler", "Nazi", "KKK member" - at least come up with something original.
And you whine about me insulting people?
:lmao: