PSX5Central
Playstation/Gaming Discussions => PS3 Discussion => Topic started by: BizioEE on November 01, 2005, 12:52:32 AM
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http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25109&page=2
RSX GPU:
I think the PS3 will either contain a dual core RSX GPU die design, or have dual RSX GPUs.
Think about this:
A simple speed increase (550MHz RSX) will not outperform a dual 430MHz 7800 GTX setup. A dual 7800 GTX setup is able to utilize all the pipelines (24 + 24 = 48 total pipelines) for better performance than a single 550MHz RSX GPU. Simply put a dual 7800 GTX graphic setup has the potential to output more data. Please don’t factor in PC bottlenecks that stop dual 7800 GTX cards from outperforming the PS3 as a whole. Imagine the PC or PS3 Alpha Kit without the current bottlenecks and having dual 7800 cards. This rant of mine deals with future games needing more GPU power rather than system throughput. Hell, Nvidia or ATI can release a GPU in late 2006 or Mid 2007 with enough GPU throughput power to overcome the PC bottlenecks.
Remember E3:
It’s well known that the PS3 demos (Unreal 3.0 Engine, ECT…) were running off PS3 Alpha Kits, that didn’t contain the RSX GPU, but rather dual NVIDIA graphic boards. Many thought it was dual 6800’s graphic cards, however that wasn’t the case. Actually the overall consensus is that they were (unannounced at that time) Dual 7800 GTX graphic cards. Why dual 7800s rather than dual 6800s graphic cards? Because the PS3 demos shown, more specifically the Unreal Engine 3.0 Demo will not/could not run that smooth on dual 6800 based cards. Remember Mark Rein stated and showed the Unreal 3.0 Engine on a dual 6800 rig running at 15-20fps (the first time Unreal 3 Engine was ever shown last year). Even at E3 Mark hinted or let slip out on the Alpha Kits containing newer cards. My point is being …dual 6800s would not have ran those demos very smoothly at those hi-setting. Leading one to believe that the 7800’s GTX where involved.
Old Article Proof:
Quote:
When Sony unveiled the PlayStation 3 at their pre-Electronic Entertainment Expo press conference, the company appeared confident in its hardware, but like rumors surrounding the supposedly real-time technology demonstrations, it appears the hardware isn\'t completely set in stone yet, either.
At a J.P. Morgan technology conference, NVIDIA\'s CFO Marv Burkett said the PlayStation 3\'s RSX (the hardware\'s GPU) isn\'t finished, still remains in development, and no silicon of the chip is available yet, reports Bit-Tech. Incomplete hardware comes as no surprise, but it does raise questions about what was powering the demonstrations on-hand at Sony\'s press conference.
Burkett says the RSX demonstrations weren\'t actually running on the RSX, but an upcoming NVIDIA high-end desktop product in SLI mode. NVIDIA was not more specific about what type of hardware this entailed.
So what I’m getting at:
For the RSX to be able to handle games like Killzone 3, Unreal Engine 3 based games, and so fourth. The PS3 must have a dual RSX GPU setup or a RSX GPU design containing multiple graphic chips. Because a simple overclock G70 (RSX) can’t handle that amount data without graphic frame-rate issues. 48 pipelines (Dual 7800 GTX) beat’s a simple 120MHz overclock (RSX) in data processing.
Last Word:
I simply don’t believe the RSX GPU is just an overclock G70 based processor. Even if the PS3 doesn’t come with a dual-core RSX anything, the RSX in my opinion must contain at least 40 or more pipelines to handle the data Sony is claiming. Yes the Cell will play a big part in helping out, but that doesn’t rectify possible future game issues. In the-end the RSX GPU must be equal or better than two 7800 GTX cards rather than dual 6800\'s...IMO!
And you must remember Sony also stated that "ALL SPECIFICATION CAN CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE”.
Seven, Fastson and anyone what do you think ?
I think the RSX will be much more than an overclock G70 based processor !
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I\'m tired of opinions...I\'d like to see non-bullsh^t final specs.
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Nintendo just sent out a press release saying it plans to never reveal Revolution specs.
How\'s that for an F. U. to pre-launch hype?
-Dan
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I wonder what Nintendo has up their sleeves with the Revolution. I\'m sure the specs will get released after launch. Makes me wonder what they\'ve got planned.
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Originally posted by EviscerationX
I\'m tired of opinions...I\'d like to see non-bullsh^t final specs.
+1
Nintendo\'s strategy seems cool, but deep down inside I know they\'re doing that because their specs can\'t compete wiith the other 2. I still plan on getting a Revo though :thumb:
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I still plan on getting a Revo though
Me too. :) That controller weirds me out though.
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Hmm I don’t know what to think. Very interesting post.
I guess he has a few good points. This could explain why Sony is so quiet about the RSX.
But it sounds too expensive!
I think Sony will settle for a upgraded G70, higher MHz, plus some other features the G70 lacks. IIRC the G70 has a Video Decoder of some sort that would be useless inside a PS3 (because Video Decoding is handled by the CELL processor), so this Video Decoder has probably been replaced by something else.
On top of G70 they have a kick arse processor (CELL) which can function as a GPU of its own it seems (just have a look at that Getaway tech demo, according to Sony Chief Technology Officer Masayuki Chatani the Getaway demo was run mostly on the CELL).
CELL + RSX is one helluva system. I don’t think the 360 can compete with that. :)
I also think the 360 will be seriously crippled by the limited storage capacity. I read that one full core of the CPU will be wasted in some games just to decompress compressed data, seems like a badly designed system to me.
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I also think the 360 will be seriously crippled by the limited storage capacity. I read that one full core of the CPU will be wasted in some games just to decompress compressed data, seems like a badly designed system to me.
You are basing this off of some thing you read, which already seems higlhy impractical. If you want real info on both PS3 and Xbox360 without any of the fluff/hype and real insight in the workings of both consoles, this is the most highly respected forum for that type of discussion on the net. Also if you into pc Graphic cards again this is the #1 place of discussion for it.
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/index.php
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Nintendo\'s move is both smart and dumb.
1: It\'s smart, because it will make people focus on the games and not the specs. It is also a smart move because it takes them further out of the race bewteen Sony and MS. Distancing themselves as much as possible can be a good thing.
2: The dumb part of it is a lot of people will assume that Nintendo is doin\' this because they can\'t compete at all.
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Originally posted by NVIDIA256
You are basing this off of some thing you read, which already seems higlhy impractical. If you want real info on both PS3 and Xbox360 without any of the fluff/hype and real insight in the workings of both consoles, this is the most highly respected forum for that type of discussion on the net. Also if you into pc Graphic cards again this is the #1 place of discussion for it.
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/index.php
B3D has its shares of fanboys too. In recent months B3D was invaded by trolls from a site called Opa-Age (?), I hope they have it under control now because from what I understand people have been leaving the place. At least the console forums.
I have lurked B3D for years and it was a great place for information. :)
About one core being used for uncompressing compressed data:
From Gameinformer\'s interview with J Allard
"On the CPU architecture, we\'ve built a really high bandwidth access to memory (and decompression technology on the hardware). And a very general, all purpose computer architecture that basically allows you to write your own decompressors to decompress however you want. This is one of the reasons we went to the multi-core architecture and said, "Hey, if you\'re id or you\'re Tiburon or you\'re Rockstar, you can go to build a streaming decompression system that works for your environment, and we\'ll give you the bandwidth to do it". (Its) a very similar design to the original Xbox or to PC, where its very easy to program to and you use one of those cores and have your Rockstar I/O developer create this streaming system that\'s totally customized to your needs, because we\'ve got the bandwidth and memory, and you\'ve got the CPU horsepower. We\'ve architectured it in a way were you can go pick up one of those CPUs to do unbelievable decompression, and there\'s another CPU over there that doesn\'t affect the game loop."
To me that sounds like a waste of power. If they had gone with a larger storage capacity they could use that extra power for something else. This is a problem PS3 wont have to deal with.
Next gen games will need more space, the Epic guy (sorry, I’m suffering from temporary memory loss at the moment.) mentioned Next Gen games needing ~20GB of space. Another 360 developer making an RPG game said their currently up to 2 DVDs and might need a 3rd when the game is done. That’s maybe not a big problem for a RPG game, but what about a free roaming style game?
And I thought this was quite interesting (Greggman= Former Sega and Naughty Dog employee)
http://greggman.com/edit/editheadlines/2005-08-17.htm
If I may speculate, I think we will see some games for PS3 that wont work as well on the 360. I think the GameCube might have missed out on a few games thanks to the small storage capacity (would San Andreas have worked on the GC? Switching discs every time you enter a new island? How fun would a "cross country" mission be then?).
Time will tell what happens. :)
EDIT: Mark REIN is his name. Here is the interview with him talking about storage.
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/r/?http://www.computerandvideogames.com/news/news_story.php(que)id=125925
Unreal Tournament was 6GB compressed. Next Generation games are going to be 20GB plus, and how we\'re going to fit them on DVD9\'s I don\'t know, they\'ll probably be a few of them. On the PS3, we\'re going to be using the majority of the space on those Blu-ray disks.
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The 7800 GTX 512mb 550/1800 mhz card is likely to be beaten by PS3\'s RSX.
This card will be made on 110nm silicon slab, while RSX will be made on 90nm.
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(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arts.uwaterloo.ca%2F%7Eraha%2F306a_web%2Ffrink.gif&hash=ac56061bbb0c73bbe169f2bcffc2b643ac875aeb)
The answer is.....42!
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remember when the big thing was how many polygons a system could do? yea...
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Back when it was easier to figure out who was the best.
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Back when numbers weren\'t so damn big...
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I remember when we talked in Bits.
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Me too. :)
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Even with the PS2, there was some talk about Bits. I miss the good old days. Now consoles are like thingamajigs instead of the only task of playing games. Kids today know nothing of what we grew up with and have no appreciation for games like our generation does. I grew up with the 8 bit systems and I still missed out on consoles like Atari, Sega Masters system.
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Shit, I had to make my first couple games on my TI-994A.
Well that doesn\'t count my Odessey II. Damn, that thing rocked.. Everyone else had atari and I got a fucking Odessey II.
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Originally posted by Jumpman
remember when the big thing was how many polygons a system could do? yea...
That\'s still a big issue. Developers still assign strict mesh budgets to their modelers who often beg for increase.
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IBM releases Cell development tools (http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/cell/)
For both registered developers and hobbyists on Linux.
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Originally posted by videoholic
Shit, I had to make my first couple games on my TI-994A.
Well that doesn\'t count my Odessey II. Damn, that thing rocked.. Everyone else had atari and I got a fucking Odessey II.
*cries*...ahhh the good ol\' days..while i didn\'t have an odessy II (i wanted one)...i had the atari 2600 & 5200 then i got the commodore 128..karateka anyone?..:p..only game i played on that thing was ea\'s two on two basketball..:p
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EA Sports Summer games on the Commodore 64. Damn that game freaking rocked.
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http://www.computerandvideogames.com/r/?page=http://www.computerandvideogames.com/news/news_story.php(que)id=122709
PS3\'S MEMORY BOOSTED ?
...I really suspect the final PS3 specs will be higher than what previously shown...
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Fairly useless newsitem.
Many point out RSX\'s 128 bit bus as the bottleneck. That\'s a good argument imo.
Even if Nvidia would raise RSX vram speed , the 128bit bus would kind of nullify that i guess.
Sony\'s situation doesn\'t look at it\'s best lately, especially with all that DRM drama.
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sony has developed a technology where once you play a game in your console the game will be "locked" into only playing on that console.
That would blow
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Interesting news bit, PS2 was upgraded (upped clockspeed on both Emotion Engine and Graphics Synthesizer), same thing with the PSP (more RAM IIRC)
We\'ll see what happens, I think Sony would like to keep costs down as much as possible.
Originally posted by JBean
sony has developed a technology where once you play a game in your console the game will be "locked" into only playing on that console.
That would blow
That patent is from 1999, no one actually believes it will be used (in the PS3). Cuz that would most certainly suck major cojone. ;)
Btw.. Sony BGM =! SCEI ;)
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That is bad for business. I don\'t think they will ever use that technology in a console.
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sony has developed a technology where once you play a game in your console the game will be "locked" into only playing on that console.
Wait...WTF? Does that mean you couldn\'t bring the game to a friend\'s house? And you\'d have to bring the fuggin\' console everywhere you go? That would most certainly blow.
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And imagine if the consumer is forced to buy his games twice if his console is broken and buys a new one
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Originally posted by Unicron!
And imagine if the consumer is forced to buy his games twice if his console is broken and buys a new one
Good point. That would be so stupid. You\'d have to re-purchase your entire library of games.
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Originally posted by EviscerationX
Wait...WTF? Does that mean you couldn\'t bring the game to a friend\'s house? And you\'d have to bring the fuggin\' console everywhere you go? That would most certainly blow.
Yeah, and what happens if the console craps out....a lot like what the PS2 did for most people. Like I said, I don\'t see them using this technology..ever.
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Sounds like the worst idea ever conceived.
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The RSX graphics synthesizer is using the G70 architecture, but is one generation ahead !?!
On another note about the G70 architecture, Sony\'s upcoming PlayStation 3 will be using NVIDIA\'s RSX processor that is based on the G70 architecture. A few months ago, some NVIDIA representatives mentioned it would be as powerful as the GeForce 7800 GTX. However during G70 launch briefing, NVIDIA\'s CEO - Jen-Hsun Huang, made a statement that the RSX graphics synthesizer is using the G70 architecture, but is one generation ahead. That could either mean more features, or more parallel processing pipelines, or a combination of both to give the RSX the needed power to see through it\'s useful lifetime in the future when it\'s released. Whatever the case, this sounded a lot more logical to us. After all, the GeForce3 was a fresh product when the XBOX was launched and it had a GPU more powerful than the desktop GeForce3 products.
http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles...=1638&pg=4
Sony is so silent...they\'re going to throw a bomb on X360 launch...
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Or they are so silent cuz they\'re a bit worried.
Increased clockspeeds on either cpu or gpu would mean ;
- requires to have better/higher yields
- requires more wattage and results in
more heat buildup.
All we can say atm is that Xbox360 is ramping up fine both with the developers and the anticipating audience.
And ow yeah.. Revolution has gotten alot of sympathy even though we haven\'t yet seen a single fvcking Rev game either !
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Originally posted by Knotter8
Or they are so silent cuz they\'re a bit worried.
Increased clockspeeds on either cpu or gpu would mean ;
- requires to have better/higher yields
- requires more wattage and results in
more heat buildup.
All we can say atm is that Xbox360 is ramping up fine both with the developers and the anticipating audience.
And ow yeah.. Revolution has gotten alot of sympathy even though we haven\'t yet seen a single fvcking Rev game either !
A few people have speculated that the RSX was only recently finished. That could be the reason why we have no firm information on the RSX yet.
IIRC Sony is shipping the final dev kits next month, so the RSX should be done now.
Developers have hinted we’ll know all in due time.
Btw, I read rumours saying Sony will be showing us something this month to try and steal some thunder from the X360 launch. A few people have been hinting towards Sony talking about the online plans.
I’m starving for information right now so I hope we’ll get to see something new soon.
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mmmaybe...
but Sony\'s current DRM scandal, the whole stupid idea of PS3 games only playable on the first PS3 console....
I have a feeling Sony as a company has so many Heads pointing in so many directions that it has become a bit of a steerless ship.
Maybe it doesn\'t affect Sony Computer Entertainment all too much, but things don\'t look all that great atm.
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Originally posted by Knotter8
mmmaybe...
but Sony\'s current DRM scandal, the whole stupid idea of PS3 games only playable on the first PS3 console....
I have a feeling Sony as a company has so many Heads pointing in so many directions that it has become a bit of a steerless ship.
Maybe it doesn\'t affect Sony Computer Entertainment all too much, but things don\'t look all that great atm.
I doubt Sony (or Sony BGM USA who this affects) tries to pull anything like that anytime soon, considering the huge PR backlash this “scandal” has caused.
About the patent, I don’t know why that has been brought up by websites. The patent was from 1999 (updated in 2004 though). A feature like that might kill off the PlayStation brand.
The different SCE divisions are now supposed to work closer than ever. IIRC SCEE, SCEA and SCEI will be united under SCE World Wide (Phil Harrison was made the chief govna I believe), the idea is to let developer share software more easily. I remember reading articles about the different divisions fighting amongst their own, I think this is an attempt of Sony to get rid of that because its hurting the PlayStation business.
I think this will be good for SCE.
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NVidia CEO Jen-Hsun Huang stated during Sony\'s pre-show press conference at E3 2005 that the RSX will be much more powerful than two GeForce 6800 Ultra video cards combined. Current industry speculation is that the RSX may be based on the G70 architecture used in NVidia\'s GeForce 7 Series GPUs which were introduced in June of 2005, but implementing many more parallel pixel and shader pipelines than any consumer PC GPU (NVidia\'s top-of-the-line GeForce 7800 GTX currently contains 24 pixel and 8 vertex pipelines), and clocked higher than any PC GPU based on G70 (with speculation that the RSX chip will be reworked using the new G71 architecture topping 650-700mhz and an improved vertex pipeline support, as well as an increased 512mb memory) (again, the 7800 GTX is clocked at 430 MHz, compared to 550 MHz for the RSX). An nVidia spokesperson was quoted in PlayStation Magazine as saying that the 7800GTX "shares a lot of similar inner workings with the PS3\'s RSX chip, only it (the 7800GTX) isn\'t nearly as fast (as the RSX)."
http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=47985
it\'s interesting, and I\'m too curious :D ...who knows...
fasty, read the entire post of this guy and tell me what you think...he does great posts and seems to know a lot...
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Originally posted by BizioEE
http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=47985
it\'s interesting, and I\'m too curious :D ...who knows...
fasty, read the entire post of this guy and tell me what you think...he does great posts and seems to know a lot...
Hmm interesting post.. It goes beyond what I know. ;)
The 1.8 TFLOP figure Sony/nVidia announced is comparable to the 1 TFLOP figure MS/ATI released for the Xbox 360. These figures does not show how many of these flops are programmable. I\'m not sure if that guy understands that. I think he\'s trying to get the G70 numbers up to the 1.8TFLOP figure but instead using programmable flops.
1.8TFLOP vs 1TFLOP are just PR numbers.
I think the "real" programmable FLOP number of the RSX is somewhere around ~400 Billion for RSX and ~240 Billion for the Xenos.
Still RSX is a little mystery. I hope we learn more about it SOON. :)
EDIT: Read xbdestroya\'s posts in that thread. I think they\'re pretty good.
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The only thing we know for sure is that Nvidia surprised friend and foe with the 110Nm 7800GTX 512mb @ 580/1750 mhz clocks.
That just shows there\'s ALOT of stretch in G70\'s clockspeeds.
RSX is also most likely to be fabricated on 90Nm slab, so that will even have better thermal characteristics.
My only big question mark is the 128bits memory controller on RSX :confused:
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Originally posted by BizioEE
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25109&page=2
Seven, Fastson and anyone what do you think ?
I think the RSX will be much more than an overclock G70 based processor !
Personally? Not a chance at all. Sony has enough of a "paper advantage" to claim with or without a dual RSX. Also, RSX is already a huge chip that produces a lot of heat - and that in itself poses a few problems such as cooling measures that have to fit within a small case (remember, it\'s a consumer device, not a PC-card that\'ll go into a big PC case). Also, double GPU would be very expensive - if you already have the "paper spec" advantage, why waste money on a potential that may or may not help you? It\'s more important to Sony to get PS3 out in Spring with enough units they can get and top-notch software. If you see any performance upgrades, expect higher clocks on CELLs side but not more.
