PSX5Central
Non Gaming Discussions => Off-Topic => Topic started by: hyper on November 12, 2005, 11:14:34 AM
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http://www.kron4.com/Global/story.asp?S=4107018&nav=5D7l
\'Reilly reacted to San Franciscans\' approval of Proposition I, which discourages military recruiters on public high school and college campuses.
He advised President George W. Bush to react by withdrawing any military protection for the city. "...If al-Qaida comes in here and blows you up, we\'re not going to do anything about it. We\'re going to say, look, every other place in America is off limits to you, except San Francisco. You want to blow up the Coit Tower? Go ahead," O\'Reilly said.
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Funny, but a pretty stupid comment. But I don\'t see why recruiters can\'t be let on to campus ultimately it\'s up to the person to choose to join not because the recruiters are there so thats pretty stupid.
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You obviously havent seen how lucrative these recruiters are. We have them everywhere at our school, everday they try to recruit me, I dont even acknowledge them and walk past.
Free t-shirts, hats, pencils. They talk about how great the military-life is, never mention the dirty part (killing and dying). They will be your best friend if you sign away your life for them.
But yes, In the end it comes down the the person- and the person knowing what he is doing.
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The recruiter at my school was a really good guy. Understood that I wasn\'t interested and even offered to help out in my college search. Meh.
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Originally posted by (e)
You obviously havent seen how lucrative these recruiters are. We have them everywhere at our school, everday they try to recruit me, I dont even acknowledge them and walk past.
Free t-shirts, hats, pencils. They talk about how great the military-life is, never mention the dirty part (killing and dying). They will be your best friend if you sign away your life for them.
But yes, In the end it comes down the the person- and the person knowing what he is doing.
Um if you are that dumb to not a. research your job or b.already know this about the military maybe you are better off not supplying to the gene pool anyways.
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i\'d rather them give me the truth than some washed-down bullshit, only to realise the truth after Im sitting in some god-forsaken country fighting for a "cause".
The world is full of idiots, sadly many of them will sign up not knowing what they are doing- and the military doesnt mind. Its easy fodder for the war-machine.
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Dude, you have a good point but it comes down to that person\'s choice, period. They may say we\'ll pay for college and do this and that.
If you don\'t ask questions or talk to people in the military other than the recruiter himself as I stated before then you yourself have put you in a bad position nobody else is to blame but yourself.
Thats what\'s wrong is all these people are over there and they don\'t understand is that they might not known there was going to be a war or they did bottom line is it\'s their job and that is what they signed up for, justified or unjustified.
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never mention the dirty part (killing and dying)
what kind of moron doesn\'t know that\'s what the military does?
who would really sign up and think they would play ping pong in the rec room all day?
you going to college after highschool?
not everyone\'s mommy and daddy can afford to pay for it
:rolleyes:
join the military and make your father proud by stop being a tree hugging fag
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Originally posted by mm
what kind of moron doesn\'t know that\'s what the military does?
who would really sign up and think they would play ping pong in the rec room all day?
:laughing:
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Originally posted by mjps21983
Dude, you have a good point but it comes down to that person\'s choice, period.
Of course its only your choice/fault. You choose to sign up for the services - fine - have fun. These military recruiters could care less if you died or not, they just want your signature.
join the military and make your father proud by stop being a tree hugging fag [/B]
Proud of what? Me going off and partcipating in senseless warfare?
Im sorry, but my family tends to value life more than the glorification of death and killing.
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Originally posted by (e)
Im sorry, but my family tends to value life more than the glorification of death and killing.
:laughing:
If that is what you think the army exist for, then you are truly a lost cause.
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Are? He is a lost cause was, is and forever will be. Recruiters have served in the military they are not some car salesman trying to sell you that Jetta at Joe\'s Car shop.
To say recruiters don\'t care you must know all of them I assume that because you make such an accusation like that.
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Read this stuff:
Military Recruitment Vans (http://www.objector.org/recruiting-vans/army.html)
Before You Enlist (http://www.objector.org/before-you-enlist.html)
Recruiters have served in the military they are not some car salesman trying to sell you that Jetta at Joe\'s Car shop.
:laughing: Not salesmen? Then how would they work? They glorify the army life, and will tell you anything you want them to.
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Oh please. If they don\'t allow recruiters into public schools then they lose federal funding. That is the law. Guess they don\'t need the money.
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Well what if they didn\'t allow recruiting a colleges???
Like I said just because someone sells you a nice looking car you gotta look at whats under the hood before you buy it, military is not for everyone and that is for a reason.
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that website looks like a 5 year old made it.
our generation has the luxury of the internet..problem? people take everything seriously..just because its a .org doesnt make it fact..sense any opinion in it? and maybe find more than 1 website to make any credibility. seeing to many of these whack ass kids with a website that \'proves\' george bush was in the devils church (whatever the name is) and they take it seriously.
"The vans are designed to recruit, not to educate."
maybe they..educate in order to recruit..makes sense..
They need recruiters..of course their going to say good things about it..if the person has half the will theyll search up what military life is..if they dont then they deserve to get "surprised" when they are getting shot at thinking "i thought i was going to do drill for nothing"...
and..bill reilly is a dumbass..too bad in order to combat the majority liberal media they have to make the one other news station uber right wing..id like to see a non-bias news show some day.
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Its the school\'s loss really. By denying military recruiters at public high schools and colleges, the federal government does not give them any money. One of the terms for recieving federal aide is that they allow recruiters at their institutions.
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Originally posted by mm
join the military and make your father proud by stop being a tree hugging fag
Have you had any military experience mm?
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yes, 2 years in the army reserves to help pay for college
my father did two terms in vietnam
his father served the queen in WW2
my son will serve his country too when he\'s old enough
my family cares more then just for themselves.
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:)
That\'s cool mm. My brother has another 4 (or 6?) years left in the Air Force. I miss him. :( He\'s stationed in the Middle East.
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my family cares more then just for themselves.
Just because we dont see the point in joining the military, doesnt mean we dont "care" for others.
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Just be happy you live where you do otherwise you\'d required to serve your country for a couple years. My father\'s served for 25 and my brother\'s about to join, me not my cup of tea.
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don\'t sugarcoat it
you\'re afraid or too lazy to server your country
it\'s ok
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Who are you to judge, you know for once in your life don\'t be an ass. I\'m not afraid to serve my country like I said I didn\'t want to do it and chose to do something else, but if I needed I\'d be ready. Besides MM you served but did you serve in a war?
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You can\'t say that serving and serving in a war are entirely different. mm just happened to be in when there was no war. I\'m sure if he was in now, he\'d gladly serve whereever he was stationed. Right mm?
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^^
He would have to fight whether he liked it or not. And yes, serving in the reserves, and fighting a war are entirely different.
Personally I would never join, and dont find any wrong in joining, but I think they are making a huge mistake by targeting "JOIN THE ARMY" to young highschool/college students.
My brother did a term in the Army, and is now a sgt. in the Marines. He is currently fighting in Fallujah.
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Originally posted by (e)
^^
He would have to fight whether he liked it or not. And yes, serving in the reserves, and fighting a war are entirely different.
Oh really? Tell that to the reservists who are fighting a war over in Iraq right now.
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?
They are fighting in a war.
mm, served in reserves, but didnt fight a war.
How much more simple can it be?
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They\'re there to protect your ass but all they\'re doing is glorifying killing? The military is a lot more than the Iraq war. There definitely is physicological harm to it but life isn\'t all fun and games.
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It is still serving your country is serving. However mm is still an ass, he doesn\'t know me or my situation so for him to call anyone out unless he personally know\'s him he\'s being a jackass.
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my thing is that i just don\'t like the way....some generals just seem like these lives mean nothing.....right before the iraq war started a general was asked about the casualty count and replied somewhere along the lines " oh yea there will be casualties,...but it will be very low"....yea i know in war there will always be casualties, but the way he put it was as if they didn\'t matter....
anyway there\'s no way i\'d join the services. i never wanted to back in tha day and i especially wouldn\'t do it now. you can expect the u.s. to be in iraq forever....i also don\'t like the fact that these guys can be led into any war at the drop of a dime. for that i give them alot of respect.