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Originally posted by seven
Personally? Not a chance at all. Sony has enough of a "paper advantage" to claim with or without a dual RSX. Also, RSX is already a huge chip that produces a lot of heat - and that in itself poses a few problems such as cooling measures that have to fit within a small case (remember, it\'s a consumer device, not a PC-card that\'ll go into a big PC case). Also, double GPU would be very expensive - if you already have the "paper spec" advantage, why waste money on a potential that may or may not help you? It\'s more important to Sony to get PS3 out in Spring with enough units they can get and top-notch software. If you see any performance upgrades, expect higher clocks on CELLs side but not more.
let\'s wait and see...I\'m just too curious to know everything about PS3...
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Originally posted by fastson
Hmm interesting post.. It goes beyond what I know. ;)
...Still RSX is a little mystery. I hope we learn more about it SOON. :)
EDIT: Read xbdestroya\'s posts in that thread. I think they\'re pretty good.
oh yeah ! :D
Well, I kind of did not want to be the one to make a thread like this, but then again it is something I want to discuss. We\'ve been going over it to some extent in the \'PS3 spec upgrade\' thread but I\'d like to isolate focus onto the RSX alone, and what some recent developments with the G70 might mean for it.
I wanted to post some insights last night to get discussion rolling but thought I might as well take the time to work it into a full article, which I have since done. Anyway to keep the discussion to the things in which I have the most interest, here are the relevent RSX \'extrapolation\' parts, rather than re-posting:
Quote:
...First and foremost, for anyone that has been wondering whether or not it would be possible for Sony to reach it\'s stated goal of 550 MHz with RSX, this release should put those fears firmly to rest. Not only has NVidia been able to do it with a 110nm chip (RSX will be 90nm), they have done it without any of the advanced low-k and silicon-on-insulator (SOI) technologies Sony will be using. In fact since the first leaks of the GTX512\'s performance began to emerge a week ago, the tenor of the discussion has changed noticeably from wondering whether Sony would meet the 550 MHz clock in the first place to wondering how much they might exceed it by.
Unfortunately, it\'s not as simple as that. Remember that although PC cards can have relatively large cooling solutions attached and benefit from operation within the spacious confines (comparatively) of a PC, the heat and power restrictions placed on RSX will be much more severe. There is no doubt at this point that RSX could be clocked well beyond 550 MHz, but that doesn\'t mean it will be. Low-k and SOI will reduce power requirements (and thus heat) by a good bit, as will the move to a 90nm process, but remember applied voltage will play a very large role in determining just how \'hot\' the chip will run. With a stated goal of 550 MHz and an architectural base with seeming room for speed, Sony will certainly have some options open to them. At the end of the day though, expect them to clock the RSX at the highest clock achievable at the same voltage at which they can comfortably reach 550 MHz. Maybe this means 550, maybe it means 560, maybe it means 600 MHz - who knows? Of course it can work in reverse, too. If Sony finds that going from 530 or 540 MHz to 550 is a full step in voltage, they may just opt to clock it a couple of MHz lower and save on power and heat. Indeed due to yield issues with the original EmotionEngine, Kutaragi launched the PS2 with a larger power supply and CPU voltage than he had originally desired, something which let\'s us know that such concerns feature prominently in SCE\'s thinking.
Increased clockspeeds aren\'t the only thing that we can be hopeful of receiving in terms of PS3 upgrades though. With ATI\'s new x1800 cards and the new GTX512, we are seeing a new class of GDDR3 memory entering the fray. 1.1ns RAM modules from Samsung and others have the potential to reliably reach speeds of 1800 MHz (DDR) and are being featured prominently in all of these new cards. Such memory was not available at the time of the XBox 360 and Sony PS3 E3 announcements, when the best memory available was indeed the GDDR3 memory they announced with. With it\'s later launch, Sony now has the opportunity to upgrade the class of GDDR3 it is using in the PS3 should it choose to do so. At what we can only assume would be a nominal increased cost over the memory presently slated to be used, RSX would gain access to greater memory bandwidth, something that has been seen by some as a potential bottleneck. This is not to say that they will of course, but the option is there where it wasn\'t before.
To end, some of the most exciting possibilities concerning the RSX don\'t come from analysis of the G70 itself at all, but from talk of certain changes the 90nm revision of G70 is rumored to feature. In addition to theorizing that the 90nm revision of the chip will sport a full eight pixel quads (32 pixel pipes) and 10 vertex shaders, Josh Walrath at Penstar Systems indicates that NVidia may be reworking the anti-aliasing unit in the 90nm revision in order to allow for multi-sample anti-aliasing and HDR lighting to be implemented concurrently. There is also talk that texture filtering may be raised back up to pre-NV40 series levels. If true, we might expect any or all of these architectural improvements to find their way into the RSX - something that all those anticipating the PS3 should find fairly exciting.
At the moment all of the above is all speculation. But with G70 our only tangible hardware lead into what RSX may eventually turn out to be, at the very least it is informed speculation.
Earlier this year Sony announced that final dev kits will begin shipping to PS3 developers this December, and that those dev kits will include functional RSX chips. It\'s hard right now in this information void we find ourselves to say whether those dev kits are getting set to ship or not - indeed we don\'t even have full confirmation that RSX has even taped out - but perhaps once those development kits do start shipping, we will gain a little more insight into just what exactly the RSX is...
http://psinext.e-mpire.com/index.php?categoryid=3&m_articles_articleid=264
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25664
This is for you Fasty ;)
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Wow that was an interesting read. Some nice speculation there. I like this part
In addition to theorizing that the 90nm revision of the chip will sport a full eight pixel quads (32 pixel pipes) and 10 vertex shaders, Josh Walrath at Penstar Systems indicates that NVidia may be reworking the anti-aliasing unit in the 90nm revision in order to allow for multi-sample anti-aliasing and HDR lighting to be implemented concurrently. There is also talk that texture filtering may be raised back up to pre-NV40 series levels. If true, we might expect any or all of these architectural improvements to find their way into the RSX - something that all those anticipating the PS3 should find fairly exciting.
I’m trying not to get my hopes up, but.. :D I like the sound of that.
Thanks for posting that, Bizio. :)
Oh and about the PS3 copy protection stuff, SCEE has made a statement.
Sony responds to PlayStation 3 DRM rumor
Sony has dispelled the rumor that the PlayStation 3 would make use of a new DRM system that would prevent gamers from playing used games. A SCEE spokesperson recently stated, “this is false speculation… PlayStation 3 software will not be copy protected to a single machine but will be playable on any PlayStation 3 console.” Rumor extinguished.
http://joystiq.com/entry/1234000213068073/
Happy days. :D
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Personally I don\'t think Sony should hurry. Why rush for Spring when the winter could allow them to impliment many of these features.
I\'m really not in a hurry for a PS3, and when it does launch I want it to be all that.
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^ Who are you?
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and why didn\'t you post in your birthday thread....
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Originally posted by ddaryl
Personally I don\'t think Sony should hurry. Why rush for Spring when the winter could allow them to impliment many of these features.
I\'m really not in a hurry for a PS3, and when it does launch I want it to be all that.
Yes ! exactly what I think ! ..and better launch games ! ;)
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Originally posted by Phil
and why didn\'t you post in your birthday thread....
There was a birthday thread
Sorry I feel like an ass
BUT, I\'m busy busy busy. I have been called back to work at Boeing. I\'m working graveyard, and then I work a few hours at my other job. On top of all that We\'re scrubbing the house for the holidays and getting ready for my parents visit this week.
I\'ll have to look it up.
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Hmm.. I hope they can get Rambus\' XDR memory on RSX.. so they can make the pcb as they fit since XDR doesn\'t require strict pcb layout guidelines.
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...and another interesting reading, about the extraordinary power of Cell in areas such as graphichs/rendering capabilities...
http://gametomorrow.com/blog/index.php/2005/11/30/gpus-vs-cell/
""To our surprise, well not really, we found that using only 7 SPEs for rendering a 3.2 GHz Cell chip could out run an Nvidia 7800 GT OC card at this task by about 30%. We reserved one SPE for the image compression and delivery task. Furthermore the way CG structures it SIMD computation is inefficient as it causes large percentages of the code to execute in scalar mode. This is due to the way they structure their vector data, AOS vs SOA. By converting this CG shader from AOS to SOA form, SIMD utilization was much higher which resulted in Cell out performing the Nvidia 7800 by a factor of 5 - 6x using only 7 SPEs for rendering.""
I can\'t imagine what the combination Cell/RSX will produce...:D
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I can\'t imagine what the combination Cell/RSX will produce...
Massive hype?
-
That as well. It\'s a by-product.
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
Massive hype?
I don\'t think it\'s only hype....
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-cellperf/
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg360.imageshack.us%2Fimg360%2F3042%2Fcellperf8ht.jpg&hash=f87470d9e39be7fcf761781593b0db2e8b4b0a38)[/QUOTE]
and here an interesting interview with Alex Chow on Cell Broadband Engine programming models
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/library/pa-expert8/
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Originally posted by Bobs_Hardware
Massive hype?
^^^This guy speaks the truth. Nothing but hype. I don\'t even wanna get into it. Because I don\'t expect too se the true benefits of what the cell can actually do. Til at least the next installment of playstation gaming(ps4).
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I will second that it\'s hype. Even if its performs better. So what, is that all there is? Top notch performance? There are few things that really interested me about PS3 over XBOX360 and most of them aren\'t about graphical performance such as Blu Ray add-on, HDMI connections, and can output 1080p. On the other hand, graphical performance between XBOX360 or top of the line graphic card for PC compare to PS3, I wouldn\'t worry much about it since most of it are more of hype.
I don\'t care if other disses Blu Ray for PS3, I am all for it. If PS3 can be sold at $300 without blu ray. But it will cost an additional $100 - $200 with Blu Ray drive, that\'s not a lot honestly. It will gives PS3 a huge advantage over XBOX360. Think of the capacity benefit the blu ray disc can store which can benefit both movies and videogames too.
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Honestly there has been very little hype from Sony. Most of the Hype we are reading comes from outside of the Sony camp.
if it was Sony who was releasing all these specs, like they did with the PS2, then we could say MASSIVE HYPE !.
but these are software Engineers working with the cel. So IMO its got some bite.
IMHO. MS made a huge muistake going before Sony this round. Sony knows what MS is trying to do, and Sony knows the only way to stop MS from gaining ground is too leave absolutely no doubt about which platform is more powerful and superior.
I personally believe Xbox 360 will be remembered as Xbox 1.5 in the end.
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I, too, have a feeling Sony is cooking up something special. That, or they don\'t have crap so they keep quiet.
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Originally posted by ddaryl
I personally believe Xbox 360 will be remembered as Xbox 1.5 in the end.
Its already getting the reputation of being just a beefed up version of the Xbox with the same basic parts, only upgraded. The PS3 however is completely new stuff. The PS2 was completely new. The Xbox was already made parts that were just thrown together and so is the 360.
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What the hell does "360" mean anyway?
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it means ms is going to circles
its xbox1.0 all over again!
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Originally posted by Samwise
I, too, have a feeling Sony is cooking up something special. That, or they don\'t have crap so they keep quiet.
i agree....even if sony knew what microsoft has or is doing, i think it\'s waaay too late for them to try and pull tricks out of their hat...at this point i feel they have stick to their original plan....*oh and that\'s a slick avy of the joker jumpy*....
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Sony is obviously blocking developers from releasing anything until Sony gives the green light. They are saving all the fireworks for CES or more likely the PlayStation Conference (set for Feb).
Also Sony does not want to spoil PS2 and PSP sales for the holidays by releasing PS3 info. It’s a balancing act.
After the holidays, all out assault. Price, release dates, online plans, OS features, new game announcements and so on.
It will be heaven for a starving fanboy like me. ;)
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Originally posted by ddaryl
Honestly there has been very little hype from Sony. Most of the Hype we are reading comes from outside of the Sony camp.
if it was Sony who was releasing all these specs, like they did with the PS2, then we could say MASSIVE HYPE !.
but these are software Engineers working with the cel. So IMO its got some bite.
IMHO. MS made a huge muistake going before Sony this round. Sony knows what MS is trying to do, and Sony knows the only way to stop MS from gaining ground is too leave absolutely no doubt about which platform is more powerful and superior.
I personally believe Xbox 360 will be remembered as Xbox 1.5 in the end.
I agree.I remember when PS2 tech demos surfaced and magazines and the internet were all like "PS2 can perfom graphics as good as a CGI movie, its a real time workstation" "if this is only a tech demo imagine what we are gonna get" "blah blah blah" and they formed all kinds of conlusions by themselves.
We sure got that tech demo quality after some years and games even surpassed it but hell it was people\'s own expectations that hyped it the most.
And when Kutaragi mentioned Toy Story graphics?He is not even a tech geek.Satetements like that are expected some times by people who get excited with impressive graphics and dont speak "technology".
I mean everyday people say similar things too while its far from reality.I ve seen many times people that described their own experience with the DC games as if they were as good looking as a CGI movie.They would say things like "hey did you see Sonic Adventure?It looks as good as those intro movies we used to watch on PS1 and Saturn games"
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Quddus: I didn\'t say nothing but hype.
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Originally posted by ddaryl
I personally believe Xbox 360 will be remembered as Xbox 1.5 in the end.
well, I saw some X360 games, and they look very good, but not so good to make you say :"oh! it\'s really the next gen XBox"....
"only 4 years" between the two...and yes, it seems like a super boosted XBox, an XBox 1.5...:(......
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And what\'s weird about that is I\'ve heard recently that Revolution is comparable to a "souped up Xbox" but not quite X360.
That\'s what I thought X360 was.
Technology is slowing down. Innovation has to move quicker.
Xbox Live and the Revolution controller are two good steps.
-Dan
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I think we will see the true power of the PS3 in 3-4 years... look at the games on PS2 now. The first games didn\'t look like the ones from today and so they wont on PS3.
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^ You can\'t copy paste that situation.
Like you said yourself ; devs have become savvy at developing for PS2. PS3 is in line with multithreaded coding like the EE requires.
Furthermore, the whole pc industry is, as we speak, shifting towards multicore. AMD\'s X2\'s are a huge succes and Intel\'s roadmap shows the have 65nm plans for quad or even eight core chips.
Then there\'s Nvidia\'s counter to Ati\'s \'XT1900XT\' in 06 ; it\'s rumoured RSX might be closer to Nvidia\'s 90nm than the current 110nm 7800\'s.
Of course, Sony\'s quiet becuz there might have been some hickups or slowdowns in PS3 development, but logic suggests ppl are very much underestimating what SOny will come up with.
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Originally posted by THE EYE
I think we will see the true power of the PS3 in 3-4 years... look at the games on PS2 now. The first games didn\'t look like the ones from today and so they wont on PS3.
I feel 2nd gen PS3 games will make latest PS2 games look like atari 2600 games...that\'s what I feel...from the latest rumors I heard about PS3 specs...and I agree with Knotter8...
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...and the latest about Power consumption of the Playstation 3’s Cell processor...(Dec 8, 2005 @ 3:25 am)
""Power consumption of the Playstation 3’s Cell processor may be reduced by up to 40%, thanks to new technologies developed by IBM and AMD.
IBM and AMD have employed two different techniques which fall into a category known as ’silicon straining’. Essentially, these techniques allow electrons to travel faster, thereby reducing a chip’s power requirements without sacrificing chip performance.
Incorporating these techniques into the Cell processor could potentially reduce its power requirements by 40%, and may in turn decrease the PS3’s heat output, thus reducing the likelihood of the console overheating.
Xbox 360 users, on the other hand, have already reported problems with the console overheating and consequent system freezes, along with loud fan noise, and the Xbox 360’s power consumption has been measured at a hefty 160 watts.
IBM and AMD have also announced that Cell chips using silicon straining will be manufactured in the latter half of 2006, and that this next generation of chips will use a 65-nanometer process, as opposed to the current 90-nanometer process.
Using a 65-nanometer process will reduce the chip’s surface area, bring the Cell chip one step closer to realizing Sony president Ken Kutaragi’s vision of Cell-powered mobile devices.""
http://www.ps3focus.com/archives/165
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Originally posted by THE EYE
I think we will see the true power of the PS3 in 3-4 years... look at the games on PS2 now. The first games didn\'t look like the ones from today and so they wont on PS3.
True but I\'m not sure if that will be the same for the PS3. We\'ll see though.
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...and it\'s curious...technology from the Sony/Toshiba design into the Nvidia/Sony RSX design ?! ...there\'s a lot of talk lately about the RSX being a multi core GPU, and SPEs are well suited for multicore implementations that can take advantage of parallelism, designed to accelerate media and streaming workloads.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.axelero.hu%2Fvarga1973%2Frsx.JPG&hash=6e39ee666b82530ee90424b781472386d88a1636)
now let\'s wait and see for jenuary the 5th...:D
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Wow man!That would be awesome!If CPU performance is greatly improved with multicore architecture, imagine the combination of both multicore CPU and GPU!
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Originally posted by Unicron!
Wow man!That would be awesome!If CPU performance is greatly improved with multicore architecture, imagine the combination of both multicore CPU and GPU!
Imagine the developers cost !
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who cares! Pack as much power under the hood as possible.
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Originally posted by ddaryl
Imagine the developers cost !
that depends I think.
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LOL !
Developers need to be fiscally smart because the line between profitable, and bankruptcy can be realized much easier when costs spiral out of control.
I\'m sure Sony will have middleware from beginning to end, or there will be great opportunity for middleware companies
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Originally posted by Unicron!
that depends I think.
it depends from development tools and developers skill, but cell and a multi core GPU would perfectly work together, hope to know all specs on CES 2006...
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I\'m sure Sony will have middleware from beginning to end, or there will be great opportunity for middleware companies
No doubt about that. In fact, Sony have recently combined their entire software development studios under one entity which is definately a nice step considering technology will be shared among them to produce better results and bring down costs somewhat.
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Originally posted by BizioEE
it depends from development tools and developers skill, but cell and a multi core GPU would perfectly work together, hope to know all specs on CES 2006...
specs are nice, but playable games is were the proof is.
No playables no spring launch, playables means a possible spring launch
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specs are nice, but playable games is were the proof is
I disagree
MGS2 and The Bouncer are all the proof I need there is not going to be any bait and switch from Sony this gen.
MGS2; all the naysaying about MGS4 is an exact repeat of what went on when MGS2 was first shown, which actually turned out better than that first preview.
The Bouncer; yes we got ripped off on the interactive environment, it took too long to come out, not the best game either but I still have the pre-launch clips that had me excited and there is no question the game shown then didn\'t suffer any downgrade in looks once it was finally released.
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Sorry. Nothing exists unitl it truly exists IMO.
I\'ll never fully accept what has been showned until its playable. Proof is in the puddin.
I have no trouble believing Sony will hit and exceed targets. I just won\'t buy fully into the theory until it\'s fact.
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If you\'re going to speak in absolutes then of course I can\'t very well argue.
Visually meeting the targets presented is all I meant to get across so I take it you agree with me to a point. I can tell you right now I won’t be buying a new system just for the same old gameplay with an upgrade in looks so withholding judgment until games are playable only makes good sense. There are only a handful of games this gen that are even close to taking gamers to the next level gameplay wise imo so prospects of seeing much early on in that regard are somewhat bleak. I really hope I’m wrong. Starved as I am for HD visuals having a BR player has me excited for the PS3 launch more than games so far and that just doesn’t seem right. Hope that changes for me with the next PR blitz from Sony.
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Well, as a 3D dude i can only say that the MGS4 trailer and realtime demo presentation look absolutely viable.
I can see how the models are built polygon-wise ; the Snake model is actually very conservative when it comes to polygon count.
I saw engine demo\'s during my time at Streamline studios with ultra cool physics running on mere AMD64 workstations with a 6800GT ; cows which you could pull apart with the mouse cursor.
Then there\'s project Offset ; upcoming pc game which uses object based motion blur . Until now, most cgi blur is actually 2D.
Project Offset will be playable on affordable pc\'s.
My point is ; MGS4 graphics in game, with all the AI and physics going on will be doable for most PS3 devs.
Anyone who can\'t comprehend the working of such graphics makes a complete fool out of himself by saying that won\'t be possible in PS3 games.
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Originally posted by Heretic
If you\'re going to speak in absolutes then of course I can\'t very well argue.
Yeah I\'m an absolutes man these days. No real reason to argue with fanlads of other consoles because they keep using the proof rebutttal, and won\'t except anything until its true
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DECEMBER 22, 2005
-------------------------
"the machine we have is 10 times slower than the PS3 should be..."
...that\'s the latest I read....
But at this point, nobody besides Sony has any idea what the Cell will allow the PS3 to do. Game developers say they haven\'t seen a prototype that comes close to the blazing processing speeds and life-like graphics of the commercial-ready console Sony is promising. Though Sony declines to comment on such complaints, in November it failed to deliver on a promise to send game creators an upgraded prototype containing a graphics chip made by Santa Clara (Calif.)-based nVidia (NVDA).
Without the souped-up graphics chip, "the machine we have is 10 times slower than the PS3 should be," says an exec at a game software maker who spoke on condition of anonymity. "The graphics chip was supposed to be ready by November. But we\'re still waiting."
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/dec2005/tc20051222_242937.htm
...just for a nice reading...
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:eek: What a fvcked up article ! Makes zero sense.
That dev quote lays bare EXACTLY what he\'s doing wrong ; relying his game code
on purely the (devkit) GPU (while that one is no slouch for ff-ing sure).
In other words ; They\'re not optimizing multithread code (if at all) for Cell while that is the point of having such a multicore cpu. For each sucha quote I can find five other dev quotes about the PS3 dev kit saying the opposite.
Also, why is the article pitching Intel\'s P4 as the platform for Cell to best !? :confused: Apples to ..... say it damnit !
Read this and be enlightened about the Pentium 4 (http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/pentium-2.ars/1)
And we all know who has the current crown in desktop computing. We have an A and a M and a Deeeeeee !
No my dear friends, this article from Businessweek is incoherent garble from
the viewpoint of panicky stockholders.
This is a money article. Technically it makes no sense.
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news about Nvidia G71, G80...
G71 will be based on 90nm technology and pressumably get a GPU frequency at about 750MHz, in other words incredibly fast! G71 will according to nvnews will be called 7900 Ultra and appear on the market around April, 2006.
http://www.nordichardware.com/news,2583.html
Can\'t wait to know what PS3 RSX will share with these new GPU...\'cause you can bet they will share a lot, that\'s what I think...
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or...our beloved RSX could be a custom G70 as the main processor, with the custom G70 core controlling 4-6 specailized multi-purpose multi-way programmable core( vertex shadering, pixel shading, lighting,etc), as the PPE in the Cell can control the SPE ! ...it could be the way Sony/Nvidia conceived their customized GPU !
(taken from PSINEXT forum)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg523.imageshack.us%2Fimg523%2F615%2Frsx6hb.jpg&hash=650db5e1dadce592b06947d8f0e48cbd2896f18d)
What do you think about it ? an\'you Faston ? :)
Happy new year to everybody !
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Looks like big PS3 troubles (http://theinquirer.net/?article=28656)
Although I don\'t think it\'s bad thing for PS3 to launch late.
"Do something right or don\'t do it at all".
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http://theinquirer.net/?article=28656
well given the source I doubt it holds any real truth.
however I fully expect the PS3 to launch in NA in late 2006 at best.
IMO why should Sony hurry. The PS2 still outsells all competitiors. Sony would be wise to take their time and build a truly powerful machine with the extra time.
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Originally posted by ddaryl
http://theinquirer.net/?article=28656
well given the source I doubt it holds any real truth.
however I fully expect the PS3 to launch in NA in late 2006 at best.
IMO why should Sony hurry. The PS2 still outsells all competitiors. Sony would be wise to take their time and build a truly powerful machine with the extra time.
so true ddaryl !!!;)
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They should not hurry, but wurry... a bit.
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Originally posted by Knotter8
They should not hurry, but wurry... a bit.
from what I heard there\'s nothing to worry about...
but sure I\'m a bit disappointed from this CES 2006, no PS3 surprises, no info about the RSX, almost nothing new, apart from Sony reconfirming PS3 release this year and 4000 software development kits shipped worldwide...and then they showed the trailers we already saw at last E3 (MotorStorm, Formula 1, Vision Gran Turismo, Lair, and Warhawk )
Kaz Hirai and Howard Stringer talk about PlayStation 3 at CES 2006 Keynote address...
http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/index.html
When the subject did turn to the PlayStation 3, Hirai offered no major new information. He did say that the console is a "key pillar of Sony growth in 2006"--reconfirming its release this year--and said Sony has shipped out 4,000 software development kits for the console worldwide. Otherwise, though, Hirai merely restated previously known information about the PS3. He said its CPU, the vaunted Cell processor, would use only seven of its eight cores, and, yes, the console would be backward-compatible with both PS2 and original PlayStation games.
Hirai\'s multimedia presentation also contained nothing new about the PS3. After running through a series of slides showing a nonfunctioning PS3 console and its controversial "batarang" controller, the lights dimmed. Then trailers for MotorStorm, Formula 1, Vision Gran Turismo, Lair, and Warhawk were shown--the same trailers Sony showed at E3 last May. The only one with any discernible additions was Vision Gran Turismo, which had a flashy new introduction.
Gamespot
hope to know something next month...
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Ok, but i think we can sum this up real easy :
"Next Gen\'s too early for Sony"
At least, when we take Xbox360\'s schedule as THE definate timeline of
next gen.
What\'s \'hurting\' Sony is that media
don\'t usually make this distinction
and thus artificially create (also a
reaction/side effect to hype indeed)
the consensus that PS3 is a sitting
duck.
The Revolution hasn\'t shown ANY games
either and it\'ll be \'late\' as well.
It has the advantage though
that ppl are already very fond of the
new interface.
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Originally posted by Knotter8
They should not hurry, but wurry... a bit.
Why ?
Sony\'s PS2, and PSP are destroying the Xbox 360.
As long as Sony launches before 2007 they\'ll have nothing to worry about. if they launch in 2007 then they\'ll have to make some adjustments to their plan, but still won\'t have to worry too much.
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Originally posted by ddaryl
Why ?
Sony\'s PS2, and PSP are destroying the Xbox 360.
You\'re only talking the consumer side of the story.
The way developers / publishers will handle PS3 is just as, if not more, important.
The rumour, that Sony hasn\'t figured out the Cell to RSX config yet and has only shipped version 1.0 dev kits, doesn\'t help building a better PS3 foundation.
I\'m sure Sony is worrying a bit, and they should.
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Originally posted by Knotter8
You\'re only talking the consumer side of the story.
You mean the only side that matters? We all know the bitching early on from devs about their struggles with PS2 was all too real. Obviously it had no impact on the final outcome.Originally posted by Knotter8 The rumour, that Sony hasn\'t figured out the Cell to RSX config yet and has only shipped version 1.0 dev kits, doesn\'t help building a better PS3 foundation.
Rumors are rumours. The catch-22 is anyone in a position to knowingly confirm or deny that the latest dev kits haven\'t shipped can\'t because doing so would break their NDA.
Take 2 says they expect PS3 to launch in October (I assume they mean US launch). That\'s good enough for me to think there is not much for Sony to worry about.
If Sony doesn\'t launch in Japan by spring then we\'ll know you might be onto something. Until then, I say pfft to these negative rumours.
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Everyone is going to pissed off when ps3 finally shows it\'s capability. You all are putting faith that you will see these mind blowing graphics way far behind what we have seen so far from 360.
Well not me. I don\'t expect to see toy story graphics til at least PS4.
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I don\'t need mind blowing I just need something more than the 360 is showing right now and have no doubt we\'ll see it.
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Originally posted by Heretic
I don\'t need mind blowing I just need something more than the 360 is showing right now and have no doubt we\'ll see it.
it seems the RSX has taped out now, and it should be a different GPU from G70, I mean, the core seems to be a custom G70 plus 4 to 6 SPE-like DSPs, one of these being reserved for redundancy to increase yields, like the CELL...and yes, PS3 will be more more powerful than X360, and it\'s a must for a console which will be released 1 year later, more or less.....and yes, you can bet PS3 will produce better graphics !
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Originally posted by BizioEE
it seems the RSX has taped out now, and it should be a different GPU from G70, I mean, the core seems to be a custom G70 plus 4 to 6 SPE-like DSPs, one of these being reserved for redundancy to increase yields, like the CELL...and yes, PS3 will be more more powerful than X360, and it\'s a must for a console which will be released 1 year later, more or less.....and yes, you can bet PS3 will produce better graphics !
How much more powerful do you think it will be? They are not going to raise any specs. If they do they will have to sell that thing for 6-700$. There is noway that is going to happen. PS3 would be doomed from the start.
I am already pissed at a $400 xbox360 price.
I expect finals specs will be more reasonable. PS3 will be more powerful than xbox360 but nothing to the affect of what everyone is hoping for. There is noway we are going to see leaps and bounds ahead of 360 in terms of graphics. It just ain\'t gonna happen.
I am setting myself up to not be disappointed.
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Originally posted by QuDDus
It just ain\'t gonna happen.
Lol. I bet alot of ppl to just hope it won\'t happen cuz they\'ll regret pumping so much money into Xbox360.
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Originally posted by Knotter8
Lol. I bet alot of ppl to just hope it won\'t happen cuz they\'ll regret pumping so much money into Xbox360.
first of all I don\'t even have a 360 and don\'t plan on getting one anytime soon. I am just being realistic. I don\'t see ps3 having graphics way beyond xbox360. I am expecting both console to be close in graphics.
I am choosing ps3 because I know it will have the better library of games.
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Originally posted by QuDDus
first of all I don\'t even have a 360 and don\'t plan on getting one anytime soon. I am just being realistic. I don\'t see ps3 having graphics way beyond xbox360. I am expecting both console to be close in graphics.
I am choosing ps3 because I know it will have the better library of games.
And I\'m sure it won\'t have anywhere near as many problems in its life as the 360 so far has had.
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*loooks at shitty PS2*
I wouldn\'t put money on the first gen of PS3\'s not having issues....
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Stop this nonsence and buy the console as soon as possible.Someone needs to support the console I ll own in the future. :D
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Originally posted by Titan
And I\'m sure it won\'t have anywhere near as many problems in its life as the 360 so far has had.
unfortunately the amount of R&D needed to perfect these gaming consoles pretty much assures there will be problems early on in one form or another.
I would have to say, buyer beware. However I\'m always an early adopter. My launch Ps2 still runs although I have to adjust the laser occasionally, and My Xbox 360 has been issue free thus far.
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Originally posted by ddaryl
unfortunately the amount of R&D needed to perfect these gaming consoles pretty much assures there will be problems early on in one form or another.
I would have to say, buyer beware. However I\'m always an early adopter. My launch Ps2 still runs although I have to adjust the laser occasionally, and My Xbox 360 has been issue free thus far.
True that about the launch PS2. I had the very first model and got it around Xmas time that year. I had many problems with disc read errors. After I adjusted the laser height, its been problem free.
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I found very interesting thoughts about the RSX here, by a very very well informed guy...
http://ps3forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=13393&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
... Nvidia themselves said there are alot of similiarities(between the RSX and the 7800). Its just those people coming in thinking the RSX is just a 7800 with a new name that took Nvidia and Sony 4 years to come up with. Thats the main kicker. Heres Nvidia, with internal knowledge of how Cell is working for all these years ... why wouldn\'t they implement some of the obvious advantages of the Cell architecture and bring it over to the GPU world? Cell itself is a highly capable GPU, never forget that part of the equation. But the Cells internal bandwidth, specialized SPE\'s for breaking down floating point code in parallel, MFC, EIB network creating all that internal bandwidth and everything else pretty much changed everything. Why wouldn\'t Nvidia simply enhance its G70 with the internal bandwidth speeds of the EIB ring, and bring in what is needed most in GPU\'s today, specialized processors to handle the complex code breakup of the shaders. Doing that would ease alot of stress from the G70 core and allow it to do exactly what its meant to do, push out polygons in mass quantities.
At first, Sony wanted a dual Cell system, but the programming change would have been too great. So they bring in Nvidia along with their OpenGL language, Nvidia continues its work on the G70 line of cards ( are most likely, the G71 ) and they use the design of Cell as a backbone of the RSX and implement all the advantages of the Cell network into the GPU. So instead of having a monster at calculations like Cell, you have a monster at graphics like the G70, but instead of specialized vector processors, you have specialized Shading processors and the EIB to throw in the added 208GB of internal bandwidth to finish off the whole thing. So Sony did get their Dual Cell, just with Nvidias knowledge of programming languages.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gzeasy.com%2Fours%2Fedison%2Frsx_e3_slide_huang.png&hash=967841263b87aff5cd16401294aebbcc5baa3de4)
Yes, your reading that right, it says PROCESSORS .... not pipelines. Making that 6 SME design post awhile back much more reliable and realistic.(I posted the picture in this thread)
Somehow I missed this, but Nvidia told us way back at E3 that the RSX would be a mult-processor design, we just didn\'t catch it. Or atleast, some of us did but it got buried under everything else from the time.
So, wow, let that speculation begin once again.
Notice also, how they state " incredible system throughput ".Now throughput is simply the speed of data trasmission internally in a processor (among other things in the world ). Why would Nvidia even speak on this issue? We\'ve all seen the internal bandwidth of a 7800, and its nothing special. BUT, if they used the other designs EIB, that would be something you could call " incredible system throughput ". And actually use as a centerpoint of your GPU design.
read all the "udontneed2know" posts, if you\'re interested...very interesting...the RSX with an architecture similar to the Cell(and knowing Sony it could easy happen), as I\'ve already posted...but more and more thoughts are all simply converging in this way...(beyond3d, forums.e-mpire, ps3forums,etc )
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PS3 is still very much vapor ware to the public. It might become ultimate it might become not.
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Originally posted by QuDDus
first of all I don\'t even have a 360 and don\'t plan on getting one anytime soon. I am just being realistic. I don\'t see ps3 having graphics way beyond xbox360. I am expecting both console to be close in graphics.
I am choosing ps3 because I know it will have the better library of games.
qdog summed it up perfectly here. i don\'t see much difference in graphic quality either. only thing i\'m bankin\' on is for the ps3 to have a better library as well...oh and qdog, keep that avy forever!...:fro:
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Originally posted by clips
qdog summed it up perfectly here. i don\'t see much difference in graphic quality either. only thing i\'m bankin\' on is for the ps3 to have a better library as well...oh and qdog, keep that avy forever!...:fro:
It\'s too early to quantify difference in graphics...we\'re just speculating about RSX architecture...
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http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=51151
Interesting reading about patents which may deal with or about PS3 hardware...thanks to Nerve-Damage !
that\'s a lot of stuff, like Method and apparatus for real-time global illumination incorporating stream processor based hybrid ray tracing
A method for calculating a lighting function for an object to be rendered using a basis function is provided. The method includes calculating a transfer function approximation of the lighting function through a stream processor. A method for presenting lighting characteristics associated with a display object in real-time and a method for determining secondary illumination features for an object to be displayed are also provided. A computer readable medium and a computing device having a graphics processing unit capable of determining lighting characteristics for an object in real time are also included.
and like...
Method and apparatus for self shadowing and self interreflection light capture
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=7&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=%22Sony+Computer+Entertainment%22&s2=GPU&OS="Sony+Computer+Entertainment"+AND+GPU&RS="Sony+Computer+Entertainment"+AND+GPU
it\'s really an interesting thread...
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And these are really interesting news about AI on PS3...
Kynogon Joins PlayStation 3 Tools & Middleware Program
Kynogon has announced Kynapse support for Sony Computer Entertainment Inc.\'s Tools & Middleware program for PlayStation 3. Game developers for PlayStation 3 will be able to access all Kynapse functionalities and tools to create non-player characters with advanced behavior.
The French-headquartered AI company recently completed a new financing round close to $3 million USD. Financing was led by new investor Innovacom along with current investor CapDecisif. Proceeds from the fundraising are being used to open an office in North America and to build on Kynapse, Kynogon\'s A.I. product.
Kynapse 4.0, which will support the PlayStation 3, introduces technology called "Large scale A.I." The new technology is meant to address specific AI needs, such as existing algorithms limitations when dealing with large, detailed, terrains and huge numbers of NPCs; handling megabytes of AI data at runtime; getting NPCs to understand their environment topographically, and how to take advantage of the PS3 architecture.
The Kynapse 4.0 A.I. data will include both 3D mesh and graph based descriptions, and its hierarchical structure will allow streaming and parallel computations. 3D pathfinding and perception algorithms have also been adapted to fit the new data model.
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=7940
I\'m happy to see all the support Sony\'re giving to developers !:)
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Originally posted by BizioEE
I\'m happy to see all the support Sony\'re giving to developers !:)
Yeah quite a difference compared to the rushed PS2.
Very limited software support back then, I read even the manuals were incomplete. :laughing:
This is how its supposed to be done.. They bought SN Systems, they have Epic, Havoc, AEGIA, Speedtree etc. on board.
Btw, a cool tidbit from the official Killzone forums.
"as for the PS2 vs PS3 development question. I was chatting to Michiel and he was telling me how crazy-easy it was compared to the PS2 and how much quicker things have been going for them. I will take his word on that"
Posted by the lead tester. :)
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"YESSS!" -- Napoleon Dynamite
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Originally posted by fastson
Yeah quite a difference compared to the rushed PS2.
Very limited software support back then, I read even the manuals were incomplete. :laughing:
This is how its supposed to be done.. They bought SN Systems, they have Epic, Havoc, AEGIA, Speedtree etc. on board.
Btw, a cool tidbit from the official Killzone forums.
Posted by the lead tester. :)
Hey Fastson can you post a link of the boards where the lead designer talks?
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Originally posted by fastson
Yeah quite a difference compared to the rushed PS2.
Very limited software support back then, I read even the manuals were incomplete. :laughing:
This is how its supposed to be done.. They bought SN Systems, they have Epic, Havoc, AEGIA, Speedtree etc. on board.
Btw, a cool tidbit from the official Killzone forums.
Posted by the lead tester. :)
Thanks Fasty :) ....let us know everything please !
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Words from Factor 5 !
Watching the Show Dragon
The thing most people probably came for, though, was the dragons. Worch had little to say about the actual game he has been working on – now titled Lair – though he used the models all throughout the lecture. One of the key models was a maquette (built by Peter Konig at Massive Black, the man behind the Dragonheart models); another, a digital render. The final version used in the game, Worch said, was a blend of the best parts from each: a practical body and limbs, and a digital head, tail, and wings.
He played a recent extremely high-resolution trailer in real-time, occasionally pausing to swing the camera around or turn on or off various effects. To be fair, the scene in question was clearly a cut-scene, calculated to show off just how many polygons the PS3 can throw around; it\'s still a lot of polygons, though.
Each model, Worch claimed, contained somewhere between 100,000 and 170,000 triangles. Each had a bunch of other special maps and lighting applied, and the main character was built up with "over ten textures". He compared this to an estimated 10,000 for characters in Gears of War and other recent high-res games. The high-res models, meanwhile, that got dithered down to produce the in-game models, ran up around 5,000,000 triangles.