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i\'m just breaking your balls,
mjps21983
i know military isn\'t for everyone
it does change you, however
hell, ask bjorn
sweden has mandatory 2 year service for all citizens
i wish the states did, it makes men out of boys, and we\'d have a lot less pussy liberals floating around
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Originally posted by mm
sweden has mandatory 2 year service for all citizens
[/B]
heh... i guess that is their version of jury duty...:D
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I\'m glad we don\'t have obliged military service in the Netherlands anymore. Had I been born one year earlier, I would have been obliged to.
Beh, there\'s way too much tax going to expensive miltary stuff like Chinook helicopters.
Better use that tax money for the citizens.
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Originally posted by (e)
^^
He would have to fight whether he liked it or not. And yes, serving in the reserves, and fighting a war are entirely different.
Personally I would never join, and dont find any wrong in joining, but I think they are making a huge mistake by targeting "JOIN THE ARMY" to young highschool/college students.
My brother did a term in the Army, and is now a sgt. in the Marines. He is currently fighting in Fallujah.
Dude, you missed my point. I said that they ARE the same (well meant). To me, serving is serving whether you are in combat or not, you still are doing your country a duty.
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hah, but with world economy in a dip, ppl are better to help with domestic problems or anything else that can help the economy directly. No, that doesn\'t include any military stuff.
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Cool, I know what the military life is like I\'ve seen my Dad go through it and knew it wasn\'t for me. Thanks mm for clarifying that for me.
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Heh, I didn\'t need anybody to know I\'m not the military type.
I might seem silent and null for the outside, but deep in my heart i\'m ff-ing rebelious.
Military = about taking orders and a strict hierarchy. I\'m fighting hierarchies on all levels ever since i was born.
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Esquire had an interesting article on how at this point, recruiting is at an all time low. It is so low in fact, that the recruiters are cheating to get people in. Basically, giving you work arounds for any medical problems / drug habits and what not, just so they can meet their quota.
As for EVERYONE having to serve at one time or another, I think that is complete bullshit. You want freedom? Part of freedom is allowing the people to make the choice to fight or not. It doesn\'t make men out of boys. It takes people and puts them in situations they should never be in that people should not be in . Not to mention, if I had a son, I would hate the fact that the goverment was goin\' to take him and force him to fight for the country.
I have had plenty of people in my family that have been in the army all their life. Enough that I know it is not for me. Is it for them? Yes, they enjoy it. Would I? No. It has nothing to do with being a liberal, it has to do with being a lover, not a fighter!
:p
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who allowed you to have that freedom, LIC?
who will let our grandchildren have those freedoms?
the military is not all about fighting, despite what you see on TV
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The whole notion that because our ancestors fought, then we should is bullcrap. Then again, if we ever had a draft,etc, I would just hop and skip over to Canada. It\'s not like I personally like this country to begin with. One of the few and only reasons I have never moved is because of family. \'Till then, I will just be like most American\'s, complain about the country and rape it of what benefits it does offer...Hey, at least I\'m honest!
-shrugs-
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so you expect freedoms from your country without having to help?
why don\'t you just stop paying taxes
but if you can admit to being a hypocrite, more respect to you.
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The whole notion that because our ancestors fought, then we should is bullcrap. Then again, if we ever had a draft,etc, I would just hop and skip over to Canada. It\'s not like I personally like this country to begin with. One of the few and only reasons I have never moved is because of family. \'Till then, I will just be like most American\'s, complain about the country and rape it of what benefits it does offer...Hey, at least I\'m honest!
Move to Canada then.
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Originally posted by mm
so you expect freedoms from your country without having to help?
why don\'t you just stop paying taxes
but if you can admit to being a hypocrite, more respect to you.
I have no problem saying that I am a hypocrite. I am quite comfortable with it. Unlike most American\'s who whine about the system and how it has done nothing for them and what not. I will freely admit that yes, the system is fucked, but it does provide some benefits and I have no problem with using those benefits and not giving anything back in return . And yes, if I could quit paying taxes and get away with it, I would.