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051007/waugh_01.shtml
just to show a hors-d\'oeuvre of PS3 polygons capabilities...:D
and...Rogue Squadron developer hiring for further PS3 projects !!!
Factor 5, the US development house behind such Star Wars hits as Rogue Squadron III: Rebel Strike and Rogue Leader, is advertising for new PS3 development positions on its website - prompting us to ponder just what they might have in the works.
Factor 5 is already working on an original and platform-exclusive game for PlayStation 3 called Lair which is an intriguing dragon-themed game, featuring lots of cool looking winged reptiles. However, with a bunch of openings available for experienced devs, including a senior game programmer, it looks like Factor 5 has something else big in the works.
Of course, we\'d love to be able to tell you that it was a PS3 version of the splendid Rogue series, but that would be utter speculation; and since the dev mentions in its advert that it\'s "now developing original properties for the next generation of console systems", that would appear to rule out a further Star Wars title.
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/front_index.php?
(look at the NEWS)
Any bet about the new Factor 5 project ?
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as Fasty already made it clear
"as for the PS2 vs PS3 development question. I was chatting to Michiel and he was telling me how crazy-easy it was compared to the PS2 and how much quicker things have been going for them. I will take his word on that"
PS3 seems to be not as complicated to write for as we\'ve all been led to believe !
read this...
Possession and the art of PS3 programming
I spent much of last December writing a preview of PS3 zombie shocker, Possession, for the Official PlayStation 2 magazine. The game is a mouth-watering mix of survival horror adventure and squad-based shooter, with you commanding a ravenous undead army against a city stuffed with civilians, cops and soldiers.
The magazine is now out on the shelves, so I can finally talk about meeting up with Possession developer, Volatile, and chatting about what it\'s like to write games for Sony\'s next-gen hardware. At the time, the team were working with an emulator rather than a full PS3 dev kit, but already seemed comfortable with the peculiarities of the multi-processor behemoth.
Of course every developer is going to have a different take on PS3, but this is what one of them had to say...
First of all, as with Killzone developer Guerrilla in a recent online Q&A sesh, they were happy to point out that PS3 is not as complicated to write for as we\'ve all been led to believe. Apparently, the machine\'s use of Open GL as its graphics API means that anyone who\'s ever written games for the PC will be intimately familiar with the set-up. In fact, PS3 employs a cut-down version named Open GL ES, which is even simpler - as Volatile\'s lead PS3 programmer, Lyndon Homewood explained:
"ES is designed for things like set-top boxes and mobile phones, where you want the fundamental graphics but don\'t need some of the fringe stuff that Open GL has. Because you\'ve got that on PS3, it\'s going to be much easier than the PS2 to get something up and running - there are hundreds of books out there for it, so you can do your background reading. All the documentation is there."
We also got onto talking about how PS3 will deal with Cg - a version of the programming language C, which allows developers to code for advanced graphics processing units, specifically in the area of 3D shaders. (You can read more about Cg here and here).
http://developer.nvidia.com/page/cg_main.html
"The graphics capabilities of PS3 will, I think, be slightly above the absolutely top-end graphics cards on the PC, but you\'ve got much more processing power in the box so you\'re going to see a lot more physics, a lot more generated geometry. With water ripples, for example - they\'re pretty much algorithms, you have a flat plane of triangles and you run some sort of mathematical algorithm over it to generate a surface rippling effect - well, you will have the processing power to do these sorts of generated geometry effects On PS3. You could actually put one chip aside just to do that..."
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/games/archives/2006/01/27/possession_and_the_art_of_ps3_programming.html
have a nice reading...
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The funny thing is though.... the Cg language was very much hyped by Nvidia back in the days of NV30 (Geforce FX5800) and but of course aimed at pro users of 3D programs to code shader language.
We all know how the pc games market picked up DX9 Direct 3D.
So it seems Cg is trying a revival on PS3 graphics coding ? lol.
I do believe PS3 graphics will be powerfull though. Just watch Cebit in march for the launch of Nvidia\'s 7900 cards and it might give a hint about PS3 visuals.
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Originally posted by Unicron!
Hey Fastson can you post a link of the boards where the lead designer talks?
Sure. :)
Here is the forums: http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board?board.id=killzone
Topics: ASK THE DEV TEAM - PART X (lost track of the count) ;-) (http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=killzone&message.id=71586) and YET ANOTHER "ASK THE DEV TEAM" THREAD... (http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=killzone&message.id=77144)
Here is where motherh (Guerrilla Lead Tester) mentions what I quoted earlier.
http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=killzone&message.id=71586&view=by_date_ascending&page=69
If you go a few pages back you\'ll see some posts by one of the programmers are Guerrilla (his username is Michiel and his posts are IMO the most interesting).
Thanks for the articles Biz. The PS3 does seem a lot “nicer” compared to PS2. ;)
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thanks :)
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Originally posted by Unicron!
thanks :)
Yep ! thanks Fasty !:)
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Official PS3 specs (http://playstation.com/products.html)
The main XDRAM is clocked very fast @ 3,2 Ghz. I don\'t understand then why the main memory bandwidth is a mere 25,6Gb.
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Sweet. And it says spring 2006? Its getting released then?
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maybe in japland... but I doubt even that
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yea, i think the "spring release" is just a marketing strategy. People on the verge of getting an xbox360 will hold off and think "ill just wait a couple months for a better ps3"...then spring comes and they delay it till christmas and people will be like "i waited this long..might as well wait till christmas"
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September is the word.
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Nvidia\'s RSX graphics chip for the PS3 is done !
...and A Clue From Nvidia On PlayStation 3 Schedule :
Graphics chip maker Nvidia reported today that it doesn\'t anticipate any royalties from Sony during the current fiscal quarter which closes at the end of April. In a conference call, Chief Financial Officer Marv Burkett made the statement. Jen-Hsun Huang, CEO, said that he couldn\'t talk about the schedule for the PlayStation 3. He said that Nvidia\'s RSX graphics chip for the PS 3 is done and the company has production silicon for it.
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/2006/02/a_clue_from_nvi.html
Now let\'s wait and see when Sony will decide to show us all the details of the beautiful GPU ;)
and...GDC 2006: PS3 Keynote Announced
Phil Harrison to speak about going "Beyond the Box."
February 16, 2006 - The official GDC newsletter has announced that Sony Computer Entertainment Worldwide Studios President, Phil Harrison, will be holding a keynote address on March 22. To focus on the creative, technical, and business opportunities that PS3 presents, the hour-long presentation will be titled "PlayStation 3: Beyond the Box" and is expected to be one of the most popular keynotes of the Game Developers Conference.
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2289&Itemid=2
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Nvidia Hints No PS3 In Spring !
In a conference call yesterday, Nvidia mentioned that it did not expect to earn any royalties from Sony during this fiscal quarter which ends in April. No royalties mean no manufacturing of PlayStation 3 components, and therefore no PS3, at least not by April. Sony has continued to tout a Spring 2006 release for the PS3, but at the Taipei Game Show today Sony seemed to waver, saying instead that the console would launch “in 2006.”
No playable PlayStation 3 games are on hand at the Taipei Game Show, so eager gamers will have to wait for E3 to see the console in action. It seems a Spring 2006 launch is certainly not likely for the console, so stay tuned for a more concrete announcement on a release date as soon as it is available.
http://news.gaminghorizon.com/media2/1140232380.3455.html
I want PS3 perfect, with no rash launch games, and perfect balanced hardware with nice "final touches" :)...maybe the end of May or june for Jap ? or Fall ?...who knows...let\'s wait and see...
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Newest rumor is Sept 16 fot Japan and Sept 21 for USA, with Europe seeing a November Launch.
These dates strike me as believable. Sony is already producing PS3 components and IMO will be ready for final assembly soon. This gives them time to stock pile units and explode onto the scene with a large library of games and plenty of systems.
It also allows Sony plenty of time to re-stock stores for the Holiday season. If all goes well I believe Sony will smash every launch day sales record.
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Latest rumors fueled by an independant guess-estimate by Merrill lynch says that the PS3 will cost $900 (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/02/18/playstation-3-estimated-to-cost-900-per-unit/) per unit. I personally will eat my hat if it retails anywhere near that much.
Keep in mind this is a third party estimate, with no actual insider info, but it does pose an interesting question. Will sony release this year and take big losses, or delay and let the cost of production drop before release?
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Is that the cost of production or the price it will be sold at?
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Originally posted by Unicron!
Is that the cost of production or the price it will be sold at?
I think $900 would be considered price of production. That is what I am t hinking. If that was the price of the console they wouldn\'t sell very many units. And seeing that $900 is the price of production how big of a hit is sony willing to take on each unit?
ps3 has to retail for $399.99. Sony is going to have to take a huge hit on each console. You know microsoft will be trying to lower the price of 360 buy the time ps3 starts to launch.
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Originally posted by QuDDus
I think $900 would be considered price of production. That is what I am t hinking. If that was the price of the console they wouldn\'t sell very many units. And seeing that $900 is the price of production how big of a hit is sony willing to take on each unit?
If I remember well PS2 initially costed around $750 to produce.And despite the great sales Sony suffered huge losses for a few months until economies of scale took effect
It will take longer for them to recover now.Especially when we consider that this time around they are facing a greater competitor
ps3 has to retail for $399.99. Sony is going to have to take a huge hit on each console. You know microsoft will be trying to lower the price of 360 buy the time ps3 starts to launch. [/B]
Damn right and that was one of my initial concerns.
Things could look like Sega vs Sony.Back then Sony could reduce PS1\'s price without any problems.Sega was forced to reduce Saturn\'s price to remain competitive despite that this was hitting them badly financially.
XBOX360 I estimate it costing around $250 if the PS3 is released around July.If the release it November or even worse in 2007 they will have to compete with an even cheaper console that will be half the price of the PS3.And not only that XBOX360 will be entering its second generation of games.
If they do reduce the price too soon they will generate bigger losses that will be harder to recover from.
Keep selling the PS3 at high price and they wont be competitive.
Its a double edged sword
Only if PS3 demand is extremely and extensively high and inelastic and people are buying 2 or more games per console minimum, Sony will recover fast with minor problems to face.
If that will be the case I dont know
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Originally posted by Unicron!
If I remember well PS2 initially costed around $750 to produce.And despite the great sales Sony suffered huge losses for a few months until economies of scale took effect
It will take longer for them to recover now.Especially when we consider that this time around they are facing a greater competitor
Damn right and that was one of my initial concerns.
Things could look like Sega vs Sony.Back then Sony could reduce PS1\'s price without any problems.Sega was forced to reduce Saturn\'s price to remain competitive despite that this was hitting them badly financially.
XBOX360 I estimate it costing around $250 if the PS3 is released around July.If the release it November or even worse in 2007 they will have to compete with an even cheaper console that will be half the price of the PS3.And not only that XBOX360 will be entering its second generation of games.
If they do reduce the price too soon they will generate bigger losses that will be harder to recover from.
Keep selling the PS3 at high price and they wont be competitive.
Its a double edged sword
Only if PS3 demand is extremely and extensively high and inelastic and people are buying 2 or more games per console minimum, Sony will recover fast with minor problems to face.
If that will be the case I dont know
Thats the only advantage microsoft has going to for them. Being able to offer their console at a chaper price.
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My $0.02
Regarding the Sept Japan/US release: No way, I think the PS3 will be out late spring early summer in Japan. A sept US release sounds plausible though, EU should follow after that, hopefully November.
Regarding the nVidia “hint”: If you look closely there is no hint. We do not know what type of royalty contract Sony and nVidia have. Will nVidia get royalties as soon as a RSX is manufactured, or will they get royalties as soon as the RSX is put into a device? Maybe nVidia will get royalties per sold PS3? How long of a lag is there before Sony pays nVidia? We don’t know, so its pointless to speculate.
Btw Sony has DENIED PS3 slipping to 2007.
Regarding the laughable Merrill Lynch report: Their numbers are grabbed from the air, no one seems to take them seriously. The other report they did for PS3 BOM suggested a production price of around 494 USD, which seems closer to home. 800-900 USD is not realistic.
If you check the PDF you\'ll notice this.. They fail at BASIC math. :D
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.telia.com%2F%7Eu48019550%2Fmatte.jpg&hash=e7a03df4eb239451e4a46091fe0dd0b86d020cf0)
CELL at 230 USD? BD at 350? Maybe if Sony buys the stuff at retail. :laughing:
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:laughing:
That was funny indeed
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A question for you Euros:
Does Sony still have to worry about making the PS3 PAL compatible for y\'all? Don\'t most, if not all, TVs sold have a 60hz mode?
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why do you all think PS3 will launch in Japan a few months before a US launch.
I fully believe there will be a japan/us launch... maybe even euro coupled in there... but definetly japan/us.
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japan always gets shit first. Pretty sure they got the 360 first, and mm got to brag its demise.
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TOKYO, Feb 20 (Reuters)
The latest from Sony...
Sony aims for spring launch of PS3 but could delay !
TOKYO, Feb 20 (Reuters) - Sony Corp.\'s (6758.T: Quote, Profile, Research) game division said on Monday it still aimed to launch its next-generation PlayStation 3 (PS3) video game console this spring, but the timing could be pushed back if it is unable to finalise the technology specifications.
"We\'re aiming for spring, but we haven\'t announced specific regions," a spokeswoman for Sony Computer Entertainment said, adding that some of the detailed specifications of the PlayStation 3 have not yet been finalised, such as those related to the Blu-ray drive and the input and output of video and sound.
"We\'re waiting for them until the last possible minute, but the launch could be pushed back if they\'re not decided soon," she said.
http://www.ps3gaming.com/forums/t299-sony-aims-for-spring-launch-of-ps3-but-could-delay-statement-from-sony.html
and...
http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/fun.games/02/20/sony.playstation.reut/index.html
Spring launch \'unrealistic\'
Most analysts took the report in stride as they already expected Sony to launch the PS3 this summer in Japan, followed by a U.S. launch before the Thanksgiving holiday in November. They expect a launch in Europe in early 2007.
"No one is seriously thinking a spring release is realistic any more," said Hiroshi Kamide, an analyst at KBC Securities. "If I were Sony, I wouldn\'t be that worried about releasing as soon as I possibly could."
Kamide said Sony may wait until it is fully prepared, especially after seeing slow initial sales of Microsoft\'s Xbox 360 even though it was launched in time for the holidays.
Having led the worldwide console gaming market for the last decade, Sony is counting on the new machine to dominate in all aspects of networked home entertainment -- games, movies, music and more.
Yuta Sakurai, a senior analyst at Nomura Securities, said the price of the PS3 was more important than its timing.
"I don\'t think it matters when Sony launches in the U.S. as long as it\'s in time for Christmas," Sakurai said. He expects Sony to try to launch the PS3 in Japan in early summer, in time for the big selling season when schools go on holiday in July.
Sakurai estimated that Sony could charge at most 50,000 yen ($420) for the console.
Retail price estimates by analysts in Japan vary widely from about 40,000 yen to several times that much, primarily because of all of the technology that is packed into the machine, which is expected to be the size of a laptop computer.
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Originally posted by THX
A question for you Euros:
Does Sony still have to worry about making the PS3 PAL compatible for y\'all? Don\'t most, if not all, TVs sold have a 60hz mode?
Well until they change their power, they\'ll never be 60hz, right?
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Originally posted by THX
A question for you Euros:
Does Sony still have to worry about making the PS3 PAL compatible for y\'all? Don\'t most, if not all, TVs sold have a 60hz mode?
Yep, I think so. There are still a bunch of losers with 50Hz only TVs that cant support PAL60 or NTSC, Sony cant forget about those. ;)
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Originally posted by videoholic
Well until they change their power, they\'ll never be 60hz, right?
Europe already has PAL60 for a long time.
It\'s quite superior imho ;) and yes, 100hz tv\'s are a substantial standard of Euro tv sales for quite some years.
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BIZ: What can you tell us about Phil Harrison\'s keynote? Will we finally get some new information on the PlayStation 3?
JM: The answer is yes. In general, platform providers have a unique opportunity at the GDC to share knowledge with and inspire the people who will make or break their consoles, namely the game developers themselves. With that in mind, this GDC keynote, along with the Nintendo keynote by Satoru Iwata, have both been in development for several months, and contain significant editorial value and developer takeaway. I strongly encourage you to attend both platform keynotes.
http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/interview/?id=12048
so new PS3 info at GDC ? Yep !
RSX\'s official unveiling ? ...one hour speach intitled "beyond the box"...who knows...
...I\'ll stay tuned...(March 20-24)
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Summary / Partial Transcript Of The Following Webcast:
NVIDIA Corporation at Morgan Stanley Semiconductor & Systems Conference (Replay)
03/07/06 at 8:45 a.m. PT
...Comments on RSX-PS3...
- Misc ramblings about how cool NVIDIA is and how much it is one of the analyst\'s favorites companies.
- Focus (has been for a while) on the intersection between Consumer Electronics and Computing
- ASPs have increased over the course of the last 10 years
- The dynamic (and thus ASPs) has the opportunity to stay the same.
- Organized in 4 business units.
-- GPUs are our largest business unit.
- Associated Brand: "GeForce", one of the best known technology brands in the world.
-- MCPs are our fastest growing business unit in terms of dollars.
- Grew 100% last year. 300M Revenue annually. On good track to improve 100% again.
- Associated Brand: nForce. Voted number 1 brand for corelogic, and not Intel!
-- Professionnal Solutions Business
- Sell stuff to content PROVIDERS for other people using our GPUs. But also for films!
- Associated Brand: Quadro. Made its way into basically ALL GPU-related workstations.
-- Handheld Business, with 3G Cellphones as target last year, 3GSM this year too.
- Customers: Sony Ericsson with their Walkman Phone, Motorola with their 3G Razor.
- Target: Smart phones, portable game/content players (PSP/IPOD/GAMEBOY-like).
- Very fast growing business, higher in relative terms but lower in absolute terms than MCPs thus.
- For the 4 businesses: PCs, Game Consoles, Handset, Car Navigation Systems, etc.
- Don\'t do "basic" (unhearable) CE devices, not sufficiently complex to fit in our expertise.
- Market of $20-30B, expansion with multimedia => growth opportunities.
- About possibility of becoming a $10B company: "Most people thought it\'d be pretty tough to be a $500M company".
- Don\'t think in those concepts. Company can become very large if you work on sufficiently value-added things
- And you need to have a management team and a culture that can sustain that growth. Not much more complicated than that.
- Benefit of our business: people love to work for us just because they can help building amazing things.
- [bunch of gibberish about our position being better this year, SLI being pwnage, etc. etc.]
- Last year, our MCP business grew 100% exclusively on nForce4 Discrete Core Logic.
- So there is a LOT, LOT of room with integrated core logic!
- Both of those designs are going to get OEM design wins we were really weak on last year.
- Weak OEM position, especially so with the US OEMs. Coming into this year, we are at 20-25% (GPU&MCP)
- Expecting to much more than double, or possibly triple, their marketshare in OEMs as we leave our
- That\'s for desktop, notebook, etc. - was first to market. So all that is ramping right now through spring
- So expecting IGP, New OEM Design Wins, etc.; continuing progressive growth.
- Expecting good Q1 & Q2 thanks to share gains etc. => seasonality will be countered [partially?]
- Desktop and Notebook markets are radically different, because of DIFFERENT CYCLES mostly.
- Desktop PC is more modular => The desktop cycle lags the notebook cycle by 3 to 4 to 5 months.
- So you\'ve got to release earlier, or you don\'t get the market.
- Also limited by physical space and power/heat properties. So it has to focus on performance-per-watt.
- Performance-Per-Watt has doubled [between GF6 & GF7]
- HD Decoding requires 20-25x more processing power.
- So CPUs are likely to struggle, especially so if you care about power/heat
- As such, that\'s a further advantage for the notebook market.
- Overall, we think it\'s gonna be a "pretty good year for us in notebooks".
- My sense is that our US OEM Notebook share is 10%, OEM Global Notebook share is around 20+%.
- Hoping we can "triple that, double to triple that" as we leave the year.
- [Vista: misc. ramblings about GPU importance]
- [Vista: the interface is really nice, according to Jen Hsun Huang]
- Vista has the ability to have applets taking advantage of the GPU [so it\'ll help over time too for adoption.]
- Any application that wants programmable access to the GPU now has it. Potential big usage shift.
- [misc. other Vista-related rambling and generalities about ASPs thus remaining stable]
- BluRay vs HD-DVD: "It\'s really hard to say". But PS3 BluRay => Highest Volume Media By The End Of This Year.
- Almost all movie studios have backed Bluray, some back both though. So the content will be there.
- Jen Hsun\'s Reminder: "The Matrix DVD was the PS2 Killer App". If Sony backs BR properly, it\'s the "program\'s conclusion".
- "So I think your RSX full production silicon is ready" - "Yeh."
- "Sony is manufacturing RSX in their own fabs, as well as Toshiba fabs"
- "Our focus now is on diesize reduction and bring up more fabs"
- In terms of our economic relationship with Sony, it has 3 parts:
--- NRA: "We are signed up to build the RSX for Sony, to port RSX to multiple fabs to increase the capacity."
- Had the think in terms of being able to build 30M units a year. Needed to potentially repeat the PS2 success.
- Tons of different fabs needed to reach that capacity, so it\'s a lot of work.
- For us, we\'re also signed up to do cost reduction to new processes.
-- Also working on making the RSX more prevelant at Sony. RSX+CELL = Digital Architecture for Sony.
- So they want to use that architecture in all kinds of things, among which HD Video-related.
- Look at PS2: Two huge chips back one, One small chip that\'s hardly costing anything now.
- So, have to "reimplement the RSX" within the next 10 years into all those kinds of digital devices.
- Considered to be a 50% Margins Business.
--- License Element of the PS3: Extra fixed licensing revenue every quarter for 3 years.
- Been recognizing that for a couple of quarters now.
- That applies to the PS3, but also the use of RSX Technology in "all of these other platforms".
--- Royalty Component, as they ship our technology in each of these platforms.
- That element of our business hasn\'t started yet.
- But lead time ahead of when you might see boxes in the market. [Uttar: Reminder: They said June/July for Royalties]
--- System is structured so that licensing revenue is likely to stop when royalty revenue peaks.
- "In the front of the life of the PS3, it\'s all NRA and it\'s all fixed license fees"
- "So that\'s why we\'re seeing the benefits of Sony and PS3 pretty substantially this year"
- "The PSP is really one the last 3D devices that will be built inhouse by anybody on the planet"
- "Nobody has invested beyond Texture Mapping [that is, besides the industry-only companies, thus Intel kinda]"
- "Not one vertically integrated company has invested in internal programmable shading architecture - ever."
- It was a huge discontinuity in investment, so from his pov, it doesn\'t make sense without volumes like theirs.
- "Our technology is pretty open market, and we\'re delighted to sell to anybody who wants to buy it".
- So it seems illogical to want to reinvent it.
- "Well we hope that... uhm... yeah, we would like that... uh.... we would be ecstatic to work on
future generation game consoles and, uhm, you know, whether it\'s be... uh... uhm... gameboy or PSP, the
volumes are just so enormous... and... hum... and it\'s always fun to have in your pocket something you built."
- "As you know, the foundries did a great job with 90 - and I think the reason for that is that 130 was so hard,
90 is, uhm, 90 is, uhm, I don\'t think it\'s easy but it seems like a wall in the park for them. So, we are
ramping up 90 pretty aggressively... Our 7900, the new high-end is 90, the 7600 which is the follow-up to our
really really successful 6600 is a 90... and, uhm, 7300 is a 90. We have integrated core logic going on in the 90
- "And very quickly we\'ll be doing a shrink in the 80 for cost improvement reasons, but basically it\'s the
same process. Most of our new desgins [unhearable] in the pipeline are 65 so, uhm, we are investing in
65 now and 55 very shortly after that."
- NV50-related...
- "Increasing flexibility of the programmability, enabling the artists to express themselves in a free way."
- "Our next generation product will just take [effects] to a brand new level"
- "Our next generation product is the combination of 3 years of heavy-duty work. We started architecting it about 4 years ago, and, you know, my best calculations have this investing $250M into it already, and by the time it launches as well as the entire product family, we will have invested about $500M in R&D."
- "It is a spectacular computing machine and, uhm, we can\'t wait to show it to you later this year".
- "And this year, along with Vista, is going to introduce a very important new API, it\'s called DX10"
- "And DX10 is just a giant leap forward in unifying the way people program graphics. Instead of, you know,"
"vertices, and shaders and textures, it\'s unified in a very elegant way. And it\'s unified in a way that
"makes it possible for us to abstract [GPU] programming to the next level."
- "Our DX10 [part] is nearly finished now, and uhm, it\'ll be rolled out this year sometime."
- "And, uhm, if I have my way, our next generation GPU will be the first DX10 GPU in the world."
Thanks to beyond3d for the info !
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Awesome info, thanks.
So PS3 might be out by May-July? Interesting.
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but with what games?Nothing seems ready for a may-july launch.Pretty awkward
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Originally posted by Unicron!
but with what games?Nothing seems ready for a may-july launch.Pretty awkward
In Jap ? There\'s a chance for summer...I think...
...and E3 will give all of us a clear indication :D
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Well I hope they have a mindblowing unexpected surprise for us at E3 ;)
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The Soul of Cell...have a nice reading, so interesting :)
If you’ve been following my ongoing commentary on the Cell Broadband Engine, then you realize that I\'ve been fairly critical of the architecture and its implementation in the third iteration of Sony\'s PlayStation console. Not wanting to be an ignorant critic on the subject, I presented Dr. H. Peter Hofstee, chief architect of the Cell Synergistic Processor, with a handful of questions that he graciously answered.
Do you have an analogy for how data is manipulated by the Cell Broadband Engine? How is the Cell\'s process of internal data manipulation different from general purpose processors?
Stanford\'s Bill Dally has a nice analogy that explains the memory wall problem processors have run into. Imagine doing a plumbing project ... you start and you see you need a pipe ... so you drive to the store ... come back with a pipe, and you discover you need a fitting ... so you drive to the store ... come back with a fitting ... and discover you need solder ... (etc.) very inefficient! When microprocessors started memory was just a few processor cycles away ... similar to having all you need in the cupboard. Today, main (DRAM) memory is hundreds of processors cycles away ... and getting things is like a drive across town to the plumbing store. What do you need to do when your supply is far away? Make a shopping list! This is exactly what the SPEs in Cell enable you to do. Instead of getting data from main memory right when you discover it is needed, you construct a list of what you need, and kick off a (DMA) processor that gets it for you. You can even create multiple lists, both of supplies you need, and stuff you\'re done with and want to put out there, so that you can always keep working.
What do you see as the inherent problem with current architectures? PowerPC? x86? SPARC? How does the Cell Broadband Engine address these shortcomings?
The main problem with current architectures is the memory wall I explained above. Because the programs do not provide shopping lists, the only way to get more than one thing on the way from main memory is to guess ahead at what may be needed, a very difficult thing to do. Another analogy ... at 512 cycles latency, say, to main memory, an 8 byte interface, and a 64byte memory access size, and a fully pipelined interface at the processor frequency, you need 64 64-byte memory accesses in flight to fully utilize the available memory bandwidth. Most processors support only a handful. This looks like a situation where you have a bucket brigade with 64 people, but only a handful of buckets ... no way you will see efficient use of the people. This phenomenon is the reason that Cell achieves nearly two orders of magnitude better performance on applications where the problem comes down to collecting data from memory in a pattern that can be calculated, but isn\'t so trivial the hardware can guess it. A lot of problems are like that: fast Fourier transforms, volume rendering, raycasting and raytracing, and many others.
Some other problems, like the fact that single thread processor performance isn\'t improving as fast as it used to, and the fact that almost all systems are really limited in their performance by the power the system allows, can, and are being addressed by building multi-core chips. Cell is multi-core, but what is unique about it is the fact that it has two different types of cores sharing memory, which allowed us to optimize each more for their own tasks.
How many workable processor designs were discarded before resting on the final design of the Cell Broadband Engine? Did you find any patent issues constraining while working on the processor design?
In the first year in the design center we built a fully functional SPU (SPE minus the DMA unit). Much of it was ok, but there was still much to improve, so we changed a bunch of things, like the local store size. Towards the end of the first year we redid much of the chip architecture, making the chip much more programmable, fixing things (our first version of real-time partitioning was not what we wanted), and introducing new elements, like the security architecture. After that we mainly changed the chip configuration (like the number of SPEs) as we learned more about what would fit on a chip and how to best balance the chip and make it manufacturable.
IBM has a vast experience in microprocessors and a deep patent portfolio, and much of what we did was new ... there are 100s of new patents that resulted from this project ... not too many constraints. Some other things were really very old ... so not too much of a problem there either.
Could you elaborate on the internal workings and design of the Synergistic Processor Elements? Could you contrast the design of these specialized processors to the Power Processor Element?
The Power processor element (PPE) is a more conventional architecture ... it brings instructions and data in as they are needed. It relies on caches (cupboards) for good performance. A task like running the operating system runs well on the Power processor, and often we will use the PPE to define the work. The Power processor also guarantees us that it is easy to get started with Cell, as Cell is fully Power architecture compliant. The SPEs do not have a cache, but instead bring data from shared memory into a local store memory before operating on it. To make this work well, you tend to have to restructure your code (and bring out the shopping lists), but when you do so, the performance tends to be very high. So the two processors nicely complement one another.
How do you feel about backwards compatibility between processor generations? Does the need for backwards compatibility necessarily stifle innovation?
We had about 5 years to do the project, and we felt that without some form of backward compatibility, it would likely have taken us 10 years. By building on what already works well, the Power architecture and the operating systems, compilers, applications etc. that come with it, we could get a flying start. It may have seemed a little bit constraining in the very beginning, but we realized very quickly that building on Power really freed us up to work on the new things we cared about, like real-time, and the SPEs, and security etc., rather than hold us back. Again, the hundreds of patents I think are testimony to this.
What is your personal vision of the "ultimate processor design?" How does the current incarnation of the Cell Broadband Engine figure into your vision?
Actually, one of the nice things about the job of a processor architect is that the "ultimate" processor design does not exist! 25 years ago, when main memory was close, Cell would have been a really dumb idea, but when "main memory" was a spinning drum, decades before that, Cell could have looked pretty good! It is the job of the architect to respond to the ever changing physical realities, and best bridge these realities to where the programmers can take over and do their thing.
For now, I am really happy with Cell, and we should not change things too fast, so that we do not outrun the software community. Still, architects have to think pretty far ahead, since it takes a good while to build a new processor, so we are already beginning to think about what might come after this, and how to build on the ideas that were introduced in Cell. We believe it is very possible to build on these ideas, just like we built on Power when we introduced Cell, and get a very compelling result.
There it is, straight from the Cell chief scientist himself. I am never convinced of anything until I see it in action for myself, but I\'m fascinated by the concepts and analogies. I look forward to the closer look we’ll all get at this extraordinary technology when we welcome Sony’s next wonder into our living rooms.
http://sixteenbit.blogspot.com/
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FFXI fans asked, creators answered !
Still no finalized PS3 in the hands of FF creators ? ...maybe they have but can\'t tell anything about ?
...The developers also responded to inquiries on the PS3 version of FFXI: "Right now, we still don\'t know what type of machine the PS3 is, so we are waiting on Sony to finalize the hardware before we can make that decision." An end of the year launch for Sony\'s next console is looking more and more likely.
http://gamecube.joystiq.com/2006/03/12/ffxi-fans-asked-creators-answered/
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well, the interview does sounds hot and all, but as I have learned from ps2 lessons. I have to take hype less seriously now. Its good to know it, but don\'t feed up with it too much.
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FFXI fans asked, creators answered !
Still no finalized PS3 in the hands of FF creators ? ...maybe they have but can\'t tell anything about ?
http://gamecube.joystiq.com/2006/03/12/ffxi-fans-asked-creators-answered/
I think they mean they don\'t know if Sony will release a hard drive as a standard device on the PS3. Sony hasn\'t officially said if the HDD is standard or if its an add on.
Here is what the question looked like
Q: Are there any plans for Final Fantasy XI development for the PlayStation 3?
A: Right now, we still don\'t know what type of machine the PS3 is, so we are waiting on Sony to finalize the hardware before we can make that decision.
Maybe they know the answer but cant say since it hasn\'t been made official by Sony.
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I think they mean they don\'t know if Sony will release a hard drive as a standard device on the PS3. Sony hasn\'t officially said if the HDD is standard or if its an add on.
Here is what the question looked like
Maybe they know the answer but cant say since it hasn\'t been made official by Sony.
well, maybe you get it, the HDD should be the only key factor,and maybe it\'s built-in but there\'s no official words from Sony...so their lips are sealed...
...getting too curious...must know it on 15th of March :D
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Copy protection technology related to their Blu-ray disc drive is the cause of the delay ?!
Sony Delays PlayStation 3
Blu-ray forcing the machine into hiding until November.
Sony has been anything but talkative these past few months regarding their plans for PlayStation 3. No one except Sony seemed to anticipate they\'d continue to meet their projected spring release date in any territory, even Japan.
Today, Sony officially conceded defeat to the recent flurry of rumors and speculation, with Japanese newspaper Nihon Keizai Shimbun reporting the company has confirmed the machine has been pushed back until November.
There aren\'t many details out right now, but Sony says copy protection technology related to their Blu-ray disc drive is the cause of the delay.
As the news is coming out of Japan, that creates a worrisome scenario for America and Europe. There was already rumblings Sony wouldn\'t be able to launch in all territories before the end of the year, but missing out on the Christmas season over here could prove a deadly blow to Sony\'s next-generation plans.
Somewhere in Microsoft\'s offices, Bill Gates just opened a bottle of champagne. With more details expected at tomorrow\'s PlayStation conference and the Game Developers Conference just around the corner, it appears the flood gates (for good or ill) are about to be unleashed.
http://1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3148763
I don\'t care, I\'ll save money to buy more and better launch games !
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November 2006= January 2007
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November 2006= January 2007
I am sure Sony will do anything possible to release it before January.Christmass its a great period for selling products
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November 2006= January 2007
I wanna wait till tomorrow...
...it\'s not official, but it\'s from a Japanese business newspaper, the Nihon Keizai Shimbun...
Six month delay caused by unresolved technical issues with Blu-Ray
One of Japan\'s leading newspapers, the Nihon Keizai Shimbun, is reporting in its Wednesday morning edition that the PlayStation 3 console has been delayed to November due to unresolved issues with the Blu-Ray technology.
According to the paper, the problem lies with the copy protection system used by Blu-Ray, details of which have not yet been finalised - which will now cause a delay of some six months to Sony\'s PS3 plans.
Sony has always maintained that the PS3 will launch in spring of this year, but most industry commentators and third-party publishers are currently anticipating US and Japanese launches late in 2006, followed by a European launch in early 2007.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=15354
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why haven\'t we seen anything in terms of games yet?...i didn\'t read any of the info above, but at this point we should be seeing the progress of some games being worked on since last year correct?...it\'s usually a bad sign when companies don\'t show progress...regardless of the hype...ps3 can have all the fancy tech it wants, but bottomline if the games are garbage all that superior technology means nothing....
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the games wont be garbage. Just look at gamespot.com ( http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/index.html ) for anything new. Obviously they dont have in game stuff yet but you can see what direction theyre going.
Already a few games im looking foreward to. MGS, Warhawk, Resident Evil, even spider-man (hell..its next gen..might as well give it a try). Games they dont have yet like GTA, Gran Turismo, etc. As for gameplay, expect it to be a top of the line PC..on a console..
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Not necessarily clips, we haven\'t seen any Nintendo Revolution stuff, hardly at all. That comes out this fall, too.
*looks at E3*
-Dan
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Hey guys IGN and other sites have many cool PS3 and PSP announcements :)
My favourite:
HDD probably INCLUCED with the PS3
PS1 emulator for the PSP and PS1 downlodable content for the PSP
PS1 and PS2 games will be playied in HD resolution on PS3
AWESOME IF TRUE
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PS1 and PS2 games will be playied in HD resolution on PS3
AWESOME IF TRUE
Cool, Makes me curious how FFVII will looks like when output those low resolution 320 x 240 polygons to high def.
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It will be great if it speeds up games too if we choose to :)
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so...we can now summarize some specs/info...
- GLOBAL RELEASE NOVEMBER 11th
- 60GB HDD 2.5" with pre-installed Linux OS
-Bigger HDDs will be introduced after launch
- Dev kit specs fix as of today
- Final PS3 development kits will be sent to developers in June
- 10.000.000 BD-ROMS manufacturing capability per month @ cost around same as 2-layer DVD
(Ken K. went out of his way to say he feels PS3 will be the best Blu-ray player, quality-wise when it is launched !)
- Every PS3 game will be on a Blu Ray Disc, in an attempt to prevent piracy
- Price will not be less than 50.000YEN (~$425USD)
- PS3 will have "next gen" HDMI support from launch(HDMI 1.3 is my guess)
- Sony plans to produce 1 million PS3s a month; 6 million PS3s for FY2006 (by the end of March 07)
-Mass production of PS3 hardware will begin in June 2006 (the end of spring lol)
- basic" online service free, no details yet (could be XBLS for PS3)
- Full backwards compatibility, hi-res and texture filtering for all titles (akin to what the Xbox 360 does to Halo)
- The online service will be working off of GameSpy technology
- RAM upgrade is said to be in...well...I\'d like to know if we\'ll have
more ram (1 gig) or faster ram (all Rambus XRDRAM) or perhaps both...
(not confirmed, "strong" rumor)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbb.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fcda%2Fstatic%2Fimage%2F2006%2F03%2F15%2Fpsbb10.jpg&hash=685f9bcbb3ff469c7afe1eea9cf400a9c81eb1e9)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbb.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fcda%2Fstatic%2Fimage%2F2006%2F03%2F15%2Fpsbb11.jpg&hash=8a55e793cefc7bbb04026feec2aecf2ef86f5c8f)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbb.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fcda%2Fstatic%2Fimage%2F2006%2F03%2F15%2Fpsbb12.jpg&hash=ac94d4400388c94546f4ca40453982a09ca9a2df)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbb.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fcda%2Fstatic%2Fimage%2F2006%2F03%2F15%2Fpsbb13.jpg&hash=13a2be967bb1b7ebf9d21caaa0b2b9bfd7694402)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbb.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fcda%2Fstatic%2Fimage%2F2006%2F03%2F15%2Fpsbb14.jpg&hash=a6e8aae20edd4b7fd2ec44d2e0a960298e36c5ad)
I\'ll stay tuned for more info...
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so...we can now summarize some specs/info...
* HDD is a standard PC laptop 2.5" SATA design, PS3 is compatible with standard drives
* No price has been announced (think E3)
* Ken K. went out of his way to say he feels PS3 will be the best Blu-ray player, quality-wise when it is launched !
* Only one SKU available
* Games will require HDD
* Developers told to assume HDD is there
* RAM upgrade is said to be in...well...I\'d like to know if we\'ll have
more ram (1 gig) or faster ram (all Rambus XRDRAM) or perhaps both...
(not confirmed, "strong" rumor)
I\'ll stay tuned for more info...