Originally posted by EviscerationX
Move to Canada then.
Read the post, jackass. It states one reason I have never moved to Canada. If you could read, you would see that reason.
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so you expect freedoms from your country without having to help?
Yes.
Why not let the people that want to join, join, and the people who dont, dont. Obviously the people who want to join are willing to help out so we dont have to.
I completely agree with what LIC is saying : I will freely admit that yes, the system is fucked, but it does provide some benefits and I have no problem with using those benefits and not giving anything back in return .
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Oh god no, he agree\'s with me. Any point I had is gone!
;)
Seriously tho\', I think part of the problem is as a culture we all want to point fingers and not admit that at the same time, most of us are complete hypocrites.
My name is "Living-In-Clip" and not only am a hypocrite, I also live for double standards.
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how did we get from "servings one\'s country" to "the system is fucked"
Why not let the people that want to join, join, and the people who dont, dont.
what kind of mindless drone are you?
Obviously the people who want to join are willing to help out so we dont have to.
so you\'re just leeching off the people who arent afraid to serve thier country?
why not have 8 kids and live off welfare?
you are the reason "the system is fucked", by taking and taking without even considering putting anything back in
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To LIC and (e):
You seem to draw some perverted sense of pride from the self-awareness of your hypocrisy. Not wanting to serve the military is perfectly fine. That you feel no remorse about leeching off others is not. Willingly doing nothing to fix the system does not mean you are somwhow wiser than those who endeavor in this "useless effort."
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I am the reason the system is fucked?
The military is 100% volunteer, and me choosing not to volunteer is the cause of our problems?
:rolleyes:
so you\'re just leeching off the people who arent afraid to serve thier country?
Unless you expect EVERY American citizen to join the military, dont single me out for wrongdoing.
The reason they volunteer is so everyone doesnt have to. Thats why we give them so much respect.
Originally posted by hyper
To LIC and (e): ...
That you feel no remorse about leeching off others is not.
Why would I should I feel remorse? You do realise they are fighting for us.
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yeah, but you\'re not part of "us"
your moral indignance seperates you from the average american.
i certainly didnt join the military to help protect people like you that look down your nose at us and say "better you than me"
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Originally posted by hyper
To LIC and (e):
You seem to draw some perverted sense of pride from the self-awareness of your hypocrisy. Not wanting to serve the military is perfectly fine. That you feel no remorse about leeching off others is not. Willingly doing nothing to fix the system does not mean you are somwhow wiser than those who endeavor in this "useless effort."
One person is not going to change the system. It is a useless effort no matter what, it is one I choose not take part in .
Originally posted by mm
yeah, but you\'re not part of "us"
your moral indignance seperates you from the average american.
i certainly didnt join the military to help protect people like you that look down your nose at us and say "better you than me"
Your reasons for joining the military are your own reasons. Whatever they may be, they are your own. They don\'t represent or speak for anyone else.
And when I talk about the system being fucked, I not only speak about military - but the whole system in general. For example and I\'m sure I\'ll take slack over this, let me give you an experience.
I am about to have two kids. My fiance and I both work and make a decent living. We still however wanted to take advtanage of the WIC program - something we both pay for every week with our tax money. Guess what? We couldn\'t. Why? Because we make 1K to much per yer! Do you know who can take advantage of WIC? My cousin who has two kids, by two different guys and has never held a stable job, therefor never really added anything TAX wise to these programs. It\'s nonsense.