What does he mean by games will require HDD I wonder
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What does he mean by games will require HDD I wonder
1) 60GB HDD 2.5" with pre-installed Linux OS
2) Bigger HDDs will be introduced after launch / upgradeable
3) Games will require HDD
4) I think(my opinion) it won\'t be a built-in HD, but you\'ll buy your own with PS3 to play games :) ...it may be separate...
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1) 60GB HDD 2.5" with pre-installed Linux OS
2) Bigger HDDs will be introduced after launch / upgradeable
3) Games will require HDD
4) I think(my opinion) it won\'t be a built-in HD, but you\'ll buy your own with PS3 to play games :) ...it may be separate...
If its separate, can\'t you just buy any HDD then?
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If its separate, can\'t you just buy any HDD then?
well, there\'s a lot of speaking about it lately...and right now your question can\'t be answered:)...people are getting confused \'cause the HDD is required but not standard...so...what does it mean ? Only one SKU available...games will require HDD...but it\'s not standard ?!...:confused: maybe PS3 + separate 60GB HDD is the "standard"...but you can even choose a bigger HDD, or a smaller one...
...people in every forum are going mad about it...:)
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I hope it\'s not separate. Then it\'s just an overpriced memory card. Put it in the system like the premium 360 and be done with it.
-Dan
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I hope you can attach any HD you want.I have a 120GB external HD I d love to use on it
Btw anything on the mem sticks?
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I hope you can attach any HD you want.I have a 120GB external HD I d love to use on it
Btw anything on the mem sticks?
If its separate, can\'t you just buy any HDD then?
well, PS3 HDD should have some sort of proprietary filesystem format that cannot be reproduced by unofficial hardware, without some hard hacking, but it\'s just speculation...
I hope it\'s not separate. Then it\'s just an overpriced memory card. Put it in the system like the premium 360 and be done with it.
...but think that a wide range of sizes for PS3 HDD give you more freedom, and don\'t force you to have a HDD you don\'t want...you will be able to get the cheap/standard HDD(and have "money back" with XXX free contents from your HDD) or a bigger one if you prefer...my opinion...
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PS3 will have hard drive as standard
Friday March 17, 11:12 AM
Our Sony representative has confirmed this morning that PlayStation 3 will come with a 60GB HDD as standard, but that can be upgraded if preferred.
Some of the larger US websites have been speculating that PlayStation 3 would be shipping with an optional 60GB hard disc drive. However we can confirm this morning that all PS3 consoles will be sold with the HDD out of the box. Sony\'s president of Computer Entertainment, Ken Kutaragi, announced on Wednesday that all PS3 games are being developed to take advantage of the 60GB HDD.
Another essential use for the HDD will be Sony\'s online service, which will offer downloads in a similar way to Microsoft\'s Xbox Live platform. Clearly now it is Sony\'s intention to standardise the PlayStation 3 community, so that all developers know that everybody who owns PS3 will benefit from HDD-related features in-game. Bizarrely this used to be Microsoft\'s standpoint with its original Xbox, but the Redmond corporation has since taken an about turn with Xbox 360.
http://uk.videogames.games.yahoo.com/25/news/ps3-will-have-hard-drive-as-standard-3c0925.html
well, it confirms my thoughts...
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Bigger question.
Cell CPU
Blu-Ray Drive
60 GIG HD.
How much is this all goin\' to add to an already expensive console? While I can apperciate the fact that Sony learned from their mistakes last generation (HD + add-on = Failure) and want to make it a standard, I have to worry that this will just add to the cost of the system. The XBOX360 HD already runs around $100 bucks extra, you figure a 60 gig one would be at least $150 extra. Either the console is goin\' to be outrageous price wise or Sony will take a huge loss with each console sold, therefor making their money off the Blu-Ray format and rising the price of the games themselves, much like the outrageous $60 dollar Xbox 360 games.
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Bigger question.
Cell CPU
Blu-Ray Drive
60 GIG HD.
How much is this all goin\' to add to an already expensive console? While I can apperciate the fact that Sony learned from their mistakes last generation (HD + add-on = Failure) and want to make it a standard, I have to worry that this will just add to the cost of the system. The XBOX360 HD already runs around $100 bucks extra, you figure a 60 gig one would be at least $150 extra. Either the console is goin\' to be outrageous price wise or Sony will take a huge loss with each console sold, therefor making their money off the Blu-Ray format and rising the price of the games themselves, much like the outrageous $60 dollar Xbox 360 games.
Ken Kutaragi stated that he would keep the PS3\'s price below $500.00, and the HDD is included...maybe 449-499$ ? ...just a general estimate...
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HDDs are a lot cheaper now than last year, too. With Sony\'s direct manufacturing contacts, I would imagine they pay very close to cost for these components, and some of their partners might even be willing to take a loss if it means they will make more money in related revenue.
I am still guessing they aim for $399 despite the loss, or $449 tops. At $500 USD, the console takes a big leap to \'out of reach\' of a large number of consumers.
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sweetness, HD included!
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Bigger question.
Cell CPU
Blu-Ray Drive
60 GIG HD.
How much is this all goin\' to add to an already expensive console? While I can apperciate the fact that Sony learned from their mistakes last generation (HD + add-on = Failure) and want to make it a standard, I have to worry that this will just add to the cost of the system. The XBOX360 HD already runs around $100 bucks extra, you figure a 60 gig one would be at least $150 extra. Either the console is goin\' to be outrageous price wise or Sony will take a huge loss with each console sold, therefor making their money off the Blu-Ray format and rising the price of the games themselves, much like the outrageous $60 dollar Xbox 360 games.
Sony is the biggest developer of blu-ray, right? Maybe they\'ll make a killing just on the discs and games sold that it really doesn\'t matter to them. With the money they\'ll make on blu-ray, they can take this hit.
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Sony is the biggest developer of blu-ray, right? Maybe they\'ll make a killing just on the discs and games sold that it really doesn\'t matter to them. With the money they\'ll make on blu-ray, they can take this hit.
That\'s what I said.
Sony will profit off every single Blu-Ray disc sold, threfor they can afford to take the hit.
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That\'s what I said.
Sony will profit off every single Blu-Ray disc sold, threfor they can afford to take the hit.
Heh, I either stopped reading your post a few words when you said that or I just skipped over that part or it didn\'t register :p Sorry :)
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March 20, 2006
PlayStation 3 Hard Drive Confirmed As Standard !!!
Sony has confirmed to Gamasutra that the PlayStation 3 will come with a 60GB hard drive as standard, removing the ambiguity on the issue, following potentially confusing statements from Sony\'s Ken Kutaragi at the developer\'s Tokyo conference last week.
The news was reported today by various news sites, and has been confirmed to Gamasutra by Sony Computer Entertainment Europe PR Manager Jonathan Fargher. The 60GB hard drive will be the default size, with other larger sizes available as separate peripherals. This follows Kutaragi\'s already acknowledged comments that all games will require a hard drive in order to run.
As previously reported on Friday, additional details on the PlayStation Network Platform, the PlayStation 3 equivalent of Xbox Live, have revealed that it will apparently provide a free basic service that includes online gameplay. According to these reports, only specific massively multiplayer online (MMO) titles and other premium services will require an additional fee.
Additional information on the hard drive and other technical aspects of the PlayStation 3 are expected during Phil Harrison’s keynote speech at GDC this Wednesday.
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=8579
Yes !
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Quazal Technologies – Now Available for “PLAYSTATION®3”!!!
(March 20th, 2006) – Quazal, makers of the Net-Z and Rendez-Vous online multiplayer middleware technologies, and the newly announced Spark! lobby technology, is pleased to announce today that they have been approved for Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. (SCEI)\'s Tools and Middleware program for PLAYSTATION®3" computer entertainment system, and that versions are ready for evaluation by interested "PLAYSTATION®3" game title developers.
With this approval, Quazal will develop and market networking middleware technologies for the powerful computer entertainment system, much to the delight of dozens of developers and publishers who have been anxious to work with Quazal\'s Net-Z in-game and Rendez-Vous lobby and matchmaking technologies for "PLAYSTATION®3".
"The next generation of game consoles brings a lot of power to developers, but many of the problems inherent in online gaming remain," said Martin Lavoie, CTO of Quazal. "With true cross-title support, and support for multiple "PlayStation®" platforms developers can save time and money on their online games, while delivering cutting edge features to their end users."
By incorporating Quazal\'s technology into their game titles, developers and publishers will open the door to low-risk lobby and matchmaking development with Quazal Spark!, as well as the innovative features of Quazal Net-Z and Rendez-Vous. Because of the cross-platform nature of Quazal\'s technologies, these ideas will be far easier to implement than ever before...
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/press_release.php?aid=15488
I\'m happy to see all this effort from Sony...delivering middleware technologies, and this time a great online multiplayer middleware !;)
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So what does this 60 GB HD mean for us gamers.
I mean will be able to instal some of the game on the HD and reduce loading times? Custom soundtracks will be possible too right? I think I\'m suffering memory loss because suddenly I can remember the benefits of an HD besides downloadable extras and other things I mentioned
Oh and this makes the PS3 off the hook. XBOX 360 had an HD which alowed it to do somethings PS3 couldnt now PS3 has everything the 360 has and some. With The Playstation Network, Madden online, GT5 online, well...you get the idea...the PS3 will be the greatest console ever...even better then the PS1
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Oh and this makes the PS3 off the hook. XBOX 360 had an HD which alowed it to do somethings PS3 couldnt now PS3 has everything the 360 has and some. With The Playstation Network, Madden online, GT5 online, well...you get the idea...the PS3 will be the greatest console ever...even better then the PS1
do you know that there\'re two SKU available for X360 ? That means the HDD is not required for X360 gamers...
The PS3 HDD is REQUIRED for ALL PS3 gamers, and all developers develop with HDD in mind for all games for all PS3 gamers:)...I\'ll make it easy...this time X360="PS2" and PS3="XBox" plus possibility to upgrade the HDD :D...HDD speaking !
...I forecast Living-In-Clip is going to quote you on this...
With The Playstation Network, Madden online, GT5 online, well...you get the idea...the PS3 will be the greatest console ever...even better then the PS1
:)
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Ageia\'s SDK enables Amazing PS3 Content !!!
AGEIA Technologies, Inc., the pioneer in hardware-accelerated physics for games, today announced that the latest version of AGEIA PhysX SDK version 2.4 will become available to registered PLAYSTATION 3 game content developers on March 31, 2006.
The AGEIA PhysX SDK is highly recognized for its extensive physics functionality and multithreading capabilities, which are uniquely suited for the multicore architecture of the Cell processor adopted on PLAYSTATION 3. The latest AGEIA PhysX SDK version 2.4 is optimized for the Cell processor, adding mind-blowing physics action to the high-definition graphics of PLAYSTATION 3 titles.
In the 2.4 release, several components of the AGEIA PhysX pipeline have been offloaded from the PPU of the PLAYSTATION 3 to the SPUs; developers can fully control the component deployment. This has resulted in a 50% reduction in maximum PPU load, leaving more room for game code and smooth frame rates.
http://www.gdhardware.com/
Great !!! The AGEIA PhysX SDK version 2.4 is now optimized for the Cell ! ;)
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deleted, double post
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Cell Can’t Texture?
Much has been said about Cell’s presumed inability to texture map well. Given the small (256KB) local stores and DMA memory access, the SPEs were relegated by many to only handle nice streaming geometry type workloads. This seemed like an issue ripe for a little prototyping.
First, colleague Mark Nutter, implemented a software cache abstraction layer for the SPE giving us the ability to both hide the complexity of DMAs and benefit from transparent data reuse. Next, given the lessons learned from this paper, we tiled our textures, optimized our access patterns, and implemented several cache replacement policies. We then rewrote the shader in the Quaternion Julia Set Raytracer to add five cubemap texture lookup passes - 3 refraction lookups, a reflection lookup, plus a background lookup. These five texture lookups were then blended together with a fresnel calculation and modulated with the base lighting computation to form the final sample color.
The results were very pleasing...
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gametomorrow.com%2Fminor%2Fbarry%2Fframe.jpg&hash=780d463b17734e1a98ec7e2f8c87c16aa55a185e)
http://gametomorrow.com/blog/index.php/2006/03/24/cell-cant-texture/
video inside !
and...
Crowd Simulation !
Crowd Simulation: Cell BE Development Made Simple
Developing a simulation of many thousand characters, each with a mind of their own, is usually a complex task. It requires a large amount of computing power and normally involves a serious effort from the developer in order to achieve reasonable performance. Utilizing the RapidMind Development Platform and the Cell Broadband Engine (Cell BE), achieving excellent performance of this simulation is made simple.
http://www.rapidmind.net/samples.php
movie!http://media.rapidmind.net/samples/crowds-medium.mov
In this demonstration over 16000 chickens are simulated simultaneously, have a look ! :D
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Very impressive work. Even the light is seperated generating a rainbow effect on the reflection.
Whoah!
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Btw I downloaded the first movie but it wont play because my Quicktime is missing the appropriate compressor/codec or whatever
Any reckomendations?
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Btw I downloaded the first movie but it wont play because my Quicktime is missing the appropriate compressor/codec or whatever
Any reckomendations?
Download the latest version of QuickTime. You need the codec from the new version.
http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/
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thanks downloading now :)
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The new one has the H.264 codec...which is what is needed, I believe.
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Can\'t you just download the codec? I usually do that whenever I need one for Windows Media Player, Flash Player or Quicktime.
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I think with QuickTime you have to download the latest version. I went on their codec page and didn\'t find anything. They might have the codec for other media players. I\'m not sure.
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Some specs leaked out from GDC !
Memory latency for Cell is:
Register: 1 cycle
L1 cash: 8 cycle
L2 cash: 32 cycle
Main memory: 140 cycles
6 SPEs are available to applications - as speculated/expected by many, a SPE is reserved by the OS.
For the first time, Sony references the architecture RSX was based on specifically - the NV47. 24 2D texture lookups simultaneously = 24 pixel pipelines. 384 flops/clock.
Two models for RSX programming:
PSGL - high level
libgcm - low level, to the metal
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fgame%2Fdocs%2F20060329%2F3dps309.jpg&hash=93d04f26ffb9dd005f928cede8ee6dcce8566857)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fgame%2Fdocs%2F20060329%2F3dps308.jpg&hash=2ea83f6f557106f11ff1c6872038c5b3be9c480c)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fgame%2Fdocs%2F20060329%2F3dps307.jpg&hash=23b567558d40d8648c8fc915b2582d4633a3c367)
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20060329/3dps3.htm
Now let\'s wait for E3, where Sony will probably show all the specs !
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So that means only 6 SPEs left for games? is that a good thing?
The new one has the H.264 codec...which is what is needed, I believe.
Well the download worked for me :)
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So that means only 6 SPEs left for games? is that a good thing?
No good, no bad...expected :)
And this is interesting !
*Trailer showing off the physics engine possible on PS3 !
http://dl.qj.net/CellFactor-Trailer/pg/12/fid/5530/catid/3
+ info/speculation on the RSX processor designed to accelerate graphics for PS3 is also providing hardware accelerated audio.
NVIDIA RSX to power Playstation 3 audio?
Dave at Beyond3D has pointed out some slides now online from Sony\'s presentations at GDC that include some juicy details about the Playstation 3 and the chips that power it. Among the slides is a high-level block diagram of a PS3 system that shows many of the system components connected as one would expect. But right there among them is an arrow shooting out of the side of the NVIDIA-supplied RSX graphics processor with a label that will raise some eyebrows: "8 Ch. Audio". This suggests none too subtly that the RSX will provide the PlayStation 3\'s audio capabilities as well as its graphics.
I would be more inclined to dismiss this possibility outright had I not been sitting in a room with NVIDIA CEO Jen-Hsun Huang when the Playstation 3 deal was announced. That very morning, Huang said NVIDIA would create another SoundStorm, referring to the popular but ill-fated hardware-accelerated audio processor in NVIDIA\'s early nForce chipsets. My account of that conversation read, in part:
Huang told the assembled press types, "We\'re gonna build SoundStorm 2. It\'s gonna be awesome." He was less clear on what form the next SoundStorm would take, saying that NVIDIA was still trying to figure out how to deliver SoundStorm as a product. Huang said, cryptically, that the new SoundStorm "will come in a way that you won\'t expect."
In the same Q&A session, Huang spoke about NVIDIA\'s history with the NV1 "media processor" chip, which had built-in sound as well as graphics. He disputed that notion that NVIDIA is primarily a "graphics company," and then suggested that the GPU is going to evolve and expand beyond graphics to include other kinds of digital media.
The wording of this statement made one wonder whether NVIDIA might be providing the audio capabilities for the PS3. This slide from Sony\'s GDC presentation would seem to suggest that it\'s so.
Of course, we don\'t know what sort of audio capabilities the RSX may include and whether they will rise above the basic AC\'97 or Azalia (HD Audio) interfaces NVIDIA has already designed for its nForce chipsets. If this is the "SoundStorm 2" Huang promised, one would expect true hardware DSPs and 3D positional audio capabilities from it. One of the more tantalizing prospects, given that the audio capabilities are located on a GPU, is the possibility that RSX might use its pixel shader processors to manipulate audio streams. That\'s just wild speculation on my part, though. We\'ve asked NVIDIA for comment on all of these issues, but we have yet to hear back.
http://www.techreport.com/onearticle.x/9683
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=1540
E3 come here !!!! :D
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Cellfactor is a multi-platform title.
I really want to see another MGS4 trailer. Hideo knows how to handle a Sony console.
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No good, no bad...expected :)
And this is interesting !
*Trailer showing off the physics engine possible on PS3 !
http://dl.qj.net/CellFactor-Trailer/pg/12/fid/5530/catid/3
Awesome physics on the explosion and stuff flying around...
Makes me curious how well the physics will look on people like movement of clothing, hair, facial expression. If it could do that well, then I will be completely amaze.
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Cellfactor is a multi-platform title.
I really want to see another MGS4 trailer. Hideo knows how to handle a Sony console.
AGEIA, the company developing the physics engine for the PS3, has released a video demonstrating the power of the engine. CellFactor is a PC game but the physics driving the game are being used for the PS3. The video is actually game footage demonstrating the realistic feel of the physics in real time.
just a little clarification...and I want to see a new MGS4 trailer too ! ;)
...and I found an Intervew with Epic\'s Mark Rein about physics performance out of PlayStation 3 !
Shack: What are your thoughts on AGEIA\'s PPU hardware? Any thoughts about how that\'s going to take off?
Mark Rein: One thing AGEIA\'s done that\'s really smart is that--well, if you\'ve seen our PS3 demo, and this is really version .1, really not a finished performance at all, but we\'ve got some really great cool physics things going on PS3. They\'ve done a really good job of optimizing their library to work well with the SPUs in the Cell processor, which means we\'re going to be able to get a lot of physics performance out of PlayStation 3. Also on Xbox 360 to some extent, but definitely on PS3 we\'re going to be able to get a lot of physics capabilities out of that. Which means that, to bring [games using those methods] to a PC, you\'re probably going to need the hardware. Or you could maybe scale it up even further on the PC, I believe, with their hardware. I think that bodes really well for them if developers go nuts and do really cool physics on PlayStation 3, then if people want to play it to that level on PC, they\'ll buy the card. So it\'s a matter of them coming out with great applications, great games that use it. I know Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter will be using the hardware, and Unreal Tournament 2007 will be using the hardware. Not today, but eventually. So I think that\'s pretty exciting for them, and I think it\'s going to be pretty cool.
http://www.shacknews.com/extras/2006/032906_markrein_2.x
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I think a "Meeting with Phil Harrison ", from avforums.
The HDD will be included in the box !!!
...but there\'s a lot of stuff still to be decided !
Anyway here’s a list of questions, with quick answers underneath each. They were vague as expected, and I got the impression that there’s still a long way to go. It will be interesting what they will announce at E3.
What his views are on the headstart MS have and how the delay for the PS3 will affect their strategy.
Not concerned about the competition, they are following their own strategy.
Launch date for UK.
Launch price for UK.
No comment
When will we see some games up an running?
E3
Is a hard drive going to be included in the box?
Yes
What other accessories are being planned to go in with the initial console. HD cables? Head sets? Wireless controllers?
Still to be decided.
Backwards compatibility w.r.t. peripherials. Are things like steering wheels or Guitar Hero controllers going to be usable with the PS3?
Still to be decided.
Given the PS3 is backwards compatible with PS1 & 2, how do gamers use their memory cards on PS3? Will there be a way to "copy" games saves from memory card onto a memory stick?
Still to be determined, it’s something they’re looking at.
Why is the controller being re-designed?
No comment, they just felt it needed adapting.
What video connection items will be supported?
Skirted the question, I think this is still work in progress.
http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323498&page=5
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Brilliant :)
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:)
And it\'s truly admirable all the support Sony are giving to developers !
SN Systems Launches PS3 Tuner !
The popularity of Unreal Engine 3 amongst publishers for next-generation development suggets companies are doing everything possible to streamline the ambitious projects for the new consoles. SN Systems is just one of a number of companies producing products to aid studios as they push forward on their projects.
SN Systems has developed what they call a Tuner for PlayStation 3, which allegedly "enables developers to quickly highlight bottlenecks and conflicts in source code, helping them to improve code performance." The company also produced a similar tool for PlayStation 2 and PSP.
Tuner is available to all registered PlayStation 3 developers, an unsurprising move considering SN System is actually a subsidiary of Sony Computer Entertainment. Despite their Sony alignment, however, the company actually produces development kits and software tools for Nintendo products, too.
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3149210
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Cell Benchmarks by Mercury Systems !
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg334.imageshack.us%2Fimg334%2F3567%2F33ue.jpg&hash=58b0d01f30e4ab72f5357afefb14fb3dc9b376fb)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg334.imageshack.us%2Fimg334%2F1672%2F68jg.jpg&hash=52d0b645affbc21f2dd6dad87c6c440a3fea0340)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg334.imageshack.us%2Fimg334%2F7861%2F51th.jpg&hash=decde8d4e80754e1a052b81ac4933a901813276b)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg342.imageshack.us%2Fimg342%2F9873%2F78mn.jpg&hash=9840788d9ce8b82dadab22e746c33a0cacabdcac)
http://www.mc.com/mediacenter/events/webinar.cfm
Look at what a single SPE running at 3.0 Ghz can do ! :D
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That cellfactor trailer was awesome, although I much prefer to play FPS games on PC.
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Ageia & CELL !
"In CPU and GPU, data has locality. But in physics not, as it has to do random access to many objects. Data structures are totally different" says Nadeem Mohammad, who moved from a GPU vendor to AGEIA.
Still PPU has large internal memory in itself. It has various internal memories instead of cache, and has the organization that does explicit and programmable transfer between internal and external memories.
The patent explains memories such as dual-bank Inter-Engine Memory (IEM) connected to VPU, multi-purpose Scratch Pad Memory (SPM), DME Instruction Memory (DIM) which does instruction queuing, and so on. Hedge suggested that those memories in the patent are in the actual implementation by saying "they are probably included" in PPU.
Among those memories IEM is used in the way that looks like traditional data cache. According to the patent, DME loads a data set required for operation of processing units into IEM explicitly. Unlike cache memory, low-latency access is possible in IEM and apparently it could implement a large number of I/O ports. As the result, it could achieve huge internal memory bandwidth.
"One of the important factors in a physics architecture is it requires huge on-chip memory bandwidth. Our PPU has 2Tb(Tera-bit)/sec on-chip memory bandwidth," says Hedge.
In short, removing complicated cache control made it possible that PPU has L2-cache size internal memory with L1-cache latency and huge bandwidth, and it\'s suitable for physics algorithm according to them.
Cell-like Global Structure of PPU
By the abstract of the PPU architecture, you\'ll immediately notice the commonality with Cell. Both of them are parallel processors with huge floating point processing units, have no cache hierarchy, and manage inter-memory data transfer by software programs.
If you replace PPU Control Engine (PCE), the RISC core in PPU, with PPE(Power Processor Element), the PowerPC core in Cell, and Vector Processing Engine (VPE), PPU\'s data processing engine, with SPE(Synergistic Processor Element), Cell\'s data processor, they almost correspond with each other.
In both the architectures one RISC core does global control and many vector data processors does data processing in parallel. As for the affinity in the architectures Hedge said:
"If you look at the very high level they are very alike. Both of them are huge parallel engines, have floating point processing units, and control each internal memory. But the difference is also big. For example, Cell does internal data transfer by a ring bus (so it has limited bandwidth). On the other hand, our architecture has far higher (internal data) bandwidth.
But it\'s also true that Cell is relatively suitable architecture for physics processing. In PS3, the GPU is "GeForce 7900+" architecture, but it has Cell. So in PS3 it can do physics on a PPU-like architecture (Cell), not in GPU."
Looking at the PPU architecture like this, you can imagine AGEIA has a relatively good affinity in PS3 library development.
The current transistor count of PPU is 125M and manufactured at 0.13um process of TSMC. For the chip size it\'s GeForce FX 5800(NV30) class and the process is the same, the die size is about 182mm and it\'s a bit smaller than NV30. It won\'t be far from the reality if you assume you have NV30 for physics.
By comparing it with GPU you can imagine the configuration of VPU too. In the 120M class GPU it has 6-12 programmable shaders. Unlike GPU, PPU doesn\'t do texture handling etc, it should have simpler processing units. Then it\'s estimated that the current AGEIA PPU have 16 VPUs at most.
http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2006/0407/kaigai259.htm
It\'s very very interesting ;)
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Developer Airtight has posted a vacancy for a AGEIA PhysX coder to make stuff like in the listed videos, in their upcoming PS3 game.
The vids show cool stuff. Definately looks like conceivable ingame graphics.
http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/821/821912/vids_1.html (http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/821/821912/vids_1.html)
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PS3 is really shaping as a monster in both graphics and physics capabilities...now developers have to push the hardware and show their talent...hope to see a lot of stuff at this E3 :)
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oh c\'mon bio, those mercury systems benchmarks weren\'t real world. it says "estimated" and "simulated"
/partypooper
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There are already realtime physics demo\'s on the net which enable you to pull apart a virtual cow with your mouse ; and it looks creepy real.
MotorStorm is already a game which\'ll feature \'mild\' implementation of gameplay through physics ; kicking up dirt which alters the terrain which can be a means to best the other race competitors.
Personally, I think this is how PS3 will distinguish itself from XB360 ; physics gameplay at lower framerate drop \'cost\'.
The emphasis of discussion has been way too much on solely, console GPU\'s.
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I think physics play this generation will be much more groundbreaking and interesting than anything the revmote can offer or online play will see. Truly CHANGING the way a game plays while doing it will be the good thing about 2-3 years into this generation on the more innovative games. Not just Geo-Mod like Red Alert, but changing stuff like the Motorstorm dirt getting kicked up (and actually obscuring the vision of the driver and putting lowered parts and holes in the terrain, etc.) will be awesome to work around in several genres that I have been thinking about.
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There are already realtime physics demo\'s on the net which enable you to pull apart a virtual cow with your mouse ; and it looks creepy real.
MotorStorm is already a game which\'ll feature \'mild\' implementation of gameplay through physics ; kicking up dirt which alters the terrain which can be a means to best the other race competitors.
Personally, I think this is how PS3 will distinguish itself from XB360 ; physics gameplay at lower framerate drop \'cost\'.
The emphasis of discussion has been way too much on solely, console GPU\'s.
Where can I get it? I d like to try that demo.
Btw the videos you posted are very impressive.
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Sony Corporation has adopted Synopsys\' alternating aperture phase-shift mask (AA-PSM) technology to enhance manufacturability of its advanced logic chips that includes the ramp of the ‘Cell\' microprocessor that will be used in the PS3 gaming console.
"Our ability to support Sony\'s industry-leading production ramp of their advanced process nodes demonstrates our PSM technology\'s continued value in a production environment," said Anantha Sethuraman, vice president of marketing for DFM, Synopsys. "This validates Synopsys\' leadership position in providing a comprehensive DFM solution for high-yield designs."
The Cell chip is currently being ramped at Sony\'s 300mm fab in Japan on a 65nm process. A worldwide launch of the new gaming console has been delayed until November 2006, though not due to any microprocessor issues. Synopsys highlighted that the use of its AA-PSM technology is designed to improve yields at leading edge nodes.
http://www.fabtech.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1423&Itemid=2
Hope PS3 Cell will get the 65nm process...Sony could reduce costs...;)
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If they can by such means, they should.
Since it\'ll be region free, I also perceive that as an argument
for a worldwide release, including PAL.
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This is great news just from the heat stand point. Smaller chips less heat problems. It should bode well for early adopters
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New pics PS3 dev kit.
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/705/705349p1.html (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/705/705349p1.html)
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I think it\'s what they were already using at GDC...
...can\'t wait...E3 is coming...:)
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"Cell is 35x Faster Than G5," IBM Participates in Grid Computing Expo
At the ongoing "Grid World 2006" event, an expo on grid computing technologies, IBM Japan, Ltd. has presented the "Cell Broadband Engine (BE)," its microprocessor jointly developed with IBM Corp., the Sony Group and Toshiba Corp. The company demonstrated the Cell\'s performance comparisons with Apple Computer Inc.\'s "Apple PowerMac G5" microprocessor for PCs and sample applications including the Cell mounted on a blade server board.
Including floating point calculation, IBM Japan demonstrated the Cell\'s 3D video rendering speed in comparison with the G5 and showed the Cell\'s processing is about 35 times faster than the 2 GHz dual-core G5. The company also displayed a sample of its blade server to be released in the third quarter of 2006, featuring the Cell BE on its blade, although it is currently under discussion whether it will launch this blade server as a standard model for general users. "To draw the Cell\'s ability as much as possible, we need ingenuities for programming as well. At the current state, we are considering releasing the product for specific users," said a company spokesperson. The specific users are, for example, venders of servers to deliver broadband contents, medical equipment manufacturers handling high-resolution images, and meteorologic and academic experts who wish to implement large-scale science-technologic calculations.
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20060515/117070/?ST=english
just a nice reading...hope dev will take advantage of it as early as possible...
...and some are already doing :)...
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Until they don\'t see the fruits of those things (when it comes to game) ppl will remain sceptic.
I mean.. i can already almost place a huge bet on some print game magazines to be very negative on their PS3 future outlook. I know those mags all too well.
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I\'m no programmer but this seems pretty impressive :
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory has published a comparison paper on
Cell versus Opteron, Itanium & Cray X1 in scientific applications.
In it\'s current form Cell scores about 5x better than Itanium & Opteron and about on par with the Cray X1.
That is not to say that it does not need some minor modifications. Most scientific applications need 64 bit chips and the Cell is better at 32-bit work. However with some modifications, the Cell managed to wipe the flaw (sic) with the AMD Opteron, Intel Itanium2 and Cray X1 chips.
http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~samw/projects/cell/CF06.pdf (http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~samw/projects/cell/CF06.pdf)
http://theinquirer.net/?article=32006 (http://theinquirer.net/?article=32006)
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Really interesting Knotter8 ;)
and here we have interesting thoughts about the power of PS3, from Untold Legends...and listen what the producer Andy Sites said in the middle of the interview...
We finally reached a point where are PC\'s are no longer faster than our ps3... the ps3 is actually trouncing our 3,500 dollar PC\'s in our offices...and we were really excited by that..
http://media.ps3.ign.com/media/814/814614/vids_1.html
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Great :)
Only problem is that Untold legends is the least impressive PS3 game. They should exploite that power
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will they stop tryin to compare this thing to pc\'s?...at it\'s core this thing is a console,...i could care less how fast this thing is, i only thing i care about is how the games the look and perform, and at this stage anyway the games are lookin just as good as the xbox games...sheeit if you\'re so obsessed with pc\'s, break off and start another division and start makin\' pc\'s...sony and microsoft pour millions into their systems tryin to be the all in one and for what? 5 - 7 yrs down the road they will already begin to implement the specs for their new console...i don\'t mind the dvd,blu-ray playback, but all that other s**t i have a pc for....nintendo at least in this aspect are the only ones that\'s got it right as fas as creating consoles strickly for games...
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They are comparing Cell to PC processors. And you should know by now that Cell isnt a console only processor ;)
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HDMI Upgraded To Support \'Deep Color\' !
...Under the new HDMI 1.3 specification, the clock speed will be increased from 165 MHz to over 225 MHz, said HDMI president of licensing Leslie Chard. The increased bandwidth will allow support for 1080 x 60 Hz displays with 36-bit RGB color, or a 1080p display with a 90 Hz refresh rate. Technically, the specification leaves room for clock rates of up to 450 MHz, Chard said.
Sony\'s upcoming PlayStation 3 will support deep color, Chard said, and PC graphics companies like ATI and Nvidia can bake the technology fairly easily into its cards, he said. Although the "deep color" provision was added with the next-generation Blu-Ray and HD-DVD specifications in mind, no formal announcement of support has been made by either camp.
"We don\'t have a public announcement, but it\'s natural to assume as standards get big and are accepted that they may be used," Chard said.
"Anybody going to have an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray drive needs to have an HDMI output," Chard added. "Anyone who\'s claiming to have a media notebook needs to have this."
The new color depths will be consistent with the new "xvYCC" color scheme which was adopted as a standard by the International Electrotechnical Commission in January. Sony showed off a xvYCC-compliant 82-inch LCD at this year\'s CES.
The standard will also add support for Dolby HD and DTS-HD audio. The audio will be combined with a lip-sync compensation feature to synchronize the audio and visual channels -- not actively, but through the use of latency information which will will be actively communicated to the other components, Chard said. Finally, support for an HDMI mini-connector has been added, to allow digital video to be streamed from a compliant camcorder directly to a display...
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1975596,00.asp
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Cell Shrinks in 2007 !
Sony to switch to cheaper manufacturing process next year...
June 13, 2006 - Sony Computer Entertainment president Ken Kutaragi revealed today in an interview with Japan\'s Impress Watch that the PS3\'s Cell processor will make the switch to a 65nm manufacturing process in 2007. Shipments of the more efficient chip will make it out later that year.
The Cell is in production at IBM\'s Fishkill and Sony\'s Nagasaki fabrication facilities. Currently, the chip is being produced using a 90nm process. Switching to a 65nm process will reduce costs, potentially leading to a price reduction of components that use the chip...
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/712/712522p1.html
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Will the chip be just as fast?
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Will the chip be just as fast?
Yep !
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Developer Interview: Ninja Theory\'s Marco Salvi Discusses Heavenly Sword\'s High Dynamic Range Lighting
Ninja Theory\'s exotic NAO32 rendering method gets explained by one of the minds that developed it.
By Carl Bender - June 21, 2006
PSINext: As previously discussed, beyond it\'s high quality one of the primary reasons for the use of NAO32 is that it saves bandwidth in a bandwidth-hungry environment. In the future do you feel RSX will be at a disadvantage to Xenos when it comes to framebuffer effects due to the 128-bit bus and lack of eDRAM?
Marco: Not at all; in fact for many framebuffer effects I believe RSX will have an edge over Xenos. Don\'t want to go into details, but let me just point out that RSX is connected to two seperate buses, not just one.
PSINext: After speaking with your Ninja colleagues Dean and Mike on the floor of E3, I\'ve been told that Ninja Theory is presently using SPEs for tasks such as sound, physics, animation, and more. Since you\'re working on the engine, going forward what sort of performance headroom do you feel is present on Cell?
Marco: I can\'t give any numbers that would make much sense, but I\'m certain at this time most developers are barely using Cell\'s power.
We all have to learn how this machine works and how to get the best out of it. It will take time, but gamers are going to experience some truly amazing stuff.
it\'s very interesting !
http://psinext.e-mpire.com/index.php?categoryid=3&m_articles_articleid=599&PHPSESSID=784800d1964413bf17a3fe11f1c80bc2
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I heard that they are aiming for 30 FPS? I prefer 60FPS with less effects, i want to see crispy physics animation.
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Interesting opinions/speculations about the RSX...
At the following site it is revealed at at least some developers at E3 were powering their PS3 demos with PC hardware utilizing NVIDIA 7900 cards in SLI. The RSX is not officially supposed to be much more than an ordinary *singular* 7800/7900 so I find this very interesting. Basically, the only reason I would think this to be the case is if developers were told the FINAL DevKit which was NOT available at the time of E3 was going to be far more powerful than what they had at the time. If so, developers would have scrambled to get whatever hardware they can to try and make their demos look as good as possible.
An individual on the Metal Gear Solid Forums stated that a friend of his who was a newspaper reporter who attended E3 discovered some of the PS3 developers were utilizing two7950 cards in SLI and one gigabyte of total RAM. To me if this is confirmed then we have another clue that the final RSX was to be something much more than an ordinary slightly modified SINGULAR 7800/7900.
http://www.ninjatheory.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250
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AGEIA said something interesting about the PS3 a while ago.
They called the RSX GPU a "GeForce 7900+"
http://www.techzonept.com/showthread.php?t=89459
"If you look at the very high level they are very alike. Both of them are huge parallel engines, have floating point processing units, and control each internal memory. But the difference is also big. For example, Cell does internal data transfer by a ring bus (so it has limited bandwidth). On the other hand, our architecture has far higher (internal data) bandwidth.
But it\'s also true that Cell is relatively suitable architecture for physics processing. In PS3, the GPU is "GeForce 7900+" architecture, but it has Cell. So in PS3 it can do physics in a PPU-like architecture (Cell), not in GPU."
Btw, I just preordered the 60GB model. The price for now sits at 5999SEK thats ~830 USD (with 25% VAT included), you also get a free Blu-Ray movie with the console, The Da Vinci Code.
The price is OUCH but I\'m quite happy otherwise. :shy:
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Exclusive: PS3Land interviews Fantasy Lab (Now with HD trailers!)
PS3Land: Global Illumination, what is it?
Global Illumination is a method of lighting geometry in computer graphics in which the light that reaches a surface is calculated using both direct light from light sources and indirect reflecting off other surfaces. The result is more realistic and natural looking images. Global illumination complex to compute since light can come from any surface in the virtual world, and any surface can occlude (block) light.
PS3Land: What makes Global Illumination any better than the shading techniques developers are using for todays games? Are there any noticable differences?
The most noticeable difference between global illumination renders and typical lighting techniques used for games is the diffuse inter-reflections. It allows for soft, natural-looking lighting that makes images look realistic and objects really “pop” no matter what materials are rendered.
As I see it there are three alternatives to global illumination.
One approach is to use point and directional lights only and ignore inter-reflections. The result is harsh, unnatural lighting as in the Doom 3 engine.
Another approach is to use lots of area lights. This is the approach taken by Pixar in many of there earlier films and Dreamworks in the movie Shrek. The results can look very good as long as the area lights are properly shadowed. However, it requires placing a lot of lights, and area lights take a lot more computation power to use than point lights, so this technique is not used for real-time applications. Dreamworks added a bounce of indirect lighting in Shrek 2 so they did not need to place so many lights. New films, like Monster House, are using full global illumination.
A third approach is environment lighting, using environment maps or spherical harmonic lighting. Environment lighting is a natural choice for real-time rendering since its predecessor, environment mapping, has been used for years to render shiny materials in real-time. However, diffuse materials need self-shadowing or they look flat and seem to glow in all the wrong places (like in the Jimmy Neutron TV show). Calculating the shadowing (and ideally, diffuse inter-reflections) requires basically the same amount of work as global illumination and is often computed using the same techniques. Therefore, environment lighting is typically only used for real-time applications if radiance transfer information is pre-computed, which is only practical for static scenes.