Back to the topic of military - let me clarify something. I have great respect for those who do choose to do that with their life. It takes balls and is a brave thing to do. To risk your life at some point or another due to your country and belief and even if you don\'t go to war, you are dedicating a large portion of your life to that cause. Kudos to you. I however do not ever want to take part in it, due to the fact I don\'t believe in those value\'s. I don\'t believe in what this country is selling us as a society.
so you\'re just leeching off the people who arent afraid to serve thier country?
why not have 8 kids and live off welfare?
you are the reason "the system is fucked", by taking and taking without even considering putting anything back in
And this is what I am talking about. We have so many people taking and not putting anything back in - that it is sad. So why should I dedicate my life to help this country and those people? You made a comment about quit paying taxes, well guess what? After my experience with the WIC program, if I could quit, I would. It\'s nonsense. While you may get personal gratification out of joining the military, in the large scope, you have put something back in, but it didn\'t make a difference. It doesn\'t change people\'s minds like (E). And if you die in war, you are just another number. While some view that number as an honorable death, I view it as a statistic. It\'s not one I want to be.
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you have jobs, WIC isnt there for you
it caters to the lazy
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Originally posted by mm
you have jobs, WIC isnt there for you
it caters to the lazy
That isn\'t true at all and it shows how narrow minded you are. Formula is expensive and if us working people are paying the taxes for the program - why can\'t we use it ? It is insane.
What you are saying is..
Work - pay taxes, get nothing in return.
Don\'t work - do nothing for the system, get all these nice programs to help you in life.
That is why this system is fucked.
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Originally posted by Living-In-Clip
One person is not going to change the system. It is a useless effort no matter what, it is one I choose not take part in.
Conversely then, if everyone did nothing thinking that someone else will, would the system ever be fixed? The impetus for positive change has always come from the collective contributions of individuals. What you do does make a difference, regardless of how small a difference it might be.
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The system never will be fixed.
Fuck it.
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fascist!
i bet you don\'t even vote
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WHo cares. He\'s an eskimo.
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Did you know eskimo means "eater of raw meat"?
Isnt that sexy!
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Well I\'m glad that the Dutch ppl don\'t have to fight for \'freedom\' nor does any other country has to fight for the Netherlands.
The rule is simple and worlwide :
NO WAR = FREEDOM
There is NO denying that statement.
The Netherlands is NOT at war with any other country or faction, hence this so called ahhum :laughing: \'freedom\' is something established by Dutch domestic and European Union laws.
The Dutch army consist of career soldiers and volunteers. These ppl chose to do that. The military is there IN CASE of war and conflict.
( by law, Dutch government can call upon all Dutch men, capable, IF, the country would indeed be attacked by war. )
Not joining the army is by NO MEANS a disservice to your country. In most cases the same ppl who didn\'t join the army make themselves way more usefull to society and thus freedom.
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The dutch were the #1 slave traders, therefore they are responsible for the race issues in the usa.
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NO WAR = FREEDOM
ignorance is truly bliss
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No true. Besides, what does that have to do with the topic ? Zero. (if the Africans would have come to America themselves, by free will, would that have ensured a race issue-less USA - i don\'t believe that. Instead, \'thank\' the 3K\'s for that)
C\'mon ! No need for ff-ing mudslinging.
My point was that Holland is not at war and indeed it\'s been a good trader of good goods for centuries.
Ranting stuff like that, explicitly blaming things outside the USA for problems in the USA, puts the USA itself towards the isolated status it\'s heading.
Don\'t let that become a vicious circle.
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Originally posted by mm
ignorance is truly bliss
By \'WAR\' i mean, a situation where things have to be established by means of force, military force.
If that is not the case, then you have a good basis for freedom. Freedom is indeed something that should not be taken for granted and it\'s interpretable in many ways.
That\'s why our Dutch freedom is built upon a Dutch democracy, Dutch society and a strong voice within building the European Union.
Show me this supposedly immediate threat of \'outside\' evil force which supposedly endangers this freedom ?
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I know of not too many freedoms that were not fought for. Europe has just been one big battle ground for the past 2500 years - minimum (tribes there didn\'t have much of historical records until the Romans wrote about them).
About the only "nation" that went without wars was the island of Hawaii. So isolated, they lived in peace for almost 800 years until another Tahitian tribe found it.
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Ok, so much for history class.
Most/alot of countries now have an established democracy from which \'freedom\' (of speech, religion, etc) is the achievement.
This proud achievement is in no way helped by military means. Tax money and the efforts of young ppl shouldn\'t go to the military.
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Originally posted by Knotter8
Ok, so much for history class.
Most/alot of countries now have an established democracy from which \'freedom\' (of speech, religion, etc) is the achievement.
This proud achievement is in no way helped by military means. Tax money and the efforts of young ppl shouldn\'t go to the military.
Persecution caused many people to leave Europe so they could worship they way they wanted to. The Mayflower is an excellent example. Also, the Menonites and Amish (I think from your country) left Europe and established in America. It may not have been war....that led to freedom of speech, but there was some things just as bad.
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Are the Amish > Dutch society or vice versa ? I don\'t think so.
So, i am still of opinion that America would do better at strengthening it\'s society and freedoms by other means than military recruitment, to fight some kind of \'war\'.
Afterall, recruitment is the main topic of this thread, right ?
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The theme has changed to "cost of freedom".
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See, that\'s the fallicious reasoning, right there.
It\'s not about \'cost\'. That\'s thinking in negative terms.
Freedom is a collaborative effort ; in all ways except for military use of force.
If a country takes the defensive, military way of doing things ; yeah, that only \'cost\'s both the nation and families who form that nation, not forgetting the families who get duped, outside of that nation. Think about the cost of lives and tax money such a military forces absorbes. That is so wastefull imo.
The military as a workforce, that in itself is legit ; and then I\'m talking purely about the ppl who really make the individual decision to become a career military.
However, pro active military recruitment is imho taking things way too far.
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I see. But....
I often wonder how the world would be if the US was to become an isolationist country again. Israel would be over run. Middle East could possibly gain military advantage over Europe if they were to unite. USSR would still have its satellite states....China would have its way with its neighbors. Particularly Japan, who relies on the US for military defense. There would be only one Korea....a communist one.
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That\'s paranoid !
Sorry, but none of those things are gonna happen if the USA is less active by military force in foreign countries.
Worldwide stability is however endangered by deploying military force.
Now, I know the Middle Eastern situation is anything but easy and peacefull, but applying more force onto it is like throwing oil on a fire.
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oh, we have an expert on world politics here!
please let us know the perfect solution, thanks
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Sorry, mm, but nobody\'s perfect and neither am i.
I\'m just a debater with an opinion. That opinion is that imho it would do the USA better if it shows it\'s youth alternative ways to establish this worlwide freedom, instead of military means.
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War 4 teh win!
The world is a much safer place now that we\'ve declared war on terror and alienated most of the Islamic part of the world.
Let\'s all be scared of a faceless enemy. Let\'s all be obidient and do what the people with power want us to do. Let\'s not question their motives and their actions. Let\'s just call it \'the honorable thing to do\'. And anyone who disagrees is a dirty un-american commie.
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now your talking!
oh and thank god the \'faceless enemy\', AKA \'the nazi\'s were alienated by the US powers that be, right euro\'s?
good thing we didn\'t just stay safe within our our borders and teach our children to hug a tree and perform random acts of kindness.
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Originally posted by Knotter8
Sorry, but none of those things are gonna happen if the USA is less active by military force in foreign countries.
Anyone else wanna bet China would be at war with Japan if we bailed? They want some fxcking payback!
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wave goodbye to south korea too!
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Taiwan would have been gone 20 years ago as well. China is only holding back coz of the US military presence.
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Originally posted by Knotter8
However, pro active military recruitment is imho taking things way too far.
That type of thinking made the Netherlands a Rest Stop for the Third Reich on the Autobahn to France.
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Originally posted by GigaShadow
That type of thinking made the Netherlands a Rest Stop for the Third Reich on the Autobahn to France.
Yeah, so ? The bad guys were still the nazi\'s.
Also, you guys shouldn\'t mistake my arguments as arguments against the USA.
I mean, wouldn\'t alot of American tax payers and families be waaaaay more happy if all nations would find a non military way of starting a problem solving process instead of this ongoing tour de force which claims lotsa money and lives/injuries/traumas ?
I assume we all agree on that ?
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nope
it\'s a necessary evil
always has been, always will be
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Yes history has this way of repeating itself. You Euros should have known this by now.