Another problem with environment lighting is that it is only correct at a single point. It takes a lot of environment maps rendered at different locations (or groups of spherical harmonic coefficients computed from different locations) to properly render objects in a complex scene or game level. Note that all the environment lighting information needs to be re-computed each frame for dynamic environments.
PS3Land: How will the PS3 be able to handle something like GI?
We are well aware that conventional methods for computing global illumination can take hours for typical scenes, even on hardware as powerful as the PS3. However, our technique is extremely efficient and ideal for running on parallel computing hardware. The PS3 is plenty powerful enough to render complex scenes in real-time with global illumination using our technique.
PS3Land: Any personal comments about the Cell processor or RSX graphics Card?
I love the Cell processor. The SPUs are ideal for running our global illumination code, which can also run on the RSX. Having both Cell and RSX gives us a lot of power and flexibility.
PS3Land: Will Fantasy Lab license the Fantasy Engine or Global illumination technology to other game studios or perhaps Sony to use as a middleware program in their line up of dev tools?
We would love to offer our global illumination technology as middleware on the PS3. We are actively looking into that.
PS3Land: In relation to #8, to what extent will the global illumination go on the PS3 hardware? Would something like a high end PC or perhaps the Xbox 360 run GI?
I can say that the PS3 is the very attractive to us, because it is the most powerful hardware that the target audience for our game is likely to own.
PS3Land: Any other words you would like to add whether its about your company or the Fantasy Engine or GI or PS3?
We are very excited about the combination of the PlayStation 3 and our rendering technology. Our artists are able to create game characters and environments that match, and even exceed, their vision of what the character should look like. What we have shown so far is just the tip of the iceberg. Just wait until you see our game!
http://www.ps3land.com/article-529.php
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hot...
i even like the lighting they have been doing with madden 07 for xbox360... and if it gets better than that... wow weee
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global illumination = droooooooooooooooool :)
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I\'ll stay tuned...it\'s curious...
I can unofficially confirm that the RSX will be based off NVIDIA’s upcoming G80 technology. The latest IP has been done for quite sometime (actually 3 months); NVIDIA will be announcing details soon. Anyhow, my source is very legit…works for NVIDIA!! You don’t have to believe me…but my source is a very honorable person. Maybe not to NDA agreements...
Nerve-Damage
http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=62604
...and we know...PS3 ia amazing in any case ;) ...some games are already wonderful !
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Sounds like BS, but we\'ll see.
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and it\'s interesting...
Sony and Codemasters working on PS3 graphics middleware !!!
Everyone knows that next-gen game making has brought with it a slew of challenges and that the step from, say, PS2 to PS3 is for some more painful than that from PSOne to PS2.
Codemasters knows this better than any other development resource, having managed to pretty much wing it in the current generation. By development VP Gavin Cheshire\'s own admission, PS2 games for its leading Colin McRae series were based on repurposed PSone technology. This wasn\'t an approach possible for making the next version.
"One of the things we thought long and hard about was how we were going to exploit the next-gen cycle. One thing that Codemasters didn\'t do particularly brilliantly in the last cycle was get ready in time" admits Cheshire. "We didn\'t want to make that mistake again, so for this gen we\'ve had to restructure, plan, and gear up for what\'s coming next. It didn\'t catch us off guard, but we\'ve really had to focus our efforts."
GETTING CONNECTED
Knowing that much of future development will demand a reliance on tailored middleware solutions, Codemasters shopped around, but couldn\'t find exactly what it wanted.
Explains Chesire: “We looked at the middleware solutions we could use - we had no axe to grind, frankly, and just wanted to find the technology we could have ready for th next-gen so we weren’t left catching up in ten years’ time. We looked around at the Renderwares and the Unreals, but nothing really fulfilled our requirements – specifically for the PS3, anyway.”
So what do you do when your ideal platform is PS3? The answer is to speak to Sony. And together, Codemasters and Sony have come up with another answer: Neon.
A new next-gen engine built from scratch over the past year and a half, it’s been a significant investment – and is a new tool with an unique and
interesting backstory.
“Sony knew early on that it was going to be hard to get the very best out of the PS3 early on, so the Japan office commissioned a team in Europe to start devising new technology and tools,” says Cheshire. “We really only found out about it because a guy on that team is friends with a coder at Sony, but our guys have worked very hard on building that relationship with them. What we were able to do is exploit something that Sony was developing internally, which we were the first to see – and since then we’ve worked very closely with Sony. It’s a two-way street.”
According to Cheshire, "Sony isn\'t into exploiting" the relevant component that makes Neon work, allowing Codemasters to do so instead. Wholly-owned by Codemasters (Cheshire says 30 of the in-house programmers have been responsible for build building 80 per cent of the result), Neon will eventually power all the Codemasters in-house next-gen games - and that includes titles for the 360. Having Sony provide the springboard for the next-gen development on another platform isn\'t as unlikely as you may think, however.
"The odd thing is that we wouldn\'t have wanted to use it if it wasn\'t cross-platform," explains Cheshire. "But Sony said that was fine. Sony realises that the only way to make next-gen viable for everyone was to allow everyone to exploit the technology."
Of course, the two-way street has provided Codemasters with an invaluable glimpse into the PS3 earlier than the other third-party developers that will prove beneficial to Sony in the long-run. "We\'ve had a very good look into PS3 know how and ethics," adds Cheshire. It\'s therefore not unreasonable to think that Sony\'s playing it cool is just another of the platform holder\'s views to investing in the future of its machine - especially when you realise that the high potential for Neon to join Sony\'s tools and middleware programme could be a coup for the format holder.
GETTING DIRTY
The first game to benefit from Neon is Colin McRae Dirt, due in June 2007. About to hit its first playable milestone, the game utilises Neon for everything from shading effects, through to terrain, damage models and even simulation of real wind.
A next-gen exclusive - there will be no current gen version - Dirt\'s conception, and the part it has played in Neon\'s creation, has been lengthy.
At one point last year, when new ideas were being prototyped, Colin was potentially going to appear in a version more suited to the street racing genre popularised by EA Canada\'s Need for Speed Underground and Criterion\'s Burnout. Bu, unhappy with what was just a reaction to the market rather than what the game needed both conceptually and technically, the team put its foot on the breaks.
"We fought quite a bit for when Dirt would come out and compromised - we didn\'t want to rush it out with out the polish it needed to carry it through, and of course all our other games will use this technology.
Indeed, that\'s the key - Dirt has driven Neon which will soon drive the whole studio. While projects such as Brian Lara Cricket are curretnly managed using the engine acquired from previous developer Swordfish, the engine devised for creating racing environments will set the tone for locations in other games and set the tone for the whole studio\'s development environment. The tool, says Cheshire, "Allows us to exploit not just the racing genre, but it has been designed to exploit the huge open terrains you need for all our games."
and...Visually, from what we’ve seen so far, DIRT is looking phenomenal. As cars in the current-gen took damage, DIRT will be taking the concept even further. Cars will crumple and be able to wrap around objects, so going off the road and into a tree will severely debilitate your ride. Scraping up against a canyon wall will scratch your vehicle’s body down to the metal or carbon fiber. All of the environmental track elements, from the potholes, manholes, and bumps are all physics based. Even the trees will be modeled down to their leaves, with soft shadows and specular shading. If everything comes together as promised, DIRT could be the most beautiful rally title ever created.
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gameinformer.com%2FNR%2Frdonlyres%2F482E4C72-F620-4BB3-AAB2-2473E96146CA%2F10260%2FVWPajrallyraidreplay2.jpg&hash=60d92605cb35544c24f148edeea9e18758e84beb)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gameinformer.com%2FNR%2Frdonlyres%2F482E4C72-F620-4BB3-AAB2-2473E96146CA%2F10262%2FDirt_travis_rally.jpg&hash=aa1947ee2f046f3af80e10f4362cae2ff80eddb5)
http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200610/N06.1003.1502.05105.htm
http://www.codemasters.co.uk
Great ! :)
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SONY to present the PLAYSTATION 3 platform
SONY COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT EUROPE
A new games platform always presents new challenges and opportunities for game developers. Igor Makaruks of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe, introduces the PLAYSTATION 3 at Digital Scarborough 2006 - a new state-of-the-art entertainment platform from Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. due for launch next year. This technical presentation will provide an overview of the system architecture including the Cell processor and the new graphics processor (RSX) along with the Blu-ray storage medium. It will also include information about the new development tools and is aimed to give potential developers and new media companies an insight into PLAYSTATION 3 title development.
TALK 1 - Developing for PLAYSTATION 3 (with 30 minute Q&A Session)
CENTRAL LIBRARY (Saturday 14th October 2006: 11AM—12.30PM) - Igor Makaruks of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe and Charles Cecil of Revolution Games . Coffee & biscuits provided.
A new games platform always presents new challenges and opportunities for game developers. Igor Makaruks of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe, introduces the PLAYSTATION 3 - a new state-of-the-art entertainment platform from Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. due for launch next year. This technical presentation will provide an overview of the system architecture including the Cell processor and the new graphics processor (RSX) along with the Blu-ray storage medium. It will also include information about the new development tools and is aimed to give potential developers and new media companies an insight into PLAYSTATION 3 title development.
Igor joined the SCEE Technology Group in the summer of 2005 after completing his Computer Science Degree in Riga, Latvia. Igor\'s primary role is supporting PSP (PlayStation Portable) and PLAYSTATION 3 developers by creating graphic related sample code to improve game performance. He is also involved in consultancy and training developers throughout Europe and actively participates in public game developer conferences worldwide.
This session is aimed at individuals who are currently working in the games industry, for students from the School of Arts & New Media (The University of Hull) and for those who are interested in developing PLAYSTATION 3 games with help from Sony Computer Entertainment Europe\'s developer support programme. Over a few cups of coffee you will also have the chance to discuss and listen in on PLAYSTATION 3 games development topics with Igor Makaruks in a 30 minute Q&A session chaired by Charles Cecil of Revolution Games .
If you would like to attend please book your place via the Digital Scarborough website http://www.digitalscarborough.org. Just click on the link - \'Book Online\'.
TALK 2 - PLAYSTATION 3 Technical Overview & Graphics Demonstration
CENTRAL LIBRARY (Saturday 14th October 2006: 2PM—3PM) - Igor Makaruks of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe
Igor Makaruks of Sony Computer Entertainment Europe, introduces the PLAYSTATION 3 - a new state-of-the-art entertainment platform from Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. due for launch next year. This basic introduction will provide an overview of the PLAYSTATION 3 system architecture including the Cell processor and the new graphics processor (RSX) along with the Blu-ray storage medium.
http://www.digitalscarborough.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19
Yes ! Great chances to know everything ! :)
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Sounds like BS, but we\'ll see.
Oct. 14 and Nov 8 are here....we should wait but more and more strong rumors suggest RSX sharing similarities with the G80...we\'ll see...
You can choose to believe me or not; or even flame me more. I still like sharing info regardless of what I’m called.
Well my friend gave me a little bit more details on the RSX capabilities. He stated that a newer version of OpenEXR API format will be specifically geared towards the PS3 RSX and NVIDIA upcoming graphic cards HDR capabilities. He states there’s no GPU capable (pr?) in the consumer market that can handle true 128-bit HDR rendering, except the PS3 and NVIDIA upcoming products. Both Sony and NVIDIA have been working closely with the Lucas Firm on improving film-like effects (consoles, PC, ECT…) for the consumer market.
I always thought the latest NV47 based cards were or had 128-bit (HDR) float-ops? He states the opposite (not really!?). He also reiterates that a Sony/NVIDIA press conference is coming late this October.
Nerve-Damage
http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=62927
I understand this as his insider saying there are distinct similarities between the HDR handling of G80 & RSX & something that is UNIQUE & NEW to the GPU market. Remember people RSX does not have to be a full blown G80.. Could be a NV47 core with some G80 technology tacked on or possibly a cut down G80 core (essentially derived from NV47) chip i.e 8600 of 8800 like 7600 was of 7900 - All the tech of G80 but lesser power e.g 128bit bus instead of 300+, fewer ROPS & pipes etc.. All very possibly when you picture it like that & take into account reasoning already discussed in another thread* I created.
archy121
http://forums.e-mpire.com/showthread.php?t=59665
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The PS bug is coming back... can\'t .... resist.....
Damn. I have a feeling I\'m going to end up with a launch PS3 no matter how hard I want to sell it for money (just like I did with my 2nd PS2).
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Cell is a Monster ! And Lair is showing that.....
...I don\'t know if all of you read this interview...it\'s very interesting...
thanks to Cell we are running every single object in the game through a real-time LOD method called progressive mesh, something that makes the incredible detail was well as loads of objects on screen possible. We also have a unique and extremely flexible shading and light system, all real-time and of course all in HDR. Every light and shadow in the scene is real-time generated, thus making it possible to change the time of day dynamically while the level progresses. Nothing is pre-baked as many other games do it.
We are also quite proud of our landscape engine, which allows us the seamless transitions from high altitudes all the way to the ground. We have levels the size of the Bay Area in Lair in which you can land in any spot and have dirt and gravel detail right in front of you and all of the texturing on the landscape is done based on erosion shaders which are running in real-time on RSX. So artists can get these huge areas together in relatively short-time-frames.
Another area that is really cool on Cell is the real-time dynamics. We simulate hundreds of cloth and physics objects in the scene at any given moment, the enemies and heroes of course all are running ragdoll and physics-driven animations. The single hero dragon you ride is more complex than all objects in our prior games combined, down to little details like the flutter of the wings being dynamically driven....
and...
IGN: What are your thoughts on 1080p? You\'re rendering some stuff out at that resolution now, do you think it\'s necessary for games to be standardized as 1080p and is it doable?
Eggebrecht: First of all, we are not only rendering some part of Lair in 1080p. The whole game is in 1080p native, from front-end to all in-game bits.
We absolutely love 1080p because of the detail that you can see. When we went up from 720 to 1080 I was blown away how much more of the artwork was visible. We started out being true 720p proponents, but since switching over to true 1080p via HDMI a few months ago I can\'t go back.
Lair is not upscaling or cheating to get to 1080p, we are natively running at the full 1920x1080 progressive resolution. Earlier this year we were quite skeptical if that would be possible, but the final kits really were a revelation in terms of power. Sony delivered what they promised and after a bit of tweaking we had the game up-and running. One thing that did help us was that our engine always was heavily reliant on data streaming, so the larger frame buffer memory never was an issue. By now half of our staff has 1080p monitors, and believe me, the 720 guys are jealous.
IGN: Quick Fanboy wars question -- Could Lair be done under its current spec on the Xbox 360? If so, why go with the PlayStation 3 "only" instead of going cross-platform?
Eggebrecht: Lair in its current form couldn\'t be done on 360. We are using large amounts of Cell\'s SPUs for all of our geometry, landscape, simulations, animations, even troop AI. When we create a game, we absolutely focus on the platform it is designed around. Would we do one for 360, it would be a different game and a different engine -- most crucially perhaps though: Lair is an entirely different game without the motion control and gesture recognition since it was designed around it.
IGN: What advantage does Blu-ray afford you now? Everyone talks about how great the extra storage space is but are you actually using it for Lair?
Eggebrecht: The single level at TGS alone takes up 4 Gigabytes of data. We are using every ounce of that due to streaming of our textures. Sure you could chop them all down to tiny sizes and we would fit, but then again, it would not be the same game. In addition to all the textures and geometry, we also do have video on the disc, and all of that is in native 1080p resolution. Thanks to Blu-Ray we don\'t need to worry about that and can still fit the whole game on a single disk.
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/733/733921p4.html
:fro:
and...That fat A/V socket on the rear of the $600 model PS3 gives the home-theater fanatics at Factor 5 a funny feeling in their video cables. For one thing, it\'s letting them display Lair in cutting edge 1080p, an incredibly sharp video mode they claim won\'t take a hit on performance. For another, Lair will support 7.1 uncompressed digital surround sound. "Once you hear it for the first time in uncompressed audio, there\'s no going back," says Eggebrecht , adding the game\'s super sound in one area that most consumers won\'t own the right A/V gear to enjoy. "I hope enough people put down the cash for [a compatible receiver]," he says. \'Maybe we\'re just doing it for ourselves."
http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/action/lair/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-31136166&pid=929230
I can\'t wait !
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wow, that sounds very impressive and truly next generation....
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wow, that sounds very impressive and truly next generation....
Yep ! ...and look at this !
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg166.imageshack.us%2Fimg166%2F4214%2Fps3fightnightround31161006915tc9.jpg&hash=b5a6bfc12ed563105115c144645dbe08e7e78647)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg166.imageshack.us%2Fimg166%2F2417%2Fps3fightnightround31161006904uw0.jpg&hash=05c0c30b8a8ffcb82faf12845da93e345e4d3075)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg166.imageshack.us%2Fimg166%2F9168%2Fps3fightnightround31161006892pi7.jpg&hash=53a7c2c931d49d165daf91a1f6b4f73fb225fafc)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg166.imageshack.us%2Fimg166%2F9527%2Fps3fightnightround31161006989tw8.jpg&hash=bb540f1ca891dd6770459f908ad92501da091f0d)
(https://psx5central.com/community/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg166.imageshack.us%2Fimg166%2F2025%2Fps3fightnightround31161006956fi4.jpg&hash=c1bad95acaa5de3c6cda1eb5a354de73d3434622)
Amazing !
The next generation is coming !!! :thumb:
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^ Still, the animations looked somewhat mechanic and stilted in preview footage , same goes for the XB360 version btw. ; but it\'s just that more realistic looking graphics will accentuate any unnatural movements.
Of course, EA has never been a smooth framerate king imho...
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Cell is a Monster ! And Lair is showing that.....
...I don\'t know if all of you read this interview...it\'s very interesting...
and...
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/733/733921p4.html
:fro:
and...
http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/action/lair/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-31136166&pid=929230
I can\'t wait !
I saw none of these when I saw the latest gameplay video of the game. It looked bad :(
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I saw none of these when I saw the latest gameplay video of the game. It looked bad :(
I know this developer are very very talented and I\'m sure the final game will deliver everything they promised ! :)
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I hope so. I had lots of expectations about this game
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GDC 2007: IBM shows off real-time Cell rendering !
At the Game Developers Conference 2007, IBM displayed a Linux-based PS3 rendering of a complex – 3 million triangle – landscape in real-time and in full 1080p resolution using only software rendering techniques. Yes folks, full 1080p rendering despite the PS3\'s RSX being inaccessible under Linux.
GameTomorrow informs that IBM\'s system is set to workaround the RSX hurdle by reaching out across the network and leveraging multiple IBM QS20 blades to render in real-time with software based ray-tracing. The scalable iRT rendering is set to enable the PS3 to decompose each frame into manageable work regions and dynamically distribute them to blades or other PS3s for rendering.
Whew, okay, that\'s a whole mouthful that even we don\'t exactly understand. So here\'s a video of the GDC 2007 demo in action.
Will this eventually allow for decent Linux homebrew games and applications for the PS3? Better emulation on Linux perhaps? This blogger isn\'t exactly sure about how this Cell-based RSX side-step will ultimately impact graphics on Linux PS3, but it seems safe to say that it does look promising.
http://ps3.qj.net/GDC-2007-IBM-shows-off-real-time-Cell-rendering/pg/49/aid/85572
PIC
http://www.gametomorrow.com/minor/barry/city_1080p.jpg
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http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?type=mov&id=17745
HD: http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?type=mov&id=17744
very nice !