Even if there\'s no WWIII in a hundred years, it\'s because we\'ve carried a big stick.
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Sigh....
Maybe history is repeating itself becuz this is a vicious cycle ?
Until now ppl have ignored a 3rd option...
Imho we should strive for a win/win solution instead of the old win/loose which indeed is the ever repeating cycle of a standoff by means of force.
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The problem is man\'s desire to conquer and control, to gain more power. Saddam did it with Kuwait, NKorea over SKorea, Japan over China, Germany over Europe...
Nations will always try to gain more power, that\'s inevitable. You can try to dream a world where people from foreign nations will always get along but it will never happen. Try talking Palestine and every other mid-eastern country into forgetting about Israel.
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there is no third option
anything else is utopia, and foolish
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Originally posted by Knotter8
Sigh....
Maybe history is repeating itself becuz this is a vicious cycle ?
Until now ppl have ignored a 3rd option.
i agree....no one has to look further than what\'s goin on in iraq to see that it\'s a huge mistake.....it\'s all water under the bridge now, but you don\'t even here anything of wmd\'s that was supposedly in iraq....the argument you\'ll get from supporter\'s of the war will always be..."well he was a bad guy anyway and he needed to go"..:rolleyes:...yea he and a hundred other dictators all over the world that the u.s. or "bush" has seemed to have ignored....
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we got the wmd
he\'s on trial right now for crimes against humanity (which aren\'t continuing if you didn\'t notice)
anyone on a national level we missed?
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Perhaps Europeans better start learning to speak Chinese. Japan is toast.
China to demand Arms technology to pay down our deficit.
WASHINGTON -- In the corridors of the Pentagon and Congress, and in the secretive recesses of the People\'s Liberation Army in China, hard-liners in each country are highlighting the potential threat posed by the other side to enlist support for a major new buildup of conventional arms, according to diplomats and military and intelligence analysts.
As President Bush prepares for his state visit to Beijing this week, tensions between the two defense establishments bubble just beneath the surface of diplomatic and economic cooperation.
In computer war games, American warships face off against an armada modeled on China\'s advancing naval fleet. The American Shipbuilding Association, a powerful industry group lobbying for a larger Navy, posts what it calls an alert on its website: \'\'China\'s Navy will overtake US fleet by 2015."
Chinese paratroopers, meanwhile, storm the beaches of an imaginary country in a training exercise that looks a lot like an invasion of neighboring Taiwan. And hundreds of Chinese computer analysts routinely hack their way into the US Department of Defense, and have successfully penetrated hundreds of networks and stolen large amounts of data.
Responding to every move with a countermove, both sides are raising the risk of serious miscalculation, China scholars and leading American defense specialists warn. Others go even further, suggesting that military hawks -- including mainstream politicians -- are raising the possibility of a future conflict between the United States and China to justify buying new weapons and maintaining large standing armies and navies.
\'\'It is a very dangerous relationship that has to be managed carefully," said Kurt Campbell, a former deputy assistant secretary of defense for Asia and now the Henry A. Kissinger Chair in National Security at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. \'\'This could spin out of control."
Yet for all the alarm about China\'s military buildup, China is still spending less than one-quarter of what the United States spends annually. That is causing some analysts to warn that the real danger now is that the United States is overreacting to the \'\'China threat."
\'\'Some in the US armed forces have rediscovered the Chinese threat as a way to keep the status quo," said Loren Thompson, chief executive officer of the Lexington Institute in Arlington, Va., a conservative think tank. He noted that US officials increasingly invoke the Chinese military to justify Cold War-style weapon systems including missile defense systems, destroyers, submarines, and fighter aircraft.
Over the past five years, the military budget of China has more than doubled; it\'s now about $90 billion a year. China spends more on its army, navy, and air force than any other Asian nation, and is pushing an ambitious modernization program and seeking sophisticated weapons systems to project its influence overseas.
From Taiwan to Tokyo to Washington, China watchers see this increasingly muscular Chinese military -- funded by the robust growth of the Chinese economy -- as a force to be reckoned with in East Asia and beyond. And some view it with outright alarm.
\'\'What I am worried about is we are going to end up facing a communist military backed by a capitalist industrial base of enormous power," Representative Duncan Hunter of California, Republican chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, remarked last year.
A new book by Constantine Menges, a former CIA officer and security adviser to President Reagan, maintains that Beijing sees America as its \'\'main enemy." The book, titled \'\'China: The Gathering Threat," accuses China of stealing the designs of US nuclear warheads and other military secrets. He warns that China could kill 100 million Americans in a nuclear strike.
One of the primary reasons for the growing mistrust is the still-closed nature of the communist regime in China, according to US officials. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said during a recent visit that Beijing is sending \'\'mixed signals" about its intentions in Asia. China says it has peaceful intentions, but, according to Pentagon assessments, appears bent on being able to retake Taiwan by force and to use its military to reshape the Asia-Pacific region.
Bellicose statements by Chinese militarists about Taiwan and the United States add to the rhetorical heat. General Zhu Chenghu, dean of China\'s National Defense University, said earlier this year that if Washington interfered militarily in the Taiwan issue, Beijing could launch nuclear missiles on \'\'hundreds" of US cities.
The available data suggest that Beijing is indeed in the midst of a major military modernization.
According to a recent Pentagon report to Congress, China will soon be able to mount an effective attack to recapture Taiwan, which broke away from the mainland in 1949. The report predicted that China will soon have enough ships, submarines, missiles, and other armaments to blockade Taiwan, limiting the ability of the US Navy to protect the island. China now has as many as 730 short-range ballistic missiles positioned opposite Taiwan, up from 500 reported last year.
China\'s own internal publications outline its goals: \'\'A major strategic task of the Communist Party of China in exercising state power is to secure a coordinated development of national defense and the economy, and to build modernized, regularized, and revolutionary armed forces to keep the country safe," according to a US government translation of China\'s 2004 annual military \'\'white paper."
That goal has led China to \'\'give priority" to building a modern navy, air force, and artillery \'\'to strengthen the capabilities for winning both command of the sea and command of the air, and conducting strategic counterstrikes," the Chinese plan says.
There are also signs, according to the Pentagon report, that China\'s military is looking beyond Taiwan, including the introduction of new mobile, long-range missiles that could hit targets around the world with nuclear warheads.
\'\'They are building an amazing number of ships and are doing things with ballistic missiles which are very impressive," said retired Rear Admiral Eric A. McVadon, former US military attache in Beijing. \'\'The question is can they pull this all together. Can they find US forces and attack them?"
China is searching far and wide for the technologies it needs, including from Russia, Israel, and Europe, and is securing access to new military hardware like never before. New trade agreements and friendlier ties have helped the Chinese defense industry acquire state-of-the-art warships, submarines, and communications systems, and improve its own products.
Beijing improved its government-run defense industries in the mid-1990s. As a result, it is beginning to narrow the technology gap with the West in some key capabilities.
China has also placed new emphasis on people. It is steadily doing away with its conscript military -- young Chinese men forced into military service -- by recruiting volunteers, just as the United States started doing three decades ago.
China is also investing greater resources in top-rate training and education programs, realizing that if its troops do not possess the right skills, its new weapons cannot be properly utilized, according to the Pentagon\'s recent report on China.
US military and intelligence organizations are scrambling to learn not only what the Chinese military is doing, but also what its goals are. \'\'We really need a better grip on that," Murray Scot Tanner, a China specialist at the government-funded Rand Corporation, said of Beijing\'s intentions. \'\'Otherwise there is a vacuum [that can be] used to think the worst."
But some specialists argue there is reason to believe that China\'s goals are to use the security of its new military strength to fuel its integration into the global community. Some government analysts and private specialists say the recent rhetoric used by some Bush administration officials and China hawks in Congress does not fully account for this possibility.
What\'s more, China probably wants to avoid Washington\'s encroachment into its traditional areas of influence, such as a recent US-Vietnam defense pact, which it considers threatening to its historic sphere of influence. Much of China\'s military modernization is aimed at maintaining what it sees as regional stability, in this view.